← The School of Greatness
The School of Greatness
Simon Sinek: Why FRIENDSHIP Is The Key To Your Abundance & Success
01:34:10
Simon Sinek examines how modern capitalism has sacrificed ethics for profits, revealing why service to others delivers more lasting happiness than personal achievement while offering practical strategies for leaders to rebuild trust and resolve conflicts in our binary world.
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- [00:00]
A
If you are feeling any frustration, any sadness, any overwhelm, depression. If you're feeling like just, I'm not catching the break. I'm getting sick all the time. I'm not creating the financial opportunities I want. I feel like people are using and abusing me. If this is part of your narrative right now and your reality, then I want you to know that in today's episode, we are diving into a topic on how to really create more fulfillment and happiness in your life. I'm bringing on Simon Sinek today, who's one of today's most influential thought leaders. And we're talking about perspective and how obviously comparison is the thief of joy. And social media creates a lot of comparison. Feeling like we're not enough. But how lasting happiness comes from contribution rather than achievement, and why friendship might be the most valuable asset that we're sacrificing in our pursuit of success. And let me tell you something. I have accomplished a lot in my life and I'm grateful for my accomplishments. But for part of this time, in my teens and my 20s, when I was accomplishing, I was not happy because I was pursuing something to try to be seen, to try to be accepted, to try to fulfill some wound and mend something from my past. And never felt good. It felt momentarily like exciting. But at the end of the day, I went back into sadness and suffering and kind of frustration and overwhelm and all that stuff. And so we need to be thinking about how can we truly create lasting happiness, lasting joy, and that comes from contribution rather than achievement. Now, let me say this. I love accomplishments. I love achievements. It's fun for me. You know, my new book just came out, Make Money Easy, and it hit the New York Times bestseller list. And I was, like, excited about it. I was like, that's awesome. Because we put a lot of work into putting it out there and creating the work. And I like accomplishing things. It's a nice validation. But here's the thing. I have gotten to the place where, sure, maybe I would have been let down had I not accomplished the goal I set out to. But the thing that I'm focused on more is how can I contribute to as many people as possible in the pursuit of the goal, in the pursuit of the dream. And if you can match contribution with the collective effort of the pursuit of goals, dreams and accomplishments, and if you get both, then amazing. But if you don't get the goal, if you don't get the dream, if it doesn't happen, the thing you really want, if you don't make the certain amount of money that you want that year, whatever it is, but you're making a difference to a few people. You're contributing to someone's life that's way more meaningful than accomplishment and and feeling like it's not enough accomplishment and success and feeling like you don't really have deep, meaningful relationships. So this is something we're going to be diving into and so much more. And I hope that this is coming to you at the exact right time in your life. And if it is, feel free to let me know and share this with one or two friends that you think would benefit from this conversation with myself and Simon Sinek. And make sure to follow over on Apple Podcast over on Spotify and leave us a review on one of those platforms as well, with your biggest takeaway or your biggest aha moment. I love reading your reviews and all of your feedback over there, and I'm very excited about today's guest. So let's go ahead and dive in with Simon Sinek. This podcast is sponsored by Northwestern Mutual. Everyone wants to feel good about their finances, right? Well, that's why I've had life insurance with Northwestern Mutual for years. Their financial professionals ask the right questions, truly listen, and help uncover opportunities most people miss. I've seen it firsthand. Northwestern Mutual has been a part of my journey from the very beginning, providing the security and peace of mind I need as a human and an entrepreneur. Find a better way to money@n m.com the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company Milwaukee, Wisconsin paid testimonial by a Northwestern Mutual Policy owner Fuel your greatness with Wonderful Pistachios no shells Wonderful Pistachios is a great source of protein with zero guilt. Each 1 ounce serving has 6 grams of protein, giving you over 10% of your daily value. Pistachios are known for their protein, power, fiber and better for you, unsaturated fats for a combination that may help keep you feeling fuller longer. And now there's a new way to snack Strong with unsalted no shells holding the salt, not the flavor. For a snack that packs a protein punch. Visit wonderful pistachios.com to learn more. Good News Spring savings are back at the Home Depot. The Home Depot has everything you need for that spring project you spent all winter planning. Save on top brand cordless power like mowers, leaf blowers, trimmers and more that you'll need to get started. And yes, you can use the same battery to power them all. And you can find them at the Home Depot Whether you've got big plans for your backyard or you want to get patio ready with colorful flowers, planters, and outdoor lighting, the Home Depot has you covered. Shop Spring savings now at the Home Depot. It seems like the biggest sacrifice most humans are making today is a sacrifice of not having friends for success, for career, for greatness, for whatever it is. People pursuing something so passionately for writing their books, for creating their business, whatever it might be. It's like, well, I'm going to commit for this decade or two decades to being the best I can be at.
- [05:33]
B
The sacrifice of friends.
- [05:34]
A
And at the sacrifice of friends.
- [05:36]
B
All right, well, that one's different because that not a single person when, when they achieve the thing that they achieve will ever, ever, ever say that was worth it. None. Zero. I've talked to so many people who decided grades, career, money. I don't need friends. I just need people who can help me achieve my goals. And the result is loneliness.
- [06:01]
A
Yes.
- [06:02]
B
I mean, look at, you know this as an athlete, right? Look at Olympic. Look at Olympians, right? Especially individual sports, individual athletes, team sports, they don't really. It's not really the same thing, which is they have a dream when they're fairly young, and their dream is to, and you know how they put it, Win the Olympics. Nobody wins the Olympics, right? That's how I'm going to win the Olympics, right? And every relationship they have is, can you help me? Are you going to help me? And individual athletes, tennis players, I mean, they're very similar. Like, every relationship they have is, are you going to benefit my dream? And if not, then I have no space for you. And they don't really have friendships. They have transactional relationships. Coaches, support trainers, Trainers, you know, a supportive parent, you know, and some of them will get to the Olympics, and some of them might even medal. And when it's time to retire, what they achieve is loneliness. Michael Phelps becomes the most medaled Olympian all in history. What's the immediate result? Depression. Andre Agassi becomes the most celebrated tennis player of all time. What's the immediate result? Loneliness, Depression. And none of them will look back and say, oh, my God, I think that was worth it. The thing you're celebrated for is fleeting. You'll be forgotten. You'll be replaced. Someone else.
- [07:24]
A
There'll be a new upcoming.
- [07:27]
B
I was walking down Avenue of the Stars here in California, here in Los Angeles, and I was reading the names of some of these movie stars. I'd never heard of them.
- [07:37]
A
Maybe there's two or three of 40.
- [07:39]
B
Years ago, 30 years ago, whatever they were, 50 years ago, whatever they were, these were the Ryan Reynolds of the day. I had never heard of any of them. Steven Spielberg, some director. No, I'd never heard of him. These were the most famous people of their time and I had no clue who they were. And every single celebrity. My niece doesn't know who Arnold Schwarzenegger is. Why should she? And the only reason my nephew knows who he is is because I made him watch Terminator. And so I think we forget that fame is fleeting and we will all be replaced by somebody else who will have the job after us. You and I both know this. I'm fully aware that my books are out there, my ideas are out there and somebody else will have an idea and it'll replace my idea just like I replace somebody else's. This is all borrowed time.
- [08:37]
A
Then why do so many people want to be rich and famous? What is missing within them that they want success, fame or wealth or to be known so badly?
- [08:47]
B
Well, I think we've over indexed on that. We can't ignore social media. We cannot ignore, you know, prior to social media, you know, only a small percentage of people listening to this will know what I'm talking about. We used to watch Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous with Robin Lynch.
- [09:07]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [09:08]
B
You know, champagne dreams and what is it? Caviar dreams and champagne.
- [09:13]
A
MTV Cribs was like MTV Cribs and.
- [09:15]
B
We, you know, we watch television of rich and famous people and it was, I mean it's amazing. Like we, we. It is. There is an aspirational nature to it and I'm sure back in the day we looked at the carriages that went by the princes and you know, dukes and went oh one day. You know, I'm sure it's aspirational and I, and I think in healthy doses there's nothing wrong with it.
- [09:37]
A
Yeah.
- [09:38]
B
You know, this is the magical thing about a lottery. You know, for $1 you can have a dream for an entire week. Right. You spend $1 and you are already dreaming about how you're going to spend the money and then you don't win, of course. And you're not upset about it. It's not like you spent the money already. It's just a dream. You just paid for the dream. And it's, you know, if you're going to spend a dollar, it's different than being addicted to the lottery. That's different. That's like betting the farm, hoping like that that's your actual retirement plan. That's unhealthy. That's different. But if you spend a dollar every now and then, a couple bucks every now and then just for the fantasy, I think it's very healthy. I think it's fun. Right. And it's to your point about intention, but I think what, what has happened in our society is fame and fortune used to come as a result of doing something else. It was the unintended byproduct. Like I discovered, you know, radio radiation. Oh, Marie Curie, you're so famous. Right? Or I did this amazing painting. Oh, Picasso, you're so famous, so rich. Right. That fame and fortune came as a result of plying a trade or contributing to something bigger than yourself. And now fame and fortune are the currency. Like people crave fame and fortune without doing anything. And they're looking for a hack, they're looking for a trick to game the system to get the fame and the fortune without actually contributing to the lives of others in any shape or form.
- [11:07]
A
What's the price people pay who get famous without contribution beyond fame?
- [11:11]
B
Loneliness, dissatisfaction. I recently spoke to Vivek Murthy, who's the Surgeon General of the United States. And he was an A type personality kid who was driven by grades. I'm going to get A's. I'm going to get A's. I'm going to perform. I'm going to perform at the sacrifice of Prince. Just like what we talked about. Right. School is number one. And at the age of 17, I don't remember the circumstances, but he had to do some sort of like do good program. Maybe school required it, maybe he needed to do it for his college application. Who knows? Right. I'm sure it was not out of altruism. It was. And he set up sort of an AIDS education peer, peer to peer AIDS education program in India. Right. And he said it was the most powerful thing he ever felt. He'd never felt anything like it.
- [12:00]
A
Really. Why?
- [12:01]
B
The idea of contributing to the lives of others. Service, service. And he spent years trying to recreate that feeling, not knowing how to get that feeling again. And no amount of commercial success, grade success. You know, he went to medical school, getting, getting the best residency, like none of the traditional trappings gave him the feeling that he had when he got to give something to somebody else.
- [12:28]
A
Wow.
- [12:29]
B
And I think we forget that we are a legacy animal in a modern world. Like we are a very outdated animal. This machine is tens of thousands of years old and it's had no upgrades, no OS upgrades ever, Ever. Right. And yet the world is super modern and our and our systems are really archaic and antique and old fashioned. And so you have to understand the way the human being is designed is we're designed to look after each other. You know, like everybody talks about dopamine, you know, the dopamine hit. Well, dopamine is in your system for a simple reason. Caveman. We go back to caveman times. It's to make sure that you eat and to make sure that you find shelter, right? So you see the apple tree in the distance. You get a little shot of dopamine. It says, that's the thing you want. Go get it. And as you get closer to the thing you want, you measure the steps and the progress. And in this case, the tree gets a little bigger because you're getting a little closer. It gets another shot of dopamine that says, keep going, keep going. Feels so good. And then finally you get. You kill the animal. You, you, you get to the berry tree, whatever it is, you catch the fish, you're like, yes. Right? Win the game. Yes. You know, like when you're training and you can see, you can. You want that, you want that win. And you get closer and closer and closer, and then you win. You get the fish, you get the thing, you get the thing you wanted. Then the feeling goes away. Like, do you remember that incredible feeling you had when you won that tournament? Okay.
