All the Things You Might Not Expect on Your Author Bingo Card

Summary

Episode Summary: "All the Things You Might Not Expect on Your Author Bingo Card"

Podcast: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra
Guest: KJ Dell Antonia
Release Date: November 21, 2024

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1. Introduction and Deep Dive Virtual Retreat

The episode kicks off with Bianca Marais sharing her excitement about the upcoming Deep Dive Virtual Retreat scheduled for February 1st and 2nd. She highlights the impressive lineup of gatekeepers, including editors and agents who have worked on bestselling projects like Station Eleven, Crazy Rich Asians, and Big Little Lies. Bianca emphasizes the retreat's practical and valuable presentation topics, catering to writers at all stages of their journey. Notably, she mentions Annabel Monaghan, author of Nora Goes Off Script, as one of the standout speakers, inspiring attendees with her success from the very first retreat.

Bianca Marais [00:00]: "The presentation topics are brilliant, so practical and valuable regardless of where you are in your writing journey."

2. Guest Introduction: KJ Dell Antonia

Bianca warmly welcomes KJ Dell Antonia to the show. KJ is introduced as the former editor of the New York Times's Motherlode, co-host of the Hashtag Amwriting podcast, and author of How to Be a Happier Parent In Her Boots and the instant New York Times Bestseller The Chicken Sisters. Residing on a small farm in Lyme, New Hampshire, KJ retains fond memories of her upbringing in Texas and Kansas, which deeply influence her writing.

KJ Dell Antonia [02:20]: "Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I am extremely regular listeners."

3. Book Discussion: The Chicken Sisters

Bianca provides a compelling synopsis of KJ's debut fiction novel, The Chicken Sisters, which has gained significant attention, including its adaptation into a Hallmark original series. The story revolves around three generations of sisters from rival chicken shack families in Marinac, Kansas, whose longstanding feud leads them into a high-stakes reality TV competition, Food Wars. The narrative delves into family secrets, personal growth, and the challenges of overcoming entrenched rivalries.

Bianca Marais [02:25]: "Three Generations, Two Chicken Shacks, One Recipe for Disaster in tiny Marinac, Kansas..."

4. The Debut Author Journey and Challenges

KJ shares her unique journey transitioning from nonfiction to fiction. As a writer with the New York Times, she had an established platform, but debuting a fiction novel presented high stakes. She meticulously prepared her manuscript, working with a book coach, Jenny Nash, before querying her nonfiction agent despite knowing her agent's limited experience with fiction. Unexpectedly, her agent referred her to a colleague within the same agency, leading to a swift preemption with Putnam and subsequent success.

KJ Dell Antonia [04:42]: "I really worked hard to get this novel as good as I could possibly get it, both on my own and working with a book coach..."

However, KJ candidly discusses the pressures of debuting big, where exceeding expectations can make future projects feel more challenging. Her subsequent novels, while successful, reflected the difficulties of maintaining momentum after a blockbuster debut.

KJ Dell Antonia [06:44]: "I don't think anyone judges their insides by somebody else's outsides..."

5. Author Bingo Card: The Unexpected Challenges

The conversation shifts to the metaphorical "Author Bingo Card," outlining the unpredictable challenges authors often face. Bianca and KJ delve into experiences like losing editors—a situation KJ has personally encountered. Bianca relates her own journey, mentioning the loss of her editor at Putnam and subsequent transitions to different publishers, a common yet emotionally taxing aspect of an author's career.

Bianca Marais [08:18]: "Every time you lose an editor, it is called being orphaned. And it is devastating..."

KJ echoes these sentiments, acknowledging that nearly every author knows the pain of being "orphaned" by their editors. This shared experience underscores the often unseen struggles behind an author's public success.

KJ Dell Antonia [09:01]: "I don't think I even know anyone who hasn't been orphaned in that way."

