Relationship Expert: How To Date To Find The Person You Want To Marry

Summary

The School of Greatness Episode: Relationship Expert: How To Date To Find The Person You Want To Marry Host: Lewis Howes Guest: Martha Chandler Release Date: April 9, 2025

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Introduction: Setting the Stage for Intentional Relationships

In this compelling episode of The School of Greatness, host Lewis Howes engages in a transformative conversation with relationship expert Martha Chandler. The focus is on redefining the dating process with the ultimate goal of finding a life partner for marriage. This episode is an invaluable resource for anyone seeking to build meaningful, purposeful relationships.

The Philosophy of Dating to Marriage

Martha Chandler introduces a radical approach to dating: “The only destination for dating is marriage” ([06:03]). She emphasizes the importance of entering relationships with the intention of marriage, rather than casual dating. This mindset shift encourages individuals to seek alignment in values and visions from the onset, reducing the emotional rollercoaster often associated with long-term relationships.

Key Insights:

• Intentionality Over Casual Dating: Entering relationships with marriage in mind allows for deeper compatibility assessments.
• Alignment of Values: Ensuring shared values and long-term goals minimizes friction and stress.

Building a Relationship Roadmap

Creating a clear roadmap is crucial for navigating the journey from singlehood to a fulfilling marriage. Martha outlines a step-by-step process that begins with visionary work during the single phase.

Steps Highlighted:

1. Visionary Work When Single: Establish a clear picture of the desired marriage, including financial, romantic, and communication goals.
2. Intentional Dating Phase (12 Weeks to 8 Months): Focus on building friendship and chemistry without delving into deep, potentially overwhelming topics too early.
3. Evaluating Alignment and Flags: Assess relationships based on red, yellow, and green flags to determine long-term compatibility.

Identifying Red, Yellow, and Green Flags

Martha delves into the nuanced process of recognizing and categorizing relationship behaviors and traits.

• Green Flags ([48:58]): Positive indicators vetted by trusted communities. Example: Introducing a partner to close friends and family for objective insights.

• Yellow Flags ([50:06]): Traits that require further investigation. Example: A partner with significant debt needs to demonstrate plans for financial improvement.

• Red Flags ([51:47]): Deal-breakers that indicate fundamental incompatibility or unwillingness to grow. Example: Emotional unavailability or lack of ambition.

Notable Quote:

“Yellow flags mean more investigation needed. It’s not a deal breaker, but it’s not a no either.” – Martha Chandler ([50:19])

The Role of God in Relationships

Martha discusses the profound impact of having a spiritual foundation in a relationship. She argues that embedding God at the center provides a stable base for love, joy, and peace, making relationships more resilient and meaningful.

Key Points:

• Spiritual Alignment: A shared faith can enhance mutual support and understanding.
• Selflessness in Relationships: Inspired by biblical principles, prioritizing others’ needs fosters stronger, more nurturing partnerships.

Notable Quote:

“If you’ve received love, joy, peace, comfort from God, consider others’ needs above your own.” – Martha Chandler ([08:51])

The Roles of Men and Women in Marriage

Martha outlines traditional yet adaptable roles within a marriage, emphasizing protection and provision as key responsibilities for men, and nurturing and supporting as roles for women. She stresses that these roles are not rigid but are meant to complement each other within the family's unique mission.

Key Insights:

• Men as Protectors and Providers: Ensuring the physical and emotional safety of the family.
• Women as Nurturers and Prophetic Voices: Creating a nurturing environment and encouraging growth and resilience.

Notable Quote:

“A man’s role is to protect and provide, ensuring that there’s a roof over the family’s head and food on the table.” – Martha Chandler ([56:52])

Overcoming Challenges and Building a Strong Marriage

The conversation addresses common marital struggles, such as loss of identity and unmet expectations. Martha emphasizes the importance of maintaining individual purposes while supporting the collective mission of the marriage. She advocates for mentorship and wise counsel to navigate difficult seasons, ensuring that both partners grow together rather than drift apart.

Key Strategies:

• Maintaining Individual Purpose: Balancing personal goals with marital commitments.
• Seeking Mentorship: Leveraging external guidance to strengthen the relationship.
• Creating Memories: Valuing and building shared experiences to reinforce the marital bond.

Notable Quote:

“Make great memories. One mentor told me, the one thing I regret is I did not enjoy the journey.” – Martha Chandler ([82:40])

Conclusion: Embracing Intentional Love for Lasting Greatness

Lewis Howes wraps up the episode by highlighting the profound lessons shared by Martha Chandler. The emphasis is on living intentionally, building strong foundations, and fostering growth within relationships. This episode serves as a roadmap for listeners aiming to transition from casual dating to a deeply rooted, purposeful marriage.

Final Takeaways:

• Intentional Dating Leads to Fulfilling Marriages: Approaching relationships with clear intentions and values.
• Continuous Growth and Adaptation: Embracing change and supporting each other’s growth ensures a resilient partnership.
• Creating a Legacy Together: Focusing on shared missions and collective impact enriches the marital journey.

Notable Quote:

“What you're going to do is pick the right person for you. The Bible says he who finds a good wife finds favor from the Lord.” – Martha Chandler ([72:53])

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Key Highlights:

• Vision and Intentionality: Establishing a clear vision for marriage ensures alignment and reduces future conflicts.
• Flag Identification: Differentiating between red, yellow, and green flags helps in making informed relationship decisions.
• Spiritual Foundation: Incorporating faith into relationships fosters deeper connections and mutual support.
• Defined Roles with Flexibility: Understanding traditional roles while allowing for personal growth and adaptability strengthens partnerships.
• Mentorship and Memory Building: Seeking guidance and creating shared experiences are essential for a lasting and impactful marriage.

This episode of The School of Greatness by Lewis Howes offers invaluable insights and practical advice for building meaningful, lasting relationships aimed at marriage. By adopting Martha Chandler’s intentional approach, listeners can navigate the complexities of modern dating and cultivate relationships built on strong foundations of love, faith, and mutual growth.

Transcript

[Lewis Howes]

I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you are looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then.

[Stephen Chandler]

Make sure to go to make moneyeasybook.com.

[Lewis Howes]

Right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment. Moving forward, we have some big guests and content coming up.

[Stephen Chandler]

Make sure you're following and stay tuned to this episode on the School of Greatness. It is a blessed and beautiful day and I hope you are feeling blessed and grateful for all that you have in your life right now. And if you're feeling stuck or trapped or overwhelmed in some area of your life, trust me, I know the pain. I've been there for many different years off and on. And it is a journey to creating peace, healing and wholeness inside of you. And if you are feeling overwhelmed in a relationship, if you're feeling like you don't have a good relationship with yourself or with others, then this is going to be a powerful episode because this is all about how to create that beautiful relationship with intention and purpose and how to challenge modern assumptions about relationships if you've been struggling in a relationship. I've had five, six, maybe seven long term relationships that all struggled for me, that were all hard, that all were up and down emotional roller coasters that were all just like, why can't we just make this work? Why is it so challenging? Why is there so much stress and friction and sabotage? And it wasn't until I started to do deeper reflection, deeper healing work and start creating a relationship with myself from a place of peace and wholeness when I was able to create and attract a relationship in my life of the same mirror image. In this episode, we are talking with an aspiring guy named Steven Chandler who's going to talk about the process of dating and staying in a healthy relationship. We dive deep into why the only destination for dating should be marriage, which is something that I never thought about. I was actually like, maybe this will happen, but let's see. And let me just get to know you first. And this and this. It was never thinking, okay, what are we really in alignment early on? Are we really on the right path or are we just, you know, attracted to each other physically and we have fun and we like each other, so we're going to start investing all this time and energy and realize that we're actually not in alignment. We don't have the same values or the vision and we have a lot of friction, actually. And I'm not saying you're never going to have friction, but it shouldn't be friction every day. I mean, it's exhausting when you have that. So we dive deep on all these things and how to identify red flags versus yellow flags versus green flags and why having a clear vision is essential before bringing someone into your life. Because, man, I brought a lot of people into my life in the past and it caused a lot of pain and a lot of problems and a lot of setbacks and all these different things. And once I got clear, once I was able to go on the healing journey and create wholeness within me, that's when I was able to create wholeness outside of me. So if you are stuck or struggling in a relationship in your life, or you feel like your relationship with yourself is not where it needs to be, then this is the episode for you and I hope you enjoy it. I hope I'm excited for you to be here. Please make sure to subscribe to our podcast if you haven't yet over on Apple or Spotify and share your review your feedback on this episode on Apple Podcasts so I can hear your thoughts on your review here. I'm so grateful for you and let's go ahead and dive in. Today's episode, the School of Greatness, is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. As Amica says, empathy is our best policy. That's why they'll go above and beyond to tailor your insurance coverage to best fit your needs. Whether you're on the road at home or traveling along life's journey, their friendly and knowledgeable representatives will work with you to ensure you have the right coverage in place. Amica will provide you with peace of mind. Go to amica.com and get a quote.

