The Hidden Cost of Success Nobody Talks About | Rainn Wilson

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Hidden Cost of Success Nobody Talks About"

The School of Greatness with Lewis Howes | Guest: Rainn Wilson
Date: March 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this emotionally resonant episode, Lewis Howes interviews actor, writer, and thinker Rainn Wilson (best known for playing Dwight Schrute on The Office). The conversation dives beneath the surface of conventional success, exploring the unseen spiritual, psychological, and emotional tolls of fame and ambition. Both men share candid stories of personal pain, grief, addiction, therapy, spiritual searching, and the journey toward authentic self-acceptance. Through examining Rainn’s struggles during and after The Office, the impact of his father’s death, and the ongoing process of healing, the episode offers listeners hard-won wisdom on finding peace, self-worth, and enoughness, regardless of external achievements.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Authenticity, Vulnerability, and the Real Journey (02:01–05:10)

• Rainn emphasizes the importance of being authentic:

  “For most of my life, I was an addict. I was a people pleaser, the class clown. I just wanted people to like me... Constant comparison.
  And I wasn't always authentic.” (Rainn Wilson, 02:44)

• He praises Lewis’s approach in writing and podcasting for cutting through “bullshit” and giving actionable advice.
• Rainn insists that messages about greatness only reach people when they’re rooted in vulnerability and truth.

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2. The Emotional Cost of Success & Fame (05:10–08:43)

• Candidly recalls The Office’s rise and the chaos of suddenly ‘making it’.

  “Fame is a very weird thing. That’ll fuck you up, number one. Number two, I wasn’t happy with what I had ... When is it enough? I wish I could have just taken a deep breath and be like, this is enough.” (Rainn Wilson, 05:19)

• Even at the height of success—awards, recognition, strong relationships with cast—he was consumed by desires for more and unable to access gratitude.

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3. Grief, Spiritual Lessons & the Loss of a Parent (08:43–20:52)

• Rainn opens up about losing his father shortly after COVID began and how it deeply shifted his worldview.
• His father’s two greatest lessons:
  • Uplift every room you enter:

    “He made every room better. He would always uplift someone... That was really special.” (Rainn Wilson, 08:55)

  • We’re spiritual beings having a human experience:

    “Our reality is spiritual... we are heart-based beings. We get 80, 90 years, he got 79.” (Rainn Wilson, 09:54)

• On the hospital moment of his father’s death:

  “That’s not my father. That is the vessel that carried my father for 79 years... the spirit that we bring to interacting with one another, that’s our reality.” (Rainn Wilson, 12:53–13:52)

• Both Rainn and Lewis reflect on their own fathers’ deaths and how loss forced new paths to meaning, ambition, and healing.

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4. Learning to Grieve and Move Through Pain (20:12–22:34)

• Rainn admits Western culture ignores grief; after his father’s death, he’d burst into tears unexpectedly.
• He compares grieving to good tennis coaching—if you miss, grieve it, feel it, move through it, then refocus:

  “You grieve so that you can go through, you know, and if you don’t... you get stuck. And that’s a good life lesson.” (Rainn Wilson, 20:53)

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5. Processing Pain: From Addiction to Recovery (26:24–28:28)

• Rainn details past struggles with addictions—drugs, alcohol, pornography—all attempts to numb discomfort and pain.
• Acting, as a career of constant rejection and disappointment, compounded the need to learn true emotional resilience:

  “It took me until… my mid, late 40s to kind of learn how to live with constant disappointment and frustration… You have to go through that feeling before you move on.” (Rainn Wilson, 27:15)

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6. The Paradox of Fame, Money, and Happiness (28:28–34:11)

• Being famous did not erase his unhappiness:

  • “If you are unhappy and you are wired for unhappiness…it doesn’t matter the circumstances—you’re going to be unhappy and discontent and unbalanced.” (Rainn Wilson, 29:18)

  • On happiness scale:
    • Before fame: 3/10;
    • After initial fame: 4-5/10;
    • Now, after years of inner work: 8-9/10 (33:04)
• Fame made paying bills easier (“not gonna lie, that’s an important part of the deal”), but didn’t make him feel ‘enough.’

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7. Self-Worth, Meditation, and Spiritual Practice (33:19–36:38)

• Finds greatest peace in meditation, prayer, mindfulness:

  “My meditation practice allows me that...I combine that with a prayer practice. I believe God is the force of love.” (Rainn Wilson, 33:19)

• References Anne Lamott’s book: “Help, Thanks, Wow”—the three essential prayers.

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8. Fame & the Illusion of Being ‘Enough’ (36:38–43:13)

• Most people in Hollywood, even with millions and accolades, report intense struggles with self-worth.

  “Some of the most unhappy people I’ve met have been multi-millionaires in Hollywood, on both sides of the camera.” (Rainn Wilson, 36:07)

• The Buddhist Four Noble Truths—life is suffering (dukkha: dissatisfaction/discontent) very much apply, even when externally successful.

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9. Struggling With Ego and the “Insistent Self” (43:13–45:23)

• Shares Baha’i parable: “Satan is the insistent self.”
• Ego as the force fueling competition, envy, and inner turmoil—even amidst external wins.

  “That part of yourself that is envious, competitive to a fault... wants to obtain and get... that’s the ego.” (Rainn Wilson, 40:04)

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10. True Change: Inner Work & Adult Healing is Lifelong (45:23–48:15)

• Rainn only started to see progress in his late 40s, after years of spiritual study and therapy.
• Lewis shares his own journey—nine months of intensive inner child work after decades of feeling “not enough.”

  “I wish I could have learned these things a lot sooner as well... but it wasn’t until two years ago when I felt a sense of peace in my heart.” (Lewis Howes, 45:43)

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11. Transformative Healing Practices: Inner Child Work (55:25–58:47)

• Rainn describes a therapy retreat where he built his “inner child” as a Build-A-Bear and carried it, practiced talking to it, and symbolically re-parented himself.

  “It was this training...I get to re-parent myself, I get to hold my own hand… I get to give baby Rainn the love he didn’t get.” (Rainn Wilson, 58:23)

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12. Currency of Peace, Not Just Success (58:47–61:16)

• Lewis: “The highest form of currency right now is peace… when we don’t have that, it just becomes harder.”
• Rainn: Finds daily peace through practices like gratitude chains; real and sustainable happiness is inner, not circumstantial.

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13. The Challenge of Affirmations and the Long Road to ‘Enough’ (61:16–66:14)

• Rainn’s resistance to the affirmation “I am enough:”

  “I picked it up and was like, ‘I am enough.’ Nope. Not doing that. It was so hard for me. My therapist said: That’s the one you have to say.”

• Took nearly a decade of daily work before he truly believed it:

  “It was a good, you know, 10 years... until it started, through the work, to kind of believe it.” (Rainn Wilson, 63:20)

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14. Would Healing Sooner Have Diminished Drive? (67:08–68:54)

• Rainn and Lewis speculate: Did feeling ‘not enough’ fuel their ambition?

  “If I had felt blissed out, peaceful and just content at 24, would I have striven the way I did?... So I don’t know what the answer is.” (Rainn Wilson, 67:53)

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15. Marriage, Support, and Spiritual Partnership (69:03–76:34)

• On his wife:

  “She has the most beautiful heart and the most beautiful sense of wonder of anyone that I’ve ever known.” (Rainn Wilson, 69:14)

• Advice for couples in the face of one partner’s growing success:

  “We are there in a coupleship to support each other’s spiritual journey… There’s a yin and yang kind of back and forth.” (Rainn Wilson, 75:21)

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16. Colleagues He Respects Most (76:34–79:37)

• Rainn points to The Office cast—citing Steve Carell, Jenna Fischer, Angela Kinsey, John Krasinski, BJ Novak—for living with humility, prioritizing family, and spreading joy.

  “I really admire and respect how they live their lives in Hollywood and the choices they make.” (Rainn Wilson, 77:23)

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17. Soul Boom and Collective Spiritual Evolution (79:37–86:46)

• On his book Soul Boom and the need for a “spiritual revolution,” both individual (as modeled in Kung Fu) and collective (as in Star Trek).
• Advocates the transformative power of compassion (imagining a “compassion machine” bringing people together beyond superficial differences).

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18. Relationship, Comparison, and the Thief of Joy (87:01–93:41)

• Referencing Harvard’s 75-year Grant Study:

  “The only thing that really matters in life are your relationships to other people.” (Rainn Wilson, 87:01)

• On overcoming comparison:

  “‘Comparison is the thief of joy.’ … Stop comparing yourself to others because you just don’t know their circumstances.” (Rainn Wilson, 89:20)

• Candid about the pain of comparing himself to peers, including audition rivals like Nick Offerman; advocates for abundance mindset and staying in one's own lane.

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19. Three Truths and The Definition of Greatness (96:12–98:33)

• Three Truths:
  1. “I know for sure that I’m a spiritual being having a human experience.”
  2. “Storytelling is one of the most powerful forces on planet Earth.”
  3. “We need more joy and hope in the world. One of the greatest services is to bring them to people.”
• Definition of Greatness:

  “Greatness is me maximizing my God-given talents and faculties… Find what that skill set is that gives you the most, deepest, richest satisfaction, and play it.” (Rainn Wilson, 97:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Fame is a very weird thing. That’ll fuck you up.” (Rainn Wilson, 05:19)
• “Grieve the miss, really. Feel it and then you’re through it… if you skip the grief, you get stuck.” (Rainn Wilson, 21:49)
• “If you are unhappy… it doesn’t matter what the circumstances are, you’re going to be unhappy and discontent and imbalanced.” (Rainn Wilson, 29:18)
• “Satan is the insistent self.” (Baha’i saying, quoted by Rainn Wilson, 40:04)
• “The highest form of currency is peace.” (Lewis Howes, 58:47)
• “I picked up [the affirmation] and was like, I am enough. Nope, not doing that.” (Rainn Wilson, 61:59)
• “If you want to stay miserable, compare yourself to everyone.” (Lewis Howes, 91:52)

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Important Timestamps

• Authenticity and Struggle: 02:01–05:10
• The Office & Fame’s Downside: 05:10–08:43
• Father’s Death & Grief: 08:43–20:52
• Inner Child, Healing, Therapy: 55:25–58:47
• Peace as the Greatest Currency: 58:47–61:16
• Affirmations & ‘Enoughness’: 61:16–66:14
• Marriage and Partnership: 69:03–76:34
• Comparison & Joy: 89:20–93:41
• Three Truths & Greatness: 96:12–98:33

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Tone & Style

Candid, vulnerable, reflective, occasionally humorous. Both host and guest balance deep introspection with pragmatic advice and a spirit of compassion.

