Mark Manson: The Psychological Skills To Master For Fulfilling Relationships, Inner Peace & Abundance

Summary

The School of Greatness Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Mark Manson: The Psychological Skills To Master For Fulfilling Relationships, Inner Peace & Abundance
Host: Lewis Howes
Guest: Mark Manson
Release Date: March 26, 2025

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Overview

In this compelling episode of "The School of Greatness," host Lewis Howes invites renowned author and content creator Mark Manson to discuss the essential psychological skills that foster fulfilling relationships, inner peace, and abundance. Drawing from his personal experiences and extensive research, Mark Manson offers deep insights into self-awareness, the art of receiving feedback, effective communication, and the importance of setting boundaries. This conversation is packed with actionable advice and profound reflections that aim to empower listeners to enhance their personal and professional lives.

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1. Introduction to Mark Manson

Mark Manson, best known for his New York Times bestseller "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck," shares his journey of becoming a prolific author and content creator. With over 10 million copies sold, Mark has established himself as a leading voice in the self-help and personal development space.

2. The Foundation of Self-Awareness [05:07]

Mark emphasizes that self-awareness is the cornerstone of personal growth and effective problem-solving. Without recognizing one's own issues or behavioral patterns, individuals cannot address or improve their situations.

Mark Manson [05:07]: "If you're not aware of a problem in your life or a tendency in your life, you can't do anything about it."

He explains that developing self-awareness often involves facing uncomfortable truths about oneself, which many people naturally avoid.

3. Embracing and Utilizing Feedback [11:52]

The conversation shifts to the crucial role of feedback in personal development. Mark highlights the importance of receiving honest and constructive criticism from trusted sources to foster growth.

Mark Manson [14:09]: "A lot of people don't have people around themselves that will give them honest feedback."

He shares his own evolution in accepting feedback, illustrating how it has been instrumental in his journey toward self-improvement.

4. Mastering Effective Communication [47:07]

Mark discusses the significance of effective communication in relationships. He advises distinguishing between criticizing a person's actions or ideas and judging the person themselves, advocating for respectful and constructive dialogue.

Mark Manson [48:12]: "That opinion doesn't resonate with me."

Mark Manson [47:49]: "We have to teach ourselves to separate the idea from the person."

This approach helps maintain respect and understanding, even amidst disagreements.

5. Navigating Social Anxiety and Personal Relationships [06:58]

Mark delves into how social anxiety can hinder the formation and maintenance of personal relationships. He recounts his own experiences of being avoidant in relationships and the steps he took to overcome this pattern, emphasizing the role of self-awareness and intentionality.

6. Setting Boundaries and Letting Go [10:26]

The importance of setting boundaries in relationships is a key theme. Mark shares his strategy of accepting his wife's differences and setting clear criteria for ending relationships based on meaningful reasons rather than trivial disputes.

Mark Manson [11:26]: "You love who's in front of you. You don't love who they might be, who they could be, who you wish they could be."

This acceptance leads to more harmonious relationships and personal peace.

7. Critique of Overused Self-Help Concepts [56:00]

Mark critiques the pervasive use and often misapplication of concepts like narcissism and manifestation in the self-help industry. He warns against labeling individuals as narcissists without proper context and understanding, arguing that it can become a convenient excuse to avoid addressing real issues in relationships.

Mark Manson [56:26]: "People are using narcissism as an excuse to exit difficult situations and difficult relationships that in reality could probably be improved."

Regarding manifestation, Mark clarifies that what is often termed as manifestation aligns more accurately with the psychological concept of confirmation bias.

Mark Manson [59:11]: "It's confirmation bias."

He argues that focusing on goals can heighten awareness and recognition of opportunities, rather than attributing success to mystical forces.

8. The Value of Therapy [50:30]

Mark shares his transformative experience with therapy, highlighting how it helped him uncover and address deep-seated childhood issues. This self-exploration was pivotal in his journey toward greater self-awareness and improved relationships.

Mark Manson [55:39]: "This is rocky waters. Yeah, this is all splashing around and messed up."

He credits therapy with facilitating significant personal growth and better understanding of his own behaviors.

9. Embracing Self-Acceptance and "I Am Enough" [68:29]

A profound segment of the conversation revolves around the concept of self-acceptance. Mark and Lewis discuss the importance of feeling "I am enough," a state where external achievements do not dictate one's self-worth.

Mark Manson [68:29]: "I have enough. I've done enough, and I am enough."

This acceptance leads to genuine happiness and inner peace, free from the incessant need to prove oneself.

10. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Mark Manson's insights offer a roadmap for listeners to cultivate essential psychological skills. By fostering self-awareness, embracing constructive feedback, communicating effectively, setting healthy boundaries, and practicing self-acceptance, individuals can enhance their relationships and achieve lasting inner peace and abundance.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mark Manson [05:07]: "If you're not aware of a problem in your life or a tendency in your life, you can't do anything about it."

• Mark Manson [14:09]: "A lot of people don't have people around themselves that will give them honest feedback."

• Mark Manson [47:49]: "We have to teach ourselves to separate the idea from the person."

• Mark Manson [56:26]: "People are using narcissism as an excuse to exit difficult situations and difficult relationships that in reality could probably be improved."

• Mark Manson [59:11]: "It's confirmation bias."

• Mark Manson [68:29]: "I have enough. I've done enough, and I am enough."

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Final Thoughts

Mark Manson's candid reflections and practical advice provide listeners with invaluable tools to navigate life's complexities. This episode serves as a powerful guide for anyone seeking to improve their psychological well-being, cultivate meaningful relationships, and attain a state of inner peace and abundance.

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Connect with Mark Manson:

• Website: markmanson.net
• YouTube: Search for "Mark Manson"
• Instagram: @markmanson

Further Resources:

• Book: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck
• Podcast: Mark Manson Podcast

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Empower Yourself Today

Embrace the psychological skills discussed by Mark Manson to unlock your inner greatness. Cultivate self-awareness, seek and utilize feedback, communicate with intention, set healthy boundaries, and most importantly, accept that you are enough. Start your journey towards a more fulfilling and abundant life today.

Transcript

[Lewis Howes]

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To this episode on the School of Greatness.

[Mark Manson]

It's unrealistic to expect that you're going to connect or see eye to eye with every single person that you ever meet. You actually don't want everybody to be your friend because then you don't really stand for anything, right? With such a prolific author and content creator, he wrote the infamous book the Subtle Art of Not Giving a which many consider to be the generation defining self help book sold over 10 million copies.

[Lewis Howes]

Subtle art of Not Giving Up I'm.

[Mark Manson]

Really trying not to say the word Mark Manson. There's a lot of statistics around kids cutting off their parents and it really makes me uncomfortable because you can have really terrible parents, but you can manage that relationship and manage your exposure to them in a way that you don't have to eliminate them from your life permanently.

[Lewis Howes]

You can create a boundary.

[Mark Manson]

Exactly. I've got a whole rant about manifestation.

[Lewis Howes]

Which my audience loves. Manifestation.

[Mark Manson]

I know they do.

[Lewis Howes]

It's going to trigger everyone.

[Mark Manson]

I know they do trigger. Warning. Mark's coming in on the manifestation.

[Lewis Howes]

Let's hear it.

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[Lewis Howes]

Welcome back everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have my friend Mark Manson in the house who's been on the New York Times bestseller list for I think six years now. Is that right? About six years off and on. 360 weeks.

[Mark Manson]

If you, somewhere around there, if you add everything together, it's, it's like 330, 340 weeks.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay. I gave you that extra few hundred few weeks. Okay. But it's amazing what you've created. Number one, your time bestseller multiple times. And I love seeing your journey.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

What were you gonna say?

[Mark Manson]

I was, I was gonna say this is my fourth time on the show or time.

[Lewis Howes]

Let's go, baby.