[Martha]

Today, as America's leading business lender, bank of America is on your corner and in your corner. With $215 billion in business loans and over 3,700 business specialists across the nation, we help businesses throughout thrive so communities prosper. What would you like the power to do? Learn [e-mail] Local Business bank of America Official bank of FIFA Club World Cup 2025 Copyright 2025, bank of America Corporation. All rights reserved.

[Stephen Chandler]

Every step, every mile, every Cause at the Boston Marathon Presented by Bank of America. Thousands of athletes are running for more than time. Some for a cure, others for their community, but all of them for a cause that matters. Join bank of America in supporting fundraising athletes. Find a runner, help a cause and give if you [e-mail] helpacause what would.

[Lewis Howes]

You like the power to do?

[Stephen Chandler]

Bank of America? References to charitable organizations are not an endorsement by bank of America Corporation. Copyright 2025.

[Lewis Howes]

You say we should not be dating unless it's to get married. Isn't that right?

[Martha]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Lewis Howes]

How do you phrase that, though?

[Martha]

So the only destination for dating is marriage. And if you go into dating and marriage is not your intention, not that you have to marry the first person you date, but if that's not your intention to find a spouse, you will get yourself in trouble. One of my thoughts is, that was me. A marriage license is the only license that they will give you. With no training, no education, no test that you have to pass.

[Lewis Howes]

Isn't that crazy?

[Martha]

If you tell them you want one, they'll just hand it to you. And there's principles that we apply to building business, to getting into shape, fitness, to building wealth. And there's principles to relationships just as much. But if you don't know to look for them, oh, you're not gonna find them.

[Lewis Howes]

Did you have a good foundation or training when you were growing up as a young boy developing your teens and early twenties, did you have a foundation of what healthy, conscious marriage looks like?

[Martha]

Oh, yes and no.

[Lewis Howes]

Make you uncomfortable already.

[Martha]

It's funny. You said, what's off limits? And I'm like, nothing. And then you start with, what's off limits? No. So I have phenomenal parents. My mom and my dad were married for 34 years. My mom passed away from cancer in 2013, which is actually the same year I got married, but so I had that model 34 years of a beautiful marriage to watch. But nobody's perfect. And everybody has their own, you know, things that they bring to a marriage and a relationship and all that. So I had great picture of what it could be, and I also had a great picture of what I didn't want.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, but also, sometimes a great model isn't always the right roadmap. Right. It's may not. They may not be giving you the direction. They may be showing something. Here's a beautiful destination. How do you get there?

[Martha]

So I had a great model. I had no roadmap.

[Lewis Howes]

Exactly.

[Martha]

I always. I always laugh and joke. I am. I've been married for 11 years, going on 12. I got three kids, and I'm still waiting for the intimacy talk from my dad. Never came in middle school, never came in high school, was kind of just like, go figure it out. So a lot of us leave home and nobody gave us that roadmap. But I'm blessed to have had some great mentors in my life. One gentleman told me, he said, stephen, there are two decisions that will define the rest of your life. What you do with God and who you choose to spend the rest of your life with. He said, a lot of other decisions you can undo, you can redo, but those two, he said, you can't get those two wrong. And with that thought and a lot of more kind of ideas in that space, really kind of just brought intentionality from young.

[Lewis Howes]

What you do with God and who you choose to spend the rest of your life with, those are the two.

[Martha]

Most important decisions, two most important decisions you will make in your life.

[Lewis Howes]

Do you think people can have a healthy, loving, abundant relationship if they do not have God at the center of the relationship?

[Martha]

Ooh. I will say it is very difficult, and here's why. There's a verse in the Bible that says, if you've received love, comfort, joy from God, consider others needs above your, else your own.

[Lewis Howes]

Say that one more time.

[Martha]

If you've received love, joy, peace, comfort from God, consider others needs above your own. Really, one of the keys of making a relationship thrive is when you're in that relationship more for what you can give than what you can get. But if I'm living life from a deficit, I will look at every relationship of what I can get out, and I will what I need, what I need, and I will bankrupt that relationship because no human was designed to give me everything that I need.

[Lewis Howes]

It's almost like you're taking money out of an account that you're not depositing. Yeah. You're not depositing in and is running dry. Maybe.

[Martha]

Absolutely. So when I found my identity in God, I found comfort in God. I found inner peace in God. Then I can step into a relationship not in a deficit, and I can have the desire to serve more than receive. And you know how it works. It's the reciprocity. When I give, I always get back more than I ever was able to give. So it's not going to say impossible, but it's very difficult.

[Lewis Howes]

It's more challenging. But I mean, you could also say people watching or listening might say, well, I know people that are religious or believe in God or go to church together, but they have miserable marriages. They have challenging relationships, and either they have God at the center, or it seems like they do. But why are they divorced? Why are they struggling? Why is there infidelity why is there deceit? Why is this still happening to these individuals? And I'm sure you've seen people struggle in your church as well.

[Martha]

I get in trouble as a pastor for this because obviously I'm a pastor. So it's God first, God over everything, which is 100% true. But I will tell people, shared faith is not enough reason to marry somebody. It is a part of a healthy marriage, but it is not the totality of a healthy marriage. And you know, even in the church community for your Christian audience, we're told, you know, find a Christian, it's better for your life with them. And yeah, it's a little bit more than that. If I haven't unpacked past pain, if I don't have a clear vision for what I want to build, I don't know how to communicate, if I haven't found peace internally, if I haven't gotten over this selfishness deal and a heart to actually serve, I can bankrupt a relationship and still have God in my life and still bankrupt that relationship.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. So you could have God at the center of your life, but lack the skills, the tools or the self awareness on how to be a good partner.

[Martha]

Absolutely.

[Lewis Howes]

And that's going to hurt a relationship.

[Martha]

It will. Every single time.

[Lewis Howes]

So we need the skills that. It sounds like the roadmap. You learn the skills along the way with the roadmap to get you to the destination. But what I'm hearing you say also is we should not. Unless you're like in high school or something, or it's just like a fling. You shouldn't be getting into a committed relationship unless you see the possibility of wanting to marry.

[Martha]

Here's how I would describe that. It would be as if someone went to medical school, finished residency, and their career path is, I'm going to be a doctor and they decide to take a three year job working at a construction firm. Good job, great job, pay the bills. Yeah, we meet great people. It will not move you towards the goal of being a physician. It won't prepare you. It's sideways energy. It's a detour. And if you're living an intentional life and you've got a destination, I'm not even saying marriage is the destination. Let's say greatness is the destination. The more detours you take, the more you delay getting to where you want to go. And if we were humble enough, we would say there's people that we dated that were detour.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Martha]

That were. Absolutely.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm sure, I'm sure Those people would say that about me, too.

[Martha]

Absolutely.

[Lewis Howes]

And it doesn't mean we were bad people. We didn't have good intentions. But if we're not thinking of that in mind, then it's like. It's not a distraction. Because I feel like every relationship is also an experience that educates us, that also gives to us, and hopefully we give to the other person. But it's just. You're taking a detour still if you're not intending for it to go there. And the longer you stay in that relationship, the longer it takes for you to then find the person you're going to be with.

[Martha]

And potentially the more damaged your heart is.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, yeah.

[Martha]

Which takes time to unpack and heal, which delays. Here's one of the things people are. Oh, we dated, we had a good time. It didn't work out. You know, it was no big deal. No, no, no, no. The most valuable thing you have is. Is your time. Not. Not your money. You could always make more money. You can never make more time. And the Bible says wherever your time goes, your heart is going to follow it.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Martha]

So it's impossible to spend one year, two year, three years. So your heart not go. And there'd be a sense of devastation when it does not work out. So.

[Lewis Howes]

And it takes time to heal and kind of let go of that old identity again. Yeah. And move on and not think about that person.

[Martha]

As. I'll talk to people, you know, single folks or whatever, they'll say, you know, all men are or all women are. And I'm like, you haven't met all men. You have it. But you are now seeing a lens of the world from one person you encountered and had a negative experience with. It takes time to unpack that. Nobody lives a perfect life. But the more of that you can avoid, the faster you can make progress towards a goal you have for your life.

[Lewis Howes]

What is the problem with having sex in a relationship before marriage?

[Martha]

Oh, it messes your head up. So there's a couple. There's a couple aspects to that. One is it literally does impair your ability to make healthy decisions. Almost everybody would admit I stayed in a relationship longer than I should have. And I can't quite explain to you why I did. I knew it wasn't gonna work. I knew it wasn't the one. And six months later, I'm still there trying to make it work. And what they don't realize is the physical intimacy brought a sense of responsibility, mentally, that I have to help this person through whatever they're struggling with. Or help them accomplish this goal or whatever. And it blinds your judgment of red flags, yellow flags. It delays the exit parachute because you're more committed than you ought to be.

