Aaron Tracy (2:36)

Before we start one production note. In this episode, we again have quotes from Roald Dahl. Rather than just have me read them in my terrible British accent, we decided to bring them to life. So we used an actor's performance and some custom software to create a doll like voice. Okay, onto the episode, Roald Dahl sits comfortably at home giving what should be a casual, breezy phone interview to a popular magazine called the New Statesman. It's 1983. Dahl is at this point, without question, the most famous and most successful children's author of all time. The BFG came out just last year and was a phenomenon. The Witches is about to be published to critical acclaim. On the phone with Dahl is Michael Coren, a young theater critic. Koren is just out of college. He's not an experienced journalist or some sort of master interrogator. This isn't some kind of brilliant gotcha moment. But Dahl is in one of his dark moods. Coren asks about a book review that Dahl recently wrote. The book centered on the very thorny topic of Israel's invasion of Lebanon the previous year. Dahl decides he doesn't just want to talk about the book or his review of it. He wants to widen things. He wants to talk about the Holocaust. You know, the generational tragedy where 6 million Jewish men, women, and children were systematically exterminated. It might be the most softball topic in all of journalism. Anyone in their right mind recognizes the immense scale of the horror and expresses a firm desire for it never to be forgotten and to never happen again. Instead, here's what Roald Dahl says to the young journalist. There is a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity. Maybe it's a kind of lack of generosity towards non Jews. I mean, there's always a reason why anti anything crops up anywhere. And then he goes on to say, even a stinker like Hitler didn't just pick on them for no reason. Ugh. Okay, this is what we've been waiting for, folks. Here we go. For My Heart Podcast, Imagine Entertainment, and Parallax. I'm Aaron Tracy, and this is the Secret World of Old Dahl, Episode seven. Now, if you're worried we're about to waste a whole lot of time dissecting one unrepresentative quote that didn't really reflect who Dahl was or what he believed in. Don't be the quote I just read wasn't a one off comment. There's extensive evidence of Dahl's bigotry. Dahl biographer Jeremy Treglone records a bunch of problematic stuff that Dahl said and did throughout his life. At his social club, for instance, Dahl's daughter Tessa remembers her father complained about the number of Jews who were members. He got drunk one night and stood up to make a speech. Diners at nearby tables told him to shut up. Dahl was thrown out and his club membership was revoked, says Tregone Dahl's editor, the legendary Robert Gottlieb, who worked with so many brilliant writers from Nora Ephron to Toni Morrison to Robert Caro. He believes that Dahl's prejudice against Jews grew worse after he and Dahl had a falling out. Now a little context. Career wise, Dahl was on top, having already published most of his iconic children's books. But in his personal life, Dahl was a bit of a mess. He had divorced Patricia Neal after 30 years of marriage. He was in constant physical pain from back surgery stemming from that crash in the desert decades earlier. And while he's having all this career success, he's very insecure about people thinking he can only write for kids. So when he's offered the chance to review a book about Israel in a literary journal, he sees it as a rare opportunity to write for adults and he's going to make the most of it. As I mentioned, the review comes out in 1983. It's not excusing Dahl to say that certain prejudices were more common in mainstream culture back then. Just look at our movies of the era. Some of the biggest films of 1983 to 1984 were Sixteen Candles, the John Hughes classic featuring Long Duk Dong, the Chinese exchange student Trading the Eddie Murphy breakout, which includes blackface along with a bunch of class based stereotypes, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, where Indian characters are depicted as either noble mystics or bloodthirsty savages. And on tv, three's Company is the Big show, which is basically one long gay panic joke. Now, a confession. I still love some of those movies and that's part of why this is so complicated. I can still laugh at a lot of the jokes in Trading Places and just ignore the offensive ones, but I know I'm in a privileged position to be able to do that. And of course not everybody wants to do that. So back to that book review. It's just as problematic as the interview he gives about it. It's for the journal Literary Review. The book tells the story of the recent Israeli siege of Beirut. But in his review, Dahl goes beyond the contents of the book. He takes the opportunity to write a passionate denunciation of the entire Israeli Palestinian conflict, which he broadens into an attack on Israel and Jewish people everywhere. And yes, this has a ton of contemporary relevance. The same stuff is happening all over again today. Here's the beginning of Dahl's book review.

