An Ingenious Query Hack

Summary

Podcast Summary: "An Ingenious Query Hack"
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Release Date: April 24, 2025

Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, and CeCe Lyra
Guest: Sarah Damoff, Author of "The Bright Years"

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Introduction

In the episode titled "An Ingenious Query Hack," Bianca Marais, alongside her cohosts Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra from P.S. Literary Agency, welcomes Sarah Damoff, a Texas-based social worker and author of the debut novel The Bright Years. This episode delves deep into Sarah's journey through the publishing landscape, offering invaluable insights for emerging writers navigating the complexities of querying agents and refining their manuscripts.

Sarah Damoff’s Publishing Journey ([03:10] - [07:41])

Sarah begins by recounting her initial foray into publishing during the summer of 2023. Initially considering small or hybrid publishers, she sought the expertise of an independent editor, Lori Grassi, through Bianca's assistance. Despite Lori Grassi typically not handling individual author cases, Sarah's manuscript impressed her, marking a significant milestone in her publishing journey.

However, Sarah’s path wasn’t straightforward. She faced a pivotal moment when she received multiple offers— from a small publisher, a hybrid publisher, and an agent—but sensed red flags, particularly with the only interested agent. Struggling with the decision, Sarah ultimately declined all offers despite having no alternatives at the time. This risky decision paid off when, months later, she secured representation with Jane Distel. Within weeks, The Bright Years was sold to Simon and Schuster, illustrating the importance of trusting one’s instincts over immediate opportunities.

Notable Quote:

“I had to say no to an agent and no to publishers when there was nothing else on the table… In hindsight, I'm glad I did.” – Sarah Damoff ([07:41])

The Querying Process and Identifying the Right Agent ([08:18] - [10:25])

Bianca underscores the challenge of securing the right agent, emphasizing that not all offers are beneficial, even if they come reluctantly. Sarah elaborates on the "yellow flags" she encountered with the initial agent offer:

1. Broad Vision: The agent had a non-specific, overarching vision for her book, lacking the necessary focus.
2. Lack of Specificity: Feedback from editors was vague, making it difficult to gauge genuine interest.
3. Perception of the Author’s Background: Implicit judgments about her writing background and lack of an MFA made her uncomfortable.

To overcome these challenges, Sarah adopted a strategic approach by leveraging Publisher's Marketplace to identify editors aligned with her aspirations. This targeted method led her to Jane Distel, whose clear and specific vision for The Bright Years perfectly matched Sarah’s objectives.

Notable Quote:

“When she talked about her vision for where my book belongs, what exactly is literary fiction, her vision just completely aligned with mine.” – Sarah Damoff ([08:18])

Structuring a Complex Narrative ([12:48] - [22:44])

Sarah discusses the ambitious structure of The Bright Years, which spans over 60 years and employs multiple points of view (POVs):

• Narrative Technique: The novel uses a mix of third-person narration in the prologue and epilogue, with first-person POVs from three different characters throughout the main sections.

• Character Focus: This structure allows readers to deeply engage with each character’s internal struggles and growth over decades, providing a multifaceted view of family dynamics affected by addiction and generational trauma.

Sarah explains that the decision to shift from an epistolary format to first-person present tense was influenced by feedback from agents who found the original structure challenging to sell. This pivot not only made the narrative more compelling but also aligned better with contemporary reader preferences.

Notable Quote:

“The lines, the voice is a more mature narrator… [Ryan] didn’t leave them because he didn’t love them; he left because he loved them.” – Sarah Damoff ([22:44])

Mastering Line-Level Writing: Similes and Metaphors ([24:24] - [31:42])

Bianca highlights Sarah's exceptional use of similes and metaphors, which elevate the novel's emotional resonance. Examples from the book include:

• “I carry a torn napkin home with Ryan's phone number, like a firefly in my pocket.”
• “Memories creep under doorways like smoke.”
• “Stubborn streaks of pink slashing through the gray like happiness through grief.”

