Shooting the Shit About Agent Financial Details, Imprint Mergers and Risks of a Top Heavy Industry

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Episode: Shooting the Shit About Agent Financial Details, Imprint Mergers and Risks of a Top Heavy Industry
Date: June 8, 2026
Hosts: Carly Watters & CeCe Lyra

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Episode Overview

This episode offers a candid, behind-the-scenes look at the economic and professional realities of being a literary agent in today’s publishing industry. Carly and CeCe discuss the changing job scope for agents, the increasing demands around technology (like AI and fact checking in nonfiction), and what these pressures mean for authors and industry professionals. The pair also answer listener questions about author platform-building, statistics around books “dying on sub,” and how agents navigate submission rejections. Expect frank insights, a few agent rants, and actionable advice for emerging writers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolving Role of Literary Agents

Timestamps: 03:29–12:08

• Flexible Job Description: Agents wear many hats, from career manager to event producer to client cheerleader. As Carly reflected on supporting her author clients at events, she noted:

  "I'm like everything from stage mom to producer of the event, to making sure the books are getting signed and the lines are moved." (08:18, Carly)

• Economic Realities & Scope Creep: CeCe explains that as publishing’s economic structures shift (especially in an oligopsony with few buyers and many sellers), the burdens on agents are expanding:

  "In an industry like that, it's very common for the burden to be passed on to the creators, meaning the authors. And since we are author advocates... a lot of it ends up falling into agents." (10:26, CeCe)

• Boundaries Are Crucial: Both emphasize the need for boundaries, as agenting is an “always-on” job:

  "We're always working, we're always on. It's not really a job where you're ever off." (12:34, Carly)

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2. The Impact of Tech and AI on Agents

Timestamps: 12:34–18:53

• New Skill Sets: Agents now need to understand AI, fact checking, copyright law, and more—far beyond their original training.

  "Now I have to be like an expert in copyright law. I have to be an expert in, you know, emerging tech... I just feel like the things that are being put on our shoulders just never ends." (14:12, Carly)

• Nonfiction & Fact Checking: Publishers often don't pay for fact checking, so the onus falls on authors and agents:

  "Anything that costs money, publishing is allergic to." (16:12, quoting a fellow agent from NY Mag)

• AI in Submissions: There’s a growing concern about writers using AI for nonfiction proposals:

  “If I'm getting you a six-figure book advance, I don't want you putting it into ChatGPT. Go to the f***ing library.” (13:41, quoting another agent)

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3. Upskilling Versus Core Skills

Timestamps: 18:56–20:16

• Deal Making Is Core: The “core” agent skill remains deal negotiation and contract handling; everything else—like editorial support, social media, event planning—is "upskilling."

  "Our core job is selling... everything else... is an upskill, in my opinion." (19:33, Carly)

• Parallel to Entertainment: Unlike entertainment, where agents and managers are separate, literary agents must also “project manage” and coach their clients.

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4. Author Platform, Branding & Social Media

Timestamps: 20:19–27:05

• Misunderstanding Marketing/PR: Many writers conflate publicity (media coverage) with marketing (social media, platform)—they’re different jobs.
• Key Resource Highlighted:
  Substack: “How to Market a Book You Haven’t Written Yet” by @archetype
  Carly and CeCe dissect practical advice for pre-published authors:
  • Don’t stress about “marketing a book that doesn’t exist.”
  • Focus instead on four “content pillars”:
    1. Taste: Share authentic book recommendations—don't disparage other authors/books.
    2. Process: Show your writing journey.
    3. Reading Life: Let people follow what you love to read.
    4. Niche Obsessions: Share the unique things you’re excited about.
  • On picking your lane: “Don’t be an author without a book. Be the reader friend who happens to also be an author.” (22:55, paraphrasing Substack)

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5. Industry Trends: Submission Volume & The Need for Strong Openings

Timestamps: 00:33–03:20, 40:08–42:55

• Submissions Are Up: Editors and agents are receiving record numbers of submissions.
• Irresistible Openings Are Non-Negotiable:

  "It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible... No agent, no acquiring editor, is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better." (00:53, CeCe)

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6. Listener Q&A Section

Timestamps: 27:19–37:44

a) Why Aren’t There Stats on Books “Dying on Sub”?

• There’s no universal database or tracking of unsold submissions.
• Even if there were, statistics mean little on an individual level ("you either have a 100 or a zero" — 28:57, CeCe).
• Agent “gut feel” is often more relevant, based on responses and timelines.

b) Do Agents Read the Tea Leaves on Submissions?

• Agents do notice “common threads” in rejections and may adjust strategies accordingly.
• Sometimes a project’s risk/reward calculation is known up front (e.g., a “too dark” ending), and they prepare authors for possible hard sells.

