The Grief Expert Who Discovered a Sixth Stage | David Kessler

Summary

The School of Greatness
Episode: The Grief Expert Who Discovered a Sixth Stage | David Kessler
Host: Lewis Howes
Guest: David Kessler
Air Date: August 10, 2026

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Overview

In this profound episode, Lewis Howes sits down with renowned grief expert David Kessler to delve deep into the process of grieving, Kessler’s groundbreaking addition of a sixth stage—“Finding Meaning”—to the classic five stages of grief, and how grief touches every aspect of our lives. Through personal stories, clinical insight, and practical advice, the conversation explores the transformative potential of grief, the importance of connection, and the key role of meaning-making after loss.

Both men share their personal journeys through trauma and grief, dissecting myths, societal blind spots, and the subtle ways unprocessed grief permeates our behaviors and relationships. Kessler offers actionable insights for individuals, parents, and those supporting loved ones through pain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Nature and Universality of Grief

• Grief as Change:

  • Grief is defined not only by death but by any unwanted change—a breakup, job loss, divorce, etc.
  • “If you grieve well, you live well. Grief is about change. Those of us who can manage change well actually are happier in life.” – David Kessler (03:02)

• Stages of Grief (with the Sixth Stage):

  • Classic five stages: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.
  • Kessler’s addition: Finding Meaning (drawing from Viktor Frankl).
  • Meaning is not about finding silver linings in tragedy, but about who you become after loss.
    • “The meaning is not in the horrible event. The meaning is in us. Who do we become after the horrible event?” – David Kessler (09:12)

• Grief Must Be Witnessed:

  • Healing requires another to acknowledge and validate our pain.
  • “If you are in grief, you need another person to go, ‘That job meant a lot. I'm so sorry that happened to you.’” – David Kessler (03:30, 22:59)
  • It’s essential to find both a witness to our pain and someone who can see our capacity for healing.

Personal Stories: Walking the Talk

• Kessler shares his own devastation upon losing his son, facing up to the reality that no amount of expertise protected him from the pain (05:03-08:00).
• Howes recounts the decades-long burden of unspoken sexual abuse, and the profound release and healing that began once he shared his story in a supportive group setting (27:40-28:39).

The Trap of Unattended Grief

• Suppressing grief leads to automatic, often self-sabotaging behaviors—anger, unpredictability, substance use (44:07-48:21).
• “Anger is pain’s bodyguard.” – David Kessler (44:24)
• “Unattended grief and feelings. Yes, they blew up in that moment because they couldn't manage the bigness of what was going on.” – David Kessler (44:24)
• Signs of unattended grief include automatic reactions, unexplained sadness, and easily triggered anger.

Meaning-Making as the Sixth Stage

• Kessler’s journey to the sixth stage: acceptance alone didn’t feel enough after his son’s death; meaning allowed for expansion instead of constriction (08:00-10:05).
• “I need to witness your pain and witness your capacity for turning it around.” (23:55)
• Examples of meaning-making: using pain to help others, becoming more present in relationships, or advocating for change.

Emotional Expression & Societal Obstacles

• Gender and Feelings:

  • Men especially wrestle with expressing emotions, often feeling forced to “be strong” or suppress vulnerability (38:21-40:55).
  • Movement is required: “Let's take a walk.” Sometimes shoulder-to-shoulder conversations work better for men.
  • “To live life fully. You can't do one without the other [grief and love].” – David Kessler (17:20)

• Judgment of Feelings:

  • Societal tendency to judge or suppress feelings—a “bag of unfelt feelings” (21:19).
  • Key to progress is accepting all feelings without self-judgment.

Triggers as a Map to Healing

• Triggers reveal where healing is needed; avoiding triggers keeps us stuck (54:13-57:04).
  • “Your triggers are a map to your pain, and they are a map to your healing, your freedom.” – David Kessler (55:17)
  • “What we run from pursues us. And what we face transforms us.” (57:04)

Parenting, Relationships, and Grief Literacy

• Teach children to witness and name feelings early, not suppress them (37:11-38:00).
• Offer invitations and boundaries, not control, to loved ones struggling with unresolved grief (66:50-68:23).
• Importance of modeling healthy communication and making room for all emotions.

Present Moment, Anxiety, and Power

• Fear of the future is usually rooted in unhealed pain from the past (73:32-75:46).
  • “If you're in the future, I have enormous compassion because something bad happened that's asking to be attended to.” – David Kessler (74:17)
• Connection and loving presence can only happen in the now.
• “We will give away our power...Find your own power and use it to change something.” (76:53-78:12)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On meaning after loss:

  • “Could it be meaning? I realized...the meaning is not in the horrible event. The meaning is in us.” – David Kessler (09:12)

• On judgment of emotion:

  • “You're either a yes or a no to your feelings. You don't get to order them like you're at the restaurant.” – David Kessler (15:42)

• On connection as healing:

  • “Grief is a severance. It is a separation. And connection heals it.” (23:09)

• On the illusion of control:

  • “Oh, I have no control. I have illusions of control, but I have no control. No control. And what do I have control over? Oh, how I experience this moment, how I experience today, what I say yes to, what I say no to.” (10:16)

• On avoiding feelings:

  • “Feelings aren’t facts. It's just data. It's just information. You have a feeling, let it pass.” (20:00)

• On masculinity and emotion:

  • “…I worked at 9/11. I was there with firemen who were digging for their brothers crying. You want me to tell them they're not being manly? Like, dude, we gotta redefine manhood here.” (34:28)

• On wisdom from pain:

  • “What we run from pursues us. And what we face transforms us.” (57:04)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro to Grief & Six Stages: 03:02 – 05:03
• Kessler’s personal loss & breaking down acceptance/meaning: 05:03 – 10:05
• Application of stages to other losses (job, relationship, identity): 10:16 – 13:55
• Role of witnessing in healing: 03:28 – 04:00 & 22:59 – 24:27
• Processing and Judging Feelings: 19:45 – 21:37
• Unattended grief, triggers, and self-sabotage: 44:05 – 48:21, 54:13 – 57:04
• Howes opens up about childhood abuse and healing: 27:40 – 31:46
• Navigating grief in relationships & family: 66:50 – 68:23
• Anxiety, Present Moment, and Power: 73:06 – 78:12
• Parenting and modeling emotional intelligence: 37:11 – 39:51
• Final lessons ("Three Truths") and definition of greatness: 88:07 – 88:56

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Practical Advice & Resources

• Finding the Right Support:

  • Connection is healing. Whether through friends, professionals, or support groups, sharing one’s story in the right setting is essential.
  • Kessler’s “Tender Hearts” online grief groups—safe space for different losses and situations.

• For Parents:

  • Don’t rush to soothe or fix; witness children’s feelings and affirm their ability to process them.

• For Relationships:

  • Set boundaries for your own health; issue invitations (not demands) for shared growth.

• First Steps:

  • Kessler’s book “Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief” and its accompanying workbook provide structured support.
  • Even if you’re not ready for a group, journaling or workbook exercises help start the process.

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“Three Truths” (David Kessler at 88:07)

1. Love is all that matters.
2. Let the good just saturate in you. Take in the good.
3. Be you. Being your authentic self, though hardest, is the most important.

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Definition of Greatness (88:49)

“Showing up for others and yourself. Showing up fully for others and yourself.” – David Kessler

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Resources:

• grief.com: Grief resources, groups, and certificate programs
• “Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief” by David Kessler
• Online grief groups: Tender Hearts (find on grief.com)

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Listener Takeaway:
Whether facing earth-shaking or everyday loss, the journey through grief isn’t about bypassing pain or simply reaching acceptance. It’s about allowing feelings, being witnessed, building meaning, and daring to fully live again. Grief is not the end of love or joy but the threshold to a deeper, more meaningful existence.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Lewis Howes]

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[David Kessler]

If you grieve well, you live well. Grief is about change. Those of us who can manage change well actually are happier in life. If you get stuck in the breakup, the job, loss, whatever it is, you're not going to do well.

[Lewis Howes]

He's one of the world's foremost grief experts and best selling author who has helped millions of people learn how to heal after loss. Please welcome David Kessler.

[David Kessler]

Grief must be witnessed.

[Lewis Howes]

What does that mean?