Sarah explains that while her use of figurative language comes naturally, she remains vigilant to avoid overuse or mixed metaphors, ensuring clarity and impact in her writing.

Notable Quote:

“I’ve had to tone them down multiple times because sometimes it’s just too much.” – Sarah Damoff ([31:42])

Writing Process and Revision ([32:12] - [34:26])

Sarah outlines her writing process, characterized by rapid drafting followed by extensive revisions. She completed her first draft in late 2021 within two months, driven by a strong creative momentum. However, she took a deliberate hiatus to gain perspective and returned to the manuscript in mid-2022 with a clearer understanding of the publishing industry. This period of revision spanned approximately a year, during which she incorporated feedback and refined her narrative to better align with market expectations.

Sarah emphasizes the importance of stepping away from a manuscript to gain clarity and improve upon it, a strategy that proved instrumental in the successful publication of her novel.

Notable Quote:

“Sometimes the best thing we can do for the book is give ourselves clarity by walking away.” – Bianca Marais ([34:26])

Author’s Notes and Thematic Exploration ([26:25] - [28:23])

Sarah shares excerpts from her author’s notes, revealing the novel’s exploration of generational trauma, addiction, and familial legacy. Initially, Ryan Bright was intended to be an unexplored absent father, but his character evolved into a central figure struggling with alcoholism. This development was driven by Sarah’s desire to authentically depict the complexities of loving someone battling addiction.

The themes emphasize the inescapable influence of parental and familial relationships across generations, illustrating both the challenges of overcoming trauma and the potential for healing and redemption.

Notable Quote:

“There can be healing and there can be redemption… it was a hard journey through those generations.” – Sarah Damoff ([28:23])

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Bianca and Sarah conclude the discussion by celebrating the depth and emotional richness of The Bright Years. Bianca encourages listeners to support Sarah’s work through her book available on Bookshop.org, highlighting its profound impact and literary excellence.

Final Quote:

“Please get this book. Read it. You're going to underline it like crazy.” – Bianca Marais ([34:26])

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Key Takeaways

1. Strategic Querying: Identifying and securing the right agent requires discernment beyond immediate offers. Look for specificity and alignment in an agent’s vision with your manuscript.

2. Structural Adaptability: Be open to modifying your novel’s structure based on feedback to enhance its marketability and reader engagement.

3. Mastery of Language: Skillful use of similes and metaphors can significantly elevate narrative quality, but should be balanced to maintain clarity.

4. Revision is Crucial: Taking time away from your manuscript can provide valuable perspective, aiding in substantial revisions that refine and strengthen your work.

5. Thematic Depth: Exploring complex themes such as generational trauma and addiction adds profound emotional layers to your narrative, resonating deeply with readers.

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For aspiring writers seeking to improve their querying strategies and manuscript development, Sarah Damoff's experiences and insights offer a compelling roadmap through the intricate journey of publishing.

Transcript

[Bianca Murray]

It's Beta Reader Match Up Time again, where you can be matched up with those writing in the same genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 4th of May, with the matchup emails going out on the 5th of May because my new novel, A Most Puzzling Murder, pubs in early June and will be keeping me very busy. This will be the last matchup until the Please spread the word even if you aren't signing up this time. The more writers we have registered, the better the matchups will be, which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors and hopefully they'll do the same when the time comes for you to register. For more information, head to Biancamurrae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page. Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no One tells you About Writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency. Hi everyone. Today's guest lives with her husband and children in Texas, where she is a social worker. Her writing has appeared in Porterhouse Review, Ruminate Magazine and Open Global Rights, among other publications. The Bright Years is her debut novel. It's my pleasure to welcome Sarah Damoff. Sarah, welcome to the show.