- [14:09]
A
Yeah.
- [14:10]
B
That feeling is gone.
- [14:11]
A
Gone.
- [14:11]
B
That feeling is gone. That feeling that you had that day, it's a memory. Gone. It's a memory you can recall, but you. The feeling is go. And on purpose. Dopamine doesn't survive because dopamine wants you to keep going to get the things you want, right? So dopamine is the feeling you get when you achieve the thing you want to achieve or find the thing you're looking for. That's why love at first sight is not a thing. So, you know, it's like, oh, we went on our first date and I'm telling you it was love. I'm like, no, it's dopamine. Because you're like, you dreamed of a person. You projected that dream on this person. You're like, you are the one. No, no, no, no, no, no. Just. Just a vision. So it's the wrong feeling. It's just dopamine. Endorphins. Endorphins don't really have a role in survival anymore. They used to be. Endorphins are. They're a chemical that mask physical pain. So when you're out hiking, looking for food, or you kill the leopard, now you need to carry it back. And you and your muscles hurt and it's heavy. Well, endorphins keep you going. And they literally mask physical pain. That's what they do. It's a survival thing. We have no survival need for endorphins anymore. We just go to the supermarket. But everybody who's done exercise knows what an endorphin rush is. And it feels amazing. And you feel like you keep running forever. And this is the best. Oh, my God, this is the best. And then a few hours later, you're in pain. The pain comes just later.
- [15:35]
A
Yes.
- [15:36]
B
So the difference is. But then you have. But endorphins and dopamine are selfish. You don't need anybody's help to get them. Set your goals, achieve your goals, go for a run, do heavy exercise. You don't need anybody's help. They're antisocial or unsocial. Right? So when we pursue dopamine. Dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, we don't actually need anybody. That's why we have oxytocin and serotonin.
- [15:56]
A
That's where you need someone else.
- [15:58]
B
Those are pro social when they fire for good reasons and bad reasons in this modern day and age, but when they're done for the right reasons, it's pro social. So when you go see your son or daughter graduate, your son and daughter are walking across the stage receiving their diploma, pouring with serotonin. Serotonin is the feeling of accomplishment. It's the feeling of pride. Right? And they're walking across the stage with their chest out. I did this. And it's amazing, right? But their parents sitting in the audience are having the same burst of serotonin, feeling equally as proud. That's my kid. And that's serotonin. You get the reward for coaching somebody, parenting somebody, supporting somebody, helping somebody, watching them achieve and sharing in their achievement. Right? It's our achievement. And that's why people give thank you speeches. I couldn't have done this without God, my parents, my coaches, my w. Who had it's. They're sharing. They're sharing the recognition that I can't achieve alone. And then oxytocin, the magical one, which is unicorns and rainbows. Mushy, mushy. Love, love, right? And oxytocin comes from many, many reasons. And you can get it many ways. Physical touch gives you oxytocin, but doing something for someone with no expectation of anything in return gives you oxytocin. An act of kindness.
- [17:19]
A
And that's what that guy you, the Surgeon General.
- [17:21]
B
That's what he did. The surgeon General. He does something nice for somebody else with no expectation of anything. And he felt good. He felt incredibly good. And the best thing about oxytocin is when you have it in your body, all it does, it makes you want to be nicer. It's Mother Nature's way of trying to get us to look after each other. And so when people don't serve, when they don't give to others, they might be consumed with dopamine, which is exciting. The problem is dopamine is addictive because you only feel good in the moment of the achievement, then you keep kneading, which is why the drug. You only feel good when the drug is in your. In your system. And then when it's not in your system, you got to get it. Same with dopamine. Got to keep it. I got to keep moving the goal post. Okay, I'll feel good when I hit this goal post. Nope, move the goalpost. I feel good if I make my second million, my third million, my fourth million. This many followers, that many followers, this many hits, that many hits, this many likes. Nope. You'll feel good for a second, it'll pass, and you'll have to move the goalpost again. And the thing that I've learned this is a. You should pursue something. You should have some sort of ambition, and I don't care what it is. You define your life however you want to define it. I want to have a family. I want to start my own business. Right. And once you've got there, once you've reached your goalpost, you have to say to yourself, I've won. I'm not going to move the goal posts anymore, because if I keep moving the goal posts, I'm never going to be satisfied.
- [18:49]
A
Then what do you do for the rest of your life if you win the goal early?
- [18:52]
B
No, it's nothing to do with the goal early. Now you've got the thing that you wanted, and now you get to design a life that you want, irrespective. You don't have to pursue winning anymore. The win has happened. You can look back at the goalpost and be like, I did the main thing I wanted. I did it. So whether it's. Whether it's the Olympics or starting a family or starting a business, whether it succeeds or fails, right? I did it. And now I'm going to design a life that I want to live beyond. And it's relative to however anybody else wants to define the win.
- [19:32]
A
Do you feel like you've Gotten the.
- [19:33]
B
Win for yourself I've had to learn. It's a lesson that I learned this year. And it's a friend of mine who said it to me because it was Teddy Roosevelt who said comparison is the thief of joy. And I love the way he put that. The thief of joy, it steals joy. If you keep comparing yourself to other people and what they've achieved, that act of comparison literally will steal joy from you. You will never be satisfied with what you have because you will always find somebody who's richer, better looking, got a nicer house, a net, better car, a better looking girlfriend or boyfriend, better vacations, whatever it is, 100% of the time. 100% of the time. And the metrics are completely like. If you and I started comparing our metrics to each other, right? If I looked at your podcast audience views, I'd be like, I'm a failure. Lewis. He, like, blows me out of the water, I'm a failure. But if I change the metric to LinkedIn followers, who's your daddy? I got you crushing it. Yeah, I'm crushing you, right? Oh, but let's make it book sales or let's make it intellect, household income. And like, I can feel depressed or I can feel elated just by simply changing where I'm looking.
- [20:51]
A
That's exhausting, right?
- [20:52]
B
And so I think what ends up happening is we focus on the one that is competitive. Well, I'm gonna get more followers than Lewis. I'll show him. And I go ahead, I'm like, yahtzee. But if I just look over here, I'm a loser again. And I think that's what I mean by winning, right? Which is. Which is I kept changing what I was looking at. I would be, I'm like, I'm doing great. And then I'd change what I'm looking at or change who I'm looking at. I'm like, ugh. You know, and it was a. It was a friend of mine who said to me, simon, you've won. Stop it, stop it. Like, he won.
- [21:28]
A
That's something you learned this year?
- [21:30]
B
Just this year.
- [21:30]
A
Really? Yeah. And how old are you now?
- [21:32]
B
51.
- [21:33]
A
51.
- [21:34]
B
Yeah. So you feel like you look older than me.
- [21:37]
A
You look great, by the way. That's the first thing I said, man, you got the fitted shirt.
- [21:40]
B
It's just the shirt. It's a well cut shirt.
- [21:42]
A
So do you feel like in the last, I don't know, three decades since you've been in kind of the, you know, school, working world, business world that you've always been jumping from comparison to comparison versus.
- [21:55]
B
I think we all go through phases. I think. I think there are times where I make no comparisons and I'm very satisfied. And there are times, for whatever reason, bad night's sleep, feeling a little insecure.
- [22:06]
A
Yeah.
- [22:06]
B
It sneaks in.
- [22:07]
A
Why is this person.
- [22:08]
B
It sneaks in. It sneaks in.
- [22:09]
A
Yeah.
- [22:10]
B
It sneaks in.
- [22:10]
A
I'm a smart guy. I should have this. Yeah. Why can't I create this? Or I've been working for so long. Why isn't it here yet?
- [22:15]
B
It sneaks in. Yeah. I think it's unavoidable, and that's why this. I don't. I don't actually believe in winning or losing. I mean, you know that about.
- [22:22]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [22:23]
B
I think it's a rhetorical trick. It's a rhetorical trick. It's another way of saying, just be grateful you're fine.
- [22:33]
A
So if you feel like. I mean, I guess so. Your friend told you this year, listen, you've already won.
- [22:38]
B
Yeah. And again, it's a rhetorical trick, which.
- [22:40]
A
You don't care about winning or losing, but you've already created what you wanted to do.
- [22:46]
B
I set out to contribute to the world, and I made strategic decisions that my contribution would be bigger than me.
- [22:56]
A
And it has been based.
- [22:57]
B
So, for example, people who come up with ideas, they put a little TM on whatever they call their idea, always on their website. Trademark. Little trademark. Which basically means don't touch. This is mine. Mine. I want everybody to know it's mine.
- [23:18]
A
I own this idea.
- [23:18]
B
I own this idea. It's my ip. Everybody knows what IP is. Right. And I never did that. You'll never see a TM on the term golden circle. You never see a TM on the concept of why, and you'll never see a TM on the physical drawing of the golden circle. Do I technically own all of those intellectual properties? Of course. Right. Usage. You own it just with usage. But I never put a TM in it because I cared more that people used the idea than knew where it came from. And people do use the idea and not know where it comes from. And I don't pursue anybody who uses it without crediting you. Without crediting. I don't care. Because credit wasn't the thing I was in pursuit of. It was impact that it was I was in pursuit of. So I made strategic choices to help drive impact rather than to help drive listeners.
- [24:11]
A
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- [26:18]
B
I don't judge anybody's choices for their own lives. And as we said before, there's always a cost. The question is the cost worth it to you? So for me, the cost came in I probably could have made more money. I probably could have who knows what, right? And that wasn't. That was fine. That was for me, that was a worthwhile cost, you know, because I was driven more by impact.
- [26:50]
A
Yes. And was there any price you've paid that looking back, it wasn't worth it? You're like, was that really worth it for that many years or this much time or this much stress thinking about this one thing.
- [27:02]
B
Yeah. So I guess the question is, does you have any regrets? Yes. The simple answer is I do. I don't have regrets for mistakes. I have regrets for repeating mistakes.
- [27:13]
A
What was the biggest mistake you repeated?
- [27:15]
B
One of the biggest mistakes is I trusted somebody I shouldn't have trusted because they knew more than I did and I doubted my gut and said, well, they've got more experience than me. I have to trust them. And then I tried to fire them and they talked me out of it. And then I continue to do business with this person who continued to screw me over and over again. Really? And there he is. A taker. He's an. He's an astonishing taker. And.
- [27:43]
A
How long was that going on?
- [27:45]
B
For a long time.
- [27:46]
A
Like years? Decades.
- [27:48]
B
Years. Years. Years.
- [27:50]
A
So you regret not changing course?
- [27:53]
B
I should have trusted my gut the first time and ended the. The relationship.
