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- [00:01]
Cece Lira
Hi everyone, it's Cece here. If you're a fan of the podcast.
- [00:05]
Bianca Murray
Then you know that one of my.
- [00:07]
Cece Lira
Most common notes on the Books with Hooks segment is about writing emotion. And that's because the best stories are.
- [00:13]
Carly Waters
The ones that make readers feel.
- [00:16]
Cece Lira
But as a storyteller, you know that pulling that off is hard work. It involves not only the obvious skill.
- [00:23]
Carly Waters
Of writing emotion really well, but also.
- [00:26]
Cece Lira
Mastering writing relationships effectively, since since those emotional beats involve the protagonist's relational connections, the best stories are also relationship driven. That's why I'm so excited to announce that I'm teaching a four day class called Writing Emotion and Relationships starting on June 18th. Over the course of four days, we'll cover over 10 hours of content, including active versus passive emotions, how to leverage emotions and relationships into tension, showing versus telling, how to create chemistry between characters, emotional calibration and roles for various characters, from love interest to antagonist, and so much more. And my favorite thing, this course will feature an interactive component. Everyone who signs up will have the.
- [01:16]
Carly Waters
Option of submitting a scene from their.
- [01:18]
Cece Lira
Work for a chance to have it critiqued during the course. We did this in my Starting It Right class in March, and if you were there, you know it was a scene.
- [01:27]
Carly Waters
Smashing success.
- [01:29]
Cece Lira
If you'd like to know more, check.
- [01:31]
Carly Waters
Out the link in my bio on Instagram.
- [01:34]
Cece Lira
I hope to see you there. Come prepared to take lots of notes.
- [01:45]
Carly Waters
Hi there and welcome to our show, the Shit no one tells you About Writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and cece Lira from P.S. literary Agency. Today's guest received a BA in English Literature from Princeton University and an MFA in Film Production with a focus in screenwriting from the USC School of Cinematic Arts. She currently lives in Los Angeles where she works as a film editor. It's my pleasure to welcome Lauren Ling Brown. Lauren, welcome to the show.
- [02:19]
Cece Lira
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I've been such a big fan of your podcast, so I'm excited to be here and speak with you.
- [02:27]
Carly Waters
That is always amazing to hear, you know, because we've been on the air for so long. And the great part now is that we are starting to see books published by people who were listening to us, however many years ago. And that is the most rewarding thing ever. Now for our listeners who are watching on the YouTube channel, I am holding up Lauren's book, Society of Lies. It was a Reese's Book Book Club pick, which for a debut is insane. It's just so exciting and we're Going to dive into all of that. I'm just going to read the flat copy for our listeners so that you've got some context. Okay. How far would you go to belong? Maya has returned to Princeton for her college reunion. It's been a decade since she graduated, and she's looking forward to seeing old faces and reminiscing about her time there. This visit is special because Maya will also be attending the graduation of her little sister, Naomi. But what should have been a dream weekend becomes Maya's worst nightmare when she receives the news that Naomi is dead. The police are calling it an accident, but Maya suspects that there is more to the story. As Maya pieces together what happened in the months leading up to her sister's death, she begins to realize how much Naomi hid from her despite Maya's warnings. Naomi had joined Sterling Club, the most exclusive social club on campus. The same one Maja belonged to. And Naomi was also tapped for the secret society within it. The more Maya uncovers, the more terrified she becomes that Naomi's decision to follow in her footsteps might have gotten her killed. Because Maya's time at Princeton wasn't as wonderful as she's always made it seem. After all, her sister wasn't the first young woman to turn up dead. Now every clue is leading Maya back to the past and to the secret she's kept all those years. Dun, dun, dun. Right. So there's a lot for us to unpack, Lauren. We're going to try and get through as much as we possibly can. First, I would love to look at your journey to publication. You know, the inspiration for this book when you started writing it all the way up to now.
- [04:34]
Cece Lira
Yeah. So this book had a long journey. I actually tried to write a similar story ten years ago, and that was when I was in film school. It was sort of my thesis project. Project. But I didn't feel, you know, it wasn't quite right. And it didn't have the sisters. It wasn't what it is now. So I ended up going into post production, working in film editing for 10 years in various roles. And then over the pandemic in 2021, I returned to it January 2021. I had already written two other books, queried one of them unsuccessfully. And. And so this was my third attempt at a novel. And I had always loved writing. I'm obsessed with reading. I. I'm a big reader, but, you know, I just didn't know if I could actually get a book published. And so it was really exciting for me when I found my agent, Alexandra and it was. Everything else just went from there.
- [05:32]
Carly Waters
So let's just unpack that because I love hearing that these overnight success, success stories, you know, we. We tend to look at somebody like you and go, oh, her debut was a Reese's Book Club pick. Overnight success. And then I love digging under the surface and being like, well, it actually wasn't an overnight success. There was a lot of work that went into that, lots of querying. So was it that the other two books you wrote, you queried, all got rejected, you didn't get an agent, and then when you wrote this book, you went out and that is how you got your agent with this particular book?
- [06:03]
Cece Lira
Right. I didn't know anyone in publishing, so my first book I knew was just a warm up. It was a really fun book to write, but it needed a lot of work and revision. So my second book I really took so seriously. I had so many beta readers, I really thought that I could find an agent with it. And I think I queried too early. So, you know, I learned a lot from that process. I queried a handful, maybe a dozen or so agents. I don't remember exactly. But yeah, I started writing Society of Lies while querying that second book.
- [06:40]
Carly Waters
Amazing. And then after you signed with your agent, how much time did you guys spend on rewrites before it went out to publishers? And then what did that look like? Because I'm hearing from so many writers now who are out on submission. They've got the agents, they trying to get, you know, a publisher to buy their book, and it's like silence for months on end. Was it like that for you or was it. As soon as it went out, there was a mad scramble. Everyone was like, I want this book for me.