6. World Building in Normal Fiction

Moving into the technical aspects of writing, the hosts explore the intricacies of world building in non-genre fiction. KJ explains her approach to creating the small-town setting of The Chicken Sisters, which mirrors her personal experiences growing up around real restaurants in Kansas. She emphasizes the importance of having a clear mental map of the town, its dynamics, and historical feuds, even if not all details make it onto the page.

KJ Dell Antonia [12:07]: "I need to draw a little map. I need to know where things are."

KJ also discusses the challenge of balancing detailed backstory with narrative flow, learning to pare down extensive historical details to maintain reader engagement.

KJ Dell Antonia [12:41]: "My editor was like, you know what? No one wants to know that. So, yeah, I had a huge amount of backstory that ends up getting pared down."

7. Sneaky Prologue and Exposition Techniques

Bianca highlights an innovative aspect of KJ's novel—the sneaky prologue. Instead of a traditional prologue, KJ employs draft emails from the protagonist, Amanda, to the Food Wars show, providing contextual backstory in a natural, non-intrusive manner. This technique effectively sets the stage without explicitly labeling the section as a prologue.

Bianca Marais [15:31]: "It was such a clever way of giving the reader context, kind of backstory, but without making it seem like backstory."

KJ elaborates on her intentional use of these draft emails to convey the layered history between the feuding families, ensuring the reader gains essential information seamlessly.

KJ Dell Antonia [17:05]: "I very quickly realized that I could use that... So yeah, that was calculated."

8. Choosing Narrative Voice: Third Person Close vs First Person

The discussion deepens into the significance of choosing the right narrative voice. KJ opted for third person close to maintain a balanced dual POV, allowing equal development of both main characters without the confusion that can arise from dual first-person perspectives. She emphasizes that the choice of narrative voice should align with the story's needs and the characters' arcs.

KJ Dell Antonia [21:36]: "This had to happen. And I have also learned that for me, I can't name a character without knowing what their mother would have named them."

Bianca adds her insights, advocating for intentionality in narrative choices to ensure that the narrative voice complements the story's structure and emotional depth.

Bianca Marais [23:10]: "When you choose between first person or third person, it needs to be intentional."

9. Multi-POV Challenges and Stakes

Addressing the complexities of multi-POV storytelling, Bianca and KJ discuss the importance of establishing clear stakes and character arcs for each protagonist. KJ illustrates how Amanda and Mae's opposing desires—Amanda's need to leave the small town and Mae's realization of the town's value—drive the plot forward and enrich their personal journeys.

KJ Dell Antonia [26:12]: "Amanda needs to give herself permission to leave this small town. Mae needs to realize that there's something to be said for coming back."

They also touch upon the difficulty of allocating word count to multiple characters, often necessitating the trimming of side character arcs to prioritize the main narrative.

KJ Dell Antonia [28:02]: "Both the mother and the mother in law also have very small arcs...had to come out."

Bianca reinforces the necessity of aligning plot developments with character motivations, cautioning against disjointed storytelling that neglects the characters' emotional journeys.

Bianca Marais [29:19]: "The wants and needs have got to tip the dominoes forward."

10. Conclusion and Supporting Authors

As the episode draws to a close, Bianca and KJ recap the invaluable insights on the often unspoken challenges of the writing life. They encourage listeners to embrace both the triumphs and tribulations inherent in the author's journey. Bianca also promotes supporting authors through platforms like Bookshop.org, emphasizing the podcast's commitment to aiding writers at every stage.

Bianca Marais [30:23]: "We hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one."

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Key Takeaways:

• Transitioning Genres: KJ Dell Antonia's successful shift from nonfiction to fiction underscores the importance of dedication, quality, and strategic querying.

• Navigating Author Challenges: The episode sheds light on the emotional and professional hurdles authors face, such as losing editors and maintaining momentum after a successful debut.

• Effective World Building: Creating a believable setting in non-genre fiction requires meticulous planning and a deep understanding of the story's environment.

• Innovative Exposition Techniques: Employing unconventional methods like draft emails can seamlessly integrate backstory without disrupting narrative flow.