- [27:58]
A
You're known for your brilliance, your intellect, your idea, critical idea generation, solving problems. This is one of the main things you're known for. You are the modern intellect that people go to to pay a ton of money to help them solve problems, to speak and influence people and democracy, capitalism versus communism. But how do we make things happen in the world better? This is who you are.
- [28:23]
B
I know. Silly, isn't it?
- [28:25]
A
It's not silly. But I'm just curious. What do you think was something that you lacked for your own self to be able to see the situation in front of you in order to make.
- [28:37]
B
A better decision for yourself in that particular case?
- [28:40]
A
Yeah.
- [28:40]
B
Self doubt. Self doubt. Nothing short of. I'm not good at that. That person is experienced. I should trust them. Other people said I should trust them. I don't trust them, but I should trust them. So I'm going to trust them because everybody said I should trust them even though my guts. I don't trust them. And when I came to the realization like this person is not trustworthy, I'm going to fire them and I don't want them helping me anymore. And I tried to and they talked me out of it.
- [29:11]
A
Wow.
- [29:12]
B
I wasn't smart enough on how to change a contract.
- [29:15]
A
Is it smart? Is it about being. Because this is the thing. You're extremely smart. But is it.
- [29:19]
B
I have a type of smarts, right?
- [29:20]
A
You have a type of.
- [29:21]
B
I don't have all smarts. Sure, I have some. Some smarts.
- [29:24]
A
What is the skill needed for you to reach a new level of intelligence? Let's say? So that you don't repeat these things in the future.
- [29:33]
B
So. So the. The. The. I think the. That's a great. It's a great framing. The. It was the. What I should have done. I was afraid of setting myself. I was afraid of not having that kind of support. I was afraid of not knowing what to do without this person. I was afraid that I wasn't smart enough or didn't know how to navigate this industry without this person that's by my side. And what I should have done is just. It's like. It's like. It's like when you're sitting on the couch and you're overweight and all you do is watch TV and eating ice cream for every meal. At some point you go, I gotta get into shape. And you make the decision to get into shape. And the thing you didn't expect is how much it hurts. Painful. How much it hurts to start getting into shape. Once you start, it gets easier. But to start to get into shape really hurts. And I think I sat on that couch fearing the pain of the sh. Of getting extracted from this. And if I had to do it all over again, I would put myself in the pain and I would go ask somebody else for help.
- [30:51]
A
Something you said earlier on is that you love ideas and people with ideas that make your head hurt. Yeah.
- [30:59]
B
True.
- [31:00]
A
What makes your heart hurt?
- [31:02]
B
I think this opens a whole can of worms that my ex girlfriend would say is the problem. I'm too. I'm too. In my head. I think you just solved all the problems. What makes my heart hurt?
- [31:17]
A
Or do you allow things. Do you allow your heart to hurt?
- [31:20]
B
Of course I hate. I don't like bullies. I was never bullied as a kid, so it's not like you're standing up for. It's not some childhood thing. I just don't like it when the strong pick on the weak. That doesn't mean they have to help them, but they don't have to pick on them, you know? And like, I've been in meetings where somebody's being a bully, and I know. I know what it is. They're insecure. They're compensating. They were bullied themselves. You're supposed to show some empathy. I can't. I, like, really upsets me.
- [31:59]
A
Yeah.
- [31:59]
B
I'd be like, why don't we let somebody else talk now, Steve, you know?
- [32:05]
A
All right.
- [32:05]
B
Thank you, Julie. I think Lewis is trying to say something, you know, I can't help myself.
- [32:11]
A
You care about fairness.
- [32:12]
B
I. I care about fairness, yeah.
- [32:14]
A
Yeah.
- [32:14]
B
I think it's an ADHD thing. Somebody told me that ADHD kids have an over exaggerated sense of fairness.
- [32:20]
A
Interesting.
- [32:20]
B
Yeah. Who knows?
- [32:22]
A
So that's something that makes your heart hurt.
- [32:24]
B
I mean, heart hurt.
- [32:26]
A
Do you feel connected to your heart a lot?
- [32:28]
B
I probably could work on that.
- [32:30]
A
It's not if I could or should or right or wrong. I'm just curious.
- [32:34]
B
Better than I was. I think there's room for improvement.
- [32:36]
A
Sure. What do you think is possible for you, Simon, if you were able to trust your heart more rather than your head?
- [32:45]
B
I trust my gut. I mean, with the one exception that I'm telling you about, I'm pretty good at trusting my gut. Um, and it might take me a couple iterations to be able to articulate it or figure out how to say it to other people, but I'm pretty good at trusting my gut. It's not always right, but, you know, it's done me. Okay. And I think a lot of. A lot of people who we look to for guidance will offer very similar advice. Trust your gut. You know, and I think we have to understand what gut is. Gut is the. It's your limbic brain. It's not actually your stomach. It's where all your values exist. It's where your beliefs exist. And the limbic brain controls all of our feelings, it controls all of our behavior, but it doesn't control language, which is why it's hard to put our feelings into words. It's why we use analogies and metaphors all the time. It's hard to express anger, it's hard to express love, it's hard to express our feelings. It's hard to express frustration. Right. And so we use analogies and metaphors, or sometimes we just say stupid things, or we use, you know, banal tropes. We send memes to each other because somebody else has said it better. You know, we send. We send quotes that we saw online because this person perfectly captures what I've been trying to tell you. Right.
- [34:07]
A
Yeah.
- [34:07]
B
So that's what we do. And so to have a story, I think you should you. Before you can trust your gut, you have to have a clear sense of what your values are. You have to have a clear sense of what you believe in. Because otherwise I'm not sure your gut is a good compass.
- [34:26]
A
Gosh, it's so interesting you're saying this because we're going back to something else you talked about, which is the skill of conflict resolution. Most people haven't been taught the skills in conflict resolution. You said the first thing is Listening. We're in a world where most people aren't listening. They just want to get their.
- [34:41]
B
We're in a broadcast culture.
- [34:42]
A
They want to broadcast their feelings, but they don't know how to express feelings, which I think is another skill is learning how to express your feelings and emotions without throwing up on everyone and demeaning people or calling names or screaming.
- [34:56]
B
At someone, calling for their. Canceling whatever it is, everything. It's all emotional.
- [34:59]
A
And. And I think the third thing that you just said, the people, correct me if I'm wrong. People who usually scream the loudest sometimes aren't even clear what their values are.
- [35:12]
B
That's true.
- [35:13]
A
They, like, they think they know what a value is, maybe, or they just see that's unjust or I don't like that because that happened to me and I don't agree with that. Or I'm.
- [35:21]
B
Well, I think. I think that you. What we see. What we see in our country. Our country is a ship without a rudder and has been for many years. This is not a Republican or Democrat thing. Under both Republicans and Democrats, we've been kind of like out at sea, kind of just going with the wind. And we can probably trace it to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union, where we knew who we were and we knew who we were against.
- [35:47]
A
Who were we and who were we against then and who are we now and who are we against?
- [35:52]
B
And unfortunately, there's a great irony in this, right, which is America without competition is a monopoly and monopolies. As capitalists, we don't like monopolies, right? Because we know monopolies stifle competition. They know we're not good for the consumer, not good for the employee. We don't like monopolies. We like viable competitors because we think competition. This is our fundamental belief in Adam Smith economics. We fundamentally believe that competition is good for the consumer and good for the employee, and it's good for society. And so in America without a competitor is not a great America. Right? And I think we've been pretty rudderless and I'm uncomfortable with this, but we need competition. It's called an enemy. But we really need a peer or greater than peer competitor.
- [36:38]
A
Why do we need competition?
- [36:40]
B
Because a competitor in the most basic, simple way helps, you know, the things you stand for. It's kind of like you're in business, you sometimes have to look at design. What's the design of this mug? What's the design of this website? And you don't really know what you want until you see it. You know, I don't want that.
- [37:03]
A
Yeah, I don't want that or I like this.
- [37:04]
B
You don't know until you can see it and then it's obvious. But you couldn't give anybody the instructions to get you to that and not do that. And so it's really annoying for the people who show you stuff because you make them do all this work for you and to go, absolutely. Not that I know that. Right. But sometimes you have to see it to know it, right? Yes. And like people can always come to me like do you want this or this? Like I don't know, show me and I'll tell you. Let me hear it and I'll tell you which song I like better. Let me taste it and I'll tell you which meal I like better. Like I have to try it, see it, touch it to know it. Right. And I think that the easiest way to know your values is to see the thing that stands in the way of your values. And so you know what you stand for when you can see the thing standing in the way. Now there's a nuance here which is really important, which is truly having vision and belief is you see the quote unquote enemy or the competitor as the thing standing in the way of you getting the thing that you want. But simply having an enemy being against things is really easy to rile people up and really easy to get them going. But what's beyond that wall? What's beyond that obstacle? So let's take a commercial example. Apple used to stand for the individual creative freedom. You know, that's what it stood for. And it didn't like incumbency, status quo or slow corporate bleh. Right. So when Apple started, the thing standing in the way of them advancing their vision was IBM. Well, IBM became a non thing anymore. And then the thing standing in the way of them becoming their thing was Microsoft. Hi, I'm a Mac, I'm a PC. And then you can see the values remain the same.
- [38:53]
A
Great commercials.
- [38:54]
B
But the obstacles to them achieving their values, the status quo, the norm, the anti creativity, they could easily keep changing who the competitor was. But the vision remained the same. What was beyond that competitor remained the same. It's very tempting to have the competitor, to have the enemy, but not know what's beyond the wall. Because it's very exciting, right? And so like be careful what you wish for because what happens if that enemy goes away? And now you're like, and now what?
- [39:22]
A
Now what do we do?
- [39:22]
B
Right. And you can see it in our nation, we're a nation in clearly not knowing who we are or what we stand for. We don't know who our competitors are. Right where it's not communists versus democracies and capitalists anymore, because now it's all a mess, right? So that's not it. It's something else. And you can see in the population people desperately pursuing something to give them the feeling of belonging. So on the left or the right of the political aisle. So whether it's anti Israel on one side of the political spectrum, it's anti Vax on the other side of the political spectrum, you can see people glomming onto something that is exciting. And they get all the feels. They have create community, they create friendship. They have a sense of purpose. They've never felt like this before. They're making friends. They feel like their life matters.
- [40:22]
A
People understand them.
- [40:23]
B
They feel understood in their circles. It's amazing. Until it goes away. And then what? And so you can see kind of people bouncing from thing to thing. And none of those things last for very long. I mean, they could be measured in many years. They could measure in months or years. But it's not lifetimes like communism versus capitalist democracy. That was generations that was worthy of going to war. You know, it was also the thing that made the left and the right come together, which is why we hate each other. But we hate that more. Let's stand together against that common enemy.
- [41:04]
A
We don't have that anymore.
- [41:05]
B
We don't have that anymore.
- [41:06]
A
It's all against each other.
