← The School of Greatness
The School of Greatness
3 Mindset Shifts To Completely Transform Your Life & Relationships
01:22:14
The School of Greatness is proud to celebrate the start of Black History Month and showcase powerful voices, as Eric Thomas, Bozoma Saint John, and Stephan Speaks share transformative insights about life, purpose, and relationships. Eric Thomas reveals how taking ownership of your life's narrative can unlock unprecedented growth, while Bozoma Saint John discusses embracing life's magic over logic. Relationship expert Stephan Speaks rounds out the episode with profound insights on authentic connections, exploring why "safe" choices in relationships often lead to unfulfillment, and what it truly takes to attract a meaningful partnership. Through raw vulnerability and powerful storytelling, these thought leaders explore how past traumas can become catalysts for greatness, why living with urgency doesn't mean rushing through life, and how to build lasting, fulfilling relationships.
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- [00:00]
Lewis Howes
I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy and if you are looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life. But you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant. Then make sure to go to make moneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment. Moving forward, we have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to this episode on the School of Greatness Nerds when it comes to finding.
- [00:42]
NerdWallet
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- [02:07]
Eric Thomas
Do.
- [02:07]
Lewis Howes
You think anyone can have a beautiful, amazing life if they live in a blaming mindset?
- [02:15]
Eric Thomas
No. No. You know why? Because what I didn't realize as a young adult is that when you say it's somebody else, whether you mean to do it or not, you give them the keys to your life.
- [02:24]
Lewis Howes
You give them power over you.
- [02:26]
Eric Thomas
They got your whole life in their hand because you said it. You said it. They didn't do this. And because they didn't, they got the keys. Now I'll be honest the reason why we don't want to take the keys because we got to drive. We got to drive. And I told you today, I was like, I got too much to do. I normally drive. I'm like, I got too much to do. And it felt good to be in the car. Driven.
- [02:45]
Unknown
It felt good.
- [02:46]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [02:47]
Eric Thomas
Like I'm on the phone talking to my wife. We having worship, doing our thing, making a couple of business calls. Like, I don't have the responsibility of.
- [02:53]
Lewis Howes
The traffic paying attention.
- [02:55]
Eric Thomas
I gotta pay attention. I think he moved over and got. I was like, why is he stopping in the middle of. But it was. A truck was coming, so he had to move over. I didn't know what was going on because it was the first time in my life that I wasn't really, like, responsible because I normally drive. And that's why people don't want to drive in their lives. They don't want to be responsible. It's so much easier to say, my life is messed up because you did this and you did that. Once you take the keys, now you got to go. Anything. But I'm going to tell you this. This is why I like it. While it's more responsibility, it's more freedom, it's more independence, it's more control opportunities. They limit it with the limitless when you take the keys. And so I took the keys in my life and said, ma, thanks, dad. Thanks for not being there for me. You gave me a dog. You gave me a passion. You gave me resilience. You taught me how to make it when the very thing that's supposed to be there for you isn't there for you. And I tell people what I want. Some kid asked me the other day, he's like, man, wouldn't you say your son is lucky because you're in his life and his mom is in his life? I said, yes and no. I said, yes, he's blessed to have his mom and dad, but he ain't got that dog.
- [04:06]
Lewis Howes
He doesn't have the hunger.
- [04:07]
Eric Thomas
He ain't got. Oh, man, my son is a great kid, but he doesn't have the drive. He ain't got the same drive I got. And that drive came without that. Some stuff that I lack. That stuff came from lack. And so I say to anybody you got. You gotta understand, it could go either way. But when you take the. You take the. It's like I walk into a school and I ask, how many of y'all 50 kids? How many kids in here? A thousand kids. How many of your dads want in your life was not living in a house. 90% raised their hand, and guess what? I automatically can relate to them. That's the je ne sais quoi that my daddy wasn't there. That's the it factor. If my father had been there, I might not be able to go in here and relate with my videos and go viral. People like, okay, maybe if I just had Eric voice or if I just scream and I just look at it. Yeah, yeah, bro. That's not what it is. It's when I speak, you hear it. Because I've been through what you've been through, and so you recognize that voice. You recognize the pain, you recognize the struggle, but you recognize I overcame it. And that's why you, like, I want to rock with this dude. Because this one ain't some kind of way. Eric ain't the one that's making us feel like, oh, it's okay that you went through this, and it's okay that this. And it's okay if you don't want to grow, and it's okay if you don't want. No. What you hear from me is a coach that's saying, jordan, you got six rings in you, but you got to stop playing this way, and you got to start playing this way. Kobe, you got great, but you got to do it this way. Serena, you got to Venus, you got that. Richard Williams is saying, he's not out there. Just good job. He's teaching, training, but he's also correcting. And so for me, they hear my voice. I'm not letting you get away with murder, because greatness is in you. The greatness is in you. And now it's time to go to school. It's time to go to work and bring that greatness out of you. So just anybody, anybody could be successful. But as long as you're playing the blame game, you have. You have given permission the license, registration, the keys. You give it all over to somebody else. And the day you take it is the day that you can start deciding which direction you want to go.
- [06:16]
Lewis Howes
Wow. So it sounds like, step one, take the keys back to your life.
- [06:20]
Eric Thomas
Take the keys back.
- [06:22]
Lewis Howes
What would steps two and three be for setting people up for their ultimate life with that beginning process? Is it? Is it get clear on a goal. Is it Start with motivation. Start with discipline. Like, change your habits. What would the next couple steps be to set up the mindset for success?
- [06:38]
Eric Thomas
I would say step two, and I don't know why they don't teach this in school. I be your first best friend, you know, like, get to know you. We're so busy wanting to be in a community that we don't realize we are a community. Right? And look, I'm not trying to be deep. You know, people could. You know, you believe this. You don't believe in this. But what I was taught, you know, in school, especially Catholic school, it seemed like Adam was by himself first. It doesn't seem like it was like somebody else. It's like Adam was first and then whatever happened after that. So the first man was by himself. And I think that's important for those of us who study that. Why? Because all of us think we have to have somebody, to be somebody. And. And this guy started on his. He started his journey on his own before he connected with somebody. He. Whatever, he knew his purpose, you know, he walked in his confidence, he walked his. And a lot of us are going, I hear people say all the time, well, I'm not doing good. Like, why not? I don't have nobody. I'm not in a relationship. I'm saying, you're telling me no. Listen to me very closely. Do you think for one minute that getting in a relationship with somebody, it can't be the key? Because so many people have gotten in relationships and gotten out of it, so that. That can't be the key. Now two healthy people, not perfect, but two healthy people coming together. Oh, no, that's different.
- [07:58]
Lewis Howes
It's expansive.
- [07:59]
Eric Thomas
But guess what has to happen.
- [08:01]
Lewis Howes
You gotta be healthy with you.
- [08:03]
Eric Thomas
You can be with them. So we even messing each other up when we have two dysfunctional people trying to connect with each other, because we think two functional people gonna come together and make each other happy, it's not gonna work. So I just think the first step after the first step is you gotta figure out who you are and love you and feel good about you and show up in the ring you and not care what nobo about you. And that's why this relationship has worked so well for me over the years. Because when we're together, it's never been a thing of e why you do that, or e why you do that, or e why you do that. It's always been like, e, you have a unique set of skills that make you great. You have a unique set. And so we've always focused on what's our unique skills and what do you know that I don't know and how can you help me get to. And so a lot of these young kids are joining things they shouldn't join and being with people because they think their happiness is going to come from being with somebody else. And I just think if you, if you be. Eagles aren't trying to. They just are eating. They're not trying. Lions aren't. What do you think about me? What do you think about my roar? You think I'm too loud when I roar? They're not concerned. And so I think step two, figure out who you are, love you. And step three, figure out your North Star and wake up every single day going after your North Star. Because when you have a North Star, you know, and the people that you love and you spend time with have a North Star, have a purpose. And look, that purpose might be. We both have people whose purposes are help us with our purpose.
- [09:35]
Lewis Howes
Yes.
- [09:35]
Eric Thomas
They don't necessarily have a individual purpose. Like they felt like they were called to help us with, to serve our mission.
- [09:42]
Unknown
That's it.
- [09:42]
Eric Thomas
So we need the North Star so they can know what their North Star is. So. So that would be my third one. It's like, you gotta figure out what makes you happy. And again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with first time I did a behind the scenes coming in here just because I was like, to my Patreon community, like, yo, y'all need to understand where I am and what's going on. But I don't. If you follow me on Instagram or TikTok, wherever I'm on, you don't see behind the scenes. I think that's a phenomenal tool to show other people what. But my wife is private. So for us, that does not work. She does not want to be seen in the lala. She doesn't want to be in Dubai and stop and go, let's take a. Let's document what we're doing. She doesn't like that. So for some people it works. But I don't have to do that to still find a space, Right? There's some people, they do tours, right? I don't do tours. That's not my thing. I used to do them, I don't do them now. There's some people that write books, some people don't write books. Like, it doesn't matter. But what matters is you have to find a thing that wakes you up at 3:00 or 6:00 or 10:00. Like, you gotta find the thing that brings the life out of you, the joy out of you, the happiness out of you. And you can't do that following somebody else's North Star. So my last one would be man, Figure out what you was put on this earth to do. And I mean every single chance you have to do it, do it. And when you're not doing it, enjoy your life. My son was like, damn, I'm tired. I said, you tired? You burnt out for what? Look at your mom and dad. You work for the family company. What are you doing? Well, I've been up the last six days working 10, 12. I said, for what? What would you be doing that for? Like, why wouldn't you take advantage of the. He said, what should I be doing? I said, you should figure out what it is you do. He's a designer, right? You should be designing clothes Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, whenever, five, six hours a day. And then Saturday, Sunday or Friday, Saturday, because of your family, you should get a trip somewhere and go spend it with a friend. You should go see the. You should go to Italy. You should go to Rome, son. You should go to South Africa, son. You should go to the Gold coast in Australia, son. What are you. Like, you should. What are you doing? Like, you should work, but a part of work also is, where's your play? You should play. We worked hard so you could be balanced. So don't be like us. We grew up in a working class home. We grew up in Detroit. We grew up blue collar. You're not blue collar. So go enjoy your life. Be balanced. So I'm not just saying find your North Star in terms of what you've been called to do for others, but there should be a healthy amount of time that you spend enjoying your life and enjoying a little time that you have here. Because we both know we won't be doing this podcast 100 years from now. Sure, we don't know how much longer we have, but. But I won't be 154, sitting down, talking. So however much time I have left, we. I need to work hard and I need to enjoy that time.
