Family Therapist: The #1 Sign You Were Raised by Narcissistic Parents

Summary

The School of Greatness: Family Therapist Reveals the #1 Sign You Were Raised by Narcissistic Parents

Host: Lewis Howes
Guest: Jerry Wise, Life and Relationship Counselor
Release Date: March 19, 2025

In this compelling episode of "The School of Greatness," host Lewis Howes sits down with renowned family therapist Jerry Wise to delve deep into the intricate dynamics of growing up with narcissistic parents. Drawing from Jerry's 40 years of experience, the conversation unpacks the subtle and overt signs of narcissistic parenting and offers profound insights into healing and self-differentiation for adult children navigating these challenging relationships.

1. Introduction to Family Trance and Malignant Normalcy

From the outset, Jerry Wise introduces the concept of the "family trance," a state where dysfunctional family behaviors become normalized, making it difficult for individuals to recognize and address them. He coins the term "malignant normalcy" to describe how abusive or controlling behaviors are internally accepted as standard within the family unit.

Jerry Wise [01:19]: "So many people grow up under the family trance. They don't understand the dysfunctional function of their family because it's been normalized."

2. Recognizing Narcissistic Traits in Parents

Jerry outlines key characteristics of narcissistic parents, emphasizing their controlling nature, lack of empathy, and inability to admit wrongdoing. He clarifies that narcissism doesn't always equate to overt abuse but often involves subtle manipulations and self-absorption.

Jerry Wise [06:39]: "The narcissist will be very self-absorbed. Everything is basically about them, that it always comes back to them."

3. The Impact of Narcissistic Parenting on Adult Children

Growing up with narcissistic parents often leads to unbounded guilt, intense self-criticism, and a persistent feeling of inadequacy in adult children. Jerry explains how these individuals internalize their parents' negative perceptions, leading to self-hatred and dysfunctional self-perception.

Jerry Wise [11:43]: "An adult child of a narcissistic family often will have unbounded guilt, shame, criticalness, hyper criticalness, very hard on themselves."

4. Self-Differentiation: Breaking Free from the Family Trance

A central theme of the discussion is "self-differentiation," the process of distinguishing one's own beliefs, values, and emotions from those imposed by the family system. Jerry emphasizes that without self-differentiation, individuals continue to reenact dysfunctional patterns in their adult relationships.

Jerry Wise [09:54]: "If you don't break the cycle, you're going to relive that pattern in your adult relationships as well in some way."

5. Healing the Inner Child and Reparenting Yourself

Jerry introduces the concept of the "inner child," a vital component of one's psyche that retains childhood experiences and emotions. Healing involves "reparenting" oneself, nurturing the inner child to overcome the trauma inflicted by narcissistic parenting.

Jerry Wise [31:27]: "You start your childhood now by reparenting yourself and healing the inner child."

6. Setting Healthy Boundaries with Narcissistic Parents

Establishing boundaries is crucial for adult children to maintain healthy relationships with their narcissistic parents. Jerry outlines strategies for inner boundaries—emotional limits that protect individuals from being drawn back into dysfunctional family dynamics.

Jerry Wise [75:54]: "The way we do that is by inner boundaries first versus external boundaries. Because if you build your inner boundaries first, you'll be able to hold to your outer boundaries."

7. Overcoming Shame, Guilt, and Self-Criticism

Jerry discusses how chronic anxiety within narcissistic families fuels behaviors like overcompensation and self-withdrawal. Recognizing and addressing these underlying anxieties is essential for reducing self-criticism and fostering self-compassion.

Jerry Wise [66:06]: "The family's chronic anxiety pushes you to then go, oh, I need to get approval or I need to be pleasing."

8. Practical Steps to Break the Family Trance

The conversation provides actionable steps for listeners to begin their healing journey:

• Self-Awareness: Recognizing and understanding the impact of narcissistic parenting.
• Self-Regulation: Managing emotions to prevent reactivation of old family dynamics.
• Self-Differentiation: Actively distinguishing one's identity from familial influences.

Jerry Wise [62:00]: "Self-awareness, self-regulation, self-differentiation—these are the three pillars to effective healing."

9. Jerry Wise's Three Truths for Lasting Impact

As the episode nears its conclusion, Jerry shares three enduring lessons he wishes to leave the world:

1. Solve Problems Outside the Box Caused by Dysfunction: Changing the approach is necessary to effectively address issues rooted in dysfunctional family dynamics.
2. Family is Everything: Despite challenges, family remains a critical component of one's life and identity.
3. Calmness is Everything: Maintaining calmness allows for better emotional regulation and reduces the likelihood of enmeshment.

Jerry Wise [87:17]:
"1. Remember that you can't solve the problem using the thinking and emotional dynamics that have caused it.
2. Family is everything.
3. Calmness is everything."

10. Defining Greatness Through Authenticity

In the final moments, Jerry offers his definition of greatness: finding and embracing one's true and authentic self. He underscores that genuine self-love and differentiation not only benefit the individual but also enrich the broader world by fostering healthier relationships.

Jerry Wise [89:03]:
"Greatness would be finding the true and authentic you... what are you giving to yourself. Because that will make the world greater if you do that."

Conclusion

This episode serves as a profound guide for anyone grappling with the legacies of narcissistic parenting. Jerry Wise's expert insights and practical advice empower listeners to recognize harmful family patterns, heal their inner child, and establish self-differentiation, ultimately paving the way for healthier, more fulfilling relationships.

For more resources and to connect with Jerry Wise, visit jerrywise relationship systems.com.

---

Note: This summary excludes promotional segments and advertisements present in the original transcript to maintain focus on the core content.

Transcript

[Lewis Howes]

There are two big things happening at one time that I've never done before. I'm going on a book tour for my new book, Make Money Easy, and I'm doing a podcast tour at the same time.

[Unknown Co-host]

It is going to be big and.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm going to seven cities in 10 days. Get your friends, get your family. Bring everyone you know to these cities. I'm coming to Austin, Texas, New York, Boston, we're going to Nashville. Then we're going to Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco. Make sure to get your tickets right now. Go to Lewishouse.com tour again. Bring everyone you know.

[Unknown Co-host]

If you're looking to create more financial.

[Lewis Howes]

Freedom and abundance to your life and you want to see a massive guest live on the School of Greatness show, get your tickets. I can't wait to see you there.

[Jerry Wise]

People will always ask me, am I a narcissist? And I'll go, do you ever feel guilty? A narcissist is not going to feel that guilt. What have they done wrong? Wrong? They're always right. Why would they apologize? You made them do it.

[Unknown Co-host]

Oh my gosh.

[Jerry Wise]

Or they did it for your good.

[Unknown Co-host]

Jerry is a life and relationship counselor for 40 years.

[Lewis Howes]

He is in a professional in psychotherapy and family therapy and now in life coaching. Please everyone, welcome Jerry Wise.

[Jerry Wise]

So many people grow up under the family trance. They don't understand the dysfunctional function of their family because it's been normalized. Here I am criticizing myself and and cutting myself down internally and hating myself. And many will go, don't look at any of that. Let's just try to be nicer to yourself. Versus Wait a minute. Let's get mom and dad out of the. It's never too late to have a happy childhood. So let's start now.

[Lewis Howes]

What are the warning signs then that.

[Unknown Co-host]

Show up in adult children of narcissistic parents?

[Jerry Wise]

Let's then take a look at that.

[Unknown Co-host]

The School of Greatness is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. As Amica says, empathy is our best policy. That's why they'll go above and beyond to tailor your insurance coverage to best fit your needs. Whether you're on the road at home or traveling along life's journey, their friendly and knowledgeable representatives will work with you to ensure you have the right coverage in place. Amica will provide you with peace of mind. Go to amica.com and get a quote today. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card is everything a credit card should be. It's easy to manage, built to be secure and gives users up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase. The best part about Apple Card is applying is quick and easy. Apply in the Wallet app on iPhone and see a credit limit offer in minutes subject to credit approval. Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] Westin Hotels and Resorts are designed with your well being in mind. With more than 200 destinations around the world, Westin Hotels makes it possible to keep up with your wellness routine while traveling. And if there's one thing I've learned from being on the go all the time, it's how important it is to prioritize quality sleep no matter where you are. With signature amenities and offerings that help you move well, eat well and sleep well, Westin Hotels makes travel an opportunity to enhance your well being. Look forward to the rest with restorative sleep in Westin's iconic Heavenly Bed. Find wellness at Weston, one of 30 extraordinary hotel brands in the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio.