- [41:07]
B
It's all against each other. Which is how empires fall. Empires fall from within. You know, the empires collapse as. It's an act of suicide. Not. Not. Wow. Yeah, so. So empires collapse from within where we go at each other's throats and our enemies are just loving it. And you can see it now, whether our, you know, whether it's the Iranians or the Russians or whoever, North Koreans, whoever. Screwing around with our social media, they're not inventing any conflict. They're amplifying the conflicts that exist. They're finding the things that we're at each other's throats for. And they're screwing around on social media to turn the volume way up. They're not creating anything. They're amplifying all of it. And so we hate each other and we're at each other's throats. And all the noise in social media is not even all of our own noise. It's agitators. And then you realize.
- [42:00]
A
But doesn't that Bring people together too. Doesn't it also help create more condition?
- [42:04]
B
If we can recognize that that's happening, if we can recognize the group that's doing it to us and why they're doing it to us and what they don't like about us that we should be standing up for, which I don' Anybody can actually articulate very clearly right now. And we haven't had a world leader, we haven't had a president who's done it since probably the collapse of the Berlin Wall. You know, every Republican and Democrat has kind of gone insular. Our presidents used to talk about world peace. Yeah, they don't talk about world peace anymore. It sounds corny and cheesy. There's no existential threat to the United States. But there is. That's the thing. It's just not easy to understand.
- [42:39]
A
Wow, what's the problem with capitalism then?
- [42:43]
B
So capitalism is good, but not the version we have. Adam Smith. Capitalism, which is competition, is ultimately good for the customer and the employee. And the baker who selfishly wants to make the best bread and the butcher who selfishly wants to make the best meat, and the dairy farmer who selfishly wants to make the best cheese gives you the best sandwich. Right. That's. That's how, that's how capitalism is supposed to be.
- [43:13]
A
How have we gotten away from that? It.
- [43:16]
B
You know, you blame the 70s and 80s, you blame the rise of Milton Friedman, who's an economist who theorized, Theorized that the responsibility of business was to maximize profit within the bounds of the rules and the bounds of law. Well, what happened to ethics? The law is a very low bar. Sure, right. Ethics is a much higher bar. Right. Like there's a recent thing that's happening now. I think it's happening in Texas where I've forgotten the guy's name. Where he's pointed out, like, the exact same products in India or Europe or Canada have fewer and healthier ingredients than the exact same product in the United States.
- [43:53]
A
Kali and Casey means. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And vicarious.
- [43:56]
B
Ours are filled with chemicals.
- [43:58]
A
Yeah.
- [43:59]
B
Where there's like a candy bar. Like the exact same candy bar. Like if I eat a Kit Kat in England and I eat a Kit Kat here, A Kit Kat here is made with partially hydrogenated oils, palm oil and high fructose corn syrup. There, it's made with butter and sugar, so it's less bad. And when Kellogg's was interviewed, like, wtf? Their answer was, we obey all local laws. Like, really? That's your go to. Your go to is we follow the Law, like that's, that's what you're going to stick with? What about ethics?
- [44:30]
A
Yeah.
- [44:30]
B
What about civic responsibility? What about, maybe it's okay to lose a little margin to be good for society, but you're going to go with, until they change the laws, we're just going to follow the laws.
- [44:42]
A
Right.
- [44:42]
B
Like what, a low bar to go through life?
- [44:44]
A
Sure.
- [44:45]
B
Right. I mean, can you imagine cheating on your girlfriend? And she brings it up to you. Be like, it's not against the law.
- [44:49]
A
Right, Right.
- [44:51]
B
Can't cheat on your wife. That's against the law.
- [44:52]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [44:53]
B
We would be together, cheating, girlfriend, not against the law.
- [44:55]
A
Right.
- [44:56]
B
We didn't sign a marriage contract yet. I don't owe you anything. Low bar. Yeah, low bar. Right. And so I think the rise. Adam Smith. Capitalism, which is the capitalism that made America great, doesn't. Is not really existent anymore. We have a Jack Welch, Milton Friedman. Capitalism, where we prioritize the shareholder over the customer and the employee, where we prioritize the quarter over the survival of the business, where short termism became everything and shareholder supremacy became everything. We started using people to manage the books. We use mass layoffs to meet our quarterly or annual projections. We're profitable, just not as profitable as we promised Wall Street. So you get to lose your job. Sorry, nothing personal. It's just business. And so capitalism is very broken. And I think the danger is that people are trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater. They're trying to throw out all capitalism because the system that we're in really is screwed up. But capitalism is awesome. This version of capitalism is terrible.
- [46:01]
A
Do you think we can.
- [46:02]
B
This version of capitalism is run by finance bros who speak in tongues that I definitely can't understand them. And by the way, I don't think they can understand themselves most of the time that it's. And the stock market. The stock market was invented so that the average working American could partake in the wealth of a nation. Right. That was why the stock and the stock market exists for the middle class. The middle class is barely in the stock market anymore. It is now the playground of the 1%. And they are using our national institutions for their own personal gain. And then, I mean, just talk to any, talk to any finance bro. Talk to any of them and you say, what societal good are you doing? What contribution are you making to society? They all say the same nonsense. We're contributing to the economy and we're helping provide jobs. Okay, then why are you okay with mass layoffs if you care so much? About job production. You care so much about job production, why aren't you fighting tooth and nail to make layoffs only a last resort, not a first line of defense, right? It's all rationalizing. It's just personal profit. That's all it is, right?
- [47:22]
A
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- [49:54]
B
Not first, not first. Layoffs. I'm not against them as long as they're existential. How many CEOs of public companies who missed their quarterly results? They're profitable. It's not like they're losing money.
- [50:09]
A
Right.
- [50:10]
B
They promised X percent and they made X minus 4%. And they. They. They're. They're getting battered by the analyst class whose bonuses depend on not the success of your company. Right, Right. That's the problem. It's not. You're making an existential argument. I'm making we're not as profitable as we promised argument. Not to mention the fact, fine, let's stick with I don't even care we're not as profitable as we promised. Fine. Let's just go with that. Right? As opposed to just saying, ah, we missed our numbers. Oh, well, we'll do better next time, guys. Like, let's figure out what we did. Let's try again. Right? How many of them have gone and said, look, huge pressure on me from Wall Street. Huge pressure on me. I don't even think you understand the pressure on me. They're pushing me to do layoffs. They tell me I gotta cut expenses by 10%. I don't want to. So I want you all to go, hey, my senior leaders. I want you to go to all of your divisions. I want you to go to your front lines, go to your junior people, your mid rank, your middle management, and tell them this. We have to cut 10%. And I don't want to do it with people. Find me 10%. Go find me 10%. Because if we can't find 10%, the pressure's overwhelming. I might have to cut heads, and I don't want to. How many CEOs have done that? How many CEOs have asked their frontline teams to help them?
- [51:36]
A
No. None. None.
- [51:37]
B
No. It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. We look at the entire function of human resources. Your average chro gets bonused by how efficiently they did the layoffs. Incorrect. Incorrect. An HR person is supposed to be at the executive table as the voice of the employee. And when the CEO, or you, more likely the CFO goes, I think we need to cut off 10% of our workforce, blah, blah, blah, that Chr is supposed to say, don't you touch my people. You find that money somewhere else.
- [52:10]
A
Interesting.
- [52:11]
B
That's not what's happening. They go, aye, aye, sir. Layoff's done efficiently. No, the whole thing's screwed up. No wonder people are upset. No wonder young people are voting for populists on the left or the right, whether it's Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump. I understand the rise of populism. It's because the system isn't working for the average working American on both sides of the aisle. That's why we see a rise of populism, because we reject the system that we're currently living in, what do you.
- [52:39]
A
Think would be the perfect system to live in or a better system to live in?
- [52:42]
B
There's no perfect system.
- [52:43]
A
Right. What's a better system?
- [52:45]
B
What did Churchill say? Democracy. What do you say? Democracy is a terrible form of government, but it's better than all the others, right? You know, the worst form of government, but it's better than all the rest. Whatever he said, you know, I mean.
- [52:55]
A
Someone'S always going to be sad, suffering, hurt, losing opportunity.
- [52:58]
B
Churchill said it best. Right? The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of communism is the equal sharing of miseries.
- [53:11]
A
So which one do you want?
- [53:12]
B
Right. Do you want equal sharing of miseries that are unequal sharing of blessings? And we have opted for an unequal sharing of blessings. That's just the system we've picked. That's what. There's some who do really well, there's some who will do not really well. You could argue that it's unfair. You might be right. But the most important thing is the middle. The most important thing is the middle class. The bigger the middle class, the more stable a society is. When the middle class starts to dissipate and starts to go away and you start having the haves and the have nots, and the gap between the haves and the have nots gets wider and wider. Wider. In 100% of those times, what you get is dun, dun, dun, dun revolution every single time. Because we don't particularly have problems with people making more money than us. This goes back to anthropology as well. It's the anthropology of leaders. Have we ever talked about this?
- [54:04]
A
I don't think so.
- [54:05]
B
So we are social animals, right? And for thousands and thousands and thousands of years we lived in tribes that were rarely bigger than about 150 people. We only started farming about 10 or 12,000 years ago. And we can start to sustain populations larger than about 150, 200 people. Right. So we lived as a subsistence hunters, gatherers for tens of thousands of years in populations no bigger than 150ish people. Okay, but there's some very practical problems, right, which is what if you bring food, austere conditions, you're a hunter and you bring food back to the tribe, we're all hungry, we all rush in to eat. Well, if you're built like, you're built like an athlete and I'm the artist of the family, and we're all shoving our way into the front, I'm going to get an elbow in the face. This is not a good system of cooperation because at night when you're sleeping and there's a saber toothed tiger, I'm not waking you. So this doesn't work. So we evolved into hierarchical animals. We're constantly assessing and judging who's alpha. And when we assess, and it's a relative scale, when we assess that someone is alpha to us, we voluntarily step back and allow our alphas to eat first. Our alphas get first choice of meat and first choice of mate. And we see this in society all the time, right? Like if you're senior, someone will go get your coat for you in the other room. If you're junior, you get your own coat, right? There are perks. There are perks all the time. And we don't mind, we don't mind our alphas getting preferential treatment. There's not a single person on the planet who is morally offended by somebody more senior in the organization getting a higher salary. It offends no one. We might think they're an idiot, but we're not morally offended. But the group is not stupid. We don't give our alphas all of the advantages for free. There's a deep seated social expectation that when danger threatens the tribe, the person who's actually better fed, who's actually genetically stronger, is going to be the one to rush towards the danger, to protect us.
- [56:13]
A
Many of us protect us, which is.
- [56:14]
B
Why we gave them first choice of mate. Because if they get killed, we need their genes in the gene pool. We're not stupid. We don't have any problem with a CEO making a ton more money than us, so long as they're willing to sacrifice their interests, their short term interests, for our survival. And when we watch CEOs laying people off to protect their own bonuses. They have literally violated the deep seated social responsibility of what the responsibility of a leader is, which is to protect the tribe. We don't have a problem with you making more money, but that money doesn't come for free. You earn it by putting your interest second for the group. And what we've watched for decades now is a CEO class sacrifice their people to protect themselves. Never sacrifice themselves to protect their people. And that's why you have an anti capitalist movement right now. That's why we have a pro populist movement. That's why we're angry at the ruling classes because they have violated their social responsibility to look after us.