[David Kessler]

It means if you are in grief, you need another person to go. That job meant a lot. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

[Lewis Howes]

Why does that need to happen?

[David Kessler]

Because we need to have our pain and our love and our attachment witnessed in someone else's eyes.

[Lewis Howes]

A lot of people have heard about the five stages of grief. You've added a sixth stage of grief. Can you briefly share what these six stages of grief is?

[David Kessler]

Sure. So

[Lewis Howes]

a lot of people have heard about the five stages of grief. If they've gone through something, if they've studied this, you've added a sixth stage of grief. Can you briefly share what these six stages of grief is?

[David Kessler]

Sure. So Elisabeth Kubler Ross, who did hospice and grief and loss, she's the one who came up with him. And what was amazing that she did is she didn't invent something. She observed something in people. And she was like, you know, the sun always comes up in the east, it sets in the west. People seem to go through this denial, I can't believe this is happening. Anger, pissed about this, bargaining, if only I had done that. If only we had tried this. Then depression, the sadness and acceptance. And people thought, like, there's one big acceptance, there's a million acceptances that we're always going through. So those are the stages. And what's remarkable is they work when someone dies, but they work in a breakup, divorce, job loss, big changes. In fact, I always define grief as a change we didn't want. It's interesting, you know, sometimes I'll be talking to someone and they know, like, I maybe have did a lecture at Coca Cola or General Mills or Dow Jones, and they're like, why are you lecturing to grief with them? Do they have a lot of grief? And I'm like, no. Companies want to learn how to manage change. Grief is about change. Those of us who can manage change well actually are happier in life. So I always want people to know, if you grieve well, you live well. If you get stuck in the breakup, the job loss, whatever it is, you're not going to do well. So I was really honored to work with Kubler Roth. She taught me, and I was able to do a couple of books with her and adapt her stages of dying to stages of grief formally with her. And about nine years ago, I thought my grief was long behind me, and my younger son, David, died unexpectedly. And as brutal as you would imagine. I was on the floor. And I remember back then that at some point I thought, I have to find a way through this. What do I do for other people?

[Lewis Howes]

Now you're the grief expert.

[David Kessler]

Expert.

[Lewis Howes]

You've written books about it.

[David Kessler]

I helped a million bereaved parents, and now I'm in it.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, my God.

[David Kessler]

In the epicenter now.

[Lewis Howes]

How. How long were you in it? Were you. And did you beat yourself up for being like, I'm the expert? Why am I still feeling anger, sadness, when I know these steps? I've taught this for years, and yet I'm still in this.

[David Kessler]

There was an observer in me, and there were moments that were really. Those two got separated. Like, I used to tell people, go see a counselor, go to a grief group. I handed that out like candy at Halloween. Yeah. When I had to go to a grief group. Took me three times. I was like, there's traffic. There's always traffic in la. I can't find a parking place. Finally, the third time I went into this grief group, and I was like, grief group, I shouldn't be here. And. Which is a feeling we have in grief. This shouldn't be happening to me. And literally, I had to sit down in a chair with these other parents with a table of books, and my books were on that table.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[David Kessler]

And I couldn't say, oh, that's me. I'm that author. I had to be the father that buried a child. Oh, so brutal, brutal, brutal. And I eventually would notice. Yep, you're in denial. Yep, you're trying. And then I thought, I. I gotta accept this. Someday. And that wasn't enough. I'm like, it can't end with acceptance. I need more.

[Lewis Howes]

Because if you just accept something, then what?

[David Kessler]

Well, it felt. It felt like a low baseline. All right, I accepted it.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, life sucks. I accept it.

[David Kessler]

Life sucks.

[Lewis Howes]

This happened.

[David Kessler]

My life sucks. And, you know, there were a lot of people who were like, this shouldn't have happened to you. And it's like, why? Well, why not me? Like, I'm not exempt from human life. And so it was really. I looked at this and I was like, I know. I've been teaching for years. No matter what you've been through, you can find joy and happiness again. Even though I couldn't see it when I was in it, people would remind me. And I eventually thought about, I wanna. There has to be more. Could it be meaning? And I went back and read Viktor Frankl's book, A Man's Search for Meaning. And meaning didn't always jive with people in grief because it would be like, there's no meaning in a horrible death. There's no meaning in a murder. There's no meaning in the. And I realized. And the work became to understand, the meaning is not in the horrible event. The meaning is in us. Who do we become after the horrible event? And I also thought back to my son, David, who loved my work and he would not have wanted his death to constrict it. And I thought, then I have to expand it.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. If you could go back and think about, who were you before his death and who are you now after his death? What is the meaning? You've given that in your life.

[David Kessler]

I appreciate it even more. Life, I get this, how temporary this is, even more how we don't live and how we don't know who's gonna live and who's gonna die, what's gonna happen. You know, we've talked about control. I had to manage a new layer of digging out some control to realize, oh, I have no control. I have illusions of control, but I have no control. No control. And what do I have control over? Oh, how I experience this moment, how I experience today, what I say yes to, what I say no to. Then it all shifts. Then I have real power to make the most of my life. And I try to be like evidence for people when, you know, I hear the horrific things they've gone through. I get it. And I have hope for you. And they'll go, I don't. And I go, that's all right. I'll hold hope until you can find it. Wow.

[Lewis Howes]

How long did it take for you to find hope?

[David Kessler]

I had a moment, like, at Christmas, I was with my older son at my son's grave, and he said, the first Christmas after, first Christmas after. And he said to me, we are never doing the holidays again.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh.

[David Kessler]

And I had to go. I feel that way, too. But I said, you're still alive and I'm still alive, and this Christmas is not happening. Next Christmas might not happen. Next Hanukkah, all those might not happen. But I said, you know, I would hate to think you and I don't get any more holidays together. So I said, we're going to have to work on this. Yeah. Wow.

[Lewis Howes]

What was the step that you were in the most? Was it anger, bargaining, depression, Denial?

[David Kessler]

Like, a lot of bargaining.

[Lewis Howes]

A lot of I could have done this differently.

[David Kessler]

Or what ifs and if onlys.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[David Kessler]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

What does that do to someone when they're going through a grief? It doesn't have to be a loss of a person.

[David Kessler]

Yeah. It could be a divorce. It could be a break. It could be a job loss.

[Lewis Howes]

What does bargaining do? Saying, oh, if I just would have not gone here that day a year ago, if I would have done this decision differently, or if I would have whatever would. What does bargaining do to someone when they ruminate on it consistently after loss?

[David Kessler]

It is the mind's way. And I want to just put a caveat on this. We have to do that early on. We're going to bargain. It's okay. Allow yourself to bargain. But eventually, it is the mind's way of avoiding reality. It is. The mind would always be guilty than helpless. I'd rather have a Rubik's Cube going. They shouldn't have fired me. I shouldn't have been let go. Da, da, da, da. Than to sit with those feelings and get my resume together and get back out there. This. My mind doesn't want to live in a world that, Wait a minute. I can be for years at a company and be fired. Wait a minute. We can be happy, and then you want a divorce. Wait, wait. Everything's good, and then someone dies. Who wants to live in that world? None of us. But our mind's trying to regulate our nervous system.

[Lewis Howes]

So you were in bargaining phase a lot.

[David Kessler]

I still go back and visit from time to time.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[David Kessler]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

When did you feel like you got to a place of meaning, began to do the dance?

[David Kessler]

When I was working on the book and the Kubler Ross family were saying, we'll allow you to call it the sixth stage. Probably around Two years I was getting glimpses of. I'm going back to life really slowly, slowly.

[Lewis Howes]

How does someone find the meaning in loss?

[David Kessler]

Well, to realize it's not in it, it's in us after the loss.

[Lewis Howes]

What does that mean?

[David Kessler]

And it means things like, what is there to find after the loss? It could be you realize the brevity of life like, this isn't forever. Let me make the most of this. It could be, I want to make sure no one dies that way. I want to create change. It could be I need to find some gratitude for this. It could. You know, it's a million things that we can personalize to the loss. Like, one of the things I remember. And a lot of people have said this experience that, like, my gosh, my son's funeral was packed. He did not know how loved he was. Let me try to take that in now. Let me help other people feel loved now. I don't want to express my love for my friends at their funeral. And I want them to know today, things like that change us.