[Lewis Howes]

Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest today. We have the inspiring Jerry Wise in the house. And a quick bio about Jerry. He's the leading expert in healing from family and relationship dysfunction through self discipline differentiation. You've been doing this work for over 45 years as a therapist and a coach and you've helped thousands of people worldwide break free from dysfunctional family patterns and discover their true selves. And this could possibly be one of the most powerful conversations we have here. I'm not just saying that even though we've done this show for 12 years, because in my mind we've talked a lot about narcissism and relationships and narcissism. But we haven't covered if you have experienced life with a narcissistic parent and the clear signs of if your parents were narcissistic or on the spectrum in any ways and how that impacts you for everything in your life. And so I'm curious if we could start, Jerry, with what are the clear signs that you could start reflecting and asking yourself if one of your parents were narcissistic in any way?

[Jerry Wise]

One of the things certainly that I found is that so many people grow up under the family trance. And so the family trance, they don't understand the dysfunction of their family because it's been normalized. And I've used the term malignant normalcy because then if, if I grew up abused and I'm in an abusive relationship, I've normalized the abuse as not something I like. But I will accept, or it's kind of, it's kind of normal. It's what. But that's a malignant normalcy. That's not a normalcy you want to have. And so when people, when I think about helping people see, and really that's what my work is about. It's to help people see outside the box and to see in a broader way so much of all the dynamics that are going on within the family. And if you have a narcissistic family or there's all kinds of other dysfunctional families too, there are some universals that go along with that. But when you say a narcissistic family, I think when you start to recognize, hey, they've always been controlling, they lack empathy, guilt and shame. They could be abusive, but they don't have to be abusive to be narcissistic. They love you and they have a plan for your life. And I say love with air quotes that we used to say that in religious circles. God loves you and he has a plan for your life. Well, the narcissist loves you and they have a plan for your life and you better follow it.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. Or else.

[Jerry Wise]

Or else. And the narcissist will be very self absorbed. Everything is basically about them, that it always comes back to them. That's the whole focus. And if you have parents who have some of those type of traits, there are other traits, but some of those people will always ask me, am I a narcissist? And I'll go, do you ever feel guilty? Oh, yeah, all the time. Then you're not.

[Lewis Howes]

You're just dysfunctional.

[Jerry Wise]

You're just dysfunctional. No. Right. A narcissist is not going to feel that guilt. They don't feel. What. What have they done wrong? They're always right. So that. Why would I feel guilt about anything or shame? So if, if you felt that, you're probably less likely to be a narcissist. If you. But a parent can be a narcissistic parent. They don't. They can abuse you, they can criticize you. They can, but they'll never go, oh, that my bad, I want to apologize. Do that. Why would they apologize? You made them do it. You made them do it. Or they did it for your good. So why would I ever need to say I'm sorry? There's no need to say I'm sorry.

[Lewis Howes]

What's the worst thing a parent could do then to their kids over and over again that will almost surely make them dysfunctional as an adult? Is it never apologizing to them when you know they.

[Jerry Wise]

That's too symptomatic, that's too superficial. The thing that's going to make them more dysfunctional as an adult is to not break their own cycle from their own past, Bringing that cycle to their current nuclear family and not knowing it.

[Lewis Howes]

So bringing the generational trauma onward and.

[Jerry Wise]

The generational programming and the generational emotional wi fi that's been going on, and they just bring that right into here, that's going to mess them up more than ever now. Does abuse and narcissistic meanness and do all those things affect the kid? Of course it does.

[Lewis Howes]

Screaming and all this stuff.

[Jerry Wise]

Yeah, exactly. Of course it's going to. But it's not the screaming that's the underlying problem.

[Lewis Howes]

That's a symptom of.

[Jerry Wise]

That's a symptom of how the family has been dysfunctional and toxic and. And it can come out in different ways. Narcissism, alcoholism, abuse, workaholism, sex addiction. It can come out. And gambling and all kinds of symptomatic ways. But underneath all of that is an enmeshment to a family whose trance has never been broken.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. The origin family.

[Jerry Wise]

The origin family. It's never been broken and now you're just living it out. Only John's living it out that way, Mary's living it out that way. But that's the underlying important dynamic.

[Lewis Howes]

And if we don't break the trance of the family, the origin family of ours, if we don't break that trance, then we're just going to relive that pattern in our adult relationships as well in some way.

[Jerry Wise]

And it may not even look like the way mom and dad did it, but the pattern's still there. So people will go, well, I'm not like my parents. Oh, well, hold on just a second. Let me ask you. But what you're doing is the same theme, and it has origins in your family of origin. You may have chosen the opposite, but 180 degrees from unhealthy is unhealthy. So people will go, oh, well, I'm all the way over here. Oh, now you're just a class B unhealthy rather than a class A unhealthy person. And you feel superior over them because you're over here, right? You haven't broken the cycle. You're living the pendulum life.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, I'm not screaming at my partner.

[Jerry Wise]

I'm not screaming at my partner like they did.

[Lewis Howes]

But I'm controlling.

[Jerry Wise]

But I'm being controlling. And I still may be self Absorbed or judgmental or any number of other kinds of things.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting. Here's the real question then. If we start to think about, oh, maybe my parents had some narcissistic tendencies. And I'm starting to think about it, and I'm starting to evaluate my childhood and realize, oh, I thought this was just normal because it's the only thing I knew.

[Jerry Wise]

How many families did we grow up in?

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, right. And it wasn't as bad as that family. So I got to be grateful for this.

[Jerry Wise]

Yeah, and we should.

[Lewis Howes]

And my parents were loving at times and they gave us and they were doing the best they could so that I can't think of them as narcissistic. But we start to internalize that. What are the warning signs then that show up in adult children of narcissistic parents?

[Jerry Wise]

Let's then take a look at that mom and dad or whoever was narcissistic, hyper critical and judgmental. Now I then grow up and say, I'm not going to be like that, but what am I to myself? Hyper critical and judgmental. So an adult child of a narcissistic family often will have unbounded guilt, shame, criticalness, hyper criticalness, very hard on themselves. So they just take the voice from here and just live it inside themselves. Really, everything is that way. People go, oh, well, they, they screamed all the time. So many times I've said, so how many times have you internally screamed at yourself? I don't scream at other people. I didn't say other people. I said, you. Oh, well, yeah, I can be pretty nasty to me, you know, you stupid. And I said, you're just reliving this only in a different way. And so it's all embryonic in the family. So everything that's happening out here, the problem. And that's what I think. That's why I use the term the problem is the solution is not near the problem. Also, the problem may not be near the symptom. Here I am criticizing myself and cutting myself down internally and hating myself. And narcissists, adult children, narcissists, can definitely hate themselves because they've been judged and criticized and, you know, emotionally hurt so many different ways. Shamed. And so this is what they're doing out here. And they're now doing this as adults to themselves internally and going, well, what's the solution? And many will go, don't look at any of that. Let's just try to be nicer to yourself. Which is not bad advice, but it's superficial advice and it may not hold and then you'll try it and then give it up and you'll try it and give it up versus wait a minute, let's get mom and dad out of you.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

That's what we want to do. And do you recognize that's not you when you are criticizing yourself that way? You're going to be under the hypnosis and the trance that this is me doing it to me. And I'm, and I go, let me give you some good news. It's not you doing it to you. It's your family still doing it to you through you.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

There's a difference. And that's a huge difference.

[Lewis Howes]

And so as adult children, what should we be thinking about if we felt like we had a dysfunctional childhood? So we'd be thinking about how do I get my, myself to be self differentiated from my parents and my family? How do I block my family completely? How do I heal the past? Like, what should we be thinking about as we come into awareness as adult children of dysfunctional childhoods or narcissistic parents?

[Jerry Wise]

And I think it's a great question, but your question also has within it a certain paradigm, as all questions do. Every question has the answer in it. Every question that someone asks, the answer is in their question. And so you were asking about, so do I separate myself from my family? Do I, you know, and, and certainly if someone, if families are abusive and toxic and have no interest in changing. No. Well, then we have to look at some no contact or, you know, we may need to go that far. But self differentiation, what I tend to think when someone has a family that's narcissistic, does the person that I'm working with or talking to or the, the adult child of the narcissist need greater self differentiation, which is a, an emotional state and a maturity state, or do they need to physically separate? If you physically separate, you still need to emotionally separate.

[Lewis Howes]

Right. It doesn't solve the problem.

[Jerry Wise]

It doesn't solve the problem now. But I don't want you there being abused, you know, and being taken and you know, there's common sense to this as well. But self differentiation is the, do you have the maturity and respect for yourself that if you had grown up in a healthy family, this is the way you'd be? That's self differentiation. And people go, well, how can I do that? I didn't grow up in a healthy family.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Jerry Wise]

It's never too late to have a happy childhood, really. So let's start now.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

And are you going to take Care of yourself or are you not? And adult children and narcissists don't know how to take care of themselves. They've never even been told that's a good thing to do. Many of them would say, well, my church or my whatever teaches me I should not do that because that's selfish. And I go, no, no, that's not what they're teaching. Or I don't know, they may be teaching that certainly possible, but that's not what that. That isn't what self care is about. Self focus is healthy. We've grown up with no self focus and only focused on the others in the family. Now we want to do self focus, which means inner boundaries. Where when you say, well, Jerry, you're, you know, you're such a bad son and I just think you're worthless. And inside I go, so what? And because you are you and I am me, if we are too enmeshed, then what you said will drive me crazy.