[Sarah Damoff]

Thank you Bianca. Thank you so much for having me today. I'm excited to talk about the Shit no one tells you about writing.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, we're excited to have you as well because we have a bit of a history with you and the show which we will discuss shortly before then for our listeners. Those of you who are watching on the YouTube channel, I am holding up my highly marked up copy of the Bright Years. Beautiful cover. I'm going to read you the flat copy now so that you have context for what we're busy discussing. So Ryan and Lillian Bright are deeply in love, recently married and now parents to a baby girl, Georgette. But Lillian has a son she hasn't told Ryan about, and Ryan has an alcohol addiction he hasn't told Lillian about. So Georgette comes of age, watching their marriage rise and fall when a shocking blow scatters their fragile trio. Georgette tries to distance herself from reminders of her parents. Years later, Lillian's son comes searching for his birth family. So Georgette must return to her roots, unearth her family's history, and decide whether she can open up to love for them or herself While there's still time. Told from three intimate points of view, the Bright Years is a tender, true to life novel that explores the impact of each generation in a family torn apart by tragedy, but over time, restored by the power of grace and compassion. All right, Sarah, before we dive into the book and there's so much to unpack, like I say, highly marked up here. I think you were in our 2022 deep dive, and I put you in touch with Lori Grassi, who was one of the speakers there. Can you take us through that?

[Sarah Damoff]

Yes, definitely. So I've never done a deep dive, but I did see or hear her name through your podcast. And was it 20? I think yeah, it was late 2022. I, at the time was still learning about the avenues to publishing and was thinking that I might go with a small publisher or a hybrid publisher. And so I thought it would be helpful to find an independent editor who I knew, you know, had some credibility. And I reached out to you and you put me in touch with Lori and she did do an edit of the Bright Years, and it was wonderful.

[Bianca Murray]

Just on that. I mean, Lori doesn't. For the rest of our listeners who are like, I don't need to contact Lori Grassi. She doesn't really take these kinds of cases. She works with publishers and editors at publishing houses and they will outsource sort of publishing to her. So, you know, when Sarah reached out, I was like, well, I can try and put you in touch with Lori, but she doesn't really do this kind of thing. So let's see how it goes. She'll probably need to see a sample of your work and then she'll consider it. So the fact that Lori took you on, Sarah was like, at that time, already a huge compliment. Kudos to you. Can you take us through the rest of your publishing journey? And then what made you change your mind in terms of a small publisher? Did you get an agent? How did the rest of that look?

[Sarah Damoff]

Yes, great question and I'll give a few details. I don't always give because as an avid listener to your show, I know this is what listeners love to to hear. So as I learned about the different paths to publishing, it was really, I saw the benefits in each path and it was really that I was learning more about my own goals. So as I looked into hybrid publishing, a lot of the other people that I learned that were publishing through it were maybe only interested in publishing one book. They had a memoir. They needed to tell their story, they wanted to tell their story. And I began to realize I have a lot of books in me. I want to do this as a career, I want to keep going, I want the wider distribution. And so that's when I kind of switched to start thinking I should maybe look for an agent and pursue traditional publishing. And had a lot of encouragement to do that. And so I started doing that. Um, I had done it kind of half heartedly previously. I'd sent out query letters, I think before I even knew the phrase query letter. So they weren't, you know, quote unquote correct query letters. Learned a lot from your show about that. And so yes, it was summer of 2023. I also didn't know all the proper etiquette. So I think I've sent out a big batch of pitching agents as well as some small publishers and hybrid publishers. So I had some offers come in. I had a small publisher, a hybrid publisher and an agent. This was all the summer of 2023 after I had had done the edit with Laurie and been working on the draft. And that was an interesting time because those few offers that came in that summer and particularly the agent was very difficult because after we had our call, I had some yellow flags. And this was the only agent that was interested. And of course we know it's difficult to get an offer of representation. And I had off and on been trying for about a year at that point. And in the end I said no to all the offers that were on the table with having nothing else on the table at the time. And I remember going on a walk that night and just crying. You know, I just was like, what did I do? I just, I had had no. I was very unsettled about the options and I didn't think any of them were right for me and this project and my hopes for the future. It was very hard to say no to an agent and no to publishers when there was nothing else on the table. But in hindsight, of course I'm glad that I did because just a couple months later I signed with my now agent and then within a couple of weeks we had multiple major houses interested. I was speaking with editors and then we sold the book in a preempt to Simon and Schuster. So that part, you know, it's. Once I got to that part, it was very much a whirlwind. So it was within weeks of signing with my agent that we sold the book. But I had first had that experience of having to say no to some options that I was unsettled about.

