The Real Reason You're Broke (It Has Nothing to Do With Lattes) | Mrs. Dow Jones

Summary

The School of Greatness with Lewis Howes

Episode: "The Real Reason You're Broke (It Has Nothing to Do With Lattes)"

Guest: Haley Stacks (aka Mrs. Dow Jones)
Date: May 13, 2026

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode tackles the true causes of financial hardship and debunks widespread myths about wealth-building. Financial educator Haley Stacks (Mrs. Dow Jones), author of Future Rich Person: The New Rules for Building Wealth, joins Lewis to discuss why being broke isn’t about skipping small luxuries, but about deep-seated mindsets, societal forces, and core habits. The conversation is lively, vulnerable, and packed with actionable steps to transform your money life—plus candid stories about “the bag,” financial shame, the dangers of “looking rich,” and the new era of wealth wisdom for today’s generations.

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MAIN THEMES & PURPOSE

• Debunking Money Myths: Why small spending cuts (like lattes or avocado toast) are not what's keeping you broke.
• Money Mindset: How your childhood and early beliefs shape financial habits for life.
• Financial Empowerment: Creating systems and beliefs that actually move the needle financially.
• The Trap of “Looking Rich”: Why signaling wealth is self-defeating—and what truly wealthy people value.
• Actionable Steps for Building Wealth: The new rules, priorities, and mindset shifts for real financial independence.
• Generational Challenges: How social media, advertising, and family shape money decisions, especially for millennials and Gen Z.
• Real Examples: Honest stories of mistakes, family dynamics, and practical advice for parents and young adults.
• Old vs. New Wealth: What the truly rich know (and do) that most people get wrong.

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DETAILED HIGHLIGHTS & INSIGHTS

1. The Psychology of Money (01:50–06:23)

• Early Money Programming:
  • “Money relationships are basically set by the time you're seven years old.” (Haley, 01:50)
• Frictionless Finance & Emotional Spending:
  • "People use spending as a form of emotional regulation right now on our phones. It's never been easier... we see 5,000 ads a day." (Haley, 02:27 & 02:44)
• The Real Flex:
  • “What about aspiring towards maxing out your Roth IRA, towards negotiating your salary?” (Haley, 02:49)

2. The Three ‘Future Rich’ Rules (03:14–06:23)

• Rule 1: Face Your Money Mindset
  • “The first chapter of the book is simply called Face It. I can give you all of the financial advice in the world, but none of it is going to stick... if you do not figure out the root of your relationship with money.” (Haley, 03:20)
• Rule 2: Know Your ‘Action Money’
  • “'Action money’ is the money you have left over after your expenses. If you don’t have action money... you’re never going to make progress financially.” (Haley, 04:19)
• Rule 3: Direct Your Financial Energy Wisely
  • “We all have a finite amount of energy each day... A trap that people fall into is having a burst of energy to change but not knowing how to put it to work.” (Haley, 05:14)

3. Why ‘Latte Shaming’ Misses the Point (06:24–07:37)

• “So much of the financial information, especially fed to women, is about using energy towards things that don’t matter, like the avocado toast or the latte... What about learning to negotiate? What about understanding compound interest?” (Haley, 06:24)
• Key Insight: Focus less on penny-pinching and more on income, negotiation, and investing.

4. The Danger of ‘Looking Rich’ (07:57–11:39)

• Confessing to the "Bag":
  • “I still was struggling a lot with wanting to look rich instead of being rich, really... I bought a Louis Vuitton bag with a giant LV... and then of course rent came and it was like, okay, I'm in a bit of a pickle.“ (Haley, 10:11)
• Old Money vs. New Money:
  • “When you actually see really rich people, they don’t care about that stuff... They're buying back their time and health.” (Haley, 09:31)
• Learned Financial Helplessness:
  • “If you feel like the system is out to get you and there's no chance to win, you start looking for cheat codes.” (Haley, 08:49 & 12:59)

5. Money Shame, Blame, and the Power of Values (25:31–29:09)

• “Shame really comes from when we are trying to hide something... Money is so tied to value and a lot of us think however much money we have is how valuable we are.” (Haley, 25:53)
• “Money relationships are basically set by the time you're seven years old. Depending on how you grew up... You're responsible, but there are also forces outside you.” (Haley, 27:01)

6. Value-Based Spending & True Wealth Building (18:52–21:19)

• “You could have anything, but you can't have everything... You can implement your dollars towards what you value to live a fuller life.” (Haley, 18:52)
• “People think in order to be rich, you have to have this high salary. That’s not true. You just have to spend less than you make and be putting the difference to work.” (Haley, 20:29)

7. Key Skills for Financial Freedom (47:27–48:19, 60:34–61:36)

• “The greatest skill you can learn: self-belief—switching your mindset to, ‘I am a future rich person’... Then you need tactical tools: understand the stock market, negotiation, setting up businesses.” (Haley, 47:33)
• “Invest in your skills... especially now in the age of AI... It’s people who know how to use AI who will take jobs, not AI itself.” (Haley, 60:31)

8. Breaking the Chains: Reliance vs. Financial Independence (44:09–46:34)

• “Being in ‘family debt’ means there are always strings attached—even as an adult. Financial independence and freedom gives you the paintbrush to build your own life versus living in someone else's.” (Haley, 44:17 & 46:29)

9. Parenting, Money, and Teaching Financial Literacy (34:10–39:16)

• Top Lessons for Parents:
  1. Talk Through a Lens of Value, Not Scarcity:
  • “Say you’re at the store and your child wants a toy. Say ‘We’re saving towards something else,’ instead of ‘We can’t afford that.’” (Haley, 34:35)
  2. Give Kids Their Own Money to Manage:
  • “Put a dollar amount on chores... So children have their own money to manage.” (Haley, 35:41)
  3. Teach Taxes Early:
  • “Tax that allowance and have a family meeting to decide how to use it for something bigger—start teaching that early on.” (Haley, 37:35)

10. Navigating Investments & Market Volatility (65:22–66:23)

• “First of all, do not sell, because that’s how you lock your losses. Historically, the market has always bounced back. Volatility is the tax you pay for growing wealth.” (Haley, 65:29)

11. AI and Money: Opportunity or Threat? (66:53–71:00)

• “AI is here. The people who are going to win are the ones who know how to use it. You can never fully give up your financial responsibility. Have an eye on your bottom line, or someone else will.” (Haley, 67:16 & 70:59)
• Rihanna Story:
  • “Rihanna... comes home to buy a house. There’s not enough money... because she did not have an eye on her bottom line. Fired her accountants, wrote ‘B*tch Better Have My Money,’ and now she’s a billionaire.” (70:46)

12. Old Wealth vs. New Wealth (71:06–73:48)

• Old Money:
  • “They leverage debt—borrow at low interest and invest at a higher return... That’s how they exponentially grow money.” (Haley, 71:39)
• New Rules:
  • “Don’t get caught up needing to buy a home—sometimes renting and investing is smarter. New wealth sees the opportunity without the old judgments.” (Haley, 73:08)

13. Haley’s Biggest Money Wound and Evolution (49:52–51:28)

• “My biggest money wound is wanting more versus having enough...I put financial freedom on a pedestal, but now I’m working on balance: career, health, relationships, spirituality.” (Haley, 49:52)
• “Because of my financial independence, I’ve been able to freeze my eggs...I don’t have to rush.” (Haley, 51:28)

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• "Looking rich is the illusion. Being rich is quiet." (Haley, 10:01)
• "You can have anything, but you can't have everything." (Haley, 18:52)
• "Compound interest is like a snowball running down a hill. It gets bigger and bigger and bigger." (Haley, 20:29)
• "If you are sad about where you're at...the best way to get out of yourself is to give back." (Haley, 76:33)
• "Secure the damn bag means, use your energy to earn more, not just cut back." (Haley, 59:41)
• "AI is just the next elevator—if you learn to use it, you win." (Haley, paraphrased, 67:16)
• "If you don't have an eye on your bottom line, no one else will." (Haley, 70:59)
• "Rest, Service, Experiences over stuff." (Haley’s Three Truths, 76:33–78:01)

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TIMESTAMPS FOR KEY SECTIONS

• Early Programming / Ad Influence: 01:50–02:47
• The Three Rules: 03:14–06:23
• Money Mistakes & ‘The Bag’ Story: 07:57–11:39
• Looking vs. Being Rich: 09:31–11:39
• Value-Based Spending: 18:52–21:19
• Parental Influence & Teaching Kids: 34:10–39:16
• Investing, Volatility: 65:22–66:23
• AI and Money: 66:53–71:00
• Old Wealth vs. New Wealth: 71:06–73:48
• Money Wounds & Life Balance: 49:52–51:28
• Three Truths / Parting Wisdom: 76:33–78:01

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CONCLUSION

Haley Stacks’s message is loud and clear:

• True wealth has less to do with deprivation or projecting affluence, and more to do with deep self-awareness, practical knowledge, and the ongoing choice to put money where your values are.
• Don’t obsess over ‘latte factors’—obsess over growth: personal, financial, and spiritual.
• Whether you’re just starting out or navigating big transitions, simple, consistent investing, learning, and self-empowerment are the real keys to becoming a “future rich person.”