[Mark Manson]

Has anybody been on more? Can I be the greatest school of greatness? Go.

[Lewis Howes]

I've had a guest on, I think over 10 times actually, who is a coach that has come on and coached a bunch of times. But as an individual kind of guest like this, I think three might be the max. I'm trying to think I've moved in the second. I think maybe three times, maybe maybe four is kind of like only a few people. All right, you know, so that's, that's good to find error. It's good to be back. We're making it happen. You have been diving in. You've had a lot of experience in a lot of different topics over 15 years since you've been creating content. But for the last few years, you really dove into creating more psychologically, like deeper psychological videos on your YouTube, which I think are really fascinating around human behavior and kind of these psychological skills that we can overcome or we can master to help us create deeper relationships, to help us create healthier lives, more inner peace, and more abundance. So I wanted to ask you about in the content you've been Making the research you've been doing because you're really great at researching and getting the best information. What are a few of the psychological skills that humans should master if they want more peace and abundance in their life?

[Mark Manson]

I'd say the first one, first and foremost is self awareness. Ultimately, if you're not aware of a problem in your life or a tendency in your life, you can't do anything about it. Right. And self awareness is, it's, it's. People talk about it all the time. It's a very tricky thing. It's very slippery thing. Sometimes the more you try to grasp it, the more it slips out of your grasp. Because we're very good at tricking and deluding ourselves. You know, it's, everybody kind of thinks like, well, I know what's going on in my life. Like I, I know why I did that, I know why I'm thinking this way. And it's actually the process of developing self awareness is, in some ways it should be an uncomfortable process. It should involve questioning your own assumptions, questioning your motivations. Like, well, if you say you just had an argument with your partner, obviously you think you're right, obviously you think you know what you're doing. But being able to step back and say, but what if I don't? What if, what if I'm actually wrong? What if they're actually right? What would that mean? What would that suggest about me? What would that suggest about my view of the world and actually being able to sit with that for a certain amount of time? Like that is a skill. That is something that you practice and develop over a long period of time. And like most skills, it's when you're bad at it, it's not fun.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

So most people avoid it.

[Lewis Howes]

For probably every relationship I was in until this one, I used to think I was right in a lot of things and maybe I was in some of it, but I'm sure that I wasn't a lot of the time. Where in your relationship have you had to question your own assumptions of being right about something? Where you had to say, I needed to have my own medicine and step into self awareness and realize, oh, maybe actually she's right.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Where, where's that been in your relationship that you've seen?

[Mark Manson]

Well, the biggest thing, the first thing that comes to mind for me, the biggest thing for me is I historically was very avoidant in my relationships. Like I was the, the guy who would find exit plans to every, every intimate relationship uncomfortable. Exactly. Well, every time things got too intimate, I would Kind of freak out and like find an excuse to, to slip out or sabotage things. And when I was younger, I basically torpedoed a bunch of good relationships for no good reason really. And at the time when I was doing it, I thought, you know, like everybody, I thought I was justified and rational and being reasonable and everything. But as the years went on, I realized when I looked back, I was like, it's like, yeah, that was kind of, that was kind of selfish. That was, you know, that was a little bit unjustified, that was a little bit irrational. I was definitely being triggered. You know, some baggage was being triggered. And so when I met my wife, I kind of went into it with more self awareness around this. I was like, okay, clearly I'm an avoidant attachment type. I clearly get triggered around intimacy and have irrational reactions and want to escape and want to run away. And I made a deal with myself. As I said, look, you can always break up with her. That's always on the table. You're never trapped. But you're only allowed to break up with her for a good reason. It can never be over something stupid. It can never be over. Like a dumb fight you started over who loaded the dishwasher wrong. It's always gotta be a real reason, like a values difference or a communication problem or a breach of trust or something. It can never be over, over something really dumb because that's what I had done consistently throughout my relationship.

[Lewis Howes]

Or just because you're afraid or something.

[Mark Manson]

Totally, totally. Which I think people don't realize. Like, I mean, avoidance in particular. It's when you. It's a very irrational reaction. And it happens when you're not aware of it. It happens unconsciously. It's almost like a knee jerk type thing. You get too close to somebody, it gets a little bit too intimate, you feel vulnerable, that freaks you out. And so your mind starts tricking you and it starts convincing you things that aren't true, right? It's like, oh, she's probably lying to you. Or you know, oh, she never actually liked you that much. She's just doing this because she wants something from you. It starts feeding all these stories and narratives in your brain that are completely made up and they're completely based in your trauma response. But if you're not aware of that pattern within yourself, you just, you assume it's true and you assume it's right. And then you start a dumb fight over something completely inconsequential and, and you ruin a good relationship, right?

[Lewis Howes]

And so you've been married how long now 10 plus years.

[Unknown Guest]

Eight years.

[Lewis Howes]

Eight years, yeah. What are the psychological skills or emotional skills that you have now learned or improved upon eight years later that you didn't have at the beginning of the marriage that has helped you become closer, that has helped you feel more harmonious in the marriage, giving you more freedom, whatever it might be, within the marriage.

[Mark Manson]

It's a really good question. I think one of the biggest things is simply. I don't know if the right word is acceptance or non judgment, but it's. I guess the best way I'd describe it is not feeling compelled to change the other person. Gosh, that's so like.

[Lewis Howes]

Did you try to change her early on?

[Mark Manson]

A little bit. A little bit, yeah, for sure. And she probably tried to change me a little bit. Really? I just feel like when I look at the trends at this point, my wife and I, we've been together, it'll be 13 years next month that we've been together. And when I look at the different kind of trajectories in the relationship over that time, definitely one of the biggest ones is it feels like every year that goes by, the more we just kind of live and let live, like we just. You love who's in front of you. You don't love who they might be, who they could be, who you wish they could be. You love who's in front of you.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

And that's, that's ultimately, that's the choice you have to make.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

And if you choose not to, if you choose to love some imagined version of your partner, some potential version of your partner, I just think you're setting yourself up for a lot of pain.

[Lewis Howes]

And if someone doesn't learn the skill of self awareness, what is available on the other side, if they don't learn.

[Mark Manson]

That skill, you basically become a slave to your unconscious.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

You've got all these patterns, Harville Hendricks calls them love maps. But you have all these patterns that were imprinted on you as a child. And if you're like most people, like everybody, your parents weren't perfect. So your parents had baggage and issues and they kind of imprinted some of that baggage and issues on you. And so if you never develop any awareness around yourself, you're essentially a slave to that baggage. Like, you're always just going to assume that any impulse or emotion that arises is true without questioning it, without wondering if you're being irrational or not. Maybe you're being unfair, maybe you're being selfish. You know, these are all human things, we all do them.

[Lewis Howes]

And yeah, if someone feels like, but I know I might and they're wrong and I know this is correct and this is not true in whatever dynamic, relationship dynamic, what is something that someone could ask themselves or some steps they could take to say, am I truly being self aware or am I just being a jerk?

[Mark Manson]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

What are those skills or steps to creating self awareness?

[Mark Manson]

So I think there are some thought exercises you could go through. And you could do this in a journal, you could do this with a therapist, you could do it with a friend. I think the first one is imagine. Take your relationship situation and imagine it's two other people and switch around who the people are, switch around the gender, switch around the age, the you know who the people are and see if the dynamics, see if it still feels true to you. Ask yourself, if my best friend was in this, if my best friend's partner was doing the thing to them that I'm doing to my partner, how would I feel about it? And I think that that can be very illuminating.

[Lewis Howes]

That's interesting. So kind of remove yourself from the scenario and look at it from a different perspective, an unbiased perspective, I guess, of like you being in the situation.

[Mark Manson]

Totally.

[Lewis Howes]

That's interesting. Okay, so that's one thing to creating self awareness. Is there another?

