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The School of Greatness
Simon Sinek: The Dangerous Myth of Online Vulnerability & Rethinking Capitalism
01:31:21
What if the biggest threat to your relationships, your career, and your sense of self-worth has nothing to do with AI, pandemics, or politics but with how you measure a good day? Simon Sinek breaks down why the metrics you are using to judge your life are steering you in the wrong direction and what to replace them with.
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- [00:01]
Sponsor/Announcer
When you pay with the Active cash Visa credit card from Wells Fargo, you score unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases that elevate your fandom. That's 2% cash rewards on streaming to cheer from home, 2% cash rewards on coffee for late night events, and 2% cash rewards on face paint to show your spirit even from the couch. Terms apply. Visit Wells Fargo.com ActiveCash Visa Worldwide Partner of the Olympic Winter Games Milano Cortina 2026 Working toward your goals is important, and so is savoring every step along the way. That's why Buick encourages you to live in this moment. To remember that now is exceptional. Designed with sleek style and purposeful technology, every detail of a Buick vehicle helps you show up at your best today and every day. Visit Buick.com to discover luxury that enriches the life you're leading right now. Buick Exceptional by design Hiring isn't just filling seats with Indeed sponsored jobs. They'll help you match with candidates who can actually move your business forward. Target candidates by skills, certifications, or location. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Let's Less stress, less time, more results. Now with Indeed Sponsored Jobs and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help you get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the Right Way with Indeed.
- [01:46]
Lewis Howes
One of the things I love about you is how intelligent you are and also vulnerable you are. I think that's a rare combination because usually people lean one way or the other, but you're really great at mixing both of them.
- [01:59]
Simon Sinek
Oh, thank you.
- [02:00]
Lewis Howes
And I wanted to ask you a question that I think has been an interesting conversation specifically in the last three to six months. That includes relationships, work, AI and leadership.
- [02:15]
Simon Sinek
Okay.
- [02:15]
Lewis Howes
There's been a lot of, in my opinion, distractions over the last few years. Of all the new shiny things that come out that are available for us at work, at home, and in relationships. And I'm curious, with everything that you've seen in the last few years, all the different distractions that have come out in life, where do you see intimacy and relationships personally and also professionally in the workplace as AI starts to evolve in everywhere?
- [02:51]
Simon Sinek
So let's just take one step back. The concept of AI is not new. It's an algorithm. Right. And our lives since the early days of the Internet have been governed by algorithms.
- [03:11]
Lewis Howes
Yes.
- [03:12]
Simon Sinek
Right. What's an algorithm. Let's start there. Yeah, right. We talk about algorithms every day. It's in our vernacular. But what is it? An algorithm is very simply a set of instructions, mathematical or computer code. It's a set of instructions. That's all it is. Right? So a recipe is an algorithm. Two eggs, cup of milk, some flour. What you get is that. And so the algorithm, a set of instructions is. Lewis went on Amazon and bought this. Show him that. That's all it is. It's a list of instructions to solve a problem or to generate some sort of result. And so there's been artificial intelligence around us for a long time. You know, if you go back to the early days of, you know, Ask Jeeves, which was pre Google, right. Didn't work very well. Right. And you had to write in full sentences. And so Google was invented to different algorithm that worked a different way that you could put in less information and you could get the thing that you're more likely to be looking for. Right. And the goal was always that, that you'd find what you're looking for in the first page. Remember back in the early days, you'd sometimes have to scroll a few pages, right? So they're constantly improving these lists of instructions and tell the computer what to do with a certain input. I think the thing that's new is the generative AI, right, where the machine can sort of a. It sounds like Star Trek, you know, it's like it speaks a normal language that you don't have to. You don't have to type in Google. You know, Google's a language, you know, you type in the keywords you want. You don't have to speak in complete sentences. But now you talk to another human being, and it tells you what you want, but it's still based on existing information. The thing that scares me about AI is the thing that I think scares everybody about generative AI and the speed at which this algorithm could work and the speed at which it can invent things.
- [05:13]
Lewis Howes
But is that something to be scared about or more excited about?
- [05:16]
Simon Sinek
Both. The answer is both. And I think anybody who comes on one side or the other of the equation is missing the point. You know, there's a cost for everything. And for all the benefits of anything in our lives, there's always a cost. You want to make a lot of money, if that's your drive, you know, you want to get rich and become a millionaire, okay, There's a cost for the money you make. You're going to sacrifice relationships, you're going to sacrifice sleep, you're going to sacrifice your health. Who knows what it is, Right. But you're going to pay for that in some way, shape or form. It's a balanced equation, right. So the more fantastic the benefits of any technology, the. The balanced equation has to be considered interesting. Is it worth all the benefits if it's going to cost this much? Right. And we're looking at climate change now and industrialization, like all the benefits. Industrialization, was it worth the cost? I think some of us would have preferred to maybe scale back some of that and not deal with what we're dealing with now. Right. So I think we have to do a cost analysis which is, I want this, but at what cost are we. I want this, but at the cost of undermining a democracy. That seems like a steep cost for something to write a book. For me, you know, I'm not sure, at least as it exists now, it's useless for original thoughts. So people ask me all the time, are you scared of it? I'm like, absolutely not. Not scared of it at all. Because if you ask AI to write a book in the style of Simon Sinek on any subject, it can only draw from what I've already written. But it can't give a new thought,
- [06:43]
Lewis Howes
doesn't bring new perspectives.
- [06:45]
Simon Sinek
There's no new ideas. Right. It will do some things that I think are really interesting. It'll change the balance of jobs. So, for example, if you work in public relations, or if you're even a scriptwriter, whatever it is, there is fear of AI of course, again, it can't do new ideas, but a lot of ideas are not new.
- [07:11]
Lewis Howes
Feel like an artist, repackage it.
- [07:13]
Simon Sinek
But let's take a PR company, for example. It takes a lot of time to write that first draft, and you need a good writer to write a first draft. What'll happen with AI is AI can write the first draft instantaneously. So in my world, in writing, you know this from writing a book, the writer is the hero. The. The editors like the hired help that'll switch, which not for new ideas, but for ideas that don't require novelty.
- [07:43]
Lewis Howes
Sure.
- [07:43]
Simon Sinek
Write a press release that you know,
- [07:46]
Lewis Howes
has four bullet points about the benefits.
- [07:49]
Simon Sinek
The editors will become the heroes because the AI can write first.
- [07:53]
Lewis Howes
Interesting.
- [07:53]
Simon Sinek
So I think that balance will change. But to go back to your original question, you know, to go back to your original question, one of the conversations that's not happening about any of this, we're not talking at all about social ripples, and there are always social Ripples, right? And there's a blindness. People are blind when it comes to how we talk about new things. And when I talk about social ripples, what I mean is fear. Fear is an emotion. It is sometimes irrational, not always sometimes irrational. And it can produce behaviors that can be antisocial. If you're afraid enough, you can hurt someone, right? You can hurt them with your words, you can hurt them with your actions based on fear. We've all said things in relationships out of fear. So let's take an analogy. A bunch of do gooders come into a town in Ohio, coal town, and say, we're getting rid of this coal mine. It's bad for the environment, we're going to replace it with solar and wind and it's the right thing to do. They're always surprised when the town of coal miners is angrily against it. Now the reality is they're not anti winds, nor are they anti solar. All I know is I'm a coal miner. My father was a coal miner, my father's father was a coal miner. All I know is how to do coal mining. And all I know is this mine down the street produces income for me to take care of my family. And you're coming in here and say, we're going to take your income away, we're not getting rid of coal, taking rid of your livelihood. And you have no discernible skill set. What you get is fear. And when somebody doesn't feel seen or heard and they feel afraid that you're coming in to take something away from them, they're going to put up a wall and say, you cannot do that. Right? That's the same thing going on here, which is all the discussion is all the job that's going to take away, all the things it's going to destroy. And so what it's producing is fear. And when you have fear, you have emotional reactions that have nothing to do with computers, nothing to do with algorithms, nothing to do with generative AI. What it has to do with, at the minimum is how I vote. But worse, it can get people so afraid that they start lashing out in antisocial ways, sometimes as individuals and sometimes as groups. And we are not talking about the social ripples. We're also living in a world where the haves and the have nots, the richest people and your frontline worker. The disparity is so great, the average. So if you go back, I think 50 years or so, 40 years or so on average, a CEO made about 35 times what the lowest paid worker and now you're talking 400, 500, 600, 700 times, 800 times lowest paid workers. The disparity is so great. 1% of the population owns 80% of the stock. I mean, it's so great. And when you have huge gaps between the wealthy and those who work to make the wealthy wealthy, that is a recipe for rebellion. So we already are living in a tinderbox right now where this is, what is, this is normal, right? And it's, it's, and we've seen the rise of this populist message. I don't care. You're Republican and Democrat. We heard it from Trump, we heard it from Bernie Sanders. Right? They're pointing out the disparity. And, and the liberals loved Bernie and the conservatives loved Trump.
- [11:30]
Sponsor/Announcer
Right?
- [11:30]
Simon Sinek
Because they're saying, look what's happening. And unfortunately in both cases are leveraging fear for a vote. But we're not talking about the fear that the discussion of AI is producing and the reactions that it can have. That has nothing to do with a computer, really. We're not talking about that.
- [11:51]
Lewis Howes
What are the fear conversations that you're hearing from people and what are the emotions that are coming out of it at the early stages? And where do you think that's going to head over the next few years?
- [12:06]
Simon Sinek
Nobody's listening. Again, it goes back to that coal miner example. Well intentioned. People can come in and say, this is something that's important for the environment, but we understand this is highly disruptive to your life. We're not going to take anything away, but I want to hear how you feel.
- [12:26]
Lewis Howes
They're not, they're not asking those questions.