To learn in-depth strategies and stories, check out Haley’s book and her Financial Tea podcast.

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“My definition of greatness is people who are able to see that the system is flawed and things aren’t perfect…but they do it anyways.” — Haley Stacks (79:00)

Transcript

[Louis]

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[Haley Stacks]

Indeed Money relationships are basically set by the time you're seven years old. If you're someone who's living with a lot of money. Shame. Yeah, you're responsible for a lot of this, but there's also a lot of forces outside of you that are causing you to feel like this about your finances. And so the best thing that you can do is empower yourself financially so you can make your own money, because that's going to let you be able to live your own life.

[Interviewer]

The Wall Street Journal calls her the financial guru millennials listen to, and she's a financial educator and author of the new book Future Rich Person the New Rules for Building Wealth. We have the inspiring Haley Stacks in the house.

[Haley Stacks]

We live in an age of frictionless finance, which is very dangerous because people use spending as a form of emotional regulation right now on our phones. It's never been Easier to use Apple pay like Apple be paying. Not only that, we are the most advertised to generation ever.

[Interviewer]

Crazy, right?

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. Our parents saw 500 ads a day, we see 5,000.

[Interviewer]

5,000 a day.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Haley Stacks]

It's so aspirational in our culture to spend money, show off how much money you have. But what about aspiring towards, like, maxing out your Roth IRA towards negotiating your salary? I wanted it to feel fabulous, so I couldn't find that person, so I became her.

[Interviewer]

What is the biggest challenge they'll face and the biggest opportunity that they'll have as well in their favor?

[Haley Stacks]

So I would say.

[Interviewer]

What would you say are the three rules to become a future rich person?

[Haley Stacks]

So I would say the three rules to become a future rich person. Number one, you have to figure out your money mindset. And that is why the first chapter of the book is simply called Face It. Because, you know, I can give you all of the financial advice in the world, but none of it is going to stick. You're never going to make any actual changes if you do not figure out the root of your relationship with money and then set up systems and have awareness towards acting differently. So that's really the first step.

[Interviewer]

And something you say around that, you say when you lean into your biggest wound, that's where the magic happens. And the moment I stopped avoiding my finances and took control, my whole life shifted. Something you said in the book.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So it was really kind of like this aha moment, then realizing I need to create a new mindset around money and take control of my finances. Okay, so money mindset's one. What would be the next rule?

[Haley Stacks]

So then the next rule is really understanding how to utilize your action money. So action money. Yeah, so I coined this term in the book, and that is the money that you have left over after your expenses. And, you know, it doesn't matter who you are. You could be, you know, Warren Buffett, or you could be like, you know, someone not Warren Buffett. Most of us aren't. But if you don't have that action money left over that then you can play with to grow wealth with, you're never going to make progress financially.

[Interviewer]

And so you have all your expenses, you calculate that, and then everything left over. Is this everything left over minus the lattes and going out to dinners, or is this just everything left over?

[Haley Stacks]

Well, you know, I do believe that you need to leave room in your budget for fun.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Haley Stacks]

Or your financial life will never be sustainable. Then you're going to be the person who's rewashing their paper towels. And who's, you know, I coined the term in the book also financial energy, which, you know, we all have a finite amount of energy each day. I mean I feel like I wake up and I think every day that I'm going to like run a marathon and like start a new company and like, you know, like donate to every charity and get my whole to do list done. And then by 4pm I'm like, okay, want to get into bed? Can I have a cookie? Like no one bother me, you know, because you wake up with all the gusto in the world and it goes away. And I think that a lot a trap that people fall into with their finances is that they have that burst of energy towards wanting to change, which is so great. And it's something that you should absolutely hold onto and garner but you have to understand how to put it to work so it will actually move the needle. And so much of the financial information, especially fed to women, is about using that financial energy towards things that don't matter.

[Interviewer]

Like what?

[Haley Stacks]

Like the avocado toast or the latte or you know, I read something about don't buy pre chopped vegetables at the store. You should always chop them yourself. What about learning to negotiate? What about, you know, understanding compound interest? What about spending that energy to improve your skills so that then you can put yourself in the position to be paid more. When you look 10, 20, 30 years down the line, that is what's going to move the needle for you more than that 5, 10, $20 that you saved along the way. That being said, if you are overspending, which many people are, that's something that you have to deal with. We live in an age of frictionless finance, which is very dangerous because people use spending as a form of emotional regulation. And right now on our phones it's never been easier to use Apple pay like Apple be paying. Not only that, we are the most advertised to generation ever.

[Interviewer]

Crazy, right?

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. Our parents saw 500 ads a day, we see 5,000, so more actually.

[Interviewer]

5,000 a day?

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Oh my gosh.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. So there's all these things that we're told that we need to buy and it feels impossible to hold on to your finances, you know?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. What was the, in the first year after you had your financial aha moment, what was the biggest mistake you made even though you knew you shouldn't have done that? Like something you're like okay, I'm gonna do this anyways because I feel like it's an opportunity or it's cool. Or try this out. Even though you knew it went against like the new rules of money, you were learning about.

[Haley Stacks]

Oh my God, I have so many. Because I'm like, that's what I talk about in the book too is like, I've made so many mistakes. I'm not that financial expert who like, you know, I feel like people think that in order to be good with money, you have to have like a certain personality type. And I am clear in the book, like, I'm the girl who probably is bringing her passport to the bar. Cause I for. I don't know where my license is. You know, I was on a date last week, my hair caught on fire. Like, it's like things like this always happen to me. Like, it's like I'm not, I'm not the girl with the hair washing schedule and the perfect handwriting and all these things. And so, you know, in that first year, I still was struggling a lot with wanting to look rich instead of being rich, really. And I still struggle with that. And it's something that I, you know, have learned to devalue in my mind, like designer goods and things like that. But I still get caught in it sometimes.

[Interviewer]

But what's the difference between looking rich and being rich?

[Haley Stacks]

Looking rich is like when you're, you know, just wearing a ton of designer logos and you want to stunt and make people think that you have this illusion of wealth. And there's actually Louis influencers who. The New York Times just did an article on all these influencers who teach you how to look rich. So they like tell you to wear, you know, neutral colors and you know, like to dine a certain way and all these things. But, and to me, that has to do with learned financial helplessness because if you feel like the system is out to get you and there's no chance to win, you start looking for cheat codes to get you there faster. And sort of faking rich is the way to do it.

[Interviewer]

Really.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. But then when you actually see really rich people, they don't care about that stuff. They're so casual. They, you know, they're driving a Jeep. They've like, they've got like a few hobbies that they really enjoy. They love their family. You know, they're like, they're donating. They're, you know, they have time to themselves. They invest in their health, but they don't care about like, oh, this is my Louis Vuitton bag or whatever. It's really about buying back your time and health.

[Interviewer]

Health and time.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, that's those are the two biggest assets.

[Interviewer]

What would be like a few key signs of people who are trying to project. Project that they're rich versus people that are wealthy. The signs that they have.

[Haley Stacks]

Okay, so in that first year, I got a check that I thought was like life changing. That was $3,000. And not only did I buy a Louis Vuitton bag, but I bought one where it has the LV enlarged so super big. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like, let me project.

[Haley Stacks]

Yep. Like, exactly. Like, like, let's not just. Don't just know. Okay. Low key Louis Vuitton bag. Like, let's. No, no, it's loud. Like, you're not going to be able to ignore the fact that like this is a designer bag. And by the way, probably fake, like from ebay, from like a random seller. Like not box fresh. And you know, I could not have given that money over quicker for this item that I thought signaled success and gave me value. And then of course, rent came and it was like, okay, I'm in a bit of a pickle because spend all that money on, you know, the bag. And so that was sort of a tough month. But I keep that bag now as a reminder because I think I still will always have that dog in me. A little bit of like, you know, falling a bit for the allure of like luxury. But I also know that the gratification of it is so fleeting and that I actually get so much more money value for my money when I spend it on experiences or, you know, on creating my future more than.

[Interviewer]

I mean, this is not a right or wrong conversation. I've never been like, I've been more about quality and premium, like buying quality and premium versus which brand is it? Yeah, it's more of like, is the brand premium but not. Is the name known so that I can project? And I'm not saying, listen, I have a Tesla.