- [12:41]
Lewis Howes
Absolutely.
- [12:41]
Eric Thomas
Yeah.
- [12:42]
Lewis Howes
Those are beautiful, man. I've heard you talk about a concept I want to share in a second, but I feel like there's a group of people we've been talking to, you've been talking to, that are the people that have maybe don't have the opportunities they want, they don't have the life they want. They feel like people are holding them down. That's one group. Then there's another group of people, which I feel like is a majority of people that have a good life. It's okay, it's good. But they don't. They're not living a great life for Themselves, maybe they got a good job and they're pretty healthy kind of decent relationships. But something. There's, like, something missing. I think if you can. If that resonates with anyone listening or watching, comment below.
- [13:22]
NerdWallet
Or leave a.
- [13:22]
Lewis Howes
Like, if you feel like, yeah, my life is good, but I feel like something's off. You have this great concept called creating a mental rock bottom to push yourself towards your goals. Can you share more about kind of some practical steps of creating your own mental rock bottom so that you can go to the next level in your life?
- [13:42]
Eric Thomas
Okay, I want to use the term, though, that you use and you say create. And I just think so many of us have stepped into careers. That group, we have worshiped careers more than we worship create. And so the first thing I would say to that group is, what would life look like if you did it on your terms? Because right now, you're really not doing on your terms. What you've done is say, yo, if I want to survive, if I want to strive, this is what I have to do. And you have allowed people to tell you, okay, you need to be an engineer or you need to be a. And you need to move it. So you've done a phenomenal job. And being obedient, you've done a phenomenal job in complying.
- [14:22]
Lewis Howes
Yes.
- [14:22]
Eric Thomas
Like, you've done a phenomenal job. You follow the rules.
- [14:25]
Lewis Howes
Yes.
- [14:25]
Eric Thomas
Congratulations. You know what I'm saying? Like, you didn't rob a bank. You know what I'm saying? Like, you haven't done anything illegal. You did exactly what a good child should do. And I have a daughter that I have to get on her sometimes because she's that child that's like, yo, dad, what do you guys want me to do? She's obedient.
- [14:41]
Lewis Howes
She's obedient.
- [14:42]
Eric Thomas
I said, do me a favor. Don't always be obedient. Like, you need to sit down and ask yourself if you weren't thinking about the family's name, if you didn't, if Eric Thomas et The hip hop preacher was not your father, what would you be doing? What would you be doing if you didn't have to worry about honoring the dynasty? And you do a phenomenal job of honoring this dynasty. I'm not saying anything. Went to school, handled your business. You've never been in trouble before. We've never had to spend money doing anything. You've been a phenomenal child. But what would you do if you live life on your terms and you were able to go where you want to do? And so that's the first thing I would ask them to do. I want you to think about your life instead of the life. Because that's what you've been thinking about, the life. Now think about your life. And I want you to start putting it everywhere. Now, the next thing I want you to do is I want you to know that if you have the ability, like, I never forget. C.J. was like, okay, E, you know what you missing? That. The big boy. All the big boy speakers. You know what you missing? I was like, no. He was like the New York Times bestseller. Now, I'm not telling you gotta do it, but I'm saying that's what's missing.
- [15:46]
Lewis Howes
That's one of the things. You got it.
- [15:50]
NerdWallet
You got it.
- [15:51]
Eric Thomas
So he was like, first of all, do you want it? Do you want it?
- [15:55]
Lewis Howes
Don't do it. Cause I'm saying you do it, but.
- [15:56]
Eric Thomas
Do you want it? And it could elevate you, but do you want it? I was like, yeah, I want it. The next question becomes, what does it take to do it? And then, am I willing to do what it takes to get it?
- [16:08]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, that's because it's a lot.
- [16:09]
Eric Thomas
It's a lot. But here's the thing. I believe if you think about it, it is only because somewhere inside of you, you have what it takes. Now, capacity is there. Willingness is something totally different. Yes, that's different. But I want every human to know. You wouldn't be watching the school. You wouldn't be watching or listening to the School of Greatness if you didn't believe you were great. I'm just. For real. You wouldn't be spending time with this man on a regular basis. I'm telling you, I wouldn't be going to Columbus. I drove to Columbus, bruh. It's not a.
- [16:44]
Lewis Howes
Trust me when I tell you.
- [16:45]
Eric Thomas
It's not a. You don't get off the freeway. It's not 65. You get up. Why did I go? Because this man is great. And greats want to hang with greats. I need you to understand. Look, y'all may not know. Listen to me. I've got Nomad suitcases that I still carry this day because he gave them to me like I didn't buy new. I carry the exact same ones that he gave me. And my son bought a set because I had a set, because it reminds me of him. When I travel, it's like, greatness. Great. So you wouldn't be watching. You wouldn't be locked in. Some of. Your spirit has you tuned into this man because you know, you're great. Now you gotta say to yourself, am I willing to cooperate with the greatness that's in me? And then once you do and you start consistently operating in that, you're gonna feel good about it. Here's what you have to do. You have to understand. Andre Deshields, I think said the top of one mountain is the bottom of the next. Wow. So you get to the top of the mountain, but you understand the GED was just one. The four year degree was just one. The master just after the PhD was the new York Times after that. It's the assessments, it's the training, it's the coaching. I'm in masterminds, I get coached. And so it's this idea of yesterday's greatness can't be enough because I'm alive today. So if I'm alive today, it must be some more greatness in me. And it's my job. Like the toothpaste is my job not to just lose. I don't know about you, but I would just use a little bit of. And get another one. I'm squeezing, and I got money and I'm squeezing that toothpaste. Why? Because I'm trying to get everything out the tube before I go to another one and with my life before I get out of here, which is why I could murder myself. That I didn't realize at 12 that I was great. And that's why I say you got to check in 2025, you 2025. Right. Because I didn't know I was great. And once I checked it and realized how great I was, I was like, bro, we gonna keep doing this until the day we die. And so I would just say to you, you are, you're watching, you're in this space, you're reading his books, you're going to his conferences. Because you know, it's in you. And it's time to stop being lazy. And it's time to. It's time to activate.
- [19:05]
Lewis Howes
I love that man. Well, here's the thing, why I think a lot of people might stay stuck is they. They allow their feelings to keep them in a place of frustration. You have this great example that you say execution should be fact based, not feeling based. But people feel the overwhelm of the economy or the government or their parents or their partner or whatever the responsibilities of the world. They feel anxious, avoidant, overwhelmed, burnt out, like doubtful, insecure. And they allow feelings to consume their inaction. So how, what's an example of how someone can shift from being Driven by emotions into fact based actions towards their.
- [19:53]
Eric Thomas
It was what you teach man, the meditation thing. People don't take it serious. Yeah. This is the time to get control of your mind. And for most of us, our mind is in control of us. So when you talk about meditating, it's like this is a habit of the grades. And one of the habits of those individuals who are not where they want to be is, I'm not trying to be funny, but it's like lazy to actually meditate regularly is a discipline.
- [20:23]
Lewis Howes
It is, man. It's not easy.
