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The School of Greatness
Stanford Psychologist: The #1 Psychological Skill To Master The Art of Influence & Transform Your Relationships
01:01:26
Discover the science of validation with Dr. Caroline Fleck as she reveals the 8-step process that revolutionized psychology. Learn how mimicking body language, properly attending to others, and self-validation techniques can transform your relationships and create deeper connections with everyone in your life.
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- [00:00]
Lewis Howes
I'm so grateful that you're here. It's a beautiful day and if you're going through something challenging, then I'm going to let you know it's all going to be okay. I don't know how many times I've felt like the world was falling apart.
- [00:12]
Unknown Co-Host
Or the world was against me, or no one cared about me, or no.
- [00:17]
Lewis Howes
One loved me, or it just felt.
- [00:18]
Unknown Co-Host
Like everything was difficult.
- [00:20]
Lewis Howes
I don't know how many years I experienced that, but it always felt like, is this suffering and frustration and friction.
- [00:27]
Unknown Co-Host
Ever going to end? And I have good news and bad news.
- [00:30]
Lewis Howes
The bigger the dream you have, the greater the challenge and the friction that's gonna come.
- [00:34]
Unknown Co-Host
But the more you create inner peace, you heal, you learn to love yourself and accept yourself. You release shame, you release guilt, you realign yourself to your authentic power. And you truly start to create awareness around yourself and others. Things start to transform and you can navigate and handle difficult challenges in a.
- [00:59]
Lewis Howes
Much more effort, effortless way. So it doesn't mean like all your problems are going to go away. You're just going to have the tools.
- [01:05]
Unknown Co-Host
The poise, the inner peace and presence and awareness to navigate them and look at them not as horrible experiences, but as opportunities for growth and transformation. And we've got a powerful episode today.
- [01:18]
Lewis Howes
Dr. Caroline Fleck, who is a body.
- [01:21]
Unknown Co-Host
Language expert and she's going to be sharing tools that you need to create deeper connection and really how to understand navigating these difficult times in our lives. And as a licensed psychologist and instructor at Stanford and author of a new book called Validation, she shares this step by step process on how you can truly connect with everyone around you so that they feel truly seen and heard. And we dive into this science of validation, a skill set that revolutionized psychology and is now being revealed as essential for everyone.
- [01:55]
Lewis Howes
So it's going to give you powerful.
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Unknown Co-Host
Tools to create deeper connections.
- [01:58]
Lewis Howes
Because sometimes when our relationships feel like they're falling apart or we can't navigate.
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Unknown Co-Host
Difficult challenges within relationships, we feel like we're falling apart and the world is against us.
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Lewis Howes
She's going to break down the entire.
- [02:11]
Unknown Co-Host
Process and how you can truly connect with people to transform challenges into opportunities for peace, purpose and connection. I'm so excited about this.
- [02:22]
Lewis Howes
I hope you enjoy it.
- [02:26]
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Lewis Howes
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Lewis Howes
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- [03:13]
Lewis Howes
Who still plays a weekend garage band.
- [03:16]
Unknown Co-Host
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- [04:21]
Lewis Howes
Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have Dr. Caroline Fleck who is a licensed Psych adjunct clinical instructor at Stanford. I'm so happy that you're here and welcome to the new set of the School of Greatness.
- [04:36]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
I am thrilled.
- [04:37]
Lewis Howes
This is the perfect conversation to talk about because you have a book called Validation how how the Skill Set that Revolutionized Psychology Will Transform your relationships, Increase your influence and Change your life. And for me, I love these types of conversations and I love the research that you've done because it validates my entire life. It validates like the struggles that I've gone through and the almost defense mechanism I had to build up through surviving in society by learning this skill without even knowing that I was doing this to fit in, to belong, to get attention, to level up socially from middle school to high school to college to business. And as I was going through the science and the research that you had in the book, I was Just like, I'm so happy you're talking about this, because I believe this is everything that I have used in a good way to support me in building my business and developing relationships for good. For making a difference in the world.
- [05:37]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [05:37]
Lewis Howes
For making an influence on people in a positive way.
- [05:39]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yes.
- [05:40]
Lewis Howes
And so I wanted to start by asking you. We're going to do a couple of parts to this, but the first part I want to talk about is really, what have you learned as a, as a practitioner? What is a psychological skill that you have learned from all the different clinical work with patients that can help individuals in the real world? All the work you've done, all the skills that you've taught? What's one skill that people could use in the real world to help them transform their life?
- [06:16]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Validation. So I. And validation is a, is a set of skills, really. So you learn as a clinician, you're trained in these skills to help you communicate acceptance, to help you help another person feel seen and heard. This is very important if you want to get people to listen to you and to collaborate with you and to work with you. Okay. And there's a science to this. Like, this is, you know, we've researched what is the most effective way, how can you signal acceptance? And as therapists, you're trained in this method. These specific skills were developed for a treatment called dialectical behavior therapy, dbt, which is a specific treatment for folks who have a condition known as borderline personality disorder. Okay. Often characterized by self harm and suicidal behavior. So serious stuff. But here's the thing. I found myself, however old I was getting my PhD in psychology, studying this very specific treatment and finally being introduced to these skills that I'm thinking, why isn't this in grade school? Like, why aren't these, why aren't these skills taught in, you know, K through 5? Why am I just hearing about this now? And like, this is the path it took for me to get this information. And I mean, not only was it immediately apparent that these skills helped patients and improved, you know, were critical to doing therapy?
- [07:51]
Lewis Howes
Well, is this you learning how to validate patients?
- [07:53]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
This is me learning how to validate patients.
- [07:55]
Lewis Howes
Because if you don't validate a patient, they're not gonna trust and believe you what you're saying. They're gonna feel unseen, unheard, like you don't understand them. So I'm just going to keep living in this world of no one gets me. Even my therapist doesn't understand me.
- [08:09]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Of course. Yeah.
- [08:10]
Lewis Howes
So why would I trust and listen to what they're saying, and take action on the tools that you're sharing with me.
- [08:16]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's right.
- [08:17]
Lewis Howes
Interesting.
- [08:17]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
It's even a little further than that. So prior to dbt, we had this real focus in psychology on change. Everything was, you know, behaviorism, cognitive behaviorism, which focuses on changing your behavior, changing your thoughts. And that's great for folks who are change focused, believe in their capacity for change, and are willing to do what you suggest. Okay. If you've ever raised an adolescent or just been in a relationship with somebody where you feel like nothing's working, you know, that feeling of, like, there are times when that approach just doesn't work. And so for the longest time, we didn't have treatments that worked for folks who were what we called treatment resistant. And the discovery, the fascinating insight, was that if you want to help people make profound changes, you need to help them feel deeply accepted.
- [09:14]
Unknown Co-Host
Really?