[Bianca Murray]

So, yeah, you know what? I love all of that because it's so difficult to get an agent interested. And so when you get that interest, you just. Your first impul. Is to just say yes, say yes, and ignore all the flags because you're just so desperate for it. And for those of you who've been querying for longer, you know that, you know, I know some of you have been querying for ages, and you're just like, oh, my God, if I could just have one agent saying yes. But what Sarah's just said is so important because it needs to be the right person saying yes. Are you able to share with us what some of the yellow flags were, Sarah, so that our listeners can kind of benefit from. From that as well?

[Sarah Damoff]

I can. I'll be a little vague because I don't necessarily, on this format, want to expose, you know, who the agent was. But I felt like the vision was. Was actually just very broad. The editors mentioned it just felt extremely broad. And this agent's list was really broad. I felt like there was no specificity. I felt like it was possibly looked down on a little, that I didn't have any writing background or an mfa. A couple of comments that were made made me a little unsettled. But I think the main thing was just the broadness of the vision. And I felt like the editors weren't very specific. And I will say that this was really helpful to me. When I signed with the agent that I did sign with, Jane Distel, I had gotten to the point where I decided to work backwards. I got a Publisher's Marketplace membership, and I started with. I started looking into editors, which I had never done before, but they're a lot fewer editors than there are agents out there. And so I just looked at the websites of the major houses and I looked at which editors, you know, if I were to make a list of dream editors. And then I went into Publishers Marketplace and looked at who are those editors doing deals with. That to me, was. Was very. I had multiple agents interested after that. I felt like that kind of unlocked the way to target the agent. And what was really affirming to me was when I had the call with the agent that I signed with, she had editors in mind, and they all just kind of matched up with the list I had made, not knowing nearly as much as her, nearly as much as she did. And I didn't even tell her, you know, I have this list of editors I've been looking at because I knew, you know, she's the expert. But when she talked about her vision for where My book belongs. What, you know, even I was still struggling with is this literary fiction. What exactly is it? And she, her vision just completely aligned with mine, unlike the agent that I had ended up saying no to.

[Bianca Murray]

I love that querying hack. I hope you're all taking notes. If I was in the querying trenches, I would be taking notes and I'd have light bulbs going off and I'd be like, that is so smart. It really, really is smart. And yeah, you know, at the right agent for you is going to have a very specific vision for your book. You know, when, when they have this broad vision, it's kind of like we're going to throw everything against the wall and see what sticks. And that is not a good approach to going out on submission. You know, it should be. I know these editors are going to love this kind of book because this is in the wheelhouse. So, yeah, I love that you listen to your guts and for our listeners, do the same wherever possible. And also, I just want to point out, so for those of you watching on our YouTube channel, this is a stunning advanced reader copy. It is high quality. I mean, you must feel the. I don't know if they, what the heck they even call this here, but the COVID glistens inside. It's a ton of endorsements from booksellers. So you can see this is not just a Simon and Schuster title. It is a Simon and Schuster lead title. Something that they are putting money behind because they really, really believe in it, which just shows that it ended up with the right editor at the right house. Okay, so Sarah, questions that I have for you. One is this is such an ambitious debut novel, so just for our listeners, one. Okay, we have the prologue and we have an epilogue. But now listen to this. They are in third person point of view. We then have three POV characters throughout the novel that are in first person point of view in three different parts. So it's not chapter one, it's this character. Chapter two, it's this character. Chapter three, it's this character. And then we rotate through it. It's like we are firmly entrenched in one character's pov. Then a third way through, we go on to the other one. And then at the end we go to another one, which is so difficult to do. We have a story that spans more than 60 years. Six. Zero. That is a hell of a time span. So can we speak about that? Like, Sarah, I know when I wrote my debut, which people thought was quite ambitious, I didn't know enough to know it was ambitious and that I shouldn't be trying these things. When you were writing this, did you know it was hugely ambitious, or were you just like, yeah, this is kind of what I want to do?