[Lewis Howes]

Gosh, this is. It clouds your judgment so much when you create that chemical bonding, that sexual intimacy. And something that I think about is if you're in a relationship or you're dating someone, if you weren't having sex with them, would you want to spend 10 years with them, 20 years with them if there was no sex?

[Martha]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Do you enjoy their company, their conversation? Do you have the similar values? Are you going in the same direction? And would you want to be with them? If that wasn't there, that was off the table? A lot of people wouldn't.

[Martha]

And it's one of the. That's going to sound bad. It's one of the most shallow levels to pick a partner off of because, oh, you know, we have great intimacy. Yeah. But, you know, that could be true with a litany of people. We have great conversation. Uh. Oh, that narrows the list, man. We have shared vision and dreams. Oh, that even narrows the list, man. When I'm around them, they replenish me. And they built. There are a lot deeper levels to make decisions on than just, you know, sexual compatibility or whatever it may be. But once you start there, you get stuck there. And it's harder to evaluate someone at any other level. They're not gonna like to hear that.

[Lewis Howes]

No, they don't wanna hear that, man. Especially in the modern world. People don't wanna think about before marriage because it seems like, what's the point?

[Martha]

The other thing is, it puts you in a position because it is my belief that we were made by God for sex. So it puts you in the position to make a decision faster. When I could date you for five years, I could date you for 10 years because there's no physical urgency that is driving me to make a decision.

[Lewis Howes]

What do you mean by that? What do you mean? It makes us decide faster, I think, if we're having it or not having it.

[Martha]

If we are not having it.

[Lewis Howes]

Because then we're like.

[Martha]

Because it is a godly desire. It is a godly desire. It is an outlet of stress, all that other kind of stuff. So when I don't have it, it's like, okay, I've got to figure out, how can I put myself in a position where that's a part of my life, and if marriage is the only option for me, then I'm going to be a lot more intentional about getting to marriage faster. So I'm not going to date people that I know are not marriage material.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Martha]

I'm not going to stay in a relationship that I know is not headed towards marriage. I will have a lot higher standards. Can I say it this way when I want to have sex?

[Lewis Howes]

Sure.

[Martha]

Relegated it to marriage.

[Lewis Howes]

That's interesting. So if men or women take sex off the table, how much happier do you think they would be in the dating phase or in the relationship phase before marriage?

[Martha]

Here's what I will say. It depends on what else is on the table. Because just like God is not the totality of every relationship, sex is not either. So if you take sex off the table, but you still can't communicate, you still don't have clear vision, there's not going to be much joy there. But if you are taking sex off the table because you're making a decision, I'm going to be intentional about this entire process. I am telling you, you will have greater joy and you will have greater success in the long run.

[Lewis Howes]

So for a lot of people who are watching or listening, they probably have struggled in relationships and they're not sure on how to make theirs the best possible they can right now. Maybe they're going through a challenge right now. And it seems like we've got single phase, dating phase, committed dating phase, and then a choice to be married and committed. Hopefully long term phase and marriage. Right. What would be the step by step process then from being single to getting into a relationship that will lead to a beautiful, loving marriage?

[Martha]

I will say this, you've got to do the visionary work when you're single before you bring anybody into the picture.

[Lewis Howes]

What does that look like?

[Martha]

So my children, I got three kids, eight, six and three. And our new obsession is puzzles. So we'll build thousand piece, five thousand piece puzzle or whatever. And if you ever built a puzzle, you know the picture is on the COVID of the box.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Martha]

And then all of your time is just trying to create the picture that you see. A lot of people go into dating and they've never established a picture of marriage that they want to build. So you've got to start with what is my end destination, where do I want to go? Do you remember back in the day before there was GPS and you had to go on a computer and punch your directions in and all that, it.

[Lewis Howes]

Says napquest or whatever, all that other good stuff.

[Martha]

What's your current location and what's your final destination? And let me give you some final destination questions. Not just I want to be married, but what do we want our life to look like financially? What do I want our life to look like romantically? What do I want our life to look like with communication and all that? Now that I've got a picture and it can't be too specific, that only one person on the globe can fit into this picture, but man, a woman or a man, they can fit into that picture. Now I'm out just looking for who's the person that can fit into the picture that I have. So that's step one. You got to have a vision. Step two is don't waste your time with anybody who can't fit into that picture. Be intentional, but in the beginning, you know, exchange numbers. We go on a date, whatever it may be. We've decided we're going to date and be exclusive. It is so important that that first season. And if you ask me, I'll give you a timeline. If you don't, I won't push it.

[Lewis Howes]

What's the timeline?

[Martha]

I say this. No shorter than 12 weeks and not much longer than eight months.

[Lewis Howes]

So just dating, a dating phase of just having fun. Oh, really?

[Martha]

And what I find is some people, they get too heavy to sue. So it's like the first date. How many kids you want to have? Oh, wow, what's your credit score? You know, what's your idea of wealth? And it's just like, I don't even know you and I don't even know if I like you. Let's just enjoy life. Because for friendship is one of the greatest foundations of any healthy marriage.

[Lewis Howes]

But what if I want to push back and ask you about this? What if, man, you can have fun with this person, but you haven't asked the tough questions until three, six, eight months in and you realize, oh, our values are not aligned. Like, we can go out and have great dinner and go bowling and go travel and man, we have great conversation and same interest, but. Oh, they actually don't want kids.

[Martha]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, they're actually in debt 100 grand. That scares me. Oh, actually, they got on the debt thing. Oh, they actually don't want to, you know, raise our kids in this way. Yeah, yeah, they, you know, their in laws are so intertwined in the relationship that it's too. Whatever it is, you know, how can we ask questions that make sure they fit the picture without interrogating them too much?

[Martha]

So let me go out on a limb. What is in a person's heart will come out their mouth. It is impossible for what is in your heart not to come out of your Mouth. So in that, yes, you're having fun, but you're observing. Yes, you're watching. Hold on. We've been together for six months. You've never even mentioned your parents. Like that's going to be very obvious. Hey, we've been hanging out for four months. You've never introduced me to your friends without interrogating them. If you're paying attention. You may not know if they want to have kids or not. I'm getting in trouble. But if that's the person that you want to spend the rest of your life with, that may not be a deal breaker. Once you fall in love with them.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting. Or they may say, I want to have a kid with you. With you.

[Martha]

Yeah. And they may. And they make your opinion.

[Lewis Howes]

You know what's interesting? There was, as I reflect back on all the challenging relationships that didn't work out. But that taught me beautiful lessons.

[Martha]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

I don't blame any of these individuals. I was equally a part of them. There's something you asked me before we started the conversation. And you said something around the fact of, like, how did you know she was the one for me? Martha. And I didn't really give you the clearest answer, but I knew she could be the one. When I realized she was resourceful enough to take care of our future kids if we had them. And something happened to me where I died, where I was no longer able to provide. I trusted that she was a resourceful woman, that she was a spiritual woman, that she was able to do things where she could provide and value in so many other ways to children if we decided to have them and if we decided to get married. All these different things a few months in.

[Martha]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I was like, this is a woman. And I was always dating girls.

[Martha]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Where I felt like I had to rescue. Or they weren't resourceful. But this person I can trust with my kids. And that made me feel like, oh, this is. Maybe she's not the one, but she could be the one.

[Martha]

It was like a feeling, this conversation. It might end a few relationships. Hopefully it starts. I was dating this girl. I was actually in high school at the time, and I was dating this girl. And my mom just couldn't stand her. But my mom knew I was stubborn enough that if she told me, I'd have stayed in it a lot longer. And she said something along the lines of. She said two things. She said, one, steven, I'm pretty much the same girl I was when I was 16, and she's like 54 at the time. She said, I've matured and all that, but my personality is what she was saying is, Steven, you're waiting for this girl to change and she's not going to change. The other thing she said is pick somebody that you wouldn't mind raising your children, which is kind of like what you just said.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind raising them. Yeah. Yeah.

[Martha]

Listen, a lot of us will stay in a toxic relationship because we're like, I can handle it. You know, it's what it look crazy but you know, I can deal with it all. But then when you kind of step back and you do what you said if I wasn't here, is this who I want my daughter to become like? Is this who I want my son to become like? Is their values what I want to shape the legacy of my. All of a sudden you begin to narrow that and say no, no, or and this is for some of the people that are watching this conversation. There's a good friend that you've kept in the friend zone for a long time. And if you were to take a step back and you'd realize this is the type of person that has the values that I want my family to have. And maybe you're, you're overlooking someone that.

[Stephen Chandler]

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[Lewis Howes]

Maybe I'll just speak for myself in my 20s, but why do so many of us choose people over, over with sexual connection over friendship to be in relationships of like attraction? Yeah, wow, we have a great connection or they're a great kisser, they look so good. Or we're like compelled by the physical versus the spiritual or the friendship.