Roald Dahl (quoted) (7:44)

In June 1941, I happen to be in, of all places, Palestine, flying with the RAF against the bushy French and the Nazis. Hitler happened to be in Germany and the gas chambers were being built and the mass slaughter of the Jews was beginning. Our hearts bled for the Jewish men, women and children, and we hated the Germans.

Aaron Tracy (8:04)

Okay, so far, Dahl is throwing in some of his own biography to relate to the contents of the book. And then he continues.

Roald Dahl (quoted) (8:12)

Exactly 41 years later, in June 1982, the Israeli forces were streaming northwards out of what used to be Palestine into Lebanon, and the mass slaughter of the inhabitants began. Our hearts bled for the Lebanese and Palestinian men, women and children, and we all started hating the Israelis.

Aaron Tracy (8:30)

Okay, so he's connecting what he saw as a pilot in the war with what he sees now. But then he ramps up to this, referring to the Jewish people.

Roald Dahl (quoted) (8:39)

Never before in the history of man has a race of people switched so rapidly from being much pitted victims to barbarous murderers. Never before has a race of people generated so much sympathy around the world and then, in the space of a lifetime, succeeded in turning that sympathy into hatred and revulsion. It is as though a group of much loved nuns in charge of an orphanage had suddenly turned around and started murdering all the children.

Aaron Tracy (9:08)

He continues, it is like the good

Roald Dahl (quoted) (9:10)

old Hitler and Himmler times all over again.

Aaron Tracy (9:15)

Wow, there's a lot there. Like calling a whole race of people, namely the Jews, barbarous murderers because he opposes the actions of a handful of people in the Israeli government. Honestly, I'm just not enough of an expert in these issues to do this conversation justice, so I want to bring in someone who is. Yair Rosenberg has dedicated his professional life to studying and thinking about this stuff in a really brilliant way. Yair is a writer for the Atlantic. He's also written for the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, you name it. He speaks around the world on the topic of anti Semitism, and I love this. He's credited with coining the sarcastic Internet term Goebbels gap, which is the amount of time between a negative event transpiring in the world and someone finding a way to blame it on the Jews. I'm going to ask Yair to help provide context for various things, dahl said.

Ryan Seacrest (10:04)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's stock up savings time now through March 31st. Bring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Oreo, Haagen, Dazs, Charmin, Tide, Spark, Sparkling Ice, Reese's and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for terms and conditions.

Public Investing Representative (10:33)

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc, SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.

Redfin Representative (11:37)

It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script with listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it. That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise. And Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning.

Bethenny Frankel (12:33)

That's redfin.com this is Bethany Frankel from Just Be with Bethenny Frankel. Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition. That is why Biggie and Smalls eat eat. Just food for dogs. Real 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. And yes, I do see the difference. Better digestion, healthier skin, more energy, dogs that feel better. My babies, if you've been on the fence about switching, stop overthinking it. What's more important than your furry babies and their health? Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code needed. Just try it.

Aaron Tracy (13:14)

First up, I ask Yair why blaming all Jews for the actions of the Israeli leadership is thought to be anti Semitic.

Yair Rosenberg (13:21)