- [20:24]
Eric Thomas
It's not easy to get control of your. I'm like, where did that thought come from? Right. So guys, let's go back to the 12 year old that found the birth certificate, right? We found the birth certificate. We found the birth certificate in the emotional state. Oh yeah, we found it in an emotional state. Listen to me, I'm not the first kid who has ever gone through this experience. And you know what I had to ask myself in that mirror at 16, 17, 18, I had to keep asking myself, when you saw it, why did you see it that way? Why did you not call your mom and say, ma, you would talk about this. Why didn't you go, hey mom, the counselor, can we go sit down and talk to the counselor? Hey, mom, call dad, can we just sit down? And I. Listen to me. I went from, I can't believe that you would do me like this. I went from a ball of emotions to living in abandoned buildings. It was the most. It was the stupidest decision I have probably ever made. I put myself in so much danger as a 12 year old, 13 years old, homeless, based on emotions, on emotions. So the same document, nothing changed about it. But if I could go back as this adult and look at that, I would look at it as facts and go, wow, your mother protected you. Wow. Your mom loved you so much that she didn't want you with your biological father because she thought he could be a threat. Right, Wrong or indifferent. Your mom didn't do this because she was trying to hurt you. Your mom did this because she was trying to protect you. Your mom brought you into a family. Your mom didn't try to hide the identity. She wanted this man to be your father. He changed your name and gave you his last name. Wow. He treated me as if I was his own. Wow. He didn't lie. He made his family treat me as if I was. And don't ever say anything about my past because my past has nothing to do with him making a decision. At the courthouse to be my dad. Wow. It's the same document. One emotional, the other one is factual. Your mother loves you. Your mother cares for you. Your mother's trying to put you in a healthy environment. Your mother has a job. Your mother married somebody who was a foreman at gm. He has a job. He has a college degree. He played basketball. He's a responsible man. He protects us from take care. But emotion wouldn't let me be rational. Emotional wouldn't let me think. Think rationally. It had me irrational. So I would say when you make emotional decisions, you get emotional consequences. But it takes meditation, it takes controlling of the mind to say, how should I behave? How should I think in this situation? And what's going to give me the best outcomes? And I'm going to be honest. I've learned we can save the emotions for when I'm looking at the Nomad bag and going, man, that's my boy. Thank you. Why would you even buy me? Like, what would make you think of and this is a perfect gift, you know what I'm saying? Like, I didn't think to buy suitcases for myself. That's where the emotion should be. Me coming in, seeing you, hugging you. What's up, fam? But when it comes to business, when it comes to being a leader and a decision maker, we not doing emotions. We're doing empirical evidence. We're doing facts. What does the fact say? What does the research say? What does the evidence say? Okay. And based on the research and the evidence, this is the game plan. Let's go. It doesn't matter how you feel.
- [23:42]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [23:42]
Eric Thomas
Yeah. It don't matter how you feel.
- [23:43]
Lewis Howes
Man, I love this.
- [23:44]
Eric Thomas
Yeah.
- [23:45]
NerdWallet
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- [25:52]
Eric Thomas
That'S ready to Thrive? Let Intuit QuickBooks take things like unpaid invoices and tracking expenses off your plate to take things to the next level. Intuit QuickBooks is an all in one business platform that can help with day to day tasks like invoicing and expenses. Manage and grow your business all in one place. Intuit QuickBooks your way to Money Money Movement services are provided by Intuit Payments Inc.
- [26:16]
NerdWallet
Licensed as a money transmitter by the.
- [26:18]
Eric Thomas
New York State Department of Financial Services.
- [26:22]
Lewis Howes
Again, if we're we're talking about really developing, developing kind of a bulletproof mindset when the last five years for a lot of people has been a lot of stress overwhelming anx in order to have a more powerful, resilient mindset. How important is it for not just me and you? Because I already know the answer for me and you. How important is it for everyone to have mentors in their life?
- [26:46]
Eric Thomas
It's everything, man. Listen to me. I never even thought about being a multimillionaire or billionaire until I was in a room with Warren Buffett. I didn't even know how much it was worth when I was in the ruins afterwards. And then it's all started making sense. Okay, now that I know who I am, you 2025 like check. I know who I am now. It's. Oh, oh, real estate is away. Oh, so you mean to tell me that being a blue collar. Okay, that's what my parents knew. But you don't make a whole bunch of money working. You make more money when you put your money to work. Oh, that's real estate. Oh, Helping kids who are talented figure out their talent. Taking a percentage. Oh, okay. I didn't even know this stuff exists. Got it. And so it is important. Bob Proctor pulling me to the side. How much do you charge? You should be charging. Les Brown calling me and saying, I'll meet you in Orlando. Les Brown sitting me down, talking to me, Listen to me. Coaching is everything. Why? Because I just said, think of Michael Jordan without Phil Jackson, right? Think of Venus in serene. Venus in Serena without Richard Williams. Like, yo, I just want you to picture Kobe without Phil Jackson. Think. Think about Tim Brook without Mike, without. You know what I'm saying?
- [28:02]
Lewis Howes
Tim Grim.
- [28:05]
Eric Thomas
Why would he. So. So coaching is critical. And here's what's going to blow your mind when you get to our level. You really need more coaching because we didn't exhausted all the stuff. You really need coaching.
- [28:17]
Lewis Howes
After Jordan. After Jordan won its first championship. He didn't say, I think I've got it figured out on my own. I don't need a coach. He said, let me find Tim to train me. Let me find the mindset, coach, the recovery coach, you know, make sure we're.
- [28:29]
NerdWallet
Getting to the next level.
- [28:30]
Eric Thomas
They said. They said. I read it, but it's research. I. I'm almost sure it's true that LeBron. Look at LeBron, what he's doing right.
- [28:37]
Lewis Howes
Now, it's amazing, man.
- [28:38]
Eric Thomas
Bro. 40.
- [28:39]
Lewis Howes
A 40. Checking Duncan on 20.
- [28:41]
Eric Thomas
Whoever had the. The arguments, you know what I'm saying? Because there were those of us who was alive. Yeah, we watched Jordan do his thing. But, bro, what LeBron is doing right now. But when I do my research and not emotional about, oh, how is he doing this? Just, hey, no, when I do my research, he's spending 1.5 million on his body, meaning recovery coaches, meaning dietary coaches, everything, meaning mental and emotional coaches, acting coaches, like he got on. And so you see the decision he made. And you see, okay, yeah, he was great. But that investment that he made in himself. And now look, his son is in. And then he got another son. These are decisions that he's making. He's not emotional. These decisions are based on facts of experts. And then we're seeing the outcomes of it. We're seeing the numbers that he putting up at this age versus the. And nobody's ever put these kind of numbers up at this particular age. So we all need coaches, you know, and so that's why I've made the decision that e. The one area that you need to step up in speaking is good, traveling, the world talk. But you got to the same way people open up doors for you and walk you through, you have got to do the same thing. And I've literally, the last two years have had a small group of people that every morning I wake up with and I train them for an hour every single morning.
- [30:02]
Lewis Howes
Amazing.
- [30:02]
Eric Thomas
And what's amazing about that is to see the difference between people I coach and people who watch me online. Wow. It's a difference. You watching me online, you getting the motivation, but you not getting the daily schedule. You're not getting the things to do list. You're not getting the mindset, you're not getting the analytics, you're not getting the blueprint. So it's like you're watching and then you interpret. And this is why I think audiobooks are good, but I think training with our books are good because people will read our books and interpret them in a way that we didn't intend for it to interpret it. Yeah. So when we do the training or they get to come to a conference where they get to watch the podcast, they're really investing more into what was. What was he really saying? And if they can do what you're saying, that habit, they can get the outcomes that me and you get.
- [30:51]
NerdWallet
Yeah.
- [30:52]
Lewis Howes
And it's also being around other people who are in that mindset who are pushing and you're seeing them grow and it's influencing you to grow. And you're.
- [30:59]
Eric Thomas
Yeah.
- [31:00]
Lewis Howes
So the community aspect of. We're. We're getting coached together, we're growing together, we're working our goals together, all that stuff. You've got an amazing challenge coming up. It's you2025.com where you're going to put people through a lot of what we've been talking about and more.
- [31:16]
Eric Thomas
21 days.
- [31:17]
Lewis Howes
21 days. Every day. Coaching, teaching, mentoring, giving schedule.
- [31:23]
Eric Thomas
What I actually do. Not just the passion and stuff. You hear it online, what the actual and for free. But you. I'm gonna walk you through how many steps I take a day, what I'm drinking. Why do I. Why did I decide to wake up at this time? Why am I doing this? So that you can start the year off there should be like, in class especially, you go to College, it should be like you, you owe you 101, you owe you 215. Like you owe your 312. Like literally you get to sit down and go, what, who am I? What are my skills? What are the things that I'm challenged with? Like what industries would I be best in? We spend so much time trying to get that we. I don't think we spend a significant enough time who we are. Like, who should we become?
- [32:10]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, that's beautiful, man. So they can go to you2025.com to register for that. That's powerful, man. I feel like I could talk to you for, for a long time on this, but I wanted to ask you a couple more questions before we wrap up again. We're going Back to the 12 year old you, who's, who's down and out figuring about your, your dad's not your, your biological dad in your life, your mom lied, you know, challenges in life. And we're talking about where you're at now. Where do you think you'd be without a spiritual relationship with God in your life over the last 30 plus years? With all the ups and downs, where would you be in life right now? The ETU with no spiritual relationship?
- [32:53]
Eric Thomas
I'd say either. Dead. I'd say dead.
- [32:55]
Lewis Howes
Really?
- [32:55]
Eric Thomas
Yeah, because I was an extremist, you know, everything I did, I did it to the fullest, you know, so I think I would be dead. Honestly. I would say this to simplify for people because sometimes when you talk spirituality, it's just, for some people, it's just too deep. I would say to you, what happened when I, you know, made a commitment to God is that I connected with the person that made me me, that knew me like nobody else knew me. And he coached me from the 12 year old to now. He, he coached me. Wow. He's like, bro, I know you. I made you inside out. I know, I know what's the best environments for you. I know who's good for you, who's not good for you. I know your temptations, I know your, your vices, you know, I know your good habits, your bad habits. And just let me, let me teach you.
- [33:36]
Unknown
Wow.