• Intentional Narrative Choices: Selecting the appropriate narrative voice is crucial for balanced character development and coherent storytelling in multi-POV novels.

• Aligning Plot with Character Arcs: Ensuring that plot developments are intrinsically linked to character motivations enhances the story's emotional resonance and drive.

This episode offers emerging writers a candid glimpse into the multifaceted life of an author, blending practical advice with personal anecdotes to illuminate the path to successful storytelling.

Transcript

[Bianca Murray]

Omg. Have you seen the Deep Dive Virtual retreat lineup for the 1st and 2nd of February? It's incredible. Gatekeepers galore. As well as the authors who managed to get past them, we've got the editors and agents who worked on phenomenal projects like Station 11, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, Crazy Rich Asians, the Flight Attendant, Maame Wayward, the Wife Upstairs, the Tinder Swindler, Big Little Lies, the Perfect Couple, the Other Black Girl, and so much more. The presentation topics are brilliant, so practical and valuable regardless of where you are in your writing journey. One of our speakers, the brilliant Annabel Monaghan, who wrote the best selling Nora Goes Off Script, was a delegate at the very first Deep Dive Retreat and now she's kicking butt all over the place coming back to present. That could be you one day. Those of you who take part in the Thousand Words of Summer will also be super excited to see the fabulous Jami Attenberg in the lineup as well. Trust me, you do not want to miss this. Head to our website, theshitaboutwriting.com go to the deep Dive page to see more information and to register. We hope to see you there.

[KJ Dell Antonia]

Foreign.

[Bianca Murray]

Hi there and welcome to our show, the Shit no one tells you About Writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lera from PS Literary Agency. We'll be kicking off today's episode with our usual Books With Hooks segment, after which we'll go to today's guest. Today's guest is the former editor of the New York Times's Motherlode and the co host of the Hashtag Amwriting podcast, as well as the author of how to Be a Happier Parent In Her Boots and the Instant New York Times Bestseller and Reese's Book Club pick the Chicken Sisters. She lives with her family on a small farm in Lyme, New Hampshire, but retains an abiding love for her childhood in Texas and Kansas. It's my pleasure to welcome KJ Dell Antonia. KJ welcome to the show.

[KJ Dell Antonia]

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I am extremely regular listeners.

[Bianca Murray]

Oh, that's always wonderful to hear from authors. So thank you so much for that. I'm really excited to have you here today. So for our listeners, the book we're talking about is the Chicken Sisters, and you've probably been seeing that all over the place because it's been made into a Hallmark original series. We've been seeing tons of things about the actors and promos for that, which has been really exciting because when you read a book you have these characters in mind, you visualize them and then you see it adapted and it kind of comes to life on the screen. So for those of you who aren't familiar with the book, I'm just reading you the flat copy. Three Generations, Two Chicken Shacks, One Recipe for Disaster in tiny Marinac, Kansas, Chicken Mimis and Chicken Frannies have spent a century vying to serve up the best fried chicken in the state. And the legendary feud between their respective owners, the Moores and the Pugachellos has lasted just as long. No one feels the impact more than 35 year old widow Amanda Moore, who grew up working for her mom at Mimi's before skin scandalously marrying Frank Pogicello and changing sides to work at Franny's. Tired of being caught in the middle, Amanda sends an SOS to Food wars, the reality TV restaurant competition that promises $100,000 to the winner. But in doing so, she launches both families out of the frying pan and directly into the fire. The last thing Brooklyn based organizational guru Mae Moa, Amanda's sister, wants is to go home to Kansas. But when her career implodes, helping the fading Mimi's look good on Food wars becomes May's best chance to reclaim the limelight, even if doing so pits her against Amanda and Franny's. Yet when family secrets become public knowledge, the sisters must choose. Will they fight with each other or for their heritage? So lots of high stakes. We're always talking about high stakes and why something matters. And by just reading this flat copy, you can get the high stakes and why it matters. So kj, before we dive into chatting about the book, I just want to discuss this was your first debut fiction title. Holy hell, to debut this way with fiction. Can you just take us through that journey to publication, getting an agent, getting published and what that must have been like for you?