[Mark Manson]

Ask people close to you.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

And it. So this is feedback. Feedback. And this is the tricky thing is that a lot of people don't have people around themselves that will give them honest feedback.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Mark Manson]

So it's.

[Lewis Howes]

And if you're in the wrong relationship, intimately, your partner might be saying you're bad at this and bad at this, they may be not giving you the best feedback too, depending if that they don't have your best interest in mind.

[Mark Manson]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

They have their interest in mind and not yours.

[Mark Manson]

Well, and that, that just made me think of a good point too, is that generally people who are in bad relationships, bad romantic relationships, bad. Probably also have bad relationships with friends, with family. Like they're just bad at relationships in general. Right. So finding somebody who is capable of giving you honest, critical feedback saying like, hey man, I think you're in the wrong on this one. Like, I think, I think she's got a point. You know, you want to find somebody in your life who is capable of saying that to you and then ask them for their honest opinion. And you know, it's like a doctor. Right. Like you want to get multiple. If it's a serious issue, you want to go get multiple opinions.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes. And you know what's interesting about feedback is I felt like as an athlete growing up, I was really good at receiving coaching and feedback when it was around sports.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And then in my 20s, I, I and I got into the real world. I didn't like feedback. Like in my business and intimate relationships and like friends. I didn't like it because I felt like it was critical of me as a person rather than me as a skill set in a sport.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I, I didn't take things personally when a coach was like, you dropped the ball, here's what you need to do. I was like, okay, tell me more. How do I get better at this skill? But when I would get feedback in my 20s from whatever girlfriends or friends or whatever business people, it was like I took it so personally. It was like, I'm bad and wrong because I'm getting feedback and I didn't know how to deal. I would like push people away. I was like, defend myself every time I got feedback. And I realized that really hurt me from personally growing and developing skills. And it wasn't until I was about 30 where I went to a workshop where it was like a whole day was around people giving you feedback in the workshop. Like literally they would circle around you and they'd say, you show up to me as this, you show up to me as a jerk. You show up to me as entitled. You show up to me as whatever. And the whole thing was like receiving the feedback and say, give me more feedback. Give me more, give me more, tell me more. And everyone being like, this is after like days of people getting to experience you.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Even if you were like the best person there, what's the feedback you can give them and that. I don't know if it was like the healthiest thing, but it was definitely helpful for me because I was so against getting feedback about me. And it was the greatest gift that I got in my early 30s because I think I just would have been, you know, right and wrong, good and bad, and just unable to receive feedback at any moment. I'd have been judgmental.

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[Mark Manson]

Thanks. It's scary, man. Feedback is scary.

[Lewis Howes]

Very hard.

[Mark Manson]

Right? Like it's. You feel it's hard not to take it personally. It's hard to. And I think it's because sometimes people. There are people in the world who their feedback is critical and judgmental. Right. It's like they're not trying to help you, they're trying to cut you down, hurt you.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. And it's. So finding people who can give you free feedback, but they're giving it for your own benefit is really good. You also bring up something that's super interesting about all of this, which is these emotional skills. They're Very domain specific. Like, I, I meet people all the time who are emotional geniuses in their professional work life. And then they go home and in front of their kids, they just melt down and, like, can't handle anything. Right. And then there are other people who are the complete opposite. Like, they're just amazing family members and friends. And then they go to work and they just get walked over by everybody.

[Lewis Howes]

Isn't that interesting?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Or at work they're like the boss. But then they come home and they're like a baby. Yeah. Whatever it is, it's like, totally. But in my, in my sports experience, I was like, give me the best coach who can give me feedback. All day long I was like, tell me what to do. How can I get better? How can I improve? But in my personal life, I took it as criticism. I took it as I'm not good enough as a person.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I took it as an offense. And I know now it's because I was very wounded and I was very insecure and I was afraid of, like, people not thinking I was good enough or something like that.

[Mark Manson]

Sure.

[Lewis Howes]

But it's interesting that I was able to do it in one domain, but in the other, it was like the hardest thing to overcome, getting feedback.

[Mark Manson]

It sounds like you had a. I mean, obviously you were an athlete. Like, you had a lot of confidence in the sports domain. Right. So it's like, even if a coach. I imagine there were plenty of coaches that chewed you out.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, yeah.

[Mark Manson]

And told you you screwed up, you know, and it's like, but, but you knew. You're like, I'm, I'm good at this.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Mark Manson]

Like, I'm, I'm a good athlete, you know, and I'm going to get better. Whereas if you've never, if you've never had that evidence accumulate in your personal life that you're a good person, that people love you, that people want to be friends with you, then. Yeah, that feedback is scary.

[Lewis Howes]

And I think growing up, I didn't really have any friends, and I felt like, I didn't feel like I had anyone who had my best interest.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Besides, like, you know, parents or siblings or whatever. But I was the youngest and they were always kind of off with their friends, so I always felt like I'm left behind. At least that was the story I told myself. Whether it was actually true is what I felt. My interpretation.

[Mark Manson]

It's funny, I, I, early in my career, so I struggled a lot with social anxiety when I was younger. And it's funny because for the People who've read my writing for a long time, like, it's pretty incendiary, a little controversial, you know, like, it definitely pokes at people's buttons to get a pretty angry response sometimes. And early in my career, I kind of relished that. That's kind of how I made a name for myself, is I would. I would like, I would poke people's buttons and kill sacred cows and say controversial things and try to get a lot of attention that way. And it's funny because I've talked to. I've spoken to so many writers and aspiring writers who are terrified of publishing something and making people upset, and it never bothered me. I would.

[Lewis Howes]

Why didn't they bother you?

[Mark Manson]

I don't know. I was just like, I'm right, whatever.

[Lewis Howes]

And if you do that in, like, social settings or only, like, written.

[Mark Manson]

So this is the whole point is, like, I would write an article that I knew very well. I'm like, this is going to piss off thousands of people. I'm going to get. I'm going to wake up tomorrow, I'm going to have 200 angry emails in my inbox. But it's fine because I think it's worth writing it. And I would do it. And then I would go to a party that night and I'd be nervous to talk to the girl next to me because I'm like, well, what if she doesn't like me?

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

What is that about? You know, what do you think that was in about you, where you had the confidence or the courage to do something, I guess, online, but in person you struggled or you think that I.

[Mark Manson]

The only thing I can come back to is it is. It's like that evidence thing, right? Like, I. In my writing, I'm very aware that my writing is a better portrayal of me and my ideas than, I guess my physical form is interesting because you.

[Lewis Howes]

Could also package your thoughts and make something compelling and you'd get results that way. So you knew what to do there.

[Mark Manson]

I think I'm just better in writing than in person. But also, it's like I had accumulated a lot of evidence over many, many years that when I really put thought into something, whether it's blogging or posting on forums or posting on social media, when I put a lot of thought into something, it really lands for a lot of people. And I'm really good at this. Whereas in my personal life, wow. You know, like you, I. I grew up, you know, didn't have a ton of friends, got rejected by all the girls in high School was, you know, kind of bullied a little bit, you know, so it was. There was still that scar tissue there. Yes, that was.

[Unknown Guest]

Wow.