[Louis]

They're signaling all that.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I'm wearing a Rolex. Someone gave it to me as a gift, but it was give it to me.

[Haley Stacks]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

But it's part of me feels weird when I buy like brand names to show it off for me. I feel weird about it. Even though I again, I have a nice Tesla. I have a Rolex. It's like, I'm not saying I'm better than or something, but I always look for premium. Like, I want a premium experiences, I want premium food, I want quality time, I want premium like travel.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That's what I'm looking for to create more like comfort, I guess, more like quality, more of that. In my life. And maybe I have a wound against going against brands for some reason. Like, I don't know, maybe it's something different there. But when someone only wants brands and they're like, I cannot wear anything unless it's designer name and it's showing it. Right, and it's signaling it, what are they saying to the world typically, if that's the case?

[Haley Stacks]

Well, to me, this is a form of learned financial helplessness, which is when you feel like the system is so out to get you and there's no real opportunity to win. And so you start to prioritize things that don't really matter because you're sort of looking for shortcuts and ways out versus actually understanding that there's always still ways to win. You just need to find them. And so this could come as, you know, ignoring your bank statements, quiet quitting, I think is a really good example of learned financial helplessness.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Haley Stacks]

But yeah, but, you know, where you sort of just give up, you're like, well, you know, I shouldn't have to count on myself. Like, it's, it's, you know, the people who are sort of like, we're on a spinning rock, the world is burning. Or, you know, I see this a lot when I give projections for investments. So I'll talk a lot about how important it is to start investing early. And if you invest at 25, $200 a month, 8 to 10% return, by the time that you are in your 60s, you will have over $700,000.

[Interviewer]

Crazy, right?

[Haley Stacks]

Which is so cool.

[Louis]

200 bucks a month.

[Haley Stacks]

200 bucks a month at 25. Yep. And if you start at 35, that goes down 200 at least. Yeah, exactly. But when I say that, there's always people in the comments who are going to say, well, $700,000 by the time that I'm in my 60s isn't even going to matter. Like, you know, inflation is so crazy. And they're not wrong. Since 2000, you know, price of living has gone up 67%, wages have increased 7%.

[Interviewer]

But if you don't invest anything and you have 0,65, you're screwed.

[Haley Stacks]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

Then what do you do?

[Haley Stacks]

Exactly. But that's learned. It's like this financial nihilism where you just count yourself out. And that is something that I really talk about a lot in the book, because I think that we see it a lot in young people who then prioritize, like flexing or, you know, you see it even like people going to Coachella on Buy now pay later, where they're living so much more for the now versus prioritizing their future rich person because they feel like there's no point.

[Interviewer]

So let's go back to this moment. This aha moment. You made three grand. You went on ebay, you bought a. A big Louis Vuitton bag.

[Louis]

Right.

[Interviewer]

And you still buy designer brand stuff today.

[Haley Stacks]

Right. I'm assuming you know a lot less. I now do a lot of luxury resale, so now it's become like a savvy hobby of mine where I have traveled around the world and I've gone to Asia, I've gone to Europe to find secondhand luxury goods, and then I'll either keep them or I'll flip them. Really? Yes.

[Interviewer]

Oh, so you make like.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I mean, use it for a few months and you can make money.

[Haley Stacks]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, it's more of an asset.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, it's an. I mean, but it's a hobby. It's still. It's not going to change my life, the money that I make on it. But it's become more gamified. But I'm very outspoken against, you know, the. The whole, like, Birkin culture online, which I fell for, too.

[Interviewer]

What's that? I don't even know.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, the Birkin bag from.

[Interviewer]

What's the culture about it?

[Haley Stacks]

You know, there was so much information out there that is perpetuated that a Birkin is as good of an investment as the S&P 500. And so it sort of tricks women into thinking that, like, you should spend 20 grand on a bag. And that that's like, a really good idea because, yeah, it's gonna beat the stock market. And you can wear it and it's like, gonna make you look rich, but it's also gonna make you rich. And it's like, in actuality, those numbers are not correct. They are completely graded on a curve. Of course, there are some very rare assets that come from Hermes. That's like the crocodile diamond secret.

[Interviewer]

Like, you know, 20 of them in the world.

[Haley Stacks]

Yep. And those are going to swing the whole pendulum one way. But for most people, put your money in the stock market. Like, what are you doing? It makes no sense.

[Interviewer]

When should someone buy a 5, 10, or $20,000 bag or luxury item, like, brand item?

[Haley Stacks]

Well, I think it all comes down, first of all to figuring out what you really value. Like, you know, for me, I realized that I actually really did like the game of luxury, and I was interested in it, and I did look at it as an asset, and it was like, sort of educational and fun and this, like, little chase. And so that's something that I actually really value. But I think that, like, when I started, it was something that I was just buying to sort of keep up with the Joneses, because I was a wolf with no clothing, or what they call it. Sheep with no clothes. Yeah. Yeah. So it was all a facade, really. Yeah, it was a mask of, you know, like, don't look too closely over here, because there's not much underneath the surface. But when there is stuff beneath the surface, you don't need the mask. That's why you see, like, billionaires in sweatpants, you know, like, because they're like, yeah, I'm good. Like, I don't need to flex anymore.

[Interviewer]

How long were you doing that? Like, trying to buy designer brands or whatever, until you realize, like, oh, maybe I should reevaluate this, why I'm doing this. Like, how long were you doing that for?

[Haley Stacks]

I mean, that bag was a wake up call for me.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. Because I was already on my financial journey at that point, and I was like, yeah, it's, like, crazy that I have this asset or not asset even. Like, I have this bag, but it's like, I'm struggling to actually pay my rent this month.

[Interviewer]

That's interesting.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. And, like, this makes no sense. And so now more dollars. Yeah. Good. I like that you're the comedian now, but. Yeah. And so then, you know, I really started to focus on value based spending.

[Interviewer]

What is value based spending?

[Haley Stacks]

So it's when you really. Because you could have anything, Louis, but you can't have everything. And I think so much of financial advice makes you feel like you have to deprive yourself to get where you want to go, but in reality, you can actually just implement your dollars towards what you value to live a life that feels. Feels like, so much fuller and, you know, you get so much more out of it. And so, you know, picking a few categories of things that you really like to spend on. Like, for example, I don't really care about coffees. Like, there's a lot of people who I feel, like, love to have their, like, little sweet treat, whatever. That's something that I could cut really easily from my budget. But then there's other things. Like, I have a dog walker. And that's, like, really big part of my life that I wouldn't give up because it's like, it allows me to work more. And, like, I know that my dog's being taken care of, which helps my mental health. And so it's like, you know, what are those trade offs, you know?

[Interviewer]

Sure. That's great. Then what's. What would you say is the mindset difference between someone who makes money versus someone who's building wealth?

[Haley Stacks]

Oh, this is such a great, great question, Louis, because there's actually a story of someone in the book. It's a real story of this guy named Ronald who was. Who's a janitor. And so he never made. Yeah, he didn't have a high salary, but he died with $8 million.

[Interviewer]

Come on.

[Haley Stacks]

$8 million?

[Interviewer]

A janitor's whole life.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, janitor's whole life. But was. No, he worked as a gas station attendant as well. Okay, so it was between. But like, neither are high paying jobs.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Haley Stacks]

And then he was able to. He died in Vermont, and he was able to. He donated the money to the library there and to the hospital. He really made a difference, but he lived frugally, so he always had action money. Right. And he. And he also invested in his financial literacy, so he understood index funds and put money away consistently in them. So they were compounding over time. And he was able to then, you know, at the end of his life, see this massive profit. Because we know that, you know, with compound interest, it's like a snowball running down a hill. It gets bigger and bigger and bigger. It builds on itself. And so I think that's such a good example, because people think that in order to be rich, you have to have this really high salary. But like, you, that's not true. You just have to spend less than you make and be putting the difference

[Interviewer]

to work with all the. I mean, I could imagine people in their 20s or 30s right now saying, that sounds nice that he had $8 million when he died, but he didn't live a full life because he didn't spend any of it. And since I get 5,000 advertisements a day and every musical venue and Coachella and whatever travel and trip and adventure that's trying to sell me something right now, I'm going to go live my life to the fullest. So what do you say to someone in their 20s and 30s who's like, I want to live my life full now and not die with a bunch of money in the bank.

[Haley Stacks]

The people who are like, forget your 401k, I want 401k memories.