[KJ Dell Antonia]

So I have thoughts about the debuting this way that go beyond that as well. So I was already represented in nonfiction. I was a writer with the New York Times, so I was in a a sort of a different position than most of the people that I help query, which is that I knew that this query would get read and I knew that it would get read quickly. And I knew that this, the novel, you know, which was obviously finished when I queried, would also get read. But I suspected that I had exactly one shot to switch from nonfiction into fiction. So the stakes were high there as well. So I really worked hard to get this novel as good as I could possibly get it, both on my own and Working with a book coach, Jenny Nash, before I sent it out. And then I sent it to my nonfiction agent, knowing that she did not represent very much fiction. And what she did represent tended to be very much on the literary side. So I didn't expect her to want to represent it. And I was right, she did not. But she offered to refer me to someone else within her same agency, and that person ended up being my agent. And it was a very quick success, but it was very calculated. Like, I knew that if I went to them with something on the weaker side, they were going to go, oh, what? You know, she's a non fiction. At least that was my suspicion anyway. And then we had this novel which was in pretty polished shape. So it went out and it ended up as a preemption with Putnam. And I had my original editor there. Margot was wonderful for the Chicken Sisters. And I have since checked off the bingo card of authordom of having your editor quit and being moved on to a different author. So. Yeah. And then obviously, I mean, everything, everything came up roses for this book and I've written 2 cents and. And neither has been his successful. So I got all the feels about that, man.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, that's the thing that people don't realize is when you debut big, you set the bar really high and, you know, it's so hard to do better than that. And then you're like, what is it just downhill from there? And then, you know, you have authors like me who debuted quietly and with every, you know, successive book you like, hoping to finally get the New York Times bestseller. I think it means that no matter where we are in our journey, we are dissatisfied. Right.

[KJ Dell Antonia]

It doesn't matter. I think so, yeah. I think we are always sitting around raising our bars and there's a little mini Reese's Book Club author club of like, oh, this is, you know, this will probably be my most successful book. There are exceptions to that rule within the rhesus because there's hierarchies within everything. Right. So, you know, I'm having this really peculiar moment of having once again enormous success with my first book. But my third book, Playing the Witch Card, which is the obvious October book, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't get as much attention because it didn't have that kind of success. Although it's really, it's just as good. It really is. I swear to you, you know, non me commentators have said as much. So you just kind of don't know when that lightning is going to strike. And trust me that I Love the lightning. And I love this book. And it's been really fun to come back to that in this way. But it's also kind of really like, my outside on Instagram right now looks extraordinary. My inside is a mess because I've just, you know, spent months on a draft that I'm not sure is ever going to see the light of day.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, yeah, listen, this is the shit no one tells you about writing people. And, you know, same as kj. I lost my editor at Putnam with my second book. I then came out with a third book with an entirely different publisher. Love that editor. Have just lost her, and the fourth book is coming out next year. So, you know, this is how it goes. And every time you lose an editor, it is called being orphaned. And it is devastating because you've built a relationship with them because they're the ones who are so passionate about the book and they're driving the salesforce and they telling everybody about it. And so being handed to somebody else, it sounds pretty simple, but it actually is a big thing in an author's life. But it's happening more and more. It's becoming more the norm these days. Right.

[KJ Dell Antonia]

I don't think I even know anyone who hasn't been orphaned in that way. I really am. I'm going to make a little bingo card of authors, and that is totally going to be on it. But it just really, really is bringing home to me this rule that you never judge your insides by somebody else's outsides. And as much of I've as I've tried on Instagram to be like. And also, you know, I'm not having a great writer y moment. I'm also like, you know, sharing all this fantastic Chicken Sisters stuff. And I know that is pushing the buttons for other authors the same way. When I, you know, when I see you with your crowds, you know, at some of your events, I'm like, I never get a crowd. You know, it's. Anyway, we all do it. And I know that I am successful, but I don't always. I mostly don't feel it.