- [09:15]
Lewis Howes
What if there's someone that you're. That you don't understand because you don't think the way they think? They have completely opposite viewpoints, or they're extreme, borderline bipolar or extreme personality disorder. They're suicidal. And you don't understand that. How can you validate someone that you don't understand?
- [09:36]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
So the skills that we learn, you start out with just a couple that basically signal engagement that help me engage and help me listen in a way that will foster understanding and empathy. Okay, but here's the thing. I don't have to validate the entirety of someone's experience.
- [09:54]
Lewis Howes
Okay?
- [09:55]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
So when I'm working with, say, a schizophrenic client, someone who literally is seeing and hearing things that are not there, and this person is reacting to me as though I'm a threat, I'm trying to kill them or something, and I'm not. I don't agree with those thoughts. Not by any stretch of the imagination. That is not valid. However, the feeling of fear and the desire to protect themselves, given what they're thinking, makes sense. I can validate that. I can go a step further and say, would you feel more comfortable taping recording this conversation? Because I understand that you don't trust me right now. And if I wasn't feeling trust towards the person who I was talking to, I might want some recording so I could go back to it to make.
- [10:42]
Lewis Howes
Someone more safe feeling.
- [10:44]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Right. I'm not saying I agree with your thoughts, but I see the validity in your feeling, and I can attend to that. Does that make sense? So, like, that is critical, because what we tend to focus on is behavior that we don't like, we don't agree with, and we fail to attend to the valid emotions behind it.
- [11:05]
Lewis Howes
What would you say then is the step by step process for making someone feel seen and validated?
- [11:10]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Okay, it is. The model I use is called the validation ladder and it includes eight skills and I won't go through them all. But essentially, validation conveys mindfulness, understanding and empathy in a way that makes the other person feel accepted. So at the bare minimum, if I don't understand or empathize with someone, all I can do is be mindful and engaged. And to be mindful, you need to project non judgment. So it's not just listening. Okay. Because people can tell when you are listening and coming up with your rebuttal and your counter argument or your judgments. So you have to listen in such a way that projects curiosity. And we know how to do that. All right. You use specific non verbals and you play this little game in your head which is amazing and super effective. You want me to talk about it?
- [12:05]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [12:06]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Kind of embarrassed. Okay, so little therapist trick. But it is, it's how we attend. If I'm sitting across from someone and you're talking to me, the game I'm playing in my head is to solve or figure out this kind of two part riddle. What's your point? Why do you care about it and how do I improve upon it? How could I crystallize that argument better? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're just thinking on your feet and you're throwing all this together. So in my mind I'm thinking, just how do I make this point better than you're making it now. It's kind of like when you're in a debate and you have to argue a position you don't necessarily agree with. Right. Like why you should smoke. And you're just in the. Your job is just to kind of formulate the best argument you can. That's essentially what you're doing. So you start asking questions to try and understand their position better and you're just tweaking it and tweaking it. If you watch great interviewers like late night hosts, you'll see you. You can see them playing a version of this game. They're trying to pull out the best interview they can. Doesn't necessarily mean that they agree with what the other person is saying or whatever. They're just trying to crystallize that message and that informs how they listen and then the questions they ask. And without fail, there's a sense of genuine curiosity there, because it's genuinely there.
- [13:33]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, but if there's someone that you're working with.
- [13:35]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Sure.
- [13:36]
Lewis Howes
Whether it's an elite executive or someone who's suicidal and they're trying to make a point in your mind, you know, that's not what they need to be thinking about. It's actually hurting them or blocking them from creating what they want.
- [13:49]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Sure.
- [13:50]
Lewis Howes
How do you play the game of validating their point when you know it's hurting them or it's a false belief around something or it's not the truth that's going to support them in setting them free emotionally, psychologically? How do you play that game and then empower them to think a different way?
- [14:06]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Okay, so as I'm playing that game, I'm just asking at this level. It's just kind of mindful awareness that I'm projecting here. And as I'm listening, I am hearing the emotion. I am starting to make connections in my head. I am looking for what is the kernel of truth in what this person is saying? Where is this coming from? What is the feeling behind this? What function does this behavior serve? With suicidality? It's often relief from pain. All right. If they had a way to relieve pain, they would take it. And this is the only option they see. I don't agree with that. But importantly, validation does not require agreement. I'm a vegetarian, but I could validate why somebody would choose to eat meat. That doesn't mean I agree with them. I just see the validity in their argument, and I can focus on that instead of the part that I disagree with. And importantly, if I focus on that first, the conversation around, perhaps changing their opinion is much more likely to be successful.
- [15:10]
Lewis Howes
So validate their point first.
- [15:12]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Validate the valid. Yeah.
- [15:14]
Lewis Howes
And then if you're trying to influence or persuade to seeing something differently, how do you move them in that direction?
- [15:20]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's when I pivot to more, like, behavioral stuff. Okay. So that would be, you know, we have all sorts of reinforcement, shaping that we do to try and kind of nudge the person in the other direction. But the interesting thing is the person will just be more receptive to you. You're curious, they absorb that curiosity. So one of the other mindfulness skills we use here, there's that attending one, and then there's copying, which sounds so weird. But let me tell you, if you are, like, up at night, you can't sleep. Google the research on mimicry or copying. It is fascinating stuff, like simply copying another person's body language. Okay.
- [16:03]
Lewis Howes
Does it get too weird if you're copying everything, though.
- [16:05]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
It does. It does.
- [16:06]
Lewis Howes
Like, I scratch. You scratch. I switch my feed.
- [16:08]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
You switch your feet. Yeah, it does.
- [16:09]
Lewis Howes
I shift. You shift.
- [16:10]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
It would. But here's the thing. So as soon as we were talking and I was starting to feel like, ooh, this isn't going well, I would in my head just say, like, copy. I'm not gonna be too, you know, drilled in, but I just give, like, myself a message, copy.
- [16:25]
Lewis Howes
For you to copy me.
- [16:26]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
For me to copy you.
- [16:27]
Lewis Howes
Okay.
- [16:27]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
I just tell myself, copy. And I slowly start to assume a similar position. Okay. And I'm intentionally doing that because I'm trying to attune to you, and this isn't me just being weird. Doing this activates mirror neurons, wherein, as a result of copying your expression and your body language, I will start to feel, I will start to taste some of what you are experiencing. All right. That is how mirror neurons function. We are designed to copy. Babies mimic the facial expressions of people, of their parents and caregivers. When we're attracted to people or we want to impress them or we like them, we naturally copy them. When we sense threat, we tend to close up. And interestingly, those are the moments oftentimes conflict. Right. Where connection would serve you best. It's just not what we're wired to do.
- [17:37]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, because we're in the defense.
- [17:38]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's right.
- [17:39]
Lewis Howes
We're guarding protective.
- [17:42]
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- [20:02]
Lewis Howes
So copying is, is it similar to mirroring or mimicking?
- [20:06]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Mirroring?