[Interviewer]

Right, right. Exactly.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, we talked about compound interest and the importance of starting early, and I just think that it's such a missed opportunity to get your money in the market. But I also understand that right now we are fed so much a people who are living these crazy lives. Like whenever you go online, you're seeing someone who's your age who's like 10 times hotter than you, has like 10 times better of a relationship. They're going on 10 times more vacations, like they're just 10x everything and you're like, shoot, like this. What I'm looking around at not doing much for me now, like this sort of sucks actually. So then you think, okay, let me go buy the thing that they have because it's going to make me feel like them and give me their life. But that's not how it works. Then you just have that thing and. But you don't have anything else and you're actually in debt, which causes you a lot of financial stress. And it just adds to a life that's keeping you really small. And so I think that it's really. That's why the whole first part of Future Rich Person is so much about mindset because you have to understand those triggers and you also have to learn emotional regulation because if you don't, then you're just going to keep acting impulsively trying to keep up with the Joneses.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Louis]

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[Interviewer]

I mean, it seems like a lot of people have shame that they carry around money. It seems like it. Why do you think so many people carry shame when they think about money? Talk about money, don't talk about money. And what is the process you have for them with the kind of judgment free finance conversation you share?

[Haley Stacks]

I think that shame really comes from when we are trying to hide something, like when we don't want someone to see us fully. And money is so tied to value, like even in the world, like a dollar can get you something like it's valuable. And so I think that a lot of us think that however much money we have is how valuable we are. And that's really complicated because if you don't have that much money, then you're not going to think that you're valuable. And that's also why I think we see people faking looking rich because that gives perceived value.

[Interviewer]

They want to show like they're more valuable than they are.

[Haley Stacks]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

When someone shows that they're more valuable than they actually are internally, then what happens with that disconnect?

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, well, then you're just living a life that's not truthful and it's always going to catch up to you because you're, you know, living on borrowed money and that's a hedonic treadmill. Like, you know, it's getting out of debt is very hard. It's not impossible, but it's something you have to really focus on.

[Interviewer]

It's hard.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, it is hard. And so, yeah, I would say if you're someone who's living with a lot of money, shame. First of all, know that it's not your fault. Like this is never taught. And money relationships are basically set by the time you're seven years old. And so depending on how you grew up, like there's a part of the money mindset, part of my book, there's a whole part on blame where I'm like, look, yeah, you're responsible for a lot of this, but there's also a lot of forces outside of you that are causing you to feel like this about your finances. So let's. We might not be able to change them, but we can work around them. And doesn't it feel good to name them? Because then you can sort of take some of the impetus off of yourself.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Did you ever have any blame or frustration around your father for having this knowledge and not passing it down to you?

[Haley Stacks]

I mean, yeah, I, like, still have it with him, really, the amount of work that I do to try and get him to do estate planning. And I'm so obsessed with planning for death because I. Sorry, but I know I'm gonna be so upset when my parents pass away. I'm so close to them, it's gonna devastate me.

[Interviewer]

Irrelevant of money and things and all this.

[Haley Stacks]

I don't want. Yeah. Like, I want to be able to deal with my grief outside of wondering, oh, do I have access to their bank account? What are. How do I get access to their digital files? Like, you know, where. Who's. How do I pay the mortgage? Like, I want to understand these things while everyone is healthy and, you know, alive. And there's a lot of secrecy around it because I think that. Yeah, because I think that he has seen. He works with such high net worth individuals and families, and he's seen how much, you know, Warren Buffett always says you should always give a kid so much enough money that they can do whatever they want, but not enough money that they don't have to do anything. And I think that my dad has seen a lot of kids who got enough money they didn't have to do anything, and it really depleted their sense of worth because then they were sort of, you know, helpless. Like, they didn't really have any purpose.

[Interviewer]

For kids that are born into money, what is the biggest challenge they'll face and the biggest challenge, biggest opportunity that they'll have as well in their favor?

[Haley Stacks]

I think the biggest challenge that you face is financial literacy.

[Interviewer]

Really.

[Haley Stacks]

I think it's the same for everyone because it's not inherit, like I said, it's not inherited. And so. And also understanding the power of financial independence because, you know, it's such a privilege to be born into anything. And I would, you know, I don't want to complain at all because, like, that is so much better to have that than not. But also, it does keep you Stuck whenever you don't have control over your finances, it means that people have a say on your decisions and how you live your life and that you, you know, nothing's free. Even in relationships. Like, if you marry a rich guy, because that's what you're solving for, you're going to pay for it every day, you know, and it's the same in families where it's like, then there's expectations set on you. And so the best thing that you can do is empower yourself financially so you can make your own money, because that's going to let you be able to live your own life.

[Interviewer]

For. For women who marry for money intentionally, they know in their mind, I'm marrying this man because he's got money and he's going to be able to provide or whatever it is. What typically happens in those relationships when they marry for the primary reason that they have money?

[Haley Stacks]

Well, I mean, you got into a situation where you're dependent and you don't have any ability to leave, and it keeps your, you know, keeps your life really small. Like, I. Okay, I have a story in the book. It's actually about my best friend. I asked her if I can include it. She said yes. And she was someone who was always solving for a rich guy.

[Interviewer]

What does that look like? What does that mean?

[Haley Stacks]

So when I first met her, she was living in a townhouse in Brooklyn Heights because she was seriously dating this guy who was, like, the heir to a fruit fortune. And she's really ambitious, Louis. Like, at that point in her life, she had this job that was. She was like one of the million milers on United because she was traveling all the time for work. She was just, like, taking off, like a rocket ship in her career and, you know, making money, providing for herself. But also, I think there was some part of her that was, you know, solving for the rich guy. And this guy didn't have that career and wasn't supportive of her grind and her hustle, and they were not aligned. And it broke off and, you know, he was cheating the whole thing. And so then the next guy, she started to date another rich guy. And he. I remember she called me and she was like, oh, my God, we're going fly fishing. He. It was like one of their first, you know, weekends away. He bought me full new outfit to go fly fishing, tags on. She could see it was like, $600. Yeah. And. But she was like, that's such a waste. Like, I might never go fly fishing again. Like, this is. Why would you buy me A new outfit for this. I could borrow it from, like, the people that we're going with. Like, it's rich. But it was not her. It was not how she value. They were not aligned with their values.

[Interviewer]

She thought it was a waste.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, she thought it was a waste. He thought it was nice. It was like a throwaway for him. But for her, it was like, that's real money. Why are you being so wasteful? The guy that she's with now, who she's engaged to, no generational wealth, son of a plumber, but picks her up from the airport every time that she flies in. And me, too, if I'm with her, because she. He knows that she doesn't, you know, like, spending money on Ubers from the airport. She thinks it's a waste. And their favorite inside joke is making fun of people who uber home from Trader Joe's because they're like, oh, my God, like, why would you, like, go to, you know, get some good deals on food? There's been a waste. All their savings on an Uber. Like, they're. And he's really ambitious, too, and, like, really into her hustle. And together they're building something together. But it's not necessarily that they. You know, that he. They came from the same place, but they're going in the same direction. And there's. I think there's something really beautiful in that.

[Interviewer]

That's cool. So I want to go back to what you said. You said you still have some issues with your dad.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, my dad's gonna watch this episode. He's, like, cool. I didn't realize you were airing me out. No, he. I love my. I'm so close with my dad. I want to be super clear, but he just is not. He's. He's seen a lot with money and how it affects families, and so he's extremely. Instead of. I'm very open. I love to be open about money. He's very closed.

[Interviewer]

Even still today. Even with you being more open and

[Haley Stacks]

learning more and having my. I'm. I mean, I was. I'm a millionaire. Like, I. Yes, I came from money, but, like, give me it. Like, it's like, you know, I've made the money. Like, it's like, I'm fighting. I can do whatever I want. Like, I'm free. And so it's like, doesn't matter.

[Interviewer]

I'm a dad. You know, my. I have twin girls. Six months old. What are three things you wish your father. Not making him wrong, but what are three things you wish he taught you? About money growing up that new parents can, can share with their kids.

[Haley Stacks]

I love that. So.

[Interviewer]

Or maybe it's not teaching, maybe it's a way of being. Maybe it's like three habits. I don't know, three things that we can do.

[Haley Stacks]

I love that. Yeah. So I would say number one, to really think about how you talk about money, because kids really pick up on that.

[Interviewer]

How should you talk is about the words you use, the energy you have around your conversations. What do you mean?

[Haley Stacks]

I think it's important to make sure that you don't speak from a place of scarcity, but you speak from a place of value.

[Interviewer]

So the difference between scarcity and value.

[Haley Stacks]

So okay, for example, say you're at the store and your child wants to, you know, get a, a toy and you say we can't afford that. That's very different than saying we're saving towards something else. Like we have this other goal that we're working towards. So that doesn't align with our spending right now. Cause then it shows them that like you're working towards something else, you're value driven versus making them feel like there's not enough, you know. So just thinking through, you know, how you are talking about money and making sure that you aren't making your child feel like there is not enough, but rather that like you're all working together towards something bigger.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Haley Stacks]

Towards shared goals.