[Mark Manson]

It was hard to work through.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

That interesting.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But I think. I think this is interesting because I don't think most people talk about feedback and receiving feedback. I think it's really valuable to get it as consistent as you can. And also, I look at a lot of my comments on, whatever, YouTube or social media, not in a sense of, like, I'm worried what people are saying, but more as feedback.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Because if there is one person or two people saying, I didn't like how you did this, like, okay, is this true for me? And is there a place I can improve, or is it just something they didn't enjoy?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Whereas if I see a bunch of common themes around people saying, hey, you're interrupting too much or you're doing this too much or whatever, then I'm like, okay, here's a theme of different perspectives. Giving me feedback.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Don't take it personally. But see, how can I improve this if I want to?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

If I don't care or, you know, about what they think, then I'll do whatever I want. But if I'm trying to get better, if I'm trying to serve better, if I'm trying to be a better interviewer, things like that, then let me take the feedback without taking it personally and try to notice next time. And that's been helpful.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. So that's another skill. Right. It's like knowing when to take feedback and when to ignore it. Because sometimes people don't get what you're about. Sometimes people don't understand what you're doing. Sometimes people project what they would do and try to get you to do what they would do. Right. So it's. There's a certain amount of wisdom and consideration that I think is required to notice those moments of, like, okay, I know this person has my best interests at heart, but they also don't really get what I'm trying to do. They're doing what they would try to do. They're telling me to do what they would try to do. So it's tricky. I have this. I had an Instagram post that went viral. It said. It said, if you wouldn't ask them for advice, then why do you care about their criticism?

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

And that's good. I think what people. The mistake that a lot of people make is that they. They don't think about where the feedback or the advice is coming from.

[Lewis Howes]

So true.

[Mark Manson]

You know, so they're like, oh, this person doesn't like what I'm doing. They say I should be doing this better. And it's like, well, yeah, but do you respect where this person's coming from? Like, because it's not. You don't have to. Right.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Just because someone said they don't like something you're doing doesn't mean they're the best opinion to listen to.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

For your advice. That's interesting. I like that a lot. It's kind of like, you know, when you get a negative review. As an author, I don't know if you feel this way, but whenever I see like a negative review, I'm like, this person is not a writer who's leaving a nasty review on Amazon. Because I don't know if I've ever left a bad review since writing a book for anyone else.

[Mark Manson]

Totally.

[Lewis Howes]

Because, you know, the pain, the time, the energy and just putting a book out.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Even if it's bad.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

You know, I could give some, like, feedback, but not like one star. I hated it, you know?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

No one writing books are leaving negative reviews for anyone else writing books. Yeah, they don't.

[Mark Manson]

You know what's funny? This is actually. I'm glad you brought this up because the two most prominent negative reviews I've ever gotten, I actually feel kind of good about.

[Lewis Howes]

Are they from writers?

[Mark Manson]

No.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay.

[Mark Manson]

So the first one is, I think if you go to the Amazon page of subtle art and not give you a fuck, the top negative review, I think it describes me as the guy in the bar who thinks he's smarter than he is and who's like lecturing you and thinks he's smarter than he is. And I was like, yeah, that is kind of my vibe. Like, I kind of am that guy. Like, I've been to a lot of bars and I've been. I've been that guy quite a bit. And then the other one was my second book when it came out, the. The London Sunday, the Sunday Times in London, it was like an 80 year old guy reviewed it, which I don't know why they asked him to do it. He said, he said Manson is like. He said the problem with Manson is that he's like the local drunk who spent too much time in the philosophy section.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, my gosh, that's so funny, dude.

[Mark Manson]

And I was like, yeah, he gets it.

[Lewis Howes]

It's the same. It reminds me. It reminds me of goodwill hunting. You know the scene in the bar where there's a guy who's like philosophizing and then whatever, anyways.

[Mark Manson]

But I mean. Well, my point there is that they're criticizing me for the thing that I, I think other people love me for.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Mark Manson]

Which is like, which is like I'm like a friend in the bar who's giving you advice. Right. Like that. That's totally why my fans like me. And so when I see that criticism, like, I like this, I'm like, I'm on the right track. I'm not right for you. But thank you for pointing that out because it means I'm on the right track.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, that's cool.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Well, now here's an interesting question for you. What is the feedback? If you were a coach and you could get out of yourself and see who you are and everything you've been about in the last. I don't know, how old are you? 40.

[Mark Manson]

40.

[Lewis Howes]

40. If you could see everything you've created, but you're not you. But you could see it and, you know, all of your dreams over the next three, five, ten years and where you want to go in your health and your relationships or your spiritual journey or financial opportunities, what feedback would you give yourself?

[Mark Manson]

This is a tough question, man.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm thinking about your mom.

[Mark Manson]

Oh, why? Why?

[Lewis Howes]

Because you told me the last time you came on your mom really enjoyed the questions.

[Mark Manson]

Oh, God. Yeah. Okay.

[Lewis Howes]

You said your mom watched, she really likes the questions and she really liked the responses that you had because she hadn't heard you say these things.

[Mark Manson]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I'm curious, so if you could coach yourself, what feedback would you give yourself?

[Mark Manson]

I. So the area of my life that I think I'm not killing it right now, and this is, honestly, this is, this has been a struggle for a long time. It is reaching out to people, staying connected to people. It's kind of social life. It's like non romantic relationships. Right. It's reaching out to friends, checking in with people, following up with people, being like, you know, hey, sorry we missed each other last weekend, we should hang out next weekend. Like, I'm really bad about that. I'm very passive and reactive and it's a bad habit that I've fallen into throughout my life. And it's funny because at the beginning of this year, my wife and I, we set intentions for the year and one of my intentions was to be better about this. I think I got a little bit better, but I'm like, still bad at it.

[Lewis Howes]

You've done, I've noticed it in the last couple years. You know, we're not best friends hanging out at the time. But you've reached out a couple times. Yes. Whereas before you never did.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

You know, I was like. So I was like, huh, What's. Is he changing something about himself? I'm kind of noticed it.

[Mark Manson]

I'm trying, man.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm not expecting a text from you every month or something, but the fact that you're just like, hey, just checking in, let's go for a hike sometime or whatever once in a while, I'm like, it's. It's noticeable because you never did it before.

[Unknown Guest]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

And so I'm seeing that you're taking those actions and I'm sure you're doing with others, too.

[Mark Manson]

I'm terrible at it. And it's. It's something that I've had to be very conscious about. And it's like, it's silly because it's the superficial stuff. Like. Like when I'm in person and you can attest to this, like when we're in front of each other.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

It's great. Like, I can talk all day, we can hang out, like everything's good. But it's for some reason, like that, that connection, that texting, the calling, the responding the emails, like the scheduling stuff. Like, I'm always really bad about that. And it seems silly because it's the superficial side of it, but. I don't know, part of it is just being busy, quote unquote. Like, we all are. But part of it, too. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't a little bit of residue from that social anxiety I was talking about. You know, if like. Of like weekends coming up, I should. I want to do something with somebody, but I don't know who, and I.

[Lewis Howes]

Don'T know if they're busy. What if they reject me?

[Mark Manson]

I don't know like, what to invite them to. Like, what if it's something lame? You know, what if they don't want to come? You know, so it's.

[Lewis Howes]

They can say no.

[Mark Manson]

There's probably. There's probably like some really subtle, interesting residual stuff like that down there. Or maybe I just never developed the skill.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a skill. Yeah, I think it's a skill because that's something. It's interesting. I almost have the opposite feedback for myself, which in the last. And maybe we talked about this last time we hung out, but I was connected with everyone too frequently. I had built my kind of business in building relationships.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I felt like I was spreading myself too thin.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I felt the opposite of, like, I'm just pouring in everyone else. And I don't feel like people are as invested in me.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I was starting to feel like resentful or frustrated or just like I've been drained, you know? Yeah. So it's like, let me reclaim my energy. And I had to, in the last year and a half, say no to people. Create boundaries with people. Like, it was more the fear of hurting their feelings if I need to create a boundary or just say no to them.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

They wanted to spend time together. They wanted something. They wanted to come on the show, whatever it is. And I just had to say no. I can't do this.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And be okay with disappointing them, letting them down, thinking they're judging me, which was my greatest, like, challenge.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

That's another skill.

[Lewis Howes]

That is a skill. I didn't have that skill. You probably had that skill.

[Mark Manson]

I've, I've got, I have no problem saying no.