[Lewis Howes]

And then I'll try to overcompensate or approval or whatever.

[Jerry Wise]

Yeah, I'll try to. I'll be reactive. I'll get mad. I'll say, well, that's what you've always treated me. Why don't you stop treating me that way? You've always been this way and da, da, da versus Okay, I see. That's how you feel. I don't feel that way about me. But it's okay if you do. I mean, you have right to feel that way about me if you want. I don't care. I hope it helps you out. I don't know.

[Lewis Howes]

Why is it so hard as adult children to break the family trance, though? Of conditioning from parents guilting or. You need to come visit me more. Why don't you call me more? You're not doing this more or whatever our fantasies.

[Jerry Wise]

We're still children. I want the parent to love me. I want them to accept me. I want them to take care of my needs. I've always wanted a parent who would care. And I'm not ready to give up that fantasy.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, man.

[Jerry Wise]

And if I could help someone give up those fantasies, they'll grow like nobody's business.

[Lewis Howes]

Really. Oh, they just go. It's the fantasy that holds us back.

[Jerry Wise]

That's part of it, yes. The trance. And what we've learned is normal. And then there's the fantasy of when you don't get it growing up, then you will always be looking for it. I want you to come to me and we work out. Help me helping you to stop looking for it.

[Lewis Howes]

Stop looking for what? A beautiful, like, childhood or whatever.

[Jerry Wise]

Beautiful childhood. My parents love me. They need to treat me right. Maybe someday they'll accept me. Maybe it's not. It's. It's a fantasy. It is a fantasy. And fantasies mess up adulthood. Goals don't mess up adulthood, but fantasies do. And emotional fantasies. Sure, sure. And, and there's creativity and fantasies and things. But. But this fantasy of I'm gonna have a happy childhood. I'm trying to have a happy childhood, but every time I go back at Christmas time or the holiday time, it always ends up being a mess.

[Lewis Howes]

They just judge me or never go.

[Jerry Wise]

Down and they judge me and they do the same thing. And I try to be nicer and I bring more food or I bring the kids or whatever they're trying to do to get this so that their parents will one day go, you are.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay, so what should adult children stop trying to do with their parents?

[Jerry Wise]

Stop needing them as parents, really? When does parenting end?

[Lewis Howes]

Good question. I don't know.

[Jerry Wise]

18?

[Lewis Howes]

Is it supposed to end, though, at 18? For.

[Jerry Wise]

Aren't you going to be an adult?

[Lewis Howes]

That's the goal.

[Jerry Wise]

Adults don't need a parent, but some.

[Lewis Howes]

People live with their parents till they're 30.

[Jerry Wise]

Adults may wish or want to have mothers and fathers. I'm not saying break up your whole family because you turned 18. I'm talking about parenting. Parenting is parent to child, not parent to adult. Of course there are exceptions. Of course there are people with disabilities or I understand there's all kinds of variations, but generally if I tell people, I go, and what, what do you need your parent to do? Well, I need them to treat me. And I'm going, why do you need to treat them? Why do you need them to treat you better? Why? Well, I'll never be happy if I. There you are. You've just hooked together. You'll never be happy unless this fantasy comes true. And I can already tell you it's not going to come true because it's been going on for 35 years. And I doubt if your parents are going to just one day go, you know, could miracles happen? Of course miracles can happen. But I'm not in the miracle business. So that if they do, they do.

[Lewis Howes]

It's interesting because the people watching, listening right now, if you're listening, if you're watching this right now, I want you to leave a comment below and say if you had a happy, like, if your parents loved you, supported you, approved of you, most of the time. Comment below. Happy childhood. If you Feel like your parent. You could never get the approval of your parents. They were never satisfied with you. They're always judging and critical of you. Type in challenging childhood in the comments below. And I'm curious, what is the pro and con of having a healthy relationship with your parents versus an unhealthy relationship with your parents, wanting them to approve and love you as adults?

[Jerry Wise]

Right. Well, that's because then your self won't develop. You are living a pseudo self, waiting on them to give you a self by them going, you're wonderful and we love you. And, and the thing is, the same is true with if parents have caused trauma, once you become an adult, they can no longer fix that for you, ever. They, they could say I'm sorry, they could say they could be remorseful. But I keep telling clients or coaching people that I tell you they can't fix it. This is now yours to fix. Whatever they did is now yours to fix, not theirs to fix.

[Lewis Howes]

Even if they do, even if they do apologize, it still may not solve the problem. Yeah, you have to fix it still.

[Jerry Wise]

Exactly how does that fix it?

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Jerry Wise]

And so they always go back, I'm going to confront them and tell them and you're just going to get caught up in the system even deeper.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Jerry Wise]

You're going to, you're going to go down in the quicksand even more if you go do that. And I always tell people the time to confront people is when you don't need to. If you need to, you're probably out of sync.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Jerry Wise]

Yeah. So not that we can't confront some people or I gotta confront if they're not giving me my coffee and you know, I gotta. But generally I'm talking about this emotional stuff.

[Unknown Co-host]

You always plan to hit the gym but somehow the day just gets away from you. But with the hydro rower, there's no more debating. You just step into the room and get moving. No excuses. Whether you're training for a marathon or just trying to stay in shape, hydro meets you where you're at. It's low impact, so you don't have to worry about injuries. And it combines strength and cardio for a workout that's both tough and rewarding. The best part, Hydro offers free standard shipping, a 30 day risk free trial and a one year warranty so you can try it out with zero stress. We just got a hydro rower for our office and it has been a game changer. I've been using it just for even five to ten minutes a day to get me warmed up, to get my brain going to get my body moving and it is so smooth and powerful. It makes it so easy to squeeze in a workout or take a quick movement break when we need it. Just a few minutes on the rower between meetings helps reset my mind and keep my energy up.

[Lewis Howes]

It is the best.

[Unknown Co-host]

I'm loving the Hydro Rower. Stick to the plan and get a full body workout all from the comfort of home with Hydro. Head over to hydro.com and use code greatness to save up to four $475 off your Hydro Pro Rower. That's H Y-D R O W.com code greatness to save up to $475 hydro.com.

[Lewis Howes]

Code greatness I am blessed because I.

[Unknown Co-host]

Love what I do.

[Lewis Howes]

I get to do the things I.

[Unknown Co-host]

Enjoy on a daily basis. And if you own your own business, you know how great it is to hire employees who share that love for your company's mission and success. But how do you find passionate employees who are a good fit for all of your roles? Well, ZipRecruiter ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology works fast to find top talent so you don't waste time or money. See a candidate who'd be a perfect fit for your job. Well, you can use ZipRecruiter's pre written invite to Apply message to personally reach out to your favorite candidates. And for me, building the right team has been one of the most important steps in growing my business. It's not just about skills, it's about finding people who truly fit. So I am so, so grateful that I have ZipRecruiter's help with growing my team. Hire experienced people who are excited about what they do with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. See for yourself. Go to this exclusive web address to try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com greatness again, that's ZipRecruiter.com greatness ZipRecruiter the smartest.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Way to hire Charlie Heller is the CIA's most brilliant computer analyst whose life is turned upside down when his wife is murdered in a terrorist attack. Wrought with grief, Charlie decides her killers must pay. Without any field experience, Charlie must trek the globe and use his biggest weapon, his intelligence, to enact his revenge. Because the most unexpected threat is an amateur. Starring Academy Award winner Rami Malek and Academy Award nominee Laurence Fishburne, The Amateur rated PG13 only in theaters on IMAX April 11th.

[Lewis Howes]

You know, it's interesting that you say that I was sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know. And I've talked about it openly on this show many times. But for those that are here, the first time, it was something that haunted me for 25 years. For 25 years, I held onto it. I felt shame, I felt sadness, I felt anger, rage, all these different things. And it was a movie that played in my mind over and over again for 25 years. And it drove me, without even knowing it, unconsciously, to protect myself, to defend myself.

[Jerry Wise]

To not trust.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, not trust. If someone's trying to take advantage of me, I'm going to, you know, get big and strong and all these different things, and I need to be right and I need to win. And in some ways, it helped me accomplish certain goals, but left me feeling very empty as well.

[Jerry Wise]

Bad things have upsides. Bad things have downsides. Good things have upsides. Good things have downsides. All but. Sorry to interrupt.