- [57:22]
A
You're not talking about. If there is 1% of the organization that is not showing up on time, not doing their job and consistently not improving, it's okay to let those people.
- [57:34]
B
Go if they're uncoachable. You don't lay somebody off just because they have substandard performance. You don't lay somebody off just because they're, they're difficult to be around. You coach them. You know this of course, right.
- [57:46]
A
You're more talking about like okay, we just need 10 gone.
- [57:49]
B
I need to, I need to, I need my numbers back. I need you, son. It's the first choice. Sure, right. And then they're surprised that they have morale issues that last for years beyond the short term financial bump. They got idiots. I mean these things, this not rocket scientists.
- [58:04]
A
Right?
- [58:05]
B
Like I'm not smart enough to run a multi billion international, you know, public company. Which is proof that that part is really easy. Because if I understand it, I know they understand.
- [58:16]
A
Sure.
- [58:16]
B
That means they must be ignoring it, right? Because they're definitely smarter than I am.
- [58:20]
A
So what needs to change in order for that to start to take place in big corporations?
- [58:27]
B
We need new leaders. We need new leaders with an ethical compass. We need new leaders who are willing to make change even if a law doesn't require them to make it. We need leaders who use layoffs existentially only and as a last resort, not a first line of defense. We need leaders who build businesses to contribute to society, not just to make money. Where we throw out Milton Friedman, we literally throw him out and say he was wrong. The purpose of a business is not just to make money within the bounds of the law. The purpose of the business is to contribute to something larger than itself. And if you are good at doing that, you will make lots of money. I like to think of a business like a car Right. We don't buy cars simply so we can buy gas. That is not the purpose of a car, simply to get more gas. Right. The purpose of a car is to go somewhere. And what do you need to make that car go gas? Money. The purpose of a company is to go somewhere. The purpose of a company is to move a needle, contribute, make my life a little better, a little easier, a little more fun, whatever it is, a little more convenient. I don't care. Contribute to my life in some way, shape or form, even if it's just to make me smile. And if you can do that, I will give you money. And that money will fuel you to do that even more. And the CEO is the person who's sitting in the driver's seat looking out the front window, not the gas pedal, not the gas dial, and going, we're going there. And the CFO is the one watching the gas dial, going, okay, slow down. Go faster.
- [59:56]
A
Move.
- [59:56]
B
Okay, you're fine. The CEO should be looking out the front door, out the front window. But too often we have CEOs obsessed with the gas dial, the gas gauge. Right? And all the people like, I like where you're going. Can I join? Those are called employees. So we've completely forgotten why companies exist. They're supposed to make life a little better, a little easier, a little more fun, a little more convenient, whatever it is.
- [60:19]
A
Right?
- [60:20]
B
And the competition is who can do.
- [60:23]
A
It better in a capitalistic way.
- [60:24]
B
I always get all riled up whenever I come.
- [60:26]
A
See, I like it, though. I like it in a capitalistic society. I've heard you say you need competition.
- [60:31]
B
Yes, we like competition.
- [60:32]
A
We like competition because it drives innovation.
- [60:34]
B
Makes us better.
- [60:35]
A
Makes us better. You got to improve. You can't have a crappy.
- [60:37]
B
You know this. Go for a run by yourself. You run. You go for a run. In a race, you run faster.
- [60:43]
A
I ran my fastest turkey trot time last week, and I was like, it was a race. A race, or.
- [60:48]
B
You and I both know this. You go for a run, you just pick somebody, pretend, oh, yeah.
- [60:51]
A
Are you really going your fastest?
- [60:53]
B
And then you just run ahead of them and you pick somebody else and you run ahead of them.
- [60:55]
A
Exactly, exactly. But capitalism, you love.
- [60:59]
B
Yeah. I think capitalism is fantastic.
- [61:00]
A
And competition, we need.
- [61:02]
B
Correct.
- [61:04]
A
But kind of going back to the beginning.
- [61:05]
B
And by the way, communism doesn't work. We know that because people are greedy.
- [61:09]
A
Exactly. Yeah.
- [61:10]
B
Some are more equal than others.
- [61:11]
A
Exactly. It sounds like something that we're missing or something that gets lost in translation. Let's say in a capitalistic competitive world that is needed. Where communism doesn't work because people are greedy is collaboration.
- [61:25]
B
Yes.
- [61:26]
A
And also going back to the idea of friendship, friends collaborate in a non business way, but maybe also. But it's a collaboration of activities, of ideas, of words, shared values, of conversations, travel, whatever it is. You're experiencing life in a collaborative environment. Right?
- [61:46]
B
We're biologically engineered for it.
- [61:47]
A
Exactly.
- [61:48]
B
Yes.
- [61:49]
A
But when we live in a, you know, if you haven't. If you're a part of a company, maybe you've got friends within the company, but now there's competition because we are making money.
- [61:57]
B
Do you ever watch the great British baking show the Bake Off?
- [62:00]
A
I think I've seen clips, but not a whole.
- [62:02]
B
That is. That show is a metaphor for the way life should be. Okay? It is a competition. There are winners and losers. Somebody gets booted off every month, every week. And somebody gets Star Baker every single week. And they help each other. In fact, I was watching the final season, the final episode just this week, and they're competing to be start. They're committed to be the winner of the whole competition. And somebody was struggling and they said, will you help me? And the other guy came running over and said, absolutely. Really? They're competing to win, they're not competing to make the other person lose.
- [62:38]
A
I just got the chill there.
- [62:39]
B
Okay.
- [62:40]
A
You know, it's interesting when you're saying that, I don't mean to interrupt you, but something that just came to me is when I was a decathlete, as an athlete, where I can relate to this. Decathlon is 10 events in one event. Track and field.
- [62:53]
B
I know what decathlon.
- [62:54]
A
For those that don't know, I was.
- [62:55]
B
A big Daily Thompson fan back.
- [62:56]
A
Yeah, exactly. There you go. So the, there's a beauty to do the Kathlon, at least the way I was living in it. And you want to win and there's 10 events. You're trying to win at every event for whatever reason. When I got into the decathlon, it was one of the most beautiful experiences an athlete I've ever had because I may be better at the high jump than someone else, but I'm rooting for the other guy from that I'm trying to beat. Hey, you can get over this. Let me give you some tips and strategies. There might be someone who's better at the pole vault than me, who's cheering me on a lower height, trying to get over the bar and like, way to go. And here's where you can use my pole. You know, whatever it was like this beautiful thing.
- [63:37]
B
I've heard that about the decathlon. I don't know. I wonder what it is about the decathlon versus other sports. I think because it's so hard or because there's variety. I don't know what it is.
- [63:45]
A
I think it's so hard. And you're not going to be the best at every event. Yeah. You're not the best.
- [63:48]
B
And so you support each other.
- [63:50]
A
You might be the best at one or two of the 10 of the group that you're competing in of 20 guys you're competing against.
- [63:55]
B
Yeah.
- [63:56]
A
And you know how hard it is to. To get better at some of these technical events. So challenging. And I think there's a level of respect also with your competitor of like, man, he's a decathlete, too. I know how hard he's had to train on the high hurdles and the pole vault and the discus and the shot. It's like he just endures pain.
- [64:15]
B
Yeah.
- [64:15]
A
And it's like. So you kind of just respect. You want to beat him. But you were like, you build a brotherhood.
- [64:20]
B
Yeah.
- [64:20]
A
With your competitors.
- [64:21]
B
That makes sense to me.
- [64:22]
A
And.
- [64:23]
B
And that's the metaphor. Bake off. Or. Or decathlon.
- [64:26]
A
Exactly. And it's becoming your best. It's like, you may not beat the best guy, but did you get better? Yeah. And become your best and have PRs at these different events.
- [64:34]
B
And I think that's what it is. It's okay to compete to win, but you can't compete for the other person to lose. Yeah. And I think we've mistaken the two. And just look at our politics.
- [64:43]
A
Right.
- [64:43]
B
There used to be a time in our politics where 80% of the. Of the negotiating happened behind closed doors and 20% was for the cameras. Now it's 100% for the cameras. Right. And what they would do is they would come up with an agreement that both parties could go back to their constituents and say, we got what we wanted. Now, it's not enough to say, we got what we wanted. They also have to say, and they got nothing. And guess who loses? Us. Everyone. Everyone. Right. And so. And again, this is infinite games. Right. In a finite game where there's beginning, middle and end, sure, there's a winner and a loser, but in business or life, there's relationships. You can win without otherbody people. You can hit your numbers. You can beat your numbers. And it doesn't mean that the other company has to go into bankruptcy. 100%. Right. You can compete to win, but you cannot compete for the other person to Lose. And for some reason, in this modern day and age, it is not enough for us to win. We also want to ensure that the others around us lose. And that's nonsense. And. And this is why I say this is going right back in full circle where we started. This is why comparison's a thief of joy. Because it's not enough that your life is good. You want your life to be better than somebody else. You want somebody else to life to suffer so you can feel better. Why can't you just be happy with what you've got?
- [65:59]
A
Interesting.
- [65:59]
B
Why can't you just be grateful? Right? Okay, they have more money than you, but your kids are better.
- [66:04]
A
Interesting.
- [66:06]
B
We don't spend enough time. This is why the gratitude practice. It sounds so ooey, gooey, mushy, hippie dippy. But I swear, I swear you wake up in the morning or before you go to bed at night, especially if you've got somebody sleeping next to you and just say, can we spend a minute? Even if you do it by yourself, and just say five things we're grateful for, even if it's the same thing every night. I love our family. I love our home. I loved the dinner you made tonight for us. I loved that we went on vacation, and I love that we have a vacation coming up. And you realize very quickly, life's pretty good. But when we do the comparison game, all we focus on is the things that are missing. Can you imagine going to bed at night and talking about all the things I hate about my life and all the things that are lacking?
- [67:00]
A
Exhausting.
- [67:00]
B
But we'd all be depressed.
- [67:02]
A
Yeah. And people do it all the time.
- [67:04]
B
And we do it all the time. And, you know, one thing that I've done that's helped me. I have to have Instagram because I need to look at it for work. I mean, now. And then I deleted it. You can hide on an iPhone. You can hide an app from your. From anywhere on your phone. It's just hidden. And when you. You have to search for it to get it. And I took it out of the search suggestions, which you can do as well. So literally, it shows up nowhere unless I type in inst. And then it pops up. My use of Instagram has plummeted.
- [67:33]
A
Wow.
- [67:34]
B
Plummeted. Plummeted.
- [67:36]
A
Because it's just not accessible.
- [67:37]
B
Right. It's just, you know when you're just, like, looking at your phone because you're bored and you're just, like, swiping through the screen, you're like, click on Instagram. I'm not clicking on it. Instagram. And I'm not searching for it because I don't need it. Oh, and I've turned off all the notifications. That's a big problem.
- [67:49]
A
Yeah, I don't have that.
- [67:50]
B
I've turned off all my notifications, but just by not having it visible, I'm a happier person.