[Lewis Howes]

You're like, screw you, I don't care. And that was a skill that I've had. I'm, I'm like still learning. I haven't mastered it. It's still like it's a muscle I'm building where I'm just like, okay. I have to learn how to be okay with not upsetting.

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[Lewis Howes]

And I feel great.

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[Mark Manson]

Do you feel like an internal resistance when it, when that situation comes up.

[Lewis Howes]

Or more for like, you know, I need to take a deep breath or what if they react? Or that's how it was. I'm a lot better now. I feel like I've done it a ton this year.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

I've like immersed myself in like boundaries and nos everywhere in my life. Friends, family, like not a negative way, but just right. You show up for me.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And not in an aggressive way, like, screw you, but just like doing the action of.

[Unknown Sponsor]

No.

[Lewis Howes]

Or setting a boundary.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Removing myself from certain, you know, text groups or things like this that are just, I feel out of alignment with certain things. I need to say no. So you say no.

[Mark Manson]

So a lot of people struggle with this.

[Lewis Howes]

Gosh. Well, people, please.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. So what is, what is like the first step, would you say?

[Lewis Howes]

I think the first step is what you said, which is self awareness.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

For me, because I was feeling it for years, but I was afraid of upsetting people.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Afraid of hurting the relationships.

[Unknown Sponsor]

And.

[Lewis Howes]

And then I would resent the relationship when they would reach out and ask for something from me, but they wouldn't just check in on me.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I'd be like. And I would do it anyways. And then I resent myself for doing something for someone else when I was frustrated that didn't just say, hey, what's going on? How are you doing? Or just texting, like, hey, hope you're doing well.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But it was only when they reach out, when they wanted something and I would reach out, just be like, hey, I saw you doing something cool. Congratulations. And not, you know.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

So that would bug me because I, maybe I would just assume everyone does what I do, which is like thinking of them.

[Mark Manson]

We all do.

[Lewis Howes]

Wishing the best of them, like, yeah. Checking in when they do something cool online. And my hey, congrats. What can I help with?

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, anyways, that's another. That's actually a great self awareness point. Is that we all default to assuming that people do what we do or think the way that we think. Right. That, that it's. And it's. It's crazy because people are completely different. And it's interesting too because the say no thing. It's funny because I probably have a very similar reaction that you have hearing my problems because when I'm hearing you talk, I'm like, it's so easy. Yeah. I'm like, well. I'm like, well, yeah, you just say no to everybody and then the people who are really your friends will stick around. And I'm like. And I'm like, it's solved.

[Lewis Howes]

Right?

[Mark Manson]

Problem solved. But it's. You probably hear my problem. You're like, yeah, just text everybody. And like people want to see you. Will text back. And I'm like, so interesting. But it's so hard.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. We have like the opposite wound or something. I don't know. It's. That's so interesting. Yeah. Because with our powers combined, I know.

[Mark Manson]

We would be the perfect for help.

[Lewis Howes]

That's so interesting. Well, I think a lot of people struggle with these social skills and I think it is either emotional or psychological wounds that or just a lack of self awareness on how to develop this skill. And that's why I think this is what sets people free. Like, I have so much more peace. In the last year and a half now, the first six months of this, I didn't feel peace. I felt like, ah, this is hard. But now on the other side of developing this skill, you know, let's say the I'm level 3 or 4 out of 10 maybe of this skill. Like, I feel so much more peace and freedom being able to create a boundary, say no or just not go to someone's party or event and be okay with them being upset with me.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Did you have any fallout? Did you have any like people?

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Yes. I had to say no to people and I had to. Literally there's a few people that I had to create a boundary with over text. Then I'd been on a phone call and just being like, here's why you're not a good friend.

[Unknown Guest]

Wow.

[Lewis Howes]

And that was like trembling inside.

[Mark Manson]

Holy.

[Lewis Howes]

It was like I had to have the ultimate courage to be like, you haven't been a good friend.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

This is why this doesn't feel good to me. I don't appreciate the way you're treating me. Like. And that was the hardest thing.

[Unknown Guest]

Wow.

[Lewis Howes]

Because I didn't want to upset anyone ever.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I did that over and over again.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

In the last year and a half.

[Mark Manson]

But then you get to the other.

[Lewis Howes]

Side and I just feel like, peace, freedom. And I've also realized, like, the skill of not needing lots of friends.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Like, you know all this. You're like, yeah, I have, like, what are four friends? And I don't need everyone to like me.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm always trying to get people to hate me, you know, whatever. It's like, that's how you built your business. Right.

[Mark Manson]

It's like pissing off 90% of people and being friends with the other.

[Lewis Howes]

It's funny because you said you grew up kind of feeling bullied and not having a lot of friends. I felt the same way. And I went into, well, let me be friends with everyone.

[Mark Manson]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

Let me try to get that approval in my 20s.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And have everyone like me and be the nice guy and over deliver and value so that people see my worth.

[Mark Manson]

Well, this is the weird thing about childhood wounds. Right. Because there's. There's kind of. You can go one of two directions. You can either try to compensate for it for the rest of your life, or you can just own it and live in it for the rest of your life. Identify with it. And I actually think I tend to be. I've mellowed quite a bit as I've gotten older. But, like, I tend to be unnecessarily contrarian with people.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Mark Manson]

Like, my first. My first instinct, like, anytime if I'm with a group of people and everybody agrees on something.

[Lewis Howes]

No.

[Mark Manson]

My first instinct is like, they're all wrong.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, my God.

[Mark Manson]

And let me figure out how they're wrong.

[Lewis Howes]

We find the angle where they're missing something.

[Mark Manson]

Exactly. But it's funny because it's. It's been my superpower. Right. Like, it's. It is that skill and that willingness has resulted in a lot of my personal success.

[Lewis Howes]

But that's interesting.

[Mark Manson]

There's been a lot of social situations, relationships, family situations, where people are like, mark, stop being an asshole, dude.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

You know, like, back off, relax.

[Lewis Howes]

That's interesting.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

No, I've noticed, though, the more boundaries I've created, the more I've developed the skill of boundaries. Or just saying no and being okay with if there's a consequence. And usually there's not a consequence of saying no, it's just My interpretation of like, oh, am I going to upset them?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

By doing this, I've gotten to the place where you are, which is, okay, you have a handful of key friends, and then the rest of time I'm with. With my fiance and I'm happy. I don't need people to like me.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

I don't need all these friends to be happy. You know, if I have more friends at A Season of Life, cool. If it's less or whatever, it's like, I'm okay.

[Mark Manson]

Do you think the quantity of social relationships was compensating for the lack of depth? Maybe I was.

[Lewis Howes]

I was also always trying to go deep with people though too. I always wanted to go intimate and deep right away. Which people are always like, oh, you're going to. You're asking these deep questions. We just met each other. Right. That's kind of what I do on the show. It's like, what's your darkest secret? You know, it's like, yeah. And. But I just think I. I just care deeply about humans also. So there's like a desire to care about humanity and help everyone. But also maybe there was a wound of like, no one liked me as a kid, so. Sure. So it was kind of a combination of both.

[Mark Manson]

Maybe I used to do that as well. And I've actually, I've noticed that that is. It's a mistake that I've noticed a lot of young people make or younger people make. And I think it's very well intentioned. It's like, because I hate small talk. I've hated small talk my entire life. And so when I was younger, I kind of had this naive view of like, I should never have to do small talk. I should just go deep with everybody I meet from day one. First step, you know, what's your life's biggest dream? If you only had a year to live, what would you do with it? You know, like all these questions that I used to ask in my 20s, and I think as I've gotten older, I've appreciated that depth. Like, you can't force depth and intimacy.