[Lewis Howes]

And I got to a point when I was 30, so 25 years later, where it was too much. It was too much, and it all kind of came out right. It came out at one point after about a year of just breakdowns continuing to happen, where it forced me to look within and stop blaming everyone else of, like, why is these things happening in my life? And it got to a point where I said, okay, I'm actually going to dive deeper and start working on myself and start unpacking things from childhood and start really reflecting on these things. And I went to workshops and all the therapy, coaching, all the different things. And it got to a point where I finally opened up and talked about it in a safe environment. And then I started talking about it and letting my. My family know, some of my friends, and started talking about it publicly. And I don't think everyone should talk about their stuff publicly, but I had a platform. I felt the need to. I felt pulled to. I felt, like, inspired to. And there came to a point where maybe it was a couple years after I started to process and heal that journey and self regulate the memory and self, differentiate from that wound. Where I was like, do I need to confront this person? And I don't even know where the person is. I don't know where the person is or if they're alive or not. But I was like, what's that going to do for me? I got to a point where I was like, I don't need to, and I'm at peace with it, but what.

[Jerry Wise]

Should I do about. Yeah, that, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But I didn't feel like I need to confront this to like finish the, the job of my healing. I was like, this is my work to do and no matter what this person would say, it's not going to help me.

[Jerry Wise]

What would be the positive outcome of that? Yeah, I, I not you can if you want, but I'm just trying to think what's the utility of it if it provides some, Something. Okay. But I don't know that I would go through all the to try to find them and confront them.

[Lewis Howes]

Unless it's a family member that you want to talk about something or.

[Jerry Wise]

Right. Some ongoing relationship or something. Right.

[Lewis Howes]

This is something interesting. You said it's never too late to have a happy childhood. If we had a horrible childhood and we're in, we're 20 or in our 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and we just think, man, my childhood was miserable. It was challenging. I don't have many good memories. How can you have a good childhood as an adult if all you had is bad memories as a child?

[Jerry Wise]

Great question. When do you stop being a child?

[Lewis Howes]

When you become a parent? When you grow up, when you remove yourself from the parent.

[Jerry Wise]

When do you stop having a child inside you?

[Lewis Howes]

Never.

[Jerry Wise]

So you start your childhood now by.

[Lewis Howes]

You becoming the parent to yourself.

[Jerry Wise]

Self parenting. Re parenting. And now I'm going to ask myself, what would you like to go do to play? Because just like with a tree, a tree starts out with a little branch and grows up, be a big, big tree. But the little tree hasn't gone away. I mean it's still in there. It's still a part of the, the growth. And we're the same way. It's called our inner child. And the inner child we have all the rest of our lives. And many people actually, because of their family of origin, abuse their inner child because that's what happened when they grew up. And so they parent themselves the way their parents parented them.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

And that's the whole story of connectedness. Parents parent you, you parent you and, and that we continue on and you.

[Lewis Howes]

Parent your kids and then you parent.

[Jerry Wise]

Your kids and then adjust. So if you can get your insides straightened out, generations will be grateful.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

To you. And I literally mean generations because it probably took about five generations to get to here. This dysfunctional probably five to get here. You can change the world if you change you. And even now I still work on my self differentiation. I have a 39 year old son and I do that because I want to have as Good. A relationship as I can have with him. Because whatever issues I leave unresolved for me, who gets to resolve them?

[Lewis Howes]

Him. Wow. I saw a clip of an interview online of someone, a really successful billionaire entrepreneur, probably in his 70s, and he said the key to success in life was having adult children that still want to hang out with you. Not because of your money or your.

[Jerry Wise]

Success, but because you're a good guy.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jerry Wise]

Good person.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

And, and that's why. Right. It's not about. This is my property as the kids. They're not my property. And I would like to have a relationship where now, whenever, when I hug Andrew, I can give him a kiss on the, on the neck. And I even ask him and I told him, if you don't want me to do that, I won't. You're an adult.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

I don't want to embarrass you. He said, my friends just think it's fabulous. They wish their dad would do that. Right, Right. And so because I felt that's what I wanted to do, but I give him permission to be him. I mean, I'm not going to do something you don't want me to do.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. What I'm hearing you say is that the key, the key to setting up your family legacy to have the best or the healthiest lives they can have is to start by healing the child within you.

[Jerry Wise]

Healing the child within you and self differentiating the, the adult within you. So we have both those works.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay, let's, let's break down both going on. What, what would be the, and, and healing the child with you and you is not a, an overnight thing. What would be the keys to whether someone says I don't need to work on my inner child. That seems like baloney. Or just. It's not, it's not for me. I do a lot of my own work already. I don't need to dive deeper into this stuff. It seems like whatever. But if they were like, ah, let me listen to this and just see what he's talking about, what would be the first three keys or steps to addressing how to heal the inner child within us?

[Jerry Wise]

Well, and if they would say I don't need to work on my inner child, I would say, now you've already told me what you don't know. Because if you don't understand that or work that way, you're going to be blinded, which is your right. I mean, I live life how you want live. You don't have to do any inner child work. I'm just telling you the way human beings function, you know, and that while it is a construct or a metaphor, you know, the inner child, it is that, but it truly is a part. We are biological, we are biological creatures and, and so we have that part of us. I'm never not the 7th grader, I'm never not the 3rd grader, I'm NEVER not the 50 year old, I'm, I'm all of those. And so, but particularly in childhood is where we get a lot of that programming going on that carries over to older ages. And so when we think about would you know if your inner child wanted you to do something and if you don't know, do you think that could be problematic?

[Lewis Howes]

Probably, yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

And many people will go, I don't think I want to work on inner child stuff. That's all psychological mumbo jumbo. Okay, well that's fine. I mean you don't have to. However, when you are hyper critical of yourself and very down on yourself, who are you down on? The adult self, the inner child? Probably more likely the inner child because you're going to act like your parents to the child. Man, that's just what we do. And so knowing that can be helpful because if you become a collaborator with your inner child, it stabilizes you. If you're not, then you're always fighting yourself in business, in success, in money, in jobs, in marriages, in relationships. You're always going to be fighting yourself. And if we talk long enough, I'll prove that to you. You know, I would prove that to you. How? That's what's happening.

[Lewis Howes]

So when we are in conflict with ourselves or hyper critical of ourselves, whether it be our adult or inner child self, how is that hurting us or helping us?

[Jerry Wise]

The thing is, first of all, I might say you're not being your true self. You're being a pseudo self to yourself. You're being the family super self to yourself.

[Lewis Howes]

When you're acting that way.

[Jerry Wise]

When you're acting that way.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Jerry Wise]

That's not you. But you think it's you. And I'm going, it really isn't.

[Lewis Howes]

It's you're bringing the family rants.

[Jerry Wise]

Trance, Wi fi super self we call because all the family connects to this big super self that's all enmeshed emotionally and we even know biologically there's a way to describe it and that you're now not, you're not when somebody's gone. And I'm fine with being hypercritical of myself, I'm not going to look at my inner child. But every Time I hear you being self critical in a negative way, you know, towards yourself. I'm going, why are you not being yourself? Because would yourself do that? And they'd probably go, well, no, I wouldn't. Then, then where is that coming from? You know? Well, it's just what I've always done. Oh, now we're going to all what's always been done.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay, my point, but what's always been done doesn't mean it's the best way that you can live your life.

[Jerry Wise]

Exactly. And all of us have negative parts of all those things. But I want to have fewer, a less. I want to have less of a pseudo self, less of a non real self. That's me. And all that hypercriticalness is being the family self. That's your family self. And I'm going, you want to be successful by being your family self. And you've tell me how bad that all was. You're doing it. You're repeating it right now.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. You may not be doing this to others, but you're doing it to you.

[Jerry Wise]

Right, right. Yeah. I don't do that to other people. Okay. Do you ever do it to you? Oh, well, yeah, that's how I'm successful. Because I'm so critical of myself.

[Lewis Howes]

It helps me be driven there.

[Jerry Wise]

It helps me be driven. And like that doesn't sound like a authentic self.

[Lewis Howes]

What do you think it is? If our inner child was able to speak authentically 100% of the time and say what our inner child truly wants and desires and they had a voice, what would our inner child be saying all the time?

[Jerry Wise]

I'm always so happy that I am love now. I'm always at peace because I'm not in conflict now. I'm, I'm always looking forward to new adventures now because it's, it's life as it should be. And those kind of statements, if you're talking about the inner child talking, and thank you so much for getting the family out of you.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Jerry Wise]

And that we can just be us. We can just be a real us.

[Lewis Howes]

How does someone learn how to get the family out of them, the family dysfunction out of them, while also being a part of the family?

[Jerry Wise]

I want to learn to remain connected, which is what we call kind of emotionally connected. And I am going to be myself.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes. Which I think a lot of people struggle with, with their, their parents or family.