[Bianca Murray]

I love that we're having this discussion, which was not on my bingo card for today. But it is important because there are the times that I have gone on tour and I walk into a bookstore and there is no one there, which is kind of preferable because then I'm like, okay, I can go back to my hotel room, get back into my pajamas, open a bag of chips, and, you know, just cry myself to sleep. But then that one person will wander off the street to get out of the damn rain. And you know, they're not there for you and they're not going to buy the book, but there they are sitting in front of you. So you've got to go through the whole spiel. So all of these things are on the author bingo card. Not everything that is on the author card is going to be something great. It's going to be something amazing. There are incredible things, and very few people get to tick off Reese's Book Club, but there are just as many shitty things. And we're not saying this to discourage you. We're just saying it to say this is the author life and you need to be prepared for all of it.

[KJ Dell Antonia]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I guarantee you that Emily Henry has bad days anyway, so. But now we get to talk about some of the good stuff. Right. And I'm happy. I'm super excited to do that too.

[Bianca Murray]

Right. So what I want to dive into is whenever we speak about world building on the podcast, we tend to associate it with fantasy novels or science fiction novels or something dystopian. But what really hit me with this novel was the amount of world building that that had to go into it. Either before you started writing it or as you were writing it, you were going, oh, I don't know what's happening with this. I need to figure this out. I need to work out family trees. So for our listeners, this takes place in a very particular kind of town. It's a small town, but, you know, the two feuding sort of chicken sisters come from a long line of feuding family members. And we go back to, like, grandparents, great grandparents. And there's this one marrying that one and that one marrying this one. So can you speak a bit about world building when it comes to normal fiction that is not fantasy based. So it doesn't need to be this, you know, what is the magic system of the world? But certainly knowing as the author, what does this town look like, what are the dynamics, what are the politics, and where do these feuds come from over however many generations?

[KJ Dell Antonia]

Yeah. I've also written one with magic world building at this point, too, so I can compare. This was easier, but also really complicated. But one of the reasons that it was easier is that there is a real history to these restaurants. They really exist in a small town in Kansas where my parents grew up, and I grew up seeing them. So I had a mental vision. And what I have realized since is that I almost need a mental vision of a town and a street. Like, I need to draw a little map. I need to know where things are.

[Carly Waters]

But.

[KJ Dell Antonia]

And that is just for like describing where people are in time. But I also need a mental vision of a. Of a house. And I typically just take something from my real life and put it in there. But you are absolutely right that this had to go back generations. And let me say that what I did first was to do too much. I could tell you in great detail the history of the liquor laws and their differences between Kansas and Missouri, which these towns are on the Kansas, Missouri line. My editor was like, you know what? No one wants to know that. So, yeah, I had a huge amount of backstory that ends up getting pared down into just a few lines here and there. But I think that it has to happen. And I have also learned that for me, I can't name a character without knowing what their mother would have named them. And what their mother would have named them has something to do with what her mother named her and so on and so forth. So I've learned to do that without actually putting it in the book. But I do have to do it because that is how you know, that is how that works. Like, if you had a really hard name to spell, maybe you give your child something easier because you think that was torture. Anyway, it is world building. It is not magic system building, but it is really important and it gives you a basis from which to grow the characters.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, you know, it's like an iceberg. Not everything's going to find its way onto the page. There's this whole thing under the water that the reader perhaps doesn't see, but you can't get to the part that they do see knowing all of that, at least as the author. So was it a case of you sat first and mapped that all out and had it very clear in your mind, so you knew all of that before you began writing? Or was it a case of I'm going to write and each time I need to figure something out, I'm going to stop and flesh out what I know more? Because for me, I can't sit and work it all out beforehand. I'm a needs based world builder.