- [07:07]
Cece Lira
We actually spent about a year revising the book and we changed it quite a bit. We added, you know, the younger sister Naomi. A lot changed. And then we went out to one editor, Hilary Tieman, at Valentine, and it was preempted. So it sold right away, basically.
- [07:27]
Carly Waters
That's a huge relief because I tell you, time in publishing is a completely different beast to time in any other part of your life. When you're waiting to hear from an agent or an editor, it feels like time slows down. So that's incredible. All right, so we're going to start with. There is a prologue. And anyone who listens to the podcast knows that we often are like, nope, take out the prologue. It's not working. This is an example of a prologue blog that works really, really well. So I'm gonna ask Lauren to read it to you. But before she reads it to you, I want to ask Lauren, was the prologue or is there. Was that one of the things that changed in the rewrites with your agent? Or is that something that came later with your editor?
- [08:08]
Cece Lira
Great question. I had a few different prologues with my agent, and then this is one that I wrote with my editor. It was her idea, my editor's idea, to have sort of a more vague prologue where we didn't know which sister was speaking. So, yeah, it changed a lot. And the ending and the beginning both changed several times.
- [08:29]
Carly Waters
Yeah. Rewrites, man. Okay, so can you read us that prologue, please?
- [08:34]
Cece Lira
Sure. Surrounded by wild looks and shuddering bodies, I dance. Everything is elevated, intense, like none of us want this night to end. The air hangs thick as smoke, floors sticky with champagne as heads tip back and arms rise overhead. To my right, strobe lights flash against 19th century doors, their glass panes fogged over. A handprint drips down the glass as a guy presses his state against a wall, her legs wrapped around his waist as they kiss. The place feels charged with electricity, excitement, maybe even fear, if they've been paying attention. Tonight is the night I've waited for my entire life. Our initiation into Sterling Club, Princeton's most prestigious eating club. It's not just a place to have fun, it's also a golden escalator to our future. Once inside, we're bound by our secrets, and that creates a deep bond. It feels dangerous, cult like. But isn't fun always a little bit reckless? Pulling my bra strap back on my shoulder, I step onto the patio and into the cool night air. Tonight feels endless, as if nothing matters but this moment, this feeling of belonging to something greater than myself. It's exactly what I need right now, after everything that's happened. Standing very still, I gaze up at the mansion with which, with its ivied brick and rows of glossy windows, seems to be staring back at me. I shiver. It feels alive, this place. Underneath the shouts and laughter, there's something dark lingering in the shadows. But I don't want to think about that. I'll skip ahead. Several hours later, I'm catching my breath on the upstairs terrace overlooking the back lawn. The late February air hangs cool and still, and it hasn't snowed in weeks. Maybe the worst is over. Exhaling a cloud of breath, I lean over the banister. I like watching people out here. New lovers sneaking off into dark corners, Young men sharing a bottle of whiskey. A guy kissing someone who is definitely not his girlfriend. I'M watching a girl stumble down the back steps when a shadow slides over me from behind. A hand touches the bare skin between my shoulder blades and I go still. When I turn around, the guy I saw watching me is there. Tall and confident, attractive. His lips curl into a cocky half grin. He leans closer, and when his hand touches my waist, I feel a current of electricity, my skin warming under his fingertips as if his touch could burn straight through me. He leans down to whisper in my ear, and what he says makes me freeze. You've been tapped for Greystone Society. I look at him, goosebumps rising over my skin. Greystone Society is so covert that most people at Princeton don't know they exist. But I've been fascinated by them for years. He looks at his watch. You have 30 seconds to decide if you want to accept the moment. I leave. The offer's done. So what do you think? Are you in? As the reality of his offer sinks in, I grow aware of the shakiness of my breath, the rush of blood in my ears. The exhilaration and fear in front of me is a door to another universe, another life. I imagine my mother saying from wherever she is now to take every strange adventure life presents, to experience the world, not shy away from it. But in spite of the pride I feel at having been chosen, there's another instinct telling me to run. I bury it, steel myself, and take his hand. I'm in. He smiles. Then come with me.
- [11:57]
Carly Waters
Amazing. Thank you so much for that. So, for our listeners, just look at how much heavy lifting this prologue did. As Lauren said, it's written in a way that you don't know which of the two main characters is in this moment because it's in first person. And remember, the novel goes backwards and forwards between Maya and Naomi, and we're going to discuss those timelines and the multiple POVs a little bit later. But we've got curiosity seeds. Things like after everything that happened, right? So that's a curiosity seed. And we're immediately like, ooh, what happened? We've got the sinister, dark, quiet quality to the night, these feelings of tension, and so much interiority and emotionality, which is incredible. You know, we are in the character's mind. We know what she's thinking, we know what she's feeling, we know that she's behaving in contradiction to what she's feeling, which makes it layered. We're curious to know what happens next. So this is the kind of prologue we're talking about where it's not putting a band aid on the wound of the first chapter and hoping that it will elevate it. What were those other prologues beforehand, Lauren? I'm. I'm curious to know.
- [13:08]
Cece Lira
Yes. So one of them was Naomi, the night that she died. Sort of running through the woods away from someone. And then, you know, in her perspective, as she passed away and as the person, you know, hurt her. But it was a bit too intense and a little bit too cliche because I think we've just seen that type of prologue a lot before. I tend to like prologues. I love just seeing, you know, a tease of something that's going to come later in the book. But I don't remember what the third one was at the moment. Some variation of that, probably.