[Interviewer]

That's the one thing. What's the second thing you wish your dad or parents should share with their kids?

[Haley Stacks]

You know, I think that you should put a dollar amount on chores and like help around the house so that children have their own money to manage. I wish that I had had that when I was younger so much because I talk about this in the book. Like my first financial memory of literally just wanting like a snack at school. But I didn't have any money. Like I didn't have a job and I didn't have an allowance. And so I would sort of like sheepishly. There was this plastic container above the washing machine that had like some spare dollar bills. Maybe I'd find a 5 if I was lucky and I would, you know, grab it and go. And it was always sort of secretive and, you know, weird and a little shame around. Shameful. I don't know how to get this any other way. I'm looking outside of myself. But also like, you know, it just felt sort of dirty. But I wish that. But I was always, you know, helpful around the house. Dishwasher, like, you know, perfect. Report from the babysitter. The Whole thing. So I wish that they had instead been, like, great. You did. You did the dishes every night this week. Here's, you know, $5. And then I could decide what to do with that.

[Interviewer]

Did you ever ask your parents for money, or were you like, hey, can I have $5?

[Haley Stacks]

No, I didn't even ask them for money. It was, like, so weird. It was sort of like, sneaking around. And then I saw that play out later in my life where, you know, I felt like I couldn't really rely on myself for money because no one had really, like, empowered me in that way. It was. And so I was, you know, looking outside of myself for ways to get it versus just being like, I'm smart enough to do this. I can absolutely earn my own way. And, like, let me just go for it.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay. And then put a dollar amount on chores or, like, give them some money to.

[Haley Stacks]

To manage, I think is really helpful.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Haley Stacks]

And then number three, I would say to explain taxes to them through taxing that allowance, but then use it towards, like, your family as a. As a government or, like, as a state. So, okay, you're getting, you know, $10 in allowance, but, you know, taxes are 30%, so it's really gonna be $7. And then, you know, say you have three kids. That's $9 in the pot from the quote, unquote taxes. And then having a family meeting and deciding, okay, how do we want to use this? Are we saving towards a trampoline? Do we want to go to Disney World and, like, putting it towards something bigger that you guys are all working towards? But I think that that's, like, a really great teachable moment because so many people are never taugh. Taxes work, and they're the biggest expense that we'll ever pay.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Haley Stacks]

And there's something you have to get used to. And so I think that you can, like, start teaching that so early on.

[Interviewer]

I love that idea. And I also like the idea of, like, making it around service. Like that tax we have to give away.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Whether it's to our church or to a charity or to whatever. Like, we don't keep that. You don't get. You don't get the tax money you have to give away to the government.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But let's use this for good that

[Louis]

we want to do.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Maybe you don't like what the government does because you don't know what the government doing with your money, but you can't get around it. But this money, we can do good with it.

[Haley Stacks]

I love that.

[Interviewer]

So I Think that'd be interesting instead of like, I mean for me a trampoline.

[Haley Stacks]

No.

[Interviewer]

Trampoline. Yeah, something like that. Use the money for the trampoline that you have.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But the taxes. Use it towards church or something else. You know, whatever it might be, give us. I think that could be good because then you're instilling service mindset as well.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

As learning to pay taxes. That's interesting. I've never seen that tax thing before. That's cool.

[Louis]

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[Louis]

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[Louis]

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[Louis]

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[Interviewer]

What is the greatest money advice your dad has taught you? Whether through his behavior or actions or lack thereof?

[Haley Stacks]

You know, my dad is successful, but he's really low key and really generous. So like, he gives away so much money but also like, has like, drives an old jeep, wears hokas every day with like, just like some sort of down vest. And like, you know, he's very unassuming and I love that about him. And I think, and it's, I always say, like, dad, do you think it's crazy that you have a daughter who has like this like, luxury disease? Because I'm like, how did I get this mental illness of like, why do I, Why? Like, I've had to rework my brain so much from like, you know, wanting to look rich versus being rich. And he's like, no, you know, I think it's a lot about your upbringing and whatever, and so he understands, but it's like he doesn't have it at all. He's so, he would give the shirt off of his back. Like, he's so humble. And so I think that's been something that I've learned from him. That's amazing. But then, you know, also just compound interest and how simple it is to grow wealth. Like I, you know, now have my own investment portfolio. Of course I'm very passionate about investing and I talked to him about it and what's so crazy is that what I'm investing in and what I tell my audience to invest in, these low cost index funds, they're the same vehicles that the billionaires are putting their money into. Like, it's not like you need some secret cheat sheet or whatever. I always say you should want an above average relationship, above average life, above average travels, experiences, food, sex, whatever it is. But you want your investment returns to be average. Do not chase getting rich quick.

[Interviewer]

Why?

[Haley Stacks]

Because it'll never work out for you. It's too risky.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Haley Stacks]

Slow and steady wins the race.

[Interviewer]

That's it.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

How long have you been investing for?

[Haley Stacks]

I wish I had Started earlier, but I started probably when I was like 27.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Haley Stacks]

Because, yeah, my aha. Money moment was around the time I was like, 25. And then it took me about, like a year to really get a handle on my spending and also to build my emergency fund. Which.

[Interviewer]

Were you in debt back then?

[Haley Stacks]

I wasn't in debt, but I was in, like, family debt. You know what I mean? Like, I wasn't living a free life, sure. But I was like, you know, what

[Interviewer]

does that mean, being in family debt?

[Haley Stacks]

Well, you know, like my. My apartment at that time was maybe like fifteen hundred dollars. And, you know, I think my parents paid for half of it. So it was subsidized. Yeah, it was subsidized.

[Interviewer]

And there's strings attached.

[Haley Stacks]

So many strings attached.

[Interviewer]

What are. What are the strings attached to being an adult who's still an adult over 21, out of college, who's still getting funding through their parents.

[Haley Stacks]

Okay. So there's a story in the book about this of this girl who is marrying someone who has money. She didn't come from money. And the mother in law takes control of the wedding and. And is like, thinks that she's being so generous and wants to throw. It starts to throw this, like, huge $500,000 wedding crazy. And the bride is left totally just like sort of in the corner because it becomes the mother in law's show.

[Interviewer]

Not the bride's wedding anymore.

[Haley Stacks]

It's not the bride's wedding anymore. Exactly.

[Interviewer]

You're. You're a doll.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. You're.

[Interviewer]

It's not your wedding.

[Haley Stacks]

No, it's not your wedding at all. Exactly. The, you know, and the mother in law had a better dress, and she. It was all her friends coming, and it was like, you know, this woman wondering, what can I do? Like, this is, you know, like, this is not the wedding that I want. Should I push to, you know, have the wedding that I want and, you know, like, look a gift horse in the mouth or should I just go along with it? And I thought that it was such an interesting moment because, you know, she would of course, be silly to, like, you know, say no to something so generous. But in the same way, what's gonna happen after the wedding? The mom. The mother in law is then going to say, hey, bought you a house, but it's right next door to me, so I get to come whenever you want, whatever. I want to see the baby or, you know, oh, hey, like, I would love to pay for your children's school, but they have to go to this school. And, like, Maybe it's a religious school. Maybe that's not like the religion that you want or, you know, like there's just. It always comes with rules attached. And that's why financial independence and freedom is so important, because it gives you the paintbrush to, you know, build your own life versus having to like, live in someone else's.

[Louis]

How did that feel?

[Interviewer]

I mean, it must also be nice to be like, oh, my dad's helping me pay for rent and you know, I'm going after my dreams in New York City. It's expensive here. Isn't that also like a generous thing?

[Haley Stacks]

Oh my God, it was so generous. It was so kind. And I also think that, like, there's, you know, I, one of, I teach people. There's a whole chapter in the book about rich kids. Like, I think that it's such a gift to give your kids this financial stability and it's such a leg up. Like, I would be, you know, an to complain about it. Like, I understand that completely and I, you know, am so grateful to them. And I. It's more just the lack of financial literacy that I think was really harmful because it kept me in a place where I was always looking outside of

[Interviewer]

myself versus dependent on something else.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, and then when I started to be dependent on myself, that's when like, my life really became so amazing. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What is the greatest skill someone can learn to be able to develop more money themselves?

[Haley Stacks]

I mean, look at you with the cat. It's that self belief. It's switching your mindset to thinking, okay, like, no, I am a future rich person. I can do this. But then, of course, you do need the tactical tools. Like you need to understand how the stock market works, how taxes work, how to negotiate, how to, you know, I have a whole part in the book about setting up businesses because it's like, you know, we're my millennials and Gen Z are the biggest generations of entrepreneurs. But guess what else isn't taught in school besides budgeting and taxes? How to set up a corporate entity. How to, you know, invest for retirement when you don't have a 401k from a corporate job. So it's like really important to get this financial literacy out there so that people can succeed.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And what, what are three things that a lot of people do that will never make them rich?