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Takeaways for Listeners (Whether You’ve Listened or Not)

• True greatness and peace are found in self-acceptance, not in external success.
• Grieving loss is essential to growth; ignoring it leads to getting stuck.
• Addictions, people-pleasing, and comparison are never solved by fame or money.
• Ongoing therapy, spiritual practice, mindfulness, and authentic relationships—especially self-relationship—are the real work of life.
• The journey to “enough” is long and often requires daily, repeated inner work.
• Compassion and community on both the personal and societal level are the next evolution of greatness.

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For more:

• Soul Boom: Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution by Rainn Wilson
• Rainn Wilson on social media (@RainnWilson) and SoulBoom.com

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Summary prepared in the spirit and tone of Lewis Howes’ “School of Greatness”—inspiring, real, and actionable for your journey of growth.

Transcript

[Lewis Howes]

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Before we got on here, we talked about what would make this powerful and you said, you know, diving into personal authenticity, really diving into more personal matters. I'm curious, when was the most pain that you faced emotionally and internally in the last decade? Was it during the pandemic? Was it when you were on, you know, the office? Was it after the office was before then? When was the time where you felt like maybe I should be really happy, but actually I'm going through some challenge, some suffering, some identity crisis?

[Rainn Wilson]

I love that question. I love that question. I really, really love that.

[Lewis Howes]

Let's go baby.

Let's go baby.

[Rainn Wilson]

I will say that so many lights went off in my brain when you asked me that. And because I think it's really important, you know, if you're seeking greatness, it's super important to say like, like you said to try and Be authentic. I was not always authentic. I was a bull artist, really, for most of my life. I was an addict. I was a people pleaser. I just wanted to entertain. I was like the class clown. I just wanted people to like me. And I was in constant comparison with other people. So that's something that I've struggled with. Really, really is trying to bring as much authenticity and integrity to my interactions as possible and to be vulnerable. Because if you want greatness, and I've just been reading and listening to your book and really enjoying it, and I'm going to switch the complimentary tables on you and just say, what I love about your book is there's no bull. And here are like, takeaways like, you, you, you want to do this? Here's what to do. Nothing vague in the book at all. Like, here's hooks you can hang your hat on. And I just picture like some young dude trying to make a difference. And your book is like a bible, you know, And I, and I really, I really mean that. I've read a lot of, like, books that are, I won't say it's not self help, but like, motivational. Like motivational kind of leadership, entrepreneurship or whatever. Yours is bigger than that and I really appreciate that. But I do think that when we talked right before the interview, I was saying, like, sometimes messages don't get through unless you're really vulnerable and unless you're just as real as possible. Because there's a lot of those folks out there aspiring to some kind of greatness and some kind of motivation and leadership that are struggling and they have character defects and they get sad some days. And some days they wake up and they don't want to do a cold plunge at 6am and they don't want to do a Tony Robbins three hour workout and a, you know, like a Mark Wahlberg 4:00am 4:00am yeah. Like protein all day. Like, it's hard, you know? So I think it's important to talk about, like, the struggle. So you, you're leading off with the struggle.

[Lewis Howes]

So when was the time that was the hardest for you? Well, in the last decade.

[Rainn Wilson]

I'm, But I'm gonna, I'm getting there. I'm getting there. You let me.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm gonna get simmer on it. I got you.

[Rainn Wilson]

No, I'm, I'm. But I will say that two things before the last decade. So my wife and I have had a lot of struggles and a lot of up and down, ups and downs over the years. That was some hard stuff, but that was Thankfully, a while back. But also like, and I've been thinking about this too. Like, when I was on the Office and I had the first. I had been acting for 15 years professionally, and then all of a sudden I was on the Office. We almost got canceled like a dozen different times. And then all of a sudden we take off, we win the Emmy, we're a top 10 show. It becomes, you know, everyone is getting movie deals out of it. And, And I. And I remember back to that time and how kind of sick I was that I didn't have the spiritual tools that I needed and the psychological tools and resilience that I needed to go through that fame is. Is a very weird thing. That'll you up number one. Number two, I wasn't happy with what I had. I mean, like, to go from total obscurity to be kind of a weird looking, goofy character actor and all of a sudden get the role of a lifetime and be allotted and loved and winning awards and whatnot, like, that's enough Rain. If I could go back in time to those early years of the office, you know, 2006, 7, 8. And I was always. And I was like, but I want more. I want, I want a movie career like Jack Black has or Will Ferrell, or I want, you know, this. Or I want my own media company or I want my own success here. I want my own development deal here. I want to be the spokesperson for this. Like, I want more money here. Like, like what? When is it enough? Like, when is it ever just enough? And I wish I could have just taken a deep breath and be like, this is enough. This is great. I get to do 22 episodes a year. This amazing character. I'm making a really nice living. I won't say, like, I've made it. I want to do more creatively from a business standpoint. But I wish. So when you, when you asked me that, I think about those really troubled times that I should have been enjoying, and I wasn't able to go to gratitude. Yeah, I mean, I enjoyed my time on the set and with the cast. They were amazing. And we all got along great. And I love each and every one of them. We were like this wonderful family. We weren't even a dysfunctional family. We were a pretty functional family. Right, Right. Like, we'd come in every day and we would make comedy and get along and high five each other and. And eat too much from craft services. But, yeah, so I was thinking about that. But then I'm gonna, I'm gonna go there and There's a chapter in the book, and it's called Death and How to Live It. And my dad dying two and a half years ago, right after Covid started, was really devastating for me. My mom left me and my dad when I was about a year and a half. So I. I stayed with him my whole life. So my primary bond, I didn't get to know my mom until I was like 15. So my primary bond was with my dad was always there for me. We had our ups and downs, we had our struggles, and we bumped heads a lot, and we didn't see eye to eye a lot, but it was. It was really devastating at a core level to lose him. And it kind of shifted a lot of things about my perspective about life.

[Lewis Howes]

What was the biggest lesson he taught you while he was here and the biggest lesson he's taught you since? Transitioning into a different way?

[Rainn Wilson]

You're gonna make me cry, Louis. I will say that. Two lessons. One is my dad, when he came into a room, always made it a better place. Wonderful. He would always have a positive thing to say. He would always uplift someone. He would tell a joke, he would inspire, he would compliment, like, that's a great jacket. And oh, I love your office. And oh, the light bulbs are great. And so nice to meet you guys behind the camera. Where are you from? Like, he always had some way to uplift every room he came in. And. And you know what? And again, I didn't really appreciate that until he was gone. And when I was thinking about eulogizing him, I was like, what is the single thing that if I could point to one thing that my dad did consistently that made the world a better place? It was, it was. He uplifted every room he went into. And that was. That was really special. Sometimes I'm able to do that, but sometimes I'm. And the other thing. And I put the inscription of my book and I said, dedicated to my. To my father. And I said, thanks for teaching me about the soul. And I feel like my dad had a deep understanding from his faith that we are spiritual beings having a human experience, that our reality is spiritual. We are heart based beings and we are in this physical world, we get 80 or 90 years, he got 79 years to go around the sun and to do the best with what we got and to try and leave the world a little bit better than when we came into it. And that perspective has stayed with me my whole life. And I went through a time when I was an atheist and I had rejected faith and all of that nonsense and religious BS and whatnot. I didn't want anything to do with that for a good decade and a half. But I did always kind of keep with me that idea that we are essentially are spiritual beings.

[Lewis Howes]

That's beautiful. What would you say that's the biggest lesson he's taught you since transitioning? Well,

[Rainn Wilson]

that lesson was driven home when I saw him on the table of a hospital bed. And it was just like one of those medical shows where they were doing open heart surgery and he had had to do quadruple bypass and they have to take a vein to put it in, and they couldn't find a vein that wasn't affected by his arterial sclerosis. So he was 12 hours and they couldn't save him. Oh, man.

[Lewis Howes]

And you were there for it?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Like in parts of it or a couple.

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, it was. It was the weirdest thing because it was during COVID you could only have one guest, one visitor. So I went in in the morning before the surgery, and we hung out for like an hour. I was sure he was gonna. If this. This operation has a 90%, 95% success rate.

[Lewis Howes]

So you're like, he's. I'll see him soon.

[Rainn Wilson]

I'll see you soon. Wow. And I literally was like. I literally hugged him. We were visiting. I was like, you're going to be great, dad. Love you. I went and played pickleball.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Rainn Wilson]

I went to hobby lobby and got some supplies and, like. And then all of a sudden we're like, wonder how that's going. And then we got a very concerned call at like 12 or 1 o', clock, and. And we're like, oh. And then we had to wait another six hours before we kind of found out the situation. And. But he was still barely alive, but losing his blood pressure, and he had some kind of blood sepsis. And. And it was a kind of thing of like deciding to.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh, man.