- [33:36]
Eric Thomas
You know, and so it's, it, it was maybe five, six years of fighting, resisting, resisting, you know, and then. Cause he introduced himself to me at 8 and I guess maybe it was too young, but homeless. I was like at 16, like, okay, I'm ready to get coached. Where's that coaching program you said you had? I'm ready for that coach. And so from 16 to maybe 25. You know, it was like, okay, I'm gonna come to coaching some days. Some days I'm not. Some days I'm going in. Some days I'm not. And then my son was born. I was almost 25 years old. Jalen was born. And Jalen was born in 1995. I turned 25 in September. He was born July 20th. And when Jalen was born, it was the day coach said to me, this is why I've been trying to train you, because I wanted you to be the best father you could be. And so you miss him. You miss some classes, you miss some lessons. Your son is here now. He needs the best version of you. Wow. We can't. We can't. We can't repeat the mistakes of the past. And so I need you to hurry up. And so when Jalen was born, from that day forward, you know, I remember when he was born, I held him, and it was kind of like he looked at me like, you, the person that's gonna take care of me. Wow. You know, and that was the day. And this is what a lot of you are running from is the R word. And I get it. Cause it's tough responsibility. Oh, that was the day where it's like, oh, you got to be responsible for somebody else.
- [35:02]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [35:03]
Eric Thomas
You cannot. You got. I've never played a video game since Jalen was born. Wow. I've read more books since Jalen was born. That first year or two that I ever read in my life. I took my career seriously, speaking. I start, you know, Zig Ziglar, you know, Nightingale, you know, Og Mendino, Bob Proctor, all these bruh, you name them. Dennis Kimbrough. Like, I went. I went deep, I went heavy. You know, Arthur Ashe, you know, Days of Great. Man, I read everything. I was in the library like an addict, just studying and studying and studying. And it was because I didn't want the. I didn't want some of the consequences of the past to come in this generation, you know? And so for me, it was like, yo, your son's here. You got to handle your business. And I just heard. I was more attentive. I started getting up at 6. And then I'd play this game. Daylight saving times would come. I would, okay, say, don't follow it. Stay up at five is the new. And then the next year, the four. And then I got started getting up at three, and I started getting up at three o'clock in the morning because it was still. There was no dogs outside. Nobody was driving around the family was asleep. And I was like, okay, Coach, I'm sorry. Let's go back over the lessons I didn't get. And let's go over the new lessons, Coach. Me, show me, show me. Nobody knows me, man. I tell people I had a brand new Cadillac, man. It had 10,000 miles and the engine blew. And I immediately took it back to Cadillac. I didn't take it to BMW. I didn't take it to Honda. I took it straight to Cadillac. And I went right back to the creator, like, yo, you made me. And I'm tearing this car up. I'm not putting oil in it. I'm not changing the rotating the tires. I'm not putting fluid in it. Show me how to take care of this. And he began to show me how to do it. And it's just, like, amazing to see. When we're on one Accord and I'm following the. He told me. He's like, yo, it's time. I think I called you maybe last year. I'm like, yo, I need to. And it was like, no, no. You just supposed to call and say, what's up? You know? And then this time it was like, yep, you need to do it. You know? I was like, all right, I got it, Brandon. I think. And I was like, all right, you know what I'm saying? So just listen to him doing what he's telling me to do and let him coach me. So I would say, you know, don't spiritualize it and make it, too. It's the coach. And just get a relationship with the coach. Let the coach get a relationship with you and just do what he tells you to do, and you're gonna love the results. And so I don't wanna just be happy. I want the creator to go, yeah, I'm grateful that I created you. And I see you're doing in the world what it was that I wanted you to do. And now also for yourself, what I wanted you to do. Cause I wanted you to be happy, too. I didn't want your life to just be about work and being a blessing. I wanted you to be blessed as well. So that's it.
- [37:40]
Lewis Howes
You're a very driven person. You've shown that over your whole career, right in your life, overcome a lot of different challenges and adversities. And the first time in so many different ways, when someone is going through a dark time and however that looks for them, a breakup, a death, a letdown, any type of dark time in their life, is it possible to keep being driven in your Career and your goals and your dreams. When you're going through sadness and darkness and grief and loss without also being able to heal on the process, can you heal and be driven at the same time? Or is it only you can be driven because you're masking the pain and the suffering and you're not actually addressing it. Is it possible, Possible to do both? Be driven in the darkness?
- [38:34]
Unknown
Yeah. Well, that's what's so beautiful about this experience in life, right? Is that, like, we don't have to be one dimensional, that all things can be true at the same time. You know, it's the reason why. It's like, I remember once, shortly after Peter had died, I was sitting with a friend and she was telling me a story and I started laughing hysterically. You know, it was like after he died, yeah, it was like from my belly. You know, the kind of laugh that makes you want to fall over and slap something. You know, that kind of laugh. And then almost stopping short because I was like, oh, I'm supposed to be sad, you know, I'm not supposed to laugh like this. The truth of the matter is that, like, isn't that what life is? You know, even when you're grieving, you can have belly laughs that take you out of that pain for however long that is. Maybe it's a second or maybe it's five minutes, or maybe it's a few days, you know? So, like, if you're in a dark place, can you still be driven? Of course you can. You know, it's not a constant either, though, you know, where it's like being gentle with yourself and knowing that, like, even when you're in the darkness, there will be times when you don't feel like getting up. But it's not forever, you know, or to feel badly that you're driven, even though you're going through something, you know, so, like, even when. Yeah, it was like when I decided to move from New York and take the next job. And people are like, shouldn't you be in a cave somewhere crying your eyes out? You know, like, why. Why are you so ambitious? Sit down. You know? And yeah, I did question myself too. Like, why am I not sitting down somewhere? Like, why? Why am I still out here pushing? You know, like there were. There have been many, many moments like that. And I don't think that there has to be only one definition for how we are, you know? So, like, yes, if you're in a place where you feel like the textbook expectation should be that you should take one step at A time. Take it one day at a time. I hate that phrase, by the way.
- [40:39]
Lewis Howes
Instead of taking one day at a time, what should we do?
- [40:41]
Unknown
Oh, we should take it all, do everything all at once. Make it messy, make it unpredictable, defy logic. Like, why does it have to be so ordered one day at a time for what? One step at a time. For what? Sometimes I'm going to. Sometimes I'm going to run, sometimes I'm going to skip. Sometimes I'm going to go backwards. Sometimes I'm going to lay down. Sometimes I'm going to sit up and look at the world. And sometimes, yes, I will take one step. But why does it have to be so ordered all the time? And so the freedom in that, I think, allows us then to be multiple things at one time. So that yes, you can be driven and in a dark place, you can be hurting and still laugh. You can be healing and still trying to figure out how to avoid the next hurt. You know, like, all of those things can be true at the same time. And it doesn't have to mean that you're wrong or that you're doing it wrong. You know, it's like there's no definition for how you're supposed to live your life. And I think that's also the other beautiful thing, you know, the fact that, like, no one has ever been where I am before another person on the planet, you know, and so it's like, why would I subscribe to the steps? Somebody else thinks I should be ordered for me.
- [41:56]
Lewis Howes
Right.
- [41:57]
Unknown
There's no plan.
- [41:57]
Lewis Howes
Yeah. No one fully understands.
- [41:59]
Unknown
No one.
- [41:59]
Lewis Howes
Your life experiences, they might be able to relate to some things, but they don't fully understand and comprehend everything.
- [42:06]
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's so much freedom in that.
- [42:08]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [42:09]
Unknown
It's like you don't have to listen to anybody.
- [42:12]
Lewis Howes
Right, Exactly.
- [42:13]
Unknown
You know, and so it's like, yes, you can. You can be hurt and trying to heal, maybe taking the steps to healing, you know, whether that's therapy or you're working on something that you feel like, or taking a risk that you would have been fearful of before, but still, like being driven about this thing or like being, you know, like, okay, I'm going to accomplish this even though I'm not 100%. Like, that's the thing that always, like, I'm thinking about is that like, again, you don't have to have a full tank of gas to get to other side of town. You know what I mean? Maybe you had a quarter tank and you know that it's going to take you, like, just up to that. Like, right at that quarter to get there. You know, it's like, go. Anyway, why does the tank have to be full? You know what I mean? So for me, I'm constantly thinking about that. That, like, I'm still in the process of healing. That whole statement about, like, time heals all, heals all wounds. There's some bull. Okay.
- [43:08]
Lewis Howes
It's interesting you say that because my. I've got an emotional coach that I work with I was telling you about pretty much every two weeks, and she says, like, healing's a journey. It's not like a destination where you're like, okay, now I'm here, healed. It's okay. Now I've come to an awareness about the things. Now I've started processing it now. I'm integrating the lessons now. Oh, now I went back two steps because I triggered again. Now I reintegrate and I process it some more. And time helps, but it may not heal all.
- [43:38]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [43:38]
Lewis Howes
You know what I mean? So it's our constant awareness of it. Constant grace in the process of being a human being of a. You know what I mean? Yes.
- [43:49]
Unknown
You know, you just made me think of something because, like, this idea of, like, waiting to heal before you do the thing, that's, like, the opposite of living the urgent life, you know, because if you're constantly waiting until you are healed or you're constantly waiting until that next thing happens or you get to the right spot, or then you won't be fulfilled in your life, you know? If I waited to be totally healed from the trauma of my husband dying, I would not have moved across the country.
- [44:19]
Lewis Howes
Sure.
- [44:19]
Unknown
If I was waiting to be healed from the death of my first child, I would not be a mother today. You know, if I was waiting, like, all these things that we're waiting to accomplish or waiting to be fixed before you can do the next thing, it's just. It's like a waste of time.