[Lewis Howes]

Why do you think it's so hard for people to express how they feel about their friends, family, and loved ones when they're alive rather than when they pass?

[David Kessler]

Here's the thing. We can't order feelings. We can't go, all right, I want to take love in, but I'm going to suppress all these feelings. You're either a yes or a no to your feelings. You don't get to order them like you're at the restaurant. So if we want love, we're going to have to allow everything else in. I'll give you a quick one on this that when I was before, all my most of my work was online. I was going from hotel meeting room to hotel meeting room. There'd be, you know, two, three hundred people in my room. Next door would be the realtors. Down the hall would be the nurses. After we were done, after doing a day, the staff would go, hey, what were you teaching? And I'd go, why do you ask? And they'd go, your group was laughing the most. And I would go, grief. And they would go, what kind of grief? And I go, yeah, that kind of grief. What? It's hard for people to understand. The people in my room cried harder, but laughed harder. Grief and feelings and allowing the range, all the colors of our feelings expands our life. I didn't think I'd be here talking to you about, oh, like, loving people more and telling them. But it expands and it's a fuller life.

[Lewis Howes]

There's something you said like, if you're unwilling to experience the grief, then you're unwilling to like fully love deeper.

[David Kessler]

Absolutely. You know, to live life fully. You can't do one without the other.

[Lewis Howes]

Can someone fully experience love at the greatest levels if they're unwilling to go through grief at the deepest level?

[David Kessler]

Grief and love are a package deal this lifetime. You gotta take both, really. And if I play safe, it's not as much joy and plenty of people play safe. I've played safe. I'm sure you. We've all played played safe. And I don't want to play safe anymore. I mean, to me playing safe is the scariest thing I could do. What a waste of life, you know, my gosh, we always want to like play your full game. Don't leave anything behind. And I think, you know, being. Cause I also work with people who are dying and being at end of life. I mean, people have lots of regrets around not living fully and how scared they were really. And it becomes an illusion. You know, we don't regret the things we did. Often we regret the things we didn't do.

[Lewis Howes]

Is there anything you regret right now?

[David Kessler]

Not in the moment.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Not in the moment or in the last, I guess, 10 years. Do you feel like it's not forced you, but allowed you to say, I'm going to really risk and go for it? Whatever it is, saying what I want

[David Kessler]

to say, it is a constant process. It is constant to play the bigger move. That's hard to play the bigger move constantly. Yes, but it's. It's also the powerful move when someone

[Lewis Howes]

has experienced grief and it doesn't have to be a loss of life.

[David Kessler]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

But they've experienced a change that was unwanted.

[David Kessler]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

And then they've ruminated on that change happening or been frustrated on that change for, let's say a year or a couple of years. They continue to be frustrated about the person, the event, the experience that happened that they did not want to happen. What are they robbing by doing that in their relationship to other people, by staying stuck in the grief and not transforming it? What are they stealing within relationship to other people grief?

[David Kessler]

Whatever that change is, we didn't want takes us off one road and puts us on another. And many times we'd rather just stand there quietly on the new road because the unfamiliar road is too hard. And it does rob us of the possibility of living again. And it's becomes that playing small. And you know, I think about the energy that's spent. You know, people go, I'm in A void. I have people in my life, in my family. You know, one person in my life has turned that frown upside down. You know, like, let's not talk about anything negative. I see the energy, like, I think of our feelings as like if you've got a little balloon and you just need to push it down, the air comes out slowly. But imagine a big beach ball that you're holding underwater constantly. Like, it takes a lot of energy to not feel your feelings. And here's the thing I tell people, feelings aren't facts. It's just data. It's just information. You have a feeling, let it pass. And I think something folks don't understand about feelings is we're the first generation that has the luxury of a feeling on a feeling.

[Lewis Howes]

What does that mean?

[David Kessler]

That means I'm angry. Oh, but I shouldn't be angry. Oh, I'm sad. Oh, but I don't have it. Like, people overseas have it. And we have all these half felt feelings that we stopped ourselves from feeling. The anger, the sadness. And we live with this bag of unfelt feelings.

[Lewis Howes]

It's like guilt of having the feelings because someone else has it worse or has it worse.

[David Kessler]

And so if we just allow a feeling, it's going to pass. Now, the illusion that feelings have, especially around loss and change and those big things is when you're in a bad feeling, it's like there's a voice that goes, this feeling's forever. This loneliness, this pain.

[Lewis Howes]

Gosh, I know that. Yeah, I felt that especially in like my teens and twenties.

[David Kessler]

Oh my gosh.

[Lewis Howes]

I felt like forever, this is never going away.

[David Kessler]

I felt that like in my childhood. I am damaged forever. And to understand no feeling is final. No feeling is forever. Your feelings are always going to change. And sometimes what we need is a little nudge to move again. That's why I love doing grief groups online. We find ourselves in each other's stories, you know, And I think the other thing is so many people are all about these days. And you know, one of my lines that I tell people, it's so, you know, connected to me is grief must be witnessed.

[Lewis Howes]

What does that mean?

[David Kessler]

It means if you are in grief, you need another person to go. That job meant a lot. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

[Lewis Howes]

Why does that need to happen?

[David Kessler]

Because we need to have our pain and our love and our attachment witnessed in someone else's eyes. Grief is a severance. It is a separation. And connection heals it. Like everything we know. What helps grief and trauma is connection. So part one is I say to people who, that's horrible. I see the pain. You love that job. You. You loved your wife. It's so unfair. That's so. It shouldn't have betrayed you. You know, I need to witness, folks, we're a little bit getting really good on the witnessing and leaving people there.

[Lewis Howes]

What's the next step after the witnessing?

[David Kessler]

The next step is for me to witness your capacity. That sucks. What? You. I mean, I can't believe they find that sucks. I know you, though. I know you can turn this around. You might not see it right now, but I know who you are. And I witness your capacity. I need to witness your pain and witness your capacity for turning it around. We need that.

[Lewis Howes]

The school of Greatness is brought to you in partnership with Airbnb. One of my favorite parts of travel is when a trip gives you a feeling you can't really plan for. You're walking through a new city in the morning, you're grabbing coffee, you're talking to someone local, and suddenly the place feels a little bit more familiar. These are the moments that stay with me. They're the things that I crave. Not just the photos, but the feeling of being somewhere new and still finding meaningful connection. And that's what I love about Airbnb. When you're away having your own adventure, your home doesn't have to just sit empty either. You can share your space on Airbnb and give another traveler a chance to fall in love with your city the way that you fall in love with the places that you visit. And maybe there's a big game coming up. Or maybe people are coming in for a once in a lifetime concert. They need a place that feels comfortable and inviting. And the income from sharing your home can help pay for your own trips. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] Host August is a great time to reset before the fall rush begins. And your closet is a good place to start. Quince makes timeless, high quality quality essentials like ultra soft organic cotton tees and premium Magnolian cashmere sweaters. They're versatile enough for a casual work day, then dinner out later that night. And my experience with Quince actually starts at home. Martha and I have their European linen duvet cover set and we love how soft and breathable it feels, especially during the warmer months. The quality stood out right away and it gives you a good sense of care that Quince puts into everything that they make. Everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for high quality, not brand markup. Upgrade your everyday go to quints.com Louis for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com Lewis for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Lewis as a loyal listener of this show, you're always challenging yourself to grow, to be better, to keep learning. And Southern New Hampshire University can help. Southern New Hampshire University offers over 200 career focused degree programs online. Plus Southern New Hampshire University has some of the lowest online tuition rates in the us so balancing school, work and life actually feels achievable and affordable too. Find your degree at S N H U Edu Greatness. That's snhu Edu Greatness from my personal experience, I held on to a lot of different grief for many years, but one was around sexual abuse, right? And I've spoken about it many times on the show. But for 25 years I didn't tell anyone about the experience of being sexually abused when I was a kid. And when I finally did, it was in a group setting. And I didn't know I was going to open up about this, but I felt almost inspired, like if, if I don't do this now, I'll probably continue to carry this anger and resentment and pain around. This thing that I really didn't know was kind of running my nervous system for so long. And I did it in a group setting with maybe like 40 or 50 people in the room. And it was an emotional intelligence workshop that had kind of the context of allowing for that to happen. I didn't go there with that intention of like, oh, I have grief. But it was more around growth and I don't think I would have been able to process that without others witnessing that experience where I felt safe right in the witnessing. Right. And it really unlocked the ability for me to start healing that unresolved grief, which didn't happen overnight. It took a process and there was ups and downs and a mess in at all.