[Jerry Wise]

And when somebody says, so I'm going to tell you something. I want you to go home and tell your family or your parents this holiday or whenever you're going to see them. How would you feel about doing that? Like you want to change the date of when you get together for Christmas or when you. How comfort do you feel going and telling them that and this is your preference. Oh, my gosh, that's going to be a mess. And this can be a president of a company who runs people all the time, but he's going to go home and tell mom and dad, I want to. Don't want to do, you know, Christmas at the same time. We've always done it. Oh, my. You're going to. That's why. That's why we so become children when we go home.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Jerry Wise]

We just. And many people will say. Say that when I get home, I just feel like I'm back. Back in junior high or I'm back in. My parents treat me this way and, you know, here I am, the president of GM or whatever, and they're still baby. They're still babying me and think I'm an idiot. And it bothers them. And I would help them learn for it not to bother them. That's them. They're not you. Enmeshment is I am you and you are me. Non enmeshment is you are you and I am me. I am not you and you are not me. And we can have a relationship and that's a healthy relationship. Because this is not a healthy relationship. Yeah, this is not a healthy relationship. This is a healthy relationship. And you need space. You need distance and space to have closeness.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Jerry Wise]

This. You can't have closeness. You're over close. This is over distant, probably, because you're over close and you can't have closeness.

[Lewis Howes]

That's so interesting you say this, Jerry, because for those that are listening and not watching and not able to see the hand gestures, you're talking. You had your hands together, enmeshed versus far apart and then closer together but not touching. It's interesting because I left out. I left home at 13 and I. Oh, wow. And I begged my parents to send me away to a private boarding school that was about seven hours away. Begged them for a summer and they did not want me to leave, but they were. I knew my parents loved me, but I didn't feel emotionally safe in the house because of their relationship.

[Jerry Wise]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

My father was there for me. My mother was there for me at different times, but they weren't there for each other. My. You know, again, I was sexually abused by a man that I didn't know when I was five. It wasn't anyone in the Family, thankfully. And then my brother went to prison when I was eight for four and a half years. My older brother, 11 years older. So that was just a challenging season of life that the family dynamic faced. And my parents just weren't. They shouldn't have been married, essentially. They were just not happy in their marriage. They did their best, they tried, but they weren't. They eventually got divorced when I was a teenager.

[Jerry Wise]

And I do say parents are doing the best they can, 100% with the paradigm they have been given from their origin and everything. From their origin, everything else. But I'm not excusing them 100%.

[Lewis Howes]

But as a 12 and a half year old, I wanted out and get me out of here. I want to be around better environment, better friends, better everything. And I went from enmeshed to, you know, as far away as I could be. And over the years, I've had to relearn how to get closer but not, you know, not too far, but not enmeshed, but closer. Because I would go months without talking and I felt safe being alone because I felt unsafe being enmeshed. And again, I knew my parents loved me and they showed up for me and they went to my games and they did the best they could.

[Jerry Wise]

They did right.

[Lewis Howes]

But it was just like with the life experience I had. I didn't know how to navigate the emotional unsafety that I felt from their lack of love with each other and the chaos it felt like it was having. So it was years of unlearning, of healing, of all these different things to self differentiate from my childhood and from certain people in my family so that I could love myself and love them for who they are.

[Jerry Wise]

We have to accept them for who they are. And also the other thing is, this is what I will also tell people. If you accepted your parents just the way they are, what relationship would you like to have with them? But you have to accept, well, I'd get along better if they would.

[Lewis Howes]

Do they changed?

[Jerry Wise]

Yeah, yeah, they are exactly who they are and they're not going to change. What relationship do you want to have? Do you know, you can do that marital work too.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Jerry Wise]

Your wife or husband's not going to change. What relationship do you want to have with him? Well, we're here so that that changes, you know. Oh, so you came here to work with me to change him. Oh, well, that's. At least I know now what our goal is and what you were planning on.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, the impossible goal.

[Jerry Wise]

The impossible goal. And you're gonna find me to be a very inadequate coach and and you and he's gonna fail and it's gonna be a mess.

[Unknown Co-host]

Are you ready to level up your business? Intuit QuickBooks has got your back. Forget stressing over unpaid invoices or tracking expenses takes care of all that so you can focus on growing. Let QuickBooks be your all in one tool to help with the day to day tasks so you can stay focused on the big picture. Manage and grow your business all in one place. Intuit QuickBooks your way to Money Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments Inc. Licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Elevating your style used to mean breaking the bank, but with Quints you get high end versatile pieces at prices you can actually afford. Now you can upgrade your style by snagging killer luxury essentials that sync with your vibe and wallet. Quince has all the must haves like Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50, iconic 100% leather jackets and comfortable pants for every occasion. The best part? All Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands and Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. Along with premium fabrics and finishes. Quince uses high quality fabrics for all their products, not just their clothing. Martha and I recently picked out the European linen duvet cover set from Quince for our bed and it is so soft and comfortable. Indulge in affordable luxury. Go to Quince.com Lewis for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.com L E W I D to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com Lewis so instead of trying to.

[Lewis Howes]

Change our parent or change our spouse for what we don't like about them, what should we be trying to do instead to create a healthier relationship with them?

[Jerry Wise]

What if you were to mom sits down or dad sits down or whatever and they're at the table and you have coffee and go, you know, what was it like when you grew up? What was it like in your family? What did you like about it and what did you not like about it? I'm being a researcher now. I've just changed emotional location with them. I'm no longer the little child who they're going to now they may say, oh wow, we don't want to talk about any of that. Okay, well I just wanted to, I just wanted to ask. I'm not going to make them do it, but I'M now an adult and treating them as an adult. Hey, what. What was it like during the war? My parents would be older and they. And, you know, and what was it like going through the depression and. And those kind of things? Because I've changed my emotional location. I'm no longer this little boy, and they're this. These parents that are. Have to talk to me like an adult because I'm asking an adult thing and I'm asking something about them and that I've changed something that has changed. That will change the dynamic. And there are many other ways to change the dynamic, too, to learn how to, you know, even if it's a. Well, I remember my own example of. I was a pastor for many years, and I had. My father died. It fell on me to give the. Now who's going to give the family prayer at the meal? Well, it's going to be. I'm the youngest, but I was the only one who was in religious circles in that way, so it has to be me. And mom assumed it would be me. I didn't want to do it.

[Lewis Howes]

Really? Even though you were in the.

[Jerry Wise]

Even though I'm not the family's pastor.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Jerry Wise]

I'm Jerry. I'm not the youngest. I'm the youngest. I. What. Why am I. You know, because everyone just wanted it taken away from them. So I told mom several times before the meal, I'm. I don't wish to do this. That's not my preference. And she just ignore it.

[Lewis Howes]

And.

[Jerry Wise]

Oh, and just do it anyways. Just do it anyway. And blah, blah, blah, blah, Mom. And several times to prepare, because I know it's changed. So when we got to the time, we're all standing there, all around the table. She looks at me and goes.

[Lewis Howes]

Jerry.

[Jerry Wise]

Would you like to.

[Lewis Howes]

Did you give in?

[Jerry Wise]

And what I said, this is one of my major steps of self differentiation. Mom. We had discussed this several times, and one of my preferences is this is not what I wanted to do.

[Lewis Howes]

Ooh, rough on the feathers over here.

[Jerry Wise]

So I just wanted to. To share that and then shut up.

[Lewis Howes]

And then everyone's waiting to eat. The food is out.

[Jerry Wise]

Everybody's going, we don't do that in our family.

[Lewis Howes]

So you started to break the cycle a little bit and in critics.

[Jerry Wise]

Well, our family was never the same. Really. Never the same?

[Lewis Howes]

Well, you lose a parent, you're gonna. I mean, it's never the same, you know, but.

[Jerry Wise]

But that someone would say no. Wow. And so mom went ahead and gave, and then it was shared around, and nobody asked me but then I could say, hey, I'd be happy to do that today if you'd like me to do it, because now I'm doing it because I'm choosing it or want to, but it's not. Here's your role. You do this role, Jerry, and be happy.

[Lewis Howes]

So your mom, did she get upset with you when you didn't do this? Did she give you a stare? Did she.

[Jerry Wise]

Well, yes. She gave me a look like. Like, you don't. We don't do that.

[Lewis Howes]

But then you said, I'm not. I'm not. I'm gonna. I'm gonna clear my boundary.

[Jerry Wise]

It was just to. To state my position. And then the hardest thing to do was to stay quiet, not apologize, save anybody from this.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

Interesting. That's self differentiation in the family.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

Because I'm changing my dynamic in the family. I would have said, oh, no, it's going to be okay, or, okay, I'll do it today. But, you know, I don't want anybody to feel bad, and I don't.

[Unknown Co-host]

Wow.

[Lewis Howes]

How old were you at this time? Do you remember? Roughly?

[Jerry Wise]

Probably in my 20s.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, wow. Okay. And you were the youngest of.

[Jerry Wise]

And I was the youngest of three.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

Well. And then I thought, my brother's not gonna like this. My. Nobody's gonna like this because. And look, she's just lost her husband.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, man.