[Martha]

Well, let me give you the answer that you probably wouldn't expect the pastor to say. Physical matters. Physical matters, you see before you hear, you see before you experience. And I believe God made us that way. I think there is someone for everybody. So I think everybody is attractive to somebody. But at the end of the day, I've got to wake up next to you every single day. I've got to lay eyes on you. And I know we grow, life change, bodies change and all that, but I don't think that physical attraction should be discredited or ignored. And I mean, let's be real. Nobody wants to be in a relationship with someone that they're not attracted to me, but they like my mind or you know, I've got a great personality.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm a good person.

[Martha]

Yeah, you don't want to hear that. So I think physical attraction is the first step. The issue is most people, it's kind of like credit cards or whatever it may be. Most people don't have the self control.

[Lewis Howes]

No.

[Martha]

To be able to manage the physical attraction, that's important. It's a part but it's not the totality. And I've got to be intentional enough. Okay. Physical attraction is ticked off on the list, but now let me go deeper and see if there's other things there that make it worth taking a step forward. So I wouldn't discredit it altogether. And you said in your 20s. Well, that's, you know, some of the most immature seasons of our lives. Ain't nobody thinking very deep in their 20s. So that's kind of the.

[Lewis Howes]

I always think about this. I don't know how people get married in their 20s, because for me, I just feel like I would have been married and divorced.

[Martha]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

If I would, or I just had a really challenging time. If I'd have gotten married the way that I know I thought in my 20s, or just my ability to manage my emotions or just all that stuff, I would have really struggled. Do you think people should wait longer to get married or getting married young is a good thing?

[Martha]

Absolutely not. Get married young.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Martha]

Okay. So I'm a good. So when I got married, I was 26. I wanted to get married at 23. I blame my wife. I'm like. I don't know what she was. She was wasting my time. Where was she at? But I got married when I was 26. She was 25.

[Lewis Howes]

How long were you dating for?

[Martha]

Okay. Why are you getting me in trouble? Okay, so here's the whole story. We dated for 10 months. So first date was December. Actually, no, I'm talking about first date to marriage.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. So how long did you know her for?

[Martha]

That's the thing. Two years.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay, so we knew her.

[Martha]

We knew her dating family. We were friends for two years. So it was. It wasn't something I was learning.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Martha]

So anyway, first date in December. We got married the August of. So not even a full year, but. And like you said, man, if I got married in my 20s, there'd be so many challenges that I'd face. We faced all of them.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Martha]

100%. Right. But here's the deal. When you get married in your 30s, you face those challenges. When you get married in your 40s, you face those. So here's what I'll tell people. It's like investing for retirement. The earlier you start that compound interest. Sorry.

[Lewis Howes]

I know, man. It's so hard.

[Martha]

Pays off.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. If you can get through it together.

[Martha]

If you can get through it together.

[Lewis Howes]

But if you can't, it's going to be five, ten years of stress.

[Martha]

One of the things that I say in the book is that Marriage was never supposed to be done in isolation. I actually tell people, do not date or marry someone that doesn't have great mentors in their life, whether it's family members or just wise counsel in their life. And those difficult seasons that you talk about that I'd like to submit. Nobody gets through marriage without facing those difficult seasons. And you come out stronger on the other side. When you've got wise mentors around you, what are they going to tell you? We've been through the same thing. Oh, you want to kill each other? Yeah, Been there, done that, bought the T shirt. You'll make it through. Oh, you're just being prideful. You need to humble yourself. Oh, no, that's major. Y'all need to go to counseling. You've got people to walk you through the journey, and all of a sudden you realize, no, this is normal. This is powerful. A lot of people jump out of a marriage because they didn't have anybody in their life to tell you this is normal. Most people go, it's going to sound bad. I think every married couple at some point in their life have secretly thought, oh, God, I married the wrong person.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Martha]

Oh, I just made the worst decision of my life. It's just part of the journey. But if you don't have wise people in your life, you're going to think, a, you're the only person experiencing this, and B, this is a reason to make a lifetime change. When the right mentor in your life is able to say no, then they're done. That that's normal or no, it is as major as you think it is, and this may be a reason for a lifetime change.

[Lewis Howes]

When you were working on the writing of this book, Relationship Roadmap, what was something that you realized that you believe in? Maybe you preach at your church frequently and, you know, really works well in a marriage that you went against or struggled with earlier in your marriage.

[Martha]

Ooh.

[Lewis Howes]

Or was it a challenge for you to fully embrace in your journey?

[Martha]

Yeah, I think one of the things that I had to learn in marriage is while I believe as a husband, it's my job to lead my family, it is more important for me to love my family than to lead my family. So in our space, you know, especially, you know, most of your audience, they're trying to maximize their life. They're building phenomenal careers, businesses, and all that other good stuff. You see almost everything in your life as, what's the opportunity? What's the next major thing? And I realized I was pushing my wife to accomplish goals that she didn't have for herself, really, and didn't slow down enough to realize not what do you see her as, but what's in her heart that she wants to do. And I also.

[Lewis Howes]

So you were pushing and driving and trying to accomplish a creator. Let's do this.

[Martha]

That's what I did in every other area of my life.

[Lewis Howes]

Push everything as opposed to just, how can I be in love?

[Martha]

Absolutely. And I was missing the opportunity to create memories and moments because I could only see what was next, which is. I mean, it's immaturity. But you imagine we all do it, though. All you think about is marriage.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. I mean, the thing you say is the first two steps in your roadmap is have a clear vision, like the picture in mind, and don't waste your time essentially on anyone who can't fit that picture. But if you have that same approach towards goal accomplishment, this is the end result. We got to go do this. You're not enjoying the moments in the present.

[Martha]

The danger of vision is panic and insecurity. If you feel like that vision is possibly not going to come to pass, you begin to push at unhealthy paces, and you can bring that into a relationship.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. So that was something you did early on.

[Martha]

Oh, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Martha]

Oh, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

When did you wake up to it and say, okay, I just need to create memories and moments and be present day by day, even if it's not pushing towards my timeline of this goal?

[Martha]

Well, I think there was a couple of factors. One was, I thought marriage was going to bring a relief from the exhaustion of leading and building.

[Lewis Howes]

The weight.

[Martha]

The weight of it. That emotional drain. And when I was in the marriage and still as exhausted as I was before, like, oh, dude, you're doing something wrong, because it's not bringing the relief. And then you realize it was me all along. It wasn't this person or whatever else.

[Lewis Howes]

It's not going to fix something, I mean, or solve something. Yeah.

[Martha]

I think one thing that we don't talk about in terms of this journey of vision and greatness is there is some peace that comes with success for some people.

[Lewis Howes]

For some people, it's like, what's next?

[Stephen Chandler]

What's next?

[Lewis Howes]

What's next? It's not enough.

[Martha]

But I think some of my goals started to become accomplished, and I began to realize, okay, Stephen, you can calm down, you can slow down. And also, if you don't, you're not going to like the person you're becoming, really. So you probably need to take a step back, really. And I think feeling the exhaustion when I thought it'd be gone after marriage and some of those goals being accomplished at ages far before I thought they were going to be accomplished, I realized, okay, you kind of need to chill out a little bit and live life, not just drive life, really.

[Lewis Howes]

So you accomplish a lot of your big goals and dreams earlier than you expected.

[Martha]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And then you realize, I need to take some pauses or take some breaks or be more present.

[Martha]

You realize there's more to life than just the next goal.

[Lewis Howes]

It's interesting you say that because Michael Todd, when he was on here, he said early on he had a mentor. When he was getting into his, you know, becoming a pastor and learning how about how to be, you know, an effective leader, he said he had a mentor who told him, you need to take a month off every year. No matter how successful, how busy, how many people want your time and attention, how many opportunities. Yeah, yeah, you need to schedule a month off, otherwise it's going to trap you, you know, and it's. You're going to burn out.

[Martha]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And he said he always does that every year. I think he does it every year. But he even said, I had one of his last books that came out was a New York Times bestseller for like 16 weeks in a row. He goes, I had all these opportunities to go do more press, but I had this scheduled in for this month, and the week I left to stop doing press, the book came off the New York Times bestseller list. But I'm at peace with that because I know I'm in this for the long term and not just trying to grab everything right now.

[Martha]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And so it sounds like you have a similar approach to making sure you either have days, weeks, or time where you reflect, recover, and relax.

[Martha]

Life will always give you opportunities that are not worth taking. Every opportunity has a cost, and you've got to make the decision. I'm not willing to pay that cost. What's the cost? I'm not willing to lose my health. I'm not willing to lose the relationships that matter to me or whatever is on your list. And, you know, early on, you say yes to everything.

[Lewis Howes]

You have to.