  "It's your job to know where you stand in the high risk or not spectrum of things." (37:44, CeCe)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Boundaries and Work-Life:
  "If we don't have boundaries... we're always working, we're always on." (12:34, Carly)

• On AI & Fact-Checking:
  “If I'm getting you a six-figure book advance, I don't want you putting it into ChatGPT. Go to the f***ing library.” (13:41, quoting another agent)

• On Platform and Taste:
  "The leap from 'I trust your taste in books' to 'I trust the book you wrote' is much smaller." (24:02, quoting Substack via CeCe)

• On Book Openings:
  "No agent, no acquiring editor, is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible." (00:56, CeCe)

• On the Agent’s Core Job:
  "Our core job is selling. It's the deal making. Like you said, literally everything else... is an upskill, in my opinion." (19:33, Carly)

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Memorable and Humorous Moments

• On Packing Styles: (06:47–07:03) CeCe and Carly riff humorously on the differences between “carry-on” and “checked bag” personalities, proving agents are normal people too.

• On Industry “Gossip”: Carly mentions jokingly that one day they’ll do a beauty routine substack or podcast spinoff—reminding listeners not all life is bookish.

• On Being Organized: Closing banter about being disorganized when Bianca isn’t around (38:14–38:30).

  "The kids are playing. You let the kids loose." (38:25, CeCe)

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Practical Takeaways for Writers

• You must have a killer beginning. No one will “wait for it to get good.”
• Beware of using AI for nonfiction research or writing; publishers and agents are watching.
• Fact-checking is your responsibility as a nonfiction author—build this into your budget/plan.
• Don’t stress-marketing a book you haven’t written. Build your platform around your authentic self and your taste instead.
• Don’t expect clear stats about the fate of all submissions—publishing is a personalized, opaque process.

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:33 – CeCe’s remarks on increasing submission volume
• 04:17 – CeCe & Carly on travel, packing, and event logistics
• 08:05 – Organizational “scope creep” in agenting
• 12:34 – Boundaries & always-on mentality
• 13:41 – Memorable AI quote about ChatGPT misuse
• 15:59 – Roles in fact checking and the economics of responsibility
• 20:19 – Reader question on platform-building and marketing
• 22:21 – Dissecting “How to Market a Book You Haven’t Written Yet”
• 27:19 – Segment: Listener Q&A (debuts dying on sub, agent gut instinct)
• 34:39 – Example: What happens when a book is “risky” on sub

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Tone & Style

The episode is candid, self-deprecating, and refreshingly honest. Both hosts blend frankness with humor and warmth, making the realities of agenting and publishing accessible without sugarcoating the challenges.

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For emerging writers and insiders, this episode is a masterclass on the pressures facing literary agents today, the business realities of publishing, and the importance of clear-eyed strategy—whether you’re writing, agenting, or dreaming big.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

The last beta reader matchup of the summer has been extended thanks to gremlins in the system. Instead of the matchup happening on 2nd June, it will now be extended to 9th June with matchup emails going out that day. If you haven't registered yet and would like to take advantage of this extension, you have until midnight Eastern Time on the 8th of June, please go to theshitaboutwriting.com look for the beta Reader Match up tab, click and you can find all the details and register there.

[Cece Lira]

What's up everyone? This is cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled. And I wasn't surprised at all because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chance chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with hooks and of course, in my submissions inbox. But at the same time, I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale, and it's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor, is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean. It's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible, to make agents crave it, to make agents want to read more. That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course, Starting it right how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists, that you can use to ensure that your story's beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the best one, the best place to start, and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things. When it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory and what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline.

Most of all, I'm going to show

you how to make reader readers. Want to turn to chapter two? Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepared to take lots of notes. We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques.

Plus a super fun surprise that I

can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.

[Carly Waters]

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with literary agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. Hi, Cece, how are you doing today?

[Cece Lira]

I'm well. It's been a fun week. How about you?

[Carly Waters]

It's been good. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see that I am not in my office. I'm in a hotel room. I'm in Toronto. I was here for an author event. So we're recording on the fly. I brought my microphone with me and it's not working. So we're going through my headphones today. We're just flying by the seat of our pants over here.

[Cece Lira]

So the flight from Ottawa to Toronto is super short. Do you, do you pack, carry on or do you check luggage?

[Carly Waters]

Great question. It would always depend on how long I'm going for. Generally. Yeah, just one night. So I did carry on. The issue is it's a very small plane and so, yeah, you know, it's very hard to like fit, you know, a quote unquote, like normal size carry on. So, yeah, I just kind of did a duffel bag and yeah, and here I am. So I'm traveling light for. For me. Good for you.