Yeah, so there's a general human tendency here and a particular anti Jewish one. Generally speaking, a lot of prejudice takes the form of people looking at a minority group and saying anybody in this minority community that does anything or says anything reflects on the entire group and every person in it. Such that if you're a member of a minority, you're collectively culpable for what anyone else in that minority may say or do anywhere, no matter where they are and no matter your connection or lack thereof to those people. And that's not unique to Jews, right? That's, that's textbook racism, textbook bigotry. Think the spike in anti Muslim hate crimes after 9 11, which was people taking out anger at a specific group of fundamentalist terrorists on everyday Americans who happen to have some identifying characteristic that they associated with them. And so that is the general human tendency towards prejudice. That's, you know, an old, old thing that many of us have experienced or seen. And then there's this specifically Jewish version of it where you see people saying that, yeah, all Jews are to blame for anything else any other Jew did in my perception. But you have to think of Rogue Doll in this particular context. He was raised on a continent that for centuries persecuted, abused, expelled and murdered Jews over allegations of what other Jews thousands of miles away did in the Middle east, namely they allegedly killed Jesus. And that was seen to justify centuries of anti Semitism on the European Continent. Roald Dahl grows up in that place. Right. That sort of way of thinking about Jews and, you know, is part of what paves the way for the Holocaust and the ideas of the Nazis spread. It's not particularly new. It does get secularized later on where the Jews in Europe and the United States and elsewhere get attacked over whatever Jews thousands of miles away in the Middle east may have done and that somebody is angry about. It's not exactly different. It's just the names change. And so in that way, Dahl is reflecting a general human tendency towards prejudice. And he's also reflecting a very age old story that people tell about Jews. And I think actually he's not particularly unique in this respect. As you can see, this is a very common way of thinking about minorities as mendacious monoliths. What is unique is us asking the question and saying, maybe we shouldn't do that. We're the exception. He's actually the rule.

Aaron Tracy (15:26)

Interesting. And I mean, we see this a lot today. Obviously the what's going on in Israel and Gaza right now is, you know, on the front page every day. And people are doing it again. People are blaming Jews in America, Jews all over the world, with what the Israeli government is doing right now to the Palestinians.

Yair Rosenberg (15:43)

Yeah, it's a very similar dynamic. If Rodal was alive today, he would be doing the same thing. He'd be blurring these lines between actions committed by an Israeli government at a specific place in time for specific people with all Jews around the world, rather than treating everybody as individuals and judging them based on those characteristics. It's disheartening and obviously it's wrong, but it's just something that's always been with us as human beings. It's a sort of a shortcut we use for thinking about minority groups that we don't know well, rather than trying to get to know them and to understand them in their complexity and diversity. We often try to reduce them to stereotypes and in some cases that means negative stereotypes or the worst thing that anyone has ever said or done in that group. There is a parallel to this because it's a very old thing. Ever since Israel has existed, there have been people who have been angry about this or that Israeli policy that have taken that out on proximate Jews. And before Israel existed, whatever Jews in the Middle east did was also taken out on, you know, any nearby or proximate Jews, no matter what connection they had to what happened in that place.

Aaron Tracy (16:35)

Dahl also makes reference, to quote those powerful American Jewish bankers. And he asserts that the United States government is, quote, utterly dominated by the great Jewish financial institutions over there. Can you talk a little bit about those anti Semitic tropes?

Yair Rosenberg (16:51)

Sure. There are two kinds of antisemitism, generally speaking. One is the personal prejudice. This is the kind of bigotry that most of us are familiar with, which is, I don't like that person because they're different. They're too Jewish, they're too Muslim, they're too black. And that's a social prejudice. And it's very harmful to the people targeted by it. There's also a different kind of anti Semitism that's the conspiratorial expression of anti Semitism. And this one posits the Jews are a sinister string pulling cabal that is behind all the world's social and economic problems. It's a theory about how the entire world works and it all traces back to Jews. And if you see something going wrong, there's definitely a Jew behind it, right? You perceive that there's an invisible hand. It belongs to an invisible Jew. And so Rodal here is expressing that he did it at my understanding, as in other contexts as well, not just saying Jews controlled the banks, not just saying they controlled the government. He also said they controlled the media. You know, Jews are 0.2% of the human population, right? If you were to think about this logically, even if they punched 100% above their weight, they would have 0.4% of the power. It's just not how the world actually works. In reality, of course, Jews have been persecuted and exterminated for much of their existence because they're a tiny group that doesn't really have this kind of power or influence. And Jews themselves are extremely diverse and fractious and disagree with each other. And there are many different sects and different beliefs and they all argue with each other. And anyone who's ever spent time in a Jewish community or with Jews or around a Shabbat or Passover table knows, right, that Jews can't set the thermostat, let alone how to, you know, I don't know, control Western civilization. But again, this is sort of a very long standing, stereotypical way of thinking about Jews and, you know, dollars reflecting it. In the case of, you know, Jewish bankers and others controlling the government, you might Wonder, how did 2 out of every 3 European Jews get killed in the Holocaust? If this incredible Jewish conspiracy was there running the show, it seems extremely bad at its job. And similarly speaking, there's so many. When the State of Israel was founded in 1940, 8, America put it under an arms embargo, which is a very strange thing to do if the Jews control the government. There's a lot of examples of this in history. Lots of Jewish activists did lobby Franklin Delano Roosevelt to try to bomb the railway tracks to Auschwitz, the death camp where so many Jews were being killed. And he didn't do it. Lots of Jewish activists tried to get the United States and other countries to lift their immigrant quotas to allow more Jewish refugees to flee the Holocaust. They didn't do it. There are so many examples of this, it's kind of perverse. The anti Semitic worldview is kind of an inversion of the reality. It posits that this tiny group of Jews determines the fate of all the non Jews, when in fact, logically speaking, right. The large non Jewish majority of the world decides what the world's gonna be like for a lot of different minorities, not just Jews.