[Martha]

You have to. Because there's not a lot of trying to survive, man.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Martha]

But after a while, it is your nose that catapults you forward.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Martha]

Not your yeses. And for driven people, that is so hard to figure out. I say this when it comes in. I put this in the book, actually started the book off talking about I had, you know, a great personal success, and it was just email came, it was mind blowing and all that. And you know, in my space as a pastor, I can't get on Instagram, be like, ah, look at me now. Like, that's not very appropriate. So I go home, I turn on the radio, unblasted outcast. I'm on the kitchen countertop going off and my wife comes, she jumps on the countertop. We're just celebrating. And I finally learned how to make moments. And in that moment it struck me, and I hope this kind of shakes somebody. What use is it of accomplishing greatness if when I get there, I've got nobody to share it with? The moment doesn't really become a moment if there's not people there that can scream and shout and just fully celebrate me in that moment. That's what marriage is. And a lot of times I think some people just see marriage as inconvenience. It's just like I got this other miserable person that I got to keep happy. I can't even keep myself happy. Like, I don't got the time for that. I'm too busy hitting this goal and hitting that. And what if you accomplished every goal in your life before you died? What would you do in that gap between all my goals are accomplished and I leave this earth? I'll tell you what you want to do. You want to spend time with your grandkids. You want to impart all the wisdom you received to the next generation. You want to sit down with your spouse and say, look at what we built, look at what we accomplished. But you've got to start making that investment in your early 20s before, you know, that time comes.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. There's an amazing book called Die with Zero that talks about memory dividends. And if we're not creating these moments now and having time to reflect on them now, Also in our 20s, 30s, 40s, or whatever, we won't have the dividends of the memories later as well. We've got to enjoy those moments and make moments and be present to them. But you said something about opportunities. Life will always give you opportunities that.

[Martha]

Are not worth paying the cost for.

[Lewis Howes]

How do you know which opportunities to take and which ones not to. And in relationships or in business or life.

[Martha]

Yeah. So you have got to have a set of personal values before you step out of the house of. There are certain compromises I will not make for any cost. And it is for wisdom's sake, because it's not like I'm just this highly moral, better than everybody else type of person. I know that compromise will Lead me to a place I don't want to go. So hopefully all of us have some level of moral value where there are certain things we will not lie, we won't steal. There's certain things we won't do for success. We should have values of, I'm not going to compromise my health. I've got to be able to sleep at night, I've got to be able to eat well, I've got to have time for physical exercise. Why? Because I'm going to end up on an operating table before I can accomplish all the goals of my life. So it's that. And it doesn't have to be a deep list, but it needs to be moral, it needs to be health. I think it needs to be relational that I am not willing to sacrifice these key relationships for any level of success. And then every opportunity that comes, I then determine, is this going to cause me to compromise one of my values? Which is really scary. So this year I decided I'm going to cut back my travel.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[Martha]

Last year I traveled 53 different engagements. So that's almost once a week. And you know how it works. You try to pile them all into one week. So some of those are like three.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. You're on the road constantly traveling time zones, different beds, different foods, you're out of your routine, you're not with your family, all these things.

[Martha]

But I've got an 8 year old, a 6 year old and a 3 year old. Yeah. My 8 year old is a female girl and she's starting to notice when daddy's gone. And I said, Man, 8 to 16, 8 to 18, you only got you handful of years. You only got a handful of years. Ten years from now, she'll be 18. Ten years from now, I'll be 48. I can travel and speak all over the globe from 48 to 100. I cannot spend those years with her ever again. I made the decision, I'm going to cut back, travel, and I'm going to make sure that I tuck them in bed at night and I'm dropping them off at school in the morning as much as possible.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Martha]

You know what happened? Every speaking engagement I ever wanted, they.

[Lewis Howes]

All came to you. They tempt you.

[Martha]

Where were y'all?

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Yeah. When I was on the road, I was a freaking road dog over here.

[Martha]

You know, running around just like, hey, can you come do this? Yep. No. Oh, man. But I made a decision along with my wife. These are certain things that I am not willing to compromise for any goal or level. And here's what I just know. You can call it God, you can call it life, but I know whatever sacrifices you make based on personal value, you will never go without. You will always reap a reward on the other side of that decision a lot greater than anything you sacrifice.

[Lewis Howes]

How can someone trust that though? If they're like, man, there's this massive opportunity where it could bring me money or some deal flow or some person that's going to help me further my career and I'm going to say no to it and trust that it's going to eventually come somewhere else and I stick to these values.

[Martha]

So there's two ways and both of them stick. One is you just gotta live long enough. There are certain things that only time will prove to you. The other way is you gotta trust somebody else's work. You gotta have a mentor who's been there and done that, who says one of two things. I didn't trust that and I regret it. Don't make the mistake I made or I did and I'm so glad I did. I'm cautioning you to follow in my footsteps. But if you're not gonna learn from time and you're not gonna learn from a mentor, you go learn the hard way, man.

[Stephen Chandler]

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[Lewis Howes]

And I feel great.

[Stephen Chandler]

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[Lewis Howes]

Speaking of the roadmap, the first step was having a clear vision. And I think that's really important is like, we have to at least have an idea of what we want. We're just like, I don't know, let me just date a bunch of people. You're gonna get a bunch of different things, but I think you gotta have a clear vision of like the type of relationship you want and don't waste time with anyone who can't fit into that vision. What would be the next few steps on the relationship roadmap?

[Martha]

So you got that season. 12 weeks to eight months where we're seeing are we friends? Chemistry is what we call it. Do I enjoy being around this person? And then after that, you need to have a season where you are determining how closely aligned are our values or are the yellow flags that I absolutely identified over the last eight months of having fun, are they red flags or can they be turned into green flags?

[Lewis Howes]

How do you know the difference between yellow, green and red flags?

[Martha]

Well, that's major. Here's what I would say on green flags. Don't trust your green flags because whether you are intimate or not, you got that puppy love going on. You can't think straight. So make sure that the person you're interested in, it'll sound very corporate. Is vetted by your trusted community. Get them around friends who know you better than you know yourself. Really get them around. Absolutely. And I'll even get more trouble. If you're a man and you're dating a woman, get that girl you're interested in around other females that you trust. Because women have a way of tricking all of us guys. I mean, if she's pretty, she's gorgeous, none of us are thick as straight. No, no, no. Get her around a woman that ain't impressed and that knows all the tricks and, you know, vice versa. So that's a green flag. Yellow flags. You mentioned it and I kind of crunched, oh, they have $100,000 worth of debt. Okay, hold on. Debt can be paid off. Like, would you really miss out on a really great person? Because financially, depends how it is though.

[Lewis Howes]

If it's like, oh, they invested in, like, going to school because they have a vision for their life. And this was a part of that. Versus they got 28 credit cards. Yeah, yeah. They're just like. They're not thoughtful of money. Then there might be a different type.

[Martha]

Of issue, and that's why it's yellow. Yellow means investigate more. It's not a deal breaker. And it's also not, oh, it's no big deal. Keep going forward. It's more investigation needed.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. What are they doing to improve or how are they handling it? Things like that.

[Martha]

Some people are like, I will never date or marry somebody who has children. Whoa, hold on. You can be missing out on a phenomenal person. Once again, it depends what's the circumstances, what's the level of maturity, health in handling and managing that reality. And you can. There are some blended families that have built amazing lives, and then there's some people who marry. Some people with no kids have done the exact opposite. So yellow means more investigation. Yes. Red obviously means run for your life. And these are things that. Here's how I would put it. It's an issue. And that person is showing zero interest in building and growing in that area.

[Lewis Howes]

Zero. So you're like, all right, what am I doing?

[Martha]

So let's talk about emotional regulation. We automatically think about the person with anger, with rage, you know, whatever it may be. And you're just like, oh, that's a warning flag. Can I give you another red warning flag? Somebody with zero emotions, somebody who cannot celebrate, wins.

[Lewis Howes]

That's true.

[Martha]

Somebody who can't celebrate themselves or others. That is going to be very frustrating in a marriage when I'm dealing with someone who cannot emote 100%. And we only see one side of the spectrum as the red flag. We don't. Matter of fact, especially if you come out of a dramatic relationship, you might actually enjoy the fact that. That there's not much emotion going on in this new one. But that will come. And it's not that the emotion or lack of emotion or whatever it may be is a red flag. It is their unwillingness to grow and develop in that area. Hear me. Without your input. Don't fix the person you're dating. It's not your job and you're not capable of it. And if you are dragging a boyfriend or a girlfriend to a level of life that they don't want to live at, what do you think marriage is going to look like?

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, man, you're going to.

[Martha]

It's a life sentence of dragging someone a place that they do not want to go. So you've got to evaluate, does this person have a motivation? You could have $300,000 worth of debt, but if they're like, oh, it used to be 500, I've paid off, too. And I have a vision for my own life financially. All of a sudden, that's somebody I.