[Lewis Howes]

Like invulnerability right away.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, absolutely. You can't force it. And then also a huge component of intimacy is simply time. Right. It's like, it's simply spending time together. You actually, in many cases, you can develop more trust and comfort and intimacy hanging out with a friend, watching football games every week for a few years than you can like, having these super deep, profound conversations and like, trying to force in like, all these personal topics. Some of it Is just being present with someone.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes. I'm the opposite of you. Whereas you're like, how can I push everyone's buttons and almost push everyone away but build this massive audience? Because I'm bringing in people who believe in the same type of thought.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Where I built my. And you kind of built your business that way. Your blog and your books that way. I built my business through relationships. Relationships.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

I started doing hosting networking events in 2008, 9, 10, and I was like, oh, I'm building an audience and making money through relationships.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Networking, creating experiences, creating groups. Like, that was kind of how I built it. So I felt like I had to keep doing that.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I think I could only do that so much.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Of personal time invested in all these different people. It just became too much.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah. And I think there's probably like a prioritization. I don't want to call it a ranking or like a tier system, but, you know, it's there. There probably needs to be clarity in your own life of like, okay, friend circles.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

Like, this is my friend circle. These are people I really care about. And then these are like acquaintances, people I like. But like, you know, I see them for work related stuff or I talk to them for work related stuff. But like, we're not, we're not besties.

[Lewis Howes]

And then there's like colleagues and then there's like, okay, people you just do partnerships with or something.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, totally, totally.

[Lewis Howes]

Not everyone needs to be your friend.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But I used to want to make everyone my friend. You know what I mean? I don't know. But I, I did understand not everyone needs to be your friend. Yeah, yeah. You can be friendly with everyone.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

But there's a difference. I mean, it's. It's almost. You actually don't want everybody to be your friend because then you don't really stand for anything. Right.

[Lewis Howes]

That's interesting.

[Mark Manson]

Like, you, you. Gosh, it's unrealistic to expect that you're gonna connect or see eye to eye with every single person that you ever meet. You actually, the fact that you don't connect or meet. See eye to eye with some people you meet is significant because it means that you have some degree of identity and uniqueness and values and prioritizations that differ from others. And like, that's fine. That's totally fine.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, that's cool. Okay, so we got self awareness. We got feedback. What would be another skill that you think from all the research you've been doing lately that if people can learn to develop or master this psychological or emotional skill, it would improve the quality of their life.

[Mark Manson]

Feedback, I'd say communication. Communicating effectively with people. I think.

[Lewis Howes]

What'S the key to having powerful communication?

[Mark Manson]

I think the most important thing in communicating within relationships is distinguishing between. And this ties into the feedback thing and the criticism and the judgment and everything is like distinguishing your comments about a person's thoughts or actions versus the person themselves. I think many people's. It's instinctual for us. Like, let's say you say something that I completely disagree with. Right. It is a human instinct for me to be like, louis, you're wrong. You're an idiot. You're all this and that. And we have to teach ourselves to separate the idea from the person. Right.

[Lewis Howes]

The behavior that you're.

[Mark Manson]

Or the behavior from the person. And instead say, hey, Louis, I don't. Like. I disagree with that idea, and I don't really like it. And this is why. And maintaining respect for the person while disagreeing about the idea.

[Lewis Howes]

So when someone has, like, a belief or a statement, instead of saying, you're a horrible person for thinking that.

[Mark Manson]

Yes, exactly.

[Lewis Howes]

Don't say, like, how. How despicable are you for having this opinion?

[Mark Manson]

Exactly.

[Lewis Howes]

Instead, say something like, that opinion doesn't resonate with me.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Or why do you think that? I disagree, but why do you think that?

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

Like, lead into it with curiosity. And it's an understanding that it's okay to disagree about things, even, like, relatively important or even ethical things, without necessarily hating or disrespecting the person. And I think this is particularly important in romantic relationships. Right. Like, my wife and I, we have extremely different standards when it comes to cleanliness.

[Lewis Howes]

Are you the clean one or is she the clean one?

[Mark Manson]

Oh, she is definitely the clean one one.

[Lewis Howes]

And it probably drives her nuts, you know, to live. It's up to some standard, Right?

[Mark Manson]

Absolutely right. And it's, you know, and then she's Brazilian. And so we have different standards when it comes to punctuality.

[Lewis Howes]

And. And three hours late.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, exactly. It's like she starts getting ready when it's time to be there. And. And it's. It's funny because a lot of us, we. We tie up things like cleanliness, organization, punctuality. Like a lot of. A lot of us, we often attach these things to moral judgments. Like, we. It is very natural and normal to assume if somebody's 45 minutes late, like, if I showed up 45 minutes late for this podcast, it's a total natural reaction. Be like, wow, Mark's kind of an, that's really disrespectful. Like, I don't like him. Right, right. Or if, you know, somebody just like leaves all their dirty dishes out everywhere, it's like, wow, what a mess of a person. Like, what kind of person does this? You know? And it. We jump immediately to judgment of the character of the person without understanding that you can have different viewpoints, prioritizations, or, or just perceptions of what is clean, what's not clean, what is on time, what's not on time. And again, it's love the sinner, hate the sin. You know, separate the action from the person and try to refrain as much as possible, not letting the distaste of the behavior zip into your respect and your trust and your judgment.

[Lewis Howes]

Have you ever done any therapy for yourself?

[Unknown Guest]

Oh yeah.

[Mark Manson]

Oh yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Really? What's the, what's the biggest lesson you've learned from therapy?

[Mark Manson]

You know, it was funny. So I did, I did therapy for most of my 20s and it was really funny. I went in. So earlier I was talking about how I blew up a bunch of relationships for no good reason. And it was as soon as I had awareness around that, like I think it was after the third or fourth relationship that I ruined, I started. I'm like, huh, I think I'm the problem. And as soon as I realized that I, I signed up for therapy. Wow. And I was probably 23 or that's like young.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, like therapy wasn't cool 17 years ago.

[Mark Manson]

No, no, no.

[Lewis Howes]

For men.

[Mark Manson]

Especially for men.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, that's, that's a very self aware thing of you at 23 to sign up for therapy.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, yeah, I was really, I was really into meditation at the time. So I was doing a lot of meditation retreats and I was really in the Buddhism and stuff. And, and so I think therapy was just kind of seemed like a natural extension of that. But it.

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[Mark Manson]

Remember I went to therapy and I intentionally chose a male therapist and because I want to talk about girls, right? Like, that was in my head. That was my issue. It's like, oh, all these girls, they're crazy. You know, I can't keep a girlfriend around. You know, there's all this drama going on. And I remember I sat down with, with him and we started talking and I was like, I have all these girl problems. I really want to, like, sort through them with somebody. And we spent the next two months talking about my parents. Like, we never, like, the girlfriends never even came up. It was just all childhood parents the entire time. And there was just so much stuff back there, like down there, like stuff I never thought about. There were so many times where like, I would describe something to him and he would just look at at me and he'd be like, yeah, that sounds like trauma, you know, And I'm like, really? And he's like, yeah, that's not normal, you know, and it like, I had no idea. No idea. Because we all grow up assuming that our childhood is normal. We Assume that it's everybody's childhood, that everybody's family operates the way our family operated. Everybody's mother is the way our mother was. Right. Like, we never consider that, that it could be different or that the way we grew up was unusual in some way. And so coming back to the self awareness piece, like, that's incredibly powerful when you realize, like, hey, the water I've been swimming in since I was a child is not normal water. Like, this is, this is rocky waters. Yeah, this is all splashing around and messed up. Like I'm not seeing clearly. So that was very, very powerful for me. And the second thing I remember, this was before I started my career or anything. I remember kind of once I got towards the end of the therapy and he and I started talking about ending it, he actually told me, he was like, you know, you'd be pretty good at this. I was like, really? He's like, yeah, if you're still thinking about careers, you should consider psychology. And I was like, I was like, yeah, we'll see.