[Rainn Wilson]

Unplug him. But the doctor was like, listen, he's going to be dead within the hour. And it was like one of those hospital shows where it's like squeaky doctor shoes on the linoleum floor. White coats, white coats, beeping machines and beep, beep. And that ventilator is going, no way. And it was incredibly sad. It was weeping and. But what is the. What is the kind of bounty that comes out of it? What's the takeaway? His body is lying there on the table. And I see little things about him. The way his hair sticks up here and there and the way his Ears are. And his kind of ruddy cheeks and his kind of old man hands. And it hit me like, oh, that's not my father. That's not my father. That is the vessel that carried my father for 79 years. I'm looking at this vessel once the heart had stopped, but that's not the reality of who he is. And that goes hand in hand with that lesson. So that's what he's kind of taught me upon his passing. Again, just really solidified that the light that we all have, the. The emotion, the love that we bring, the. You know, that the spirit that we bring to interacting with one another, that's our reality. You know, this body houses us and we should take care of it and maximize it and love it. And it's part of who we are, but it's not all of who we are.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. Yeah. It's interesting. I lost my dad last year and it was. It's been an interesting year of knowing that he's no longer physically in this world. I don't know if that's something that you've been experiencing. It's like, okay, do you get a thing?

[Rainn Wilson]

Sometimes you're like, I'm gonna text my dad or I gotta call him. And you. And you think about it and then

[Lewis Howes]

you're like, I wanna. Well, here's the thing. I had a. You know, it was kind of a tragic experience because he had a. A car accident, I guess, 18 years ago. Now that he had a severe brain trauma. So he was in a coma for a few months after that. He eventually woke up. He shouldn't have made it, but he survived. And he kind of lived 17 years, you know, in his home watching TV. And that was it. Because he didn't have the ability to work anymore. He lost his memory. He wasn't. He could walk and talk some, but it wasn't. Wasn't the same.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

So it was like he always had to ask me, didn't you go, didn't you play football? Even though he was at every football game, you know, he'd forgive me my name sometimes. And he's just kind of. To like, remind him every time you saw him. That's telling him the same story where he'd be like, oh, yeah, that's right. He just didn't have the spirit that he once had. And so it's. It was. It was kind of a. 17 years of a loss. He was physically here, but. But emotionally not here. And then when he passed, it was almost like I finally could grieve for the first time because I wasn't able to really grieve him not being around, but physically being here because I didn't have those conversations with him. So that was, that was challenging. I almost have more peace now that he has passed. But I still look back at my 21 year old self in sadness for him that he didn't get to have really the father and that was their fault.

[Rainn Wilson]

And how much did that motivate you that he was in this kind of half life? In a way it.

[Lewis Howes]

When it happened, I was, I was. I had just gotten through an injury playing college football. The day, the, the night he got in the accident, the next day I had a football game and we didn't know if he was alive or dead. And so my siblings were like, I was like, what do I, what do we do? He was in New Zealand, I was in Ohio, he was on vacation. And I was like, do I play? Do I not play? Like, what would he want me to do? I don't know. Ended up playing on the second to last play of the game. I broke three ribs actually in that game. And I thought, okay, my season's over. I don't know if my dad's alive still or if he's dead. What do I do now? When he came back, I got very clear that life is finite. Like it could happen in a moment like this. Like, I got injured, my career could be over in a moment. He got injured, his life could be over in a moment. So I made a decision that day that I'm always going to go after my dreams no matter what. And I'm going to, I'm going to do the best to have joy in my life and fun in my life and play. So I went after everything. And even though I was afraid, I didn't let the fear hold me back because I was like, my dad was large in the life and if this could happen to him in a moment, then if my life is over tomorrow, at least I want to enjoy this day in this moment. And so it gave me a lot of permission to go after what I wanted. Now for a couple years after football was done, I was living on my sister's couch for a year and a half and I had no way to make money. I was struggling in 2008. I was broke, hadn't graduated college yet.

[Rainn Wilson]

You should have called me, man. I was on the office.

[Lewis Howes]

There we go. I wish I'd have known you then.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And I remember, I. Here's the thing about, I guess losing my father early on there was no one to rely on. There was like, I had to step up into becoming a. Somewhat of a man for myself at that point in terms of like, okay, I've got to learn how to make money, I've got to learn how to do my taxes. I got to learn how to do these things. I can't just ask my dad for money as a 22 year old anymore. And so in a way, it gave me courage and permission to kind of do the thing that I'm doing now. I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing. If he didn't get in that accident, then I don't think I would have had the courage. And so in some ways I think it was meant to happen.

[Rainn Wilson]

Wow.

[Lewis Howes]

And before he left, the day before he left, I was sitting with him and there was something off about him. It was really weird. I'd never seen this and it was almost like he knew this was going to happen.

[Rainn Wilson]

Wow.

[Lewis Howes]

And he told me before he left, I'm going to go on a spiritual journey. And it was kind of weird because I was like, huh, okay. Yeah, have fun, dad. Like, you're going to New Zealand. You've wanted to do this for a while. He's like, yeah, but I'm going to take my books, I'm going to practice. And when I go deeper into my books on a spiritual journey, Bible and the science and health, which is what I was practicing Christian Science at the time, I was like, I hope you have a great time. And so when I got the call that he got in his accident, I was like, yeah, I think he predicted this and we all needed to go on this kind of spiritual journey in this material world when this happened. But it's been interesting since his passing because it feels weird not being able to know that my father is here. And it sounds like you had a pretty good relationship with your father, right? For, for many years or.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, we did.

[Lewis Howes]

At least. You were in conversation and.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

And so when you have that and then there's a loss or it's not there anymore.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

How have you been able to spiritually and emotionally cope with that loss? Physically?

[Rainn Wilson]

You know, it, it really has to do with grief and, and the grieving process, which is not something we talk a lot about in Western culture. But it's just, it's. I had to learn how to grieve. So, you know, this good year and a half after he died, I would just sometimes burst into tears. I'll never forget, my assistant just came by my office Once. And I. I just had. I've seen some picture of him or something like that, and I was just sobbing, and my sister walked in, and he was like, hey, do you want to. Oh. And it's like. It's like. I'm like, it's okay. I'm just crying because my dad died. He's like, okay, I'll come back. I'm like, it's all right.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm like, wow.

[Rainn Wilson]

But you grieve so that you can go through, you know, and if you don't grieve and you don't learn how to grieve, you get stuck. And that's a good life lesson. Put that in your next book and smoke it.

[Lewis Howes]

Exactly.

[Rainn Wilson]

But I think that there's a lot of truth to that. Like, we have to. In fact, I had. I've been playing a lot of tennis, and I'm on this, like, USTA tennis team, and we compete and stuff like that, and I'm not very good, but I'm getting better. But I remember those. Taking lessons with this tennis teacher named Zach Kleiman, and he's here in la, and we actually interview him in the Geography of Bliss show because we do an episode in la, and. And he said, like, every mistake you make, like, you know, you've got a clear ball and boom, you hit it in the net or something like that. Like, grieve it. Like, grieve the loss. Grieve the loss.

[Lewis Howes]

The miss.

[Rainn Wilson]

Grieve the miss, really? And he's like, feel it. And then you're through it, and then you're on. And then you're like, okay, what can I improve next time? And then you're on to the next thing. But if you skip the grief, I. You can get. You can get stuck. You can get blocked in a kind of like a. A muscular self will. But there's something about, like, oh, I got it. I got it. Ah. Okay, what did I do? Oh, I took my eye off the ball. Or, oh, I didn't go low to high, or, I. I got ahead of myself. You know, just keep breathing. Okay, I got this one. And then you're back and you're. And you're ready to go. But his philosophy is that's interesting to grieve the mistakes.

[Lewis Howes]

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[Rainn Wilson]

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[Lewis Howes]

Do you think you understood how to grieve when you were kind of rising into fame with the office and kind of those years with those seasons, did you understand grief?

[Rainn Wilson]

I didn't, I didn't understand that.

[Lewis Howes]

And how did you process frustration, pain, anger?

[Rainn Wilson]

Not very well. Yeah, I didn't process it very well. I had a lot of addiction issues in my 20s and went through drug and alcohol phase, porn phase. Kind of anything that could kind of help me cope and help kind of medicate discomfort and pain I used for a long period of time until I really have been, you know, in active like therapy and recovery and, and all that nonsense for a good while now. And, you know, it's so interesting because when you choose to be an actor, you're signing up for disappointment. So if you're an accountant, not much disappointment. Every, every life comes with disappointments. But you're going to have your, you know, 27 clients or your 12 clients or whatever, and you can have a successful business for 50 years and just be a good accountant and you won't. But actor, you're constantly putting yourself out there like, hey, I'm auditioning for this. Hey, choose me, here's the script. Or, hey, can we get this? Or, and then you do get to make, you know, a movie or something like that, and then it gets canceled or it bombs, or, and I've been involved in plenty of those. So it's, it's been an interesting learning dance. And it took me until, oh, I don't know, my mid, late 40s to kind of learn how to live with kind of constant disappointment and frustration. And so this lesson comes back, which is grieve the disappointment. Feel disappointed, feel frustrated. Be, ugh, like, you know, and then, and then, and then Move on. Like how? And then how do we fix it? But you have to. You have to go through that feeling before, before you move on, I believe.

[Lewis Howes]

What is. I mean, what was it like not being famous and then being famous? And were you happier before or happier after?

[Rainn Wilson]

That's so interesting. It's for someone who has had, you know, addiction issues and alcohol issues and. And then kind of a messed up family situation and essentially spending most of my adult life feeling unwellable. And then you get on a TV show and then the weirdest thing happens. Louis, all of a sudden, I'll never forget it. Like, getting famous from the Office. Like, people coming up and going, I love you.

[Lewis Howes]

You're like so, like they're touching you

[Rainn Wilson]

and they're grabbing, like hugging you. I love you.

[Lewis Howes]

Take photos of you.

[Rainn Wilson]

Oh, I love you. My daughter loves you. My son loves you. We love. Like, there's all this, but it's not really love. They really love getting entertained by the character that I play, which is one small cog in this big machine called the Office. So that is a. That is a mind trip, I would say. If you are unhappy and you are wired for unhappiness and you are making life choices that kind of keep you in an unhappy mode, ungrateful mode, uncontent mode, a discontent mode. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are, you're going to be unhappy and discontent and imbalanced.