- [20:07]
Lewis Howes
What is the science behind copying or mirroring that shows you how much more influential you can be in any relationship?
- [20:15]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Oh my gosh. So I'm trying to think of some of these really quirky studies they they looked at. For instance, when waiters simply repeat back an order compared to those who don't, they get a 25% higher tip on average. Right. Copying increases altruistic behavior towards the person who did the copying. It also overcomes implicit racism. So they'll, they have ways of measuring kind of subtle forms of racism that you're not even aware of. They'll give you an assessment to measure that and then they'll have you copy someone of the opposite race. Copy their movements in a video or something and then they'll measure it again and that implicit racism has significantly decreased.
- [21:01]
Lewis Howes
Wow. Just by copying?
- [21:03]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Just by copying. Yeah. So this is what I'm saying about how you use these entry skills to cultivate more understanding and empathy and that is how you move to higher levels of validation. Because my full time job is working with people who are saying, doing and believing Things that are distorted to the extent of being pathological.
- [21:25]
Lewis Howes
Can you give me an example of what someone might say? You don't have to say who or what it was exactly, but an example of a distorted belief.
- [21:35]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Well, Caroline, it's clear. I guess this is done. I guess we're not working together anymore. Me saying, I'm sorry. What happened? I emailed you yesterday. Didn't respond. Didn't respond to me. Oh, I'm so sorry. I had so many. Immediately I'm getting defensive. Right. I am so sorry. I had so many, you know, that I. I self harm.
- [21:57]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [21:58]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
You don't care. You don't care. You think this is fun. You think this is fun. Just really kind of, wow, ramping it.
- [22:06]
Lewis Howes
Up, taking it to a whole nother level. It's like a different world in their mind. Right?
- [22:10]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
It is. And in my heart, I'm feeling responsible for what's going on here, for them.
- [22:16]
Lewis Howes
Harming themselves mentally, potentially physically.
- [22:19]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
And then, like, I need to get this under control. So it's that type of. Those types of situations. And if these skills work in those situations, their potential, when the stakes are much lower and folks are much more rational, is significantly.
- [22:37]
Lewis Howes
Yeah. When someone's more receptive, you know, less aggressive or less like. Or just in the same world as you.
- [22:43]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [22:43]
Lewis Howes
Mentally, emotionally.
- [22:45]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yes. I mean, it's much easier.
- [22:47]
Lewis Howes
Interesting. But if someone's extremely combative or in a completely different world like that, how do you walk them off the edge? I mean, not physically, but how do you walk them off the edge? I guess pull them back into a place of, like, getting back into a reality or is that not even possible for some people?
- [23:04]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
There's a lot of different things that go into that. At this. At that point, what I would start doing genuinely is actually to copy back. Okay, so let me get this right. I want to make sure I've got this. You emailed me yesterday. From your perspective, this should have been a signal to me that you were in crisis. Okay, I. Okay. And I need to be careful not to say that wasn't in your email. Just like, so. So right now I got it. You are feeling like I totally betrayed you, like I'm intentionally trying to hurt you. Oh, my gosh. Okay, I get. I see, I see, I see. Oh, I'm so sorry you feel that way. Oh, my gosh. That is. No, no, no, no. That is not what happened. Not from my. Can I share my perspective? It's okay if you don't want me to, because that could sound offensive, but I really I, I, I'm, I. It hurts my heart that there was this miscommunication.
- [24:02]
Lewis Howes
But doesn't that feel like you have to walk on eggshells?
- [24:04]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah, a little.
- [24:05]
Lewis Howes
I mean, if that's the real world, maybe with a patient who's personality disorder.
- [24:11]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
But no, because I am seeing like that's their world, that's their perspective. I do see that.
- [24:17]
Lewis Howes
Right, right.
- [24:17]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
I'm not saying anything I don't believe. Now here's the thing. It's acceptance and change. Not acceptance or change. They are two sides of the same coin. So I can validate. And then once I see that that has resonated, I switch gears. Okay, but let's look at this for a second. If you keep responding to people in this way, when they miss a message from you, I'm worried you're going to start burning people out. Because the other thing I felt just now was attacked and scared and not in a good way. All right, is there anything we could have done? Do you think that could have brought down the intensity just a little bit? So you could give me that message but not make me want to hide under the couch?
- [25:11]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [25:12]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
So that's it. That's that combination. You see how I'm going from validation to change.
- [25:16]
Lewis Howes
Interesting, right? Okay, but you said attend attending was the first step in the ladder, right?
- [25:22]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah. And the second is copying, which is that mimicry that I do.
- [25:25]
Lewis Howes
And attending includes eye contact, proximity, gesturing and nodding.
- [25:31]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's right. So it's a two parter. It's that little game that you're playing in the head and then it's non verbals. All right, and what was the first thing to go out the window once we were in shutdown from lockdown from COVID Proximity. Proximity.
- [25:47]
Lewis Howes
Eye contact. Yeah, yeah. I mean, all of it.
- [25:50]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
I guess gestures get really awkward. Everything. Yeah, everything.
- [25:54]
Lewis Howes
And so it's hard to feel validated if you're not in person.
- [25:57]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
It's hard to feel seen, it's hard to feel connected. Right. And I'm not saying that that explains all of the loneliness we experienced. But as a therapist, I can, I can vouch for the fact that it was significantly harder. I had one hand tied behind my back because these skills that I've learned to rely on, I could not use. And that's hard. And that is something we sacrifice by being so online. And if you think there's nothing meaningful there, I would challenge you to look at the research on, on kind of how folks who are online for hours and hours a day fare in terms of Mental health and relationships. Yeah, it's not good stuff.
- [26:43]
Lewis Howes
So attending is the first thing. Copying is the second thing. I also saw this quote that I loved in your book on page 81. It's by Henry David Thoreau that says the greatest compliment that was ever paid to me was when someone asked me what I thought and attended to my answer. It was the greatest compliment. And I believe that in a world of 8 billion plus people, the thing we want the most is validation. So the thing we want the most is to be acknowledged, to be seen and to be accepted freely, which is being validated of our existence. It's like you're alive. I see you and then there's different levels of validation. It's like I see you that you're a human being and I see that the suffering you're going through.
- [27:25]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yes.
- [27:26]
Lewis Howes
I see the greatness of the goodness in you. I see the kind acts you're generating with the world. I see that you're a good friend. It's like I see that you're a good employee.
- [27:34]
Unknown Co-Host
All these different things.
- [27:35]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Or at the top, I see myself in you. That is real power.
- [27:40]
Lewis Howes
What does that mean?
- [27:41]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
When I look at you, it's like looking in the mirror. I. I see so much of my own experiences. I can relate so deeply to what you're describing that it's like we're one in the same. Right. That's that the moments you have perhaps in self disclosure, right. When someone says to another, hey man, I'm also an aa, right. Immediate. There's an understanding there, there's this, there's a sameness, connection, there's connection. And I would actually go a step further with valid, you know how critical validation is. This sounds like controversial, I see that. But I think it is more important than love. I think you cannot have true love in the absence of having been and having consistently been validated.