Aaron Tracy (19:22)

Here's another one, and this is one I'm certainly less familiar with than the other tropes. Talking about Jewish victims of the Holocaust, Dahl said, quote, if you and I were in a line moving towards what we knew were gas chambers, I'd rather have a go at taking one of the guards with me. But they, meaning the Jews, were always submissive. What is that about?

Yair Rosenberg (19:42)

So this is more complicated than simply some sort of anti Semitic idea. It's actually a critique that many people have leveled against Jewish victims of the Holocaust, which is a hardest thing to do, to critique victims of the Holocaust, but it's been done. And some of those people who leveled that critique, ironically, were people that Dahl hated. Scientists, some Zionists said that the problem of the Jews of Europe is that they didn't defend themselves and that they weren't strong enough. And so that they need a state and an army so that things like, like this can never happen again. And the irony is that rogue Dahl is criticizing these Jewish victims of the Holocaust in the same way as some of the founders of the state of Israel criticized their Jewish forebears. And yet he doesn't support anything that Israel does militarily. And Dahl says that Jews were too weak and pathetic and they went like lambs to their slaughter and they didn't fight back. But then when Jews go along and say, you know what? We're going to found a state and have an army, and then we're going to fight back when we perceive ourselves to be threatened, well, then he says they're incredibly evil, bloodthirsty and militaristic. Heads road doll wins. Tails the Jews lose. And this is a very common way that bigots relate to minorities they don't like. Basically, there's nothing they can do that is right. And they're attacked for absolutely contradictory things. No matter what they do and no matter how they change, they're always subject to the same prejudice. Because the word prejudice comes from prejudging. You've already prejudged the community and then you come up and backfill the justifications afterwards.

Aaron Tracy (20:58)

To go back to this specific instance for just a second, just because it's really something I don't know about. There's an idea among people that the Jew Jews during the Holocaust should have wrestled their Nazi guards to the ground more. They should have gotten together and wrestled them. What is.

Yair Rosenberg (21:14)

Yeah, no, So I think so. Exactly. So this is good because you give me a chance to say something I should have said at the outset, which is, I think it's an unfair critique. Whether leveled by Zionists or leveled by Rodal the anti Zionist. I think the idea that the Jews could have somehow overturned or fought back in any really effective capacity against this Nazi empire is not an. A reasonable critique. That being said, the other thing to note is that plenty of Jews did. The critique is wrong because plenty of Jews did attempt to fight back. The reason we know it wouldn't work is because they failed or they weren't successful in saving so many of the Jews. You have the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, perhaps the most famous example of resistance to the Nazis, but it did ultimately fail. You similarly had plenty of Jews who joined the various resistance movements in different European countries against the Nazis and helped fight back and also helped spirit Jews and others away to safety. All of these things actually did happen and they did make a difference, but they weren't the same thing as defeating the Nazis. It wasn't something that the Jews, in their tiny numerical rounding error in the human population ever could have possibly done. So it's good that you've circled back because I do think you actually kind of at the foreground by saying, I think personally right, the critique is wrong, it's historically wrong, and it's morally inadequate. But at the same time, it is very revealing about Dahl that he can make this critique and then at the same time attack Jews for being, you know, so pathetic and so inept and so weak. And then when they act strong and they're militaristic, then they're evil for being bloodthirsty and villainous. Did he ever spell out what he actually thinks Jews were allowed to do? And what they should be or, you know, is it. No matter what they do, they can never please Roald Dahl.