[Lewis Howes]

Even if you're famous and have money and people want opportunities with you and you have more followers and all that

[Rainn Wilson]

stuff, we think that that's going to solve our problems. And guess what? That kind of contentment, that kind of like, true, that solidity of well being, it can't be fixed from anything outside of yourself. So I was discontent and unhappy and a scrappy, unemployed, broke actor, you know.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

And trying to make my next rent. In fact, I would say about, I don't know, nine months before I got cast on the Office. Like, we were so broke that I had to pay rent by putting it on my credit card. And was this 2005, six for four. That was like late 2003, early 2004. And. And so if you're discontent, you'll be happy no matter what the circumstances. So then I become famous and then I have all this money and, and movie opportunities and lots of doors opening for me all of a sudden, for the first time in my life, you know, heads of movie studios are like, we want to really meet with Rainn Wilson. We love his stuff. And maybe there's A movie he can do like. So those doors started open. But if you're in chronic discontent and feeling like, I don't have enough, I am not enough, and I don't have enough, it doesn't matter what comes at you. You can all of a sudden say. Someone can come up and say, by the way, you're the king of Scotland. We just found the paperwork. Here's the key. Here's your own kingdom, and here's a billion dollars. Good luck. Like, you would find a way to be unhappy.

[Lewis Howes]

Right.

[Rainn Wilson]

So.

[Lewis Howes]

So are you more unhappy, happier before when you were. Right. On a credit card, or happier after?

[Rainn Wilson]

I was equally unhappy.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Rainn Wilson]

I was equally unhappy. So I tell you, it was nice to pay off my student loans, nice to have a little money. And I'm not going to lie, that's an important part of the deal, is to. When you don't have to worry about when and how you're going to pay bills. And I know you've been there. That's a big.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, that's nice.

[Rainn Wilson]

That is a big deal. Some happiness experts are kind of like, oh, none of that matters. Like, no, it matters.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, of course.

[Rainn Wilson]

But, yeah, I was. I would say if you looked at me, you know, 2001, 2003, I was pretty unhappy and dissatisfied. And then I got the office and there was a big rush. But if you cut. Cut into me in 2006, seven, eight, right in there. Nine. Those were some pretty unhappy years at the same time. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. So on a scale, let's call it the. The self love, inner peace scale.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

1 to 10. 1 being miserable and 0 happiness and 10 being total peace inside self love. Where were you before and after?

[Rainn Wilson]

I would say I was at a three. And then maybe two or four or five. Once I was well known. And then. And then it's been a long struggle and now I, you know, I'm doing much better. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Where would you say you are now?

[Rainn Wilson]

I would say it's a daily struggle and I have to do daily work, but I'm really at an eight. That's correct. Maybe a nine. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

When do you feel the most loved and the most enough?

[Rainn Wilson]

I think in my contemplation practice, my mindfulness practice, my meditation practice, I. I view meditation as something like when your computer is acting all funky and you have to reboot it and, like, the apps aren't working right and the pages and. And then you reboot it and go. And then all of a sudden, like, it's moving, moving smoothly again. Like, my meditation practice Allows me that. I also combine that with a prayer practice. I do believe in God. I believe that there are. There is an incredible divine force out there for us to tap into that is the source of love itself. I would equate God much more to just the force of love, which is synonymous with the force of gravity, than any kind of like guy or dude or deity or some old man with a beard or someone like a Marvel superhero shooting their.

[Lewis Howes]

Sure.

[Rainn Wilson]

You know, like, I'm gonna give Lewis this thing and I'm gonna give him this parking spot. I'm gonna give her cancer. And like, like. So when I'm able to kind of tap into that force of love, when I'm able to. You know Annie Lamott, great thinker and writer, humorist. She wrote a book called Help, Thanks.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Rainn Wilson]

And those are the three prayers. Help, thanks, thanks, and wow. I think it's so brilliant. I love that book so much. So simple. But when you're connecting with that great spirit, like, Help, like, hey, I could really use help with this. I'm struggling with this perfectly. Okay. And thank you. Thank you for what I have. Thank you for the gratitude. And then just, wow. Like the miracle of being alive. The miracle of everything.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. What do you wish people knew about money, fame and success and also how to create and feel enough and happy with all three of those as well?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, if I knew the answer to that, I would write my own best selling book.

[Lewis Howes]

Louis, do you feel like you. So that's a constant journey for you to figure out how to manage those things and also find that peace and happiness and self acceptance for yourself. And also, I'm curious, do you feel like there are anyone in Hollywood or any celebrities with, you know, fame and money and success who have mastered this and also finding like, true, deep sense of I am enough. I don't need to compare myself to others and one up everyone else in Hollywood or in the success world. I have enough. I am enough. I'm becoming more, but I don't need it to feel more. Enough.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah. Some of the most unhappy people I've met have been multimillionaires in Hollywood and on both sides of the cameras, like directors, writers, actors, star, big stars, agents. A friend of mine told me, like, if you're ever in an airport and you're just looking for the gate of people flying to LA and you didn't look up on the board, just look for the gate with the most beautiful people who also look the most miserable.

[Lewis Howes]

There you go.

[Rainn Wilson]

It's kind of true. Wow. Yeah. There's so much to talk about, to unpack around that. I mean, gosh, I think that, number one, it's really important to understand, for people to understand that there is a lot of struggle going on and people might really present well on social media and in, on talk shows and in, in their books and, and whatnot. But people are struggling and, you know, big. I'm not saying I'm a big star, but like big stars that I know that are, you know, very successful. They really have struggles. They've struggled in interpersonal relationships and, and in doubt and self esteem. And I feel like the, the road to self love is just a road through struggles. You know, this brings me to this Buddhist idea and I talk a lot about this in Soul Boom. I reference Buddhism a lot because I've learned so much from studying it. But the Buddha has, as you know, the Four Noble Truths, which are the kind of the foundation of, of Buddhist thought and the elimination of suffering. So one of the key, not the only thing the Buddha came for, but the Buddha came to help relieve suffering. So life is suffering. That's the number one truth. Life is suffering. It's interesting because in Sanskrit, the word is actually dukkha. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right, but dukkha means dissatisfaction. It means, it means struggle, conflict, overwhelm, light, pain. It's like the, it's just the pain of being alive. So I would interpret it as saying like, life is about the pain of being alive. And when you know that, I find that very helpful to me. When I, when I come back to that, I'm like, I'm struggling. I'm disappointed here. I wish this outcome had been different. Oh, I didn't get that job. And then, but when I can come back to like, oh, but that's what life's all about. So what do I do now? Like, oh, am I clutching? Am I grasping? Am I wanting to control outcomes? And am I wanting people to like me? Am I wanting all this stuff outside of me? And I'm desperately grasping at all that stuff. Oh, that's the source of my suffering. Because when you're in that kind of Zen mode, you can be like, oh, life is suffering. And guess what? All these things didn't happen. And I get to feel disappointment. It's like a breath, you know, it's like in the tennis game, it's like, ah, disappointment, breath. And then a new breath.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, next play and then the next.

[Rainn Wilson]

Exactly. And then you're on, you're on. To the next play. But you don't carry that disappointment with you. But you don't stuff it down somewhere and stick it in a closet.

[Lewis Howes]

You don't not acknowledge it. You acknowledge it and then you move on.

[Rainn Wilson]

Exactly.

[Lewis Howes]

You refocus your attention, you breathe it,

[Rainn Wilson]

you experience it, and then you move on and you heal in the doing.

[Lewis Howes]

What do you think you. If you could have told yourself three things about what you're about to go through with the office and all the things that came with it, all the amazing things, and maybe the more amplified, challenging things that you face as well. What do you wish you could have told yourself the day before, you know, getting that role or the day before the first, you know, time on set to be able to manage it all and love yourself deeper? Or did you just need more time to kind of.

[Rainn Wilson]

So I'm going to get. I'm going to get a little mystical. This might be a little mystical for your audience.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm in.

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay. So I'm a member of the Baha' I faith. So the son of the founder of the Baha' I faith was a man named Abdul Baha. And his name means servant of glory. Anyways, Abdul Baha, about a hundred years ago, came to the United States and a reporter wanted to interview this famous prophet and was like, hey, do Baha' is believe in Satan? And Abdul Baha said, yes, we do. Satan is the insistent self. And I just love that. So, as opposed to like a red guy with a pitchfork who's underneath the ground, under the ground, like whispering in your ears and causing you temptation, and he's like the forces of darkness. He's got his demon army or whatever. Like, it's in here, it's in here. The insistent self. What does that mean? What's the ego? You know, so, and that goes back again to Buddhist thought. It goes back to the most ancient spiritual writings in the world, the Vedas and Upanishads and the Vedantic practice and Tibetan Buddhism, where your struggle is the ego. Right? And in Islam, jihad, the greater jihad is the struggle within yourself. The lesser jihad is like, if there's enemies that are attacking you, you fight those enemies. But the, the jihad that everyone is fighting is that struggle within ourselves against our own ego. So this idea of struggling against. Because the ego, what does the ego get? And again, ego's ego's tough because we want to healthy self esteem. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about that, that part of yourself that is like envious and competitive to a fault and wants to put your to. It's a narcissistic part of yourself wants to put yourself above someone else that compares yourself to others, that wants to, like, obtain and get and try and satisfy itself like a dragon with its horde. And so I would have maybe shown myself some. Some writings about the struggle with the ego. If I'm cutting back to 2005, 2006, and those. Those years, I had a lot of. I had a lot of ego struggles. And even though I had done a lot of thinking and meditating and reading about spiritual practices and. And. And mindfulness and whatnot, I was not able to put that in play. So it just became life after the office became, you know, like a pachink. You know, pachinko machine. You know, the little ball goes, you know, like that. Like my life and my ego became like a pachinko, really, where it's like this success and here's a bunch of money and you get this movie. Oh, the movie bombed, but, oh, you get a different one. And this one, this, and oh, they want to do. And you won this award and, oh, you lost the Emmy to Jeremy Piven. And oh, this is so. It's like. So it's all of this stuff outside of yourself, but where's that garden that we can nurture and grow within ourselves? Because that garden you can take with you anywhere.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. When did you feel like you actually got into that space of practicing it? How many years did it take for you to finally be like, okay, this pinball machine is going everywhere. Ups and downs like success and ego and fame and losses. When did you start to say, oh, this is all happening outside of me, but let me start to nurture and tend to this garden inside of me for more peace and inner prosperity, not outer prosperity.