- [44:37]
Eric Thomas
Yeah.
- [44:37]
Lewis Howes
I think it's inspiring when we have the courage to do the next thing and be aware that we're on a healing journey.
- [44:43]
Unknown
Yes.
- [44:44]
Lewis Howes
You know, I'm never going to be fully healed, but I'm in the process of it. I'm working on it. I'm doing this, and I'm going to do it anyways.
- [44:50]
Unknown
And there's no shame.
- [44:51]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, exactly.
- [44:52]
Unknown
There's no shame in that. You know, by the way, that's another, like, whole unlock that I had for myself and in my career, believe it or not, was that I opened this vulnerability that I had closed off before, you know, this idea of the perfection that things had to be great and like complete in order to move to the next thing. And very quickly. I mean, I was kind of thrown into it when I accepted the job with Jimmy that like, I had no idea what music streaming was. I'd never done that before. I was not an expert in it, but it didn't mean that I couldn't go do it. And guess what I figured out, you know what I mean? Or like moving anything in my life which has felt like, gosh, I need to really have conquered this thing in order to move to the next one has been a lie. And it is actually how I counsel a lot of women, especially who are like early in their career or mid career even who are waiting to rack all the things before they take the next risk. I'm just like, you know that that actually doesn't work, right? Like, you don't, you can't wait until like you've checked off every box before you jump to the next thing that you gotta do. You gotta leave some room for growth. You know, your, your cup is, if it's all the way full, how are you gonna put more stuff in it? You know what I'm saying? Like it's, you gotta have a little bit open at the top in order to pour more experiences in there, right? You know, so it's like if you're ever just like full to the brim, you've checked off everything thing, then there's no more growth for you.
- [46:33]
NerdWallet
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- [47:31]
Unknown
Welcome to Nadia Yada Island.
- [47:34]
Eric Thomas
Next on Nadia Yada Island.
- [47:36]
Lewis Howes
I knew I deserved so much more, so I left.
- [47:40]
NerdWallet
I finally switched to Metro and got.
- [47:42]
Unknown
What I was looking for.
- [47:44]
Get one line for only $25 a month with Autopay.
- [47:47]
Eric Thomas
Just bring your phone to Metro and.
- [47:49]
Unknown
Experience all the data you want on.
- [47:51]
Eric Thomas
The largest 5G network. That's nada, yada yada.
- [47:54]
Unknown
Only at Metro by T Mobile.
- [47:56]
Eric Thomas
First month is $30. Bring your number and ID offer.
- [47:58]
Unknown
Not available.
- [47:59]
NerdWallet
If with T Mobile, with Metro in.
- [48:00]
Eric Thomas
The past 180 days.
- [48:03]
Unknown
So as I even look at myself, that is where I am now, where it's just like there is no more growth. If you're all the way full, if you're checked off everything before you take the next risk, where are you going to put the stuff that you're getting? Yeah, you know, so yeah, it's like leave the tank like quarter full.
- [48:19]
Lewis Howes
Well, that's why I think it's really cool because in this off season that you're having in this last year, you're filling up your cup of your health and wellness, you're filling up your relationship cups, you're filling up your adventure and travel cups, you know, your relaxation cup, you're filling those up, but you're emptying your cup of career and success and this to see the space of what can come in next. That's right, to see where you can grow into next. So I think it's a great analogy. It's like, you know, fill your fill another cup, you know. Yeah, but that cup, you got to empty it out.
- [48:50]
Unknown
Yeah, exactly. Or get more cups, you know what I mean? Get more cups, you know what I mean? It's like maybe my corporate cup is full, I have a brand new cup.
- [48:58]
Lewis Howes
But you look like you're in your best health and wellness phase of your, you know, since I've known you. Not that you were not in great shape before or emotionally in a good place, but you, you feel energetically peaceful. I see you training, I see you like getting healthy in a big, even better ways. I see you with photos with your daughter and things like this and, and just like enjoying life together, traveling and bringing her in your life more. And those trips, I'm sure you did that before too. And so you're able to experience things in a different way to allow for things to open up, which I think is great.
- [49:30]
Unknown
Absolutely, absolutely. But that's also, like I said, part of the learning of this, you know, which is just like I don't have to have had things complete in order to move to the next thing you know, I'M sure there are people who would look at my career and say, oh, but you haven't done that thing yet. You know, don't you think you should do that before you retire?
- [49:49]
Right.
- [49:50]
You know, but like, do I need it? Probably not, you know, and so it's like, why continue? You know, why continue to do that thing? So, again, I think is a lot of. A lot of it really just has to do with self reflection at the end of the day.
- [50:07]
Lewis Howes
Yes.
- [50:08]
Unknown
You know, listening to your own spirit, listening to your own needs and wants and making sure that you're not lying to yourself, you know, based on the stories that other people have told you, based on narratives that are running around the planet that you've accepted as the truth and maybe were lies. You know what I mean? So I feel like there's such an opportunity for me too, you know, to re. Look at everything and yes. Be a healthier human and focus more on like, yeah, my physical health.
- [50:38]
Lewis Howes
Yes.
- [50:38]
Unknown
And focus on my relationship with my daughter. You know, explore the planet in ways that I haven't before. You know, like in 2022, I did a little Instagram reel about this that I every month. Last year, I worked out in a different country.
- [50:53]
Lewis Howes
You worked out in a different country. It's pretty cool.
- [50:56]
Unknown
It was fantastic.
- [50:57]
Lewis Howes
That's awesome.
- [50:58]
Unknown
But, you know, it was like, God, what a dream, you know, to be in a place where I'm financially secure enough to do that.
- [51:06]
Lewis Howes
That's cool.
- [51:07]
Unknown
Where I have the time to do that.
- [51:09]
Lewis Howes
You spend 20 years building your career and you're, you know, stacking your income and saving and investing so that you have the opportunity after 20 years to do that.
- [51:17]
Unknown
Yeah. And to take advantage of it now and enjoy it. Yeah.
- [51:20]
Lewis Howes
And have an urgency around it, man.
- [51:22]
Unknown
Because, like, what am I gonna do when I'm 75? Well, hopefully I'll still be working out and still healthy, but you know what I'm saying, like, waiting for that is not the answer. So even in that, I have urgency.
- [51:35]
Lewis Howes
So there's this, you know, I love the. Your story about you were satisfied at 20 something years old in the back of the, you know, the cab or the black car, and you're satisfied now. And I think a lot of people hear this concept of never be satisfied. But we were just talking about how, you know, be satisfied with where you are, but also be striving for your purpose, your mission, and stepping into that. And what are your thoughts on the idea of never be satisfied?
- [52:03]
Unknown
You know, I understand why somebody would say that, you know, like, you should always be hungry. Like, you should always be chasing. That's a good motivator, you know, to get the next thing so that you wake up and you want to go get it. But that's a terrible way to live. It's like complete. I vehemently disagree with the cost that they should. Should never be satisfied. You know, it's like you should. You should be satisfied. You should be satisfied. You should wake up feeling satisfied with your life. It doesn't mean that you don't want the next thing. Of course you want the next thing. But like, if. If life were to end today, would you want to have lived an unsatisfied life? Would you want, like. Like, I think I really do think of Peter at that, at those last days, you know, and think about all the things that he was unsatisfied about. I don't want that for myself. I don't want that for you. I don't think any of us should live that way. So be satisfied, you know, and that doesn't mean lesser than be satisfied.
- [53:06]
Lewis Howes
Even if you're just starting out as an assistant, getting coffee, if you're the CEO, if you're anywhere in between, if you're in an off season.
- [53:12]
Unknown
Yes, be satisfied. Be satisfied with, like, how wonderful you have it. You know, even the least of us, even the people who are like, you know, in this terrible place, like I said, like, we can be satisfied. Like the day after Peter died. Actually, no, it was a few days later because we were having his funeral. He died on December 11, 2013. It was four days before his 44th birthday. And so on his 44th birthday, December 15, we had his funeral and made it a party. And I was sitting there and, you know, kind of in a haze. But then also, you know, that moment of clarity where I'm looking around the room and, like, his fraternity brothers are drinking beers and they're sharing stories about him. And, you know, my daughter's like, sleeping on my mom's lap and. And I've got my sisters, like, in the corner trying to busy themselves, you know, like getting out plates of food and whatnot. And you see people connecting. And it was the oddest thought. You know, I looked around, I was just like, wow, like, this is a good group of people. You know, this is a great place to be, to have this. And so I was satisfied in that moment. The most terrible thing had happened in my life. But I was looking around and feeling very satisfied with who I had around me. And that, I think, is what I would like for all of us to consider that even when things are bad and going wrong, you can still be satisfied. You can still feel like this is it. And it is okay. Yeah.
- [54:59]
Lewis Howes
I'm a big fan of the title of the book, the Urgent Life. And when I saw this, I was just thinking to myself, yes, right away, because we have, like, similar, completely different experiences, but similar feelings, probably from experiences we've had. So my father got in an accident. He had a traumatic brain injury and was in a coma for three months when I was 21. And I remember we didn't know if he was gonna live or die, but he eventually woke up after three months and he was a completely different person. Like, he was physically alive, but emotionally and mentally kind of gone. It took him a while to, like, learn how to talk again. He wasn't able to work anymore. He had amnesia. So when I'd see him, like, what's your name again? It was just a different type of relationship.