[Cece Lira]

I'm going to Aspen in. For summer words for the. The conference. Actually it's technically Snowmass and not Aspen, but whatever. So I'm going to the conference, right, like the conference organized by Adrian Berdor later this month. And there's no direct flights, so you have to go to Denver and then go to Aspen, the Aspen airport and the connection. My time in Denver is very short. It is very, very short. I don't remember right now, but I'm pretty sure it's like less than an hour and I'm like, I'm a checked bag girl all day. Like, I cannot handle carry on. I need a lot of things. I like to pack my moisturizer. I don't like travel size toiletries. It's just, you know, I like to have options. I'm sure there's a deeper psychological thing going on where I need to have a feeling of plenty, to feel safe, whatever, it doesn't matter. But I'm thinking I might try to do carry on because I don't want my luggage for you, but only because I'm pretty sure the luggage is not gonna make it on time. Like if the, if the window's so short, I know sometimes they make it, but like if the plane is even a little delayed. And planes are often delayed. Cause in Hawaii that happened like I did. So I went to, to Denver and then I flew from Denver to Kauai. And because my flight was delayed arriving in Denver, I had to run, run to the gate, run to the Denver Kauai gate. And when I got there, one of my suitcases had made it, but the other one had not. Yes, I checked two. So I'm thinking I don't want to go through that again. So there's like two options right now. Either I'll do carry on and just like be a big girl, get over it, or then option number two is going to be I'll do a carry on situation with like one outfit for the day and then we'll also check bag because like the bag will arrive eventually. Hopefully. I don't know. So Wendy at my agency, at Wendy Sherman, she is very good with carry on and she's very stylish. So it is possible to be stylish and pack a carry on. She's like the first person I've met who can do both. Most of the people who tell me they can do a carry on, I look at them and I go, it doesn't seem like you have a lot of shoes, you know, like, or you

[Carly Waters]

don't care about your big size beauty products. You know, that you spend money on that you want.

[Cece Lira]

I'm not convinced. You're like packing a blow dry. I'm just not convinced. Which is fine. Like, I'm admirable even. But like, we are probably just very different people. Like, look at the size of my moisturizer.

[Carly Waters]

I know.

[Cece Lira]

Big moisturizer.

[Carly Waters]

I know this isn't a beauty podcast. And we always say, one of these days we'll Drop the beauty routine, if anybody cares. Maybe that will be our next substack. Substack Live. We'll, we'll, we'll get into that. But yeah, so book stuff. So, yeah, so I'm in Toronto for my author's event and it was so good. It was our panel between my clients Rachel and Harrison, who are siblings that co authored a book together about gender diverse athletes and gender inclusion in sport. And anyway, it was great. And so they were on a panel with Rachel Reed of heated rivalry and it was just so well done. It was just like one of those like life affirming events where you're just in person, great conversation, incredible audience. And yeah, anyway, it was lovely. And yeah, I was just kind of just fangirling for them and kind of helping out around the event. And anyway, it was just beautiful and wholesome. I just posted my Instagram carousel of all the wonderful images and yeah, it's just life affirming. People talking about books, coming out in person, standing in line, making friends in line and all the wonderful reasons we love books.

[Cece Lira]

Oh, I love that. Outdoor events are the best. Like, it's such, it's such a special moment. There's so, there's so many glimmers in this industry. So many moments that spark joy. This is like top of the list for sure. I'm so happy for you.

[Carly Waters]

I know, I know. So I had on my notes of things to obviously reflect on today and I like to kind of talk about what's going on the week. One of the things I was thinking about, I don't know if you ever, if you think about this, of things for us to chat about was this idea of like, what is our job description? Because I was at the event last night obviously fangirling for my clients, you know, getting the water on stage. Like, I'm like everything from stage stage mom to like producer of the event, to making sure the books are getting signed and the lines are moved. Like, I don't know, it's just so funny that I think our job takes on so many different textures like depending on what environment we're in. And I'm always just thinking about like, what is the core goal is obviously always like client care and making sure that they're having, having an amazing event. But yeah, I was just trying to think about, you know, if, if how you imagined this job is my question for you and has the scope of it over the course of you doing it.

[Cece Lira]