- [13:46]
Carly Waters
I love a good prologue as well. I tried to write one for my latest novel and it was taken out by my editor. So it shows you how difficult they are. So if you're struggling with prologues, you aren't the only one. I apparently can't write a prologue for shit either. So there we are, we all on the same page. Okay, so something that I really want to break down here because what Lauren has done is extremely difficult and especially considering this is a debut. But it makes sense considering it's the third book she wrote. So we don't just have dual. Dual POVs in terms of Maya and in terms of Naomi, we have dual timelines as well in Maya's own narrative. So we have her narrative in 2023. Then we go back between 2010 and 2012 as she goes backwards and forwards with the past. And then we've got Naomi in 2022-2023 in the months and days leading up to her death. So a lot of different timelines that Lauren does, both of them in first person as well. And you pretty much have them being sisters from similar ish backgrounds. There are differences in their backgrounds and in their personalities, but more or less the same age experiencing the same thing at the same time. So can we speak a bit about that, Lauren, in terms of how you had to work to differentiate those voices and to make sure that the reader was constantly oriented in time and place and never confused about which character they were with?
- [15:18]
Cece Lira
Yeah, I think that's a big challenge. And if I had extra time, I would have differentiated them further because, you know, in my head, they were so distinct. And I tried to give Maya a slightly more naive voice. And I tried to make Naomi more outgoing and embrace her identity more. And I really wanted that to come through in the way that they spoke. I wanted Naomi to have surrounded herself by a more diverse group of friends. And so I wanted her to speak. Speak differently than Maya. So just thinking about their backgrounds and trying to make their voices sound a little bit different, I also wrote Maya's chapters by hand, first longhand. And I wrote Naomi's chapters quickly on my computer. So I tried to use those techniques to differentiate the voices.
- [16:11]
Carly Waters
It's important to really focus on that with this kind of book, you know, because, for example, my latest book that's coming out in June, I think I've got nine or 10 POV characters, one of which is a raccoon. But those are not difficult to differentiate because everybody in this magical family is so different. There's different ages, all very, very different. And it's not done in first person, it's done in third person. But when I wrote the Witches of Moonshine Manor, I had six witches who were all the same age living together in a manner. And so that was incredibly difficult to differentiate that. And I had some readers say, oh, I was confused as to which character I was with. At which point I thought, Lauren did an incredible job. Because I just looked at it and I was like, this is very challenging, especially for a debut. And I love hearing that you had these techniques, you know, because I think just sitting down and going, I really need to differentiate. It is not going to work. Whereas if you sit down and, like you say, one long hand, one chopping it out on the laptop, that changes your approach to each of them. Did you have, like, certain, I don't know, phrases that each of them like to use that you maybe had up on stickers or something where you were working just each time as you sat down to orientate yourself in the voice? Or did you go back and read previous chapters just so that you could hit the ground running already oriented in that voice?
- [17:31]
Cece Lira
Well, that's a great technique, and I haven't used that one. So I think for my next novel, I'm going to start using sticky notes with phrases. So thank you for that. But no, I went back. I'm someone who likes to reread my work quite a bit. So after every writing session, which normally happens in the morning, like 9 to noon break for lunch, and then in the afternoon and evening, I tend to read my work back. I send it to my Kindle and I read it back kind of quickly, looking for different things depending on the read. And so one pass that I did was going through the whole manuscript and trying to differentiate just Maya's voice and then just Naomi's voice.
- [18:12]
Carly Waters
So that's something for our listeners. If you are doing that kind of novel, pay attention to that. I've had, like I said, other writers gave me that technique and said that they had one page there was just one character's voice, and one page there was very clearly another character's voice. And as they sat down, they would read that one to really immerse themselves. I know that when I was doing the witches, one of the witches cursed a lot. The other one was much more prim and proper. She would never use curse words. One was very cerebral, informal in the way she spoke. The other one was much more chilled and relaxed. So make sure that each of these people's personalities is coming through, not only in word choice, but in the things they pay attention to in terms of their anxieties, their interiority, their thoughts. Are they obsessive? Do they tend to obsess over things? Are they more chill and go with the flow? So these are all things that you need to make come alive in those different POVs as well. What I loved about this book, Lauren, is there was a lot of social commentary. It's a psychological thriller, but from page one, we're already getting social commentary and we're getting a reflection on society, which I really loved. Was that something from the outset that you were like, you know, I'm writing this book that is entertaining, but I've also got something about the world that I want to say.
- [19:30]
Cece Lira
Yeah, I think it's really important to me. For me, my favorite books are the ones that dive below the surface level and either comment on how the writer or the characters see the world or, you know, make some kind of statement about humanity or relationship, sisterhood. And so it was important to me to not necessarily share my perspective, but to share the characters perspectives, especially as people, women of color and black and Chinese women, main characters, and to allow room for different perspectives from readers. So for each scene, I wanted there to be a variety of perspectives that someone could take, depending on what character's point of view you most identified with or your own background and experiences. Because right now in the world, I just see us as so divided and so entrenched in our own ideology and politics. And if we could just listen to each other and come a little bit closer together and realize, you know, we have more in common than we have different, I think it would really improve all of our lives.
- [20:45]
Carly Waters
Yeah, totally. And, you know, the social commentary wasn't just there in terms of. I am Lauren, the author. I've got some Things I'm going to say about the world, and I'm going to put it in there. There were instances where there was conflict around race or around something that was said that actually helped heighten the tension and move the plot along and help create new suspects as you thinking about who's responsible for what. So I think that's really important if you're going to be including that kind of social commentary as well, to not just have it be icing on the cake, but it's something that really helps with the forward motion of the plot and creating suspicion and tension.
- [21:25]
Cece Lira
Yeah, I totally agree. And one thing that I tried to do was to draw a lot from my personal experience, especially as a sister or as a black and Chinese daughter of an immigrant. Things that I knew very well and stories that were told to me either through my family or friends. And of course, I would ask their permission first if I were using something in the book. But things that I was very familiar with, I guess, drawing from personal experience.
- [21:54]
Carly Waters
I think there's a lot of intentionality as well that you brought to making the sisters backgrounds and upbringing so different. It wasn't just a case of, okay, they need to be 10 years apart, being in the same school, being in the same clubs, etc, because there were different ways that you could have showed their upbringings and how one sister was raised compared to how the other one was raised, etc. But you use that dynamic very much to create stakes for Maya in terms of a sense of responsibility for her sister that she otherwise wouldn't feel if their family dynamic had been set up a different way. Which then it raises the stakes. It makes us understand how responsible she feels when something happens to Naomi. So can we speak a bit about how you approach that? Because I think you said in the early version, Naomi wasn't there as a POV character. So at what point did she come in and what role specifically did you want her to play?