- [55:51]
Eric Thomas
Right.
- [55:51]
Lewis Howes
I had to learn to love my father for who he was and start to grieve the man that he once was before.
- [55:57]
Eric Thomas
Right.
- [55:58]
Lewis Howes
And I remember thinking he was in his early 50s when this happened. He had worked so hard for 30 years as a life insurance salesman where he finally was starting to make money, where he could, like, travel and have some freedom in his life. And he was starting to feel like he was happy for the first time. Fully happy.
- [56:16]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [56:17]
Lewis Howes
And then this accident happened. And I remember being really angry at life that my dad didn't get to go live the rest of his life the way he wanted to. And I felt like I had so much urgency to go pursue everything I wanted. Like from that moment on, I was like, I'm not going to let any fear or insecurity hold me back. It might still be there, but I'm at least going to take the actions on my goals, my dreams, and live urgently. Because what if this happens to me? What if I get in a car accident tomorrow and something like that happens to me? I'd be sad that I didn't at least go try. And this again, completely different experience you had, but it created a feeling of urgency in your life with your ex husband.
- [57:01]
Eric Thomas
Right.
- [57:01]
Lewis Howes
With your husband, which was almost 10 years ago, is that right?
- [57:06]
Unknown
Yeah, 10 years this December.
- [57:08]
Lewis Howes
And can you explain the story about what had happened with your husband around wanting to get divorced and then cancer situation and how this. How being at a very dark, sad, challenging time, sad time, wanted you to create urgency at the same time and live into your best self during sadness. Can you explain a little bit about that.
- [57:33]
Unknown
Well, first of all, I. I really appreciate what you just said and shared about your dad, you know, because I feel that for all of us who are living this life on this, like, hurtling rock that we call home, we don't always have to have had the same experience to understand essentially, the concept of what I'm talking about, you know, this need for urgency. And it's not necessarily about the rush through life. It's about the intention, you know, knowing, like you said, like, you know, I want to do these things because what if? So then you're intentional about saying, okay, I want to live a big life, or I want to go do this thing that I'm dreaming of, or I want to push a little harder because, like, what if, Right? And the same thing for me in that, like, I don't think of the end of life in this morbid way where I'm just like, oh, today might be my last day. I'll think of it in a morbid way. It's very inspiring to me, actually. It makes me want to get up and go do the thing, you know? And again, it's not about a rush. It's like, I want to. I want to make the best use of my time that I have. I don't know how long it is, but I want to make the best use of it. And I'm also conscious of the fact that I won't do everything. And so that means that I have to be very intentional about the things I choose to do. Yes, because if you walk around thinking, like, oh, I have the time. I'll just do everything at some point, then maybe you don't get to do anything at all. So I'm intentional in knowing that, like, oh, okay, I might not get a chance to complete everything. So what's the most important thing? And then I want to do those things. And so at the time, In December of 2013, when Peter passed away, we were there, you know, where, you know, the stories are true. You're sitting at the deathbed and you're talking about all the things you wish you'd done.
- [59:21]
Lewis Howes
Is that what he was saying?
- [59:22]
Unknown
Oh, yeah. We talked about so much. The things he wanted to do, his hopes and dreams, what he wants for Lael, our daughter, like, what he wanted for her in the future, you know, all of those things. And I was sitting there listening and thinking and crying and making promises and all of the things. And knowing that I need to change the way I live, you know, he wouldn't have A chance to do it over, so I need to do it, you know, and it was such a dark time also because we were already going through so much on top of being at death's door, you know, that, like, our marriage had fallen apart. We had been separated for a couple of years already through so much. Oh, gosh. Additional traumas that happened to us, misunderstandings, anger, you know, that we couldn't overcome with just love, you know, you think.
- [60:22]
Lewis Howes
It, like, expectations, everything. Yeah.
- [60:23]
Unknown
Oh, man. You think love conquers everything and love is not enough.
- [60:27]
Lewis Howes
Love is not enough.
- [60:28]
Unknown
Love is not enough. You know, love is not enough. And it was all of that turmoil that led us to that moment where I am sitting holding his hand, that his breath gets shallower and shallower, you know, and thinking about all the things I would have done differently if I had a shot to do it again. You know, it's not necessarily that, like, oh, I wish life had turned out differently. It's just that I wish I had been motivated differently.
- [61:02]
Lewis Howes
What were you motivated by before then?
- [61:04]
Unknown
Oh, man. I think at that time, I was motivated by just my own need for my own life, you know, not really focus on anybody else's. And that sounds very selfish, but that's where I was, you know, it was not. I was a mother and a wife, but I was so only focused on myself.
- [61:28]
Lewis Howes
Really?
- [61:29]
Unknown
Yeah. At that time, Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, there was so much that had happened on my path to motherhood, and it's another one of the things that, like, you know, now I talk about so openly because we also paint motherhood. Like, it's supposed to be like, this great, amazing thing that, like, oh, you get pregnant, and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, all this love shows up from nowhere, and you're just, like, encapsulated by this person. It's like, no, that actually doesn't happen all of the time.
- [61:56]
Lewis Howes
Moments of that might happen, moments of.
- [61:58]
Unknown
That might happen, but it's majority of.
- [61:59]
Lewis Howes
The time, it's probably like, cleaning diapers and feeding and pumping and all the things that mom's up there's sitting there.
- [62:04]
Unknown
And being like, oh, hell, I made a mistake. This is not what I wanted in my life, you know, and struggling with that. And there were so many times where I thought about that, you know, it's like, wow, like, you know, is this life what I actually wanted? And so then at that moment In December of 2013, I was like, oh, no, I have to make the life.
- [62:26]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [62:26]
Unknown
That I want. I have to make it. I have to be an active participant in it. You don't just sit back and let the life happen to you.
- [62:34]
Eric Thomas
Right.
- [62:35]
Unknown
You have to make it.
- [62:36]
Eric Thomas
Wow.
- [62:37]
Lewis Howes
What was the biggest lesson during that time? You feel like you learned about his regrets about him not doing the things that he wanted to do?
- [62:47]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [62:47]
Lewis Howes
What opened up for you during that time? That shifted, if anything did shift for you.
- [62:53]
Unknown
And this might sound funny, but I think logic is what surprised me most. The logic of things, the writing down. It's almost like the writing down of the plan. Things that make sense because you're like, oh, I'm going to do these things. I'm logically going to take these steps in order to get to that thing. Right. And all of his regrets, everything that he wanted to do that he didn't get a chance to do was based on the logic of the steps to get to that thing that he never got to.
- [63:21]
Lewis Howes
Like, just scheduling it in the calendar or like a to do list.
- [63:25]
Unknown
And then it's like, oh, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that. And all based on logic. Life is not made of logic. Life is magic. It's the accidental encounters. It's the things that you can't explain. The feeling that you get in your belly that makes you feel alive and glittery, or it makes you super sad and you don't wanna get out of bed and the sky just looks great. And then maybe one thing happens. You're like, oh, okay, I can do it. You know, that's life. And being open to that is actually what gives you the experiences. So therefore, when perhaps you don't accomplish everything that was on your plan, you still feel really happy about the things that you did do because it was also magical, you know? And I'm not talking about, like, these big firework things. I'm talking about the little stuff, too. You know, the new person that you meet on the way to somewhere, you know, or like, the, like, meal that you had that you didn't think was gonna be delicious, that you just really savored. It was just magically amazing, you know, and just being appreciative of those moments. So again, it's like the life is not just about, like, the big, big, big stuff. It's not the headlines, you know? So to me, it's like, logic is what I then threw out the window. Interesting as a Cole. I'm not going to live a logical life. I'm going to live a magical life. The kind that is open to all of the things I can't explain, you know, that, like, the writing down of the list and the making the steps, you know? And I'm not saying that you walk around just like, huh, nah, da, da, da, da. Whatever happens today is what happens, you know, like, look, we all got to be responsible adults, okay? But the truth of the matter is that, like, how many of our plans have been stopped because of logic? The things that you said, like, ah, well, shoot, I can't do that because of this reason, that reason and that reason, and sometimes it's other people's logic that actually stops you from doing things you want to do. And so I want to stop that. I've been active in being, like, every time I approach a new ambition or a new idea or like, oh, I want to take a trip here, and that logic starts to come in. I'm like, girl, where's that magic? You better just step out and let the magic find you, you know, and not stop yourself. Because the math is mathing, right?
- [65:38]
Lewis Howes
It doesn't make sense logically.
- [65:40]
Unknown
It doesn't make sense logically.
- [65:41]
Lewis Howes
Allow wonder and synchronicity to enter your life to happen.
- [65:45]
Unknown
Louis, I can't tell you how many things have happened in my life that.
- [65:49]
Don'T make sense, right?
- [65:51]
The fact that I've had the career I've had doesn't make sense. It's not logical. There's no stat. Even when you look at things like, oh, you know how many black women CMOs have had jobs at four, like, Fortune 50 companies? There's no math. There is no. There's no data point.
- [66:08]
Eric Thomas
No, it doesn't exist.
- [66:09]
Unknown
Yeah, but I exist. So can you explain that? No, you cannot. So opening yourself up to, like, these things is what actually creates your destiny to, like, run the way that it should, you know?
- [66:24]
NerdWallet
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- [66:31]
Lewis Howes
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Lewis Howes
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Lewis Howes
Or when I need a quick, satisfying snack between interviews.