Aaron Tracy (22:43)

That was Yair Rosenberg, staff writer at the Atlantic and author of the newsletter Deep Shtetl. I also want to mention that while Dahl died without apologizing for his anti Semitic comments, years after his death, the Dahl family did issue a formal apology. It was around the same time that Netflix purchased his whole catalog. Here's the statement in its entirety, which you can also see@roalddahl.com apology the Dahl family and the Roald Dahl Story Company deeply apologized for the lasting and understandable hurt caused by Roald Dahl's anti Semitic statements. Those prejudiced remarks are incomprehensible to us and stand in marked contrast to the man we knew and to the values at the heart of Roald Dahl's stories, which have positively impacted young people for generations. We hope that just as he did at his best, at his absolute worst, Roald Dahl can help remind us of the lasting impact of words. So what are we supposed to do about this? Do we accept that apology from his family? Do we chalk it all up to it being a different era? Or do we stop reading Dahl, stop giving his books to our children? One thing that makes it especially complicated for me is that Dahl's personal prejudices didn't really make it into his books. As far as I can tell. Some critics say they see anti Semitic tropes in the Witches. It's possible, but I don't know if I agree. And if we can't definitively locate those problematic views in his writing and he's no longer profiting off the sales of his books, does it still make sense to stop reading them? I'm fascinated by this question. I'm someone who constantly does the mental gymnastics that's required of all of us when we consume art from previous generations. I'll just say it outright. Some of my favorite writers and favorite filmmakers have done awful things. I don't want to have them over for dinner, but I still read the novels, still worship the movies. And of course, it's not always even previous generations. The writer Alice Munro, who died not long ago, was revealed to have stayed with her second husband after learning that he'd sexually abused her daughter with Roald Dahl. I think the issue is even more complicated by the fact that we encourage our kids to consume him. I would never allow a babysitter with clear, open prejudices to be around my kids in real life. Why should authors and filmmakers be any different? Maybe because we think we have More control over how they're presented to the kids. Like, we can offer a warning and we know what's in there and what's not in there. We know nothing crazy is going to be set off the cuff the way it might be if a bigoted old grandmother or somebody was left alone with them. Also, forcibly taking away books and movies feels like a slippery slope. It feels a little bit like censorship, and I hate the idea of that. I firmly believe that experiencing art is essential to being human and that art has the capacity to do great things, even if it's created by crappy people. And I'm absolutely including children's books in that definition of art. All kinds of art can affect positive change, often even more than protest movements or marches or elections can. Just look at how Americans started becoming more tolerant of gay families thanks to a silly network sitcom, Will and Grace. For your information, Will Walter was the

Roxane Gay (25:46)

love of my life.

Aaron Tracy (25:47)

You said that about each Backstreet Boy

Yair Rosenberg (25:49)

at one time or another.

Aaron Tracy (25:51)

I also totally buy the argument that America was only able to finally elect a black president because they saw a prosperous, lovable, familiar Black family on TV every week in the 1980s. Namely the Cosbys. Hey, how's it going?

Bethenny Frankel (26:06)

Great, Vanessa. Rudy gave us some fascinating stuff. Yeah, they can be pretty fascinating at times.

Yair Rosenberg (26:11)

We're on our way to Theo's room now.

Aaron Tracy (26:13)

Are you going inside? Yeah.

Yair Rosenberg (26:17)

Well, I would just like to say that the condition of certain rooms in this house do not necessarily reflect the views of management. Thank you.