[Lewis Howes]

Want to partner with. Yeah, yeah, of course. But, yeah, you can't change your partner. And one of the things. One of the big agreements that I made with Martha when we got into a relationship was I was like, listen, I'm never going to get upset at you. I'm going to be maybe frustrated or maybe we're going to have, like, disagreements, But I'm never going to be angry at you for your way of being or who you are, because I feel like I've gotten to know you. I feel like I've seen your personality. We've had all this time together, and I'm choosing to get into this relationship accepting you for who you are. And because I'm going to accept you, I shouldn't try to change you. I know you have a growth mindset, so you're going to be growing on your own. I know you want coaching and therapy because you're already doing it. So you're in a mindset of, like, how can I reflect and improve and grow? So me trying to change you doesn't work. And I have one condition. Don't try to change me. Accept me as well.

[Martha]

Yes.

[Lewis Howes]

Who I am and I'm gonna grow, and I do coaching and I have mentors, things like that. But as long as we can accept each other, I think it could be a beautiful relationship. That's when things get in trouble. And that's what I dealt with in my past was like, I always felt like I had to change to make someone happy.

[Martha]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And that's exhausting.

[Martha]

You used a perfect phrase, A growth mindset.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Martha]

Because I cannot change anyone.

[Lewis Howes]

No.

[Martha]

But we all have to change. As life changes. If that person does not come with a growth mindset themselves, oh, I'm in trouble. So what I'm looking for, and I think that's a great way to kind of sum up the red flags. There are really no red flag. Deal breaker. Run for your life. For a person who has a growth mindset.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Martha]

Because whatever that flag is, it's only temporary. The red flag is this person has zero interest in becoming the best version of themselves.

[Lewis Howes]

Ron.

[Martha]

Ron.

[Lewis Howes]

This is going to be a controversial question or conversation we're about to talk about.

[Martha]

I'm here for it.

[Lewis Howes]

What is the. The difference between a man's role in a marriage, a woman's role in a marriage and God's role in a marriage?

[Martha]

Okay. Okay. Well, God is easy. That's an easy one. It's God's job to change everybody. Everybody else. Leave that to him. That's not your job. So that was easy. Who the man and the woman's role. So let me start. I scared. Let's do this. Let's start off with this. Let's talk basketball.

[Lewis Howes]

You use the same analogy I use.

[Martha]

Listen.

[Lewis Howes]

You use the same one I use. I love this.

[Martha]

Let's take men, male and female roles out of the equation and let's just say this. Somebody got to play point guard.

[Lewis Howes]

What? We can't both dribble at the same time.

[Martha]

It's only one basketball. Okay.

[Lewis Howes]

Can't both bring it up with the court at the same time.

[Martha]

Somebody's got to be center. Somebody got to get that rebound. Somebody got to start the fast break like we. There is no. Let's say it this way. There is no organization that does not have clearly defined roles.

[Lewis Howes]

No successful organization. No successful organization might be some that.

[Martha]

Literally, but that's why they're not successful.

[Lewis Howes]

Exactly.

[Martha]

I'm a pastor, obviously. I believe the word of God is the way to live. A lot of people don't realize this. The marriage and family was the first organization ever created in scripture. Before there was business, before there was church, before there was government, there was family. So when you look at the family as an organization, there are roles.

[Lewis Howes]

And what are the best use of the roles for men and women in marriage?

[Martha]

All right, you go pin me in the corner. This is my belief that you're free to disagree with me. I think the band has a few roles. I think one of the primary roles is to protect. I think it is the man's role for his spouse, for his children, to protect physically and to protect emotionally. Which is very interesting in this generation because some of the greatest threats to our family won't come at the front door, is going to come through the Internet. And I've got to know what's on my kids phones and what's on their tablets and I've got all that other kind of stuff. So I think protection is major. I think it is the man's role to be the provider of the household. And this is where I get in trouble. Are you saying a woman can't make more than a man? And what if she makes more than a man? And do you believe in stay at Home dads. This is where I will get canceled. I do not believe in stay at home dads. And I'll tell you why real quick. If you're going to cancel me, let me say this first, because I don't think work is about money.

[Lewis Howes]

What's work about?

[Martha]

I think work is about God's place you on this earth to fix a problem that nobody else can fix but you. And it has nothing to do with income. And I think as a man in particular, if you haven't figured out what the problem on this earth for you to solve is, there will always be a discontent on the inside and it has nothing to do with income.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, I call it. I call that purpose. Yeah, what's the purpose you're meant to do to solve that problem, to help fix this thing or, sir, are you.

[Martha]

Saying that raising kids is not a man's purpose? Let me get in trouble. I don't think it's a woman's purpose because them kids are going to be there for 18 years. That woman's going to live for 60, 70, 80 years. I think even women need to have a purpose outside of, I just want to raise kids and then sit around for my grandkids like, no, there's a greater impact, not there's anything wrong with that. And once again, fulfilling your purpose doesn't have to come with an income. So I'm not saying everybody has to be out here working in corporate America or whatever else it may be. I love how you're looking at me like this guy's going to back himself into a corner.

[Lewis Howes]

Nah, I'm just.

[Martha]

But so when it comes to provision, here's what I would say. For a man, you've got to make enough money for your family to have a roof over their head and food on the table. If your wife makes a lot more than you, great. It just means the quality of life, the level of living, the experience that you're going to have are going to be greater. But if she does not want to work, we will have a house to live in. We will have food on the table, we'll have clothes on our back. And everything after that is icing on the cake.

[Lewis Howes]

What if she's like, oh, my man's not able to provide in the same way that all my girlfriend's men provide. And so that we live in a way that is not as enjoyable as them, I can't go and do certain things with my friends because we don't have the means, because my man isn't providing for me. So I'm gonna have to step up and go make my own money because he can't provide.

[Martha]

Well, that's real. And you may not like me for this, but that's why I said before, you date him, have your vision. And when you're interested and you're looking to spend, does this person fit into my vision? And here's what's difficult. It's not fair, 10 years into your marriage to switch the vision. If you were content with this level of living before you met those people, it's not fair to now have a resentment towards someone that they're not fulfilling a promise that they never made.

[Lewis Howes]

But that's tricky, though. 10, 20 years, you might have a new vision. You might have a new vision for life. You might have different goals, different seasons.

[Martha]

We've been walking through it. And if you married a growth mindset.

[Lewis Howes]

Person, they'll be growing and earning more.

[Martha]

They will deal with you. Of course, the issue is I got somebody who doesn't have that growth mindset.

[Lewis Howes]

I know that's the challenge, but. Okay, Stephen, at 22, you're not making. You're not making squat. You know, you're making 10, 12 bucks an hour. You're not providing. You can't even afford rent. You're still at home.

[Martha]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

How are you going to marry someone who can't provide when you're that young, getting married?

[Martha]

So we do this, you know, singles night, and I mean, this last was 3,000 singles. And it was, you know, Q and A and all that. And one of the number one question from women, especially women in their 30s, was, you know, I've got, you know, three master's degrees, six figure income.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Martha]

I've got my 401k, I've got my home. Literally. I will not settle for a man who cannot match me financially. And I, I said, you know, my wife, take this. But I said, well, my wife made more money than me. When we got married, I was a pastor of a church of 50 people.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Making nothing.

[Martha]

Nothing. She was a nurse. I mean, first of all, nurses make good money. And then she could take all the overtime she wanted. So if her decision was strictly financial, I wouldn't had a shot. But. And so they asked her, well, why did you marry him? Because he was broke and I was. Here's the funny thing. My wife had no debt. I brought all the debt. Student loans, car debt. It was amazing.

[Lewis Howes]

That's why you justify that $100,000.

[Martha]

Don't give up. I got caught. But here's what she said. She said it was a simple decision because I married a man with a vision. And she said, a man with money and no vision is not guaranteed to have money for long. But a man with no money, a vision and the track record that he has the work ethic to accomplish that vision. She said, I followed him because he had the proof that he was going to work and he had a vision of where he was going.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. You weren't just sleeping on your parents couch trying to, trying to figure out life, just being a charmer. You were working, you were devoted, you were committed, you had a vision for your life, you were developing your skills. And so someone can sense and feel that.

[Martha]

You can't evaluate somebody based on their net worth.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Martha]

Because that is a temporary measurement. You've got to evaluate them based on their vision, based on their work ethic, and based on the proof that they accomplish what they say they're going to accomplish.

[Lewis Howes]

It's kind of like what beauty and looks are for men and women. Money is to women and men. It's like you could see the person with a lot of money and can be very seductive and attractive. Oh, this person can provide for me. But do they have good character, good values? Do they have good relationships? Or are they just going to, you know, be abusive in some way because they feel like they have money or power?

[Martha]

So this conversation started with what's a man's role? What's a women? What's a woman's role? And you know, everything's fluid nowadays and everybody could do whatever, but nah, because women do have a need for security. Will say, oh, she just wants him for his money. She's a gold digger. No, hold on. Maybe it is. There is an internal need in women of I need to feel secure. And part of security is is there going to be a roof over my head and food on the table? What women have done is, well, I don't want to trust him for the security because he may walk out the door and now I'm high and dry, so I will go out and get it myself. But it's not just all about, I just want money and I want to live a great life with my friends. It is a God instilled need in women to feel security. And it is the man's job to provide that security.