[Jerry Wise]

We lost her dad. And now I look at you being a little brat. You know, being a little brat. All the ro. Going to come out, and I'm going, but I can't care about that.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

That I'm not their little brat. They can think of me as a little brat.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

They are. Not me. I am not them.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

I'm not a little brat. I have a purpose to. Because mom always used to guilt me into shame. Guilt me into singing because I did professional music and I sang and I did things like that and went to music school, and Lord knows what it. And. And so she. Oh, Jerry, you. You have to sing for everybody. I don't want.

[Lewis Howes]

Sometimes maybe you do. Sometimes I don't.

[Jerry Wise]

And I. I'm not here to be the. The. The puppet, the monkey on a. You know. You know. Okay, Jerry, now perform. You know.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

And. And I never could say no. It was so hard. Oh, it was just.

[Unknown Co-host]

When did you.

[Lewis Howes]

Did you finally say no or no?

[Jerry Wise]

Well, to the family prayer. It was the beginning of.

[Lewis Howes]

And then you started to stand for yourself.

[Jerry Wise]

Then I'm going, this is the new jury boundaries. And I'm not going to get reactive. I'm not going to be mad that mom didn't listen to me before we got there and that she would rescue me from this moment by not asking me because I knew she wasn't going to rescue me from this moment. But I don't need to be mad at her. She just had her plan, I have mine.

[Unknown Co-host]

Wow.

[Lewis Howes]

So it sounds like what I'm hearing you say is you can't expect to change your parents, you can't expect to change your spouse or your partner, but you can change the dynamic you have with your parents or your spouse.

[Jerry Wise]

Exactly.

[Lewis Howes]

And when you start to do that, you're self differentiating from a dynamic that once was into a new dynamic.

[Jerry Wise]

And they can't stop that dynamic change.

[Lewis Howes]

They might throw a fuss.

[Jerry Wise]

They could throw a fuss.

[Lewis Howes]

They might scream.

[Jerry Wise]

They might scream silent treatment. Well, we also have three levels of resistance.

[Lewis Howes]

What are those?

[Jerry Wise]

That if you go through those three level resistance, you'll come out at a higher level. First level is Jerry, why are you saying no, you won't do this? Second stage of resistance is Jerry, no, you need to be doing this and I'll be upset if you don't. Third, do this or else. Oh, and if you can say self differentiated through all three levels, you'll start here, go up the levels and end up here in the family. Not here, but here. Because they can't, they can't control you at home. They can't control my dynamic of the family. They can control. They can yell and scream and do all that. But this family is now different because I'm different.

[Lewis Howes]

Let's go.

[Jerry Wise]

And I'm still connected, right? If I'm not connected, then it. You don't have the power. There's. The emphasis is not there. But if I'm still connected, they, they. And you could become a scapegoat. You could become. I mean, that's, that's one of the. Then we'll make you the scapegoat and you can go, that's fine if you need to do that. And I'm going to continue to be me and I can love you. And if that's what you need to do, then. And then we have to be patient and let time. And now they have to decide, do we want to lose him or do we not? The burden's on them now, not on me.

[Lewis Howes]

Can we change to accept him?

[Jerry Wise]

Can we change to accept him? And that's their choice that they get to decide that?

[Lewis Howes]

Well, here's an interesting question for you as someone who has worked with individuals and family dysfunctional families for 45 plus years, coaching, therapy, all these different things helping them heal and self differentiate. I hope to be a parent one day. And for those watching or listening who are parents, what's the best way they can set up their family to be as healthy as possible for their children to thrive and also love and accept each other and have a healthy family dynamic where if someone's got some older kids and they realize, oh, maybe I've done some stuff and many have, I have too. And they're in their teens now, how can I start to change the family dynamic so that my kids feel empowered to be themselves within the family as well?

[Jerry Wise]

And what I tell everybody, I understand that and that's a excellent goal. And in fact it's never too late. People even say, well, I'm 70 now, how can I? So aren't you still a biological human being? I mean you, you still are our cell in this whole world of a universe we have. So you're still functioning in that. So you can change. Now some people can't change because very real limitations and I understand even some narcissists, they're so broken because of that. But you can change. And that what we want to do is focus on whatever you want for your kids, you must obtain for yourself. H. So it's not, it's not what you teach them, it's what you be to them that's much more powerful than anything you say.

[Lewis Howes]

Can you give some examples?

[Jerry Wise]

Well, people will. Now you need to. Da, da. You ought not do that. You ought not do that. And, but, but the thing is, if I am mature, if I am less reactive, if I am more calm, if I am more thoughtful, if I am able to see a more clear view of how all the system works in my relationships that comes through because of the connectedness and that's the more powerful dynamic than all the book reading you do about how you tell people as a marriage and family therapist. People are always asking me about parental advice, you know, and there's good advice out there. You can read tons of books on parental advice. But my, but the thing is, if the envelope is bad, then the message in it is going to have a good message in a bad envelope. I'm talking about changing the envelope. Then you put the good message in. It's, it's all different because, and so many just go, well, I'm going to give them this envelope. But you're living like crap. You hate yourself and you're telling them you need to love yourself, you need to bad envelope Right. Message, let's get good envelope. I'm not going to tell you to love yourself. I'm going to love myself.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, you need the messenger to be in alignment with the message.

[Jerry Wise]

Exactly.

[Lewis Howes]

Now, so it sounds like step one, if you want to be a great parent, start reparenting yourself and healing the inner child. Step two, learn self differentiation from your own family as well.

[Jerry Wise]

Absolutely.

[Lewis Howes]

But self differentiation, it starts with like these small courageous steps. It sounds like it doesn't have to be I'm going to explode the family dynamic overnight. But it's like, like mom wants me to do this and she's been wanting to do it my whole life and I've always done it and I'm not going to do it anymore. Dad wants me to do this and I'm going to say, hey, that doesn't work for me anymore. Whatever it is, it's the small resistances.

[Jerry Wise]

And then what I've found is as you are self aware, becoming self regulated and becoming self differentiated. Those are kind of the three aware, regulated, differentiated, as you're doing those three and we can learn how to do those three, those three, that it is better for it to take longer and be right and actually effective than to then go quick fix or shorter and you go over and come back to the same spot. The other weird thing about change, and again, I've. That's kind of been my whole thing all my life is how do I change? And then as professional, how do I change other people or help them change or whether I'm changing them or whatever. How, how does change work, change? Also many people go, well, that can take a while. It also can take two seconds and you're never the same. Now why is that? That's a, that's a change. People will tell me that all the time that I, I've never been the same since that. Well, that's a pretty quick change. Yeah, I decided that's a pretty quick awareness that you, you had. So there's a long work and then along the work, along the way, you'll have these moments of just, I'm just, just so different, you know, and, and I think that's really a cool part of the work that I help people with and.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Cause one of the, one of the challenges I felt like I lived with, and I think a lot of people probably lived with when they had dysfunctional families is trying to keep the peace. It's trying not, it's trying to not upset mom or upset dad or upset your siblings. It's like do what you need to in your role to keep the peace.

[Jerry Wise]

That's why we have roles. Roles is to make the family continue to operate in its dysfunctional wedding.

[Lewis Howes]

But don't we need roles too? In like relationships, aren't there supposed to be roles and like how to support one another or agreements?

[Jerry Wise]

That's not a role, that's a self. Myself and my values and my beliefs, I'm going to support you.

[Lewis Howes]

Gotcha.

[Jerry Wise]

And that's not a role I'm playing. That's my genuine beliefs.

[Lewis Howes]

So when we're playing a role, what are we doing?

[Jerry Wise]

Being a pseudo self. A role as a pseudo self. Golden child is a pseudo self.

[Lewis Howes]

Problem child.

[Jerry Wise]

Problem child is a pseudo self. I'm not saying they really didn't come out of a family where that was emphasized. I'm not saying it didn't really happen. But I think once you realize, you know that's not you, you know that's not you. I know that's the way you've lived and that's what everybody's always said you were, but it's really not who you are. And so with roles, I, I think of roles as being a pseudo self. What we want to do is to be our authentic selves.

[Lewis Howes]

Not a pseudo self.

[Jerry Wise]

Not a pseudo self. Oh, I know you were saying you're to please. We're going to please. That's a pseudo self. And why am I Mr. Pleaser, which I was absolutely was codependent. Mr. Pleaser. Oh my gosh. It was just.

[Lewis Howes]

Why is that to seek approval? Is it to certainly survival.

[Jerry Wise]

And I think when you say seek, approve. I don't know. I used to teach codependency, have codependency groups. And so I know all the symptoms of codependency and all that. That. However, at the bottom line of it is it's the family's chronic anxiety, which you're not aware of, that pushes you to then go, oh, I need to get approval or I need to be pleasing. So we need to reduce the chronic anxiety. So you're not doing the pleasing part.

[Lewis Howes]

How do you reduce the chronic anxiety of a family dynamic?