I, I imagined. So this is really a good question. I imagined it before I researched it. Really differently. I think I had this romantic version in my head of what we see in the movies, what we read about in books that feature publishing professionals, but also just a lot of my own assumptions. You know, oftentimes when we are surprised by something, if you're surprised by something, it's because you had a different expectation. And those expectations sometimes don't actually just come from media, sometimes it comes from your own imagination and you want to be true, you know, unconsciously so. But this was before I did research. After I did research, I had a very clear understanding because I do think there's a lot out there. This was pre our podcast, but there is, there was still even back then a lot that out there on the realities of the job. And I'm someone who, I don't typically do the whole it's going to be easier than, like, I don't believe that things are going to be easier than they actually are. If anything, I believe they're going to be harder or I'm pretty compatible, you know, like I guess correctly. So I was very clear eyed when I, when I joined this industry. I knew, I knew how hard it was going to be. I knew the, like what you're calling the scope creep, which I think is a great term. Like I knew, I knew that was real. And it comes down to the economic realities of it. You know, from a pure economics perspective, in an industry where you have very little competition because there are very few buyers, we use that term oligopsony all the time, which is essentially a way of saying very few buyers, lots and lots of sellers. You know, in an industry like that, it's very common for the burden to be passed on to the creators, meaning the authors. And since we are author advocates, since we are author representatives and our interests are 100% aligned, because we only make money when they make money, we win when they win. A lot of it ends up falling into agents. It's the economics of it, right? So I think things have changed for sure and they're always changing and probably they're just going to keep changing more than we're going to keep absorbing more and more and more. And one thing that you are like, I have to credit this to you, but you have since, since we first started working together, you've been very big on boundaries. Are the unsung heroes in this, in this industry, right? So you like, you have to decide like what you're going to do, what you're not going to do. There are things that, like it is our duty, like our duty as agents. And that's our fiduciary duty. That's, you know, our actual core job description. And that's not optional, of course, but then the extra stuff, like how editorial are you going to be? Like, how much are you going to help with whatever it is? And it's important to manage it in a way that is not just sustainable, but in a way that energizes you. Because the thing is, not all tasks are created equal. If I spend one hour going for a walk and drinking lemonade on a hot summer day, that hour recharges me. If I spend one hour doing something else that might drain me. So it's about knowing also what tasks drain you and recharge you.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, yeah. I was so I had breakfast with an agent colleague and I was talking about that idea of, yeah, like how we use our time. And we're so lucky to have what I call like a thinking job. When you're talking about, okay, going for a walk with a lemonade during quote, unquote work hours, to me, I'd be thinking about work the whole time. You know, I'd be problem solving things. And so, like, the work is in

[Cece Lira]

the best way, right?

[Carly Waters]

In the best way. Exactly.

[Cece Lira]

Yes, same.

[Carly Waters]

Yes, same. Yeah. So it never, it never really leaves us. And so. So I think the concept of boundaries is important because no matter what, we're always like taking the job home with us. We're taking the work home or editing at night or reading at night or thinking about something or looking at emails. And that's kind of just the nature of the job. And so if we don't have boundaries that I'm not going to look at my email between 5 and 7pm While I'm having dinner with my family or whatever. Those are the core things that are obviously super important. But we're always working, we're always on. It's not really a job where you're ever off. And again, it's not a bad thing. And this is not supposed to be any sort of series of complaint. I just think about the scope, and I want to get into scope a little bit when we talk about one of the articles that we picked today because it's just changing all the time. And part of what makes agents good at their job or good agents good at their job is that we are being really flexible about scope and how it shows up in different ways. So, for example, the article that I want to reference is the article that was called Nonfiction Book Publishers aren't Remotely Ready for AI and it Was published in New York Mag in the kind of like Intelligencer section written by Charlotte Klein, features writer, came out on May 20th. And it really, really just iterates. What we already know is like how much falls do agents and when there aren't systems in place. This article is talking about AI and nonfiction and fact checking. And when there aren't systems in place to protect authors from the publisher side of things, it's always going to fall, as you said, cece, to the agent who is in the middle ground between those two things. And so I thought it was really interesting article. I'll grab some quotes that I thought were especially important. One of them is some agents and editors are keeping this front of mind as they sign new clients, spending more time vetting writers for their human expertise. This is my favorite quote that I posted on Instagram. If I'm getting you as the agent, if I'm getting you a six figure book advance, I don't want you putting it into ChatGPT. Said a top literary agent, go to the fucking library. I love that quote because again, as agents now we have to be like, don't put this into ChatGPT. Don't use AI. Now we have to be the middle person between authors and tech as well as like the middle person between authors and publishers. I just find us right now in another middle ground where we are fighting the scope creep of having to learn so much about tech that a lot of us who got into the book business never imagined that we would have to ever learn so much about technology in computer and computer science. I certainly didn't think that. And so now I have to be like an expert in copyright law. I have to be an expert in, you know, emerging tech. I have to, I don't know, I just feel like the things that are being put on our shoulders just never ends in. In a way where again, I'm not surprised. This is not complaint, but I'm just wondering out loud, thinking out loud, as we layer all of these things on top of each other, are there things that like agents are starting to let go of in terms of the responsibility, or do you think that we're always adding things? Does that question make any sense?

[Cece Lira]

Like a mother's heart? Yeah, it makes total sense, but it's like a mother's heart. There's always room for more.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, exactly.

[Cece Lira]

Kids, we're talking about tasks. So because it is for our author. So no, we keep expanding, we keep expanding, we keep carrying more. And this is why you have to love it. Because when you Love what you do. Yeah, it's more. But it's more that you love.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. And it gets me thinking about some things. So this article is focusing on nonfiction, which is why I'm talking about nonfiction. And it gets me thinking about the amount. The importance of fact checking. And I feel like we talk about this all the time, how publishers don't pay for fact checking. And so authors of nonfiction are often hiring for fact checking. And a quote from the article said, anything that costs money, publishing is allergic to one agent noted, as usual, I think the onus is going to fall onto authors and agents. And then they're. Another quote. They're talking about someone in the article and said his book had three rounds of proofreading, but he did not hire a fact checker. Something that was never suggested to me by the publisher. And, like, I think fact checking is one of those things that kind of goes unsaid, but I'm like, why does it go unsaid? You know, as an agent, I want my clients.