[Lewis Howes]

I will say, what about the women watching or listening that say, I don't want to put my security in a man until he can prove he's trustworthy. So I'm just going to always have this, create the security for myself and be in control of my own life.

[Martha]

I will say yes in the thought, wrong in the reaction. I do not want to put all of my thought, hopes and trust in a man providing security. Great. While I'm dating, while I'm giving him time to prove to me who he is. Yeah, that's the time. Don't trust him. Make him prove himself.

[Lewis Howes]

But then when you're getting committed or in a marriage, you just surrender all trust.

[Martha]

And here's why I say that you're going to trust them with your kids, but not your financial future. And here's what it really comes down to. It begins to show us where money falls in our life. Because we will give somebody our body, we'll give them our kids, but we will not trust them with our money. What's more important, we would all say my physical health, my children mean so much more to me than my money. But if we look at the number one thing we talk about and we look at the hierarchy that we put our trust in, money is usually the last area.

[Lewis Howes]

Why is that?

[Martha]

Because money, oh, plug for the book. Is so connected to our hearts and our worldview. And a lot of us have not done the work of unpacking that connection between money and our heart. So it really is not I don't trust this person with my money. It's I don't trust him with my heart.

[Lewis Howes]

So why get married to the person if you don't trust him with your heart?

[Martha]

Because none of us think that deeply. It's just that simple. I thought I trusted them with my heart, but when you realize I actually haven't handed my whole life to them, it's the fact that I don't trust them with my heart. And healthy marriage trust is built. Nobody's been married for 24 hours.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Martha]

And they 100% trust the person that they're. It takes time. That's the beauty.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

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[Lewis Howes]

And I feel great.

[Stephen Chandler]

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[Lewis Howes]

Relationship so the man's role, I'm hearing you say, is protect and provide. Is there any other role that the man should have in marriage?

[Martha]

The man is also the visionary of the household. And that's, you know, once again, very sensitive. But it is a man's job to say, here is where I believe our marriage, our family, our finances, our children, our children's education. This is where it can go or this is where it should go. And you're having fun with getting in trouble. You go get comments. But you will find a lot of women that have to drive vision and conversations in their relationships and in their marriage. They will say, I do it because I have to, because he won't, because he's not leading, not because I want to. And a lot of women that step out of relationships, they'll say, because I had to lead him and I did it. You know, it's so funny. There's these natural things inside of us that we respond to. But then when somebody wants to write it on a piece of paper and say, is this A man's. We pushed back against them. A lot of women, some may, I want to call the shots and I want to lead and everything, all that. But a lot of them are like, I'm doing it because I have to, not because I want to.

[Lewis Howes]

Let me push back on this then.

[Martha]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

For the men that say, I've tried to lead but she just keeps taking over control. She won't listen, she keeps pushing back on me. She won't either. Submit, surrender, you know, relax, in my leadership, whatever you want to call the word. And so I've just stopped because it's exhausting, because I'm leading. But then she's pushing back constantly and pushing against my vision. So I just let her do what she wants to do and be in control.

[Martha]

The Bible says wives are to submit to their husband, not be submissive. There is a difference. And some women are like, I am pushing back and asking all these questions because I want to fully understand. And when I fully understand, I'm going to give my all to it.

[Stephen Chandler]

Interesting.

[Martha]

So I'm going to be honest. Sometimes our insecurity doesn't like to be questioned.

[Lewis Howes]

I can. That's true.

[Martha]

Come on.

[Lewis Howes]

I don't like that. You know, when I'm like, this is my vision and when you question me, it doesn't feel good.

[Martha]

Let's switch this to the business realm. If you are a CEO, entrepreneur, business leader, and you've got some thoroughbreds around you, they're going to question your vision.

[Lewis Howes]

And you want them to poke holes.

[Martha]

In the plan because they're watching your back.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Martha]

But if you're insecure, you're going to see it as rebellion, as attack, as they're trying to divide the company or whatever. And you will find an insecure leader will not have great leaders around them.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting.

[Martha]

Because they won't. Give them space to think for themselves. Bring it back into your marriage. Sometimes we all have ego. Anybody who says they don't have ego, they're lying. So I felt this of telling my wife, hey babe, we're going here. And she's like, well, what about this? Don't question me. You know, it's just like. And then I had to realize, dude, she's questioning you because it was a half baked idea.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Martha]

And you had holes that you didn't even see. And I can't see every question as threatening, you know, my masculinity or whatever it may be. So a, some of those, you know, that woman, you know, she won't follow me. No, she's just asking so she can.

[Lewis Howes]

Be fully bought in.

[Martha]

And then some women, something in their past has taught them, I can't trust anybody else but myself. And they're responding through fear instead of through what your track record has proven that you can be trusted with.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Martha]

So that's why dating the right person.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Martha]

And making the right decision before you say I do and not sleeping with them so that your judgment is not off. It's so major. Because once you've said I do doesn't mean you can't undo it. But the amount of collateral damage, that's a lot. It's a lot.

[Lewis Howes]

It's a lot.

[Martha]

It's a lot.

[Lewis Howes]

So pick the right person. Pick the right person for you.

[Martha]

The Bible says he who finds a good wife finds favor from the Lord. A lot of people think it says he who finds a wife finds favor. No, no. There's thousands of wives out here. Not a lot of good ones and.

[Lewis Howes]

Not a lot of good ones for you.

[Martha]

For you.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Martha]

So it takes a lot of time and intentionality to find who you want to trust with your future. And it's the same thing, you know, especially when it comes to the biblical world, there's all this pushback, you know, why do I got to submit to a husband? Women hate that verse.

[Lewis Howes]

Kind of like that word, right?

[Martha]

It is. I'm not going to say easy because nothing in life is easy. But it's not as difficult to submit to a husband that you love where he's going and you like the vision and you want to be a part of that vision. And wives realize you get to pick what vision you submit to. So pick. Well, just because he's ripped and got muscles and he's six feet tall and got a six figure income or whatever the sixes you're looking for are, does not mean that that's the only thing to pick from. And this thing called life, we live based on the decisions that they make 100% and they're major decisions.

[Lewis Howes]

So what is the role of a woman in a marriage then?

[Martha]

So when you think about marriage, I would divide it out into different spaces. There's family, there's finances, there are extended in laws, there's career, all that other good stuff. And I think one role of a woman is to be the nurturer in the home. Not the only one. Us men, we have to be nurturing. And it does not mean that women have to stay home with the kids or they shouldn't. That is every family specific decision. And anybody says everybody should do that is just naive. However, God has given women a sensitivity, a connection to their emotions. That's a lot more challenging for men. That is easier for them to create that nurturing type of environment, whether you have no kids or whatever it may be. And as a woman creates that, it's a lot easier for a man to step into. That makes sense 100%. So that's 1, 2. I heard a pastor say, when you think of the word submission, just think of the broken out support the mission. So it is the wife's job to support the mission, which in one season of the marriage may mean I'm out here working, making more money than my husband because that supports the mission of our family for this season. It may mean the exact opposite. It may mean that I step away from my career and I'm home with the children for a season because it supports the mission. Not that he has, but that we've set for our family. So you can't say women should stay home with the kids or women should be out here working or whatever it may be. It's what is the mission that we've mutually agreed upon is the mission for our family and how do I support that in this season? I love that I say Liz is kind of using biblical term, but the word prophecy or prophetic. I think one of a woman's role in a marriage is to be the prophetic voice, which prophecy, the word really means to encourage, to put courage in. And one of the roles of a woman is to say, we got, we can do this, we can accomplish this. Not we and us guys, sometimes we are so in our head and we are our worst critics. And I mean, it's a minor mistake and in our head it is the biggest thing ever. And when you've got that right woman in your corner that said, no, you're overthinking it. No, the goal can still be accomplished. No, we still, it breathes life into the family and it brings you to goals that you would have given up on if you were by yourself.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. What do you think people struggle with hearing the most about their roles, getting into a marriage, both men and women?

[Martha]

I think one of the things that both men and women struggle with just in marriage in particular is I'm going to lose my identity. I think women struggle with this more, but I'm going to be overshadowed. There are going to be things that I want to accomplish that I'm not going to be able to accomplish because we're, you know, serving my spouse's vision in this season or Whatever. Life is all about giving up something you want for something you want more. What do I want? I want to be on vacation 12 months a year. That's what I want. What do you want more? I want to build a legacy. I want to build greatness. I want to build it impact. So, yes, I'm going to give up Cancun for 12 months out of the year, but what I get in return is greater than what I gave up there. Forget marriage. There is no relationship that you don't have to compromise and give up part of your dream. What makes it worth it, what I get back is greater than anything that I've given up. So, guys or girls, when you get married, you're gonna have to slow down a little bit because when you were single, you made a decision and you acted on it and you had nobody to check in with. And slowing down for drivers is frustrating sometimes because it's just like, I've already thought it through, I've already made, let's go. But slowing down and making that decision with someone who has massive talent and gifting and ability is going to make the results of that decision far greater than they would have been if I was by myself. So, yes, I gave up the speed at which I love to go through life in, but the reward isn't. It's. It's worth it.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Martha]

So that. That fear of I'm gonna lose part of myself and I'm not gonna relieve that fear. You will lose part of yourself in that marriage, but you lost part of yourself when you launched that business.