- [28:30]
Lewis Howes
Not being validated.
- [28:31]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah. I mean if you, if you've been. If there's not enough, if there isn't validation in the relationship, it's hard to feel loved. Because if you don't feel accepted or seen, what does the person love?
- [28:43]
Lewis Howes
So love is not enough?
- [28:45]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
No. You can love a facade, but that doesn't feel good. I can create all these stories about myself and filter this and filter that and get all sorts of likes and praise, which is a positive judgment. Praise says I like how you look or I like how you perform. Validation says I accept you independent of how you look or perform. Okay. In the absence of feeling seen, feeling accepted, it's hard to feel deeply loved. We don't. I mean, we haven't been vulnerable. We haven't shown ourselves, or we have, and the other person has been like, whoa, that's weird. And we shut that down. Right. And so they love the parts of us that we've shown or dressed up, but perhaps not the entirety of who we are.
- [29:32]
Lewis Howes
I'm curious if you have behaviors that are not verbal to validate someone, whether it be mimicking or copying, Is that a way to someone to be more attracted to you?
- [29:43]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah. So the, the research on. On attraction is often with copying. So we are more attracted to people who copy us, which is like, just if you're going on a.
- [29:54]
Lewis Howes
A first date, always try to copy more.
- [29:56]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Always try to. Right.
- [29:57]
Lewis Howes
So don't do the opposite of what they're doing.
- [29:59]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Right, right, right, right. But, like, don't be, you know, again, I, I, as I said before, I give myself just this little cue copy. That's it. Because if I'm, like, really dialed in on it, it gets awkward.
- [30:09]
Lewis Howes
Too much. You're shifting when they're shifting constantly.
- [30:12]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. But again, we're naturally wired to do this. And so if you just kind of remember it in a moment, that's sufficient.
- [30:21]
Lewis Howes
Yeah. I mean, when you see someone smile, you tend to smile back.
- [30:24]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [30:25]
Lewis Howes
You know, it's like, it's just a quick mimic.
- [30:27]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [30:27]
Lewis Howes
Walk at you. Unless you're, like, guarded that day and you're like, don't look at me. But if you have an open, relaxed state of being.
- [30:33]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's right.
- [30:34]
Lewis Howes
You're more willing to smile when someone smiles at you. A quick gesture. Right.
- [30:38]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's right. That's right. It's. We see it as almost a common courtesy.
- [30:41]
Unknown Co-Host
Yeah.
- [30:41]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
But it is at a deeper level. And when it's used more intentionally to kind of establish connection, it can be used in those ways.
- [30:50]
Lewis Howes
So after attending and then copying, what would be the next level of validation?
- [30:55]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah, the next level up is to say, is to show some degree of understanding. And usually this is, like, logical understanding, cognitive understanding. I can see how you got there. Right. And there's a couple skills here. You can do the. Anyone in your shoes would feel that way. Right. Like, anyone in your shoes would be probably anxious about this set coming together.
- [31:18]
Lewis Howes
That's interesting.
- [31:19]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Last minute.
- [31:19]
Lewis Howes
Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to saying, I can understand where you're coming from, you'd say, anyone in your shoes. Is that what you're.
- [31:26]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
You can do anywhere in your shoes. A way more effective Way to do it is like, oh, my God, yes. I would be so anxious too. Like, me too. This. If you think about going to a doctor and them saying, like, if you're like, yeah, I don't know. I think I might. I don't know if I should get a second opinion. You should absolutely get a second opinion. If it was my child, that's what I would do. Right. We're like, yummy. That feels good, right?
- [31:49]
Lewis Howes
Right.
- [31:49]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
There's this sense of like, okay, I'm. I'm valid. What I'm thinking is valid. It's reasonable. I'm not being dramatic. I'm not being X, Y, or Z. That's kind of what. What these understanding skills communicate. One of them happens to double as a Jedi mind trick. I've just got over here.
- [32:08]
Lewis Howes
What's that?
- [32:09]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Proposing.
- [32:10]
Lewis Howes
Hmm? What's proposing?
- [32:12]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Proposing is when, you know, I was playing that little game in my head earlier where I'm trying to figure out, like, you know, what are you thinking? Why does this matter to you? I don't actually communicate any of that. This is all just in my head to keep me engaged. But if I come up with some stuff, I can throw it out there and see what sticks. I can propose something. You haven't said. All right. It's also known as, like, mind reading.
- [32:35]
Lewis Howes
Can you give me an example? How do we mind read someone?
- [32:39]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
You know, A great example was actually an interview with Oprah and Meghan Markle. Markle, yeah. And Meghan Markle is describing, you know, this. Of being in front of the paparazzi and feeling like she couldn't be her true self. And then she's obviously kind of pained and shamed about having not stood up for herself. And she looks at Oprah and she says, I just. I was silent throughout this experience. I just. I was just silent. And then Oprah being Oprah says, were you silent or were you silenced? Oprah effect, right? That's proposing. That's articulating something the person hasn't said. And if you're really good, if you really nail it, perhaps you facilitate an insight that they didn't even have.
- [33:37]
Lewis Howes
And you might be wrong. But if you're feeling it and you throw out, okay, what about this, this or this? Maybe your intuition picks up on one of them, and it's like, oh, my God, you understand me. You're reading my mind.
- [33:50]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
So this is such a critical point. I'm glad you dialed in on that, because I can't emphasize enough. These are skills, all right? And to develop any skill You've got to strike out. Right. Usually if it's a skill for, like, a sport or something, you're getting coaching on the side as therapists. I'm getting a lot of coaching on the side. And you're just taking that feedback in to sharpen those skills. But with this stuff, we tend to really internalize the feedback and get shut down or feel rejected or like, oh, God, I'm just going to make things worse. And that is a mistake. You have to look at these things as skills that you develop. And you're right. You strike out, you get some feedback. Oprah strikes out all the freaking time. It's amazing. Like, go, watch these. And she's throw things out. And it's just like, no, I wasn't scared. I was humiliated. You know? And she's like, humiliated. She goes back down the ladder copying. Humiliated. Hmm. What was humiliating about it? Attending. She gets more information. She gets more. Then she tries again. Doesn't stick. She drops down that ladder, starts back with just being mindful, and then tries again. Yeah.
- [34:55]
Lewis Howes
You've got a 10. The mindfulness is about attending and copying. Right. It's like, how can I be present with you? Is what I'm hearing.
- [35:01]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
You say, yeah, be curious.
- [35:02]
Lewis Howes
How can I focus on you rather than think about myself or what I'm going through or what I want to say in this moment?
- [35:08]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's right. Yeah.