- [22:53]
Cece Lira
Yes. So while working with my agent first, and then my editor, we actually added Naomi's perspective and her voice. So she didn't have her own chapters. It was just Maya's past and present, the older sister. So when I added Naomi, I really started thinking about how she was so young when her parents died and she grew up with just Maya as a role model, as a mother figure. And Maya grew up being that provider and wanting to take care of her sister. So then I thought about the moral dilemma for Maya and how she was choosing between trying to support her sister and then basically selling her soul to join this secret Society that she knew was corrupt, that was one choice, or doing the right thing and, you know, trying to make it on her own, but risking not being able to support her sister. So that was the main conflict in Maya's head the entire time. And for Naomi, she was just trying to live her life. She wanted to travel, she wanted to have fun, she wanted to fall in love. She was just much more. Just living in the present a bit more and not so concerned about survival the way that Maya was. So I really tried to bring that forward in their personalities.
- [24:13]
Carly Waters
Yeah. And it served the plot as well. So for our listeners, things to keep in mind, you know, when you come up with characterization, you've got to think, how does this person's personality serve the plot? If they're impulsive and impetuous, how does that help move the narrative forward? How does their behavior manifest in. In X happening and then Y happening? And if there were a completely different personality, would the plot be able to unfold the same way? And then, of course, you've got to look at the character arc, who the character is at the beginning of the story compared to who they are at the end of the story, and how have they changed across that? So, you know, when we come up with character, it's more than just, you know, puppets we are manipulating through a story. They really need to have agency, which is so important and something you did so well as well, Lauren, was your opening chapter. You know, you didn't need that prologue because the opening chapter was so incredibly strong. You got so much into that opening chapter, and you gave us that surprise because as Cece always says on the podcast, you want to surprise readers. So we have Maya at the reunion. Her daughter's there. You know, she's thinking about reminiscing with her friends and her time here. And then the chapter ends with her being told that her sister has died. And that's like chapter one, and we are off to the races. We have inciting incidents, and boom. So was it always that fast paced? Or, again, was that something that tightened up with the writing?
- [25:44]
Cece Lira
Thank you. I love to plot, and I'm obsessed with plotting, and everything changes after I plot, but I just like the process of trying to figure out the story beats. And so I did have, I think, Naomi or whoever, because in the very first draft, it wasn't Naomi who passed away. It was a completely different character. But in this Naomi version, Maya did find out about her sister's death in the first chapter. And while writing this, I was sort of thinking about it. As a TV show and what I would want to see in sort of a pilot episode. And so I knew that I wanted to introduce the conflict right away to show Maya both as a good mother to her five year old daughter Dani, and also as someone who cared deeply about her sister but had some conflict with her sister. So they had some misunderstandings that they were still working through. And the chapter ends with a phone call where Maya learns that her sister has died.
- [26:46]
Carly Waters
Yeah, so that's your inciting incident in chapter one. So we often get this question on the podcast, you know, can I have an exciting incident by page 50? No, as early as possible. And then the key event, which is a point of no return, needs to happen quite soon after that as well, especially in this kind of genre. So, last few questions, Lauren. One, being somebody who went to Princeton and who's basing this novel in Princeton and is talking about the secret sort of societies and the eating clubs and the bickering, etc. Etc. Have most people who've gone to Princeton, did they find this amusing? Was anybody upset and felt like you've betrayed them?
- [27:25]
Cece Lira
I've had so many supportive comments of both friends and faculty reaching out and saying how much they enjoyed it. I think the readers who understand my intention and read the author's note at the end, especially where I explain this, it's not a reflection of Princeton at all or my time there. The secret society Greystone is completely fictionalized and you know, it's thriller, it's genre. So yeah, everyone has been very supportive. So I've really appreciated that.
- [27:57]
Carly Waters
You know, you could have made it a fictitious university or whatever, you could have given it another name. But there was something by making it Princeton that was incredible and reading it, you're like, oh, this is someone that went there because you know that they went there because of the specificity and the details, which just adds a whole other level of juiciness, which was incredible. Can you speak a bit about the Reese's Book Club pick, especially as a debut? I think I've spoken to quite a few authors who are like, it's a double edged sword. One, the success is amazing and it helps launch your career. But then two, it makes you so nervous for the sophomore novel that's going to follow. Has this been something you've been able to just navigate seamlessly or. Or has it been something where you've been like, oh, a lot of success up front?
- [28:43]
Cece Lira
You know, being in Reese's Book Club has just been a dream, like a far away dream that I really never thought was going to happen, especially not with my debut. So I thought, okay, let's hope for it, let's pray for it. But if it doesn't happen, you know, maybe my 10th book could possibly be in Reese's Book Club. So when it did happen, I was just so excited and I still am so over the moon that she selected Society of Lies, that I'm just really grateful and embracing this whirlwind of opportunity as it comes along. And I just, you know, I'm so happy about all of this and just so grateful that I can write every day and have this as my job that I try not to think about the pressure. I think the pressure comes more from readers like reading Goodreads reviews and that kind of thing, which I really try not to.
- [29:40]
Carly Waters
You know what we say don't do it, but we do it. And I don't know all this. I think we're masochistic that way, right? We're just like, don't do it, but we do it.
- [29:49]
Cece Lira
Exactly. I don't know what is wrong with me, but I can't not read them. Sometimes if I'm on the site, I just need to block it. But no, the pressure, you know, I try to ignore it when I'm writing, especially when I'm drafting and just have fun, fun and be creative with it. Because having some joy in the process, I think comes through in the work. And it's that childlike joy that I've had since I was a kid. When you first found that novel that you fell in love with, that I want to embrace and continue to live life with.