- [12:27]
Simon Sinek
They're not asking questions. They're not trying to understand the fear. They're not making people feel seen or heard or understood. They're just coming in, you know, they're barreling in. And by the way, this is both sides of the political aisle. Both sides of the political aisle are barreling in with their, their, their desires without listening to the people who it's going to affect. Right? And then they're surprised that people are angry and put up a roadblock. And so to answer your question, it's not happening. Those conversations aren't happening. There is a total lack of listening in our nation. There's a total lack of empathy in our nation. We're now living in a world of I'm right and you're wrong, rather than we have a problem and we should be you and me against the problem rather than me against you, which is
- [13:14]
Lewis Howes
like a healthy conscious Intimate relationship. But they teach you in therapy.
- [13:17]
Simon Sinek
Correct. And you'll find a lot of overlaps in the stuff that we're going to talk about. If you want to talk mass population.
- [13:22]
Lewis Howes
Yes.
- [13:22]
Simon Sinek
And intimate relationships. Interesting. It's human beings talking to human beings.
- [13:27]
Lewis Howes
Do you think that we will ever, as a nation, at least in this country, be able to say, hey, how do we come together and focus on the problem? Not you're right and you're wrong, or do you think it's politics create so much of a division that people just. There'll be too much fear for people to actually listen to both sides. I'm not even talking about politics, but just about AI or relationships or business or wealth or whatever it might be. Do you think we'll ever be able to do that?
- [13:52]
Simon Sinek
You know, when people come together and put all their political differences aside.
- [13:56]
Sponsor/Announcer
War.
- [13:57]
Simon Sinek
Correct. That's kind of scary, though, when. When we are challenged by an external existential threat. Oh, man. We come together. Right. We saw what happened after September 11th. Osama bin Laden believed that by flying planes into the World Trade center and the Pentagon that it would fracture America. It did the absolute opposite. Because there's one thing greater than my fear of you is the fear of that. And we saw it during the first rendition of the Cold War, the fear of the Soviet Union and nuclear war. The Soviet Union, even though there was politics and there was territoriality in the armed forces and all of the nonsense that still exists today, at the end of the day, we could all agree on one thing that's worse so we can put our differences aside, because that's worse. And so the mistake that America made when the Berlin Wall came down and the Soviet Union collapsed is we falsely believed that we had won the war. There's no such thing as winning global politics. It's like the Roman Empire doesn't exist, but the physical land still exists, and the people who were Romans are now Italians. It's like nobody went away. They just changed forms. It's like the law of conservation of matter, law of conservation of energy. And there's a law of conservation of people. Right? Right. People don't just disappear because the empire is gone. The empire is a political construction, and so we didn't win anything. The Soviet Union collapsed, but the people are still there and the culture is still there and the land is still there. And America acted like victors. And what always happens in an infinite game, what always happens in a game that has no end, is new players will emerge. It's like when one company goes Bankrupt, it doesn't mean the game of business is over, which means new companies will fill the space while new nations fill the space. And so the threats that challenged America showed up in the form of North Korea, in the form of global terrorism, Al Qaeda and ISIS and all other spinoffs. And I think that global competition is actually a very good thing. It's scary, it creates tension. But the irony is we as capitalists, because America believes in capitalism and, and democracy, we as capitalists believe that competition is ultimately good for the consumer and we have laws against monopolies. Well, America for 30 years was acting like a monopoly, like the cable company. Everybody hated you and you had no choice. And you could impose your will on the consumer willy nilly in which America imposed its will on the world willy nilly with no reaction. And so I actually think the rise of a balance of power, a competition, is probably the best thing that can happen to America. It doesn't have to be war, it doesn't have to be war, but it does have to be. Somebody who offers a legitimate challenge to the power structure.
- [17:07]
Lewis Howes
Why do you think in our personal lives it takes a near death experience to us or someone around us, a big health scare, a divorce, a breakup or a massive breakdown in career or something for us to see a new path and start improving who we are becoming better, transforming, overcoming this breakdown. And why does it sound like it takes war or conflict or something extremely scary out there for us to come together and start to transform as well as people?
- [17:44]
Simon Sinek
You know, we're a myopic bunch. You know, human beings are very dopamine driven. You know, find the food, look for shelter, you know, then do it again. And long term planning is not really our strength as a species because long term planning exists in our imaginations. I better save money for the day that I retire 60 years from now. You know, it's just like, well, or I could just buy now because it feels better, right? We just, we're bad at it. We're bad as governments at it, we're bad as individuals at it. We're just bad at it. We're not engineered for it. And so I think, I think that's a part of it. And what near death experiences do or competitive threats do is they're tangible reminders of what could be. Because again, we're tangibly driven animals, right? We love tangibility metrics, things we can see. You hear a bump in the night, you have to go look for it. And so it makes it real. So even though global threats have existed since the fall of the Soviet Union. Now that you can see one, now you can give it a name and a flag in a language. It becomes a real thing. And I think the same goes for near death experiences. It's like my mortality, which was something that I didn't think about, is now real. Which is why I ask old people for advice. They give the best advice because they don't give a what you think about them, because they're close, because they've accepted their own mortality.
- [19:25]
Lewis Howes
The end is near.
- [19:26]
Simon Sinek
The end is near. And so I'm not doing anything to please you anymore.
- [19:29]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, I'm not trying to impress you.
- [19:30]
Simon Sinek
You know, Talk to a 20 year old and talk to a 70 year old and see what kind of advice you get. It's not just experience and wisdom, of course, that factors in as well. You know, one is much more concerned about what you think about than the other one really doesn't care. So I think, I think that's what these, these shocks do. And I think one of the things that storytelling does, one of the things that you do and I do and others do is by telling the stories of other people's near death experiences or other people's losses, hopefully inspires people to take on themselves without having to go through the challenge themselves. That's the ideal. But you know, I remember after September 11th, I was in New York on September 11th and lived through it.
- [20:19]
Lewis Howes
You were there?
- [20:19]
Simon Sinek
Yeah. I watched the buildings fall.
- [20:21]
Sponsor/Announcer
Really?
- [20:22]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, yeah. Where? What part of.
- [20:24]
Simon Sinek
I was downtown. I was in SoHo really. So just about. I was, I actually did the calculations. I figured out I was exactly one mile.
- [20:30]
Lewis Howes
You could see the buildings from my office.
- [20:32]
Simon Sinek
Yeah, I watched, I was, I was walking. I took the subway and the subway stopped at 14th street and I still had to get to SoHo. So I walked down 7th Avenue, which the end of 7th Avenue was the World Trade Center.
- [20:43]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [20:43]
Simon Sinek
And so I was walking down, watching them burning.
- [20:45]
Lewis Howes
Holy cow.
- [20:46]
Simon Sinek
And then got to work. And the view from my office was the World Trade Center.
- [20:51]
Lewis Howes
No way.
- [20:52]
Simon Sinek
And yeah, I remember, I remember the very strange. Yeah, that's in, that's, that's embossed in my brain. I'm not going to forget that image of it.
- [21:00]
Lewis Howes
What was that? I mean, this is a little sidetrack here, but what was that, that day like? I mean, watching it at your office, what was the scene like? Were people paying attention? Was ever all eyes on the building?
- [21:12]
Simon Sinek
Of course, of course, of course. Wow. We were, you know, at this point, we. When I woke up in the morning, because the first plane hit shortly after 8am and I hadn't left the house yet.
- [21:24]
Lewis Howes
Had you already heard about it?
- [21:25]
Simon Sinek
Well, it was on the news. A friend of mine called me, it says, turn on the news. So I turn on the news and there was a hole in the World Trade center and it was burning. But the scale of those buildings is so huge that we couldn't tell that it was an airliner. We thought it was a Cessna. So you saw a hole in the building. Buildings were so big, you literally just thought it was an. And it was a beautiful day, so it's not like this was a storm. It was a perfect day. So we just thought it was an idiot. And a Cessna. And I went to work and people started to talk about it on the bus. I was taking the crosstown bus. Like, you know, did you see what happened? And by the time I got off the subway on 14th street, cause, you know, media disappears under the ground. Now there were people sitting on the sides of the street listening to radios in their cars. And at this point now we started to realize this was terrorism. So we started to recognize what it was pretty quickly, but we didn't know what the implications were. And we also didn't expect the buildings to fall down. It was a weird flaw in how the buildings were made that made them. Because most buildings had internal load bearing structures. And what made the World Trade center unique was all the load bearing structures are on the outside. And so the floor is basically floated in the middle. So except for the escal, except for the elevators, you could stand on one side of the World Trade center inside and look clear over to the side of the building. You know, it was amazing building. And so they collapsed on top of each other when it came down, which nobody knew would happen. And so I was in constant contact with my sister who worked also in soho across town. Wow. And we were talking constantly. And after the second building fell, I called her up and said, I'm coming to get you, we're going to go home. And we lived uptown. And so I walked across town together and we were part of the mass exodus, walking four miles uptown. And of all the thousands of images that were captured that day, one image and I went through all the books and everything. You know, one image that was really never captured was this. It was very quiet. We were all walking in one direction. Just imagine thousands of people, no cars on the road, walking north.
- [23:38]
Lewis Howes
No one in the subway. No, everyone's just.