- [35:09]
Lewis Howes
How do I not. How do I be curious and continue to follow up with asking questions as opposed to acting like I'm smart and having the answers?
- [35:17]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:19]
Lewis Howes
So that's the mindfulness part of this ladder. Attending and copying. But when you propose something, it's like you're trying to understand them.
- [35:27]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
You're trying to show that you understand. That's right.
- [35:29]
Lewis Howes
By proposing. Oh, when you were feeling this when you had your, you know, your child, I'm assuming it was a lot of anxiety, but also a lot of joy at one point. And maybe it can be like, no, it was a nightmare. Like, the whole 24 hours was not joyful. And I thought the baby was going to come and I was going to have this connection, and I didn't.
- [35:46]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah, right.
- [35:47]
Lewis Howes
Some women say that.
- [35:48]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yes.
- [35:48]
Lewis Howes
Another woman was like, it was amazing in this spiritual moment and then brought them to my chest and I felt one with my child.
- [35:54]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah, great example.
- [35:55]
Lewis Howes
So it's like showing a few different options, but you might be wrong.
- [35:59]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Now, here's the thing, though. In a perfect example, what most people do in that first scenario, when they said, oh, you must have been so excited. And the person goes, actually, no, I was. I struggled with postpartum trauma, depression. They go, really?
- [36:12]
Lewis Howes
Oh, next topic.
- [36:13]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Hard.
- [36:14]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:14]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
And they don't, they might, they just don't ever try again to show understanding. They've like, they're like, okay, I don't get it. I don't want to make things worse. And that is the biggest mistake. You've got to stay in the game. Just take it as feedback. Clearly you weren't paying close enough attention. So go back to those two skills. Keep working them and that.
- [36:34]
Lewis Howes
Go ahead and ask questions again.
- [36:36]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:37]
Lewis Howes
Copying. Oh, tell me, what was that like? Yeah, yeah.
- [36:39]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
And so this is like, you know, I talk about each of these skills individually, but the real skill is being able to kind of like move between these things.
- [36:46]
Lewis Howes
Interesting.
- [36:47]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
And know when to. How to correct course correct.
- [36:52]
Unknown Co-Host
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- [38:27]
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- [38:43]
Lewis Howes
So every day we are in relationship with others, when we're around other people, whether we know it or not, we're either validating or not validating someone.
- [38:53]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Right. Or at the worst, we're invalidating them.
- [38:56]
Lewis Howes
Invalidating.
- [38:56]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Right, Right.
- [38:57]
Lewis Howes
And I would say that the quality of our life is related to our ability to validate effectively. It sounds like, like, with the people in our life. Right. Friends, family, teams, employees, bosses, whatever it is, if we're not attending and listening, if we're not able to contextualize or propose opportunities for people, then we're probably not going to be enjoying our relationships that. Well.
- [39:24]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah, that's right.
- [39:25]
Lewis Howes
We're going to be struggling.
- [39:26]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [39:27]
Lewis Howes
And what is the next level from mindfulness to understanding? What is the next level of validation that you talk about?
- [39:34]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
So at the top, you've got these empathy skills, and they communicate mindfulness, understanding, and empathy in one fell swoop. This is powerful stuff. It's also at, like, the top of this. If you visualize a ladder, so you can imagine when you fall down from a high position, it hurts.
- [39:50]
Lewis Howes
Yes.
- [39:50]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
So if you strike out with these, it can be a little ugly. All right. And, you know, there's. They're not all super intense. Some of the most basic ones are just, like, emoting, like, expressing your genuine emotion. Okay. But I'm trying to think of. I almost need to, like, show you what it looks like.
- [40:11]
Lewis Howes
Give me an example. Yeah.
- [40:13]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
There was a great example of Jon Stewart actually talking to the. Talking to Congress on behalf of the 911 first responders, and he's advocating on their behalf.
- [40:29]
Lewis Howes
I remember that.
- [40:31]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
And it's very. I mean, he's Jon Stewart. He's incredibly articulate, very eloquent, passionate. But as he's talking, he starts getting choked up. He just gets so mad, and it's just such an injustice. And like, holy cow, you can feel how much, like, he just so swiftly validated their outrage, their sorrow, the injustice of it, simply through his emotion. Right. He broke character from his, like, standard, you know, John Starr, like, that was not who showed up. It was a person who was deeply vulnerable, and it was clear that he was deeply affected by their experience. And that's kind of what it can show. It doesn't have to be negative emotions like I'm a big one for jumping up and down and like high fiving and hugging. Just like it's breaking character, I think, expressing yourself, emoting.
- [41:30]
Lewis Howes
Okay, what is disclose? What does that mean?
- [41:35]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Like, self disclosure. Okay, so that would be. For instance, I struggled with depression for about a decade. Decade?
- [41:45]
Lewis Howes
Personally?
- [41:45]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah. Yeah. From when I was 15 through about 26. It's one of the reasons I wanted to become a psychologist.
- [41:53]
Lewis Howes
To understand your own suffering, your own pain.
- [41:56]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
I mean, I'm kind of an jerk. Yeah. Like, I wanted to see if I could treat depression on some level, in part because so much of what I received felt damaging in retrospect. I felt invalidated by most of the mental health providers. I saw there was this, and I can see it. I was high functioning. There was this disconnect between, like, you look fine. What's wrong? You know, and the fact that I'm saying, like, no, I'm really struggling. I'm really struggling here. And so I felt dismissed. I felt. I doubted if this was even real. A lot of the time there was this whole narrative of, like, what's wrong with me? I've got everything.
- [42:39]
Lewis Howes
Like, poor you.
- [42:41]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
You know, it's just. Yeah, it was just swirling around my head big time. And fortunately, I got treatment and got better. And now when I work with clients and I've got someone who says, you know, like, you don't possibly. You couldn't possibly understand. You're sitting here and you're like, you're with your degrees behind the wall and you think you've got it all. And I say, yeah, but I had ECT for depression. That's electric shock therapy. Okay? That's a big deal. I understand suffering. I understand being at that level of pain where you would do anything to relieve it. And it kills me that this person I care so much about is in this exact same situation. But I got through it. And I won't quit. I will do whatever I can to see how to get you through it. Okay? There is a connection there. There's. You know, you can feel that again, it's. I see myself in you. I'm not better than you. We're in this together. That's what disclosure can do.
- [43:59]
Lewis Howes
What if you disclose something where you're like, okay, I had a little something, but someone else is feeling like they have a much bigger something. So you're like, okay, I see you're trying to relate to me, but your example of having a weekend of depression or whatever, I'm not making this up, is not a decade of What I've been experiencing, it's not suicide. It's not harming myself. It's not being medicated constantly.
- [44:24]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Right.
- [44:24]
Lewis Howes
What if it makes them angrier by you trying to disclose?
- [44:28]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Remember when I said the higher you go, the harder it hurts?