[Haley Stacks]

Such an interesting question because I feel like it's sort of different for each person, but definitely, I mean, it starts with spending beyond your means.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Haley Stacks]

That's number one. When you have Sunk cost fallacy around your career.

[Interviewer]

What does that mean?

[Haley Stacks]

So you're in a job that's maybe not giving you, you know, 10 to 20% increase in salary every two to three years, which is really important. And so. But you've been there for so long that you feel like, okay, I should just stay here because, like, one day it's magically gonna happen. So much better to cut your losses and then not investing. Investing is the key to growing wealth. And it's not complicated, but it's something that everyone really has to do if they want financial freedom.

[Interviewer]

What's the percentage of people in their 20s that you think is investing? Do you know?

[Haley Stacks]

Well, I do know that Gen Z has the most contributions to their 401ks than any generation, really. So it is interesting to see the impact of social media on financial literacy because I think that it is becoming so much more normalized to be good with money, to take control of your

[Interviewer]

finances, promoting it more to this younger generation. Generation.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. 100.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. That's interesting. What would you say is your biggest money wound today after being a millionaire?

[Haley Stacks]

My biggest money wound is wanting more versus having enough.

[Interviewer]

Tell me more.

[Haley Stacks]

Look, like, I. I love money. I'm all about abundance. And I also, you know, it's such an amazing tool to be able to make a difference in the world. Like, you talk a lot about service. Like, that's so important to me too. But I think my biggest money wound is like, I was searching so much for financial freedom and I put it on this huge pedestal. And so I've worked relentlessly the last, like eight to 10 years to get to this point where now, like, I do, I am a millionaire. Like, I have, you know, money in the bank and invested and, you know, I'm in a good position. But now I am really interested in building out the other parts of my life. So because I think that you can have. It's very simple sort of to have a lot of one thing. Right. But it's a lot harder to have some of many things. And so for me, I really put balance on a pedestal. And like, you know, now you do. Yeah, because I'm like, okay, if I could have career, health and relationships and spirituality, then that would be really sick, you know, But I had to get that. Yeah, it'd be sick in a good way. But like, you know, the. I had to start with the money wound, and now I'm working on building out everything else interesting, you know, and it takes time.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, the money one would gave you a sense of Financial independence, financial freedom, not being dependent on parents or outside forces. And so you've taken control of that. But what I'm hearing you say is you haven't gotten the other things.

[Haley Stacks]

No. And I'm looking for them, like, now I'm focused so much more on them.

[Interviewer]

What's the main thing missing in your life right now?

[Haley Stacks]

Oh, I mean, I want to have. I want to get married and have kids. That's. That's the biggest thing.

[Interviewer]

Why?

[Haley Stacks]

Just because, I mean, my parents have, like, an amazing partnership. And I think that when you're in the right relationship. We were talking about this before we started filming that, like, when you're able to find the right partner, it really can be like, one plus one equals three, you know, And I, you know, I have a beautiful life on my own that I love, but I am, you know, I really do want to be a mom, and I don't. I think that that's something that I really love to do with someone else. So. Yeah. But I'm not impatient, so I won't. I wouldn't do it impulsively or, like, with the wrong person. And that's why, you know, money is also so amazing because. Because of my financial independence, I've been able to freeze my eggs, which then has bought me so much time. Time and, you know, choice. I don't have to rush. Women used to basically have to belong to a man to have any upward mobility. Like, we couldn't have credit cards till 1974 on our own, so you could. We couldn't take out business loans till 1988. Like, so it's, you know, it's very new for us to have this freedom. And I take it really seriously to use it to actually carve a life that, like, my grandma would be jealous of, you know.

[Interviewer]

When do you think you will know you're ready for the right relationship? What needs to happen for you to say, okay, I'm going to commit and go down the path of, you know, being together, getting engaged, getting married.

[Haley Stacks]

I think it is meeting the right person. Like, I've done a lot of work on myself, and so I think that it's just about building trust with the right person and then making sure that we have the same financial values, family values, you know, spiritual values, all of these sexual values. Like, that we're aligned on all of these other planes is so important. But I'm also like, you know, I was with a friend yesterday who has been married for, like, 10 years, and her husband is a different man than when I Met him because they have grown so much together. He is now like yassified. Like he's like awesome version of himself. I'm like, go off king, like you're killing it, you know, Like, I'm so happy for them. They have two kids. Yeah. And so I think it's also about really seeing the potential with someone too. It's not like someone has to come in so perfectly, but it's about like, okay, is this someone that's going to make me better that I can make better that we can build with?

[Interviewer]

Mm, that's cool. I'm curious what you think in order for someone to increase their net worth, what needs to change within their self worth so that they can receive more money and feel peaceful around that money.

[Haley Stacks]

So in the book I have my 5 step money mindset program called Ibiza, which unfortunately it doesn't mean that I give you a ticket to Spain, although maybe I'll see you there. And each of the letters in Ibiza stands for step. And so I is identify, B is blame, I is interrupt, Z is judge, and then A is action, of course. And so I think it's really important to just work those steps so that then you're able to, yeah. Shift your self identity so that you are someone who's able to, you know, be able to handle money. Because a lot of people will then get money and they'll like, it'll slip through their fingers right away because they are scared to hold on to it. They're like, I don't know what to do with this. Like, and that's also why we see, I see this a lot with women that they will have huge amounts of money sitting in their checking account because it makes them feel safe, but they don't know exactly what to do with it. And so it's just like there. But they're not putting it to work. But maybe they know a little bit that they should be putting it to work. But like they, you know, it's something that is. Feels very off limits and sort of out of bounds. And so yeah, it really just comes from working that those steps. And I've been using that program for like eight years. It's helped tens of thousands of people. Yeah, it really works.

[Interviewer]

Was it identify blame?

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What are the first two? What does that mean?

[Haley Stacks]

So identify is to identify your like stuck money beliefs and like your patterns. And most people never look at themselves in that way. So, you know, the same way we go to therapy, we figure out, okay, why I could keep getting in this bad relationship. Let's figure out why you're broke or why you're stuck with, you know, at a certain net worth, or, you know, why you can't leave that job or, you know, why you can't leave that relationship that maybe gives you financial security. Like, what is it actually about yourself where you're like, wait, maybe I can't take care of myself. Or, you know, maybe there's not something else out there for me. Or, you know, like, we have to break down those limiting beliefs.

[Interviewer]

Yes. Okay.

[Haley Stacks]

And then B is blame, which I think I talked about a little. But it's like, you know, there's a lot of. You can't talk about building wealth in America without talking about, like, the systemic issues that hold many people back. You know, most people really, besides, like, no offense, white guys.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Haley Stacks]

And so, you know, blaming that is okay. My therapist says don't blame, but I think you can blame a little. You can blame. It's important to ident to, you know, to, you know, talk about what's working against you. And it doesn't mean that just because there's forces working against you, you can't win.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Haley Stacks]

But still, gotta call them out.

[Interviewer]

Knowledge. This is what's been challenging me and holding me back. Right? Yeah, exactly.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. And then I is interrupt, which I'm sure, you know, you're someone who's really changed your life a lot, and I'm sure you had to interrupt a lot of bad thoughts in order to get yourself to the place that you're at now. 100, probably still, you know, it's a once in a while.

[Interviewer]

But, yeah. I mean, I feel like I'm really in a good system. Like, the moment I wake up, throughout the day, I'm constantly thinking of gratitude. I love that appreciation and gratitude of like, listen, do negative thoughts come in? Yes. But then I'm like, all right, this doesn't make me feel good. Can I do something about it? If not, then go back to gratitude. If I can do something, take the action, and then move back into gratitude,

[Haley Stacks]

that's a great practice.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. It's just. I mean, again, 90% of my day, I'm feeling and thinking empowering things. When there is a breakdown or something that frustrates me or, you know, I'm not perfect. I'm human. If something makes me angry, I might sit in it for a few minutes, but then I'm like, all right, can I act upon this? So I stopped feeling this. Not react. But can I act upon it or can I? Course. Correct. And if not, Then I can't do anything about it. There's nothing I can do. I can't change some system. You know, it's like, if I can let me act on it and feel empowered and then go back to appreciation and gratitude.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, well, that's the best way I can. You know, you don't have helplessness, though. Like, everything is within your locus of control, which is a huge mindset shift that people have to have in order to become future rich people or to grow wealth to change their lives at all.