- [23:41]
Simon Sinek
Everybody's above ground and we're all going. It was very quiet and Speckled in between all of this exodus were people covered head to toe in soot plow. But other than that, everything was normal. They were holding their briefcase and their newspaper, and it was just covered in debris. They were covered. I mean, we saw the pictures of people covered, but they were just speckled. And my sister, she had two colleagues, which we dropped them off on the way. And I remember there was all four of us, and we were coming up Park Avenue, and there's a guy sitting on a stoop, frantically calling somebody, I guess, to tell them that he was alive, frantically calling. And we walked up to him and we said, give us the number. No words were spoken. I remember we just walked up and said, give us the number. We'll help call. And he held up his address book. He just pointed. He didn't have words. We all typed in the number into our phones, and we're hitting send, send, send, send, send. Every single one of us was trying to call. We were all getting busy signals. My sister's phone got through. She hands him the phone, he takes it and he says, I'm okay. I'm okay, and gives the phone back and walks away. And we're all crying, obviously. We dropped off two of my sister's friends, her colleagues, and it was just my sister and me walking up the rest of the way. And we got to Grand Central Station, which blocks Park Avenue, so you have to go around it. And as we got there, somebody started screaming, run, run, run. And we saw the cops because there were fighter jets flying over. So you heard planes, but you didn't know what they were. So you heard planes flying over. And we looked down the street, and the cops were going like this. And everybody started running and dropping things and shoes falling off. They thought another plane had hit. We didn't know what it was. So I grabbed my sister and I like. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, there's going to be a blast that's going to come down like this. And I pulled her off the street and, like, put her hands, you know, like. Like up against a building. And I look up and it's a huge glass. You know, it's a. It's a shop window. And I'm like, this is not going to be good. So I grab her and we just start running. And then eventually just sort of petered out. It was a bomb scare, it turned out later. And then we made our way to the rest of. We made our way back up town and didn't leave for, you know, two weeks. You know, we Just like everybody just started watching television.
- [26:08]
Lewis Howes
Obsessive non stop.
- [26:09]
Simon Sinek
Yeah.
- [26:10]
Lewis Howes
Holy cow. Did you guys, did you go back to work or did you. Was like, work was done for weeks.
- [26:15]
Simon Sinek
Work was done for weeks and when it opened up, like nobody really wanted to go. And my, my office was in part of the town, in part of the New York that was shut down. Like you couldn't, they couldn't get there.
- [26:25]
Lewis Howes
Holy.
- [26:26]
Simon Sinek
Like, they wouldn't, they wouldn't let you down there.
- [26:30]
Sponsor/Announcer
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- [28:00]
Lewis Howes
How did that moment of being there, ground zero, really shape you emotionally after that, after experiencing it in person? You know, I was in, I was a freshman in college when I saw it on tv and it was like, it was a big deal in Minnesota when I was in college there. It was like, you know, the whole city came together, was the whole thing, but you were there. How did that shape your.
- [28:21]
Simon Sinek
Well, my story is one of literally, you know, a couple million. I mean, there was a lot of people in New York that day. And they're all pretty unique stories, but they're all deeply touching and deeply personal for all of us. I mean, you said it. I mean, it reminds you of humanity and it reminds you, you know, And I remember that was, it was September 11th was very important to me in my career because I worked in advertising and I struggled to go back to that stupid job in that stupid industry.
- [28:47]
Lewis Howes
Really?
- [28:47]
Simon Sinek
Yeah, I really, once I did go back to work, I'm like doing with my life. Like, it's like a lot of people signed up for the military because they're like, I got to do something with my life. And I think a lot of people had the realization that the life that I live is stupid and I want to do something that matters. And that's when I started thinking this. This is the stupidest industry in the world. Like, I come to work to help people sell they don't need. Like, what are you doing with my life? And my entrepreneurial venture started pretty shortly after that so I could do things interesting.
- [29:17]
Lewis Howes
Interesting.
- [29:18]
Simon Sinek
And do things with purpose and started talking about things in a very different way. So, yeah, it was pretty formative.
- [29:24]
Lewis Howes
I mean, and it took unfortunately, a big breakdown to happen for you to start seeing. Maybe you'd already noticed it, but that was really the eye opening, like, okay, I've got to make a change.
- [29:35]
Simon Sinek
But go back to your original question, which is why does it require these things? I think that's not interesting to me. I mean, I think that's sort of like, I get it. I think what is interesting is why does it go back? Right.
- [29:47]
Lewis Howes
What do you mean?
- [29:48]
Simon Sinek
When you have that life changing experience
- [29:50]
Lewis Howes
and then you don't make a change?
- [29:52]
Simon Sinek
No, no, you do make a change, but then it runs out. So I saw this happen after September 11th in New York for quite a long time. I would say months. New York was utopia. There was no crime.
- [30:05]
Lewis Howes
No, everyone came together.
- [30:07]
Simon Sinek
Everyone came together. There was literally no crime.
- [30:09]
Lewis Howes
Everyone loved each other. Strangers.
- [30:11]
Sponsor/Announcer
What do you need?
- [30:11]
Lewis Howes
I'm here for you.
- [30:12]
Simon Sinek
There's nothing. And the total number of racially motivated crimes in New York after September 11th was zero. So nobody took their anger out on an Arab population, for example. Just didn't happen. And I remember thinking to myself, this is going to go away. We're going to forget and we're just going to go back to being New York again. And sure enough, in enough time, we got distracted by the short term. Covid was no different. In the middle of COVID we're All thinking, oh my God, you know, I have to reevaluate my life, my work life balance, you know, I don't want to work like a crazy person like I used to anymore. Productivity is not going to be my primary metric of whether I'm having a good day or not. And that went away, you know, or working like idiots again. And like productivity is like, people look down on you now if you're not having a productive day. Like we forget. And again, there's the biology of the dopamine driven animal that is more driven by the short term and the visual that to me upsets me more. It's not that you need some sort of shock to convert, but that the conversion doesn't last. Right? And so, you know, you were joking about my orange watch and you know, I use symbols to remind me and so I'm surrounded. I'm like an orange belt. And I keep things around me to remind me that these things matter. And I tell the stories. I tell the story of going to Afghanistan with the Air Force. I tell the story of my experience at September 11th. And it's in part to remind others, but it's also in part to remind me my sister suffered a horrible tragedy many years ago where she lost her fiance. He was killed right in front of her two weeks before her wedding.
- [32:02]
Lewis Howes
Oh my goodness.
- [32:03]
Simon Sinek
And during COVID she came to me and said, I think I want to talk about my experience on the podcast because I know a lot of people are losing loved ones and perhaps my experience can help them. And you know, again, it's in part for others. But reliving that, that horrible date with her is a reminder to us as well that our relationship matters and our friends matter and our lives matter and long term matters. And you know, and productivity is not the primary metric of gun day. And the ability to, I think, you know, it talked about the 20 year old versus the 70 year old. You know, it's the ability to shut out the noise, the peer pressure that judges you based on how much have you accomplished, how much money have you made, how many promotions have you had, what's your salary? You know, like we're judging our self worth based on what other people pay us. And sure, everybody wants to make more money. I got it. You know,
- [33:12]
Lewis Howes
what should we judge ourselves
- [33:13]
Simon Sinek
worth on the life that we live? I think we should judge our self worth on the value we have in the lives of others. Do other people think of you as a good friend, a good sibling, good son or daughter, a good father, a good mother? Good colleague, a good teammate. I think that I would rather judge myself on that. And again, we're dopamine, tangible driven animals. And it's much easier to judge myself based on number in a bank account because I can see it and I can count it. And if there's a lot in there, it must be valuable. And if there's little in there, that must be unvaluable. Which is nonsense because I can tell you I know a lot of rich people who have no value in the world. And rich people aren't necessarily the hardest working. I know a lot of very rich people who are lazy, and I don't criticize them for that. Just don't think that because someone's rich that they're incredibly hardworking. And please stop calling the homeless lazy. You go be homeless for a day. See how lazy you have to be. You don't have to survive with no money, no resources. Good luck. Laziness isn't. That's not it. Like, you actually have to work hard at surviving when you have nothing. And I think we have all of these metrics screwed up, and they're all based on what I can count and what I can see, rather than the value I have in the lives of others. And by the way, you don't even get to judge that because the only way you know you have value in the lives of others is if others say you have value in their lives. Right. So that's a thing. Right.
- [34:56]
Lewis Howes
I'm curious about your. Your sister's story. That. That's. That's really heartbreaking, but also fascinating that she wanted to say, hey, maybe I can help other people through my own tragedy, through my heartbreak, through my loss
- [35:10]
Simon Sinek
and the person she is.
- [35:11]
Lewis Howes
What was that? What was the lesson that you learned from you not going through it yourself, but witnessing someone that you loved go through a loss like that. What was the lesson for you?
- [35:25]
Simon Sinek
You know, I'm. There's a silver. I talk about balance all the time. There's a silver lining in every cloud. There's a cost for everything we gain in life, but at the same time, there's goodness that comes out of every loss. My sister and I were already pretty close. I mean, it made us even closer. My family and I were. My family and us were also already pretty close. We got even closer. I think tragedy brings families together in a way nothing else can. Perspective. The stupid stuff that we got stressed about just isn't that important. There's something called post traumatic growth. We love talking about post traumatic stress, but there's also post traumatic growth. There's a lot of growth that comes out of loss and tragedy as well, I think. Yeah, I think these things. I mean, you said it right at the top. Right. It's the fragility of why do we need these reminders? So I think that was a big one. And my sister's happily married. She's got two kids, built a new life. And that's super inspiring. That's correct. That people go through breakups, are divorces, and they think that's it, their life is over, they'll never find love again. I'm like, well, here to tell you, she created it. Yeah, you can find love again. You know, and she has a picture of her fiance that she lost in her office on her desk. And it's like, I see it there. And it's a nice reminder for all of us, you know, his losses is a nice reminder to all of us that live life, Love life. Easier said than done. I mean, you know, you and I write books about this stuff, and it's hard. It is hard work. And I get a kick out of that, by the way. You know, it's very easy to be a cat. Cats don't think about being cats. They're just cats. Right. But you have to be. You have to actually work really hard to be a human being. Like, being a good human being actually requires so much work. Yes. You know, and there's. There's. That's funny to me, you know, like, to be the best version of a human being is actually very difficult. In cars, studying and effort, risk and discomfort and all those things that, you know, I think this young generation is. Tries to avoid.
- [37:43]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [37:45]
Simon Sinek
Not the work part, the discomfort part.
- [37:46]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, you mentioned about, you know, we shouldn't be. I can't remember exactly what you said, but we shouldn't be focusing on our a good day, being on how productive we are. Yeah. We should have a different metric of what a good day is. How do we measure what a good day is then if it's not a productive day?