- [67:01]
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Lewis Howes
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- [67:19]
Lewis Howes
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- [68:03]
Lewis Howes
And in fact, I actually consider them.
- [68:05]
NerdWallet
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- [68:11]
Lewis Howes
You got to be kidding me.
- [68:12]
NerdWallet
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Lewis Howes
It's so good.
- [68:15]
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- [68:27]
Unknown
I'll give you one example. When Peter died In December of 2013, I was at PepsiCo. I'd been there for 10 years.
- [68:35]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [68:36]
Unknown
It was a great job. You know, I'd done many iterations of things and at that time, I was the head of music and entertainment marketing. And so I had been part of the team that did the deal with the NFL for the super bowl halftime show. I put Beyonce on that stage. Like it was like, you know, it was huge. Having great exciting career. And then Peter died. And I looked around and I was like, man, I think I want to do more things. Am I going to sit here for another 10 years in New York City doing this or have I had enough of this? And as I formulated that thought, I went to, I think it was NBA All Star or something like that. And I met somebody that I knew very lightly who told me that Jimmy Ivey and Dr. Dre had started their company, Beats Music, off of the back of Beats by Dre and that they were looking for head of marketing. Would I be interested. And the job was in la. My husband had been dead maybe two months, had a four year old child that I was trying to figure out how to raise by myself. All these things and so logic would tell you then, no, sit your down, you know what I mean? Like situate your life, figure out how to be a widow and a single mom and the main breadwinner. Like figure that stuff out, calm down, get some therapy. You know, just like sit and be quiet for a second, grieve, let a year go by and then figure out what you want to do. But instead I was like, it really doesn't make any sense for me to leave Pepsi, a long established company, and go to Beats Music where it's barely a company, some new thing.
- [70:17]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [70:17]
Unknown
I didn't know what music streaming was. I had no idea what the hell that was. And no idea. And. But I came and came to LA and took a meeting with Jimmy and he was talking about stuff that I had no idea about. And when I resigned from PepsiCo to take the job, everybody told me it was a bad idea. Louis, when I tell you there was not one person who supported it, not even my mother.
- [70:42]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [70:42]
Unknown
No one. Everybody thought I'd lost my mind. People thought I was acting out of grief. Maybe I was, you know, but the magic was that that opportunity opened up the next 10 years of my life. Yeah, it was the magic, the spark that I needed. It changed everything for me, Louis. Everything.
- [71:01]
Lewis Howes
And what would have happened if you would have listened to everyone else's fears and not made the jump?
- [71:06]
Unknown
Well, that, my friend, that's the great unknown. I don't want to get to the end of my life and ask that question. I don't want to sit there and say like, oh man, what would I have done if I'd taken that leap, just tried that other thing. Maybe you fail, but that's okay.
- [71:21]
Eric Thomas
Yeah.
- [71:21]
Unknown
You know, you can pick yourself up again.
- [71:23]
Lewis Howes
Sure, for sure.
- [71:23]
Unknown
And so sometimes I look around and like, especially when I'm like, you know, talking to a friend who's just like, oh girl, I can't do that because. And it's just like. But why don't you believe you can do it? You did that thing and that thing and that thing. And again, it doesn't have to be like the world changing thing that got headlines, but your everyday accomplishments and did this thing simply went into that workplace that you feel like demeans you and you still had a smile on your face, like what an accomplishment that is, you know, or any, anything that you do. So it's like, why. Why then do you not feel like you have the power to be able to overcome the things even if they're unknown to you? Yeah, that's how I feel.
- [72:15]
Lewis Howes
What are the three biggest reasons why people fail in a relationship while they end up getting divorced, end up getting separated, breaking up? Why do you think the. What are those three things that cause that?
- [72:26]
Unknown
All right, so number one, lack of healing. Lack of healing. Because lack of healing probably leads them to choosing the wrong person to begin with, which is the foundation for disaster. Because at that point, there's everything, as I'm about to mention, you can't really work it out with this person because you're just not in alignment with them. It's not a good fit. And so a lot of people are trying to make things work with someone they just. They just can't match up with properly.
- [72:53]
Lewis Howes
You know, is that trauma bonding or what is that? How does that play in a part?
- [72:57]
Unknown
Some of it is trauma bonding. Some of it is individual. So what's happening is this. This phenomena, if you want to call it that, people are choosing individuals that are, quote, unquote, good enough to be with, but they don't really make them feel deeply about them. Because if I'm a man or a woman and I've been hurt before and I've been hurt when I let my heart out completely, I fear being that vulnerable. So now you don't really ever learn how to not feel deeply about someone if they're just that person. But people learn who I can deal with and not fall deeply for. So, okay, I can be with this person and maintain emotional control. They don't take me there. So I don't ever feel like I'm too vulnerable in this situation.
- [73:45]
Lewis Howes
Do you think a lot of women choose the safe guy as opposed to the right guy?
- [73:49]
Unknown
Absolutely. And the safe choice is almost always, if not always, the wrong choice.
- [73:53]
Lewis Howes
Oh, man. Why is a safe choice always the wrong choice for a woman?
- [73:58]
Unknown
So think about it. In order for it to be safe, it means you are not deeply invested. You may be invested, it may be deep compared to certain people's perceptions of deep, but it's not as deep as, you know, you can go. It's not as deep to where you feel like you'll be devastated by it. So you're starting from a deficit. As far as I'm not fully into this. I'm not fully into this guy, but again, he may be good enough for me to work with and try to be with, but because you already have a built in void. So what happens is this. She chooses this man. She's not really into him. Let's say she's not that attracted to him.
- [74:36]
Eric Thomas
Him.
- [74:37]
Unknown
And it is not that he's not a good looking guy, she's just not attracted to him like that. Well, because you don't have that attraction, you're not going to pour into him at the same level that he needs you to. You won't be as intimate with him. You may not talk to him the way that he wants to be talked to. You're not going to give him the same energy that you would someone you're actually very much attracted to. Well, that void initially, he may not catch on to that or let that bother him. Because if he is indeed a man who is of a lower position than her or lower quality than her, he may just be happy to have this woman. Oh my gosh, I can't believe I have her. So he's infatuated, he's going in, he's blinded by his desires for her. But at some point the smoke clears and then he realizes, wait a minute. Okay, I have her, but I'm not being treated the way I want to be treated.
- [75:29]
Lewis Howes
I'm getting walked over. All over.
- [75:30]
Unknown
Exactly.
- [75:31]
Lewis Howes
It's all over.
- [75:33]
Unknown
Yes. I don't get the respect that I deserve here. And here's what's crazy. When that woman dates that man who she's not really into like that, and let's just say she dates, she dates down. Well, she just raised his stock. To every other woman that's watching this, they're looking and they're saying, how did he get her?
- [75:53]
Lewis Howes
What does he have? He must have something.
- [75:55]
Unknown
He must have something. Big pockets, big something else. Yeah. Power, something. Now these women want to find out.
- [76:04]
Lewis Howes
Do you think women really think that way when they see a guy who maybe is of, you know, hypothetical less quality or seeming less quality than the woman that they're with, that they start to be more attracted to that guy.
- [76:17]
Unknown
Yes. And even, even if it's not of a lower quality, if as a man you are seen with an attractive woman, a high quality woman, a desirable woman, you become more desirable to other women. I've talked to friends where they've even gone to clubs. They'll go there with a woman and they'll get more attention. And when that woman walks away, some of these women will try to slide in and slip in a number here and there.
- [76:44]
Lewis Howes
Why do women do this? It seems like women don't have ethics or do I not have integrity as opposed to saying, hey, I appreciate and I'm happy for you too. Why is it that some women, yes. Want to get in there and try to, quote, unquote, steal the man or influence the man to stray?
- [77:06]
Unknown
Well, so it starts with the fact that women have this perception that quality men are. They're not in abundance out here. Yes. They're very scarce. So when you come across one or you think you come across one, a lot of them have the mentality of, oh no, I have to try to get my foot in the door and see if I can get this for myself. If they thought it was abundant out there, then they'd be less pressed to do that.
- [77:29]
Lewis Howes
But what happens if a guy, okay, leaves the person he's with for you? Is that woman then going to be confident that he wouldn't do it again?
- [77:39]
Unknown
It depends. I think there are some women who convince themselves, like there's plenty of women who have taken a man from a woman or who have accepted that man, leaving one woman for her. And to her she's good. As long as she's getting what she needs, she's good. But I do think that in the back of their head, once something starts to go wrong, that's when those thoughts start to creep in.
- [78:01]
Lewis Howes
I wonder if he's talking to someone else, why isn't he giving me the attention anymore?
- [78:04]
Unknown
Exactly. And now. And. And I think it's even more likely that someone who knows about the situation will remind her, her, well, you got him this way, so you might lose him the same. And now the insecurities really start to kick in and it starts to become a huge problem.
- [78:20]
Lewis Howes
You talked about attraction and sorry to get you off track, you talked about attraction. What do you think is more important, sexual attraction or spiritual attraction for a woman?
- [78:33]
Unknown
I'm going to say spiritual attraction more than sexual, but I'm saying that with hesitancy.
- [78:38]
Lewis Howes
All right, you're pausing.