[Lewis Howes]

That's true.

[Martha]

You lost part of yourself when you had those kids. And that's life you're developing. And it's worth it when you see the goal on the other side.

[Lewis Howes]

I've got a couple final questions for you, but this is a powerful book called Relationship roadmap. Step by step directions to finding your spouse. And again, most people are struggling and challenged with relationships in their life. And this is going to give you the tools on how to set you up with more success. So make sure you guys get a copy or two. Give it to a friend who might be struggling in the relationship as well. Someone who's been married 12, almost 13 years now, but also been around a lot of individuals who've been married for a long time. You have great married mentors, and I'm assuming you've counseled many people in their marriages as well. As I get into my married, newly married season of life, what would be three pieces of advice you'd give me that either you followed when you were getting married or you wish you would have followed as well.

[Martha]

Well, first of all, congrats. Come on. It's a fun journey, and I'm going to kind of turn it heavy for a second, but it's okay. It's going to resonate with a lot of people. My mom ended up passing away in 2013, and I got engaged the first week of February. She passed away the last week of February. So she passed away three weeks after we got married. She was 54. And, you know, when. When. When someone's coming to the end of their life, life comes in perspective, and the things that matter matter, and the things that you thought mattered, you realize at this point. And so the greatest piece of advice I got was from my mom, and she said, stephen, if I had known I was only going to spend 34 years with your dad, some of the things that I was dogmatic about, I now realize they don't matter.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Martha]

So my. In marriage, pick which hills you're going to die on. And I'll even say this. Three or less. Don't have a lot of them. Like, I will not compromise on this. And then other things, we can talk, we can disagree, but don't make it, you know, World War 3. You know, some of the dumb stuff we get in a relationship. You know, my husband bought a red car, and I hate red cars. Why do you know? But at the end of the day, nobody cares. You know, you drive the car for five years, you get a blue one, next, it doesn't matter. But, you know, in that moment, it seems like the biggest deal in the world, or I don't like the house. Get me in trouble. My wife did not like the house that we bought after we got married. And I'm a little bit of a bulldozer. So, you know, I asked her, and I got her permission, but looking back, I probably kind of, you know, pushed her into something that. And we ended up living there for two and a half years. We thought it was gonna be our forever home.

[Lewis Howes]

Nah. And you're out.

[Martha]

Work, change. And we ended up. And she said later, man, that taught me something, that even when I disagreed with your decision, it wasn't a lifetime decision. It wasn't worth the emotional. So you. The less wars you have in a marriage, the better.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Martha]

And when you look back, you're gonna find out that wasn't worth it. Wasn't worth it.

[Lewis Howes]

It wasn't worth fighting or arguing about. Yeah. Okay, so that's your first piece of advice.

[Martha]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

You got two more?

[Martha]

I got two more. Make great memories. Make great memories. One mentor told me accomplished great things in life. The one thing I regret is I did not enjoy the journey. And he said, now that I'm coming to the end of it, I wish I had stopped to celebrate more along the way.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Martha]

So I think that that would be number two. And then I think the third one is what a lot of people don't think about. Marriage, family, whatever. Make it more than just about y'all. You used the word purpose. I think there are individual purposes, but there's also a purpose to a union into a marriage. And I believe God brings people together. But why did he do? Wasn't just for our joy. It wasn't just for our legacy. So what is the impact we can have as a couple? What is the blessing we can have to people? Some of the greatest joy you're going to get in life is from blessing people who cannot bless you back. And I think in a marriage, if you would just take a time to say, hey, who can we have a impact on that we want nothing in return from them. At the end of your life, some of your greatest joy is going to be the people that we impacted. And we'll find out just the joy it brought us. We received far more than we ever gave.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm getting the chills the whole time you're talking about this, because that's another thing now that I'm thinking about it, where I realized that Martha was the one. Early in the relationship, just service is a big part of my life. Being of service, however that might look, it might be donating to a cause I really care about, or just impacting the person that come up to me on the street that says hello and being of service in that moment in a small way or a big way. But thinking about service as part of my mission to life. And when I realized that she wanted to make a big difference as well in the world and that she cared about, how could we as a couple also do something to serve people that either give us something in return or don't? Just how can we give and make a difference? And having a partner on my team that wants that same mission, that's when I realized, oh, I'm not going to be the only one thinking about service in a relationship, because that's tiring as well. It's just you. But two people coming together, finding a purpose to serve either your friends, your family or community, or whatever you can, is a beautiful thing.

[Martha]

Let me brag on my Wife Zai for a second when I tell you this woman has expanded my universe. It will happen to everyone. I don't think God puts the total skill set in when it so all of us, whether it's people skills, whether it's dry, all of us are deficient in some area. And when you marry someone who their strengths are your deficiency. I'm an introvert. I love one on one relationships. Crowds freak me out.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm just like being on stage every.

[Martha]

Week, which is wild because you wouldn't think that at all. But I tell the church, this stage is my little box. This is my world. My wife is. I mean crowds, life of the pond.

[Lewis Howes]

People, let's hang out, hug. Yeah, yeah.

[Martha]

And she has introduced me to spaces and worlds that Steven by himself would have never ventured into. Now vice versa because I pastor and all that kind of stuff. I see crowds, I know how to move crowds. My wife sees individuals. So I'm thinking about the crowd and my wife's like, hey, don't forget about this person. Hey, go text this person. I'll call this person or whatever. And now I'm able to care for people on a level that is outside of my skill set or temperament because of the help mate biblical word that God has given me and vice versa. I've been able to put my wife in front of crowds when she sees individuals. It multiplies your effectiveness.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow, man, that's beautiful. Relationship roadmap is what we're talking about today. Couple final questions for you, but people can follow you. Where's the best place to follow you on social media to see your content and get the book?

[Martha]

Stephen R. Chandler, everything.

[Lewis Howes]

Steven R. Chandler, Everything IG and all that.

[Martha]

And it's with a ph and it's still Steven.

[Lewis Howes]

Steven with a ph. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end. It's called the three truths. Imagine a hypothetical scenario. You live as long as you want, but it's your last day on earth. So you're as old as you want to be, but you got to turn the lights off.

[Martha]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Go to the next place and you've accomplished everything you want in this journey. Your roadmap is complete. You got to the destination, faithful servant, and you're reflecting back on all the memories that you made for whatever reason. In this hypothetical scenario, you can't leave anything behind that you've created. This conversation, this book. Everything you've shared before is gone. But you get to leave behind three lessons that you've learned. Three truths. What would those three truths be for.

[Martha]

You, man, that got emotional. That's major. And it was really easy. The first one is, I was placed on this earth by God on purpose, for a purpose. And I live my life to fulfill that purpose. I'm not a mistake. It wasn't happen chance. It was intentional by my Creator. My second thought is this, that the people who know me the best respect me the most. I think it is easy for crowds to revere you because they don't really know you. It is the people who know you the most that I want to respect me the best. And then I think the final thing is I did not let pain or inconvenience keep me from maximizing my greatness. Everybody in life has adversity that you've got to push through. And every time you push through, it's always worth it. But it is so tempting not to push through.

[Lewis Howes]

That's beautiful. Beautiful truths, man. I want to acknowledge you, Stephen, for this is the first time we've met, but I've heard about you from mutual friends. I've seen your content. I want to acknowledge you for your authenticity because I think a lot of people struggle talking about some of these things fully, authentically owning what they believe because they're afraid of, you know, like you said, getting in trouble. But you know, it's beautiful to see that you've been living your life on purpose to values you believe in that have been serving you and communities and multiplying the fruit of that value within your relationships, your marriage, your family, your communities, because you live by them. And they may not be for everyone, but they're for you. And I acknowledge you for that at all authenticity and for sharing your truth here, man. I appreciate it.

[Martha]

I'm grateful for you. The work you're doing is amazing.

[Lewis Howes]

Thanks, brother. Final question. What's your definition of greatness?

[Martha]

Who? That's when I had to work out. Greatness is maximizing the potential and resources that you have. So I've got to say this, it is not competition with somebody else because we all have different resources, we have different opportunities. You are in a race against yourself and nobody else.

[Lewis Howes]

Stephen, my man. Thanks for being here, brother. Grateful, powerful man.

[Stephen Chandler]

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me, me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

[Martha]

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[Lewis Howes]

Angel Soft, Soft and strong.

[Martha]

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