- [38:08]
Simon Sinek
So this is the problem with things that are hard to measure. Doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means they're hard to measure. You know, you're in love with your girlfriend. You know, show me the metric. Show me the number that proves to me, you know, that. That she is the love of your life. Well, you can't. You can show me a bunch of behaviors and I can ask her if she feels secure, she feels safe, she feels seen and heard. If she feels she can be her best self because of the space you provide her, But I got no number. So just because you can't measure something or just because something's difficult to measure doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Right. So that's an important lesson. I learned that in my career, too. So I had this meeting at the Pentagon. I was sitting in the foyer waiting for the general to come in for when he was ready to see me. And we've all had this experience where you're waiting in a foyer, waiting in a waiting area, and somebody will come and get you, and they take you to the conference room or the office. And because being quiet is uncomfortable, we fill the dead air. Yeah.
- [39:12]
Lewis Howes
How's your day?
- [39:12]
Simon Sinek
Exactly.
- [39:13]
Lewis Howes
What's going on?
- [39:13]
Simon Sinek
Exactly. Exactly. How was your flight?
- [39:15]
Lewis Howes
So hot out here.
- [39:16]
Simon Sinek
So hot out. Exactly. Exactly. Right. It's hallway talk. All it is is designed to fill dead air. That's it. And the minute you walk in the office, it just stops. Nobody actually cared. Well, that's what happened to me. The general came to get me. We start walking to his office, and the hallway talk begins. And he says, you know, Simon, I had everybody in my office read your book. And I said, my publisher thanks you. And he said, tell them not to bother. I had them read my copy. Total book sales, one. Total impact, huge. Compared to. I go to an event and they give away 500 free copies of the book. Total book sales, 500. But they use them as doorstops and coasters. Total impact, zero.
- [39:57]
Lewis Howes
Maybe three or four people read it, right? Yeah.
- [39:59]
Simon Sinek
So it was that experience that I realized that I can't measure impact simply based on book sales or dollars or income or anything like that. Now, over the long term, I think you can, you know, the book is sustainable, but in the short term, it's really a useless metric. So I had to get comfortable with the fact that I was doing things that I couldn't measure the impact, but I knew had an impact. And you've heard me talk about these things before. You know, I talk about exercise, where you go to the gym and you come home and you don't see anything, and you go to the gym the next day and you come home and you don't see anything. And so you're like, it's not working and you're in pain. Right.
- [40:36]
Lewis Howes
And you want to eat a cheeseburger, pizza and ice cream, and you keep
- [40:39]
Simon Sinek
doing it, and you still don't really see anything until you maybe look down and read a scale or. And sometimes that's weight, isn't even the thing. You're replacing fat with muscle. Your weight might go up, right? Until people start saying to you, you look really good. You're like young, but you never saw it happen. It's like you never see yourself get older until you look at a picture of you from when you were younger. Right. And so you believe. We know from the science and we know from experience that if I exercise, it's a process and it's good for me, even though I can't measure it in the short term. And if I eat well and I keep doing that, I know it'll keep me healthy for the long term. Of eat more leafy greens and less sugar. I know I just have to stick to this process that 100%, 100% of the time it works. How long does it take to get into shape if you start exercising? Nobody knows. Neither does any doctor. Sometimes a little less time for some people and sometimes a little more time for others. We don't know. We just know 100% that it works. And so I had to get used to the idea professionally that I'm going to do things that I know work, but I won't be able to measure them. And I just have to be okay with the fact that it works. Like exercise, like eating right. And so that's where learning an infant mindset and letting go of annual goals. So people are like, you know, what's your annual goal? I don't have any because I can't predict what I'm going to achieve based on arbitrary timelines. So I have guidelines, you know, like I run a marathon. I like to know the speed I'm going at. Like I do look at numbers. They matter to me. They help me measure speed and distance. But I don't get happy or sad if I hit or miss a number.
- [42:20]
Lewis Howes
Why do you think so many people get sad or happy based on if they hit their goals? And sometimes you hit goals and you're still not happy.
- [42:28]
Simon Sinek
Because we're dopamine driven, short term visual animals. I mean, it's going to go in a circle, right? And because we can create. If you create a goal and you hit it, you get a shot of dopamine. That is what happens, right? Any kind of beginning, middle and end. If you reach the end, you'll get the dopamine. Like, find food. Found it. Oh, it feels good. I lost my keys. Found them. Oh, my God, it feels so good, right? This is why we often confuse. On a first date we do this like falling in love on the first you know, on the first date. Not really true. That's not oxytocin and serotonin. That's actually dopamine. Because you, you think you found the thing you're looking for. So you have a list of things in your head that you want in your relationship. This person seems to have a bunch of them, and you have, you know, new relationship energy. All you see is the stuff that you want that's on your.
- [43:18]
Lewis Howes
Perfect stuff.
- [43:19]
Simon Sinek
Perfect stuff. And you're literally like, I, I think this is the bounty. Yeah, I think, I think they're the one. I'm like, congratulations, you are getting, you're flooding with dopamine on date one, right? Or day two. And you are not in love. We've all made the mistake. You are not in love.
- [43:34]
Lewis Howes
Made it too many times, of course.
- [43:36]
Simon Sinek
Go out a bunch more. Go out a bunch more. You realize what they think, right? And they've said that about me. We can't help ourselves. And I think that if you recognize these things, and let's go right back to the question where you started, which is you talked about the condition of the human relationship, right? And I think when the human relationship declines, when our feelings of love and friendship and closeness and deep, meaningful relationships decline, we become more obsessed with the external validations, the clicks, the likes, the followers, to the point where it's literally become a career. I'm an influencer, which means I have more clicks than you, more likes than you, more followers than you. And that makes me an Alpha in our society. I went to an event recently and there was this pretty girl who was, I was sitting in my seat at this event and she was posing for pictures as her friend took pictures of her. And somebody leans over to me, she goes, she's a very famous influencer. And I said, you mean she's a freelance employee of an algorithm? Because that's what an influencer is. They're freelance employees for algorithms. They might make a lot of money. Some freelancers make a lot of money and they work for the algorithm. The algorithm is their boss.
- [45:08]
Lewis Howes
They have to feed the algorithm or
- [45:09]
Simon Sinek
they have to feed the algorithm. If the algorithm changes, it could destroy their whole income. And you never get to rest. You never get to rest because the algorithm doesn't rest. You don't get to rest.
- [45:17]
Lewis Howes
And it could influence their self worth.
- [45:20]
Simon Sinek
So the smart influencers, if they're making coin, bank that coin, invest that coin, because you are going to burn out or the algorithm will change or somebody else will do it better than you, more likely you're going to burn out because nobody can maintain that pace of recording your life every moment. You know, for content, content, content. Because the algorithm never rests. Think of it like CNN. It's a 24 hour new 24 hour news cycle for your life. Crazy, right? And we saw what happened to the quality of news when we went to a 24 news cycle. 24 hour news cycle, right. Now think of some of the quality of life when you go to a 24 hour content production. Schedule your vacations, you have to bring your camera with you. You're always on, you're always on your relationships, you're bringing your camera with you. You're going to burn out. And if you've been saving your money and investing your money, you'll be just fine. But if you're spending that money, it's not going to be good.
- [46:12]
Lewis Howes
How does someone manage their own life's motivation while making sure they're being somewhat productive? To have a career that pays them an income and can cultivate growth within a career or their own business while also creating the metric of a good day. How can we balance those three of staying motivated, not being lazy. Having a balanced, healthy, beautiful day while also being productive.
- [46:46]
Simon Sinek
What's wrong with being lazy? Nothing. What does lazy mean? What does it mean to be lazy?
- [46:53]
Lewis Howes
I think my definition of I'm being thinking about it right now is more of like not caring about anything. Is it would be my definition of lazy. Like not caring.
- [47:01]
Simon Sinek
Caring. Okay, that's.
- [47:02]
Sponsor/Announcer
But I.
- [47:02]
Simon Sinek
Maybe not I think, but I think it's clear we. That we use that. Yes. Because lazy to some people might be sitting on a couch watching TV all day right now. If I've been working with crazy person.
- [47:15]
Lewis Howes
That's relaxing. That sounds good.
- [47:16]
Simon Sinek
That sounds good to me. Or maybe I'm watching documentaries and I'm generating ideas.
- [47:21]
Lewis Howes
Right? Yeah.
- [47:22]
Simon Sinek
That's not listening to me, to somebody, you know that I haven't produced something at the end of the day that's tangible because this being things being produced all the time here. Right, Ideas then. So let's be clear that what we mean by is not lazy. What we mean by is how do you live a life where you care People who don't care. So I think older generations, and I count myself amongst them, our generation is pretty judgy because we believe you go to work, you get the promotion, you move your way up the ladder and we kind of understand people who don't have ambition. What do you mean you're not interested in moving up the ladder and getting more Responsibility and one day achieving a
- [48:05]
Lewis Howes
leadership position or they feel entitled to just be a leader at 24.
- [48:12]
Simon Sinek
But we're pretty judgy, right? And I think we have to recognize that raw ambition is fine for some. And some people want to just come to work, get a paycheck and have that paycheck pay for their lifestyle. And they're not interested in moving up the ladder, they're interested in fair compensation. It's not that they don't care, they do care. They still do good work. They're just not career minded, they're lifestyle minded. And so we can't judge them as unproductive and lazy just because they don't have any aspirations to move up through the ladder. But they can't get all if they haven't been giving like massive raises when they're just managing. And I know a lot of people who are very happy, they make a decent living, they spend their money and they go on vacations and they save enough and it's all balanced and it's. I think they live fantastic lives.
- [49:12]
Lewis Howes
Great.
- [49:12]
Simon Sinek
They care.
