Podcast Title: The School of Greatness
Host: Lewis Howes
Guest: Dr. Caroline Fleck, Stanford Psychologist and Author
Episode: Stanford Psychologist: The #1 Psychological Skill To Master The Art of Influence & Transform Your Relationships
Release Date: May 21, 2025

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of The School of Greatness, host Lewis Howes welcomes Dr. Caroline Fleck, a licensed psychologist, adjunct clinical instructor at Stanford, and author of the book Validation: The Skill Set That Revolutionized Psychology Will Transform Your Relationships, Increase Your Influence, and Change Your Life. The conversation delves deep into the concept of validation, exploring its pivotal role in personal relationships, influence, and overall mental well-being.

Understanding Validation

Dr. Fleck introduces validation as a multifaceted skill set essential for effective communication and relationship building. Originating from Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), validation involves communicating acceptance and ensuring others feel seen and heard without necessarily agreeing with their viewpoints.

Dr. Caroline Fleck [07:50]: "Validation is a set of skills... to communicate acceptance, to help another person feel seen and heard."

The Validation Ladder

Dr. Fleck outlines the "Validation Ladder," an eight-step model designed to enhance interpersonal connections. She highlights the first few steps essential for establishing a foundation of trust and understanding.

1. Attending

Attending encompasses mindfulness and engagement, ensuring non-judgmental listening. It involves maintaining eye contact, appropriate proximity, gestures, and nodding to show genuine curiosity.

Dr. Caroline Fleck [11:10]: "Validation conveys mindfulness, understanding, and empathy in a way that makes the other person feel accepted."

2. Copying (Mirroring)

Copying, or mirroring, involves subtly mimicking the body language and expressions of the person you're interacting with. This activates mirror neurons, fostering empathy and connection.

Dr. Caroline Fleck [20:05]: "Mirror neurons... We are designed to copy. Babies mimic the facial expressions of their parents and caregivers."

3. Understanding

Understanding moves beyond attending and copying by cognitively grasping the other person's perspective. It involves articulating the emotions and reasons behind their feelings without judgment.

Dr. Caroline Fleck [30:55]: "Show some degree of understanding... 'Anyone in your shoes would feel that way.'"

4. Empathy

Empathy combines mindfulness, understanding, and emotional resonance. It allows deeper connections by genuinely relating to the other person's experiences and emotions.

Dr. Caroline Fleck [39:34]: "Empathy skills communicate mindfulness, understanding, and empathy in one fell swoop."

Practical Applications of Validation

Dr. Fleck emphasizes that validation is not just a therapeutic tool but a universal skill applicable in everyday interactions, from personal relationships to professional settings. She explains how validating others can transform conflicts into opportunities for connection and growth.

Dr. Caroline Fleck [08:16]: "If you want to help people make profound changes, you need to help them feel deeply accepted."

Personal Stories and Examples

Throughout the episode, Dr. Fleck shares poignant personal anecdotes illustrating the power of validation. She recounts her struggle with depression and how validation played a crucial role in her recovery and professional practice.

Dr. Caroline Fleck [41:34]: "I struggled with depression for about a decade... I felt invalidated by most of the mental health providers."

Lewis Howes also shares his experiences, connecting his journey of building his business and relationships with the principles of validation.

Lewis Howes [05:36]: "For making a difference in the world. For making an influence on people in a positive way."

Challenges in Practicing Validation

Dr. Fleck acknowledges the difficulties in maintaining validation, especially in emotionally charged situations. She discusses instances where even mental health professionals can falter, leading to invalidation, and underscores the importance of continual practice and self-awareness.

Dr. Caroline Fleck [47:00]: "Nobody else sees it. Like, why doesn't anyone else see it? Like, you're not the same person."

Self-Validation and Mental Health

The conversation shifts to the significance of self-validation in fostering mental health. Dr. Fleck outlines a personal routine she follows to self-validate, which involves acknowledging emotions, feeling them without attaching narratives, and taking actions to soothe herself.

Dr. Caroline Fleck [57:08]: "I had to sit there and be like, all right, what am I feeling? This is shame. Now that I've... feel it really squeeze out that sponge. It will decrease."

Repairing and Reconnecting

Dr. Fleck highlights the importance of repairing relationships when invalidation occurs. She shares strategies for acknowledging mistakes and revalidating the other person to strengthen bonds.

Dr. Caroline Fleck [64:21]: "I have followed up the next day to say... 'You must feel like you're grieving a parent that's still alive.'"

Validation vs. Persuasion

The episode concludes with a discussion on the interplay between validation and persuasion. Dr. Fleck explains that while validation builds trust and openness, persuasion involves guiding someone towards a desired action or viewpoint. Effective validation can enhance one's ability to influence positively.

Dr. Caroline Fleck [65:28]: "Influence is kind of a change agenda... people are more easily influenced by those that they trust."

Conclusion

Lewis Howes and Dr. Caroline Fleck wrap up the episode by reaffirming the transformative power of validation in all aspects of life. They encourage listeners to practice validation to improve their relationships, increase their influence, and enhance their mental well-being.

Lewis Howes [38:57]: "The quality of our life is related to our ability to validate effectively."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Lewis Howes [00:00]: "If you're going through something challenging, then I'm going to let you know it's all going to be okay."

• Dr. Caroline Fleck [07:50]: "Validation is a set of skills... to communicate acceptance, to help another person feel seen and heard."

• Dr. Caroline Fleck [20:05]: "Mirror neurons... We are designed to copy. Babies mimic the facial expressions of their parents and caregivers."

• Lewis Howes [05:36]: "For making a difference in the world. For making an influence on people in a positive way."

• Dr. Caroline Fleck [41:34]: "I struggled with depression for about a decade... I felt invalidated by most of the mental health providers."

• Lewis Howes [38:57]: "The quality of our life is related to our ability to validate effectively."

Key Takeaways

1. Validation Enhances Relationships: By genuinely listening and acknowledging others' feelings, we foster deeper connections and trust.

2. The Validation Ladder: Mastering attending, copying, understanding, and empathy can transform how we interact with others.

3. Self-Validation is Crucial: Understanding and accepting our own emotions is essential for mental well-being.

4. Validation vs. Persuasion: While validation builds trust, it can also enhance our ability to positively influence others.

5. Continuous Practice: Validation is a skill that requires ongoing practice and self-awareness to master effectively.

Final Thoughts

Dr. Caroline Fleck's insights into validation provide a powerful framework for anyone seeking to improve their interpersonal relationships and personal growth. By embracing validation, individuals can navigate challenges with greater ease, build meaningful connections, and cultivate a more profound sense of self-acceptance and empathy.

For those interested in delving deeper, Dr. Fleck's book Validation offers a comprehensive guide to mastering these essential psychological skills.