- [30:24]
Carly Waters
It was such a pleasure chatting with you. So for our listeners, if you're watching on YouTube, I'm holding up the book again. Society of Lies. Awesome, awesome cover. Lauren Ling Brown. We're going to link to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page. If you get the book there, you support an independent bookstore and you support the podcast at the same time. Lauren, we can't wait to see what you come up with next.
- [30:45]
Cece Lira
Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure to talk with you.
- [30:50]
Carly Waters
So you've started your story with everything that you meant to. Strong curiosity seeds, an element of surprise, a strong main character who the reader connects with, context, conflict and tension. But you're still getting these soul crushing responses from agents. I didn't connect with the story the way I wanted to. The premise was intriguing, but this ultimately wasn't for me. I'm not the right agent for this project. Let me know if you're working on something else, which is so incredibly frustrating because you check their manuscript wish list and this is exactly what they said they wanted. They've asked for the full so you know the premise intrigued them. If you did everything right, why didn't they love it? You have a killer hook. So what's not working? Circling the building of your work can help diagnose the problem. Perhaps there's another main character just waiting in the wings, desperate for their big break. Have you truly found the beating heart of the story, or is its pulse weak? Have you been looking at it through the wrong end of a telescope all this time? Sometimes all you need is a change of perspective to realize that you've chosen one way to tell your story. But there are infinite ways and hot damn. The fix might have been staring you in the face all this time, but you just couldn't see it. I feel your pain. I know your frustration because I've been there and I'm going to take your hand and lead you through my entire process of circling the building so you can learn how to diagnose your own work. The webinar is happening on the 13th of May from 7 to 10pm Eastern Time. Go to my website biancamarae.com find the courses tab to book your spot this.
- [32:25]
Cece Lira
Weekend we were at a birthday party and our francophone friend asked my son a question in French and he was able to converse with her. This felt like a huge parenting milestone. Immersion education for the win, but a bit of a womp womp on my part because I only learned English as a kid and I'm still getting my French up to conversation level. I'm always looking for the best tools that I can keep up with my friends and my kids in their French speaking. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app and it truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. A trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. That's Spanish, French, Italian, German, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, Arabic, Polish. So many more with that fast language acquisition. Rosetta Stone immerses you in so many ways. There's no English translations. You can really speak, listen and think in that language. It's an intuitive process. You pick up a language naturally, first with words, then phrases, then sentences. There's the speech recognition. The built in True Accent feature gives you feedback on your pronunciation. It's like having a personal trainer for your accent. It's convenient, flexible learning anytime on the go on the app or on the desktop and it has amazing value. Lifetime membership for 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. That's lifetime access to all 25 language courses on Rosetta Stone for 50% off. That's a steal. Don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential now. The shit about writing. Listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com today to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to Rosetta Stone.com today and start learning now.
- [34:12]
Carly Waters
Hi everyone. Welcome to our April comps segment with our wonderful guest Emily Summer from East City Bookshop. Emily, welcome.
- [34:20]
Bianca Murray
Thank you Bianca. Glad to be here.
- [34:22]
Carly Waters
Always lovely getting to chat to you. Now, for our listeners, please pay attention. Next month, May will be our last comps segment until the fall. We need to give poor Emily some time off over the summer to recover from us, so she's going to have some time off. So if you have been thinking about whether or not to get in a request, now is the time to do it. We will be recording very early in May to work around both of our busy schedules. So in order to make sure that yours will be included, please make sure you record by the 7th of May. Okay, 7th of May, that's the cutoff. After that, we'll only be coming back to this in the fall. And if you don't hear your request today, it's because you got it in too late and we will tackle it in May. Okay, Emily, will you kick us off with the first one? Here it is.
- [35:10]
Bianca Murray
Hello Bianca and Emily. I'd like comms for my coming of age YA contemporary fantasy with elements of found family. Tara is a teen shapeshifter pretending to.
- [35:21]
Carly Waters
Be a goblin on the London Underground.
- [35:23]
Bianca Murray
When a half dragon child materializes at work, Tara enrages her vampire employer by.
- [35:28]
Cece Lira
Spiriting the girl away to safety.
- [35:30]
Bianca Murray
Uja is a 12 year old Demi.
- [35:32]
Carly Waters
Cod from Mumbai on a quest to.
- [35:34]
Bianca Murray
Find her mother in New York City, unaware of her true potential or the danger she's in.
- [35:39]
Carly Waters
On their trip to New York, Tara's identity is revealed.
- [35:43]
Bianca Murray
But unfortunately, shapeshifters are at the bottom.
- [35:45]
Carly Waters
Of the magical beast hierarchy.
- [35:47]
Bianca Murray
Meanwhile, Urja is keeping her own identity a secret. Pursued by vampires, they reach New York.
- [35:53]
Cece Lira
Where all is not as it seems.
- [35:55]
Bianca Murray
Urja has grown dear to Tara and.
- [35:57]
Carly Waters
Is about to have her life ruined by unscrupulous adults.
- [36:00]
Cece Lira
Precisely what happened to Tara to save.
- [36:03]
Bianca Murray
Urja Tara must challenge social hierarchy. It's similar in plot to Hannah Kaner's Godkiller, but YA and fun. So I know that Godkiller is adult and not ya, but I like your mention of it and I think saying God killer but YA and fun is a great tagline that tells me what I'm getting. And that also gave me a great place to go for looking for specific YA comps. The first thing I thought of it's big, but I don't think most YA is too big to comp unless it's, you know, the Hunger Games, which is of course too old. Anyway, so what I thought of is the Great Legend Born by the Great Tracy Deonna. Some of the best YA contemporary fantasy out there. We are huge Tracy fans at East City Bookshop. I think it's got some God Killer vibes. It definitely is about presenting a challenge to societal hierarchies, claiming your power and just that challenge against the powers that be. And a smaller book, but I think that would still be a very good comp would be Raybearer by Jordan Fueco I F U E K O and I thought of that one because if someone came into the store and said I loved God Killer and I loved Legend Born, that series, I would immediately put Raybearer in their hands. So I think that's another possibility that'll get us to the same place, same readership. So I think it'll work.