- [67:59]
A
Wow. When I got injured playing football, my whole world collapsed and my dream of being a professional athlete was gone. Just like that. I was broke, sleeping on my sister's couch, feeling sorry for myself. But at some point I had to make a choice. Stay stuck in that pain or embrace a no Bull mentality and build something new. And that decision changed my life. We're all works in progress, but only you can decide to embrace the process of growing stronger inside and out. And no Bull is here to help. No Bull is a footwear brand for training and for daily life, built to support you in your pursuit of of physical, mental and emotional strength. And if you're in need of an extra push in the gym, you can do hard things with the no Bull outwork no Bull's first training shoe. And the no Bull All Day is the perfect shoe for everyday life. And whether I'm heading to the studio, running errands, or just staying on my feet all day, they're built for comfort, durability and that clean, versatile look. I am a big fan of the All Days. I'm wearing them right now actually, and they're so comfortable to walk around in. And I love that. Noel Bull isn't just a brand, it's it. No shortcuts, no excuses, just commitment to being better every single day. And that's what we're here to do on the School of Greatness as well. No Bull is offering our listeners an exclusive offer. 30% off your first order. Visit noullproject.com greatness for 30% off your entire order. That's www.n o b u l l p r o j e c t.com greatness for 30% off vacation season is nearly upon us, and this year treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve with Quince's high quality travel essentials at fair prices like lightweight shirts and shorts from $30 pants for any occasion and comfortable lounge sets. Pair it with premium luggage options and durable duffel bags to carry it all. The best part? All Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they partner directly with top factories, cutting out the cost of the middlemen and passing the savings on to us And I've been looking to upgrade my luggage for a while now. And Quint has so many great options. I love how clean their suitcase looks. Plus they're super sturdy and durable. And the best part is they're way more affordable than the other bags that are out there. For your next trip, treat yourself to the lux upgrades you deserve. From quints go to quints.com Louis for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Luis to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Louis I've thought about, I mean, I've thought about a few things in the last few months. I don't know if I want to do them, but I've thought about this. My dad never let us watch the news and so I don't watch the news today still.
- [70:55]
B
How lucky.
- [70:56]
A
But I also don't feel anxious and stressed about, like, day to day. Like, this is all happening, the world is collapsing. Like, it feels like that when you watch the news to me. And when I watch a clip here and there, I'm like, gosh, it just feels like there's so much bad happening, which there is. But I choose to look at the good happening and focus on the gratitude of the good and focus on how can I continue to improve the good or improve some of the bad, not focus on it as much. And the world is ending. But I've been thinking about the world's not ending.
- [71:24]
B
It is struggling, but it's not for sure. Yeah, yeah.
- [71:27]
A
But there, there's a lot of beauty as well. If you focus on the beauty. Sure, I think, But I've thought about getting a brand new phone number one. Because I get tons of like scam texts and calls all day long and I'm just like, so I have everything on mute on my phone, right? Already. Just because I don't want to get any calls, inbound notifications. So I've thought about getting a brand new number and just kind of putting like, I don't know, top 100 names that I need or something in there and just limiting distractions in general. And I thought about unfollowing everyone, which is kind of like a big thing on Instagram for me. Of like, oh, I don't know if I should do this.
- [72:05]
B
You just mute everyone.
- [72:06]
A
I could just, maybe I'll just do that just so I don't get.
- [72:08]
B
I've started muting people content of stuff.
- [72:09]
A
Right?
- [72:09]
B
I've started muting like tons of people.
- [72:11]
A
Yeah. Maybe keep following to that.
- [72:12]
B
Yeah, I don't want to offend it.
- [72:14]
A
That's the thing.
- [72:15]
B
Social currency.
- [72:15]
A
That's the thing. It's like, am I going to offend someone if I do that?
- [72:17]
B
Like, I've noticed, like, friends who, like, who haven't talked in a while unfollowed me.
- [72:20]
A
Like, what.
- [72:21]
B
Why am I following you then?
- [72:23]
A
Why is that?
- [72:24]
B
Because we're.
- [72:25]
A
Why do people do that?
- [72:26]
B
It's passive aggression.
- [72:28]
A
Why do people get hurt by someone unfollowing them?
- [72:30]
B
It's passive aggression, like not being invited to the birthday party. It's actively not. And that's telling everybody. I'm not inviting you to the birthday party. I'm having a birthday party. Lewis isn't invited. Just want Lewis to know. Hey, Lewis, you're not invited. My birthday party. Just want you to know. So it's. It's fine. But yeah, I think it is true. Just. Just mute everybody.
- [72:49]
A
Yeah, okay. Maybe that's a better thing. Just so I don't get updates of all this stuff, you know, or just don't open it.
- [72:54]
B
And always say no to notifications.
- [72:57]
A
Yeah.
- [72:57]
B
Allowed notifications. No, I have notifications turned on for text, phone call. And I think that's it. Yeah, every other notification for my. From my phone is turned off. Text and phone calls are the only thing that is allowed. And even phone calls don't ring. My phone doesn't buzz. There's no noise when that phone call comes in. And then I say, oh, I missed a call.
- [73:21]
A
And I call them back. Yeah, that's smart. It's wise.
- [73:24]
B
So basically the only thing. And I always have my ringer off. Always make sure it drives me too easy.
- [73:29]
A
I never have it on.
- [73:30]
B
But also the thing that I've been practicing is having my phone not near me. So you have your phone in your room?
- [73:36]
A
Yeah. Yours is over there.
- [73:37]
B
My phone is in the other room.
- [73:37]
A
Yeah. I turn mine on mute so I get no buzzing or nothing.
- [73:41]
B
But it's not mute. You should put it in AirPL. That's good because you still know that things are coming in.
- [73:47]
A
I don't hear it or feel it.
- [73:48]
B
But you know they're coming in when it's in. So when.
- [73:51]
A
That one of your videos that I saw of yours in the past.
- [73:53]
B
There's data on this.
- [73:54]
A
Was. Was you talking about.
- [73:56]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [73:57]
A
Phone, you know, on the table here, you know, or flipped up or flipped down or whatever it might be because you're still. You're. You're waiting for something.
- [74:04]
B
Sure.
- [74:05]
A
Right.
- [74:05]
B
So there's data on this. I'll get the numbers wrong, but you'll get the point right, which is when you have a phone on a desk with face up, you're. You're something. You're like distracted 70% of the time or something. It's like ridiculously high. If the phone is down, it goes to like 40%, but you're still, like, you're looking at it the whole time, you know, wondering what's coming in. If it's on and in your bag next to you, you're distracted. 10% of the time, you're still distracted.
- [74:31]
A
I believe that's in your bag. Yeah. It's crazy.
- [74:32]
B
So what I find is if you put it in, then you know nothing's coming.
- [74:37]
A
Or turn it off, turn it off.
- [74:38]
B
Or put in air main mode and leave it in another room. I do it all the time now, and I find it actually quite relaxing. Yeah, it's good because I know nothing's coming in. I don't even. It's not even near me.
- [74:46]
A
Yes, I usually leave it in my other room, but my fiance called me right before. But it's just. I usually leave it in my office at a whole other separate part.
- [74:55]
B
I hear the excuse.
- [74:57]
A
I mean, she was flying on a plane and I was like, she had got back to me in three hours.
- [75:00]
B
So I was like, ah, anyway, she's on a plane. But, you know, parents are the worst offenders of this. But there's schools that want to ban phones, and it's the parents that say.
- [75:09]
A
No, I think schools should ban phones.
- [75:11]
B
I think they should ban the phone as well. The parents are like, well, what if there's an emergency? Well, you call the office. They know where your kid is. Like when we were kids, they're like, you need to come to the office.
- [75:19]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [75:20]
B
You know, your grandmother, they called your office. That was it. You know, like, they just told you. The office. Like, we know how to. We know where the kid is all day. You know, number one. And number two, there's not emergencies. It's parents just calling and say, what time you want me to pick you up? You know, and so let the kids keep their phones in their lockers. I think they should, you know, but there should be no phones in a classroom. Yeah, none. They should be banned. It's parents who are the big. The big, big offenders. That's crazy. You know, I need to get a hold of my kid in case there's an emergency. How many emergencies you having per week?
- [75:48]
A
No, none.
- [75:49]
B
One a year, maybe. If you're lucky or unlucky.
- [75:52]
A
Right. Maybe it's close to zero and you just call the principal to call out.
- [75:55]
B
Yeah. The number of times I was called out of my classroom and in all of my junior high school and high.
- [75:59]
A
School life was maybe twice, I think never.
- [76:03]
B
Maybe twice.
- [76:04]
A
Never.
- [76:05]
B
Yeah.
- [76:05]
A
I don't think there was time for me. I mean, going back to the whole capitalism, competition and collaboration, do you feel like friends are more collaborators or more competitive with one another than in today's society when they're driven, when they see screaming in competition and fighting on tv?
- [76:26]
B
If you're insecure about something, you will find yourself feeling competitive with your friends. And I think that that is more a sign of something you're going through. I. We've all been there. I've definitely been competitive with friends.
- [76:38]
A
Really?
- [76:38]
B
Sure. Of course. It's because I'm not in a good space and their success is reminding me of the thing that I'm struggling with.
- [76:45]
A
So are you a good friend if you're competing with your friend?
- [76:48]
B
I think you're a good friend if you're open with your friend. What you're going through. Hey, can I talk to you for a minute? I'm going through some stuff, and I'm having feelings that are making me real uncomfortable. Like I'm getting jealous of your success. And that's screwed up because I'm so proud of you and so happy for you. Can I just talk to you about what I'm going through in my life? Because I don't think I'm in a good place if I'm having that feeling. You know, jealousy is a feeling like happy, sad, angry. And, you know, it's the same thing in relationships. Usually when we feel jealous, what we do is we demand that our partner change their behavior so we don't have.
- [77:20]
A
To deal with insecurities.
- [77:22]
B
Right. Like, how dare you? How dare you talk to your ex. How dare you. Look at that pretty barista. And so they're forcing you to change your behaviors. They don't have to do. As opposed to, hey, babe, I got really jealous when you called your ex. And I know you guys have been friends long before you met me. Can I just talk it through with you? I think I'm. I'm going through some stuff that. Can you just hear me out for a little bit right now? Then you may say, you know what? I'm going to talk to her less because I want to be supportive on you and your journey, but that's your choice to change your behavior. You know, in Support of your partner.
- [77:55]
A
Yes.
- [77:57]
B
But I think it's the same in work stuff. The ability to understand that jealousy is a feeling, and it's your feeling, and you need to be able to deal with your. And your insecurities. And you can't be mad at your friend for being successful. You can't be mad at your friend for achieving something that you wish you could achieve. But you can look at yourself and saying, am I not doing something or am I? And this is why we go back to what I said before, which is work towards the thing that you want to do, and then if you achieve it, accept that you won. Because that feeling of comparing yourself to your friends really goes down a lot. That's what happened to me.