[Sarah Damoff]

No, I didn't know it was ambitious at all. It just happened very organically. And I will say, I love that you brought up the prologue that was added after I worked with Lori. So the book starts and ends with the character of Ryan Bright, and that's a flash into his childhood. And that had been there kind of in hindsight. And when she mentioned maybe we should see that at the beginning, it was like, you know, my experience with editors is about 90% of what they say, even if they don't know the solution or, you know, they just make a little suggestion, it'll resonate and it'll trigger a thought of, oh, I could do this to fix that problem, or I. You know. And so it was like, as soon as she said, maybe we should see him as a child more, at the beginning, it was like I saw the whole scene. I think I wrote it that day that she. Because I got so excited about the suggestion. And I remember thinking, well, I hope this works. You know, the shit no one tells you about writing always tells us to be careful with prologues. So that's where that came from. And initially, the book was a novel in letters, and that was how the structure developed, the long period of time in each pov, because it was initially going to be a daughter as she comes of age, is receiving a bunch of letters all at once that her mother had been writing over time. And so when I moved the draft from letters into first person, present tense, I just kept that same structure that had happened through it, having been in letters.

[Bianca Murray]

So moving from letters to having this kind of structure, was that something that came with Lori's suggestion, or had you already changed that before, Laurie? Because I'm always fascinated by the evolution of a novel, because this is when you know that something has legs, is when it's been revised, but, like, not revised that, oh, I'm going to take this paragraph out or I'm going to shove this in there. Like a complete overhaul in terms of structure, etc. And then I love seeing that process of how it ends up being the way it was. So at what point did that happen for you?

[Sarah Damoff]

So that was not something through Lori. That was when I first was reaching out to agents. Two or maybe three agents responded, basically saying, I don't even consider epistolary novels. I don't look at these are very hard to sell. And so by the time I heard that more than once, I was kind of like, well, maybe I should at least experiment. You know, I wasn't super attached to that structure, and I knew as the creator that I would have to love it if I was going to, you know, basically rewrite it differently. And I, you know, I experimented with a couple of chapters and immediately was like, this is. The letters had just been so reflective. And when you're in that first person present tense, you're experiencing it along with the characters. And I think that's more of what contemporary readers are looking for. And I could feel it becoming more compelling. And so I was excited then to kind of take on a rewrite.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, the problem with epistolary novels is that, you know, it can be so much telling because you are at a place in the future looking back, and you are telling what happened, and so much time has passed. And so who you are now is different to who you were then when you were experiencing that. And so things don't feel immediate because you bring something from the future. So I think, you know, that's why a lot of agents are not. Not even prepared to look at them because they're just like, this is mostly going to be telling. And it's amazing that even negative feedback. Right? Because I think at the time when you were getting those rejections, it was really upsetting to be told. I'm not even going to consider this, but at the time, it was, you know, hard to take on. But you took that feedback and revised because of it. And the novel wouldn't be where it is today without that negative feedback early on, right?

[Sarah Damoff]

Absolutely, yes. I'm so thankful to the agents. I know that many of them don't have time to do that, but those who read first pages or read possibly even more than that and gave the feedback that they did, because I was taking all of that and tweaking and seeing if it resonates with me. If this is something I've heard more than once, then let me see how I can improve the manuscript.

[Bianca Murray]

I have a ton more questions for Sarah, which we're going to dive into straight after this. But first, a message from our sponsors.