- [49:13]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [49:14]
Simon Sinek
They care about the work and they care about the quality of their work. They care about their lives and the quality of their lives and they want the two to coexist. Right. But remember we said cost. There's a cost for everything. So if you want to be highly, highly ambitious and make all that money and get all that charm that comes at a cost to your personal life, if all you want is go on vacations, well, that came as a cost sometimes to your income or your professional stability. Right. So the goal is to find the balance that you're comfortable with. Some may tilt a little more towards ambition and some may tilt a little more towards lifestyle. And it's not for us to judge, it's for us to understand. And if I can understand that's how somebody on my team wants to live a life, then I'm okay with that. And then as long as they do good work and they care, I think that's a very good. As long as they care. I'm not going to overload them with stuff that they can prove to me that they can do it, but I want them to do good work within. Within those boundaries. Yes. And I'm cool with it. But, and we talk about like, I think this whole idea of setting boundaries, you know, it gets a little bit misunderstood, right? Like everybody thinks you have to set boundaries, which means keep people away. I refuse to do that. That's beyond my boundary. I'm not doing that. No, no, no, that's not what boundaries mean. What boundaries means are. Let me tell you what I imagine and what my limitations are. We have boundaries in relationships, right? You sit down with your partner, you co create the relationship that you want to have, and if you're a good relationship, you discuss what the boundaries are that you both agree to obey. And it's not for us to judge the boundaries of other relationships based on the boundaries of our relationships and vice versa. Right. We create the boundaries that make us comfortable and we agree to stay within those boundaries. We can do whatever we want inside those boundaries, but we cannot step outside those boundaries. Whatever relationship style you want to have, you got to have boundaries. And that is a discussion. And I think that is the right thing to do in a professional circumstance as well. It was always assumed that there's only one kind of boundary, which is the one I have.
- [51:20]
Lewis Howes
Right? Right, right.
- [51:22]
Simon Sinek
And if you go to work till 10 o' clock a night and work on a Saturday, you do it, make it happen, right? Yeah, but that's not the reality of a young generation anymore. But we're not having the discussion. What we've confused is boundaries as a conversation versus boundaries as a unilateral wall that says, I'm not doing that. And you kind of asked me to do that.
- [51:43]
Lewis Howes
Right.
- [51:43]
Simon Sinek
It should be a conversation which is somebody says, look, I'm not interested in moving up the ranks. I want to be treated fairly, I want to be paid fairly, I'm going to do good work, but I don't want to work late at night and I don't want to work on weekends because I want to live lifestyle. And I'll say, okay, like an early relationship, let's have a negotiation. Right? Which is, I'm cool with that Every now and then. Every now and then, when there's a lot of stress and things have gone haywire or we have a huge deadline, I may need you to stay late a couple nights or the occasional Saturday, but I'll give you Monday off. I'll make it up to you. I'm not going to take away from you without giving you back. And I won't do it a lot, I won't abuse it. But every now and then, are you okay with that boundary?
- [52:28]
Lewis Howes
The flexible boundary?
- [52:29]
Simon Sinek
Right. So I hear what the boundaries are. You want, you understand the things that I need. And we come to an agreement, say, yes, those are the boundaries. We're both, we're all cool with that.
- [52:39]
Lewis Howes
We're in alignment.
- [52:40]
Simon Sinek
Yes, we're in alignment. And that becomes more productive. But that's not what's happening. Usually the discussion of boundaries is me telling you, as opposed to. And by the way, try that in your relationship. Not going to go well. Me telling you what my boundaries are in my relationship as opposed to a discussion where I can understand where the boundaries are coming from. And maybe your past experiences, or maybe you've had bosses that took advantage of you or maybe you were underpaid and somebody abused the fact that you were, you know, salary or whatever it is. It's just a conversation because we don't know what somebody's previous experience is that makes them create the boundary that they have now. And they're usually based on some sort of preventing something from happening again that
- [53:16]
Lewis Howes
already happened in the past.
- [53:17]
Simon Sinek
Right. It happened to me. I'm never letting that happen to me again. Bingo.
- [53:21]
Lewis Howes
My boundary.
- [53:21]
Simon Sinek
Yeah.
- [53:21]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [53:22]
Simon Sinek
Right. Like everything. This is going to be a circular conversation for us. It's human beings interacting with human beings.
- [53:29]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [53:30]
Simon Sinek
And like, we have to do this together. The relationship is ours. My girlfriend and I joke that when we first showed up in our relationship, I wanted her to fit the blueprint that I expected of her. What I expected of a girlfriend, which was, I mean, we all have our
- [53:51]
Lewis Howes
own blueprint, Your own definition of age.
- [53:53]
Simon Sinek
We all have our own blueprints of what we want. And she wanted me to fit the blueprint of what? Of her definition of what a boyfriend should be and what my definition of a relationship should look like. And we were both failing miserably to live up to each other's blueprints.
- [54:06]
Sponsor/Announcer
Really?
- [54:07]
Simon Sinek
Of course.
- [54:07]
Sponsor/Announcer
Were you failing?
- [54:08]
Lewis Howes
Were you failing after it was discussed?
- [54:11]
Simon Sinek
Here's what I There's no discussion. Everybody shows up with a blueprint in their head and you don't. You either fit it or you don't.
- [54:16]
Lewis Howes
Right.
- [54:16]
Simon Sinek
Okay.
- [54:17]
Lewis Howes
So that's where the conflict started.
- [54:18]
Simon Sinek
Of course. And then you, they're constantly letting you down or you're picking fights or whatever it is. It didn't go very well until we sat down and be like, this is not working. And so we agreed that I have to throw out my blueprint and you have to throw out your blueprint. We like each other a lot. So we know that there's a good basis. We respect each other. We care about each other. We have all the same values. Why don't we agree to write a new blueprint together and co creation became our mantra.
- [54:47]
Lewis Howes
That's beautiful.
- [54:49]
Simon Sinek
That the relationship will not be mine and it'll not be yours. It'll be ours. And I can no Longer make a unilateral decision about what I want in this relationship because the relationship doesn't belong to me, it belongs to us. We have joint custody of this relationship. Interesting, right? And by the way, you can make unilateral decisions about what happens the relationship because it doesn't belong to you. I got 50% of this.
- [55:12]
Lewis Howes
Right?
- [55:13]
Simon Sinek
Right. And the result has been amazing. And it requires lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of communication and boundary setting discussions. And I think professional relationships should be the same, which is, I have a blueprint in my head of what an employee should do. An employee has a blueprint in their head of what a company or a boss should do. And the problem is, hopefully that goes well. Sometimes it goes well and sometimes it completely falls apart versus saying, I got this job, you got this, you're my boss. Can we have a discussion about what we want this relationship to be? I'm not going to get everything I want and you're not getting everything you want. It's not because that's the boundary like I declare. Right. That's just not going to work. Right. But can we. This is why I think it's important for companies to talk about their why and their values. I think it's important for companies to set expectations, what it's like to work here. And don't give me this work hard, play hard bull. Like any company that tells you we work hard, play hard, please run in the opposite direction. Right. Why not work smart, play always right? Because working hard sounds unhealthy and playing hard sounds very unhealthy.
- [56:28]
Sponsor/Announcer
Right.
- [56:29]
Simon Sinek
It's like, I worked too hard this week, so now I'm gonna get faced this weekend. Very unhealthy at work. Very unhealthy on the weekends. Yeah, right.
- [56:36]
Lewis Howes
Sounds like burnout recipe.
- [56:37]
Simon Sinek
Work hard, play hard is a stupid philosophy. Right? Work smart, play always right. And the point is, that's why I think it's important for companies to talk about their why, talk about their values, be honest about them, because you'll attract people who will more likely want to work within the boundaries that you're setting. Right. So for example, people often ask me about Amazon, isn't Amazon a horrible place to work? Right. And I'll say, well, they never lied.
- [57:13]
Lewis Howes
This is the expectation.
- [57:14]
Simon Sinek
They never lied.
- [57:15]
Lewis Howes
Right.
- [57:16]
Simon Sinek
They didn't say, oh my God, it's a party here every day, everybody. Like, it's just like unicorns and rainbows. No, you work three hours and you go home. Right. They never lied. They're pretty public about It's a really demanding job with ridiculous hours. And even the people who love it over the last two years, you know, like, it's a really hard place to work. But if you like those conditions, then go work there.
- [57:38]
Lewis Howes
And here are some benefits with those conditions.
- [57:40]
Simon Sinek
There's benefits or like people talk about, Steve Jobs was an A. Yes. But people who work there, people who worked at Apple under Steve Jobs, will all tell you that they were pushed harder than they've ever been pushed in their careers. And the things that they accomplished, they wouldn't have been able to accomplish anywhere else but there. Right. So if you're okay with those boundaries, then go work there. But the point is these companies tell you what their expectations are and what it's like to work there up front. And the reason that's important to do that is to attract people who are more likely to want to work within those boundaries. But it's still an act of co creation. Right. And if you don't like it, then you should leave. Yes. Right now.
- [58:23]
Lewis Howes
Enter a different relationship.
- [58:24]
Simon Sinek
Now, if the company lied to you, that's different.
- [58:26]
Lewis Howes
Yes.
- [58:27]
Simon Sinek
Right. Then you do actually have the right to complain and point fingers. And sometimes even like at Amazon, it got a little too far to reel it back a little bit. Sure, sure.
- [58:38]
Sponsor/Announcer
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- [60:08]
Lewis Howes
Why do you think I don't want to? I mean, I guess I am generalizing a little bit, but obviously this isn't the case for everyone in the younger generation. But why does it seem like there is a conversation happening about the younger generation where there is an entitlement or demand energy towards, okay, this is my first year in this job, you know, out of college, two years out. I don't have all the skills or the experience or the results to show that I'm capable of getting this. But I demand and want all of these things that the younger, the older generation wasn't able to do. And then they constantly, not generalizing, but a conversation of them wanting raises within the first month more, you know, the time off.
- [60:57]
Simon Sinek
Sure.