- [78:39]
A
How do you feel, though, at this season of your Life? You're only 51, you're still very young, but you've accomplished so much on a big scale. You know, the books, the TED talks, the speaking, the business, the podcast. You know, you're around the most, you know, intelligent, successful people in the world. You've got powerful fr all these things. You've done it right. But how do you not look back and say, oh, my best days are behind me. Like, I've won, so I just, like, kind of just coast the rest of my life. No, no, no, no, no.
- [79:10]
B
So let me. So. So I think of my life. I think of my life like an iceberg, right? Which is when I was starting out, I had a vision of the world that could exist, but it didn't exist yet. So the whole iceberg was under the ocean. I could see it, but nobody else could see it. And so I was trying to describe what I saw, but people were like, I don't get it. And then a few people kind of understood what I was trying to say or the things that I was putting out in the world helped me articulate it. And so a bit of iceberg popped out, and people would be like, oh, I can see what you're trying to do here. That's amazing. And then they would help me because they saw what I was trying to build, because they saw what was above the ocean, but what I saw, what was beneath the ocean, constantly, like, oh, I still have so much more to do. And no matter how much I've accomplished, you know, written a few books, you know, I've run the Internet lottery more than once, which is amazing, you know, and more of the iceberg shows up. So people now, you know, you kind of know what I stand for, you know, the vision I have of the world that I'm trying to build, you either buy into it or you don't. I'm pretty predictable. In other words, more of the iceberg is showing up, and people look at what's above the ocean line, above the sea line, and they go, wow, look at all the stuff you've accomplished. And I just can still see everything that's beneath the ocean. I go, oh, still more to do. But I'm not moving the goalposts. I'm not trying to get a different iceberg.
- [80:36]
A
Interesting.
- [80:37]
B
I just know that that vision is infinite. All men are created equal. I have a dream. They're all ideals that are unrealistic and unachievable but will die trying. And that's the point. I imagine a world of world peace where we can resolve conflict peacefully. I'm never going to get it, but try. I imagine a world in which people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. Never going to achieve it, but I'll die trying. And so when I say I want, what I mean is, there's iceberg above the ocean. What I mean is I'm not living in dream world anymore. What I mean is I have momentum. What I mean is, I have help. What I mean is the movement is advancing, and this is my standard. However anybody else wants to define it is up to them. This is the worst thing you can do, is pick somebody else's standard and make it your own. This is for me. For me, it was about momentum. It was always about momentum that I wanted to do something that could survive me. And if you look at this class of. And I hate the term, but let's use the term that people use. But thought leaders, which is the mistake that so many of them make is. And I call it the Oprah problem, right?
- [81:53]
A
What? The Oprah problem.
- [81:54]
B
Oprah's amazing. She's a force of nature. She's incredible. She's inspiring. She's amazing. We all bow down to Oprah. She's a currency. And people are like, is that person good at what they do? That's Oprah's person. You're like, oh, whoa. If you're connected with Oprah, you've made it. The Oprah mistake. She put her face and name on absolutely everything. She was on the COVID of every single issue of Oprah magazine. She's got her face on the COVID of every single book. So what happens when there's no Oprah? What happens to the company? What happens to the movement? I can predict. It dies.
- [82:33]
A
Really.
- [82:35]
B
Do you think anyone cares about Oprah Magazine when Oprah's not around? What does Oprah's network stand for without Oprah? Force of nature. Who. Who did the thing that made strategic sense, which is to leverage the brand. But at what cost? The cost is it probably will only survive a lifetime, a powerful lifetime at that, but not beyond. And so I don't put my face on any books because I'm afraid of the Oprah problem. I don't want my face and name on everything. And I'd been very resistant. My team sometimes fights me with it because nobody Googles the name of my company. They Google me. And so I've had to sort of recognize that I have to let go of some of it for expedient's sake. But I'm deathly afraid of making it all about me.
- [83:33]
A
What do you think's the thing you'll be most proud of, that you accomplish when it's all said and done?
- [83:38]
B
Well, I mean, I've added to the English language. I mean, I think that's amazing. The concept of why. Journalists, companies, CEOs, analysts, whoever, people talk about their why. They use the concept of why as a noun. Like what's your why? That company doesn't know their why and they don't quote me. Wall Street Journal will say, the problem with that company is they don't know their why. And they do not reference any of my work. It's just in the vernacular. And prior to my work, that didn't exist. And I'm so proud of that. I'm so proud of that. And the best part about it is it's not associated with me. That's the thing I'm most proud of that most people don't know that that was what I was working on all those years ago. It's just part of life now. And that to me, I can sit back and no one will know my name. I don't care if my name's forgotten. I want to be one of those stars that nobody knows who they are. I think that's great. Let somebody else, you know. But to know that something that I did has added to people's understanding of the world, disconnected from me. I'm done. Everything else is cherries. That's cool.
- [84:45]
A
What do you think would be your most proud? I guess non business or non society related accomplishment?
- [84:53]
B
I'm a really good uncle. Yeah, I love my. I love being an uncle. I love my niece and nephew. My family fuels me as if I were there as If I were their.
- [85:05]
A
Dad, would you ever have kids or.
- [85:06]
B
No, I mean, it's, it's. I, I'm more in love with the idea of partnership than I am of children. Like, I like the idea of raising children with a partner. So my drive is not to have a child. My drive is to find somebody I love so much that I want the lifestyle of raising a family with that person. Like, I would always get turned on, like emotionally when I'd see my sister, my brother in law, like doing the division of labor, I'd just be at their house and I'd be like, okay, you bath the kids, I'll clean up. I'm like, oh, that's so cool. And even now, like, okay, you get this one from school, I'll get that one from volleyball practice. And the division of labor and the organizing, I think it's awesome. It's a well oiled machine. That's what I love, partnership. I love partnership and division of labor. I just think it's the best thing in the world.
- [85:55]
A
So you may have a family in the future or. And you're open to it.
- [85:58]
B
I'm not close to it.
- [85:59]
A
You're not against it?
- [86:00]
B
Not against it.
- [86:01]
A
How important do you think family is in America and to society?
- [86:07]
B
It's essential. I mean, you know, whether it's family or friends, we're like family, you know, I think that we, we have to perform for society. You have to act a certain way.
- [86:20]
A
There's levels of decorum, manners, values, morals.
- [86:23]
B
You know, and as much said that you get to be yourself where. No, you don't. You have to, you're not, you shouldn't be not yourself. You should always be you for sure. But you smooth the edges like you and I like, I curse like a sailor when I'm not on camera. Sure, I'm on camera. Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm. Tone it down a bit.
- [86:42]
A
Yeah, yeah, right. You're you, but less.
- [86:44]
B
I'm still me. I'm still this, like you hang out with me privately. This is what you're gonna get.
- [86:48]
A
Yeah, with some applause, a little more.
- [86:50]
B
Cursing, you know, you know, a little more irreverence, you know, I'm still me, but I, you, you smooth the edges. Depending on like how you are with your friends is very different than how you are in an interview. How you are on a first date is very different than how you are on a 10th date. Right. And it's still all you, but you, you have to change for the situation. We have no choice. It's how Society functions. If, if we all just wanted to be our quote unquote true selves all the time, society would break.
- [87:26]
A
It would be chaos.
- [87:27]
B
So the, the idea of like bending and molding to fit the situation. You have to be a little different at work than you are with your friend. The jokes you make with your friends, you can't make it work. You're not allowed. Right.
- [87:38]
A
You're fired, baby.
- [87:39]
B
You might get fired. Yeah. And so. Or you'll upset somebody where you're not upsetting your friends. Right. And so you have to do that. And so the value of family, and more important than the value of friends is that's the one place, those intimate settings where you can let it all go.
- [88:00]
A
Right. And hopefully be accepted.
- [88:02]
B
You can be weird and you can be irreverent and you can be rude and you can say nonsense and you can let all your insecurities out on the table as opposed to hiding them every day, which is what we're all very good at, hiding our insecurities on a daily basis. Like on a first date, don't put all your insecurities on the table. Not good first date etiquette.
- [88:23]
A
Sure.
- [88:23]
B
You know, by a tenth date. Yeah. Start to social vulnerability, you know, but with your friends, it's all out on the table. And that's why friends are important. Because if you're playing by society's rules, if you're hedging yourself to conf. What will people think? They're thinking nothing. You're by yourself with your. With your friends. What will people think of me? They'll think nothing. They're not thinking of you. And that's why friends are important. Because you have to have the release of being your fully exposed true self with all of the weirdness and warts just out on display and you don't feel judged and you feel safe and you feel loved. And that's why friends are important. Because if you're pretending. Not pretending, that's the wrong word. If you're hedging and smoothing for society and you're hedging and smoothing in private, you're going to feel lonely and you're going to feel uncomfortable.
- [89:16]
A
Yeah.
- [89:17]
B
If you're. You're fully open nut job self with your friends and then you're your fully nut job self out in public, people are going to be like, no, chill out.
- [89:28]
A
Yeah, yeah, chill out.
- [89:29]
B
And I've seen it. Like, I know, I know a guy who does stuff, what we do and he is very irreverent. He curses on stage. I mean he's like, he's raw. That's how he is in private and how he's in public. And his career is great. But I also know he doesn't get invited to certain gigs.
- [89:48]
A
All right, Right. Because of that personality. It might get him invited to certain things because of it. It might not get him invited because who knows?
- [89:55]
B
I think the uninvitations happen more than the invitations.
- [89:57]
A
Sure, sure, sure.
- [89:58]
B
You know, and they just wish he would stop cursing. Right, right. Because the audience doesn't want that. Right. And if he doesn't care, then he doesn't care.
- [90:11]
A
Exactly. Yeah.
- [90:12]
B
But, you know, the point is, is there are costs.
- [90:15]
A
Sure, of course. It's a price.
- [90:16]
B
There's a price.
- [90:17]
A
There's a price for everything.
- [90:18]
B
And is there's a benefit for that price, then have 100%. But anyway, the point is, is. The point is, is not that. The point is, is the value of friends is that you can be yourself without judgment.
- [90:30]
A
Yes.
- [90:30]
B
And that is really important.
- [90:32]
A
One of the big takeaways for me from this conversation, I always get a lot of great insights when I'm around you, Simon.
- [90:36]
B
We cover a lot of topics.
- [90:37]
A
Yeah, it's beautiful. One of the big insights, though, I think the biggest thing for me, which I think everyone can be better at, is learning the skill of conflict resolution.
- [90:47]
B
Because if you talked about it much.
- [90:49]
A
If you can learn the skill of conflict resolution, we flirted with it. You said the first thing is listening. I think I jumped in and said, you know, learning how to express your feelings as another thing that you were talking about. And you mentioned a clear sense of your values, like understanding what are my values? So I can communicate my values without, you know, throwing up on everyone and also be able to listen to someone else and see, okay, is there any middle ground? And I think there's something else you said which was interesting, which is managing insecurities, like understanding your insecurities and being able to talk about it either with your friends or in a way where you can manage them. And maybe it's not good to talk about them right away with certain people when you're in conflict, but understanding, okay, I'm feeling jealous, I'm feeling insecure, I'm feeling not heard, whatever it might be. I'm feeling a lack and being able to manage them so that you can hopefully communicate and express what you need to communicate at the right time in the right manner. You've got, at Optimism Company, you've got a. An online human skills courses. You've got these different courses. I'm not sure if conflict resolution is one of them. If it isn't, I think it should be.