[Lewis Howes]

Let's do it. Look at you now.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah, I know, right?

[Lewis Howes]

Speaking of psychology in the self help world, what is the advice in the self help world right now that you think people should ignore? Ignore, like what's out there in the world that you're seeing people speaking about or content, or people saying, ah, you should, you should do this, but you actually shouldn't do that.

[Mark Manson]

You know, it's not so much that something should be ignored, but I, I do think, think there are a number of things that, like, tend to get overrated or, or maybe overrated at the moment. Like, I think they, there's certain things that, that get a lot of traction on social media and so they, they just get spread everywhere. And then people start kind of exaggerating what they are. Like, I'll give you one example is narcissism.

[Lewis Howes]

I knew you were gonna say that. Yeah, I knew you were to say this because I just feel like I literally knew you say this, I was gonna say it, but for you, because I feel like that's all people talk about.

[Mark Manson]

It's everywhere. It's absolutely everywhere. I see it on a million accounts. I see, like whenever I post anything about it, it gets shared a million times. And, and I've been running into it, you know, in conversations with people and fans. Like, people start like, whoa, you know, I've had all these narcissists in my life and I had to cut them out. And I'm like, whoa, okay, hold on, timeout. And like, Narcissism is a thing. Obviously it's a very bad thing. It's a very difficult thing to deal with, but it's not necessarily around every corner. And the problem with narcissism is that you need to have extended exposure to a person to properly diagnose it. You can't just be with somebody for a month or a few months or have them do one thing mean to you, or be selfish in one way and be like, oh, well, they're a narcissist and I shouldn't have to ever deal with them. Them again. And I think it's. People are using it as an excuse to exit difficult situations and difficult relationships that in reality could probably be improved with a certain amount of patience and work. So I worry about that. I worry there's a lot of statistics around parents or kids cutting off their parents. And I think a lot of it is the narcissistic parents is kind of. Of becoming the just or toxic parents is the justification for it. And it literally makes me uncomfortable because you can have really terrible parents, but you can manage that relationship and manage your exposure to them in a way that you don't have to eliminate them from your life permanently.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, you can create a boundary.

[Mark Manson]

Exactly. And I feel like people are just using narcissism as an excuse to not do the hard work of boundaries. Boundaries.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, man, that's interesting. Okay, so that's something you feel like is getting either overblown up or overrated in terms of. Whereas that. Is there any other self help or personal development advice you're seeing in the. The world that you feel like? I don't know if that's actually the best approach. Maybe not a person who's saying something, but a concept. Yeah. Concept around.

[Mark Manson]

Well, I've got a whole rant about manifestation, which my audience loves.

[Lewis Howes]

Manifestation. I know they do. It's gotta trigger everyone.

[Mark Manson]

I know they do trigger. Warning, Mark's coming in on the manifestation.

[Lewis Howes]

Let's hear it.

[Mark Manson]

It's not that it's wrong. Like it is a thing. Right. It's just I don't like the explanation for it, which is, you know, it.

[Lewis Howes]

What's the explanation you hear that you don't like?

[Mark Manson]

The explanation I hear is very woo woo. And also there's a little bit. Speaking of narcissism, there's a little bit of kind of spiritual narcissism, narcissism in it of like, of like, oh, if you really wish for something and you really focus on it, the universe is going to conspire to give it to you because you know there's energy in the world and it's all going to like, cool. I'm like, come on, really? It's look as somebody. There are very well understood, well documented cognitive biases in psychology like that our, our minds are not 100% accurate. Like we perceive things inaccurately. One way to think about it is that there's a lot of information in the world and our minds are not fully capable of processing all the information at all given times. And so our mind uses shortcuts to narrow in and focus on what matters. Your mind can't process everything that it's perceiving, right. So your mind takes shortcuts. And one of those shortcuts is something known as confirmation bias. And confirmation bias is super simple, which is basically whatever you are thinking about, your perception will look for in your environment. Right.

[Lewis Howes]

So everybody's kind of like a placebo or.

[Mark Manson]

No, I mean everybody's experienced this many times. So for example, let's say you're thinking about buying a new car. You probably go years without paying much attention to what other cars are on the highway. But as soon as you think to yourself, I'm going to buy a new car, I think I'm going to switch models. Suddenly, every day you're driving to work and you notice every single car around you, you're like, huh, I wonder what that one is. I wonder if that's expensive. That one looks nice, maybe I'll get that. And like suddenly because you've prioritized cars in your mind, you start noticing them in your environment in a way that you never noticed before. And this has a very noticeable effect. So like if, if I tell you that the color orange is going to be very important in your life over the next week, you probably start seeing it everywhere. You probably see the color orange a million times a day. But you never care and you never think about it. But if I tell you that and you believe it, you'll start noticing orange in all these little things that you do all the time. So you can leverage cognitive bias in your favor, which is by focusing and thinking about your goals. Goals, Right. It's like if I want to achieve something really important, if I focus and think about that day after day after day, I will start noticing opportunities or things that could help me achieve that in my environment. Going about my day to day life now, those opportunities and things were always there. I just wasn't paying attention to them because I was thinking. I've been thinking about it regularly now. I notice that them. Right. So it's manifestation. There's nothing manifesting. It was already there. It was there the whole time. You just didn't prioritize it, so you never noticed. And so this is what I mean when it's like, it's not wrong, it's just described poorly. Right. And I'm like, and I'm a science nerd. So I'm like, well, why can't we just call it cognitive bias? Leveraging cognitive bias. Well, that's not very catchy and it doesn't sell a lot of things.

[Lewis Howes]

That's interesting. No, I like this approach though, because there are certain people that will just say, oh, if you just think about it, it comes to you or whatever. It'll just. The universe is conspiring in your favor. And you know, when you set an intention, it all floods your way, which, whether you believe that or not, what you said is actually what a lot of people talk about with manifestation, these things are already out there.

[Mark Manson]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

And when you put your intention on a goal, a vision, a dream, whatever you want to create, then you can go find that thing through daily actions.

[Unknown Guest]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

And the more clear your intention and the more active you're thinking about that thing and acting on it, the closer you're going to find it, the quicker you're going to find it.

[Mark Manson]

Absolutely.

[Lewis Howes]

You call that cognitive bias, not manifestation.

[Mark Manson]

You can call it whatever you want. It's just, it's the explanation that drives me crazy.

[Lewis Howes]

I hear you.

[Mark Manson]

You know, it's like, it's when I hear the, the flighty woo woo. Oh, the universe is. Your energy is aligned with this and that. I'm like, I'm.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Mark Manson]

I'm like, whatever, man. Yeah, it works. Okay, great.

[Lewis Howes]

You know, you call it confirmation bias.

[Mark Manson]

It's comfort. It is like in psychology, we've known it for 50 years. It's confirmation bias. It's a thing. You can totally leverage it in your favor.

[Lewis Howes]

I love it. But whatever it is you believe, if you're taking the actions around, whether you call it confirmation by it or anything.

[Mark Manson]

Else, it's the intention in the action.

[Lewis Howes]

That's it.

[Mark Manson]

That's it.

[Lewis Howes]

There you go. Okay, perfect.

[Mark Manson]

So we agree on that.

[Lewis Howes]

I agree on that. Yeah. So it's the way, the way people, certain people explain it when they don't add those things. That's what frustrates me.

[Mark Manson]

And the explanation does matter because bad explanations, people can start making poor assumptions based on bad explanations. So it's like if you, let's say you set an intention for a certain goal and it doesn't work out, it ends up being harder than you expected. Or maybe you achieve it and it doesn't make you happy. Well, now you've got this cosmological conundrum of like, well, maybe the universe doesn't want me to be happy. Well, no, no, it's just you thought you wanted a thing and you got it and now you actually realize it doesn't make you happy. Very human experience, completely normal. So it's, I get, I just have a natural allergy to like the cosmological woo woo explanations because I just, I think it can get people into trouble.