[David Kessler]

In those years before you talked about it, did you think about it once?

[Lewis Howes]

Almost daily. Daily for like 25 years. Almost daily. I mean. Or I stuff it away.

[David Kessler]

How much energy looking back now, man did it take to manage that?

[Lewis Howes]

So much.

[David Kessler]

So much energy.

[Lewis Howes]

Wasted.

[David Kessler]

Wasted. And I also believe nothing's wasted. So. But I understand that concept and the moment you my guess is someone before you spoke and you were like, oh, if they can say that, ooh, I could say that. One thing I haven't thought about saying,

[Lewis Howes]

they didn't talk about sexual abuse, but they were opening up. And I was like, wow, they've been through some stuff. Wow, they've been through some stuff.

[David Kessler]

Oh, this might be safe. We find ourselves in each other's stories and we find our healing in each other's stories. So one more piece on this. All grief does not have trauma, but all trauma has grief. So you know, our hundred year old grandfather who's had a great life, it's grief. Yes, pure grief. Sexual abuse that you've had. Sexual abuse that I've had. There's trauma and grief and we're a society that knows how to talk about the trauma. But we also have to remember, wait a minute, there were years lost. There was an innocence gone. There was an innocent childhood. We deserve this lifetime we're never getting. And we have to do a little grief work on that.

[Lewis Howes]

And when you're an adult, it's hard to reconcile with that. You're like, huh, my whole childhood gone. In some ways, you know.

[David Kessler]

Absolutely. And that is recognizing that is the beginning of the grieving process. We gotta be willing to face it ourselves.

[Lewis Howes]

That was probably the scariest moment of my life, was speaking it out loud, speaking in front of people that I, you know, not strangers, but essentially I just met it for a few days.

[David Kessler]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

And in some ways it might have. It was easier. It was easier that there wasn't like friends and family because I. Part of it was, oh, if my friends or family knew this about me, no one would love me.

[David Kessler]

And, and they have so much energy around you.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh yeah.

[David Kessler]

You know, it's interesting. When my son died and I had to eventually go back to work and I had to think about which lecture is going to be my first back. I wanted something that I felt I could manage.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[David Kessler]

My first lecture back was to the lapd.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay.

[David Kessler]

I wanted people who were just going to sort of be there, but like they're not going to therapize me, they're not going to go into. Like, I just needed to like have that first talk and say it, you know, so it's interesting how sometimes the strangers don't have all the baggage that our loved ones do.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, it was interesting. I finally got the courage to tell friends and family and thank goodness everyone received it well.

[David Kessler]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

And had the capacity to experience it and share that sadness for the experience or the sadness for my, you know, the little boy in me that had this experience and, and in some ways it felt like it made the connection stronger with each one of those individuals, which I was grateful for. But I also have heard people say that they've shared grief or trauma tied with grief to friends, family, loved ones and it was not received well. So what happens if someone shares their grief with someone where it says, ah, suck it up or well, it's tough that that happened, but move on or whatever they did. You know, maybe they didn't have the tools or the skills to communicate effectively because they are repressing their grief or trauma or something or it's just not in their capacity. But what happens when you open up to someone who doesn't receive your grief well and it almost traumatizes you more.

[David Kessler]

That's why there's been grief groups since the beginning of time, because we need to find those people who know the truth is, look, most people in grief could look back and go, oh, I didn't do this as well as I could have with someone before I knew. Once grief comes to you, you understand it. But you know, if you're having in a horrible divorce and all your happily married friends, they're not going to get it. Your divorce friends might get it. So one, we have to pick our audience. And the thing is, I love that line about no matter how like people always want, I got, my sister's got to get it, my spouse has to get it, help me have the right words to convince them of the pain I'm in. And I often say that line about no matter how many times you go up and down the aisle of a hardware store, you're never finding milk, you're not changing your sister.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

So let's transplant you to a place with people you can talk about it. It's a grief illiterate world. It's a grief illiterate.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, no, it's. Until you've gone through it and you say, I'm going to learn about it. And a lot of people have gone through it and don't learn about it.

[David Kessler]

They stuff it or get stuck in it.

[Lewis Howes]

They get stuck in it. They don't want to do the work to heal or transform it because in some ways it's scary, it's hard, it's unfamiliar. There's some sense of control and feeling angry or resentment or whatever it is.

[David Kessler]

And it's feelings that are bigger than us and feel like they will take us out of control or we're going to start crying, you know, And I tell people who say to me, if I start crying, I'll never stop. I'll go, I've been with thousands of people. Everyone stops crying.

[Lewis Howes]

You get tired at some point, right?

[David Kessler]

Or, you know, men who goes, I can't cry. It's not. And I'm like, really? I worked at 9 11. I was there with firemen who were digging for their brothers crying. You want me to tell them they're not being manly? Like, dude, we gotta redefine manhood here.

[Lewis Howes]

When someone says they don't have the ability to cry, what are they really saying?

[David Kessler]

I'm judging my feelings. People will say to me, I can't cry. And I go, you can't cry, or you're judging yourself for not crying. The thing is, if we're judging ourselves about we should be crying. And this happens all the time. I'll say, you're judging your feelings. And people go, no, I'm not. And I'll go, well, but you're telling me you should be crying, which means you're not okay feeling what you're feeling. Now there's a should here, which means you got a judgment. Judgment demands punishment. You're going to punish yourself or others, and you're clearly not going to cry. We have to get to a point where we go, you know what? I'm going to accept my feelings. If I cry, I cry. If I don't, I don't. Let me just accept. It's a weird paradox that to feel your feelings, you have to accept them, and then you begin to move through them.

[Lewis Howes]

If someone says, I haven't cried in years, what is it that they're blocking?

[David Kessler]

I would say to them, I think that wisdom is in you, and I think you might want to put some effort into getting curious about it versus judgmental. What would it look like if you weren't blocked? What would your life look like if it wasn't being blocked? What are the obstacles that's keeping you that way? And a lot of us get this learned helplessness that we're like, there's no way out. And that's when we need someone to go, yes, there is. Give me your hand. Yes, there is. We're going to. Look, I can't take you all the way, but I can open the door and show you some stuff.

[Lewis Howes]

Because most people don't have the tools to navigate grief. Well, it seems like they haven't learned it at an early stage or they weren't taught it, or they didn't learn how to discover it. You know, as a. As a parent, to twin girls now, right? How could I demonstrate how to move through grief when they're, you know, five years old and someone doesn't want to play with them or something, and they feel like they had a friend that doesn't want to hang out with them or whatever it is, how can I teach it early with something small so that they understand how to navigate it through life's challenges when they're older?

[David Kessler]

Absolutely. Think of what we said around feelings. So just treat it as their feelings. What mistakes do we do we? You know, I can't believe they don't want to play with me. And your daughter starts crying and your other daughter's fine. What do we say? You should be more like her? Shutting down the feelings. Or that friend's not worth it. Have that feeling. Or that's a silly thing. To shaming them instead. Going back to the witnessing. Wow, it is really sad when someone doesn't want to play with us. Then going to the capacity, you know, it's sad. And I bet we could still have some fun this afternoon. Knowing you and me, we could have some fun. But don't shut those feelings down. Just allow them.

[Lewis Howes]

So how do people learn to teach how to communicate your feelings? When a lot of people feel like feelings are bad, or they don't want to deal with the feelings of another person, or it's hard for them to watch someone cry or scream or whatever it might be, how do we teach that? Specifically in men who I think have never been taught how to navigate feelings.

[David Kessler]

Listen, I got into this work because my mother died when I was young. There was a horrible shooting. And the only advice I got was in the hallway, the stairwell of the hospital, someone said to me, be strong.

[Lewis Howes]

That was it.

[David Kessler]

That was it. Which is no feelings. Take care of everyone.

[Lewis Howes]

Suck it up.

[David Kessler]

Suck it up. Just another version of suck it up. And the problem is, like, let's fast forward to what it's like being with people who are dying. What do we do when we suck it up at the half? The other half is suck it up. Be productive. Go do something. Then we get to our deathbed and go, oh, I did.