- [78:41]
Unknown
I'm not 100%. The only reason why I'm leaning towards spiritual is because I believe that women value intimacy, non sexual intimacy, way more than actual, just raw sex. Okay? So if you had door number one, hugs, kisses, caresses, you know, being emotionally available, door number two, just straight sex sex. Women are choosing. Most women are choosing door number one. Most men are choosing door number two. And so because of that value for the deeper levels of intimacy, I feel like spiritual attraction kind of fortifies that, whereas sexual attraction may not get them those things. So that's why I would pick spiritual attraction.
- [79:26]
Lewis Howes
What would you say for any guy listening or watching. If they wanted to attract the woman of their dreams, or essentially any woman that they really desired, if they wanted to attract that, who would they need to become in order to set themselves up to attract an incredible lifelong loving partner who gave them a fulfilling, joyful life?
- [79:53]
Unknown
I would say they would have to become their most confident masculine self. Whatever that looks like. It's going to look different for every guy, but at the foundation of it, there must be confidence in who he is and he must exude that masculine energy. Not saying there aren't men who can't get them a loving partner, not being the most masculine dude, but you have a better chance at achieving it when you can walk in your masculine energy. That's the power of the man.
- [80:23]
Lewis Howes
What if there's a man who is extremely masculine, masculine, but lacks confidence? What type of partner does he attract typically?
- [80:30]
Unknown
Well, I think lacking confidence, it undermines the masculine energy. It's hard to be that masculine presence if you are lacking in self esteem, lacking in self respect. The things you're going to allow a woman to get away with is going to start to lose, cause her to lose attraction for you. So it's almost like if you become her yes man. A lot of women don't want a yes man. Most women don't want a yes man. It might sound good to some initially, but over time she gets tired of the fact that you can't think for yourself, that you aren't giving your own perspective, that you aren't confident enough to stand in your own vision and your plan. So that immediately takes you out of your masculine energy. Because now you're trying to become so accommodating to the point that you've lost yourself in that process. And that doesn't work well in the long term. I mean, think whenever you hear stories of nice guys being run over and getting played, it usually involves this man who is just trying to do everything the woman wants and just putting all his desires to the side to make her happy. That doesn't work. Not like that it doesn't.
- [81:36]
Lewis Howes
That's kind of like the safe man, right?
- [81:38]
Unknown
Yes.
- [81:39]
Lewis Howes
So the safe man is not always the right man is what I think I heard you say, right? Typically. But doesn't a woman want to feel safe? Safe in an environment with their man?
- [81:50]
Unknown
Yes. But the safety. So the safety that's being achieved by picking the safe choice is I don't have to be too vulnerable in this relationship, so I'm able to guard myself from devastating hurt and disappointment that I'VE probably experienced at least once before, at least at a level that I felt like I don't ever want to go there again. That's very different than the man who she is completely invested in, completely in love with. And he understands the need to provide safety and security for her. The need to make the situation or the relationship more stable for her, where she can rest in her feminine energy, so to speak, while she's with him. That's two different types of safety.
- [82:33]
Lewis Howes
So it's like, okay, if you choose a safe man, but essentially it sounds like that's a space where you don't have to fully open up and be vulnerable. It's a space where you probably know you're in control. Control where you're probably have more value to offer or this person is desiring you way more than you desire them.
- [82:52]
Unknown
And that. That's the big one. It's a situation where she feels like he wants me or he loves me more than I do him. And that's where they feel like it is safe. But again, it doesn't work in the long run. Never. Yeah, I want to say never.
- [83:07]
Lewis Howes
Never.
- [83:08]
Unknown
I should never say never, but I'm going to use that word right now.
- [83:11]
Lewis Howes
Because if someone, if you are in a relationship like that, and maybe you're not even conscious that you're doing it in the beginning, but you realize a year, two years in, okay, you know, the person I've chosen really doesn't step into his confidence or his masculine energy. He'll do anything I want him to do at all times. He stops his dreams from my dreams, whatever it is. What is. Typically the women you've worked with, how do they. What do they say about that? What do they feel about that? And what is their struggle? Is it they want to leave? Is it they just feel bad, they don't feel connection anymore. What is it that they feel?
- [83:47]
Unknown
Well, so it's. It's a tricky place because at that point, it's hard for them to fully express what's going on. Like, one of the things I tell women is that one of the worst positions to be in is with a man you're not truly in love. Well, with a good man you're not truly in love with.
- [84:02]
Lewis Howes
Why is that the worst position?
- [84:03]
Unknown
Because at, at that point, if she's feeling empty, she's feeling bored, she's feeling unsatisfied, who can she run to and say this to that won't say, but wait a minute, you have a great man. You can't do that. Oh, just Work like no one's going to say, oh, yeah, you know what, I get it. Just walk away. I won't say no one. But most people aren't going to allow that to be a good enough reason for her to walk away. So she knows she's going to get pushback from, from people. But not just pushback from people, from her own self. It's like, okay, wait a minute, do I leave this great guy who loves me so much, which is so safe here, even though I'm not really that happy, I'm not fulfilled, or maybe I'm not that attracted to him? That's a tough position to be in because it's like, it would be so much easier if he cheated on her. It'd be so much easier if he was abusive or something. Then she could easily validate, oh, okay, I got to go. And that's why some women in that situation, what they do is try to create turmoil, try to find, yes, they're trying to find something to give them the exit to say, okay, I don't have to be here anymore, or to make that man want to leave them. And in fairness, this happens on both sides. But I've literally talked to clients who the only they cheated, hoping it would make their partner leave them.
- [85:25]
Lewis Howes
Oh my gosh.
- [85:26]
Unknown
Because what was happening was in this instance, she was trying to tell the guy over and over, I don't want to be here. But again, he's this good guy, I love you, I don't want to lose.
- [85:34]
Lewis Howes
You, so I'll do whatever you need to change.
- [85:37]
Unknown
And out of guilt and sympathy, she stays with him. But she's so not happy. So now she's thinking, okay, he won't leave me even when I tell him I don't want to do this anymore. Even when I tell him, this is not working, so what can I do? And some will actually cheat on purpose, Let the man find out, hoping he would find let go. And in some cases, he still doesn't let go.
- [86:02]
He gets cheated on and he still.
- [86:04]
Wants to work it out with her and she feels trapped. And so it just continues like it's just a never ending cycle until either one of them finally gets tired of it or, I don't know, just, it just, it's crazy trauma and stress. Yeah.
- [86:18]
Lewis Howes
So what I heard you say, for a man to attract the, you know, a joyful, loving partner that they really desire and have someone that they really are inspired by for, you know, a long term, I'm hearing you say that that man needs to step into their self esteem, their confidence and their their masculinity. Yeah, they got to step into that leadership, masculinity, quality. Right? That essence. If a woman really wants to attract the right healthy man, someone that is safe in terms of they can trust, but where they have to fully, they have to feel a little vulnerable to really dive in and they really care about this man in a big way, what does a woman need to do in order to attract that ideal partner for themselves?
- [87:08]
Unknown
It's the same answer for the women in reverse. It's walking in their true feminine confident self, whoever they really are, but being that best version of themselves. And to what you were saying, it can't be find a man who you can be feminine with. It has to be be your feminine self first and you'll be able to attract the man that you can continue to be feminine with or that will honor, respect and value your feminine energy and protect your feminine energy. That's what you want. But what's happening to so many women is they become detached from their femininity or they're viewing it in a negative way. They're viewing it as weakness. As when I'm feminine, I get played, I get taken advantage of. And so the mindset is if I find the right man, I can be that. So you'll hear a lot of women say, well, I am feminine in a relationship. The problem is he can't see that far in to know that he wants to get in a relationship with you.
- [88:11]
Lewis Howes
I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy and if you are looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life. But you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant. Then make sure to go to makemoneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment. Moving forward, we have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to the next episode on the School of Greatness. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the DESC description for a.
- [88:59]
NerdWallet
Full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.
- [89:03]
Lewis Howes
And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts.
- [89:15]
NerdWallet
Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.
- [89:23]
Lewis Howes
I really love hearing feedback from you.
- [89:25]
NerdWallet
And it helps us figure out how.
- [89:26]
Lewis Howes
We can support and serve you moving forward.
- [89:29]
NerdWallet
And I want to remind you if.
- [89:30]
Lewis Howes
No one has told you lately that.
- [89:32]
NerdWallet
You are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
- [89:36]
Lewis Howes
And now it's time to go out there and do something great.
- [89:48]
NerdWallet
Experience the performance of Lexus racing. The thunderous V8 engine. The black and deglo yellow Lexus RC F GT3.
- [89:58]
Unknown
A blur of speed and adrenaline.
- [90:00]
NerdWallet
The sheer force of acceleration. The physics defying grip of the tires. The intensity of every corner. The precision of each maneuver.
- [90:10]
Unknown
The sound of victory.
- [90:13]
Lewis Howes
Visit Lexus.com Motorsports to keep the thrill going.
- [90:19]
NerdWallet
TaxAct can think of a million things more fun than filing taxes. TaxAct is going to name some now.
- [90:26]
Unknown
Sitting in traffic, folding a fitted bedsheet.
- [90:30]
NerdWallet
Listening to your co worker talk about.
- [90:32]
Unknown
His fantasy team digging a hole.
- [90:35]
NerdWallet
Digging an even larger hole next to that original hole. Unfortunately, TaxAct's filing software can't make taxes fun, but TaxAct can help you get them done.
- [90:46]
Unknown
TaxAct, let's get them over with.