- [44:31]
Lewis Howes
Oh, right, right, right, right. So it's like, you have to be sensitive in how you bring. Approach it. And maybe it's like, listen, I know this isn't anything you're going through, but I've. I've gone through my own periods of, like, not understanding or feeling pain or feeling sadness or depression.
- [44:45]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's right.
- [44:45]
Lewis Howes
And it's probably nothing like what you're experiencing.
- [44:48]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yes.
- [44:49]
Lewis Howes
But it was. It felt overwhelming for me.
- [44:51]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yes, yes.
- [44:52]
Lewis Howes
So it's approaching it in that delicate.
- [44:54]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's right. Nature. That's right. And I have all sorts of tips in the book around how to kind of repair if you think you've screwed up, how to avoid making some mistakes there. But the fact of the matter is, I can't emphasize this enough. It's a skill. All right. And so if you want to get good at this, you practice it. You practice it. You know, I wasn't coming on podcasts saying that I had had ECT and major depression. Like, I. I figured out a way to communicate that in a way that feels effective to me and focused on the topic.
- [45:27]
Lewis Howes
Why wouldn't we disclose earlier in a conversation? If someone's going through a challenging time, why wouldn't we disclose and say, by relating and mimicking or copying through disclosure? Why wait to go up the ladder to disclose to the very last moment?
- [45:40]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Well, you don't have to wait to the last moment. So that's an important point. With validation, you want to go as high as you can authentically and effectively. So if I get it right away, I could go pretty. You know, I could go for it, Right? Yeah. But if I don't have rapport with the person and I don't know. So I have. I made that mistake actually, once with a moating that I remember with a client whose mother. This mother had come to see me. Her daughter had gone to one of these, like, wilderness programs, which are just a complete scam. She was there for eight weeks, came back and attempted suicide and was in the icu.
- [46:19]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [46:20]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
And mom was devastated. Mom's seeking treatment for her, and she's telling me about this, and I'm allowing myself to just kind of tear up a little bit.
- [46:28]
Lewis Howes
Interesting.
- [46:29]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Okay. Because I am feeling like just, oh, I hate this system and this poor kid. I'm just having all this stuff and I just, I lost control of it. I work with suicide and self harm day in and day out, but I just got worked up. I like lost.
- [46:46]
Lewis Howes
She probably felt you were more out of control than her because you were emotional. Feeling emotional.
- [46:51]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
I got too emotional.
- [46:52]
Lewis Howes
And so she probably didn't feel safe or shut down. She was like, oh, I can't talk about my experience without someone reacting, you know, in a way that you're reacting.
- [47:00]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's right.
- [47:01]
Lewis Howes
Interesting.
- [47:01]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
So that, I mean, that was a mistake. It happens.
- [47:04]
Lewis Howes
But you gotta try stuff and you can't be inauthentic to like, if you're really feeling the sadness of what someone's going through, you want to emote and connect with that person and say, man, I'm so sorry you're going through that.
- [47:15]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's right.
- [47:16]
Lewis Howes
You don't want to be a robot and say, okay, now tell me the next thing.
- [47:19]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
And unfortunately, I think that's where we've kind of been pushed in society and especially with all of like the facades and this. Or we'll disclose, like the things that are really trendy to disclose, you know, that you're struggling with this or that because everyone's talking about, I don't know, menopause now or something. Right. But the other stuff that's not trending.
- [47:38]
Lewis Howes
What'S acceptable in society right now to talk about.
- [47:41]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But maybe the other stuff someone hints at something they're going through that you've also gone through, but that's not something we talk about.
- [47:50]
Lewis Howes
What's not really talked about in society right now. Is suicide not an open conversation? Because I feel like mental health from the pandemic, like menopause, like you said. I feel like sexual abuse, sexual trauma is come a lot in the last five to eight years with me too, and other kind of movements that have brought people more safety to talk about these things. But what is a big taboo topic that people are unable to talk about these days?
- [48:16]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
There's always the trends of I, deep down, I hate myself, which people are not, are not comfortable kind of disclosing or opening up about.
- [48:29]
Lewis Howes
What's the percentage of people in the world that you believe they believe truly hate themselves, that are, I'm truly unlovable, I hate myself, I get everything wrong constantly. No one's gonna love me, I'm an idiot. What's the percentage?
- [48:44]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
You know, I don't. I couldn't say because there's also all sorts of like cultural variations and stuff there in the States. I mean, I think it's really quite high.
- [48:54]
Lewis Howes
Really?
- [48:54]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah. I'd say maybe like 60% of people.
- [48:56]
Unknown Co-Host
60%.
- [48:58]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
I was at this Tara Brock training once. I don't know if you know who she is. She wrote this book on radical acceptance years ago. It's this hardware.
- [49:07]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [49:07]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah. She did this very risky thing, in my opinion, which she's got this, you know, whole audience of folks, maybe 80 folks, all mental health providers. And she says, everyone close your eyes for a second. And I want you to raise your hand if you believe there's something about you, something you done, something specific to your character that makes you unlovable. Okay, now open your eyes. Like, don't do that. But you open your eyes, and everybody's hand was up.
- [49:36]
Lewis Howes
Wow. These are mental health experts.
- [49:38]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Mental health experts.
- [49:40]
Lewis Howes
Trained psychologists or therapists or teachers.
- [49:44]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah, it was one of the most kind of moving, insightful moments of my life, really. It was like, oh, this is deep. Like, this is. There's something going on here. This is cultural.
- [49:58]
Lewis Howes
So, I mean, if. If most people in the States don't love themselves and have a hatred towards self, then how do we learn to validate ourselves in a way that is healing for our mental health and helps us move forward in our lives?
- [50:14]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
It's just like, I almost get worked up because it's something I'm so passionate about. I think, unfortunately, most of us were raised on problem solving. When we came to our parents with a problem, they had a solution. Study more. Let's get you a tutor. Don't worry, you can try out next time. This kind of impulse to make it better, to fix, to fix. And unfortunately, in the process, there's this subtle message that you shouldn't be feeling that way. Stop feeling that way. Okay. Not. It's totally valid that you're disappointed. I get it, man. I get it. Oh, God. I remember being your age. Oh, I once failed a math test, but it was nothing compared to this. But, like. And I couldn't even. My mom came and picked me up from school. I was crying. I can't believe you made it through the day. We just were not raised on that. And so it's no surprise that as adults, when we make a mistake, we struggle to see the validity in our emotions, our reactions. We were not trained to do that.
- [51:20]
Lewis Howes
It's such an interesting balance because I remember feeling, like, supported and encouraged, but also told not to cry and talk about those messages.
- [51:32]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [51:33]
Lewis Howes
But it was like a mixture of both. It was like. Sometimes it was like, okay, I'm here to hug and support and like, watch you cry. And then other times, toughen up, don't cry. It was like a. It was a mixture of both.