[Interviewer]

I used to feel pretty helpless, though, in my early 20s, because I was, like, broke and dependent on people and felt like I can't make any money and everyone's out to get me.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Interviewer]

System and the system.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

No one wants to hire me. All these things.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I felt all those frustrations, and then I started meeting mentors that I was like, oh, they have certain skills that I would like to acquire. Let me learn from them on how they acquired them. And, okay, let me go spend a week every year learning how to do public speaking. Let me go learn these other skills that. It helped them generate financial freedom. I had to learn how to read and write in my 20s. I wrote a book when I was 25, and I had a mentor who had written a number of books, and he worked with me every week on learning how to write.

[Haley Stacks]

Wow.

[Interviewer]

To write a book. And I spent a year doing that. I was like, how do I develop skills to become more valuable, have more confidence, and then share more value to other people? But it took work. Can't just be a victim. You have to learn something.

[Haley Stacks]

So true. And I always talk about that as a, you know, a big part. One of the new rules of building wealth that I feel like people don't talk about enough is just like, you know, we put so much energy towards saving money. It feels so easy for so many people, I think, to cut back. But I have a whole chapter in the book called Secure the Damn Bag about helping people instead shift their mindset to making more.

[Interviewer]

And you're not talking about the Louis Vuitton bag.

[Haley Stacks]

No, no, no. Yeah. No, no, no. I know you're not gonna let me live that down.

[Interviewer]

Secure the bag.

[Haley Stacks]

Secure the damn bag.

[Interviewer]

What does secure the damn bag mean?

[Haley Stacks]

Secure the damn bag means, like, you know, we have a finite amount of this financial energy every day. So instead of focusing on all the things that you can cut back, think about how you can actually earn more, because that's gonna move the needle so much more for you. So like, you know, and investing in your skills. 70% of people who increase their skills see a huge career boost.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. I saw that statistic today because I was doing a whole video about how reading ways for people to increase their income and really, you know, increasing your skills 10 out of 10. And especially now in the age of AI, people are so scared that AI is going to take their jobs, but it's really that people who know how to use AI are going to take their jobs. So, like, invest in the skills so that you can, you know, understand that system future.

[Interviewer]

Proof yourself, too.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, I have a lot about AI in the book as well.

[Interviewer]

What are three skills that anyone, no matter how old you are today, can learn to develop to earn more money in the future?

[Haley Stacks]

Well, I think it's dependent on your industry. Like, you know, it might be that you need to learn video editing. It might. For you, it was that you needed to learn probably public speaking and writing books. And, you know, for me, it was I. And I still invest every day in my financial literacy. Like, I. That's why I was so passionate about writing a book about money is because I am the biggest consumer of money books. They've changed my life. Like, I truly believe that what stands between any person and the life that they desire is just a money book that actually makes sense to them. And that's why I wrote this book, because it's like, it's in plain English. There's tons of celebrity references. There's a lot about my life, like, you know, a lot of stories from people. So it's sort of like a brownie with spinach in it that you. I wanted it to be like a binge read, but at the end of the day, you're like, wow, I really have, you know, increased my financial knowledge and now I know exactly what to do.

[Interviewer]

That's big.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I remember I was in, like, I can't remember if I was like 18 or 20 grand in debt, but it was somewhere around there. And I read I Will Teach youh to Be Rich by Ramit Sethi.

[Haley Stacks]

Such a good one.

[Interviewer]

Within six months, I was completely out of debt. And I felt free from that. That kind of debt that I was in. And it just gave me a better framework for how to do things moving forward. And that was kind of like early stages of my financial literacy journey, I guess. And where and when you get little financial wins, you want to learn more.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, you become addicted to.

[Interviewer]

Okay, how do I learn how to maximize this? And there's a lot at this season of life now, getting married and joining assets and creating trusts and all these different things. It's like. Like I feel like I still know nothing about money. Like, there's so many new levels.

[Haley Stacks]

Oh, there's so you. I mean.

[Interviewer]

You know what I mean?

[Louis]

It's like now I'm at a whole new level.

[Interviewer]

I'm like, I have no clue what I'm doing. I've never merged money. I've never merged assets. Like, what do I do now? So it's like the last year, I've been learning this process of new levels, and I feel like there's so much more to learn.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, there is for me. The I. The first book for me was Warren Buffett's Ground Rules. And it's like all of these shareholder letters of Warren Buffett to Berkshire Hathaway, and basically all of them just say the same thing, which is like, compound interest.

[Interviewer]

Compound same thing. Invest early and often.

[Haley Stacks]

Exactly. Like, don't. Like, no getting rich quick. Like, just be consistent. And so after that, I was obsessed with getting my money in the market. And I was like, okay, what do I have to do to start investing? Because it's like, the best day to invest was yesterday, and the second best day is today, and, like, we gotta get there. And I'm still like that, where I'm like, you know, obsessed with compound interest. And, like, you know, whenever I get paid or anything, I'm like, okay, this is going right in the market. I love the market. Yeah, I'm married to it. I really am. Yes.

[Louis]

This podcast is supported by Ring. With Ring, it's protected. You know those moments when you're expecting a package and you're not home and you're thinking about it all day, wondering if it's just sitting out there? That's something I think about, especially with how often we're ordering things for the house. And this is where Ring comes in. Keep track of packages and see more at the front door with battery.

[Interviewer]

Doorbell.

[Louis]

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[Interviewer]

What do you say to someone who puts a lot of like a lot of their money that they have in the market and then boom, it goes down for the next few months and they see 20, 30% of all their money they've been making for the last five to 10 years gone or hypothetically gone? Yeah, based on the number in the market. And they feel like I just made the biggest mistake of my life. I put my money in the market, it just went down 30%.

[Louis]

That was a year of my hard work money gone.

[Interviewer]

I'm never going to invest again.

[Haley Stacks]

Oh no.

[Interviewer]

What do you say to someone who has done that and they're afraid to invest in the market because of that?

[Haley Stacks]

I would say first of all, do not sell because that's how you lock your losses. And historically the market has always, always bounce back and you really have to see volatility as the tax that you pay for getting to grow wealth in the market. Because it's sort of magical that like we're able to put our money into this thing and then it just grows and gets bigger and bigger. And you know, nothing good in life comes without like some sort of trade off. So yeah, sometimes it's gonna be up and down, but that's why you have an emergency fund because you should never invest money that you need in the next five to seven years because then you know, if there is a down cycle and you're in need of that money, then you are going to have to lock your losses out and you're have to interrupt that compounding cycle. And so that's why it's so important to set up your financial life so that you're not in a position where it's so all or nothing. And you also, you have to manage Your emotions around it.

[Interviewer]

That's the biggest.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, yeah. You have to understand that, like, that's actually really normal. Like, and that actually just means the market's on sale. So, like, do I have any extra. Extra money that I could put in more? Because I'm going to be able to, like, get these index funds that I'm really into.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

On ebay.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, exactly. You're. You're never gonna let me. I'm gonna have to send you, like, a picture of the bag after. They will send it to.

[Interviewer]

Is that the bag out there?

[Haley Stacks]

No, no. You can't miss this bag, though, because, you know, the lv. So big. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

What do you think? Talk to me about AI and making money. I don't know if you've studied AI. I'm not saying you're like a master of AI, but where do you see as an opportunity for AI over the next five to 10 years? Around making money? Is it around learning it for your industry? No matter what industry you're in, is it around investing in it? Like, what is. What should people be thinking around AI and making money?

[Haley Stacks]

Well, first. Okay, so, you know, I like to use the example of the elevator because, you know, when the elevator was first invented, there was someone who would be in the elevator with you physically.

[Interviewer]

That interesting.

[Haley Stacks]

Hold it. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like still in the Upper east side.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. On the back elevators. Yeah, there are. Exactly. How'd you know that? Yeah, exactly. So, you know, the elevator person manually operating it, and then, you know, technology advances, we got buttons, and that job goes away. Does that mean that that person who was running the elevator never works again? No, they look for other opportunities to make money.

[Interviewer]

And get out of a box all day.