[Cece Lira]

I mean, I can tell you why.

[Carly Waters]

Because they don't want to pay for it. So they don't want to bring it up.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, because if they bring it up, the author could be like, isn't that your job? And then, you know, there could be like, again, this is very me being myself. But, yeah, they could be like, hey, we're partners. We have to split this. Our contract doesn't say that we don't. Yes. Usually contracts say that they won't fact check, or at least sometimes they do. But if they say, I'm suggesting you do it, then you are saying it is needed. And if you're saying it is needed, there's a discussion of, well, then why shouldn't we at least split the costs? Or maybe even you do it, because I wrote the whole damn book, you know?

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then there's the whole negotiation thing of, like, yeah, can you just get more money from the publisher? And, like, that bucket of. That improvement on the advance goes toward paying for the fact checker. Right. Like, these are all.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

Leverage.

[Cece Lira]

But they also don't recommend or suggest hiring publicity, for example, but they want authors to, but they can't recommend it. Like, the second they make it a recommendation or even a suggestion, the second they even bring it up.

[Carly Waters]

Deficit.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, it suggests. It suggests a deficit, and it highlights the inequality. It highlights the imbalance between author and publisher.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, yeah. No, for sure. Yeah. Anyway, I thought that was just a really interesting article. Again, not, you know, saying anything that we particularly maybe don't know, but I think it's just really interesting again, how it highlights the fact that agents have to be the intermediary between all the fact checking AI kind of making sure that the clients are doing, you know, what they sign their contracts to do, which is write these books themselves, obviously. Yeah. Incredibly important. Yeah, yeah.

[Cece Lira]

And we have to like acquire new skills as agents all the time. Like, I don't think we have to be experts in, in all the things, but we do need to have, we need to be fluent in so much. It's a lot of hats. A lot of hats. I'm not talking about my Grinch hat this time, guys. Talking about the cute hats.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the constant upskilling is one of those things that feels good as a professional. Like, you always want to be improving obviously on your core skills, but I guess I'm just like, I'm upskilling in ways that I never imagined that I would ever have to on the tech side of things, which is interesting, but

[Cece Lira]

you're good at tech, so, you know.

[Carly Waters]

Thank you. That's very gracious. Yeah, I think there's like, there's also lots of different ways to upskill as an agent. You know, there's agents who really helpful on publicity side of things or social media side of things or, you know, events. You know what I mean? There's like, some agents are very editorial. Like, is that considered an upskill or is that considered a core skill? Because I consider a core skill the deal making. Right, the deal making, being, acquiring the client, selling the book, doing the contract like that, like contract y deal making piece is like what I consider the core skill. And then everything else is an upscale, in my opinion.

[Cece Lira]

I agree, I agree with your opinion. Our, our core job is selling. It's the deal making. Like you said, literally everything else. Like there's, there's actually really interesting parallel with the entertainment business. Right. Like, usually in entertainment you have the agent, but then you also have a manager. Like, we do both, you know, we project manage as well. And then we also do the coaching, which is part of the editorial. Like there's just, there's a lot, you know, there's a lot that goes into our jobs.

[Carly Waters]

I know, I know. Okay, well, thank you for indulging me on that, you know, place my brain was going today because I was thinking about that and it's fun that, you know. And as I said, this is not meant to be any sort of complaint. I like how our job evolves and I feel like it's always an interesting challenge, and it's great.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah. Evolve, adapt or die.

[Carly Waters]

Yes. Yes. Okay, so let's get to our first question. So this was from, I believe, the form that we have set up now, which is. Hi, Carly and cece. I have a question. I'm drafting my novel. I know I should start building my platform now, but I'm struggling to identify the topics around which to create content that would translate into eventual readership. If I'm willing to hire a professional to help me get some clarity, what type of consultant should I consider engaging to help me determine this? Am I looking for a freelance publicist or someone else? Thanks so much. This was funny because this question came in and then I also saw a really good substack on this topic. So I kind of want to partly answer the question, but then I want to kind of get into the substack, which provides a great answer for this. The first thing I just want to clarify in this question is the person says, I'm looking. Am I looking for a freelance publicist or something else? I think this just speaks to the lack of awareness of, like, what people imagine publicist jobs to be. A publicist is not going to help with social media. That is, a social media is technically a marketing job, not a publicity job. So I just wanted to be really clear about that. You know, a lot of this question depends, of course, on, you know, people's ability to financially float something like this. Of course. But I did. I do want to talk about a really great answer, which is the sub stack that I pulled out for us today, which is called how to market a book you haven't written yet. And this is from the hype and type substack and the person that wrote it. Their handles just archetype and they are in author, marketing and design. And so it's a really great article. I'll link to it for you guys. And I think there's just. There's. There's tons of things we can kind of pull out from this substack, which I thought were really great. You know, one of the headings of this article is like, first a reframe you are not marketing nothing. That's the first thing to thought to think about, you know, and then they get into some four content pillars and how to think about your yourself as a brand and as a concept when you don't have a book yet, which I thought was really interesting as well. Cece, what stood out to you about this question and this article?