- [60:58]
Lewis Howes
This kind of lazy mentality and entitlement. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [61:03]
Simon Sinek
So there's multiple factors, of course. Parents is one of them. You know, it's the parenting philosophies of the generation that was a big part of it. You know, when you and I got in trouble at school, our parents said, what did you do? Now if a lot of people get in trouble at school now, their parents say, what's wrong with your teacher? Right.
- [61:22]
Lewis Howes
No, I got suspended.
- [61:23]
Simon Sinek
Right.
- [61:24]
Lewis Howes
You know, I was like, punished for Right.
- [61:25]
Sponsor/Announcer
Weeks.
- [61:26]
Simon Sinek
Right. And you know, again, sometimes it is the school and the teacher, but there's bad kids too, you know, where kids do stupid things. Sure.
- [61:34]
Lewis Howes
No, I cheated. So you did.
- [61:35]
Sponsor/Announcer
On a test.
- [61:36]
Lewis Howes
So I got the consequences, quite rightfully so. But it wasn't like, well, you know, they shouldn't punish you. Let's just, you know, do this or make an excuse for me.
- [61:45]
Simon Sinek
So parents is part of it, social media is part of it, because we're constantly comparing. My sister had somebody who worked for her back in a previous job, and he walked into her office and said, can you give me a promotion? And my sister's like, you haven't worked her own. Right. And he's like, well, hold on. No, no, no, you don't have to give me the additional responsibility. And I don't even need a salary raise. I just need the new title so I can put it on LinkedIn so my friends can see.
- [62:12]
Sponsor/Announcer
Come on.
- [62:12]
Simon Sinek
Yeah.
- [62:13]
Sponsor/Announcer
Holy cow.
- [62:13]
Lewis Howes
After what, like a few months, whatever
- [62:15]
Simon Sinek
it was, but it was really about the. The display. The display. So it became one of those metrics like followers or likes, which is how many promotions have you had on LinkedIn,
- [62:25]
Lewis Howes
you know, and it's a false sense of accomplishment, though, so.
- [62:29]
Simon Sinek
So, and it's really funny because there's a corollary here, which is we know that when there is conspicuous displays of wealth, so name brands, when you were your. Your little gooch or you know, or you get Louis Vuitton or Chanel bag, there's a reason they put the logos on the outside. Right. Is because we like that. Everybody knows, right? And there's data on this that when you wear your fancy stuff and you put it on and it makes you feel. You actually get. You get shots of Eric, you get bursts of serotonin because it makes you feel proud and like you're, you know, your higher status in, in the community and all of that. That's what conspicuous displays of wealth do. Makes us feel good. We also know that when you wear a fake, everybody may think that you got that Chanel bag, but you actually get no serotonin.
- [63:20]
Lewis Howes
So you have a fake.
- [63:21]
Simon Sinek
You know, you actually don't get the. The feeling of I'm the right. Because you didn't earn it because it's not real.
- [63:29]
Lewis Howes
It's not the real thing.
- [63:30]
Simon Sinek
So I wonder if it seems like it seems to make sense that when you have a fake promotion for the title to show your friends that though your friends maybe may be impressed because they're looking at the logo, that you actually know that it's fake. So you actually don't get a feeling of self confidence. And I think that this is good. And, and in other words, there's no growth that comes from it. In fact, it might do the opposite. I might make you insecure. Wow. Right? We know this from kids who get medals who come in last, right? Which is great. You gave them a medal. They know they didn't deserve it. Actually makes them not feel good. Interesting. Because they didn't deserve it. They know that because they. And the kids who did earn it, it's devalued because you gave one to somebody else as well. So parenting is part of it, social media is part of it. But I think the other part of it, which is not considered by older generations, My business partner talks about this all the time, which is when I entered the work field. When you entered the work field back in the day. We were legit. When we came out of college, we were legit idiots, right?
- [64:38]
Lewis Howes
We had no clue.
- [64:39]
Simon Sinek
We thought we had no skill set whatsoever, no discernible value whatsoever. You know, we all started making photocopies, right? And we had to look up to the people we worked for because they were going to teach us everything that we needed to know. And we learned a skill set from working and from the people who we worked for. Right. That was how it worked. You have a young generation now that's graduating high school and college that enters the workforce with a skill set. And sometimes it's a skill set that the older generation doesn't have. They understand personal branding, they understand social media, they understand how computers work, photography, video editing. They understand the algorithms. They can game the algorithms better than anybody. Right. Look at all the. Look at Mr. Beast. He's what, 22, 23 billions of views, right. His numbers are better than every top movie ever. Ever. Yeah, right. I went to an event once where there was all these like fancy actors and Mr. Beast was there and none of them knew who he was. And, and I was looking at, and I was like doing the numbers, which is if you took like one of the A list celebrities and added up the total number of people that have seen all of his movies ever, it doesn't even come close to like one video from Mr. Beast.
- [65:58]
Lewis Howes
Crazy, right?
- [65:59]
Simon Sinek
And yet none of them knew who he was. And they all think they're hot. And like, no, this kid's the hot. Right? So I think that's another problem. It's not a problem, but that's another consideration which is that 21 year old actually does have a skill set and they know that that skill set has value. And so they are entering the workforce knowing that they know something that you don't know. And so they're not coming in as total idiots. And they though there is still the need for them to learn and there's the sense that I already know something and so you should start giving me more upfront.
- [66:36]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [66:37]
Simon Sinek
Right. And so I think it's right for older generations to recognize that they actually know stuff we don't know and they're actually good at things better than we were when we were their age. And that has value. Just not as much value as they may think because there's still a lot more for them to learn. Sure. Or there's the application of that skill set that needs to be honed. Or maybe that skill set has no value in this job. You should have go get a job to do that. So it's.
- [67:04]
Sponsor/Announcer
What is the.
- [67:05]
Lewis Howes
I mean, we're generalizing this, but what is the greatest skill that the younger generation has going into the workforce and the thing that will hold them back the most?
- [67:17]
Simon Sinek
Oh, that's a good question. I think they're probably one in the same, to be honest. I think it's a complete comfort and facility with technology integrated into their lives. Fully integrated, which is a blessing and a curse. I'm just a repeating record, which is there's a balance and there's a cost for everything. And the cost for that facility and that ease and that comfort with technology is deep, meaningful relationships.
- [67:45]
Lewis Howes
Interesting because they're on the phone 20 hours a day as opposed to connecting in person or worse.
- [67:52]
Simon Sinek
They think being connected and connecting to the same thing. I had a fight with a 16 year old a couple years ago that they, her and her friends send voice messages to each other. And I said, why don't you just pick up the phone and call each other? She goes, we are. I'm like, no you're not. You're sending voice memos to each other. She genuinely believed that that was a conversation, right? It's not a conversation.
- [68:14]
Lewis Howes
It's a disjointed.
- [68:15]
Simon Sinek
It's listening to my answering machine and then leaving somebody's message on their answering machine. And that's what it is. Just in real time. It's just quicker. Right? But I think that. And when we feel a little lonely or down because we have such facility with the stuff, we go to the stuff to be a balm for that feeling of loss or loneliness we have. It's not that different for any white. Why alcoholics drink or, you know, which is. Alcoholics drink only for a finite number of reasons, which is social stress, career stress and social stress. It's pretty much it. Did I say financial? And you know, when, when. And we see it all the time. Right. You see, you know, Brene Brown talks about this as well, which is we've confused vulnerability and broadcasting, which is making a video by yourself in your room of you crying because you're depressed or you got broken up with or whatever, you know, and you just being vulnerable and then you have that expression validated by likes and views.
- [69:26]
Lewis Howes
That's not vulnerability, it's not vulnerability.
- [69:28]
Simon Sinek
That's simply broadcasting your emotions by yourself. By the way, you're by yourself in your room with your phone. Right? That's literally what's happening now. I challenge people who do that, go have that exact conversation, say all the same words to a friend in the Same room as them. And you'll find that much more difficult.
- [69:49]
Lewis Howes
Is it harder to broadcast to a million people your emotions than it is to one person in person?
- [69:56]
Simon Sinek
No, it's easier.
- [69:58]
Lewis Howes
It's easier to do. To broadcast.
- [69:59]
Simon Sinek
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [70:00]
Lewis Howes
Than it is to have a conversation with a friend, a family member, or someone close to you.
- [70:04]
Simon Sinek
I can go on. I can hit play. I can hit record on FaceTime, and I can look in my computer and be like, I'm struggling. I'm really having a hard time. Stop play. I'm gonna do that again. Record.
- [70:18]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [70:18]
Simon Sinek
I'm struggling. I'm really having a hard time. Real talk here. Just talking. Real talk, you know, Just speaking my truth here, you know? And I want you guys to know that, you know, I'll get through this
- [70:35]
Lewis Howes
and then analyze it afterwards and then post it.
- [70:39]
Simon Sinek
Pick a picture to go on it, you know, versus going to a friend and sitting across a table from somebody and going, I'm struggling, and I don't know what's going on. That's excruciating.
- [70:50]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [70:51]
Simon Sinek
That's true vulnerability. Because there is no vulnerability doing it by yourself. Like, there's a perception of vulnerability. Just the same way I can turn on a movie and watch an actor playing vulnerability, right? And I'm like, oh, my God. So. Well, I'm watching the performance of vulnerability. So for me, the viewer, it's real, right? And for. And I have no doubt that the person making the video is feeling something. I get it.
- [71:16]
Lewis Howes
But they're creating a piece of art.