[Rainn Wilson]

I'm going to be really honest with you. I know I don't look it. I'm 57 years old.

[Lewis Howes]

We great man.

[Rainn Wilson]

48. 49.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay.

[Rainn Wilson]

Is when that started, when I was really able to put into practice some of the spiritual guidance that I had been studying, some of the therapeutic and positive psychology studies that I'd been studying. And for those. And I want to say for those watching at home that might have a problem with spirituality or God or religion and. And first of all, spirituality and religion are totally separate thing. Not totally separate, but they are separate things. Then that's fine. Put that aside. And there's a wonderful reservoir of information that you have drawn on, on all 1400 of your episodes from the positive psychology movement. And so positive psychology always arrives at the same data points that ancient wisdom from faith traditions arrives at goes through a different way, but one you can learn a great deal from. Following what great teachers like Jonathan Haidt has the happiness hypothesis and so many great books on happiness and podcasts on happiness and well being and Arthur Brooks and David Brooks and all the Brooks. There's you those. It's the same wisdom. It's just kind of packaged a little differently.

[Lewis Howes]

Sure. Wow. So about eight, nine years ago is when you kind of started to tend your inner garden.

[Rainn Wilson]

Isn't that pathetic?

[Lewis Howes]

It's not pathetic.

[Rainn Wilson]

I should have had it at 33.

[Lewis Howes]

Okay. Jesus. Yeah, I think, you know, I wish I could have learned these things a lot sooner as well. But it wasn't really until two years ago when I felt a sense of peace in my heart that I haven't never felt.

[Rainn Wilson]

Wow.

[Lewis Howes]

And When I hit 38, I just turned 40.

[Rainn Wilson]

What, what happened there?

[Lewis Howes]

I only felt peace when I was single, but when I was in relationships, I felt trapped and I felt a sense of not enoughness and never gonna be able to.

[Rainn Wilson]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

Live up to someone's standards and people pleasing and all these things that. Yeah, you mentioned as well. Similar things. And I never.

[Rainn Wilson]

Sounds like a little codependence going on there too.

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah. And it was, it was, you know, I was afraid because my parents were trapped. And so I grew up watching a model of them not really accepting or loving one another. And I didn't know which night if it was going to be like peaceful or chaotic, you know, every night you just didn't know how they were going to be screaming or reacting or cold shoulders. So I just didn't have a healthy model. And I don't blame them. It all developed me in a certain way to be a curious learner of this and try to like support others going through the same challenge. That's one of the reasons why I left home at 13, because I was like, get me out of here. It was just very up and down chaotic at home. My brother was also in prison for four and a half years when I was eight till I was 12. So it was just like a lot of sadness, grief, loss, pain within the family dynamic. And I know lots of families go through their own unique family dynamic of dysfunction. So this was just my own perspective. And I just went after a feeling as opposed to being the feeling. I went after wanting something and desiring people and then needing to make sure that it worked out and going all in on it, even when I had to change who I was to try to make them, quote, unquote, happy. The partners I chose were never happy with me. They didn't accept me for who I was. And I don't blame them. I chose them for a reason. I need to learn the lessons. And it wasn't until I became fully peaceful and happy and on a healing journey of who I was and everything about my past really grieving all the different parts of me, that's when I felt peace. It's going back to the first thing you talked about, which was grieving. I did about, I don't know, nine months of inner child healing and therapy. And, you know, I'm sorry to interrupt.

[Rainn Wilson]

I want to. Please, go ahead, pick it up from there. But I just want to say, like, see, I think this is super important that you can share with your audience your struggle. And to say, here I am not really kind of figuring out how to be at peace in a relationship until my late 30s. I don't have it all figured out. I struggle. I think that's so great that you're willing to share that.

[Lewis Howes]

Tax and bonus season is one of those sneaky little moments. You check your account, you see a refund or a bonus, and for about 10 seconds, you feel rich. Like, ooh, maybe I'll go buy some expensive gift for myself. Then reality kicks in. But here is the thing. That moment right there is actually kind of powerful for us. For most of us, extra money hits the account and suddenly it already has plans. Because something needs to be fixed, something needs paid for, or something you've wanted for forever is calling your name. There's no shame in this. Life is full. Things break, plans pop up. But what if just for a minute, you paused? Like, just for a second? Not because you have to, but because you want to ask a better question. Not what can I buy right now? But what would actually feel good about this later? And instead of the moment running you, you make an intentional move. Not a big dramatic one, just a simple decision that leaves you feeling a little more steady and a little more in control, specifically with your money. And if you get a tax refund or a bonus, try asking a different question. Not what can I buy today? But how can I give my bonus a bonus? Or how can I turn my tax refund into more funds? It's a small shift, but it changes the energy. And suddenly, it isn't just extra cash. It's an opportunity. One simple, intentional decision can help you feel a little bit more in control, a little more steady. Honestly, that feels better than an impulse purchase. You forget about in two weeks. And that's why I like how U.S. bank approaches tax and bonus season. They know these moments matter. US Bank Smart Lease Savings is designed for people who want flexibility while earning competitive promotional rates. And if you are in a place where you do not need immediate access to that money, US Bank CD specials are let you lock in a guaranteed rate for a set period of time. It's so simple, it's straightforward and it's about saving your way, growing your money without overcomplicating it. U.S. bank can be a trusted partner when you decide to be a little more intentional with a financial boost. Visit usbank.comsavings to get started. Savings rates vary based on the presence of an additional eligible product and combined qualifying balances. CD rates vary by term and location. Member FDIC this show is sponsored by Better Help. Watching Martha step into motherhood inspires me

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I share. I share it on here all the time about all my struggles. I kind of am like the guinea pig of breakdowns. You know, here's how I'm suffering and struggling and what I'm you know, working out with my health, relationships, money, spirituality. So.

[Rainn Wilson]

So you talk about the inner child work. Did you do some therapy?

[Lewis Howes]

Yeah, nine years, nine months. I was like at a screenshot screensaver on my phone of my five year old self. You know, not from a narcissistic point of view of like oh look at me as a kid but more of like oh look how sad I was and look how much I was suffering and unsure of myself I was. And always asking why am I even here what's the point of this? And, and just getting into trouble a lot. And so having compassion for my five, six, you know, seven, eight year old self and putting myself in the mystical situations spiritually where I'm there having a conversation and comforting my 5 year old self as a 38 year old adult with the wisdom and experience that I have now. Yeah, Those experiences reunited me with a broken memory. A memory of mine that was broken, bruised and hurt psychologically, emotionally, spiritually. And this allowed me to create harmony and congruency with the parts of myself that I was most ashamed of. This was also the time when I was sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. 5 years old. My second memory is of being sexually abused in a bathroom by a man that I didn't know. And I never grieved that. Like you said, going back to grieving, I never even acknowledged it for 25 years. It wasn't until 10 years ago when I started to open up and talk about that and process it with support, that released a pressure valve within me that had been building up for 25 years, which drove me to be to excel in athletics and business and getting results. I was like, I'm going to prove them wrong. No one's going to hurt me ever again. But by not acknowledging or grieving the pain and the Sadness of the 5 year old, the 9 year old, the 3, 13 year old, the 27 year old, you know, and all these different breakdowns I had and always going to the next point without grieving the loss, it caused many breakdowns in my life, physically, relationally, financially. When on the outside things look good, but on the inside it was a one, two or three.

[Rainn Wilson]

Wow, that's powerful.

[Lewis Howes]

And so 10 years ago, right when I started this show, was a part of that journey of healing and finding people that could share their stories so I could try to learn from them and apply some of these lessons. But two years ago specifically is when I went even deeper because I was just, I was really struggling in a previous relationship. And so I did about six months of intensive weekly therapy of healing the inner child within myself. That's great. And then doing it from the different parts of my childhood from 12 to 18 and 27, kind of marrying all those memories, creating new meaning from them into where I'm at now. That's what allowed me. There was a moment after about, I don't know, six or seven months of this therapy practice I was doing.

[Rainn Wilson]

What was it called?

[Lewis Howes]

It's just working with a coach. Okay, yeah. Therapist, yeah. And, but it was just very intense. I was doing like seven eight hour sessions, you know, on Saturdays I was just like, I need to figure this out. I'll do whatever it takes. I'm sick of pain, I'm sick of the suffering. Tell me what to practice, try. Do all of whatever you want to do. I'll do it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay, let me, let me, let me

[Lewis Howes]

know what I'm saying.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. Can I tell you a story?

[Lewis Howes]

Give it to me.

[Rainn Wilson]

Along those same lines, people are watching are like, when did Lewis turn into Oprah? So when I was struggling a lot, it was a while back, I went to this therapy retreat center called PCs in Scottsdale and I did a couple different weeks there and different kinds of sessions and different kinds of work. One of the things they have you do there, not for everyone, but they do inner child work. It's therapy 12 hours a day. You stay off site, but you're in and it's very intense. Wow. They have you on the first day, go to the mall, to the build a bear workshop and you build your inner child.

[Lewis Howes]

Shut up.

[Rainn Wilson]

So I went and I built my inner child as a bear.

[Lewis Howes]

I love this.

[Rainn Wilson]

And you name it.

[Lewis Howes]

That's beautiful.

[Rainn Wilson]

And you have conversations and you carry it with you the entire week.

[Lewis Howes]

That is a beautiful exercise.

[Rainn Wilson]

The entire week. It's like kind of embarrassing like, because I was like walking around.

[Lewis Howes]

Here's the thing, a lot of people that are watching or listening, they've heard me talk about this stuff for a while. But if there's. I'm always trying to be a Trojan horse. You know, you look at me, I'm this big like, you know, jock looking guy, six, four, you know, former athlete, all these different things. And I try to draw doofus looking,

[Rainn Wilson]

look like an IQ of 13, like

[Lewis Howes]

kind of IQ was pretty low. My EQ is high, but IQ is very low.