[KJ Dell Antonia]

I definitely didn't work it out all ahead of time. I mean, I have this cheat in that the restaurants, they don't exist and the history is totally different than what is in the book. But I think the cheat here is that they've been growing in my head since I was little because they were something that I was curious about since I was little. When I have done it since it's really been mostly needs based for playing the Witchcraft. I needed a small Kansas town, and I had kind of one in mind. And I was able to drive through it while touring. And I put that in quotes for In Her Boots, which entailed driving from Texas to Kansas in a car, which I did partly so I could stop and take some pictures of this town. But I didn't know what I needed until I started writing. I just kind of built a little reservoir that I could use.

[Bianca Murray]

Okay, so I want to discuss what I think is a sneaky prologue. Because, you know, on the podcast we have this thing about prologues and sneaky prologues. But before I do that, I'm actually going to show KJ this picture of her book, which has been devoured. It looks like it's been gnawed by rats at the bottom. And this is because yesterday I was looking after good friends, two French bulldogs who I suspect saw this on my bed, red chicken and decided to see if it tasted like chicken. So this is looking very lived in. But, I mean, they ate quite a bit of it, kj. So I think it tasted good. Right. So this book starts with the kind of sneaky prologue. It's not called the prologue. And it goes the hit TFC series Food wars is back, and this time it's personal. We're looking for rival restaurants with a deeper connection. Married chefs, best friends with dueling taco trucks. If you're a restaurant owner or worker who shares a bond with the crew at a competing restaurant in your town, we want to hear from you. And so it goes. It lays it out of what they're looking for in the show. And then we get a bunch of drafted emails from Amanda to, you know, Sabrina at the Food Channel. And it's a draft, and then we see the draft is deleted, and then there's another draft, and that draft is deleted, and then there's another draft. And so we finally see what is sent. And it's so interesting to start in this way because I thought it was such a clever way of giving the reader context, kind of backstory, but without making it seem like backstory. So was that your intention in the drafting process of those emails?

[Carly Waters]

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[KJ Dell Antonia]

Yes. I don't think I thought of it until I started to write them. Once I knew that this was going to be a. I think I knew from the beginning that this was going to be a reality TV competition between the two restaurants. And I started with that ad. I don't know that those are the first words I wrote, but it was always the beginning. And then I very quickly realized that by creating those draft emails, which it's really hard not to read people's email too. Like they're little, you know, little potato chips and you just kind of. So they have that already sort of built in. But yeah, I very quickly realized that I could use that. You know, the fact that there's a word limit in the request for the email and then the idea that Amanda would be Trying to give them. Like, she would want to give them this whole history. And of course, she can't. So the fact that she'd then pick and choose, like, okay, in this email, it's the history of the restaurants, and in this email, it's the family history of the existing families feud. And in this one. And then finally, in the end, it's just a very, you know, simple and straightforward one. But, yeah, that was calculated. And I don't know if I'll ever think of such a good idea again. Yeah.

[Bianca Murray]

So this is the thing about being experimental with your writing is that there are different ways to give backstory. There are different ways to give exposition and be experimental with it, play around with it, say, how can I do it in a way that's fresh and that's new and that delivers it without the reader even knowing that they get it? And it was only after I'd read all of it that I was like, huh, this is such an interesting way of doing that. And I wouldn't have thought about that. So definitely for our listeners, have fun with the way that you do these kinds of things. Something else that KJ did so perfectly is in the email, Amanda's writing from the first person perspective. So she's using her own voice, her own sort of vocabulary, her own sort of stilted phrasing. But then the rest of the book is written in, like, third person close, so you get the narrator's voice rather than Amanda's voice. And that was obviously very intentional. So I'm always saying to our listeners, when you choose between first person or third person, it needs to be intentional. Why am I doing one over the other? And if I changed it, how would that change the narration? And we can tell very clearly from those first person emails how very different the narration, the narrative voice would be if we got it in Amanda's first person as opposed to the author's third person voice. So can you speak a bit about that as well?