[Lewis Howes]

I performed.

[David Kessler]

I did, I performed. But I missed the love. I missed the presence. I mean, the thing is, you know, you and I could have a completely inauthentic discussion like earlier. We didn't have an inauthentic discussion. We had an authentic discussion. And we talked about real things that didn't separate us. I hope it made us feel more comfortable. And that's an illusion that those Feelings are going to ruin something. Vulnerability. You know, Brene Brown, who's like, just. She's been amazing with this. Just, you realize vulnerability is a superpower. It's a superpower.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. You've worked with a lot of different individuals over many years. From your clinical perspective, who has a harder time truly expressing their feelings, men or women?

[David Kessler]

Men. And a lot of times when I work with men, men who aren't comfortable don't know how to do this. They don't know how to do face to face. And a lot of times our spouses and people will like, sit men down and go, which is like the worst thing. When I'm working with men and they don't traffic well in feelings, I'm like, let's take a walk. Men do better sometimes. Shoulder to shoulder, talking.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

Not staring at how do you feel? Right. How do you feel about it? You know, it's like, no, I don't want to hear what you think. I want to know what you feel. Well, if you can't go there, I'll hear what you think. Your thinking's going to reveal your feelings. It's fine.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

I got to meet people where they are. I mean, we all. You know, one of the things that I say to people so much, friends, colleagues, whenever we're in disagreements with the world and the people around us, I'm like, you're in confrontation, argument, war with who you think they should be. If you take all these tools and realize that's what you're projecting, just see them, meet them for who they are.

[Lewis Howes]

What if they're not happy with who they are?

[David Kessler]

Then we've got some power to do something. Because I'll tell you, we have the power to stay. We have the power to go. We don't have the power to change other people. I've tried. I've spent a life trying.

[Lewis Howes]

Really?

[David Kessler]

They don't change and we get frustrated. Doesn't mean we can't encourage. There's little things we can do. I'm going to get further with people. If I say I really like what you did and name the things you do well versus naming the things you don't do well. Yep. That's going to help the other person grow. But I've never nagged anyone into change.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[David Kessler]

Or judge them into change.

[Lewis Howes]

That's not going to work.

[David Kessler]

Not working, not working.

[Lewis Howes]

They're not going to be happy.

[David Kessler]

Got to meet them where they are.

[Lewis Howes]

You talk about this idea of unintended grief, Grief that people carry around without realizing it.

[David Kessler]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Can you Explain how that shows up in someone's daily life and how it impacts their relationships or their ability to succeed.

[David Kessler]

We could say, look at really famous people. Look at successful people. Look at people in your family who have had a horrible acting out situation. Any celebrity, sports figure, like they just act as something, oh, I don't understand, with all their money, how'd they do that? Unattended grief and feelings. Yes, they blew up in that moment because they couldn't manage the bigness of what was going on. Instead of learning how to manage it in all these small moments, we see it all the time. People self sabotage in the big ways because they don't learn how to just deal with the disappointments, the changes, the griefs of everyday life. Like the question you asked about your daughters is there's people who we've all seen them implode who never asked that question. And no one asked that question about them. Their feelings weren't attended to. Right. When people say to me, like, why should I feel these feelings? Well, look at what happens to the people who don't. We turn on the tv, they're about to blow. That's what happens. And it's devastating that you see really good people damage their careers and their lives or use substances or all the other things we do because we don't know how to manage our feelings.

[Lewis Howes]

How does someone know if they have unintended grief?

[David Kessler]

Your actions become automatic. I don't know why I reacted that way. I don't know why I'm so sad. I don't know why I'm so angry. And like people don't understand, anger is often grief. You know, I talk about anger is pain's bodyguard. The anger shows up, but it's about the pain it's protecting. And so a lot of time that pain is unattended. Grief, my friend.

[Lewis Howes]

I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops. Because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now let's get back to the conversation with the US bank smartly. Visa Signature Card. You earn an unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. No quarterly activations, no categories to Track, just unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. Think about those bigger everyday purchases. Travel, groceries, things for the house. Where afterward you realize, I could have earned cash back on that. That's the kind of opportunity that adds up over time. Visit usbank.com smartlycard to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. bank National association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA Inc. Some restrictions may apply. If you're a small business. You know, one great hire can change everything. And maybe it's someone to keep the day running smoothly, find the right producer, or take work off your plate so you can focus on what you do best. Finding that person matters. Indeed Sponsored jobs get you quality candidates when you need them Most. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast that's Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Hiring now then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs that was the trigger for me when I it got me to a place to, to go to this workshop and start opening up is because I felt like for a few years I was getting so easily triggered by the littlest things that would make me angry and it would just get bigger and bigger, kind of like reactions that were automatic. Like I wasn't even able to stop myself from reacting until afterwards. I was like, what am I doing? It's just like, who am I? Why am I reacting this way? And my best friend Matt, who's actually here, we I got in a basketball fight in West Hollywood on the mean streets of West Hollywood, you know, next to Beverly, next to Beverly Hills. And I was getting in multiple, like, altercations on the basketball court probably weekly for like months until I got an actual fist fight. And the guy ended up being okay after all of it or whatever. But it was a big wake up call where my friend Matt was like, I don't want to hang out with you anymore. You keep reacting in this way, right? And he was at a lot of these games with me. There was nothing on the line. There was no big stakes. These were just friendly pickup games. But I was getting easily triggered by the littlest things. And that's when I was like, oh, if my best friend is calling me out on this and doesn't want to hang out with me, like, it's not these people, it's me. You know, I'm the one who needs to work on this, not trying to control everyone else in my life to be a certain way to make me happy. And that was a wake up Call that got me down this whole path of learning and navigating and developing myself. And I think it's going to be an ongoing journey for the rest of my life. That was unattended grief, me automatically getting angry, really, over nothing.

[David Kessler]

I would love to talk about triggers for a moment.

[Lewis Howes]

Let's do it.

[David Kessler]

And before we go there, I just want to say, when we're talking about the sixth stage in finding meaning, I'm just in awe of that story that you have taken this worst event, probably one of the worst of your life, and you are talking about it and helping millions of people who you're not even going to know how much you help them. That's you making meaning. That's you making meaning.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

I mean, it's remarkable.

[Lewis Howes]

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[David Kessler]

Take that in.

[Lewis Howes]

I appreciate it. And it's. You know, I remember I launched this show, school of greatness, 13 and a half years ago, and I went through this kind of workshop before, right? Before. No, it's after I launched the podcast maybe six months in. And it's funny because, you know, I had a small following back then, but after I launched this, or after I did the workshop and started releasing this kind of grief, I guess, I mean, if you call it releasing it or integrating it or whatever, it's. Yeah, I would start getting these emails from people saying, I really liked your show before, but, like, something's different about how you respond and how you interact and the questions you ask. And people were noticing me transforming by just my energy on the show. And I waited maybe six months after this workshop and me starting this process, and after kind of talking to my friends and family about what. What I went through sexual abuse, and I realized, oh, okay, I've opened up to a group of strangers. I've opened them up to my friends and family, but I'm still afraid of kind of my audience or the. Or others knowing this about me. And I realized, like, oh, it still has control over me. And I'm not saying everyone should open up publicly about what they've been through. I don't think that's necessary. But I felt like I was living a lie to my community, that I was communicating about so many things, but I wasn't willing to open up about this. And for me, I felt like it wasn't maybe the final stage, but it was like a big stage of me on kind of learning how to heal because I was so afraid of the opinions of others. I was so afraid of, what are people going to think about me? Are they Going to stop listening to me? Are they not going to like me? Are they going to judge me? Whatever it was, I was living in fear, right? And that I, I opened up about it publicly on my show. And I remember I recorded it and I waited months to post it. I was so afraid. But I was like, man, this fear is essentially holding me back. It's kind of controlling my, my life. And so I, I posted it and it's still 13 years later, the most downloaded episode I've ever done. A whole book came from that years later called the Mask of Masculinity. Because I had never seen a man open up about sexual abuse publicly. I'm sure it was out there, but I never witnessed like a big athlete talking about this or it being a thing.