- [91:56]
B
I think it might be. And if it isn't, you're right.
- [91:58]
A
But you've got a lot of. Because I think that's kind of the root of a lot of problems, is people don't know how to communicate when there is conflict.
- [92:05]
B
So here. I know we're winding down, but let's do a couple practical things. So, yes, one of them was if you're in conflict with someone. And let's talk about relationships, because it works at work as well. Because Relationships. Relationships. But here's some mistakes that we make, right? We correct people's facts in an emotional situation. Right. We bring facts to an emotional gunfight. Do not do that. Really. Right. So, for example, why not? Because facts don't. Facts and emotions are different things. Right. I'll give you an example. Your girlfriend says to you, I'm so angry at you because six times last week you did this thing and you went. Actually, it was four times. And she was like, who cares how many times? It was like, if you're gonna fight with me, get your facts right. Yeah, don't do that. Just let it be sex. It doesn't matter.
- [92:56]
A
I'm kind of that guy that once it gets the facts right, you know, it's. No, I want it to be because I feel like it's unfair.
- [93:00]
B
No, do not bring facts on just.
- [93:02]
A
Though.
- [93:02]
B
No, do not bring facts to another.
- [93:04]
A
You're the fairest guy, though.
- [93:05]
B
So what if someone. It's nothing to do with fairness. It's about the other person feeling heard. You're getting. You're playing the wrong.
- [93:11]
A
I got that.
- [93:11]
B
Playing with the wrong rules. So do not bring facts in emotional gunfight.
- [93:15]
A
Okay.
- [93:16]
B
Okay. Allow emotions. So I'll give you. I'll give you a real life example, okay, of where I learned this or how it. One of the ways I applied this. I went to see a friend's performance that she was in a. In a show. It was the worst thing I've ever seen in my entire life. And at the end of the show, I went and hung out in the lobby like all the friends and family. And she came out all jacked up on adrenaline, still in costume, still in makeup, big smile on her face. She goes, what'd you think? She knows I'm an honest broker. She knows I'm not gonna lie to her. Now is not the time. Now is not the time. So I said, but I can't lie.
- [93:50]
A
Yes.
- [93:51]
B
So I said, oh, my God, I'm so, so proud of you. True. So this was so much fun for me to be able to see you do your thing for the first time. I've never seen you on stage before. True. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Kiss, kiss, kiss. And then goes off to the next person. Two days later, when all the adrenaline has calmed down and there's no more emotion, I said to her, hey, you asked me what I thought about the play. Can I tell you? Can we talk about it? She goes, yeah, absolutely. And then I can say I thought the direction was a bit weak. I thought the thing she's. And we can have a rational conversation about it. If I did it in the moment, I would have hurt her feelings.
- [94:23]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [94:23]
B
For no reason whatsoever.
- [94:24]
A
Yeah.
- [94:24]
B
Yeah, right? Somebody gives you a gift, it's the ugliest sweater you've ever seen. They go, what do you think?
- [94:29]
A
You can't say it's ugly.
- [94:31]
B
You can't say it's ugly. You go, thank you so much for thinking of me. This is so unnecessary. And then three days later, you go, hey, do you have the gift receipt? Do you mind if I exchange it for something else? I'm not crazy about the color. They'd be like, yeah, totally fine. So you can't bring facts through an emotional gunfight. You meet emotion with emotion. You meet facts with facts. And sometimes if somebody's in an emotional state, if you're not, you have to allow them to be in the emotional state, which means you have to hold space. And it sounds ooey gooey, sort of hippie dippy, hold space. All it means is allow the emotions to be heard. That's all they want, is to feel feel, not think. All they want to do is feel heard. So there's one really easy trick to do it. Whatever they're saying to you. And I've had this happen to me, I was having. My girlfriend decided to tell me what she thought, and she was saying things that were untrue. Made me super defensive. Super defensive and really unfair. And I fought back a couple times, and it didn't work, because it never does, because I'm bringing facts to an emotional gunfight, and I should know better. So in my head, I said to myself, this is her story. Her story doesn't have to be true. Your job is to listen to her story. I literally said it. And she would say things that really, like, made me. They triggered me. And I would say to myself, this is her story. Her story doesn't have to be true. Your job is to listen to her story. And I sat there and I would nod and I'd say, tell me more. Go on. What else? And I acted. I listened to a story that I removed myself from one of the. As one of the characters.
- [96:09]
A
Yeah, so hard to do.
- [96:10]
B
As if she was talking about somebody else. And I just let her get it all out. And I affirmed. I said, yeah, I hear that. I hear that. That hurt. Tell me more. What else? Go on. Tell me more. What else? Go on. This is her story. Her story doesn't have to be true. My job is to listen to her story. And at the end, she goes, thank you. Thank you. I probably overstated some of those things. I know you've been struggling, and I know you've been overworked, and that's probably. And she gave me all the passes I didn't have to say, what are you talking about? I've been stressed out of my mind. How can you. So I'm not listening to her, right?
- [96:43]
A
Yes.
- [96:45]
B
And so this is how we resolve conflict. Conflict resolution is not efficient. And what I have learned is that it gets more and more efficient over time because you get really good. You get really good at making somebody feel heard really quickly. And you get really good at backing away really quickly. And you get really good at understanding that if their Response is above a 5, it's probably about something else. You always leave the cap off the toothpaste. It's not about the toothpaste. You get really good about not having a whole fight to find out it wasn't about the toothpaste. Because that's usually why it's inefficient. You'd fight first, then you'd realize it's not about the toothpaste. And that's what takes four hours. What happens is you recognize that when somebody yells at you about the cap on the toothpaste, you go, babe, what's the matter? What's going on? And you let them say whatever they need to say about the cap on the toothpaste. And you know, it's not about the toothpaste. You just need to let them get it out so they can get to the thing that it's actually about for you to take accountability for your actions. And that's the other thing. You have to take accountability for your actions. Saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're wrong. Saying you're sorry means you take accountability for the thing that you said or did that hurt them. That hurt them.
- [97:52]
A
Yeah.
- [97:53]
B
The analogy is you're walking through the airport with your wheelie bag. And you accidentally roll your wheelie bag over somebody's foot. You turn around, you immediately go, sorry, you didn't intend to, but it's your bag. So you say, sorry. Can you imagine if you rolled your bag over someone's foot? And they go, what up? And you go, what? I didn't do it on purpose. They're like, you roll over my foot. You're like, I didn't do it on purpose. That's how we fight with our loved ones. We say something that hurts them. We rolled our bag over their foot. And they go, why won't you say you're sorry? You're like, I didn't do it on purpose. Why would I need to apologize? Because it's your words, because it's your actions, because it's your wheelie bag. You didn't do it on purpose. Still your words, still your actions, still hurt their foot, still hurt their feelings. So accountability is built into it anyway. You get all those 100%.
- [98:39]
A
Yeah. People want to learn more. You've got. What do you got in your skills courses right now, because I think this is where you thrived, is giving people human skills to be better humans.
- [98:49]
B
That's the goal. We are super, super focused on our learning platform where it's all about human skills. We're not going to teach you how to get an MBA or anything. That's none of that stuff.
- [98:56]
A
This is the law school. This is the art that helps you. The art of being human, being successful in life.
- [99:00]
B
The art of being a human being. And, you know, cats don't have to work very hard to be cats. And that's just natural. But it turns out it's a lot of work to be a good human.
- [99:06]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [99:07]
B
To be good at being a human being is really like. It's not natural. We're kind of junk at it. And you have to study it. Conflict resolution is essential in a relationship. But what if you don't know how to resolve a conflict if you've never been taught?
- [99:19]
A
Yeah.
- [99:19]
B
And so listening. Conflict resolution, how to give and receive feedback. These are all skills. How to lead others. You know, these are all skills. How do. These are all skills that. That we have on our website and continue to add to that skill set.
- [99:33]
A
That's great.
- [99:33]
B
And it's. A lot of the stuff is, you know, the. The way we come up with a lot of the classes is like, somebody on the team is like, I need to learn this.
- [99:40]
A
And you're like, let's create it.
- [99:41]
B
We'll build It.
- [99:42]
A
Yeah, it's all@simonsenic.com all the, all the courses. The podcast. You got a great podcast as well. A bit of optimism. People can check that out. Those are the main things you're working on these days right now.
- [99:54]
B
Bit of optimism. Podcast. That's the thing. The website. That's a thing. I also have a. I also am a publisher.
- [100:00]
A
Oh, I saw that too.
- [100:02]
B
Yeah. So I have. I have a deal with Penguin Books, and my last book that we published was a book called Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidera, which is spectacular.
- [100:11]
A
Is this the restaurateer?
- [100:12]
B
Yes.
- [100:12]
A
Out of New York?
- [100:13]
B
Yes. He used to own eleven Madison park, which was the number one restaurant in the world.
- [100:17]
A
You published that book. That's great.
- [100:18]
B
And the book has nothing. Well, it has been. It's not about how to start a restaurant.
- [100:21]
A
Sure, sure.
- [100:22]
B
Treat people.
- [100:22]
A
Of course.
- [100:23]
B
You should have Will. He's.
- [100:24]
A
That's interesting.
- [100:24]
B
He is a freaking rock star.
- [100:26]
A
I want to check that out. I've heard about that guy and he's amazing. I hear he's awesome.
- [100:29]
B
He's amazing and his book is amazing.
- [100:31]
A
What's the book called again?
- [100:31]
B
Unreasonable Hospitality. Super, super proud to be the part about that book.
- [100:35]
A
Yeah, that's super pretty. Well, I'm gonna check that out. How else can we be of service to you today, my man?
- [100:41]
B
I mean, you give me a platform to. To wax philosophical. I always like coming on here. I always like coming on here. Our conversation always goes in a very unexpected direction. Yeah, we do have a lot of fun. So thanks very much.
- [100:50]
A
We'll have to do it when the next book is out. I'm sure it'll be back on.
- [100:53]
B
So do it.
- [100:54]
A
Come back. So make sure people check you out. Check out the courses. I think you're one of the best at teaching this stuff. Podcast obviously is free, but other than that. Simon, my man, appreciate you as always.
- [101:04]
B
Thanks.
- [101:04]
A
Appreciate it.
- [101:05]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [101:06]
A
I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you are looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life. But you want to make it easier. You want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment. Moving forward, we have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to the next episode on the School of Greatness. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcast Podcast. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter and now it's time to go out there and do something great. With HubSpot's built in AI, you can get more done than ever before. Breeze Agents help you do things in seconds that used to take hours and Copilot keeps you two steps ahead, giving you the right insights at the right time. Get started today@HubSpot.com AI@Strayer University we help.
- [103:01]
B
Students like you go from Will I To why not? For over 130 years we've been innovating higher education to make it more affordable, accessible and attainable so you can reach your goals. Go from thinking Can I? To Yes I Can and keep striving. Visit strayer.edu to learn more. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and its many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.