- [37:26]
Carly Waters
Amazing. Thank you. Okay, here's the next one. Hi Emily, thank you so much for your health. In obedience, Quinn travels with her mother in law legaya to the Philippines to infer her father in law's cremains within 40 days after his death. Legaia barely tolerates Quinn's presence and certainly doesn't want her input when planning the funeral. But only Quinn knows Carlo's last wishes, which infuriates legaia and sends Quinn into a tailspin. She repeatedly makes a fool of herself and reveals her own cultural biases. Meanwhile, legaia can no longer stifle the memories of her forbidden love, her dear friend's unsolved murder, and eventually her own arranged marriage. To find peace, legaia must face her role in those events and realize she's.
- [38:06]
Bianca Murray
Not the only one who sacrificed, and.
- [38:08]
Carly Waters
Quinn must prove that she's worthy of legaia's acceptance or potentially ruin her marriage. I'm thinking of Alice McDermott's absolution for the White Woman in the Southeast Asian country and Lady Tan's Circle of Women for the Mother in Law and daughter in law relationship. I need a comp for the woman returning home to face the ghosts of her past.
- [38:27]
Bianca Murray
Okay. Again, I love it. I love it when you all do my work for me and give some comps that you're thinking of. I do think that absolution by Alice McDermott. I would be a little bit careful with that one just because when I hear that, when I think of one, the historical nature of it, it's very much specifically a Vietnam novel and specifically about the American presence in Vietnam. And the tone is so literary and the writing is just so interior and literary. But I love where you're going with these. The first thing I thought of is what Could Be Saved by Lee's Halloran Schwartz and I think that that's a possible comp that you mentioned like for a woman returning home to face the ghost of her past. So the plot is not that similar in what Could Be Saved. There is a decades old missing person case in this family and but the family and the time periods are split between China when the disappearance occurred, the present day in dc. But it has a lot of the similar the questions of family, questions of cultural biases, unsolved crimes. I think the complicated nature of the questions might work and that could be a good one about facing the ghosts of your past. For other books about identity, family bonds, secrets and cross cultures, I thought of two forthcoming books that I want to put on everybody's radar. I have not read them yet but they seem like they could fit and they are both supposed to be wonderful. So they are on my own TBR list and I want them to be on everybody else's. The first is the original Daughter by Jemima Way and the second is My Other Heart by Emma Nanami Strenor. Both of these are supposed to be so good, they sound fantastic. I expect them both to make a splash and I want everybody to be on the lookout for them.
- [40:16]
Carly Waters
Thank you. Okay, here is our next one.
- [40:19]
Bianca Murray
I'm seeking comps for my contemporary fiction novel the Last Laugh. This story is told through three Melody, a sitcom writer and stand up comedian in la Jake, her reserved and highly principled therapist husband, and Sawyer, a talk show host haunted by her past who's a new client of Jake's. After too many drinks on a rare weekend away to celebrate their anniversary, Jake divulges a high stakes secret about Sawyer that winds up in Melody's stand up routine igniting a chain of life altering consequences for all three of them. The Last Laugh examines the power of humor to wound and to heal the elusive grasp of fame and whether our secrets hold more power when they're buried or exposed for all to see. Comps I'm considering for the comedy angle include romantic Comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld, Most Wonderful by Georgia Clarke, and Humor Me by Kat Schuck. I really need help with comps for other elements of the novel, such as long buried secrets and navigating the trauma around them, life in the spotlight, marriage in crisis, and quirky Found Family New beginnings after Blowing up one's life. Thank you so much for your help. Okay, this one sounds right up my alley because I am an immediate green light for anything that is pop culture related, especially when it's like maybe people screwing up a little bit and making some mistakes. So I love the romantic comedy Most Wonderful and Humor Me suggestions. My immediate first thought was not a book, but it was Hacks, the TV show, which I love, which is high praise. I have TV on the brain and Hacks on the Brain because there's been so much good new TV lately. Specifically for books that might deal with the other things that you're doing here. Blowing up one's life, found family afterward, life in the spotlight in a creative industry, a marriage in crisis. I thought too about Colored Television by Dan Z. Senna for the LA Vibes. The work in a creative industry, writing some marital strife, kind of messing up and trying to figure out how to get out of these issues. Colored television is very concerned with race specifically, but it reads like an LA family drama, so I think that that one could work. And it's also wonderful. So if you haven't read it, check it out. And then one that I am sure I have mentioned in the past because I love it so much is for and this is for your mention of found family after blowing up one's life. And that is one of my favorites, the People We Keep by Allison Larkin. So I would look at that one and see if the tone matches or if there's some hope and some found family and what we do after we think we've come to an end.
- [42:47]
Carly Waters
Awesome. Okay, here's our next one.
- [42:50]
Cece Lira
Hello, I would love some help with comps.
- [42:52]
Carly Waters
Please. Here's the log line for my book.
- [42:55]
Cece Lira
A year after a dead body is.
- [42:56]
Carly Waters
Found in the trunk of one of.
- [42:57]
Cece Lira
Their cars, three very different women agree.
- [42:59]
Carly Waters
To be guests on a true Crime podcast both to maintain their innocence and to attempt to control which of their secrets will ultimately be revealed. This is a multiple POV dual timeline psychological suspense that follows the women in the present as they revisit the unsolved murder on the podcast and then goes back to follow them in the past as they reveal what was going on in their lives a year ago when the body was found. Timelines are separated by social media and blog posts by the folks who are following along with the podcast, trying to unravel the crime.
- [43:27]
Cece Lira
My first instinct was to comp Big.