[David Kessler]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

And then later, I think Oprah did a whole segment where all these men talked about sexual abuse, but I hadn't seen this. And so I was like, I felt like I was the only one had been through this because I never talked about it. I never heard anyone else talk about it. So was the most terrifying thing, even though I learned that one in six men have been sexually abused, one in four women have been sexually abused. And. But for men, there's usually nowhere to talk about it. You know, it's horrible no matter who it happens to. But most men never open up about, never talk about, never have a safe space or feel like they're able to. And so for me, it was a very healing experience knowing that others then came to me as a safe space to share their story. And I think that's where the meaning, I think you were talking about the meaning came from, for me was like, oh, me sharing it. And now I get messages so frequently where people say, you know, I went through a similar thing that you went through in childhood. And I already know what they're meaning. They might be afraid to say it, but they feel comfortable saying to me, I've been through some similar stuff as you. I see myself in you from what you've been through as a kid. And I already know that this man has probably never spoken about this. And to be a sacred space for them in that moment so they can start hopefully the process of healing.

[David Kessler]

And that's such a hallmark of grief and shame and trauma. You know, even I remember that in my childhood, I was sure I was the only one that had a parent die. Really? Wow. Like, well, I had a formula. My. My friend's parents were alive.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

I mean, I, you know, and is that feeling of. It's only Me. And I often get asked what my definition of healing is. And to me, healing is when the event no longer controls you. Yes, that's exactly what you did. You were no longer going to be controlled by that event.

[Lewis Howes]

And I realized I still was because I was afraid to talk about it to certain people.

[David Kessler]

Which is it controlling you?

[Lewis Howes]

Exactly. So I was like, okay, I need to release this fully. I need to have so much courage, Right. And talk about this, no matter what the consequences might be.

[David Kessler]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

Like, if everyone unfollows me, at least I'm free.

[David Kessler]

Right?

[Lewis Howes]

Because I didn't feel free.

[David Kessler]

And listen, I mean, I remember seeing you years ago and seeing how you've changed. And, you know, the thing is, you and I casually sitting here discussing sexual abuse that we both had. I promise you, 10, 15. I couldn't imagine, like, we're just going to. That's just going to be a casual.

[Lewis Howes]

Just brought up.

[David Kessler]

But it doesn't control us.

[Lewis Howes]

No, it doesn't.

[David Kessler]

It doesn't.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

I want to get to triggers for a moment. So triggers. You know, we live in a world now that it's all about trigger warnings. And it is a version of let me control the outside. My loved one died. I can't go by that part of town. She divorced me. I can't be with those friends. Whatever it is, we have those triggers. And the game now is sort of trigger warning, you know, please don't wear white shoes. That freaks me out. It triggers me. And the problem is I'm under the illusion that the problem is out here and I'm trying to control my environment. You thought you were going to beat those guys up enough to control. You know, you're trying to fix it all on the outside. And the problem around that is when people come to me and say, I don't know where to start with grief and trauma, I go, what triggers you? Your triggers are a map to your pain, and they are a map to

[Lewis Howes]

your healing, your freedom.

[David Kessler]

We come with a map. Each of us has a map. Right now, I don't know what to work on. You got a map? You got a map? And for us to realize, if I start going, all right, no one wear white, you know, tennis shoes, what's going to happen is I'm going to be in emotional avoidance, and I'm teaching emotional estrangement. I'm going to begin to live in a world where nothing can upset me. And going back to what we talked about, I want to help people build capacity. Yeah, those white shoes are fine. It's good Someone in white shoes years ago was a jerk. But I'm in the moment now, and I can see you're not. So to understand, you know, sometimes when I was doing, like, events and conferences, someone would run out of the room, and they'll go, it's too painful in that room. And I'd go, I get that. Take care of yourself. Leave if you need to. Don't have the illusion you're leaving. The pain in the room, it's running out with you. So the dance is there whenever you're ready.

[Lewis Howes]

Until you face the trigger, you're always going to be, I guess, a prisoner of that trigger.

[David Kessler]

Of that trigger.

[Lewis Howes]

It's going to chase after you or be with you. No matter what your addiction you're chasing or connected to or how much sex you have or how much sugar you eat or how much whatever drug of choice, how hard you work, you know, being a workaholic or whatever it is, that trigger and pain and trauma, or whatever it is, the association around that is going to continue to flow, follow you right until you turn around and face it.

[David Kessler]

Well, here's my thought. Whether we're talking about triggers or feelings or grief, trauma, what we run from pursues us. And what we face transforms us. You and I have been transformed by our pain.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[David Kessler]

And we also spent years running from it.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, man. Years. We know both roads years, man. And it was. It's funny because I thought the more I accomplished, the better I would feel. But it was almost like the more I accomplished externally, the worse I felt because it didn't take the pain away.

[David Kessler]

Success is a great deodorant. Yeah. Kind of covers it all up, you

[Lewis Howes]

know, but it's even stinkier.

[David Kessler]

And we know we smell.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. And it's like the shame grows. Oh, I still don't feel like I'm good enough. I still don't feel like I matter or I'm worthy even though I'm accomplishing or I have whatever marker to say that I'm accomplished something. And I still don't feel lovable or I still don't feel enough. It's like, what is that in us? When we chase something so big, we accomplish it and we still don't feel enough. What is that?

[David Kessler]

Because we're trying to outrun our past, our feelings. And we think, oh, that award, that game, that success, that amount of money in the bank, whatever it is. And it can even be, you know, all the things we talk about, drugs, sex, da, da, da. It can be success. It can be service. It can be you know, there's plenty of people I know that are like, these amazing volunteers who couldn't take care of themselves if they tried, you know, and the reality is to allow ourselves to say it to one other person. And then all of a sudden, we just need someone to go, oh, you're still okay. You're not the first, and unfortunately, you're not going to be the last. And we all have struggles. Yours looks different than mine, but we assume the people we see on social media or TV or in sports, they don't have them. And then we see something go wrong, and we're like, what? How can that be?

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, they have all the money and success.

[David Kessler]

Right? Right.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

And I'll tell you, there's a line that Freud said. Freud was once asked, would he rather work with someone who's poor or someone who's rich? And he said, always rich.

[Lewis Howes]

Why?

[David Kessler]

And they said, why? And he said, because the rich person knows that happiness is no longer in the money. The poor person, I have to convince the poor person thinks that when I

[Lewis Howes]

make money, I want to be happy.

[David Kessler]

It's going to be the key to everything. It's going to be the key to that hole, the emptiness, all of that inside of us.

[Lewis Howes]

I know that feeling, too. Once I started making money, it didn't take the pain away.

[David Kessler]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

It didn't make me feel like I healed the hurt boy in me or I was less angry or frustrated or resentful.

[David Kessler]

But you couldn't have told that to your poor, unsuccessful self growing up.

[Lewis Howes]

You know, like, this is going to solve my problem.

[David Kessler]

Solve. Right.

[Lewis Howes]

It doesn't solve. It almost amplifies your problems.

[David Kessler]

It does. The stakes become higher.

[Lewis Howes]

I'll speak from personal experience. When I didn't feel like I was in a healthy space internally and I had money, I was heightened, like, anxiety around me, and I didn't want to lose it. And I felt like people were trying to take it or use me in some way. It was like, oh, now that they know that I've made some money, are they really my friend? It's all these other interpretations around the triggers that I still had.

[David Kessler]

Because think about here we have unlovableness, unfairness. No one will love me. I'm not worthy. Da, da, da. If I just get money, that's going to help. And we get money and then we go. They're still here. Yeah, they're all still here. The success, the money, the whatever, didn't do it. And that's when you need someone to work with you who's Going to go, all right, since you've done all this, could we just talk about those? Gosh.

[Lewis Howes]

Of all the people you've worked with in grief groups, from high profile individuals to people who are completely unknown, going through their own experiences, what is the number one thing that most people struggle with within themselves that they believe they're not? What?

[David Kessler]

Worthy? Whole. They're not worthy and they're not whole.

[Lewis Howes]

Why are so many. Why do so many people believe they're not worthy and they don't feel like they're whole?

[David Kessler]

Because I think we're raised to do more, to be more, to become someone forgetting you are someone. Like, your worth is not by the doing. Your worth is just because you're here on the planet. Money's not bad or good. It's kind of neutral. Success isn't bad or good. It's neutral.