[Lewis Howes]

Sure, sure, it makes sense. What is the, you know, being 40 now, what is the skill you think you're going to need to learn to master for the next 40 years of your life?

[Unknown Guest]

Oh man.

[Lewis Howes]

Because you created so much, you've accomplished so much, you've got, you know, probably every type of goal you want to accomplish. You've done it a million times over with the amount of books you sold and all the things you've created and the lives you've impacted and being being married for eight plus years now and all these different things. But for the next 40, what's the skill you need to master to feel happy or abundant or joyful or, you.

[Mark Manson]

Know, I feel happy and abundant and joyful. I don't know, it's. I don't know, maybe you're in the same spot, but like it's actually I was talking to a friend about this just a couple days ago. How early in my career, you know, I was, I was messed up. I was still working through a lot of. Right. And so there was a certain like energy and fire to my work because it was also my therapy. Like, you know, it's like I like my relationships are falling apart and I've got all this self doubt and insecurity in these areas of my life and it just, it like fueled a very passionate output. And I really do feel like I've reached a point in my life where most areas of my life I'm pretty satisfied with. Like there, there's obviously always things I could do better and there are some areas that I think I could get better at. But ultimately, all in all I'm like, I'm in a really good place and I feel like I've figured out a lot of my crap and, and it's interesting being in this industry now because it's like some of that fire's gone or that edge has been taken off.

[Lewis Howes]

You know, you're peaceful and you're happy.

[Mark Manson]

I'm peaceful. Like, I'm good, man. I don't need to get angry about stuff.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Mark Manson]

And so.

[Lewis Howes]

So maybe it's let him go. Letting go of something or. Yeah, yeah. And also it's just enjoying it all now.

[Mark Manson]

It's like, that's what I would say is.

[Lewis Howes]

Is not having to freaking prove yourself or do the next big thing.

[Mark Manson]

That would be the skill.

[Lewis Howes]

That's interesting is.

[Mark Manson]

Is not like being. Just being. Being, you know, like, wow. Not feeling like I need to go conquer more stuff. Stuff. And. And I feel like I really. Especially in the last year or two, like, I. I really feel like I'm kind of arriving at that place where it's like, I've got a bunch of business goals, but it's just fun. Like, I'm just doing it because it's awesome and fun and I have goals in my personal life and my health and my relationships. But it's. It's really just. Because it's just good. It's just fun. It's, like, good for me. It's good for the people around me. There's nothing. I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not trying to, like, win anything or. It's just. It's a great place to be and I just really hope I can stay here. I don't get, like, sucked, you know.

[Lewis Howes]

Captivated by some chasing.

[Mark Manson]

Chasing some rat race somewhere, you know.

[Lewis Howes]

So I think that's really interesting you say that because there's a lot of people. Most people don't have that skill. Yeah, I think that is. And there's a season for that skill. Because I think when you're 22 and you're broke and you're trying to, like.

[Mark Manson]

You shouldn't have it.

[Lewis Howes]

Develop, you know, talents and skills where you can add value to people in society. You've gotta. Well, if hustle's the right word. But you gotta work hard, you gotta overcome challenges, you gotta deliver value. You gotta figure out what your path is. But there's a. I come back to this quote that Jim Carrey said a few years ago when he was, like, retiring. Although I just saw that he's got his, I think his final movies coming out right now. But the interview. Someone interviewed him, he's like, yeah, I think I'm done with. With, like, acting.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And the interviewer was really sad and he said, why? You can't. You're, like, so great and amazing. And he goes, I'm going to tell you something that I don't think any celebrity would ever tell you and that is that I have enough. I am enough. I have enough. I've done enough, and I am enough.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And he's like, I don't think any celebrity will ever tell you that.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But at Jim Carrey's age and success, like, he's got like three, four decades of fricking wins.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

And like, unlimited wealth and fame. So maybe at that level, he felt like, yes. But he didn't feel that 20 years prior. But it's. He felt he looked peaceful knowing that he doesn't have to go do more.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

To fulfill something for himself, to feel enough. And I think that's a very powerful skill. And even if you're in your 20s or 30s and you're like, well, I still want to do more.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

It's. How can you do it from a place of I am enough, no matter what the outcome is?

[Mark Manson]

Right. That's the key.

[Lewis Howes]

That is power.

[Mark Manson]

That's the key. And it's.

[Lewis Howes]

It's hard, though, because, like, what if you would have never sold this many copies or never been on your time, bestseller or never.

[Mark Manson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Would you still be like, oh, I gotta prove something. I gotta become better? To, like. Like, you're this thing.

[Mark Manson]

I don't know.

[Lewis Howes]

I.

[Mark Manson]

Maybe I'm naive, but I feel like a lot of older folks reach this place kind of naturally, you know, and it's. I don't know what you just described that feeling of enough. That, like, to me, that. That feels like the best definition of success.

[Unknown Guest]

Wow.

[Mark Manson]

That you could possibly have is having enough, man. So I don't know if I'm quite there, but this is definitely the closest I've ever been in my life. And I. And I'm definitely in a place too, where I'm not wanting for anything. I'm not, you know, I've got a great relationship, I've got friends, I've got hobbies, my health's good. My business is great. You know, so as long as nothing deteriorates, I've won already.

[Lewis Howes]

You've won big, man. And I think having peace with where you're at, because a lot of people, I think suffering is not being happy with where. What you have.

[Mark Manson]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

And it's like there are people that we know who have a lot that aren't happy or they still feel like they need more in order to fulfill something.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And that doesn't seem like peace to me.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I don't know, even if I feel like, oh, gosh, I've got all the money in the world or whatever it might be. I feel like I'm still going to want to pursue things, but not out of like proving people wrong or proving that I can do something, but just because it's going to serve people and it's going to serve me and I'm going to enjoy it. And I think that's where hopefully people can get.

[Mark Manson]

I think the service thing is the key. It kind of flips it around. Right. Like you, I think when you're young, you want to prove something, prove you're enough, have enough.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Mark Manson]

And then once you feel like you have enough stuff, you kind of just want to give it back. You kind of want to like help other people.

[Lewis Howes]

Up 100, man. Well, you're doing that in a big way with your YouTube series that you have and you do a lot of like kind of docu style videos on psychological skills and mindsets and things like that where people can learn. I want people to follow you on YouTube. What is the. What's the best place we can go follow you there or your site?

[Mark Manson]

Check out mark Manson on YouTube. I'm on all the social accounts. I'm on everything. Check out my podcast. I'm everywhere. You can't escape me, man.

[Lewis Howes]

That's it, man.

[Mark Manson]

Every bookstore, every site, everywhere.

[Lewis Howes]

It's great, man. Yeah. If you haven't checked out Subtle Art of not Giving a yet, check it out. If you're trying to learn how to stop people pleasing and to create boundaries, that's a great book.

[Mark Manson]

It's a good book for it.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. So check that out. Markmanson.net, you're doing a lot of long form content in your podcast as well. Right now you're diving deeper into subjects so people can check that out. Is it I am mark Manson on YouTube or is it Mark Manson? Do you know?

[Mark Manson]

Just Mark Manson?

[Lewis Howes]

Mark Manson on YouTube and everyone's social media. Where's your main platform? Is it Instagram or X or what do you like to share the most, like bite sized content?

[Mark Manson]

Instagram.

[Lewis Howes]

Instagram. Check out on Instagram Mark Manson over there.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Mark, appreciate you as always, man. Thanks for giving us these kind of skills I think will help us improve the quality of our life.

[Mark Manson]

Always my pleasure.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm excited, man. Thank you.

[Unknown Sponsor]

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening. Then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusive exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you of no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

[Mark Manson]

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