[Jerry Wise]

First of all, you have to recognize it. You have to recognize what's underneath. You're pleasing, you're withdrawing, you're overcompensating. Your hyper functioning, you're under functioning. Under functioning comes because of anxiety. All of these come because of chronic anxiety. Anxiety is a bedrock of life. That's how life got started. That's, that's. But. And we have a brain that functions that way. Too. But we don't want to function out of our old brain. We want to function out of our new brain. All of this stuff has to do with our old brain. It's the old brain. And. And so you feel like you're in a room with a tiger. Well, why do you feel like you're in a room with a tiger when there's no tiger there? Because a million years ago, you needed that. You needed that anxiety to save yourself. Now we have the experience of it, but it's not there. And so we have to learn to operate with our brain better.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

And so I think whatever. I. And I didn't realize this. Oh. Being like a mascot. I was also a mascot. And so I would get nervous many lives, Jerry. I would get nervous and in a group or in a therapy group or a supervision group or whatever we do. And if. And if it was tensioned, what would I break it with? A joke or making fun? And I was serving a function with that.

[Lewis Howes]

Playing a role.

[Jerry Wise]

I'm playing a role. But it was my anxiety I wasn't managing. I can't deal with your tension, so I'm going to be funny if I begin to learn. Well, I need to let them have their tension. Why do I need to rescue them from this tension with my humor? And also, it doesn't get us anywhere. I mean, I can. And there's a time to reduce tension. There's. And I've done that certainly, legitimately.

[Unknown Advertiser]

But.

[Jerry Wise]

But whatever we do over function or under function comes out of the anxiety that we're. That we're not. Most of what's happening with you, you haven't learned to. To understand why it happens, and you're just living your life as. As you should. But if I started helping you understand the underlying anxiety, you go, oh, I think you're right. That is. That was my anxiety. Oh, that was my anxiety. That. And it's the chronic anxiety from over here at the family that we. We inherit that anxiety, and we inherit that level of self differentiation. So if they're twos on a 10 scale, what do you think we're going to be?

[Lewis Howes]

Two.

[Jerry Wise]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

In self differentiation.

[Jerry Wise]

In self differentiation. Not as. I'm not talking morally, spiritually. And so we want to work on raising that number while staying connected. And then my fourness helps them become two and a quarter. Right.

[Lewis Howes]

Right. Barely. You're not even barely changed.

[Jerry Wise]

Barely.

[Lewis Howes]

Maybe they shift the role a little bit.

[Jerry Wise]

And I'm not even trying to change them. That's not my. That's not even my but because we are connected, it's going to have an.

[Unknown Co-host]

We all take supplements or at least we know we should. But why are so many supplement companies charging ridiculous prices for products that really aren't that special? It's frustrating and frankly unacceptable. LiveGood is a brand that believes everyone deserves access to high quality supplements without the insane markups they offer. Premium products formulated by an industry leading team of natural health experts at the lowest prices anywhere. Live Good also has collagen, weight loss products, protein powder, skin care products and more. All high quality products at prices people can actually afford. And I've been trying their organic super greens and loving it. It helps fill in the gaps when I'm not eating enough fruits and veggies and keeps up my energy. I just mix a scoop into my smoothie or water every day and it's been super easy to add my routine.

[Lewis Howes]

And I feel great.

[Unknown Co-host]

Ready to start saving? Just go to livegood.com greatness to save 10% on your first order. That's livegood.com sl greatness this show is sponsored by Better Help. My support system. My friends, my mentors, my therapists have been everything. When I hit rock bottom in my life, asking for help wasn't weakness, it was the key to my comeback. Think about your favorite leaders, mentors and idols. They don't have all the answers, but they do know when to ask questions or seek support from their community. In a society that glorifies hyper independence, it's easy to forget that we're all better when we have a support system behind us. Therapy can be a source of support for any area of your life. It's time to shift the focus from doing it all to knowing that we're better when we ask for help. BetterHelp is fully online making therapy affordable and convenient. Serving over 5 million people worldwide. Access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com Louis to get 10% off your first month.

[Lewis Howes]

Month.

[Unknown Co-host]

That's Better Help.

[Lewis Howes]

H E L p.com Lewis impact yeah, it's interesting. You talked about inheriting the family enmeshment until we are self aware. Learn to self regulate and self differentiate. We're going to inherit this family dynamic, this dysfunction it sounds like. Here's a scary question. Can you inherit narcissism from a parent if you have a narcissistic parent?

[Jerry Wise]

Well, that's a science question and and we don't know the cause of narcissism. Certainly we can say a narcissistic parent who is abusive and blah blah can create a narcissist. But there are so many layers of things going on from genetics to how the body affects with environment, affects in their environment, to parenting to family dynamics, to trans or intergenerational stuff that comes to biochemistry to. And, and we don't have one good thing go this causes narcissism. And there are so many people that just say a narcissism is caused by a narcissist. That has not been my experience. Now are narcissists. Can narcissists have narcissists? Yes, of course they can have narcissists. But you're just painting a simplified view of it. And I don't think that's accurate because there's so many dynamics that can affect someone being a narcissist. Why is someone BPD or bipolar or why is someone. You know, there's just, we're, we're a complicated organism. And so I think it, and I don't think there's any one study that says this is what it. That would be probably irresponsible because that's not what the science.

[Lewis Howes]

With all of your work as a therapist, a family therapist and a family dysfunctional dynamics that you've experienced and studied and supported for the last 45 years, if you were to design a narcissistic kid to grow up and be narcissistic, what would be the elements? Not that you would do this, but if you're like, hey, if you do these things and this and this and this, you might create a narcissist.

[Jerry Wise]

Well, there's some classic things we think about. No boundaries, overindulging, get whatever you want boiling, whatever you want. Maybe throw in some abuse. I, I think those would be some good kind of kind of things.

[Lewis Howes]

No consequences.

[Jerry Wise]

No consequences. Also, many times shaming does is a part of that soup that goes in there. But again it, it's, it's already baked into the cake in the families because.

[Lewis Howes]

It was passed down already.

[Jerry Wise]

It was passed down already. It's already passed down. And so those would be some things I'd be less. I would not want to do right with my child. Sure that they do need a sense of self, but not a sense of self absorption.

[Lewis Howes]

I think, I think one that I want to ask you is how can someone with narcissistic parents set healthy boundaries as an adult where they stay connected to their parent, but they're not enmeshed with that parent anymore. And they don't play the role that they've been playing for a long time.

[Jerry Wise]

The way we do that is by inner boundaries.

[Lewis Howes]

Inner boundaries first.

[Jerry Wise]

Inner boundaries first versus external boundaries. Because if you build your inner boundaries first, you'll be able to hold to your outer boundaries. If you don't, those are just. They're not going to work. You're not going to hold them. So inner boundaries. When I think of inner boundaries, I think of. Of learning to detach, learning to de enmesh, learning to I am not you, you are not me. And so if I want to maintain those boundaries, you have to learn to not care.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow, that's tough.

[Jerry Wise]

And the caring part is the dysfunctional part. Now, doesn't sound weird me saying caring parts, the dysfunctional part. But it is, is. It absolutely is the dysfunctional part.

[Lewis Howes]

But these are your parents. They've given you so much. They've supported your whole life.

[Jerry Wise]

Tell them thank you for that.

[Lewis Howes]

Right. Then you don't owe them anything else.

[Jerry Wise]

When do we stop owing our parents? When do we.

[Lewis Howes]

I guess. I guess 18.

[Jerry Wise]

I don't know.

[Lewis Howes]

Is that what you're saying? Is that the age?

[Unknown Co-host]

I don't know.

[Jerry Wise]

Well, I don't think we ever owe them anything. No, that's the thing. We should say we. That's what I'm saying, because we never owe them anything. It. I didn't choose to get born. They had a child and they chose right. That was their choice. And the law says they have to take care of me and raise me. And I, I didn't.

[Lewis Howes]

But it seems like there's this unspoken agreement or expectation that the child is supposed to take care of the. Look at all I've done for you.

[Jerry Wise]

All I've done for you. And I would say, I can't tell you how much I have appreciated that. And they would say, but you owe me your life.

[Lewis Howes]

I don't know.

[Jerry Wise]

Or you owe me to do this now.

[Lewis Howes]

You need to take care of me because I took care of you.

[Jerry Wise]

Right. And, and, and the thing is, me taking care of you has to do with my values, my morals and my choices. And that I. I have no trouble doing that. However, it depends on what kind of relationship we're going to have. And if our relationship is only an evil one, then probably other means need to be worked out for your sake of being taken care of.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

Because I'm not going to. I'm not going to completely blow up my life and my emotional inner peace. I can live without family. I can't live without inner peace.

[Lewis Howes]

Otherwise you're just continuing the cycle of enmeshment, generational trauma, and you're showing the next generation how to treat each other.

[Jerry Wise]

And on a billboard.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes. Gosh. But it just seems so hard for people because they're like, well, this is how it's always been.