[Lewis Howes]

How does someone separate being in a relationship and needing to provide for that relationship and that family versus not performing well or not getting the results they wanted? How do you not interpret, oh, I'm not good at this yet, but I'm still a worthy person. How do you navigate both those worlds? Like, I'm not performing, I'm failing, I'm struggling here, but I'm still whole. How do you know that?

[David Kessler]

Hopefully we have people in our life that love us no matter what. I know a million people that I've. A million's exaggeration. But a lot of people over the years who like, literally are out doing with someone at home going, I wish you were home more. And they're like, well, when I get successful, I'll be home more. And I always say if you're not home more now, when you get success, you're going to be gone even more. Then it's just going to be another country you're going to instead of across town. It's about realizing this is what matters. Our loved ones matter. You know, to really understand this is all we got. It's just a Monopoly game. It's a Monopoly game. Play well. I'll talk strategy with you around. Playing well. But let's not believe we're the game. We're just playing the game. We're not the voices in our head. We're the one listening to them. And sometimes we might not want to listen to them so well,

[Lewis Howes]

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[David Kessler]

Invitations and Boundaries what if they don't like boundaries? Well. Well if they don't like boundaries, you're not doing boundaries for you, for them, you're doing boundaries for yourself. The people who cross boundaries Are ourselves. You can't cross my boundaries. I can only break my boundaries by

[Lewis Howes]

allowing it to happen.

[David Kessler]

Yeah, by allowing it. Don't go over there. I told you. Da, da, da. I'm going to lecture you. No. Hey, dude, if you want to be in my presence, we don't do that. So there has to be a gentle. You know, I'm learning, I'm growing, I'm changing. To your wife, to your husband. I'd love you to come do some of these things with me. Could we go to therapy? Lots and lots of invitations. At a certain point, we have to go. They're different from me. And is that still workable? You know, in the old days, I think in relationships, we had this belief that we should be exactly the same. We both need to love this. We both have to. We can't have different interests or. That spells trouble. Well, you know what? Maybe you do like those things. And I'm going to, like, love that you're you, and I'm going to do these things, and we can have our together things, and we can have some separate interest, and that's okay. Yeah. And there's a time some people could outgrow a relationship. I just want to make sure they've really done the invitations and done the work and things like that.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. You wrote that you can only avoid grief by avoiding love. What do you mean by that?

[David Kessler]

And avoiding life. And avoiding life. You know, I'll tell you, some people. You know, I've heard your son dying must have been the worst tragedy. It's actually not really. The worst tragedy would have been to have come to this world and not met him.

[Lewis Howes]

Mm, my gosh. Yeah.

[David Kessler]

That's the worst.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[David Kessler]

I got to know him, and I get to know all these people in my life now. And, you know, it's one of the things that I think. So I ran into a neighbor who I hadn't seen actually was my boss 30 years ago, and she said to me, oh, my gosh, you live so close. I'd be friends, but it would be too depressing to be friends with you.

[Lewis Howes]

You.

[David Kessler]

And I said, you'd be surprised. My life isn't that depressing. I'm actually a really fun, loving person, and I have a great time in life.

[Lewis Howes]

And I think just because she says you. You speak about grief all the time.

[David Kessler]

Yeah. Yeah. She's like, okay, that's. You know, I must want to sit around going. Seen any good deaths lately? I don't know what she imagined. Something crazy, but it's that idea that I no longer have that. Those needs that pick me, that. Let's do that. Let's find our way. Like, that life is okay. And do you want to walk together? Let's walk for a while. Oh, you want to go? All right, I'm going to go. This, I mean, it's just becomes this adventure we're on. And one of the things that I've learned is because I see so much death, it doesn't make me go, what's the point? Instead it makes me go, let me take this in. You know, like, in the worst scenario, today could be my last day. I mean, I'm with people all the time that were doing something and then they died. If today's my last day, I have a couple of choices. If I haven't been current, I can dart out of here and start saying, I apologize, I'm sorry, and make amends, and blah, blah, blah. But if I've been current, I can go, wow. If today was my last day, this is my last podcast. Wow. Let me go deeper. Let me not waste this moment. Let me not waste their time. Let me truly show up for life. And then it'll die today. And I get to have a great day because someone's going to die, someone's going to divorce, a breakup's going to happen. I mean, going to happen. And let me be present for the moments when it does and the moments when it doesn't. How many of us have ruined good moments when nothing bad was happening because of all the moments we didn't attend to?

[Lewis Howes]

Right. How does someone know the difference of them going through grief or being depressed?

[David Kessler]

You know, it's interesting, I always say that is really a question for a psychiatrist. And I encourage people to see a psychiatrist who knows grief. Like, we even have a grief educator certificate program. And I'm so proud when psychiatrists come through, because you can become a psychiatrist, a therapist, a coach, without one hour of grief education. Crazy. And so it's important to know there's different markers. You know, when you're clinically depressed, that's one state that is very different from the sadness of grief. But we also live in a world that we don't use the word sad anymore. Oh, my gosh, Louis, we were so depressed at lunch yesterday. But you're not now. Did you go through a drive through depression center? What did you do? I mean, we don't go and think about it this way. If someone said, I'm so depressed, my sister died, Go see a doctor. You need to get something done about that. But if I said, I'm so sad my sister died. Of course you are. That's your sister. Notice there's less to fix when we allow our feelings. But depression's very serious. See, a psychiatrist, a good psychiatrist can tell you grief versus clinical depression. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

For anyone that feels afraid of the future, whether it be their relationship, their health, the economy, wars, any number of things that could cause uncertainty or fear in someone, how can they use this information that you have in your work and your books to navigate the uncertainties of the world for the future? The uncertainties of loss, of anything.

[David Kessler]

So the biggest thing that I think about is anxiety. Fear of the future. Really challenging. And you're in the future now. Why are we in the future? Because something bad has happened in our past. We are not fearful. We are predicting. We are trying to manage what's going to happen here. Because if the. It's the fan. I need a plan. That's why we're catastrophizers. We're this, we're that, all that. We're protectors. And if you're in the future, I have enormous compassion because something bad happened that's asking to be attended to.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. To prepare.

[David Kessler]

And that past needs attention. And if you're in your future, do you know what?

[Lewis Howes]

You can't be in your present.

[David Kessler]

And loving and connecting. If love and connection helps us and we're in our future, we're in trouble. So many times I'll be working with someone who's saying they're really anxious and they go out and they see their friends and it doesn't work out well, and I'll go, what happens? Well, I sit down with my friend, I tell them how anxious I am, and I go. And then eventually they say, nice to see me, and leave. And I go, so here's the plan. You got to go. We're going to pee together for an hour today. I'd like to take a chunk of that and just tell you what's going on with me and then really keep me accountable. And then I want to hear what's going on with you, and I want to be really present for you, too. Then we suddenly have a connection. And instead of one person living in the future, two people have brought themselves into the present. Changes everything.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

Loving connection only can happen in the now.

[Lewis Howes]

If someone is always stressed and worrying about the future, what is that signaling about that person? Is it that they have a pain from the past that's unresolved?

[David Kessler]

Something from the past, really, that's asking for their attention? And they're playing it out that way. Listen, and it doesn't mean you can't be really productive and really successful and really doing amazing things in the world. It's how do we do it? I mean, I've been successfully doing things in unhealthy ways and in healthy ways. And it feels different on the inside. And I know that. Yeah. And I mean, we're all struggling. I mean, believe me, I'm sure I could say it about too. Like, whatever you think, we got stuff going on, we always do. And if we don't today, it's coming tomorrow, and we'll be able to manage it.

[Lewis Howes]

What's your biggest fear for humanity over the next 10 years? Based on what we've been through with COVID and wars over the last six, seven years and the predictions of the future, with all the changes of AI and financial currencies and wars and conflict, what is your worry about humanity's ability to be loving and in the moment?

[David Kessler]

But we will give away our power. We. We'll give away our power. Whether it's to our government leaders, whatever it is, we're going to give our power away or to AI. Listen, I got an AI. I really made sure it didn't say generic stuff that you can find anywhere. I created it just from my work. It's better for the environment. It helps people in so many ways. Look, I can be up in the middle of the night. If I happen to be scrolling and seeing there's a woman in Serbia whose child just died, I can get on WhatsApp and call and talk to her in Serbia for an hour right after her child died. Can't do that often. AI helps me help people at 3am because grief's 24 hours a day. So that's a really wonderful thing about AI if it's curated and safely done. On the other hand, you know, it can take over the world. And you know we're in an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie because we gave our power away to the people who are managing it. Find your own power and use it to change something.