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[Bianca Murray]

So you've started your story with everything that you meant to. Strong curiosity seeds, an element of surprise, a strong main character who the reader connects with, context, conflict and tension. But you're still getting these soul crushing responses from agents. I didn't connect with the story the way I wanted to. The premise was intriguing, but this ultimately wasn't for me. I'm not the right agent for this project. Let me know if you're working on something else. Which is so incredibly frustrating because you check their manuscript wish list and this is exactly what they said they wanted. They've asked for the fall, so you know the premise intrigued them. If you did everything right, why didn't they love it? You have a killer hook, so what's not working? Circling the building of your work can help diagnose the problem. Perhaps there's another main character just waiting in the wings, desperate for their big break. Have you truly found the beating heart of the story? Or is its pulse weak? Have you been looking at it through the wrong end of a telescope all this time. Sometimes all you need is a change of perspective to realize that you've chosen one way to tell your story. But there are infinite ways, and hot damn, the fix might have been staring you in the face all this time, but you just couldn't see it. I feel your pain. I know your frustration because I've been there. And I'm going to take your hand and lead you through my entire process of circling the building so you can learn how to diagnose your own work. The webinar is happening on the 13th of May from 7 to 10pm Eastern Time. Go to my website, Biancamarae.com, find the courses tab to book your spot. Coming back to that prologue, I love that it was something that was added later and that an editor told you to do it. Again, people, we are not anti prologue. We are anti bad prologues. And this was an excellent prologue. So was there a reason why you and Laurie said, okay, you are going to write Ryan in the third person in the prologue, whereas later on his POV is in the first person. What was the intentionality that was brought to that there?

[Sarah Damoff]

I actually don't know that Laurie and I ever even discussed that. I just wrote it that way. And I think part of that was because in the prologue, ryan is like 7 years old or something. And I didn't. I felt like it would be stronger if the voice were a more mature narrator. And I do try to take you kind of into his experience, but I didn't want it to necessarily be a child's voice. And that's similar to the epilogue. I had originally written that in a child's voice, and it wasn't working great. And so I think I already had changed that to third person. And so I don't know that I even thought much. I don't even remember making a conscious decision about which narrator to use for the prologue. But then it just. It was afterwards I realized this is. This is really nice how it bookends it with the third person.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, no, that. That makes complete sense in terms of. Again, I want to explain to our readers how important intentionality is. So you could have, in some instances, like especially in the early chapters, you could have alternated ryan and Lillian's POVs. You could have had Lillian speaking, then Ryan's chapter, then Lillian, then Ryan's. Obviously, Georgette's chapters. You couldn't have done that early on because she was only born later. But again, in terms of intentionality, why keep Ryan's POV entirely for the last third of the book for part three, as opposed to interspersing in the beginning. What would that have changed about people's approach to the novel and the understanding of the characters that you didn't necessarily want?

[Sarah Damoff]