[Rainn Wilson]

Kidding. I'm kidding.

[Lewis Howes]

But the goal was to. The goal has always been to draw people in that want success, that want greatness, that want, you know, money, all these different things and talk about these things, but also talk about the healing modalities that allow you to feel peaceful and enough when you have the championship, when you have the money, when you have the role at the office. Because you know, I was great at sports and accomplished a lot, but I'd never felt I loved myself or that I was lovable, kind of like what you talked about. Then I transitioned into making money and building a business and I built a multi million dollar company and all these different things. But I still didn't feel lovable. So I was like, how do I get to this place where I can actually accept and love me? And so this process, which sounds similar, but I love the idea of having a physical representation of your inner child that is a beautiful experience. And. And I'm assuming you had conversations and did exercises and did some weird things that left if people were watching to be like, okay, and if you're crazy, man.

[Rainn Wilson]

And if someone was doing it and left and left their inner child, like,

[Lewis Howes]

oh my gosh, couch.

[Rainn Wilson]

Or even went to like go get a cup of coffee and left it, they would the therapist be like, what the are you doing? You're gonna leave your child there? Like. And it was this training of like, wow, I. And heart. And when I was a child, I was so vulnerable and I suffered so much trauma and pain. But guess what? I get to re parent myself.

[Lewis Howes]

Man, this is beautiful.

[Rainn Wilson]

I get to hold my own hand.

[Lewis Howes]

Oh my God.

[Rainn Wilson]

I get to see baby Rain Baby Lewis and give him the love that he didn't get when his mom took off when he's a year and a half old. And my dysfunctional dad was stuck with this beard, big, weird looking toddler, you know, and I, I get to be part of that process. And it was, it was really powerful. It's a lot of, a lot of really intense stuff.

[Lewis Howes]

Here's the thing. When I was 21, if I would have watched this conversation or heard this, I'd have been like, what a bunch of, you know, a bunch of wusses.

[Rainn Wilson]

Suck it up.

[Lewis Howes]

Don't be such a baby, right? Upset, like, whatever. Because I was just in more of an ego mindset. And I'd have been like, just tell me how to make money. Just tell me to be happy. Just tell me to like, just. I want to be successful. Yeah, just teach me that, like, touch one of those. What are those steps? What are those skills? And I hope people watching or listening, you know, specifically men, if you're watching or listening, that you can just listen and hear this perspective. You don't have to listen to me, listen to you and hear this perspective of. I truly believe that the highest form of currency right now is peace is, you know, because you said you can have lots of money and still be miserable and unhappy. The highest form of currency, I think, is peace. Peace with your relationships, peace with your career choices or the business you have, peace with your health and peace with yourself. And when we don't have that, it just becomes harder. And so for me, it's figuring out how to stay in congruency and alignment with self and be in a peaceful state. It doesn't mean we're not going to experience stress and challenge and overwhelm and let down and all these things. But doing the best to stay in peace will allow us to feel better, make the people around us feel better and make better decisions in our lives. So I hope people are listening. I hope the women listening share this with their, their male friends

and know

it from two different individuals of different backgrounds. You as the career and you know, and acting and all these different things that you've done in media, me from sports and business, that it, it matters to make money. But if you're miserable and you're hurting yourself in that process, then it's just amplifying the pain that you already have. And so this is the work, in my opinion.

[Rainn Wilson]

Amen.

[Lewis Howes]

You don't, you don't have to go to build a bear and make an inner child, you know, physical representation and hold the bear around all day. But I feel like, do something that works for you. Yeah, do something that works for you. And for me, doing intensive therapy weekly for months supported me for you. This experience, this two week experience worked for you. And it's an ongoing journey of healing. From my experience, it doesn't just happen overnight and you're healed. For me, it's an ongoing practice.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's beautifully, beautifully said, really. And so important. And I love that currency of peace. Like if you can gain peace in your inner garden. I like to use that metaphor and well being and feel like I am enough. You know, I've shared this before actually. Our mutual friend Justin Baldoni, I talked to him about this, that when I was first starting the therapy process, my therapist was having me say daily affirmations and gave me a list. Here's a list of like them. And it's just like, oh, give me a break.

[Lewis Howes]

Like, what were the few things?

[Rainn Wilson]

It's like, I'm a good father, I'm worthy of love. The first one on the list is I am enough.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow.

[Rainn Wilson]

And I picked it up and I was like, I am enough. Nope, not doing that. It was so hard for me to look at or think about saying that. And he was like, well, that's the one that you have to say. So I had to hang it on the mirror every morning. I had to get up and brush my teeth and look in the mirror and go, I am enough. And it's, do you remember Stuart Smalley, that Saturday Night Live character? It's like I'm good enough, gosh darn it. And Al Franken played this character. Stuart Smalley, insert clip. But it's corny, it's schmaltzy. But it really helped me. But it also helped me to see, like, wow, I really don't believe that I am enough.

[Lewis Howes]

That's the interesting thing. How do you. Because I think when we say a false affirmation that we haven't actually believed yet.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Sometimes it's like, okay, well, we're lying to ourselves. When, when you don't believe it and yet you're looking at it, you're saying it over and over again. So I love that practice. But it's like we have our. Our emotional state has to catch up to it and actually learn how to process, grieve, heal, and actually believe it. So how did you build yourself in your. In overcoming the insecurities or the self doubt in order to actually believe that you were enough, not just say the affirmation every day?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, that's a really good point, and I hadn't thought about that, but I agree with you. I think it can be dangerous to kind of say a bunch of affirmations that you don't really believe, like you're going to manifest them, but you don't have that organic, authentic kind of kernel of belief inside your. Your gut. But I think that what it did for me is it kind of. It's kind of like in the show Kung Fu, which I reference in the book Soul Boom is one of my favorite television shows of all time. He's like, when you can snatch the pebble from my hand, then you will be ready to go. And that, that's a runner through the show. And finally, Kwai Chang Kane is able to snatch the pebble from the hand and he leaves the Shaolin monastery and goes to the Old west and fights a bunch of racist cowboys. Anyways, another. Another topic. But it's like, when you can snatch the pebble from my hand of really believing I am enough, then you're ready, you know, then you're really ready. So for me was. I would say it and I was not getting the pebble. I. And I recognized, oh, I don't believe that I'm enough. I really don't. And I've got work to do. So it was helpful for me to kind of go like it was. Oh, my God. I mean, it was a good. It was a good, you know, 10 years of me saying I am enough when I didn't believe it until it started through the work that I was doing to kind of believe it. In the last like eight, nine, ten years, I've, I really have come to believe that I am enough.

[Lewis Howes]

Well, I mean, there's, there's, there's some beauty in this for people watching and listening that I think there's a lot of people that don't believe they're enough, which for me, my mission is to give people the, the tools, the inspiration, the expertise, the, the knowledge, the science, the research from others on how they can start to believe in themselves more. I believe self doubt is the killer of dreams. I think it holds us back from going after what we want. You know, when we doubt ourselves, we lack the courage, or even worse, when we accomplish the thing and we don't feel enough. It's like, what will make me feel enough? You know, I was accomplishing in sports, you were accomplishing in acting, and you still weren't feeling enough with like the height of your career with that show. Right? It was like, okay, why do I still not feel enough? And I believe when we can overcome that insecurity and doubt, that's when we can start to really step into a beautiful way of being. And it's been a process and a journey for me. I'm curious, what do you think it was that allowed you to start to believe that you were enough? After all those years of kind of saying it and practicing it and the modalities and the training, was there one thing that were you like, okay, now I'm starting to feel it. Like, what was that letting go or skill that you learned that supported it?

[Rainn Wilson]

That's a great question. And I wish I had kind of like some, some nugget, but it just, it just was, it was a shift, you know, it was a lot of work. It was like, you know, it's like you put in the work. You can, you know, use athletics as, as a metaphor. Like you practice, you know, daily. You just, you practice and you work at it and you fail and you struggle and, you know, there's ups and downs and, you know, it was finding a really good therapist and doing some retreats and doing some reading, working with my wife a lot. I learned a ton from my wife. She's much better at this stuff than I am. And it wasn't kind of like an aha thing. Like over time, I just, when I look back on it now, like, oh, yeah, I'm so much more at peace now than I was and I have been for many years. But when I look back at those

[Lewis Howes]

years, well, some people might say Rainn. Well, I mean, okay, now you can have peace, more peace because you make all this money and you have this success and you've had your career come true. But you know, I'm a struggling actor here in, in LA and I'm, you know, barely scraping by and I get rejected constantly. So do I have to wait that long until I can feel enough?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yes. No, wait, no. Anyone, anyone can do the work. I think that there's, there's a lot to say on that.

[Lewis Howes]

And, and also, sorry to cut you off there. Do you think you would have been able to accomplish what you accomplished with it, with, by feeling you were enough before?

[Rainn Wilson]

So that, that is an interesting conversation because for both of us, we felt like we weren't enough. We worked our tails off to kind of prove to the world that we're enough and we scraped our way up and built careers, right? Me, this weird looking actor guy. And if I had felt blissed out, peaceful and just content with who I was at 24, would I have striven the way I did? Would I have struggled and clawed my way from, you know, unemployed actor in New York City to, you know, Emmy nominated, you know, television show and, and lots of money? Like would I have, you know, sometimes. And you see that with so many people that are really driven, there's something kind of broken inside them that goads them on. So I don't, but I do think that. So I don't, I don't know. I don't, I don't know what the answer is to that. I don't know what the answer is.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting to reflect on though.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting conversation to

[Lewis Howes]

have you mentioned, you mentioned your wife. How long you been married?

[Rainn Wilson]

Oh man.

[Lewis Howes]

Mighty get you in trouble here.

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

28 years. 27 years. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

What is the thing you love the most about your wife?