Aaron Tracy (26:26)

And yes, the idea that Cosby is responsible for anything good at this point is hard to believe. But of course, there are tons of other examples of popular art creating positive change in the world. I was commissioned by A and E a few years ago to write a four part limited TV series about how Breakfast at Tiffany's jumpstarted the feminist movement and Tiffany's managed that really positive outcome. While also containing one of cinema's most egregious examples of anti Asian stereotyping, namely Mickey Rooney's performance as Holly's upstairs neighbor. The racism in Tiffany's is so egregious that it feels like you can use it as a teaching moment if you watch it with your kids. The much scarier thing to me is when the bigotry is more subtle. Which brings us back to Dahl. I can't help thinking about a very scary, maybe very pertinent metaphor suggested by Dahl himself. In maybe his greatest book in the bfg, he writes that his hero has the ability to influence children's thoughts by delivering specific dreams to them while they sleep. In the story, it's an act of kindness by a sweet, loving creature. But what if the guy delivering those dreams and influencing children's thoughts wasn't so sweet and wasn't so loving? What then? To get a better understanding of this really important issue, I want to talk to a few people, people who are really thoughtful about this stuff.

Roxane Gay (27:43)

I did read him growing up and I enjoyed his books.

Aaron Tracy (27:48)

That's the voice of the great Roxane Gay. She's a best selling writer and critic. She's written novels, short stories, and even a Marvel comic. Your smartest, most engaged friend has definitely forwarded you one of her essays at some point. I'm very excited to talk to Roxanne about all of this. She has really strong, clear feelings on the subject.

Ryan Seacrest (28:07)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's Stock Up Savings time now through March 31st. Bring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn uneligible items from Activia, General Mills, Nature Valley, A and W, Monster Energy, Coffee Mate and Pete's Coffee. Then click the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for terms and conditions.

Public Investing Representative (28:38)

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available@public.com disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.

Redfin Representative (29:42)

It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script. With listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it, that's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning.

Bethenny Frankel (30:38)

That's redfin.com this is Bethany Frankel from Just Be with Bethenny Frankel. Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition. That is why Biggie and Smalls eat just food for dogs. Real 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. And yes, I do see the difference. Better digestion, healthier skin, more energy, dogs that feel better. My babies. If you've been on the fence about switching, stop overthinking it. What's more important than your furry babies and their health? Go to justfood4dogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code needed. Just try it.

Aaron Tracy (31:20)

What I want to talk to you about is, you know, Dahl also said some very anti Semitic things and I struggle with whether or not I can read his work. And sort of even more importantly for me, I guess, can I give his books to my little kids to read? Which leads to kind of a larger question about whether we can ever separate an artist's private beliefs from their public art. So I think you've written really wisely about this topic and I was hoping you could just talk a little bit about your own experiences grappling with that question.

Roxane Gay (31:49)

Yes. I mean, it's a question I think about quite a lot and certainly as a feminist, it's a question I'm asked about a lot. And I for one don't believe you can separate the art from the artist, nor do I think you should. I think that we are who we are and that influences the art that we put into the world in some way. Now, Roald Dahl wrote some amazing books like James and the Giant Peach, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. He's a consummate storyteller. And certainly generations of children have fallen in love with his work. So the legacy is there, but there's also the legacy of virulent antisemitism. And the reality is that there are plenty of children's authors out there who have written very good books who also are not anti Semites. And so when people sort of wring their hands about this, I get a little frustrated because this is not the only game in town. And what really people want is like a morality hall pass because, oh, he's a genius. Like, so are lots of other people. And so, like, read what you want, truly enjoy what you want, but accept responsibility for the fact that you are willing to overlook some truly bad behavior for your enjoyment or for someone else's enjoyment.