So Ryan is a character who's experiencing a long struggle with alcoholism and there was something powerful about exploring that through his wife's POV and what it's like to, to love him through that in there, especially early in the book. There are a lot of times as a reader, I think, where you're, you're just, it's painful, you're frustrated. He's, he's trying and he's failing. He's hurting his family, even though he doesn't want to be doing that. And so we stay with Lillian for a long time to just get very deep and intimate with her into what is that experience like from her perspective? And as you said, Georgette is, I mean, we see her, we meet Ryan and Lynn before she's even born, and then we see her kind of growing up. So by the time we enter her pov, she's a teenager. And that also felt natural. And so once I had those two pieces in place, it was like, now how powerful is it once we've seen Ryan's life play out through the other people's eyes in his family, to then see him later in Life? So the POVs aren't kind of going back over the same scene from different perspectives. It's more, okay, decades later. Let's hear from him now that we've, we've seen all of this life so far. It's time for him to speak and it's time for him. And by that point, he has changed a lot. When we begin hearing from him, he said still is not sober, but he has gained a lot of insight from his experience. And so that's the time when we come into his voice.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, and it was, it was the perfect time because like you say, there was this frustration with him. There was this. I was frustrated with, with Lillian at times. I was like, why are you chasing after this man who just keeps letting you down? Why? You know, like. But, but hearing his perspective when we did was just incredible. So it was the right choice for the book. I'm going to discuss shortly some descriptions that Sarah's written and her incredible line level writing, including similes and metaphors. For now, I just want to read from your author's notes at the beginning of the book. So it says, working with families for two decades now. I'VE seen many iterations of my friends generational cycle. When I started writing the Bright Years, the character who struggles with alcoholism wasn't supposed to be a main character. He was supposed to be an unexplored absent father. But he refused to stay off the page. So I interviewed people who were generous enough to tell me about their own addictions and loved ones with addictions. Every family I've worked with is its own love story, complete with triumphs and tragedies. And I believe a good novel can do the same thing as a good social worker helps someone feel a little bit less alone. The Bright family's winding path reflects what I've witnessed in my personal and professional life. From substance abuse to adoption to the shape shifting of family through marriage and divorce, birth and death, the Brights experience decades of life together, or as together as they can be with the burdens they each carry throughout the years, their story unspools and it is one of secrecy and denial, truth and revelation, regret and redemption, inheritance and legacy. And that just like really, really perfectly encapsulates that. When you sat down, were there themes that you knew you wanted very particularly to explore, or did you sit down and just tell the story with Ryan being like, hello, hello, I want to tell my story and then afterwards figure out what it was all about?

[Sarah Damoff]

A little bit of both. The original big theme was this idea of, from the parent and the child side, what is it like to learn your parent? Or what is it like as a parent to let your child know who you are and who you were before they were born and how that happens over time and the impact between generations, the way that we just can't, we can't get away from being impacted by who our parents are. And even in turn, parents can't get away from being impacted by who their children are. And so that was the. I think the big theme was just how do we. How are we impacted through the generations, but also how there can be some overcoming when there's, when there's generational trauma, there's not a magical silver bullet to get rid of it. And yet there can be healing and there can be redemption. That's, you know, hard one through those generations. And so that was, that was the main big theme that I started out with. I did not start out with intending it to be an addiction book or have that be so front and center. But as I said, as I got to know Ryan and tried to just make him kind of be almost a part of Lillian's past, I realized he didn't leave them because he didn't love them. He left them because he loved them. He was trying to protect them from himself. And. And as is the case with many families who have loved ones with addictions or alcoholism, it's often not a true cutting of ties. It's a very in and out of our lives. And how do we have this relationship with some healthy boundaries, but also with all the love and affection that comes with loving, you know, with someone in your family over a long period of time. So the addiction theme came a little bit later, and then those kind of generational interplays were a big part of the book.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah. We had another interview with Kath Jonathan, who wrote the Resistance Painter. And she also spoke about a character, Irena, who she did not want to be on the page. And this character just kept insisting that she had to be in the story, and so she had to learn how to write her. And I love those kinds of characters. I love it when you think the book is about something else. And this character is like, no, man, here I am. Please listen to me. And it's wonderful when we as authors, specifically listen to that. So I want to read two descriptions that Sarah's written here, just as example of really great character descriptions. Ryan has dark, shaggy hair, paint flecks on his fingers and beard scruff down his neck, a gap between his two front teeth. His eyes are a sinking dark. I can hardly see the pupil for the iris, like a tree in a night wood. His clothes are plain, his build and threatening but not weak. He's like an understated book cover, which is the type I'm inclined to open. So such an incredible description there. And here I want to give you a description of a character of themselves in the first person, because this is something that's always difficult to do because it's weird if a character goes, I have brown hair and blue eyes, so this is from Lillian's pov While he's in the restroom, I sneak a compact from my purse for a quick face and head check. Still no makeup and still need a perm. Still Dad's thin lips and Mama's big eyes and my dark circles. I sigh and snap it shut. So just like a little moment in which to give the reader something of how to imagine that character. Now, something that you have done really, really master masterfully is similes and metaphors, Sarah. So I want to read some of them for our listeners. I carry a torn napkin home with Ryan's phone number, like a firefly in my pocket. Here we go after the library and baklava. Ryan and I pass six months together with like. Like a morning stretch, that carefree inhale before the day picks up with its work and worries. Here's another one. We've been slow to climb each other's family trees, and I'm reminded of what a daunting climb it can be. Branches might snap, go. He chews and gulps and blinks, his fork stilling beneath a limp wrist. He never talks about that night, ever. I set my fork down as silence surrounds us like an ambush. I'm finding some more because I just. I really want you all to. You hear these incredible metaphors and similes. Still, memories creep under doorways like smoke. And another one when Seth slows down and the kids start to yawn. We walk home under a dimming sky, stubborn streaks of pink slashing through the gray like happiness through grief. So, Sarah, let's talk a bit about writing on the line level, because this is really where great writers are made. It is the building blocks of excellent books. Are you just someone who's really damn good with the similes or metaphors, or is it a case of polishing a gem until it really shines?