[Haley Stacks]

And get out of a box all day. And maybe, you know, they start working for the elevator company, whatever, they find other opportunity. But like, in. Historically, there have always been moments of technological advancement that have been scary and felt like they were going to absolutely change everything. And maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But the people who still win are the ones who ran towards that change instead of desperately clinging to what was and trying to maintain that old order. Because AI is here, we can't avoid it. And the people who are going to win are the ones who know how to use it. And so I think that specifically with finances, I have been using Claude Cowork a lot, which. Which is really simple to set up. I'll probably end up making videos about this on Mrs. Dow Jones, so stay tuned. But, you know, you can create these systems within it that can just help you manage your finances a bit easier. You can connect your email to it and, you know, set up a. A flow so that it is finding any subscriptions, things like that, to just make it a little bit easier to, like, catch things and be in control of your finances. So I think that there's a lot of opportunity, but I think that, you know, no matter what happens with automation and AI and all these things, you always have to have an eye on your bottom line or someone else will. And so you can never automate. You can never, like. Yeah, you can never fully give up your financial responsibility ever. Like, I, you know, think a lot about Rihanna. Of course, Ebony. Any girl does. You might do. She's a great gal, but, you know, when she started her career, she was, you know, 15 or 16 from Barbados, got signed to Jay Z's label, and I think they were like, she's a star. Let's get her in the studio. Let's throw her on tour. It was the whole thing. And they set her up with these financial advisors who she never second guessed because she was not someone who was, like, used to managing money. This seemed like a trustworthy situation. Okay, great. She goes on this whole world tour, working every night, touring all over the world. You would think, you know, making millions of dollars, and comes home to buy a house. There's not enough money for a house. And not only that, she realized that her taxes had been all messed up. They were overcharging her, you know, all of these things because she did not have an eye on her bottom line. And this is a great example of if you don't have an eye on your bottom line, no one else will.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Haley Stacks]

So what did Rihanna do? Fired them, got a new team, wrote, better have my money. About those accountants.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Haley Stacks]

Yes. And now, of course, happy ending. She's a billionaire. But I guarantee you, Louis, that Rihanna is signing her own checks, because it doesn't matter where technology goes, you still have to have an eye on your bottom line. Or someone else will.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, I love that.

[Interviewer]

I'm curious about old wealth versus new wealth.

[Haley Stacks]

You're obsessed with old wealth. I'm like, we're gonna do a curious about it. Yeah, I know.

[Interviewer]

I'm curious about it.

[Haley Stacks]

I'm like, I'm really. I should have worn, like, a Gossip Girl headband.

[Interviewer]

There you go.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, I'm, like, upset that I'm not on, like, a prep school blazer.

[Interviewer]

Like, what is.

[Haley Stacks]

I could have brought you some relics from my childhood.

[Interviewer]

You should have. Yeah, you should have. That Bag, you know, the bag. What is one way of thinking that old wealth still has today that makes them succeed and one way of thinking that new wealth has today that makes them succeed over the old wealth?

[Haley Stacks]

Something that old wealth does really well is they leverage. Old wealth loves debt. They are obsessed with borrowing money at a lower interest rate than they could make investing it somewhere else. And that helps them exponentially grow money. And that's why in the book, because you don't have to have old wealth to do this. In the book, I talk a lot about paying off debt and how you should be focusing on paying off debt that's above 7% interest rate because that's like high interest rate debt. But any debt below 7% interest rate, pay the minimum on and put whatever extra money you are going to put towards that debt into the market where you could earn more than 7% because the market on average is 8 to 10%. So you have that difference. So I think that is a key thing that old money does. Yeah, they, they're, they love to leverage and they also love to grow generational wealth, which is why I have a whole chapter on rich kids too, with all the secrets of how to set your kids up. Because it really. Kids are so young, they're zero. You know, when they come out pretty young, they got a lot of time for compounding. So even if you start with, you know, small increments of money, you can grow them a lot. But you also have to remember to put your own max oxygen mask on first because they can take out loans for school, but you cannot take out loans for retirement. So, you know, don't get too caught up in it.

[Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. And then the new rules of building wealth that I feel like the old guard, like needs to understand more is like, you know, this whole rent versus buy thing. I feel like there is such a premium put on owning property. But you know, in many places in America, like if you rent and invest your down payment money instead, you're actually going to make more. So, you know, I think like old wealth is very obsessed with owning assets, which is so important. But I think new wealth sees the opportunity that is without like judgment or the, you know, like having to do things just because everyone else did them.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Did your dad, does he want to create generational wealth with you?

[Haley Stacks]

Oh, my dad is like really intense about like, like for, like for generation, like wants it to be like, won't let, there's, you can't touch the money. Like whatever there is there. It's like it's not. It's very tightly guarded, you know, because it's. I think that he. He wants to.

[Interviewer]

He doesn't do with it.

[Haley Stacks]

I don't know what he wants. He just doesn't want what happens to so many of his clients, kids to happen to us.

[Interviewer]

You know, you take the money, you spend it all, then you're broke or something.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. Or to just make a bad decision. But the thing is, is, like, everyone's gonna make money mistakes. Like, he's made money mistakes, too. I've made money mistakes. You made money mistakes. Like, it's like, don't cry over spilled milk as long as you didn't lose the cow. Like, we have to. You have to take risk in order to, like, get where you want to go in life a little bit. So, you know. But, yeah, I think that it's complicated for him.

[Interviewer]

Your book's exciting. Future Rich Person the New Rules for Building Wealth. Not the old rules. The new rules.

[Haley Stacks]

The new rules.

[Interviewer]

I want people to get a copy of the book. A lot of great stories and lessons in here for people, so make sure to get a copy. Get one for your friends as well. If you know someone who's struggling financially, maybe they feel stuck or maybe, you know, that they try to overspend to fit in, but, you know, they don't have anything in investments or saving or they still have debt. Maybe just get them a copy of this book by Haley Sachs and check it out. Future Rich Person. I think everyone wants to be a future rich person. They want to be rich now and in the future. And I think the power of compound and interest, like you said many times here, you know, the best time to invest was years ago. The second best time is today. Right? So it's like, put it in now often and as much as you can for long term. I've got a couple final questions for you. Haley and I appreciate you opening up and sharing many stories about the bag, securing the bag.

[Haley Stacks]

You're the only one who's gotten that out of me. I'm like, I have to tell my dad not to watch this.

[Interviewer]

This is a question I ask everyone at the end of the show called the Three Truths. You've already kind of shared three rules for money. But imagine you get to live as long as you want, and you have total balance in your life. Oh, I love that money. The relationship, health, family, kids, everything. And you live the life of your dreams for the rest of your life. But it's the last day on earth, many years away. And everything you've shared in your books, your content, your messages have to go with you to the next place, hypothetically. But you get three lessons to share with the world. It doesn't have to be around money, anything at all. What would those three lessons or three truths be for you?

[Haley Stacks]

Number one, I would say the importance of rest. Like, I have a pretty serious, like, TM practice, and I think that it's something that's accessible to anyone, but, like, we're so encouraged to go, go, go. But what's really helped me get ahead has been being able to slow down and give myself space every day, during the day, and I have to carve it out and fight for it. Louis, to rest a little really, really, really helps. Number two, I would say that, like, if you are sad about where you're at, if you don't feel happy in your life, the best way to get out of yourself is to give back. Find a way. And that doesn't mean necessarily with money, but just find a way to help someone be as small as smiling at them. But really, you know, finding ways to get back to your community, finding a cause that you champion, like, that's so important. And third, I would just say, like, experiences over anything. Like, I think that on my last day on Earth, I'm gonna remember, like, the sunset in Greece when I was, like, 34 with my best friends, like, you know, in the summer. Not necessarily because we were at, like, the fanciest hotel or, you know, this or that, but just because it was, like, one of the best days because it was so simple, you know, no

[Interviewer]

bag, but simple experiences.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. I don't really don't care about the bags anymore. I know, but I'm like, those are

[Interviewer]

the things, the experiences are things that I think we remember the most. You know, it's not the nice house and cars or whatever, the things we have, but the people we share things with.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah, and the bags.

[Interviewer]

And the bags.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And also you can buy the bag. If you want a nice bag, get a nice bag.

[Haley Stacks]

Yeah. And on my final day on Earth, I'm just going to think, please make sure Lewis sees that he's in my will to get the big Louis Vuitton bag.

[Interviewer]

Give him the bag.

[Haley Stacks]

Yes, give Louis the bag. He secured it.

[Interviewer]

Secure the bag. Future rich person is out. People can get it right now. Also, you got a podcast, financial tea podcast. You share a lot of your tips and strategies and lessons on there as well. And also just your social media is great content. So people want fun, entertaining financial content. They can go check it out. There as well cover a lot of stuff on culture, things that are happening right now in the world. So check that out. Love your work. Hayley, I've got one final question for you and that's what's your definition of greatness?

[Haley Stacks]

My definition of greatness is people who are able to see that the system is flawed and things aren't perfect and there's all these things, forces that are working against you and reasons from your childhood and your family not to do it. Anyways, there you go.

[Interviewer]

Appreciate it. Thanks for being here.

[Haley Stacks]

Thank you for having me.

[Interviewer]

Of course.

[Louis]

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

[Interviewer]

Make sure to check out the show

[Louis]

notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. With the US Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card, you earn an unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. No quarterly activations, no categories to track, just unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. Think about those bigger everyday purchases. Travel, groceries, things for the house where afterward you realize I could have earned cash back on that. That's the kind of opportunity that adds up over time. Visit usbank.com smartlycard to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. bank National Association. Pursuant to a license from Visa USA Inc. Some restrictions may apply.

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