Aaron Tracy (33:08)

That makes a lot of sense. When Nate Parker's Birth of a Nation was gonna be released in 2016, you wrote a really great piece for the New York Times about just what we're talking about. Not being able to separate past accusations against Parker for sexual assault from his movie. Reading the piece, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, but it felt a little bit like one of the things that troubled you most about that situation was how he handled it. He sort of made the apology all about himself. With Roald Dahl, it's tricky, right, because he's not around to defend himself anymore or apologize for that matter. And I'm not saying he would apologize. In fact, he probably wouldn't. But who knows? Does that play in for you in terms of long dead artists? Like, do you have trouble reading Edgar Allen Poe knowing that he married his 13 year old cousin, or T.S. eliot or Norman Mailer, or more recently, Alice Munro? What does it do for you when it's sort of someone who is not around to defend themselves or not defend themselves?

Roxane Gay (33:58)

I mean, that doesn't even factor for me. I think that it would be great if these people could apologize, but I doubt that most of them would be apologetic because most of them would not think that they had done anything wrong or they would be like, yeah, I said it and I believe it and said what? It just doesn't even factor in. I have no problem not reading these people. I just don't. Because there's so much amazing literature out there. And I know, for example, a lot of people feel a true sense of loss over Alice Munro, but every time I think about, oh, you know her incredible short stories. I have far more empathy for her daughter, who she was willing to sacrifice because of her own weakness. I'm a human being. I can understand sort of, that she, you know, why she made that choice of choosing her husband, despite the harm that he was doing to her child. But it's not okay. And I'm not speaking for anyone else. I'm only making these decisions for me. And, you know, a lot of times people really overestimate the power of writers in terms of, like, oh, what do you mean? I can't enjoy this thing I want to enjoy. Like, do what you want, but what you want is for me to say it's fine. And I can't say that because I don't think it is. But also, who cares what I think? What do you think? So I don't struggle with these things in that I just tend to value the dignity and the lives of these people's victims far more than the people who have made such egregious mistakes themselves. And the counter argument often is that we're all human and we all make mistakes. And that is absolutely true. We are all flawed. And I include myself in that. But I also know that I'm never going to be an anti Semite. I'm never going to be transphobic. I know who I am. There are some mistakes most of us don't make. I'm never going to commit sexual violence. And so I think that we have to also remember that these are things that are matter of scale and that we can't compare our normal human foibles and flaws with people who are criminals and bigots.

Aaron Tracy (36:08)

I think that makes a ton of sense. When I buy a Mel Gibson movie or rent a Roman Polanski movie or buy a Kanye west song, I feel like I'm giving them money.

Roxane Gay (36:17)

Right?

Aaron Tracy (36:18)

And that bothers me. It sounds like for you, it's not as much about whether or not we're sort of enriching them or helping them. It's more just, you have trouble enjoying it, Right? Is that right?

Roxane Gay (36:29)

I have trouble looking past, you know, like, for example, I used to really enjoy Kanye West's music before we found out who Kanye west really is. I just can't enjoy it anymore because every time I start to be like, oh, yes, listen to that beat drop. Because he is brilliant. And I acknowledge that he's also truly a horrible person. So I just can't. And that's just the way I'm made up. I don't even think about the enrichment thing. I Think people really overvalue their dollar. Like Kanye. Rich is already wealthy. Buy his music, don't buy his music. It's not really changing his bottom line. I mean, I don't think we should consume his music. I don't think we should enrich him or fatten his coffers. But I do think that for me, it's just something I can't do. And I don't. Not even can't. Of course I could. I don't want to. I can no longer enjoy the Cosby Show. And I loved that show. I loved it because we weren't really allowed to watch TV growing up, and that was one of two things we were allowed to watch. It was that and Little House on the Prairie. You know, it's sad, and I definitely lament, you know, the loss.

Aaron Tracy (37:39)

Do you think a writer's personal views always. Or their prejudices or their outlooks or their viewpoints always find a way into the work? And if they don't, does that change the calculus at all?