- [51:44]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [51:44]
Lewis Howes
And so it was always kind of confusing. Like, what am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to, like, toughen up? Am I supposed to show emotion as a kid? And we. We can't all be like, crying all day long as adults. Also, it's like, we have to be able to regulate emotions and process and, like, have some thicker skin in some scenarios. So we're not just like every little thing triggers us and makes us react emotionally. Our nervous system needs to be calm under chaos. But also we need to be able to express ourselves when we're feeling certain feelings. Right.
- [52:15]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Well, there's a difference between recognizing an emotion, realizing it's valid, and choosing to regulate it rather than express it. Right. So there are plenty of times where I'll feel sad, okay. About something and I'll start going down that loop. You know, the story starts coming together of, like, why I suck and how I should have done something better. You know, it makes sense that I'm. I'm sad. I was really looking forward to this didn't come through. This is. This is pretty. This is upsetting right now. It's not going to be effective to focus on that. I'm going to feel worse if I draw more attention to myself. So how can I take care of myself right now? I probably just need to get through this. And then when I get home, I'm going to take a hot bath. Right. So it's like.
- [53:04]
Lewis Howes
And I can let it out. I can express it how I need to.
- [53:07]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah. Yeah. But there is this. There's. There's not. We have this fear that if we recognize our emotions, they will overtake us. And, like, we'll just be at the mercy of them and express, you know, kind of falling apart all over the place. It's really the exact opposite. When you see the validity in your emotions, you stop wrestling with them. Okay. And you get to be the pilot a bit more.
- [53:31]
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Dr. Caroline Fleck
How could you not be a member and save up to 20%? That's less than 50%. But it's more than zero percent. You're welcome.
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Lewis Howes
How did I not know Rack has Adidas?
- [54:09]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
They've got the best gifts. Gotta show dad some love.
- [54:13]
Unknown Advertiser
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- [54:24]
Lewis Howes
When is the time that we should express our emotions? First regulate our emotions. How do we know which one to do?
- [54:31]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
In each scenario, it's important to feel like you can regulate. All right? So if you're going to get yourself to a place that you can't get yourself back down from, that's a problem. All right? Like, that it's just not going to be constructive for you. And so knowing how to regulate pretty much determines the extent to which you should kind of wallow. Or not wallow, but in general. The interesting thing about emotions, I mean, they're called feelings, because we feel them. And if you just sit with a feeling, like whatever feeling you're feeling right now, if you just sit with it, this is part of self validation. You first kind of notice the emotion, you label it, and then you just try and feel it as intensely as you can without feeding it the narrative. Like, if you do that, if you just say, okay, I'm sad. I'm gonna feel this as intensely as I can. Sadness, sadness. No story about why. Just sadness. Sadness. Feel it really, really squeeze out that sponge. It will decrease. That is how emotions operate. They go up, it goes down. I know you're saying it's not gonna decrease, Carolyn. It's not gonna decrease, but it will. But if you div from the narrative and you just feel can.
- [55:42]
Lewis Howes
And if you suppress the emotion, then what happens?
- [55:44]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
It just gets bigger. It gets hungrier. It's like a child waiting, trying to get your attention, isn't it? Right.
- [55:49]
Lewis Howes
Screams louder and louder to stuff and stuff and stuff and try to contain it. It's going to react in some way, right? Whether it be energetically in your body, your nervous system, eczema, or some other condition later. Right?
- [56:03]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Seriously? Yeah.
- [56:03]
Lewis Howes
It's going to come out in some ways.
- [56:06]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's right. That's right.
- [56:07]
Lewis Howes
Or you're just going to have headaches. Or it's just going to be like, I can't sleep and I'm ruminating. It's going to be expressing itself internally until you express it externally.
- [56:15]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's right. I think what you'll find, you know, if you struggle with being alone, I think that's a real tell for the degree to which you are facing and at peace with your emotions. Because when there's no one else around and your phone is dead and you're the only person you're with. If that is painful and uncomfortable and you can kind of feel things trying to like crawl out. That suggests that you're. You're not. You're not quite at peace with yourself, man.
- [56:48]
Lewis Howes
So how do we get at peace with ourselves?
- [56:50]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Practice a lot of self validation. Interesting that. I mean, this is. I go through these steps almost every single night in bed. I go through these steps of, like.
- [57:00]
Lewis Howes
What'S this process look like? If we don't feel like anyone else in the world is validating us, how many steps are there to self validate?
- [57:09]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
I had breast cancer about a year ago, and I had to go through all of the nastiness, the chemo, the radiation, the mastectomy, the surgeries, all this. And it profoundly affected my daughter. And she felt like after I lost my hair, I was a different person. She's 11, but she has felt this really acutely. And I've had to really work on rebuilding that relationship.
- [57:40]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [57:41]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
And so we're here in LA doing all this great stuff, and I had an article that I needed to get out by 9am this morning. And so she's wanting to watch friends in the hot tub. Like, come on, what gets. What's better than that, right? Like, we're staying in this fun place and I just didn't have time. Like I was able, you know, we did a little bit of time in the hot tub, but she's like, can we watch it in your bed? And I'm like, I gotta write this, you know? And I'm texting my husband, can you, like, read to her tonight? And so I got in bed and I just felt so bad about myself. Like, I felt. So I had to sit there and be like, all right, what am I feeling? All right, this is shame. Okay? Now that I've. The first step is just to acknowledge it. Give it an adjective.
- [58:27]
Lewis Howes
Yeah, Mom. Guilt or shame.
- [58:29]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Or guilt, shame, devastation, disappointment. And then I repeat, whatever that emo. I copy it. I keep repeating it. This is shame. This is shame. And as I'm repeating it, I'm trying to feel it in my body. Where is it? Is it in my chest? Is it behind my eyes? Try and feel it as intensely as you can without reliving the evening or replaying it in my head or all the reasons why I'm a failure as a mom or I've screwed up my kid. I'm never gonna be able to repair this relationship. Here I am now, prioritizing my career. All these things that wanna, like, fight their way in to feed and stoke that shame. I'm just putting them over here. And I'm just. My mantra is, this is shame. This is shame. Feel it. This is shame. Feel it. And it goes up and it does come down. And once it comes down, I need to look for the kernel of truth in that shame. Where is it coming from? Why am I feeling this way? Well, of course I'm feeling shame. I'm not being the type of parent I want to be. That makes sense. There's a lot of societal expectations around being a mother and a working mother, what that's supposed to look like. And I don't feel like I'm measuring up. That shame makes sense. Okay. I get where that's coming from. If I were to look at this from the outside and see a friend in this position, I wouldn't think they were a bad person. I would have empathy for them. Okay. So I do this kind of understanding, kind of looking for the validity in the emotion if it's there at the same time, maybe challenging it if it's not serving me. And then the most important things I do are kind of the last two steps. The first is to take action in some way to self soothe. Okay. So I'm usually lying in bed when I do this, so I'll do like soft touch. So rubbing your shoulder, hand on the tummy, whatever it may be. And then you gotta pay that forward. You gotta do something with that negative energy. So if I'm. If it's during the day, I would go. And I've done all sorts of wild things to like, you know, everything from working out to fostering kittens. Right. Trying to just do something I wouldn't have done that day were it not for this suffering.