[Sarah Damoff]

I think the similes and metaphors come naturally, to the point of multiple times I've had to tone them down, or I realize I have a mixed metaphor in the same paragraph where I just. It's just too much and I have to cut some of them. So the line level is what I love, and the story and plot are harder for me and I have to work harder at that. So the character development and the line level comes very naturally. And then I have to figure out, you know, what are we doing here in terms of our story arc?

[Bianca Murray]

I mean, if you think about it, this is a quiet book, but it's loud as well. This is the thing. It's quiet in that you would be mistaken if you say not much happens because it's real life. It's things that happen to real people every single day. And most of these things aren't even big enough for somebody to write a memoir that is guaranteed to get published. Right? A lot of people write these kinds of memoirs, and publishers are like, we see this every day. This isn't a special story. And yet you make the story so loud and you make the everyday so compelling through the force of the brilliant interiority, the emotionality, and the line level writing. So, I mean, how long did this take you to write from start to finish, through all of its iterations?

[Sarah Damoff]

Great question. So the first draft I did kind of late 2021, and I am not an outliner, so a complete pantser. So I knew the title and I knew the final scene and I didn't really know anything else. And so I drafted it in about two months because I just couldn't stop. It was so much. It was like reading, but better because I was every day discovering what's happening to these characters. So because I draft so quickly, I spend a lot of time in revision and doing rewrites. And so then I actually put it away and kind of forgot about it because at that point I wasn't really thinking publishing for at least six months. I mean, I was doing other things, writing other things, not thinking about that manuscript. And then when I came back to it in the summer of 2022, that's when I really was like, I'm going to learn more about the publishing industry. And I spent the next year really doing revisions. That's when I heard from those agents, you know, we're not interested in epistolary and all of that. And so it was from start to finish in terms of when I signed my book contract, it was about two years. So some of that again, at least six months. I didn't look at it at all. The first draft was very fast and then just a lot of time in the revision stage.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, that time away from a manuscript is so important. Sometimes we feel like we're giving up on a book when we walk away. But I think sometimes it's the best thing we can do for the book is giving ourselves that clarity. Right. We're at the end of our time for our listeners. We're linking to the Bright years on our bookshop.org affiliate page. If you get it there, you support an independent bookstore and the podcast at the Taint at the same time. Please get this book. Read it. You're going to underline it like crazy. Have have your highlighter next to you because you're going to need it. Thanks so much, Sarah.

[Sarah Damoff]

Thank you so much for having me, Bianca.

[Bianca Murray]

And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes, it's beta reader match up time again, where you can be matched up with those writing in the same genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 4th of May, with the matchup emails going out on the 5th of May because my new novel, A Most Puzzling Murder, pubs in early June and will be keeping me very busy. This will be the last matchup until the Please spread the word, even if you aren't signing up this time. The more writers we have registered, the better the matchups will be, which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors, and hopefully they'll do the same when the time comes for you to register. For more information, head to Biancamurrae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page.