- [71:17]
Simon Sinek
But they're. But they're. But they're not. It's not that they're creating a piece of art. It's that they're not the thing that. That will help them. The thing that will help them get over that feeling and feel safe is not the number of likes that validate the expression. The thing that'll make them feel safe is for them to take the. Have the incredibly uncomfortable, awful conversation with somebody where they say the same things, and that person sits there and goes, I got you. I got you. Right? And, like, I remember, I have a friend who's. He's. He's an impressive. He's an impressive dude. And. And I love him to death. And I didn't want to show him vulnerability because I am so impressed by him. I wanted to be impressed by him, to be impressed by interesting. He's so strong. I want him to know that I'm strong, right? I don't want him. And it's not because I intellectually understand the Importance of vulnerability. But it's still. I want to. I want my friend to like me. My amazingly impressive friend that I think is super impressive, to think I'm impressive, too, and I'm on his level. And I remember I was struggling. I called him up and I go, I'm not in a good place. And he was like, what do you got, bud? What have you need? And I remember we were I out once, and I said to him, you know, you're one of those friends that I would call in a hard time. And he said to me, I'd be mad if you didn't. And we have this magical relationship now where we open up to each other and we open up to each other, and it doesn't at all do any damage to what I think about him. In fact, it makes me think more of him.
- [72:56]
Lewis Howes
That's beautiful. The interesting thing. Not to interrupt you there, but the interesting thing that you said, intellectually, I think all of us think I don't want to. I want to be on their level. So I want to be strong or make sure that I'm representing myself in a way that is at their level. And if I'm vulnerable or showing that I'm struggling, then will I be less than that?
- [73:16]
Simon Sinek
Correct.
- [73:17]
Lewis Howes
Why is that when actually vulnerability brings us closer together?
- [73:22]
Simon Sinek
Well, it's also a story we say in our own heads, right. Because it turns out he's not all buttoned up, and it turns out he's not got every answer. And it turns out everything he touches doesn't turn to gold. And it turns out he's got insecurities, and it turns out he's got fears, and turns out he's got anger, and he's got frustration, and he's got all those things, too. Turns out he's human. And this is where the relationship became beautiful, which is. He is more impressive than me. He's a much more impressive guy than I am. And I love him to death, and he loves me to death. Not because we're comparing our resumes. It's because we trust each other and hold space for each other. And I've seen him at his worst, and he's seen me at my worst, and that's fine. And I think that's what social media doesn't allow. And again, forget about the people who they're broadcasting to. I have absolutely. You've helped me. Seeing this has helped me. I know that when I broadcast things, it helps. It helps people. I know that. And. And. And that has value. Yes. I'm talking about the person who's making the video, who's struggling themselves, how they find safety and salvation. They will not find it in the broadcast. They will at some point have to go to a friend and ask for help. And they can still make the broadcast to serve others, but anti the broadcast. But that person is kidding themselves if they think that is the way to find peace and calm in a life.
- [74:50]
Lewis Howes
Yeah. There's something that I wanted to go back to. I'm loving all this. By the way. Thank you for sharing so openly. Which is about the breakdown in life and the breakdown, the scenario, the situation that causes us to either fall apart or come together or start to look differently about our life and ask what's the point of the direction we're heading? I'm curious in your mind again. There's been a lot that's happened in the last few years. Pandemic, war and AI which is being talked about more obviously. It's been around for a long time, but now it's being talked.
- [75:30]
Simon Sinek
Yeah. And then it's moving at a pace that's ridiculous. It was just very, very scary. I don't mean to diminish. It is going to pay fast. You know, when the Internet showed up, the adoption for Internet was years.
- [75:39]
Lewis Howes
Yes.
- [75:40]
Simon Sinek
The adoption for most technologies is decades. This thing is increasing its potential and its speed in weeks and months.
- [75:47]
Lewis Howes
Which is.
- [75:48]
Simon Sinek
And which is not giving us time to consider that balanced equation. That's the part I find scary.
- [75:53]
Lewis Howes
Yes.
- [75:53]
Simon Sinek
Is not the technology, it's the speed of adoption. Right. And social ripples. Social ripples, yes. And remember, governments have to adopt it. They don't have a choice. Right, Right. So like nuclear weapons. Right. When nuclear weapons showed up, governments had to. Whether they wanted to or not was relevant. They had to. Because if the other one does, we don't have a choice.
- [76:13]
Lewis Howes
Right.
- [76:13]
Simon Sinek
It's the same thing here. Like all of the defensive and offensive weapons and governments have to. They have no choice. But we actually do have the ability to set pace and we're not. And there is fear of being left out. There's massive fomo. So one company is investing in it. Heavenly. Other one's like, we have to invest in it heavenly. Because they are. So we have to.
- [76:31]
Lewis Howes
Right.
- [76:31]
Simon Sinek
Right. And so there's FOMO and fear of being left behind. And some of it's true, but not necessarily the pace and blindness which we're throwing the technology at our companies and our businesses. And I think history will always repeat itself, which is when you do something blindly and too quickly at some point it's going to break. Right, Right. And so we don't know what or how that looks, what, when it's going to happen, but it's probably going to happen. Right. I mean, think, you know, nature abhors imbalance and seeks equilibrium at all times. This is why when this is stock market crash, we call it a correction. Right. Because there is imbalance and it finds correction. Like that's how mother Nature works. She always finds balance at some point. Right.
- [77:17]
Lewis Howes
You don't know when, but it's.
- [77:18]
Simon Sinek
I don't know when, but it is going to happen.
- [77:19]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [77:20]
Simon Sinek
Right. And I think that the imbalance that we're creating with the speed of the adoption of the technology that we don't fully understand, the balance is going to happen.
- [77:29]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [77:29]
Simon Sinek
I don't know how, I don't know what. I know what's going to look like. No one can predict it. There's a lot of people trying and there's no way to slow it down because now the genie's out of the bag. No one's going to be like, you know what, I'll be the one to slow it down.
- [77:42]
Lewis Howes
Right.
- [77:42]
Sponsor/Announcer
Let's stop this.
- [77:43]
Simon Sinek
Yeah, yeah. You know, government can put some guardrails on. Europe is actually attempting to put some guardrails on, which I think is helpful.
- [77:48]
Lewis Howes
Interesting. Yeah.
- [77:49]
Simon Sinek
America, not so much.
- [77:50]
Lewis Howes
Right.
- [77:51]
Simon Sinek
You know, we think guardrails are anti capitalist, which they're not. They're just guard rails.
- [77:55]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, exactly.
- [77:58]
Simon Sinek
We can debate where the guard rails are, but guardrails are good.
- [78:01]
Lewis Howes
Sure, sure, sure.
- [78:05]
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- [79:50]
Lewis Howes
Learn more@electricforall.org you mentioned early on I like that you talked about the fear that causes a lot of social ripples with these different things that happen. Right. Especially around AI or around pandemics or around war. Right. You've mentioned a few of these things. With everything we've seen in the last few years. Which one do you think will cause more fear and more emotional reactions or social ripples between another virus or pandemic like experience, war or AI and the acceleration of AI?
- [80:36]
Simon Sinek
I think income inequality is bigger than all of them.
- [80:40]
Lewis Howes
Which, what is that?
- [80:40]
Simon Sinek
Income inequality.
- [80:41]
Lewis Howes
Income inequality will create more social ripples and fear than these three.
- [80:45]
Simon Sinek
Yeah, just look at what's been happening over the past 30, 40 years. The rise of populism, the rise of strongman leaders, the cynicism about democracy. And it's not that democracy or capitalism are bad. It's that this version of democracy, this version of capitalism, not democracy, this version of capitalism that we have, that was largely engineered in the 80s and 90s by people like Jack Welch and Republican and Democratic presidents at the time, is woefully imbalanced. And it is lopsided. The stock market used to be a place that the average working American could share in the wealth of the nation. And now the stock market has become the bastion for the few CEOs who are incentivized by the price of inequity, work hard to make other people rich, and often don't include the workers or worse, use the workers to help balance those books. The use of mass layoffs, which was a relatively modern phenomenon, didn't exist in The United States prior to the 1980s really didn't exist. I mean, there were layoffs, but not to balance the books. They were used for existential reasons, like, we're going bankrupt. We have to do something drastic. Right. Versus oh, we missed our numbers. You lose your job. Wow, that didn't exist. And so we have a very woefully flawed version of capitalism that is not the capitalism that made America great. Nor is a capitalism, the kind of capitalism that Thomas Jefferson was enamored by as written by Adam Smith. And I think that disparity, and we're seeing it play out now in the strikes, the writer's strike and the actor strike, and the actors strike, which is people working hard to make a small group of people very wealthy and being left out. Nobody minds that a CEO is highly paid. The problem is that it's the system of how they get paid, that you're not including and bringing people with you. That's the problem. That you're making money off of their backs without them letting feel like they're sharing in the spoils that they help create. That's the problem. And we know how we got here. It's because, again, this goes back to metrics. Right. The way we measured money was very easy. This sort of going off on a tangent, if we really want to talk about it.
- [83:13]
Lewis Howes
I like your tangents.
- [83:14]
Simon Sinek
Which is very easy. Right. And this has been talked about. This is not. This is not a new idea. I would broadcast a TV show and I could count how many people viewed it. Right. Ratings. And then I could get picked up for syndication. And I can count everything. And I can give you a percentage of all the things that I can count. Right. Whereas when we went to streaming and everybody, when streaming first showed up, they thought it would be minor. So they didn't. It wasn't built into the contract.
- [83:45]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [83:46]
Simon Sinek
It was considered an alternative media. Don't worry about it now. But now when something gets a billion views, there's no direct advertising dollars applied to that show and there's no syndication applied to that show. And even though that show may. We can't tell that that's what. Why somebody subscribed because the subscription made the money, not the show. Even though the show is. Gets more views than everybody else. And so. And Netflix and none of the streamers tell you the numbers.
- [84:18]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, yeah.
- [84:18]
Simon Sinek
Of the views. Which is really a bad idea because it goes back to metrics and numbers, which is. If you can count it, you need to share the numbers so that we can establish a value and if we can establish a value, we can say what it's worth. Right. So hiding numbers is never a good thing when it comes to playing with people's income.
- [84:39]
Lewis Howes
What do you think capitalism should be? The new definition of capitalism should be then?
- [84:44]
Simon Sinek
Well, it's everything that I write about in every single one of my books.