Roxane Gay (37:51)

I don't think that a writer's views always infuse themselves into the work. I do think that there are some writers and other artists who are very capable of hiding their true selves, but it's rare. It's rare. I do actually think that's what makes Road Dahl such a tough one, for the most part. You really would not know his beliefs if you didn't know about them. If you didn't go and, like, look up information about the artist. Certainly that's. It's not something I ever knew about until recently, like, in the past decade. It's challenging. And I think that what a lot of people need to believe is that genius and genius art matters more than the crimes of the genius artist and the toxic beliefs of the genius artist. We hear that quite a lot with Woody Allen, with Roman Polanski, especially with, like, a whole slew of anti Semites. And I firmly understand that for some people, that is just the case. And it is. You know, I just disagree. I think that you can't separate it now when people just say, like, yes, he's an anti Semite and he made amazing work, that's more honest that you acknowledge it. And you're going to consume the work regardless because you feel like it offers more than the damage done by whatever the toxicity or the crime is. And I think that more people believe that than not, unfortunately. But I'm sure you're talking to Claire Dederer.

Aaron Tracy (39:27)

Yeah, we are, actually.

Roxane Gay (39:28)

Yeah. She wrote an amazing book about this that I thought was really, really well done where she grapples with these questions. And when people are at least willing to grapple with the questions, I find that more interesting than actually sitting around worrying about these horrible people. Because again, that's more honest that yes, some people are ambivalent about this, or some people really struggle. Some people don't know how to sacrifice these works of for the sake of the greater good. And you know, I do think it's at least important to have those conversations and a book like Monsters, which Claire Deterer wrote, I think are interesting entrance into the dialogue about this.

Aaron Tracy (40:10)

A huge thanks to Roxanne and I totally agree with what she said at the end there about who to speak to next. First thing, if you wouldn't mind, introduce yourself. I'm Claire Deterer.

Yair Rosenberg (40:21)

I'm the author of A Fan's Dilemma.

Aaron Tracy (40:25)

Hear my conversation with Claire in our next episode. She feels really differently than Roxanne about all this. We'll also get into the nitty gritty of an explosive controversy regarding Dahl's work 32 years after his death that seemed to get the entire world talking about him again. The Secret World of Roald Dahl is produced by Imagine Audio and Parallax Studios for iHeart Podcasts. Created and written by me, Aaron Tracy Produced by Matt Schrader post production by Wind Hill Studios with editing, scoring and sound design by Mark Henry Phillips editing by Ryan Seaton music by APM Executive producers Nathan Clokey, Kara Welker, Brian Grazer, Ron Howard and Aaron Tracy Additional voice performances and recreation by Mark Henry Phillips and 11 Labs. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to rate and review the Secret World of Roald Dahl on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Copyright 2026 Imagine Entertainment, iHeartMedia and Parallax.

Ryan Seacrest (41:37)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's Stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times a point. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Oreo, Haagen, Dazs, Charmin, Tide, Sparkling Ice, Reese's and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for terms and conditions.

Public Investing Representative (42:06)

This episode is brought to you by Bobcat. They started the compact equipment industry through grit, determination and a whole lot of think we can't do that.

Yair Rosenberg (42:15)

Watch us they set standards, broke records,

Public Investing Representative (42:19)

empowered people to build bigger and higher, to dig deeper, to make the impossible possible.

Yair Rosenberg (42:24)

We've all been there with doubters telling us what we can't do.

Public Investing Representative (42:28)

Who cares what they think?

Aaron Tracy (42:29)

We don't need their permission or forgiveness.

Yair Rosenberg (42:32)

We just get things done. So go ahead and doubt me, judge me, challenge me.

Aaron Tracy (42:37)

But when the time comes, watch me.

Redfin Representative (42:40)

Bobcat, you're listening to a podcast, so you're doing something else too. Like maybe scrolling home listings on Redfin. Saving places you like without thinking you'll get them. Because that's what house hunting has become. But Redfin isn't built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents, which means when you find a place you love, you've got a real shot at getting it. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get started@redfin.com own the dream.

Bethenny Frankel (43:19)

This is Bethany Frankel from Just Be with Bethany Frankel. Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition. That is why Biggie and Smalls eat just food for dogs. Real 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. And yes, I do see the difference. I better digestion, healthier skin, more energy. Dogs that feel better. My babies. If you've been on the fence about switching, stop overthinking it. What's more important than your furry babies and their health? Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code needed. Just try it.