[Lewis Howes]

If you could prescribe that every person watching and listening master one skill to have more. Love, harmony, peace for the future. No matter what happens, as they're going to go through different challenges in life, they're going to go through different grief and losses and unmet changes, what's the one skill you would prescribe everyone to learn or master to be able to navigate the uncertainties of what will happen in the future?

[David Kessler]

Get support. Get support. You know, it's a strange thing. I had a flat tire. And when I got new tires, I bought a tire plan. I bought a plan for my tires in case I hit a pothole. Do you know that sometimes I don't treat myself well? But I protected my tires. So if we can get support. Doesn't have to be a therapist or a grief group or divorce group or whatever it is. Just talk to a friend, share. Find a way to connect with someone else. Connection is everything.

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[David Kessler]

Just connect with one other person. And if you can't connect, go help. Go volunteer.

[Lewis Howes]

That'll help you a lot. Your book's called Finding Meaning the Sixth Stage of Grief by David Kessler. I want you guys to check this out for me. When I learned how to navigate grief and loss and heal, it created such a level of peace and abundance inside of me. And it didn't mean I was like perfect overnight. And it didn't. You know, I still have stresses, but when I learned how to navigate these skills it gave me, it unlocked my life in ways I never knew were possible. So I want people to get your book.

[David Kessler]

And I also did a workbook with it because I want people go, what's grief work? It's like, this is like me sitting down with you at your kitchen table. We're going to do it together.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. And I think the workbook is probably the best place to start because if you're afraid to speak in front of other people, then it's almost like you have a, you know, you working with them through a workbook where you can be introspective rather than in a group setting. But like you said, the best place to go next is with a group, whether you're paying for a therapist, you're meeting a small group somewhere and you have aboutgrief.com has tenderhearts online grief groups.

[David Kessler]

We have about. Grief.com is a free video that just teaches you about grief. My website is grief.com you can find our tender hearts grief group there. We got 26 groups around people dying, whether it's a brother, sister. We've got a faith group, an afterlife group. We even got an anticipatory grief group for people whose loved ones are sick.

[Lewis Howes]

And these are all online.

[David Kessler]

All online. And we've got like a time for Australia, a time for Europe. You know, we've really hone that really well to help people. No one's turned away for lack of funds. We make sure everyone has access to that.

[Lewis Howes]

That's cool.

[David Kessler]

And the other thing you can find on grief.com is we got an amazing grief certificate program. People who want to turn their pain into purpose. You know, not everyone can do books or podcasts, but maybe you could be the person in your neighborhood that people know how to come to. Or maybe you could be the therapist or the coach that becomes really good and understands the changes we can make when we get this part of our life.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. Okay. So that's [e-mail].

[David Kessler]

grief.com. You can find it all there.

[Lewis Howes]

That's amazing. And what's the difference between online grief group versus in person?

[David Kessler]

You know, I was the first to say when that whole thing started. I was like, I don't know that emotions will translate. And someone said to me, have you been to a movie? Like, emotions translate. But it's great because I watched the struggle for years of people who went, I want just a suicide group, but I'm in a group of widows. Or my local one doesn't have a group for siblings or, you know, I'm a young widow. It's hard for me to be with older widows. We can do them. Wow. We can just do them online in your time zone. So easy.

[Lewis Howes]

And does someone, when they join one of these grief groups, do they go once a week, once a month? What is this process?

[David Kessler]

We have it where it's four times a week that they have the options to attend. And it's like, you want to go into a group? Great. Two times a week, you can see me working with one person. Someone volunteers to work with me. Everyone else watches, and people go, why would that help? That person asks a question, you didn't know you needed the answer, and it changes you. And then on Fridays, we have a different topic because there's not one voice in grief. Not mine, not yours. And it's like, let's take a topic and discuss it. How did you handle guilt? How do you handle being happy? How do you handle the things that people say that are cruel?

[Lewis Howes]

You know, it's interesting. I was coaching someone at an event a few weeks ago, and it was a widow, a woman who had lost her husband that she was in love with. And I think it was about maybe 10 years ago. And she's remarried, she's got a blended family, and I think new kids as well in the remarriage. And she was like, one of the hardest things for me has been, like, feeling good, like, accepting that I feel really good where I'm at now. I feel guilty being happy.

[David Kessler]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

When other people are not happy, they're still grieving. They feel like you're never going to be able to find someone again. You're not allowed to have love and joy and happiness again when you've lost your husband or someone close to you. And she goes, it feels really good to finally start to be able to say, I'm worthy of feeling happy again and love again, even though I lost a great man that I loved as well.

[David Kessler]

That's a story we often play in our mind of disloyalty. Look, really, I'm going to be happy again after my son died. That doesn't sound like a good parent. But I had to really think about who my son is, and am I being loyal to him by not living again? Is that really what he would want? And I'll tell you, I can imagine. I don't know what the afterlife's like, but I could imagine, whatever it is, how many years from now, decades. I arrive in the afterlife and I meet my son. It's great. We finally see each other again. And he says to me, oh, my gosh, tell me about Earth. Wasn't it incredible? And I go, well, I grieved. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm sure you did. That had to be hard. It was really brutal. I get it. And what about, like, I missed the food? Was the food. What else? Did. Did you go places? Did you travel? And I'm like, no, I just grieved. My son would be like, dude, life's too, too incredible to miss. And here's the thing. It's a decision. She made a decision. You know, I live in a cute little neighborhood with these little small houses, and I can imagine, I knew there was a moment where I could have been the grief guy that never left his house again. And I could imagine the teenagers driving by going, is that a haunted house? No, it's a grief expert whose son died and he never came out again.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, my gosh.

[David Kessler]

I could have seen that. But it was a decision to live again.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[David Kessler]

And each of us, in small ways and big ways, not just around death, have that decision every day. Do we show up? Do we live again? Do we sink? Every one of us is deciding that constantly, no matter what your circumstances are.

[Lewis Howes]

I've got a couple final questions for you, David, but I want to acknowledge you first for not being stuck in your house after grief and coming out and finding ways to expand and live, even with more joy, more love, more acceptance, and continue to be of service to so many people who are going through this and ultimately finding meaning in the process. Because I think that's does what makes Life richer. And when I can look back on my life, you know, I don't like that the five year old in me had to experience sexual abuse. But I can find meaning now. And not say I wish it happened again, but I can find meaning saying it did happen. And because I'm able to process it now and find meaning, hopefully I'm able to help other people by being able to sit with them or being able to share this story with you without it crippling me like it used to.

[David Kessler]

Right?

[Lewis Howes]

And so that meaning that you've created is really powerful. And I acknowledge you for that. I have two final questions for you. This is called the Three Truths. Okay, so imagine, hypothetically, you get to live as long as you want, but on the final day, you have to take all of your work with you. So this book, this podcast, everything you've ever created, everything you create from now until that day is gone. Not from this world anymore. But you get to leave behind three final lessons with the world that we would get to keep. I call it the three Truths. What would those be for you?

[David Kessler]

Love is all that matters. Let the good just saturate in you. Take in the good. We know how to take in the bad. Take in the good and be you. It's a strange thing. Like those of us who have really done this work know being you sounds like the easiest thing in the world to be your authentic self. It's the hardest thing to let go of all the who we think we should be, just be ourselves. I still work on that all the time. I'm going to not only leave that behind for everyone, I'm going to try to continue to take it in.

[Lewis Howes]

That's beautiful. Final question, David. What's your definition of greatness?

[David Kessler]

Showing up for others and yourself. Showing up fully for others and yourself.

[Lewis Howes]

David Kessler, thanks for being here. Appreciate it.

[David Kessler]

Thank you for having me.

[Lewis Howes]

Amazing, my friend. I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and stream of you moving forward. And I want to remind you of no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and Sidekicks or auto and Home insurance. With usaa, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply.

[David Kessler]

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[Lewis Howes]

Mm, yeah, but I'm not itching to

[David Kessler]

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[Lewis Howes]

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