- [84:47]
Lewis Howes
The infinite game.
- [84:48]
Simon Sinek
Yeah, the infinite game. Leaders eat less and start with why all are attempting to chip away that. You know, start with why was that companies should be driven by higher calling and higher purpose, not just. Not just making money. It's totally anti Milton Friedman and Jack Welch. I mean, I hope to undo everything Jack Welch ever did. Leaders at last was about taking care of the people in our care. That leadership is not about being in charge, but taking care of those in your charge. And the infinite game is recognizing that this game of business cannot be won. So stop playing it like it's a finite game and stop using people as pawns and start being grateful that they're helping you advance something bigger than yourself. And I lay it out there. I lay out what the principles of capitalism should be. In the chapter where I done Milton Friedman, I offer an alternative list of hierarchy and priorities. Can't remember what they are.
- [85:47]
Lewis Howes
I'm hearing you say.
- [85:48]
Simon Sinek
Go ahead.
- [85:49]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, Feel free to share.
- [85:51]
Simon Sinek
Chapter 5. What page is it on? Capitalism should advance a cause, protect people, and generate profit. In that order.
- [86:05]
Lewis Howes
One more time.
- [86:07]
Simon Sinek
Advance a purpose, protect people, generate profit. So the responsibility of business is to use its will and resources to advance a greater cause than itself, protect the people and places in which it operates, and generate more resources so that it can continue doing all those things for as long as possible. An organization can do whatever it likes to build its business so long as it is responsible for the consequences of its actions. That is for me, what capitalism should be.
- [86:37]
Lewis Howes
And we're not seeing that right now.
- [86:39]
Simon Sinek
No, it's the opposite order. It's generate profit, you know, advance. On your website it's called marketing and protect people when it suits us.
- [86:51]
Lewis Howes
Interesting.
- [86:52]
Simon Sinek
Nah, nah. Like version of capitalism we have right now is pretty bastardized.
- [86:56]
Lewis Howes
So I'm hearing you say the income inequality and where that's heading is a greater fear and risk than another pandemic. AI and war.
- [87:09]
Simon Sinek
Whenever you have a huge delta between the those that have and those that don't have, you have revolution. Wow.
- [87:21]
Lewis Howes
But this is happening all over the world, not just in America.
- [87:23]
Simon Sinek
Right, of course.
- [87:23]
Lewis Howes
I mean, none of the countries.
- [87:25]
Simon Sinek
There's a rise of populism around the world. There's a rejection of democratic values because they've confused democratic values and the version of capitalism we have. They've conflated the two.
- [87:35]
Lewis Howes
Right. So what usually happens in a scenario like this? And how long does it take for that thing to occur? What has history taught us?
- [87:46]
Simon Sinek
There's going to be a revolution, really,
- [87:48]
Lewis Howes
around the whole world.
- [87:49]
Simon Sinek
Come on. No, I mean, come on. I mean, January 6th, these are not the signs. I mean, listen to the messaging of the populists. It's the haves versus the have nots. And the left needs to listen. They're quick to. The left and the right are both quick to criticize the leaders of each other's movements, but they're missing, they're not listening to why people are interested in those messages. They both think both sides think the other side are sheeple. Both think the other side are blind, deaf and dumb. And yet neither side is paying attention as to why they both have their own rabid followings. And problem is, most of the country is moderate. Most of our nation is pretty moderate. Most of our nation is pretty fine. In between, willing to find compromises not really reasonable. And yet the angry extremes on both sides have seemed to set the tone.
- [88:59]
Lewis Howes
They're playing a finite game.
- [89:00]
Simon Sinek
But, but, you know, I. I'm genuinely afraid of, of. And I don't know how it looks or when it happens or. But I'm. I think, Yeah, I think when we start ripping, when we start accusing each other of being traitors, I mean, the left and the right literally say call each other traitors or un American. That's not good. That's not good. That's not good. Not good.
- [89:25]
Lewis Howes
I've got a few final questions for you. This has been powerful. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for opening up and sharing. We could go on for hours. This is a question I asked you before that is called the three Truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It is that last day on earth for you and you get to live as long as you want, extend your life as long as you want, and create and do all the things you want to do. Yeah, but for whatever reason, it's the last day and you've accomplished everything or not. And just live beautiful days without accomplishments. But you can't take or. Excuse me, Everything you've created has to go with you. This conversation, gone. Your books, they're gone. It's on to another world or somewhere else. They're not in this world. Everything you've ever said or done, we don't have access to anymore. But you get to leave behind three lessons. I call it the three truths. Three things that you know from your experiences are true to you that you would want to leave behind as lessons to the world. What would be those three truths for you?
- [90:34]
Simon Sinek
Really love the people who love you. Really love them. Learn all the human skills that you need to be a good human being. Who's being human is hard. And have as much fun as possible. And what I mean by having much fun as possible doesn't mean playing video games and taking vacations every moment. But make jokes. Make jokes, have a sense of humor. You can't be angry and laugh at the same time. You know, Stephen Colbert talks about this. You can't. Like there's something magical in a high stress situation as a joke. And you know, whether it's gallows humor or whether it's. You find the absurdity in something, you know, it's like, just make sure to maintain your sense of humor. Yeah. So love those who love you desperately. Learn the human skills to be a great human being. And make sure that you appreciate that life really is fun.
- [91:45]
Lewis Howes
Over a thousand conversations, I don't think I've heard them in that. In that way. Those three truths, I've asked it every time and I didn't expect that from you. So that was really beautiful. I appreciate you sharing those three. I would acknowledge you, Simon, for your constant personal growth.
- [92:00]
Simon Sinek
No, thank you.
- [92:01]
Lewis Howes
Your constant personal growth. You know, I've watched you for years, you know, be a phenom on the Internet with TED Talk and books and all, you know, all the things and accolades, you know, I've been at events with you, I've had you on the show. We know a lot of the same people and you know, but I really love just watching you personally grow as a human being, speak about these things. Loving people desperately, having as much fun as possible. You know, being someone who's looked at as an intellectual and extremely smart. Talking about humor and fun is awesome for me to hear. And being the best human you can be, knowing that this is a challenging existence or it can be unless you choose to learn skills and overcome it. So I'm really acknowledge you for your personal growth.
- [92:49]
Simon Sinek
Thank you.
- [92:50]
Lewis Howes
And hope now that we're more neighbors, I'll run into you more frequently and get to give you more hugs. So I really acknowledge you for.
- [92:58]
Simon Sinek
Thank you.
- [92:58]
Lewis Howes
Everything. And I also acknowledge you for this, which I think is interesting, asked you before you came on here today. I acknowledge you for not having something to be productive in right now. Of course you've Got, you know, book and your podcast and, you know, content that you're creating, but you're not. Like, I'm working on this massive project and I've got to do it. I've got this deadline, and it's got to be this way. You're like, yeah, I'm allowing ideas to come to me, I'm allowing things to form, I'm building deeper relationships, I'm connecting with my. My girlfriend. I'm doing these things. Acknowledge you for that because I think it's hard at times to allow ourselves to not be overly productive and always creating something and always trying to strive to be on top. So I acknowledge you for being in that space. I think it's a beautiful thing, too.
- [93:45]
Simon Sinek
Well, that's very nice of you. I think it's important to know who you work for. Right? So I would only have stress to come up to write another book if I believed that I worked for my publisher, but I don't. And I would only have stress about the amount of content creation I have to produce if I believed I worked for the algorithm, but I don't. I work for the people who share this world with me. I work for my friends, I work for my family. I work for the people who see the world the way I see it. And I try to work very hard to live a life of service. And the way I manage my social media is. I say something that I think is additive. I never pile on because there's no point. I'm very prescriptive that I will speak if I have something that I believe is additive. And if I have nothing to say and if I have nothing to write, then I'm going to say nothing and I'm going to write nothing. And I think you have to know who your customer is and then be fiercely customer oriented. And I use the word customer in quotes like, if you're a parent, your kids are your customer. If you're a teacher, your students are your customer. If you're a nurse, your patients are your customer. And I think you have to be fiercely, fiercely customer focused. In my chosen line of work, my customer is the army who chooses to stand shoulder to shoulder with me to build the world that we imagine. A world in which people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do.
- [95:23]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, I love it, man. I want everyone to support you. And you've got a number of great books. The Infinite Game is one that I think the themes have been spoken about throughout here over and over again of how we can start reimagining our own personal lives or career industries, you know, everything the world. So I want people to get this start with why obviously as a, as a phenom that everyone should have as well if they haven't got it. Your SimonCini.com has got all your content and information. I love your Instagram and your LinkedIn is massive as well if you guys
- [95:55]
Simon Sinek
are over there all focused on human skills.
- [95:56]
Lewis Howes
Exactly. So if you want to develop better human skills, follow wherever you're on social media and places.
- [96:04]
Simon Sinek
All the. All the things.
- [96:04]
Lewis Howes
All the things. The podcast bit of optimism. You can check it out there if you want to go deeper as well. But how else can we be of service to you today?
- [96:13]
Simon Sinek
Do the things like being of service to me is I'm one person who puts out a vision of the world and some tools to help build it. But until leaders lead with those tools, until we and by leader I don't mean those in charge, I mean those who choose to take on the awesome responsibility to see those around us rise, which can happen at alien level inside an organization or in our society. And what I need people to do is do it because my work is intangible and I need people to make it tangible.
- [96:45]
Lewis Howes
Yeah. Final question. What's your definition of greatness?
- [96:50]
Simon Sinek
I think it's everything we've talked about. My definition of greatness is living a life of service and the people that I think are great devoted themselves to the lives of others.
- [97:00]
Sponsor/Announcer
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode showed in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how
- [97:35]
Lewis Howes
we can support and serve you moving forward.
- [97:37]
Sponsor/Announcer
And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out
- [97:46]
Lewis Howes
there and do something great.
- [97:55]
Simon Sinek
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