- [60:52]
Lewis Howes
Interesting.
- [60:53]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
And last night it was just a loving kindness meditation. So I thought about all the mothers out there who had had cancer and who were also struggling and just like, you know, imagined like, let me take that on and like, let me just imagine them being more at peace.
- [61:09]
Lewis Howes
Wow.
- [61:09]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
And that's it. But so that's like. That's a. It sounds really. Yeah, it sounds kind of exhaustive, but like it's. Oh, it's so soothing.
- [61:17]
Lewis Howes
Well, I mean, it's. It's not exhaustive. I think it's necessary. And it should be as long or exhaustion as it takes until you get back to peace.
- [61:26]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [61:27]
Lewis Howes
There's no better place to be than at peace. And if you're in stress, then it should take as Long as it needs to. Of your time and attention to get back to regulating your emotion through expressing your emotion.
- [61:39]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
It's such a good point. Right? Like there doesn't have to be the stopwatch.
- [61:42]
Lewis Howes
It doesn't be, ah, it should be in two minutes. I should be back to like perfect. No, it's like, it might take hours, it might take days sometimes.
- [61:48]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [61:48]
Lewis Howes
A case like you've been through, it might take a year longer to process a complete transformation of who you've become.
- [61:57]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
That's so validating.
- [61:59]
Lewis Howes
And your daughter thinking that you're a different person, whether it be physically or emotionally or just like energy wise and you having to grieve the person you once were and the relationship you once had with your daughter and create a new person inside of you and a new relationship with your daughter. Right.
- [62:18]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
It was so validating. That was like really good. Proposing.
- [62:21]
Lewis Howes
That's good. That's good though.
- [62:22]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Like, I felt that.
- [62:23]
Lewis Howes
I mean, I feel it with you opening up because I'm like, I want to. I can't even imagine what that would feel like. Having a daughter where you have a certain relationship and then all of a sudden she says, mommy, you're different. What happened? Like, why are you different? What's wrong? Like something wrong or you're. You seemed off or something.
- [62:39]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Nobody else sees it. Like, why doesn't anyone else see it? Like, you're not the same person. You're a different person, but you're not the same person.
- [62:46]
Lewis Howes
I know you. You had to let go of an old way of being physically and transform into a new human.
- [62:55]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah. But you know what's so fascinating? Despite having written this book and knowing all this stuff, there have been times when my inclination has been to say, like, no, honey, I am the same person. Okay? I love you just as much as I did before. And that is invalidation.
- [63:12]
Lewis Howes
You probably love her more.
- [63:13]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
I love her more. Right. But me saying, no, nothing has changed. I'm inval. I'm dismissing her emotions. I'm saying they're wrong.
- [63:21]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [63:21]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
And I have done that. And then I have followed up the next day to say last night when you said this to me, my knee jerk response was, I haven't changed and that is not fair to you. Like, and I said that you must feel like you're grieving a parent that's still alive. Like, that is some heavy stuff.
- [63:44]
Lewis Howes
I know that feeling.
- [63:45]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah. And I. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know how you're dealing with it, so you can screw it up in the moment as I have and every single parent will.
- [63:53]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [63:53]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
But you also have those opportunities to circle back.
- [63:56]
Lewis Howes
Repair. Yeah, Repair and reconnection and bringing it even stronger together the next day or the next month or whenever. Whenever you decide to repair or reconnect and revalidate.
- [64:06]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Right, that's right, because that's what I want her to do as an adult. I want her to circle back with people when she realizes, ooh, that was. That was invalidating or that was unkind. The only way kids can figure that stuff out, really, is through modeling, by seeing it. Right.
- [64:21]
Lewis Howes
That's it. That's it. What would you say, then, is the difference between validation and persuasion or influencing someone? Like, if you want to get something out of someone.
- [64:33]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [64:33]
Lewis Howes
Maybe not in a bad way, but you're trying to create an opportunity, try to create a connection. You try to make an introduction. You're trying to get a deal, whatever it might be. What's the difference between validating versus persuasion and influencing?
- [64:48]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Well, the two are not mutually exclusive in the sense that people are more easily. Are more easily influenced by those that they trust. Okay. That is just a fact. If you trust that I understand what it takes to run this podcast, and I'm the best podcaster in the business, you're going to. You're going to trust my suggestions. You're going to be more likely to be influenced by me. Okay. So those two things kind of do go together, but influence is kind of a change agenda. Like, I'm trying to push you in some direction rather than the acceptance of just what is.
- [65:28]
Lewis Howes
Maybe if you're, you know, the experience with your daughter or if you're working with a patient who you're trying to influence to take a certain action.
- [65:37]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [65:37]
Lewis Howes
Whether it's be in intimate relationship with you, with your daughter or someone in your life or a patient or client that you want them to take action.
- [65:45]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [65:47]
Lewis Howes
How do you then shift from validation to let's take action on the next step together or you need to take action on the next step.
- [65:57]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah. So it just kind of. The one kind of bleeds out of the other, as I kind of described earlier with that one patient. It's this like, oh, my God. You're like, I totally see where you're coming from. I totally valid. You know, this is all valid. I see you, and I think, you know, once that's. And I keep saying once that's landed. And like, to me, it's really clear. Having done this a lot, there is a look.
- [66:18]
Lewis Howes
You feel it.
- [66:19]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
You feel it.
- [66:20]
Lewis Howes
Yeah.
- [66:20]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
There's a moment and after that moment, then there's a door that opens and you can say like, but is there a better way for us to come at this? You know, I'm. I think that if you had. Okay, so I imagine if you could regulate, like, if you could just bring down that intensity, you wouldn't have come at me so angrily. Right. I think that's what we need to work on. Oh, I actually just read this article about there's this technique you can try called the mammalian diet. When you put your face in cold water and you come out, it drops your blood pressure and then you feel better, whatever. So then I tran. At that point I transitioned into yes.
- [66:54]
Lewis Howes
Skill building solutions.
- [66:56]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Let's try this, let's try that.
- [66:58]
Lewis Howes
Interesting.
- [66:59]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
Yeah.
- [66:59]
Lewis Howes
Okay. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life. But you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to make moneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward.
- [67:30]
Unknown Co-Host
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you are matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.
- [68:26]
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Lewis Howes
How did I not know Rack has Adidas?
- [68:50]
Dr. Caroline Fleck
I always find something amazing. Cause the best deals go fast.
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