- [43:29]
Carly Waters
Little Lies as the story is more about the women, their struggles and their friendships than the murder itself, but obviously.
- [43:34]
Cece Lira
I can't use that. I was also thinking of the Whisper Network, but it doesn't really have that.
- [43:38]
Carly Waters
Vengeful vibe throughout, although it does eventually get there. As a final note, the story does contain sensitive topics such as abortion and abuse.
- [43:46]
Cece Lira
Thanks so much for your help.
- [43:47]
Carly Waters
I love everything you do to help out as struggling authors.
- [43:50]
Bianca Murray
Okay, I totally see where you're going with Big Little Lies and the Whisper Network. I think you're right, Big Little Lies is too big. And I think you're right that the Whisper Network conjures up the vengeful tone. So instead I would suggest, also by Chandler Baker, the book the Husbands, because I think the husbands gives that same Big Little Lies messy, complicated friendship drama in a community. So it's not as big as Big Little Lies, but it too is about a community of women, their relationships with each other, their secrets. There's a central mystery, so it'll capture all of those aspects by the same author of Whisper Network, but it doesn't have that corporate revenge angle, so I think that one could be a really good one. Another one I thought of is All Good People Here by Ashley Flowers, which I loved. I know I've mentioned her book the Missing Half before, but All Good People Here was her first book, and I thought of that one because it has an excellent true crime podcast angle. So there are a lot of good true crime podcast mysteries out there, but that one just happens to be one of my favorites.
- [44:53]
Carly Waters
Thank you very much. Okay, here we go. Hi Bianca and Emily. I called in last year seeking comps for Church Ladies, my multi POV book club fiction that's saucy, sassy, and filled with Southern lady wit. The comp you suggested, the Secret life of Church Ladies, is brilliant, but not right. My book is more steel magnolia circa 2025, which is much too big and too old for tone. There's the book club movie franchise angle and Netflix's Grace and Frankie. The lit comp I've relied on for POV is Claire Pooley's how to Age Disgracefully. I'm looking for a Southern author like Lee Smith who wrote the Last Girls. Also too old to peg my manuscript. When a new priest moves to town, his presence forces the church ladies to face secrets they've been keeping. Each has a history with the reverend that's not at all holy. A secret baby, a vibrator affair, a lost love and an ill bladed one night stand. What's a church lady to do? I'd love a second look.
- [45:55]
Bianca Murray
Thank you for calling in again. Sometimes I am not able to think of anything extra after my first time. And I will also say that I think that how to age disgracefully plus steel magnolias in 2025. That sounds like a great pitch to me. But since you're specifically asking for Southern authors, maybe like Lee Smith, I'll throw out a few suggestions who might work. I thought about Patti Callahan, Henry, maybe Mary Kay Andrews and maybe Christy Woodson Harvey. I would look at their work and see if anything that they've written fit if they have the right tone. But really I think how to Age disgracefully and a 2025 steel magnolias. That would get it for me.
- [46:35]
Carly Waters
Perfect. Okay, here's our next one. Hi Emily.
- [46:39]
Bianca Murray
I'm searching for comps for my adult science fantasy novel. Joe Bautista is a foreign correspondent, not in another country, but on another planet.
- [46:46]
Carly Waters
Humans have colonized.
- [46:48]
Bianca Murray
We've brutally subjugated the winged race of people native to the planet. Surprise, surprise. And journalists are banned from covering the war unless they're embedded with the military. That plus AI propaganda imagery means it's impossible to know what's really happening. But when her journalist best friend vanishes on an embedding, a charming stranger offers Jo the way in she's been seeking. Desperate to find her friend and expose the truth about humanity's misdeeds, she must navigate a territory full of insurgents, risking death or worse, deportation back to Earth. Weirdly, the best references I can think.
- [47:21]
Carly Waters
To give you are a memoir and a movie. Think the dark humor and grit of.
- [47:25]
Bianca Murray
The Taliban shuffle meets Avatar with its first contact struggle on a fantastical world as our own planet burns. It's a dystopian romp with a swashbuckling love story.
- [47:34]
Carly Waters
A Simantasy.
- [47:36]
Bianca Murray
Thank you. Okay, in listening to your description, one, I was struck that this feels incredibly timely. And two, my head immediately went to the sci fi books that we sell frequently in the bookstore that do deal with imperialist and authoritarian regimes. So three of our favorite in that realm where we're talking about colonization and resistance and insurgencies. Ancillary justice by Ann Leckie So that book is old. I think it's from 2013 2014, but the series has continued and I don't think that she as an author is too big to comp the Red Rising series by Pierce Brown. Again, both of those series are dystopian science fiction concerned with resistance and A Memory Called Empire by Arkady Martine. So I think any of these that are talking about an imperialist power structure and struggling within it and against it that those might work and resonate.
- [48:40]
Carly Waters
Wonderful. Okay, here's our second last one.
- [48:44]
Bianca Murray
Hi, I'm Beth Cole and I'm looking for comp titles for my cozy mystery. Krista Davis's Paws and Claws cozies are the closest I've have come. My book is set in a small Blue Ridge Mountains small town. My accent probably is giving that away.
- [48:59]
Cece Lira
My main character enters the pet show.
- [49:01]
Bianca Murray
With her corgi, Hamlin after her best friend urges her to get on with her life. Weeks after her boyfriend dumps her on her 40th birthday at this local small town pet show. She meets some new pet loving friends there, but Hamlin stumbles over the local town matriarch body after the show. My book is about small town life, pets, humor, a little bit of cooking and tea making. It also features a weirdly cute slow burn romance. That part's been especially fun to write. I'm unsure on how like comp titles should be. Okay, this sounds adorable. I love the Corgi named Hamlin. It's enough to make me want to read a cozy mystery. And I am on the other side of the spectrum. I read the dark, grim, gritty bad stuff. But maybe, maybe in this day and age, maybe in 2025, I need to read about small town pet shows and more pleasant things. Spencer Quinn has a cozy dog mystery series that could be pretty similar to the Paws and Claws. But really, I would say there are so many wonderful cozies out there. I would look up some specific publishers if you haven't already. You probably have. But I would look at the cozies that Kensington publishes and that Crooked Lane publishes and I would just look for pet cozies or small town cozies and see which ones jump out at you. Because there are a lot of great ones. I think Paws and Claws, you're already there. I would add Spencer Quinn, but otherwise I would just dig around with some of the cozy publishers and see what strikes your fancy.