[Cece Lira]

Such a good article. That's the first thing I want to say, like, so well written, so full of protein. Like, very clear, very helpful. Highly recommend people read this. I love that at certain point in the article, she says, like, there has to be a reframe. You know, there has to be a reframe. You're not supposed to be marketing a book that doesn't exist yet. Like, people think that's their job. And I actually think that was in the question we got. But that's not the job. Like, that's not the job. And then there's a really awesome pull quote, because I love a good analogy. So she said this is the equivalent of opening a restaurant, getting it permitted and licensed, hanging a sign, and then standing in the doorway saying, I'm a chef for two years without serving any food. Meaning you don't have a book yet. Like, you. Like, you're not supposed to be marketing that book. And then I'm going to continue reading from the article. Eventually people walk past and stop noticing. Don't be an author without a book. Be the reader friend who happens to also be an author. And later in the article, she says the leap from I trust your taste in books to I trust the book you wrote is much smaller than the leap from you're a stranger asking me to buy your debut to, okay, fine, here's my $30. And I love that she's highlighting this. I love that. First she's like, just saying, no, you're not supposed to market a book that doesn't exist yet. And people think you are. A lot of. People think you are. A lot of. We get a lot of dms about this. We hear a lot about it in chatter on social media. I need an audience. So I have to start marketing my book. But it's not even finished yet, or maybe I'm still querying, etc. Etc. You are not doing that. I love that. That's. That. She right out the gate debunked that. I also love that she talked about the pillars of what you should be doing instead in a very clear way. I don't know if you like that, too. That was really good.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. I mean, this is the reason that I love this article is we get this question all the time. And authors, you know, aspiring authors think about this all of the time, but they don't really know how to turn all of that energy into something. What they're trying to do is just turn that energy into something, and that's where they just spin their wheels. And what I really liked about this was there's some Actual factual information in this. So the first one being taste, right? Demonstrating that you have taste number two, process. But the sexy kind pillar three, your reading life pillar four, niche obsessions. And then it goes through, like, what not to do Again, tons of great information. And the thing is, like, it's okay to make mistakes in, you know, if you read this article and you're like, oh, I've done a bunch of things on it, maybe this person says I'm not supposed to, it's okay. That's the beauty of social media, right? You just kind of like start fresh today, start fresh tomorrow, and keep kind of moving on. There's also a great section about like rebranding, right? How do you pivot an existing account to something else? Authors will. Aspiring authors will often ask, do I need to like, leave that other account behind, you know, for friends and family, kind of like Facebook style, and start a new, like author account? I believe that you should pivot the one that you have. And this article goes into kind of explaining the and cons of both methods. But it is, it is, I think important just to like keep the fan base that you've had, scrub the account, move on from there. And this person offers some advice around that. But anyway, I think this is one of those articles that like, you bookmark, you keep, you come back to, you know, if you're somebody who's aspiring or has signed a contract or announced a deal and you're like, what am I going to do for the next two years? This is just a really, really great read.

[Cece Lira]

It's a wonderful read. And on the pillars, which again, probably one of my favorite part, I, I love that she talked first and foremost about taste. It's very interesting because taste, taste has always been an important part of our society. But now with AI and with the overwhelming amount of content that is frankly wishy washy and has no strong perspective in the world, has no true insight, it's just like regurgitating what's already been said or maybe like saying something that's kind of bland. Like having taste. Having a strong point of view is very important. And the author of this, of this article does say do not disparage books, which I 100% agree with. Again, if you are a critic, that is a different story. But that's not your job, right? Like, you are an author who's building brands. So I think it's really awesome that she mentioned don't disparage books. But I will say that does not mean you love everything. You're not going to talk about the books you didn't love, but you are going to be true and authentic. Like, if you're going to hype up a book, you better have loved that book. It has to be truly your taste. And when you hype it up, like, share your unique perspective, because that matters a lot. Like sharp perspective, a point of view is one of the most rare things these days. And I think it's really cool. I really loved that one. Especially I liked all the pillars. This is a great article.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

But yeah, awesome.

[Carly Waters]

Okay, so next we're going to answer some questions from readers. One of them is actually a really interesting question, which is why aren't there stats on what percentage of debuts die on sub? But before we get into that, we're going to hear from our sponsors.

[Cece Lira]

Sponsors.