[Rainn Wilson]

I. I love so much about my wife. I can't even, I can't even begin to describe that. She has the most beautiful heart and the most beautiful sense of wonder of anyone that I've ever known. Like it can be a poem she's reading. It can be a flower that she sees. It can be. We have all these weird pets. Something with our, one of our animals, the way she loves animals. Like there's this. And to watch her kind of like interact with something and it could be a, you know, a video on Instagram of like an otter building castle in the, in a kitchen or something. And, and you know, but her, her that, that heart centered delight and wonder that she has Is really. It's really special. And I get to witness that on a. Multiple times a day. And I'm. And this goes to. And I'm sure you've talked a lot about it on your show. I haven't listened to all 14.

[Lewis Howes]

It's August.

[Rainn Wilson]

And it goes to gratitude, which is one of the most powerful forces in the universe. And I'm on a gratitude text chain. So every morning I get up, my group of guys, really, and. Five things we're grateful for. Wake up. Five things we're grateful for. So it shifts that mindset from that Buddhist idea of dukkha, of dissatisfaction, to what we're grateful for. So I get to say that I am grateful for my wife, and I get to feel that gratitude every day. Now, could I look at all the things that she doesn't do well and that bug me and that annoy me and that we've had a history. Yeah, of course I could. And we all struggle with that in relationships. But, you know, to. To lead with gratitude, Doors open.

[Lewis Howes]

What advice would you give to people in relation?

Because you were.

You've been with her for a while before you, you know, were successful. Right. What advice would you give to people in relationships?

[Rainn Wilson]

By the way, she liked being with me back when I was broke a lot better than really successful in the office because I went through a couple years where I was just kind of a rage.

[Lewis Howes]

Shirts. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

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What advice would you give to couples where, you know, maybe one or both of them are starting to, like, get some notoriety or, you know, followers or success or their business or career is taking off and they're getting a little ego and they, you know, having some attention from the outside world. What would you share your wisdom on how to set your relationship up for more harmony?

[Rainn Wilson]

And this is where I think spirituality comes into play. Because if we are spiritual beings having a human experience, then we are there in a coupleship to support each other's spiritual journey?

[Lewis Howes]

Yes.

[Rainn Wilson]

So I get to, I, you know, achieve kind of fame and success from the office and she gets to support me on my spiritual journey of going through that. The good and the Bad.

[Lewis Howes]

Interesting, right?

[Rainn Wilson]

And then, you know, she gets, you know, she. She's an author, she publishes a book. She. She, you know, writes something new. She struggles. I support her on her journey and her successes on her highs and lows. So marriage, all too often, I think, can feel kind of circumstantial. And it needs to feel. And I think there's a reason why the faith traditions. When you get married in front of God and like, till death do us part, but like, your. The idea that your. Your souls are wedded, you know, and beyond this world, like into eternal worlds, you're gonna. There's a companionship there. So it's that spiritual support and that we're each going to have times when we need more support and we're able to give more. And there's a dance, there's a yin and yang kind of back and forth.

[Lewis Howes]

That's beautiful. I don't know why I'm curious about this, but who is the person or persons that you respect the most in this business? The business of Hollywood, the business, show business, which is kind of like a circus, I feel like. Are there a couple people, you know, and you don't have to throw anyone under the bus who, you know, you don't think is doing well or whatever, but is there a couple people that, whether it's from the office or since after them, that you really respect, you think they're living life in a great way as well as having a great career, they've got solid relationships. You feel like they have a strong foundation emotionally. Are there a couple people you really respect or.

[Rainn Wilson]

You know, it's. As you were asking that question, I was like, oh, Steve Carell. And then I was like, well, really? No, it's more Jenna. And then I was like, well, Angela. And I was like, well, you know, John Krasinski does pretty good. I was like, BJ does. And so I. I really have to say shout out to my office cast members, like that entire cast. I really admire and respect how they live their lives in Hollywood and the choices that they make. Steve puts family first, and he's a very kind of shy and reserved guy and really cherishes his privacy, but works hard on his marriage and the life of his family. Jenna and Angela are the same way, but I really admire the way Jenna and Angela just give joy to people they love to just spread joy and positivity in their work. And John, who's really taken off as a director and an actor and all kinds of things. Again, his family first. Absolutely. His wife and Daughters. And the way that he kind of keeps his ego in check and is able to really focus on doing some really great and lasting work. And I admire the whole Office cast. I know I'm not trying to cop out, like, but they all have things that I. That I admire and that I've learned from.

[Lewis Howes]

That's cool. I think when we met, I think it was six years ago, actually, is what they were saying. But I think when you walked in the studio, my other studio, one of the first things you said is you look like John Krasinski. I think you said it to me six years ago. So you still pretty close with a lot of that group? Is that. Is that a family that's still close? Like, everyone's kind of, like, still in contact?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, we text all the time. We have text chains and that's nice.

[Lewis Howes]

Talk. Supporting each other, celebrating each other's wins. That's amazing.

[Rainn Wilson]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

That's great because I'm assuming you could be with. On a show or on a movie set for a few months and, and, and act like you're really bonding, but then everyone goes off to their next project or thing, and then you. You kind of lose touch, right?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

But you guys have. Have stayed together.

[Rainn Wilson]

We have.

[Lewis Howes]

That's amazing. That's amazing.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

I'm really excited about this book, Soul Boom. Why we need a special spiritual revolution. Because I feel like there's a lot of sadness and suffering like we've talked about in the world. And anytime someone wants to open up about spirituality, which I think is really about having a deeper relationship with self acceptance, self love with yourself and with the universe, I think it's exciting. So I'm so glad that you're. You're talking about this and that this book is out. I'm curious, what is the spiritual lesson? Because you mentioned you were atheist for a while and you know, you've gone through your. Your faith journey. What was the spiritual lesson you learned as a kid that maybe you let go of or forgot or rejected, but have now come back to accept?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, it's so funny that you mentioned that because that's how I start. The book is comparing the spiritual journey to two of my favorite television shows from the 1970s, which I experienced as a kid. And I've done a lot of reflecting back on, which is Kung fu, like I talked about, which is Kwai Changan going through the rough and tumble west as a Shaolin monk. He's half Chinese and he's. And he experiences a lot of racism and a lot of violence and aggression. And he takes his Eastern wisdom and teaches people's lessons. And he also kicks ass when he needs to. You know, with kung fu, there's going to be a couple of fights per episode, which everyone waited. We all waited for with bated breath. And that I compare to, like, our personal spiritual journey. So you, Louis, you've talked to 1400 people. You've gained this wisdom, this insight, but then you go out in the world and you have your girlfriend and your family, and you're navigating the world and trying to use your wisdom better yourself, continue. You're doing your therapy work. You're trying to. You're trying to make yourself a better person, increase your positive qualities, your divine qualities, your spiritual qualities. Some could save compassion and kindness and love, right? So that's that path. My other favorite TV show from the 70s was Star Trek. So Star Trek I see as also a spiritual journey, not on an individual level, but on a collective level. Because people forget that in Star Trek, the mythology is there's been a huge World War Three. And out of the ashes of that terrible conflagration, humanity has succeeded and thrived and overcome its past divisions. There is. I don't want to get anyone upset. There is a One World Government. So a lot of people are like, oh, there's One World Government. Like, well, Star Trek, pretty successful Federation One World Government. I'm all for it, but we've overcome racism, we've overcome sexism, there's no more income inequality. Right? Technology has allowed us to have. What do they call it, the little things where you can make a bowl of soup or you can. The Replicator, and you can, like, get anything out of it. So they've. Technology has taken us to a point where then humanity is able to seek out new life and new civilizations and spread technology and peace and connection throughout the universe and be filled with wonder and. And whatnot. And, you know, I don't think Gene Roddenberry intended the show to be spiritual. I think it was, you know, about technology, the wonders of technology from the 60s and 70s. But really, humanity has matured, right? And even when you get to Star Trek the Next Generation, there's no conflict anymore. And then Roddenberry insisted when they were doing Star Trek the Next Generation, like humanity at this point, because that was further than the original series, that they not be in conflict. So you don't see Picard and Number One, like, arguing over, no, we should go over there. No, Picard, you idiot, we're not. Shouldn't land there. We should, like, the humanity has, like, figured out it's matured beyond even conflict. So this is. I get into a lot of stuff in the book. I get into death consciousness, the meaning of life. I have a whole chapter on God called the Notorious God. I talk about sacredness, looking for the holy in our lives. Religion, the purpose of religion, you know, is religion good or bad? Why is there religion? But a lot of it, towards the tail end of the book is really about this Star Trek journey. Because when a lot of people think about spirituality, they think about cultivating serenity and finding and quelling anxiety and finding beauty and some purpose and some connection. But it's here in the heart, and that's very important. And that's where you got to start. And it's really important. But we also have a spiritual journey collectively on planet Earth to try and make the world a better place. And for example, you think about compassion. Like that's something we can get better at is compassion, right? Feeling for other people. You know, whenever I'm at my worst, I'm not in compassion. I'm like, oh, that. Screw him. Oh, that's, that's what, you know, like, can be judgmental and like, like, oh, those idiots. Why didn't they do that? And they should just do, you know, and. But when I'm able to increase my compassion, say, ah, we're all in this human struggle together. Oh, those poor people. Like, like imagine just how much an increase of compassion could help us as a species move forward on the, on the planet to just maximize, like, we're talking like Jesus like compassion or Buddha like compassion. It could be a powerful force. In fact, I have a little scenario in there. I was like, what if humanity could invent a compassion machine? So picture like an MRI machine or something. We put electrodes on your scalp or whatever it is. I don't know what it looks like. But then you're able to connect with someone on the other side of the world. He's a goat herder in Yemen or it's, you know, someone plowing a field in Pakistan or whatever it is someone completely different than you. And in this compassion machine, you're able to see and feel the world through their eyes and through their heart. Like, imagine if we were actively. Every day, everyone spent half an hour in a compassion machine. And we had just a much deeper understanding of the difficulties of what it's like to be a, a goat herder in Yemen or a, or a farmer in Pakistan. But these are some of like the spiritual tools that lie in the world's faith traditions that can be transformative for us as a species on the planet. So my five year old lesson, these two TV shows kind of show us the way forward.