- [50:32]
Carly Waters
Yeah, I mean I was in an Indigo bookstore recently in Toronto and there was just one huge shelf that was just these kinds of cozies. So also like going to bookstores and find your cozy mystery show.
- [50:46]
Bianca Murray
Yes, thank you, Bianca. It shouldn't take the podcast host to tell the indie bookseller to tell people to go to bookstores. Go to bookstores, please. We love it when you come into the bookstore.
- [50:57]
Carly Waters
Well, yeah, so long as you don't leave empty handed. People don't go in and be like, okay, I'm gonna buy it on Amazon. We don't do that.
- [51:03]
Bianca Murray
We don't do that. Okay, that's that showcasing we cannot do.
- [51:07]
Carly Waters
Here's our last one.
- [51:09]
Bianca Murray
Hi Emily. I'm looking for comps for my 80,000 enemies to lovers.
- [51:14]
Carly Waters
Suspenseful romance with slow burn, but then very high spice.
- [51:18]
Cece Lira
The blurb is when a gay famous.
- [51:20]
Bianca Murray
Mountain is plagued by unexplainable attacks.
- [51:23]
Carly Waters
An ambitious tourist and the salt of.
- [51:25]
Bianca Murray
The earth local must grapple with their differences and volcanic chemistry before the killer shakes the mountain to its core.
- [51:32]
Cece Lira
So I thought about Greta and Valden.
- [51:35]
Bianca Murray
For the humor blended with grief as well as the messy, flawed relationships. Though I'm worried it might skew a little bit young. Young as my characters are older, in their mid late 30s. I also have the TV series Deadlock for the eccentric small town vibes.
- [51:48]
Cece Lira
But I'm struggling to find another book.
- [51:50]
Bianca Murray
Comp, especially one that might reference the Enemies to lovers dynamic, the different political perspectives and the city versus country backgrounds.
- [51:58]
Cece Lira
There's also a past connection between the.
- [52:00]
Carly Waters
Protagonists as well as a non binary.
- [52:02]
Cece Lira
Main character for which I thought about.
- [52:03]
Bianca Murray
The pairing by Casey McQuiston. But I'm not sure if they're too famous to compare.
- [52:07]
Cece Lira
Thank you so much for all your help.
- [52:10]
Bianca Murray
Okay. There's so much going on here, but you've already got a couple of the aspects covered, I would say for Greta and Valden for the humor blended with grief. I don't necessarily think it's too young because I think when people are thinking of that, I don't know that they're thinking of the age of the characters. I'm in my late 40s now and I don't know, mid-20s and mid-30s. It feels the same to me. So I don't think that that one skews so young that you couldn't use it. It's possible that Casey McQuiston is too big, too famous to comp. But I like all the things that you're suggesting for Enemies to Lovers. My two favorites or two favorites that we have in the store. And if you did, if someone does come in E City Bookshop, we've got all kinds of romance experts who can give you just oodles of enemies to lovers favorites. But two that I thought of immediately are Sally Thorne's the Hating Game and Christina Lauren's the Unhoneymooners. Those are just great enemies to lovers examples. I'm thrown a little bit since this is suspenseful. So maybe see if Jane Ann Krentz she writes some suspenseful romances. I would be surprised if some of those weren't also enemies to lovers and so they might fit with tone better. But if you're just looking to capture that aspect of the story, I think Sally Thorne and Christina Lauren are great ones to to consider. And that's it today.
- [53:30]
Carly Waters
Thank you so much Emily. As always, we really appreciate it. Again, for our listeners, remember, May is the last one we're doing until the fall, so get in all of your queries and get them in super fast. Thank you so much Emily. We look forward to chatting again next month.
- [53:45]
Bianca Murray
Thank you Bianca. And thank you for everybody who calls in and listens.
- [53:49]
Carly Waters
And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.
- [54:02]
Cece Lira
Hi everyone, it's Cece here. If you're a fan of the podcast.
- [54:07]
Bianca Murray
Then you know that one of my.
- [54:09]
Cece Lira
Most common notes on the Books With Hooks segment is about writing emotion. And that's because the best stories are.
- [54:16]
Carly Waters
The ones that make readers feel.
- [54:18]
Cece Lira
But as a storyteller, you know that pulling that off is hard work. It involves not only the obvious skill.
- [54:25]
Carly Waters
Of writing emotion really well, but also.
- [54:28]
Cece Lira
Mastering writing relationships effectively.
- [54:31]
Carly Waters
Since those emotional beats involve the protagonist's relational connections.
- [54:36]
Cece Lira
The best stories are also relationship driven. That's why I'm so excited to announce that I'm teaching a four day class called Writing Emotion and Relationships starting on June 18th. Over the course of four days, we'll cover over 10 hours of content, including active versus passive emotions, how to leverage emotions and relationships into tension, showing versus telling, how to create chemistry between characters, emotional calibration and roles for various characters from love interest to antagonist, and so much more. And my favorite thing this this course will feature an interactive component. Everyone who signs up will have the.
- [55:18]
Carly Waters
Option of submitting a scene from their.
- [55:20]
Cece Lira
Work for a chance to have it critiqued during the course. We did this in my Starting It Right class in March and if you were there, you know it was a smashing success. If you'd like to know more, check.
- [55:33]
Carly Waters
Out the link in my bio on Instagram.
- [55:36]
Cece Lira
I hope to see you there. Come prepared to take lots of notes.