[Jerry Wise]

And I would never say it's not hard. And I never look at people and go, oh well, that should just be easy. And many times people say, oh well, you just make it sound so easy. Easy. This was hard fought easy. This wasn't easy for me. This there wasn't I. No, no. And I'm not suggesting you should just be there without any struggle. However, I'm trying to give you a framework with which to work with. If you didn't have to take care of your parents, would you. Or if they are narcissistic parents, which. And I'm for kids taking care of their parents. I'm not anti family or anti. I want families to be together. I want them to love each other. But if you have two malignant narcissists now, what kind of caregiving relationship do you want to have with them? You have to decide because you're your own agent. I mean it can't be based on whatever they say do or then you're back to being a pseudo self and.

[Lewis Howes]

You'Re acting like a child and you're.

[Jerry Wise]

Acting like a child and they're the.

[Lewis Howes]

Parent and they're in control. They're pressuring you or judging you well.

[Jerry Wise]

And they'll be leading you around by the nose if that, if they're bad narcissistic parents, it's going to be so it's that because you're going to have to live with your choices, they have to live with theirs. And in fact, they've made maybe bad choices for the last many decades. Is it your time now to make up for that? How do you make up for their bad choices over two decades and decades? I don't know how to do that.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

Does that mean. And I took care of my mother. Everybody's got to decide for themselves. And also I knew if I was going to do that that I needed inner boundaries. For yourself?

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

I had to have inner boundaries if I was going to do that, that it just wasn't going to matter. And you know, well, why don't you come visit me more at the nursing home. She was, she mentally was there all that. Just physically couldn't do it. And I would visit her on a regular basis. But it was never enough. Really never enough.

[Lewis Howes]

Even if it went every day for.

[Jerry Wise]

Months, it was still never be enough.

[Lewis Howes]

But you have to create inner boundaries first.

[Jerry Wise]

And I have to decide how much do I want to. Right.

[Lewis Howes]

Not because she's guilting me.

[Jerry Wise]

Not because of guilting and shaming. And so I'm going, so if I don't, what does she think about me? I'm being a bad son.

[Lewis Howes]

And you have to stop caring about that.

[Jerry Wise]

And, well, I could even not care about it by totally accepting it. Wow. Hey, Mom, I know this is not what you would like. And I know you think I'm being a bad son because I'm not doing what Stan and Janet are doing with their mother down the hallway, who is in my class, you know, whatever. And they. They could visit every day and. But they had a different relationship with their mom than I had with my mom. So it's a different family, you know, they want to visit every day. That's pretty wonderful. And so I'm okay with being the bad son here.

[Lewis Howes]

Just as you've accepted that your mother's perception of you was you were not good enough or not being the good son and you learned to accept her perspective or perception of you. You didn't have to agree with it.

[Jerry Wise]

I don't have to agree. I didn't agree with it at all.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, yeah, but.

[Jerry Wise]

And the same is true with tug of war. When you have a tug of war, if I accept it, I can drop the rope. And I just dropped the rope with Mom. I'm the bad son. It's such a shame that God gave you a bad son like me. He shows up every week for you. He shows up every week to visit you, and he won't do it any more often than that.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

And it. I just can't imagine how awful that is.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Such a tough life. Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

Sorry.

[Lewis Howes]

What if she keeps shaming you and making you wrong constantly? How do you know?

[Jerry Wise]

So you would like me to visit you less?

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

Is that what you're asking?

[Lewis Howes]

Isn't it interesting? The more you appreciate anyone, whether it's a parent, child, you know, sibling relationship, whatever, the more you appreciate someone, typically, that relationship appreciates in value. It grows in value because it feels appreciated. When you shame, belittle, make wrong, it diminishes in value.

[Jerry Wise]

It diminishes.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Unknown Co-host]

It's like.

[Lewis Howes]

Like you don't want to be around that anymore.

[Jerry Wise]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

Or you don't feel good when you are around, you're regretting Having to show up, you're like resistant to it.

[Jerry Wise]

Well, and actually if you use a cancer model, all of this narcissism, criticism, negative and dysfunctional stuff that's coming is a metastasis of the emotional cancer and it metastasizes. And you're supposed to come join this. Well, I don't want to join this. I don't want to be a part of this and I'm not going to be. And that, I'm not going to call you cancer. I mean, I don't need, I don't need, I don't have to disrespect or be mean to people, but I need to recognize what's going on and that because all of this is all pseudo self, that's cancerous, that can just gobble me right up. And no, we're, we're going to keep this at, at bay.

[Lewis Howes]

That's powerful.

[Jerry Wise]

And, and you can hold on to your pseudo self of being a narcissist or a mean person or an unloving parent or you can, that's your free to do that. And I've just put a block there when I've said you're free to do that. And I'm over here.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, self differentiation, that's powerful, Jerry. This has been powerful. And I want people to follow you over on YouTube, Jerrywise and everywhere else. Jerrywiserelationshipsystems.com you've got a free training on your site as well where people can go through more of your systems and your processes for understanding how to navigate dysfunctional family relationships, how to start healing, how to start becoming more self aware, self regulated, differentiated, all these different things. I want people to go to your website and check this out. You're all over social media as well. Again, Jerry Wise, and you've got just a wealth of information on how to navigate probably one of the most challenging things, which is family dynamics and, and the dynamic you have with your inner child and self. And so I want to acknowledge you for the decades of service you've had towards understanding, researching and helping human beings find more peace and harmony in their relationships. Because like you said, I think the most important thing in the world is the family units and having families be healthy and happy and individualistic as well within a family so they can be authentic and not a pseudo self. So I want to acknowledge you for the work, the journey and the commitment you have to helping families heal in a world where it seems like there's a lot of stress and chaos in families and there's two Final questions I have for you. This one is a hypothetical question I ask everyone at the end of our conversations. It's called the three Truths. So imagine you get to live as long as you want, Jerry, but it's the last day in the future for you, and you get to accomplish everything you want and see the people in your life flourish. And everything else all comes true. But on the last day for you, you have to take all of your work with you. So this conversation is gone. All the content you've ever put out there. No one has access to your content anymore. But on the last day, you get to leave behind three final lessons and we would have access to this information. What would be those three lessons to the world or three truths?

[Jerry Wise]

Remember that you can't solve the problem using the thinking and emotional dynamics that have caused it. So you cannot break out of the box by using everything you know in the box. 2. Family is everything. Whether you believe it or not, that truth is not going to change. You can resist it, you can, you can do whatever you want with it, but because of who you are and as a human being and growing up in that social unit that has mental and emotional dynamics that go on the rest of your life. So family is everything. Thirdly, calmness is everything. If you want to be less enmeshed, stay more calm, because reactivity will only make you enmesh more. So if you're being reactive, you're probably enmeshing more. You're not de enmeshing. I didn't say be a doormat. I didn't say be. But calmness is everything. And if you are calm, you can think, you can regulate your emotions better, you can regulate your thoughts better, and you can see things more clearly. So I have, and I have a video on calmness is everything. But it, it's just so critical. That's beautiful for a family systems perspective.

[Lewis Howes]

Beautiful. And final question, Jerry, what's your definition of greatness?

[Jerry Wise]

Oh, I think greatness would be finding the true and authentic you. I mean, that's that I don't care how much money you make, I don't care how many, you know, companies you own. I don't, you know, I've got wealthy clients, I've got poor clients. What are you giving to yourself? Because that will make the world greater if you do that. And that's what I always felt, is that the more I can be more self differentiated, caring myself, aware of myself, I would be able to love differently, give differently, express myself differently in a way that is world enriching. Rather than world detracting.

[Lewis Howes]

Jerry Wise thanks so much for being here. I appreciate it.

[Jerry Wise]

Thank you Louis. I've really enjoyed it very much.

[Lewis Howes]

Powerful. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy and if you are looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment. Moving forward, we have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to the next episode on the School of Greatness.

[Unknown Co-host]

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

[Lewis Howes]

Greatness.

[Unknown Co-host]

Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode. Episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter and now it's time to go out there and do something great.

[Unknown Advertiser]

I know I'm not alone when I say adulting can be overwhelming and what we all could use is a drink. That's where Apple and Eve Juice comes in. As the rulers of the juice box, they've been making juice joyful for 50 years with refreshing juice blends bursting with bold flavor. One sip sends you right back to childhood. So when the grind dulls your shine, remember to kid yourself. Apple and Eve has delicious juices for at home, home and on the go shop Today this season, a new hot deal has arrived at Metro. $25 a line for four lines with all the data you need and four free Samsung Galaxy A15.5G phones. Getting Metro's best deals is easy. No ID required, no activation fees. Get a new number or keep your own. It's up to you. That's four lines for $25 a line plus four free phones. Visit a store or go online today only at Metro by T Mobile when you join Metro Plus Tax for a limited time and subject to change max one offer per account.