[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Lira]

Surely this is logged somewhere by agents and editors. It's a big assumption. I don't think it's logged at all. Like, okay, so here's, here's my thinking on this. I understand wanting stats, but stats mean nothing on an individual level. If I were to tell you that 60% of books on submissions by all agents, all agents in the U.S. okay, 60% sell and 40% don't sell, you would go into your book sale thinking, I have a 60% chance. No, you don't. Statistics mean nothing at an individual level. That is what that group got. Like, you either have 100 or a zero. You know, it's a weird statistic thing and there's actually a really good math book about this. Like, it's not a boring math book. It's a good math book. And I so wish I remembered the title. I mean, it's going to come to me and I will link it. But yeah, stats mean nothing. So if you want this because you want to know your chances, that is not how statistics work. The other thing is that we do not collectively log this. And in order to get a sense, because it can still be valuable even if not to determine your own chances, we don't collectively log this. Like, agents are not going around going to this centralized database and being like sending in their information. And editors are certainly not doing this as well. And then it's not all going to a centralized database where we can have this information. In order for us to tell you the stats, we would need information from everyone. And no, we're not doing this.

[Carly Waters]

And also individually, like, those aren't the type of stats that I keep as a statistic. It's obviously information that I have as an agent when I have spreadsheets and I look at my spreadsheets. But at the end of the year, this isn't the type of data that I'm trying to parse through because this data isn't actually that useful to me at all because I'm always going for that 100% rate, as you said. Right, Cece? So of course not everything's going to work. But I don't, I don't decision make or pivot or. It doesn't inform any of my decision making based on what doesn't sell statistically. It might be a feeling that I have about like, oh, this category has been really tough this year. Maybe I should sign another client in this category knowing that, you know, xyz, I'm still on sub with this, but that's kind of like informal intuition, I guess. Right, yeah. Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Especially because so much of an individual agent's numbers depend on factors that include but are not limited to. For example, how many big chances they take if they're the kind of agent who is signing on more Memoirs like memoir is the hardest to sell. Not talking about celebrity memoir. So that agent might, you know, have a different stat. But that's not a bad thing, you know, because you're. If you're compared with an agent who is selling just the. The easier. Easier is such a ridiculous word to use, but the less difficult version to sell, like, it just changes so much. I do think it's important as agents for us to be always looking to like the books, the books that I'm signing. Am I. Am I finding the right editors for them? Editors who loved these books? Like, that's. That's definitely something to keep track of. But editors cannot buy all the books they love. There are just. There just isn't enough space in. In their lists. So. Yeah, I. You're saying surely this is logged. It is not. I'm sorry. I know that's disappointing. If I want to say this, though, if someone can convince other agents to, like, send in stats anonymously, I will start logging. I. I do not do this, but I will start. If. If everyone's going to do it, I will do it for the sake of statistic, but not because it's going to give someone a sense of whether their book will sell, because I actually think that would be kind of cool. But that's not going to happen.

[Carly Waters]

Talk about scope creep.

[Cece Lira]

That is a pie in the sky.

[Carly Waters]

Talk about scope creep of our job becoming data scientists. Now about our own. Interesting.

[Cece Lira]

No, no, but I mean more like, you know how the ALA asks us, like, how much money did you make this year? Like, if the ALA were to ask agents, how many projects did you submit and how many did you sell? I'm not talking about, like, data. Data scientist. Talking about, like, sharing that statistic anonymously. I would start tracking to answer. But. And this is a big but, it would only be useful if a huge number of people did it, you know?

[Carly Waters]

Yes. And also, like, some things, you go on sub in one calendar year and then you sell them the next calendar year. Like, again, like, how were we keeping this data? You know?

[Cece Lira]

Yes, a lot of questions. Exactly. And sometimes you're like, this didn't sell, and then it does sell six months later.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Because you got a surprise, you know, offer. Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

Yes. And that leads into our next question. So we'll go there. Do agents have A gut feeling about a sub at a certain point. Like, if they're seeing the same rejections from editors for a manuscript and a certain amount of time has gone by, do they read the tea leaves? Or is the process always surprising? So, and this was the reason that I kind of led into this from your answer, cece, is that, like, sometimes things really do take a lot of time. It's not always that it's surprising, because I don't know if Surprise. I wouldn't use the word surprising because, again, going back to, like, the 100% thing, like, we always. We sign projects and we pitch them because we want to sell them, and our goal is to sell things. So it's not, like, surprising to me when things do sell. Is it surprising when things don't? Sometimes. Sometimes it is. But again, I always have things in the back of my mind to pitch again, or if there's a new imprint kind of popping up, Nothing's ever over for me. But in terms of, like, a gut feeling about a sub, when a certain amount of time has gone by and you are getting just the, like, stock rejection. Yeah, I mean, I would say. How much time would I have to go by? Like, eight months, maybe? And then just be like, you know, if it got to that point, I'd be like, okay, this is just a harder sell than I thought it was. You know, and then we figure out what we're gonna do next. Yeah, I don't know. That would be my answer. I guess it's not very. I don't know. Is that a good answer? What's your answer?

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, no, it's a good answer.