[Lewis Howes]

Wow. Thank you. That's good. That's a good answer. I've got a couple final questions for you, but I want people to get the book soul why we need a Spiritual Revolution. Make sure you guys check it out. Get a couple copies for your friends as well.

[Rainn Wilson]

Do you know about the grant study out of Harvard University?

[Lewis Howes]

75 year study. Yeah. Yes.

[Rainn Wilson]

75 year study, 300 men, Harvard University, searching for what makes a good life. All these data points, thousands of data points over the decades. The, the final doctor overseeing the study, Dr. George Valent. I think there's a new one now, but he was before. He says his final culmination was the only thing that really matters in life are your relationships to other people. So wherever I went in the world and I saw people succeeding at, well, being at, at inspiration and happiness, contentment, they're connected to other people. It's community. It's all about community.

[Lewis Howes]

I think as Governor Mate talks about, I'm going to paraphrase it. I think it's the relationships with others, but also the relationship to ourselves and making sure we have a good relationship with self. It's hard to have great relationships with others if we don't have a beautiful relationship with self, if we don't accept, have compassion for ourselves or the parts of ourselves that we are most ashamed of or guilty or insecure about. And so I think it's a two part thing. It's like having great relationships with others, but also developing a quality relationship with self. And for me, it's inspiring to see you continue to develop a beautiful relationship with yourself so that you can be of service more in these other ways that you're doing with this book and the show that you have going on. So I'm excited about that. Here's a question I wanted to ask you about comparison because you mentioned this earlier in the interview about comparison. And I'm curious, how can someone learn to not compare themselves to others in an industry? You know, whether it's acting or sports or business or podcasting or books, whatever it is, did you compare yourself a lot when you were kind of becoming famous and rising up in this space? Or were you pretty focused on your own race and you weren't thinking about what everyone else was doing? And if so, how did you overcome that comparison mentality?

[Rainn Wilson]

So Theodore Roosevelt said, comparison is the thief of joy. And if. If you are looking for joy, if you're looking for bliss, contentment and self acceptance, that's a good place to start. Stop comparing yourself to others because you just don't know their circumstances. You don't know your circumstances and you don't. There were a lot of people that I was incredibly envious of early on in my career, really doing theater in New York. Oh, it's something I've struggled with my whole life. I mean, I've really let it go now, but. And you know, they had their moment in, let's say, New York theater in

[Lewis Howes]

the 90s, on Broadway or whatever it is.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, exactly. And then. And then I've had my mom. We all have our moments. If you have talent and. But it's. It's a really important one of like, it's. I don't know if there's any kind of miracle to it. It's just. Stop it. Don't do it. Don't compare yourself. It's like, it doesn't work. It doesn't help you. Envy is like, that's in every spiritual tradition, right? The envy and the. What is it? The green. What did Shakespeare call envy? The Green Goblin or something like that? Maybe. So, yeah, that has been a big struggle for me. It's especially a struggle for actors because you're like.

[Lewis Howes]

Because you're going into a role and auditioning and there's 50 other guys or

[Rainn Wilson]

whatever, and you're like, there's 20 guys in a room and one of you gets the part and like, oh, he did it. And then you go in again and the same guy gets the thing and you're like, God, him. You know, and so, you know, like, Nick Offerman is a great example. Like, he. He and I used to audition for all the same roles. And then I got on the Office. I actually got him, introduced him to the producers of the Office, and they had his picture on the wall and they thought of him for Parks and Recreation, which was going to be a comedy spinoff. And I'm not saying I got him the role, but I, you know, opened the door. Then he had that thing. And now he's. He's been doing so much great work on, In. In television and having a career. That was time when. Because we're. We're similar actors in a lot of ways. We're different in a lot of ways as well. But, you know, he's. But I just remember those early years of being in government, being in the audition, like, oh, you again. You know, and we never had that with each other, and we're able to really support each other. And then he's written a bunch of books, I've written a bunch of books. And that's cool. We support each other there as well. But, yeah, it's been a struggle, I guess.

[Lewis Howes]

If you want to stay miserable, compare yourself to everyone. Right. If you want to be miserable, compare yourself to everyone.

[Rainn Wilson]

It's a great place to start, you know, if you want to start, like, I'm going to. You're talking about, like, school of greatness. Right? Like, these action items that you can make your life better. Number one, stop comparing yourself to others.

[Lewis Howes]

I love that.

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay.

[Lewis Howes]

Love it. Rain,

[Rainn Wilson]

you're just as good a podcast host as Rich. Roll. Okay. All right.

[Lewis Howes]

For me, the thing that I've learned that helped me because I used to. I don't know if I used to compare, but I used to compete.

[Rainn Wilson]

Okay.

[Lewis Howes]

Until 10 years ago. And I'm still, like, competitive in certain life, but more like, towards games. It's not about, like, I don't know my business. It's like, okay, I want to be the best I can be, but I'm not trying to necessarily beat others.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Because I feel like that's a scarcity business and a scarcity world where I've really shifted into collaboration as much as possible.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

Like, okay, here's someone. Me and Rich have been friends for, you know, 11 years, and. And so we just support each other. You know, how can I help you in succeeding and you can help me in succeeding. Let's just collaborate more. And there's abundance. There's room for both.

[Rainn Wilson]

I love. I love those words, scarcity and abundance. Because if you've undergone some kind of child trauma and you feel less than you feel scarcity, and you feel like, I'm never gonna get what I need and there's not gonna be enough for me. Right. It's like someone who grows up in an orphanage, even when they're adult and they can have a million dollars in the bank, they'll hide cookies under the mattress, afraid that they're gonna be hungry, you know, and to just know there is enough for everyone, we can all have some success and we can kind of live our lives in. In abundance.

[Lewis Howes]

It probably wasn't until four years ago where I stopped sleeping on people's couches. Like, when I would travel, like, I used to, like, travel and be like, who do I know in this city that I can crash on?

[Rainn Wilson]

Right.

[Lewis Howes]

As opposed to, like, just paying for the hotel room. Because I was like, this is Money I could save and, you know, not be broke again and just make sure I can stack my account or something. Maybe it was like six or seven years ago, but it felt like it was more recent where it was like, okay, I can afford a hotel.

I don't need to crash on someone's couch.

All these different things. I wanted to acknowledge you, Rain, for this beautiful conversation, for being open, vulnerable, real, authentic, just like we talked about before we started. I appreciate your realness and I always, you know, see your content from time to time. And, you know, for me, I appreciate when someone who is extremely successful in their craft can open up about the different challenges and struggles and things that they've had to overcome. So I really appreciate that about you. I want people to get the book Soul Boom. Why we need a spiritual revolution. And also make sure to check out the new show that's coming out, Geography of Bliss. And if they go to your Instagram and your website, they can see more updates about all this stuff and find out where to watch and how to get the book and exactly all these different things.

[Rainn Wilson]

Links, links, handles, everything.

[Lewis Howes]

We'll have it all.

[Rainn Wilson]

Bags, everything.

[Lewis Howes]

SoulBoom.com Rainn Wilson Everywhere as well. We'll have it all linked up for you guys. Is there anything else we should send people to directly for you?

[Rainn Wilson]

And that's. That's all.

[Lewis Howes]

That's all.

[Rainn Wilson]

Good.

[Lewis Howes]

That's it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Lewis Howes]

I asked you these two questions in the previous episode. You probably won't remember your answers. I have them up in front of me, so I'm going to cheat.

[Rainn Wilson]

Oh, my God.

[Lewis Howes]

And see if you match these two responses. It's been six years now, so there might be a different response to these two questions. The first one is called the Three Truths. So imagine hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want, but eventually it's your last day on this earth and you get to create, accomplish, be, do all the things you want to do from this moment until then. But for whatever reason, in this hypothetical scenario, you've got to take all of your work with you. So no one has access to this book or any podcast you've ever done or any interview. It's all goes somewhere else. Hypothetical. But you get to leave behind three truths that you've learned throughout your life, three lessons that you'd share with the world. What would be those three truths for you that you'd share?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, one is the one we started with, which is, you know, what's something that I know for sure? I know for sure that I'm a spiritual being having a human experience. I would say another truth is that storytelling is one of the most powerful forces on planet Earth. Humans need to storytell. We thrive when we tell stories. And by this I mean write poems, make movies, tell our stories, share our personal details, connect with people, talk. You can do it professionally, you can be a professional storyteller in film and television and theater, or in fiction. And you could do it in your daily life. But that is one of the most powerful and important forces. And I would say too, the other thing is we need more joy and hope in the world. And one of the greatest services that we can ever give to people is to bring them joy and bring them hope. And that's where the work lies.

[Lewis Howes]

Beautiful. Well, if people want to know what the previous three truths are, make sure you check out the other episode. We'll link it up so you can see.

[Rainn Wilson]

You're not going to tell them.

[Lewis Howes]

We can see where they, where they differ or where they're the same. This is the final question for you. What is your definition of greatness?

[Rainn Wilson]

I believe in God. So I believe that God has given me talents, certain talents and faculties and greatness is me maximizing my God given talents and faculties. So I learned a lot about this when I realized like, oh, I have the ability to make people laugh. I'm kind of goofy, I'm kind of weird looking, a good sense of humor, good timing, I can use language. Let me use all of those skills to try and make people laugh. And that worked out pretty well. It worked out pretty well for me. But we all have to find what that skill set is that gives us the most deepest, richest satisfaction and and play it.

[Lewis Howes]

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about

this episode in that review.

I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how

we can support and serve you moving forward.

And I want to remind you if

no one has told you lately that

you are loved, you are, are worthy and you matter and now it's time

to go out there and do something great.

Hey everybody Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host Woody Harrelson. It's called where everybody knows your name and we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson, and Woody Harrelson sometimes wherever you get your podcasts.

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