[KJ Dell Antonia]

Yes. I've also had the experience of changing a book from third person to third person or back and forth or. Yeah, a variety of exciting. Messing around with that. I wrote this in third person close in part because that is my favorite way to read, and also because it is dual POV and dual POV that are both in first person can be very confusing. But these two characters needed to be very much equal on the page. And then the final thing is that, yes, I don't know that I could sustain Aunt Amanda as a character, especially in the beginning, is very unconfident she's very hesitant. She's very uncertain about the various decisions that she has made. But she also doesn't want to admit that to herself. And I think I would find that very hard to sustain in the first person. I think part of the reason that this is in third person close is that one of these characters would sound more like me and the other one very much would not. And yet I have equal understanding and sympathy with them both. If I had written Mae, who's the character that I more easily relate to, her life choices in the first person and Amanda in the third, I think it would have come through that May was more important to me, which she was in the beginning, but she doesn't end up in the end. So, yeah, that would not have been the right choice. And I never did it that way. This one's been in third person close the whole time. And interestingly, in the TV series, they added an omniscient narrator, I think, because it's a hard story to tell without that.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, that's the intentionality we're looking at. So in my second novel, I wrote two characters from sort of first person and one character from the third person. And in my New York Times takedown review, which ripped that book to shreds, I was told that I wrote the one character from the third person because I viewed her as less than the other two characters. And that couldn't have been further from the truth. It was that a first person character can only tell the reader what they themselves know about their situation, about their circumstances. And when you write in third person, you as the narrator are able to convey things that the character themselves is not aware of. And so, again, that's something to really keep in mind because you just said, you know, Amanda's a certain way, but she doesn't see herself that way. And certainly, you know, we are all unreliable narrators in our own stories. So we would portray ourselves a certain way that maybe you want the reader to know that that isn't exactly the truth. And that's when you might want to play around with third person. Right.

[KJ Dell Antonia]

And sometimes you need that. Like you. Sometimes you want to only have the narrator's perspective on why they're making the choices that they're doing and what they see as the reasons that other people are making the choices that they're making, because their evolution is going to make them, you know, realize things that are different, and that's going to matter. So it just depends on the story that you're telling. And like I said, I've had to switch it around multiple times in the other books that I've written, and I don't think to their detriment. Sometimes you know, and sometimes you don't.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, I've done that as well. Hop backwards and forwards until I find my entryway in to figure out, okay, this is the best narrative voice. Something you just said now leads to the next question. So when you have a multi POV novel, you know, each character needs to have high stakes. What's at stake? Why does it matter that they do this thing? If they don't do this thing, what is going to happen? And then, of course, you want the character's arc. You want them to go on a journey. Who they are at the end of the book needs to be different to who they were at the beginning of the book. This is true for most stories. Obviously. There are always stories in which the character stays completely the same, but they affect change around them. But for most stories with this book, it was very clear early on what was at stake for Amanda, what was at stake for May, why they needed to do this, and then how the stakes got up, and then their character arc. But this is so much harder when you've got two main characters and so you've only got 40,000 words to develop each of them to be in their interiority, their emotionality as you take them through it. Whereas if you only have one character in a novel, you have the entire novel to do that. So can you speak a bit about setting it up for yourself up front, what the stakes were, making it clear on the page, what their wants and their needs are? Because I think that's so important in the first act to tip the dominoes over and to drive the plot forward.

[KJ Dell Antonia]