I. I think it's a both and situation.

Like this person mentioned, if they are see rejections from editors. So this actually leads me to. You know, a lot of agents do this. Sometimes we'll go out on a smaller submission first, like, to seven or eight editors, and see if there's like a. I don't know, like a common thread in case there are passes before we widen a little bit. Sometimes people do that, and that might happen with a book that's a little bit riskier. And by that I just mean, like, maybe has a controversial topic. Maybe this book deals with themes that are a little bit harder. So that's something that's interesting, I think, to highlight. But, yeah, I think it's both. And because sometimes I do. I do notice a common thread. I'm thinking of one book. This is a fiction project of mine that didn't sell by this incredibly talented author who is Just like, she's such a strong writer. She's so smart. She's. She's marketable. She's mediagenic. She's like the dream. Her book is not just dark. It has a dark ending, and the kind of dark ending that I have never seen in any kind of story. She and I actually did a deep dive on all the similar comps. We're talking TV shows, we're talking all the books, because we're big readers, big consumers, and literally none of these books were as dark as her ending. None of them. This was back when the TV show Bad Sisters was trending. And this book involves killing a husband. And the husband in that TV show is someone who our world is comfortable killing because he is that bad. Like, spoiler alert, guys. But the man has done every. Every bad thing you can imagine he has done, including the very, very, very bad things. So you're comfortable with women getting revenge on this man because he's, like, such a heinous villain. But in this client's book, it was not. And before we even went out on sub, she and I talked about it. She and I were like, this is a huge risk. Could you change the ending? Sure. But she didn't want to. She had no interest in changing the ending she didn't want to write because it was so integral to the story. And so when we went out on Summit, we started seeing the rejections that were like, I read this till the end. I read this compulsively, but I just can't with this ending. Yeah, we were, like, not surprised because we talked about it, but we were doing what this person's asking, which is like, kind of reading the tea leaves and kind of like pivoting and deciding what to do. I applaud authors who. Who stand behind their vision. I do. I. It makes my life harder as an agent. I don't mind. I mean, that's not true. I mind. I mind, but I still want it, you know, because it is hard. But I applaud authors who are like, this is my editor vision. This is what I want. I am going to stick with it as long as you're doing it. Aware. What I don't want is for an author to be like, I had no idea this would be a problem. I'm so surprised. No, we've talked about it. We've talked about it. We talked about the risks. We talked about what could, you know, what could make editors say yes and what could make editors say no. And it is no one's job to eliminate all the no's, because that just makes a terrible book. That makes for a bland book. It's your job to know where you stand in the high risk or not spectrum of things.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, no, that's a. That's a really great and valid example. Yeah, there's. Our job's hard, Cece.

[Cece Lira]

Our job is hard. You make it look easy.

[Carly Waters]

Oh, thank you. Well, I always love chatting with you. Thanks for taking some time today. And, yeah, we have lots of fun stuff to talk about again next week. And we haven't said who our big reveal is of our first guest on. On our Monday episodes yet, have we. Have we dropped the name?

[Cece Lira]

I don't think we have. I think we teased it right. I don't remember. We should be more organized.

[Carly Waters]

We should. We're very organized in our day job, guys.

[Cece Lira]

Our jobs are hard. This is why we're not organized on the pod. Okay. Do you. You know why we're not organized here? Because Bianca's not here. Because it's you and me.

[Carly Waters]

I know.

[Cece Lira]

Because the kids are playing. You know, the kids are playing. You let the kids lose.

[Carly Waters]

We're having fun. Yeah. So, no, I think we teased it. We said, you're gonna. You're gonna know this person. You're gonna be excited. And. Yeah, it's coming up really soon. We're going to record with them next week and I'm really excited. And they are going to do their. The inaugural version of, like, the rant, the guest rant. They're going to come on and give their rant, and we've previewed some of the ideas they're thinking about ranting about, and we know you guys are going to love it. So stay tuned for lots of fun stuff coming up this summer. Thanks for hanging out with us and we'll see you guys soon.

[Podcast Host]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency, and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency. The last beta reader matchup of the summer has been extended thanks to Gremlins in the system. Instead of the matchup happening on 2 June, it will now be extended to 9 June, with matchup emails going out that day. If you haven't registered yet, and would like to take advantage of this extension. You have until midnight Eastern Time on the 8th June. Please go to www.aboutwriting.com, look for the Beta Reader Matchup tab and you can find all the details and register there.

[Cece Lira]

What's up everyone? This is cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled. And I wasn't surprised at all because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So, personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with hooks and of course, in my submissions inbox. But at the same time I talk to writers who tell me that they wish ages would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor, is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean. It's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible, to make agents crave it, to make agents want to read more. That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course, Starting it how to begin your story in the best place and in the best, best way. I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure that your story's beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the best one, the best place to start, and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things. When it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory, and what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline.

Most of all, I'm going to show

you how to make readers readers want to Turn to Chapter 2 Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepared to take lots of notes. We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques.

Plus a super fun surprise that I

can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.