So to some extent, this has become a lot easier to explain because I've spent a fair amount of time talking about this book and thinking about it. So what I struggle to remember is how much of this was intentional and how much of it I had to find my way to. But especially looking at it now, these two characters are very. What they want and what they need to learn is completely in opposition to each other. And it is kind of funny because it was sort of my way of saying that there's no right choice here, which, of course is one of their primary goals, is for the other to admit that they were right all along. So Amanda needs to give herself permission to leave this small town. Mae needs to realize that there's something to be said for coming back to the small town. So they have this Opposing journey, which turned out to work extremely well. But, yeah, it's very difficult to snug it in to 40,000 words. And it meant for me that there's almost no side character story here. Both the mother and the mother in law also have very small arcs, but they are in the book small and direct and fairly precise. And in an earlier draft, one of Amanda's kids in particular also had a big arc, and that had to come out. There just wasn't room. So what turns out is that all of that side character stuff has to really stay underneath and in the background in order to have a dual POV two story book that is within, you know, the hundred thousand word. I think this is like 100 something, 6,000 words, which is a little long. And one of the things that's been a joy to see in watching them adapt it for TV is that they could bring out a bunch of secondary characters stories, and some of them feed on things that I had and some of them don't.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah. And so what KJ was just speaking about now was in terms of one needing to give herself permission to leave, one needing to realize there's something to be said for coming home. That's in terms of their character arc and the themes of the novel. But up front, what she does really well is she sets it up why each of them needs to do this contest. So Amanda wants to bring in more business. The business is failing. You know, things are not going well. She has her needs for wanting to do it, and her sister is. You know, she's working on another show, and she doesn't really think her sister. Well, she actually doesn't want her sister to be a part of it, and she doesn't think her sister will be a part of it. But suddenly her sister gets booted out of that, and so she needs to validate herself by moving on to something else. So it was really important upfront to set up what each character wants, what they need, and what's at stake. Because everything that follows comes from those wants and needs. And what's at stake, because it's plot, forward story. Because what we often see emerging writers do is go, oh, this is what my character wants. This is what they need. But then they have a plot that has got absolutely nothing to do with what those characters want and need. So the wants and needs have got to tip the dominoes forward. Right, K.J.

[KJ Dell Antonia]

Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. And can I just say that I've made that mistake in subsequent drafts of subsequent novels of having the emotional arc and the plot arc have really no relationship to each other and it's terrible. And I will never again draft an entire book that way. I say boldly and determinedly and probably.

[Bianca Murray]

Incorrectly, put that on your bingo cards everybody, because that is exactly something you are going to do all over again. You'll write a book and you'll be like, I think I know what I'm doing. And you'll begin writing another book and get halfway through and be like, oh shit, I don't know what this character wants. I don't know what their emotional needs are. I don't know what's at stake. So another thing to put on your list is you'll think you know what you're doing, but actually you don't. Kj, we out of time. It was so wonderful chatting with you. For our listeners, we're going to link to the Chicken Sisters as well as KJ's other books on our bookshop.org affiliate page. If you buy the books there, you support the podcast and independent bookstores at the same time. Thank you so much kj.

[KJ Dell Antonia]

Thank you. This was super fun. I love listening to you interview and being interviewed by you. As you know. Obviously just as good.

[Carly Waters]

A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the fulsome picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at PS Literate Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary agents. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our Substack Newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice, and more. You can find it at the about writing.substack.com that's the shitabout writing substack.com and.

[Bianca Murray]

That'S it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes. Omg. Have you seen the Deep Dive Virtual retreat lineup for the 1st and 2nd of February? It's incredible. Gatekeepers galore as well as the authors who managed to get past them. We've got the editors and agents who worked on phenomenal projects like Station 11 tomorrow and tomorrow and Tomorrow, Crazy Rich Asians, the Flight attendant, Maame Wayward, the Wife Upstairs, the Tinder Swindler, Big Little Lies, the Perfect Couple, the Other Black Girl, and so much more. The presentation topics are brilliant, so practical and valuable regardless of where you are in your writing journey. One of our speakers, the brilliant Annabel Monahan who wrote the best selling Nora Goes Off Script, was a delegate at the very first Deep Dive retreat and now she's kicking butt all over the place. Coming back to present. That could be you one day. Those of you who take part in the Thousand Words of Summer will also be super excited to see the fabulous Jamie Attenberg in the lineup as well. Trust me, you do not want to miss this. Head to our website theshitaboutwriting.com go to the deep Dive page to see more information and to register. We hope to see you there.