← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Bianca and CeCe Discuss The Real Sh*t No One Tells You About Writing
00:36:15
Author Interview with Bianca Marais
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- [00:00]
Cece Lira
Hello listeners, this is cece. I am so excited to announce my next course, Writing Emotion and Relationships, an all new mashup of two of my most popular classes revamped with fresh content starting on June 19th. This is going to be a four day event, so come prepared to take lots of notes. We'll cover active versus passive emotions, how to effectively show versus tell most common mistakes in writing, emotions and relationships, and obviously how to get it right, types of relationships and how to leverage each one in a story, emotional and relational makeups and arcs for protagonists and other characters, how to create chemistry between characters, different genre expectations, and so much more. Oh, and did I mention there's an interactive component? That's right. Everyone who is registered will have the option of sending an excerpt of their work for a chance to have it critiqued live during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend. There are limited spots though, so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend one or more sessions live. The recording will be sent to everyone who's registered 24 hours after each class. Once again, this is a four day class, Writing Emotion and Relationships beginning on June 19th. For for more details, check out the link on my Instagram bio or head over to the podcast's website. I hope to see you there.
- [01:45]
Bianca Marais
Hi there and welcome to our show, the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. I'm Bianca Marais and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency.
- [01:58]
Carly Waters
Hello everyone. Welcome to a very, very, very special episode of the Shit no one Tells you About Writing podcast. We are interviewing our very own Bianca Murray. This is going to be really weird, but I'm going to read you Bianca's bio just in case you guys don't know who Bianca is. Bianca Murray co hosts the popular podcast the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. Wonder if anyone's heard of that, which is aimed at helping emerging writers get published. She teaches creative writing through the podcast and was named a winner of the Excellence in Teaching Award for Creative Writing at the University of Toronto's School of Continuing Studies. She lives in Toronto, where she loves playing escape room games and writing about strong female protagonists. She is also the author of fabulous novels that I hope you have all read and the upcoming A Most Puzzling Murder. Get very excited because today I'm going to ask Bianca all sorts of questions about this book. And of course it's extra special for me because not only is Bianca my partner on this podcast, that she founded, and she came up with the idea all by herself, but she's also my client, so I am honored to welcome that super weird Bianca.
- [03:17]
Bianca Marais
Cece, what a joy to speak to you. I can't imagine being interviewed by anybody else.
- [03:22]
Carly Waters
Hear that, everyone else. I'm her favorite interviewer.
- [03:25]
Bianca Marais
Ha.
- [03:28]
Carly Waters
Okay, so I want to begin with a question that I have not prepared for, but I'm sure you will be prepared to answer. So on October 4, 2022, I get this email from Bianca. And the email reads, hi, Cece, I'm sending you chapter one to see if you think I'm starting in a good place. Let me know once you get the chance to look at it. No rush at all. Be that's the email, guys. That's the email she sent to me. And so what followed was my favorite opening scene ever. So Bianca is great like that, right? She sends me early work, but it's so compelling and polished that it feels like reading a published novel. And it's the number one reason why I love working with her. Her talent. But what she didn't tell me in this email, you will notice she was very sneaky, guys. Very sneaky. It was a totally new genre. But then even as I'm saying this, I'm like, did she know it was a new genre? Was she even aware? I don't know. Let's ask her, shall we? Be did you know you were writing in a new genre? Can you please talk about pivoting genres?
- [04:26]
Bianca Marais
Yes, I 100% knew I was writing in a new genre. I didn't want to put it in the email to freak you out, because I feel like I stress you out way more than any agent should ever be stressed out by their clients. I'm like, I'm writing historical fiction. I'm writing literary fiction. I'm writing up market fiction. I'm writing about. About witches. Oh, and by the way, this is now a murder mystery with magical people. So I thought, you know, I wouldn't give you much preamble. I would just let you sink into it and decide whether you liked it or not, regardless of what the genre was. Because I know you are such a brilliant agent that if the book was good, you would be able to sell it regardless of what the genre was. So for me, I don't know if it's that I get very bored very quickly or if it's that. That I love challenging myself. I will say that after my first two novels, which were book club fiction, my pivot to the Witches of Moonshine Manor was a very intentional shift into a genre that was doing quite well at that time. My second book had not sold well at all. And as we always say on the podcast, you're only as good as your last book. And that's what editors look at sales figures. So I couldn't come in with something similar, having bad sales track record on that. So I pivoted for that. And then this one, I wanted to challenge myself to do something completely different and pants a closed room murder mystery to see if it was possible. And what you saw there was the opening chapters of that.
- [06:03]
Carly Waters
You knew it. Okay. Okay. That was smart. If anyone else is thinking of doing that to their agent, follow Bianca's lead. Do not write that in the email. Let it come out organically. It's a better story, plus it doesn't freak people up. Okay, so I want to come back to the whole pantsing versus plotting thing later, but for now, I do want to ask, since we're talking about that great beginning that you sent me, which is now different, right? Like, people will not read that beginning when they read the book. Now, in true Bianca fashion, you circled the building. To use your great analogy, at one point, there was also a prologue. So tell us about writing this beginning, the various iterations. Tell us what happened to that prologue, since our listeners know how prologues can be controversial. Really want to hear about that?
- [06:45]
Bianca Marais
Yeah. So for me, I always begin with a vision of something. I will see a scene. I will see a person. I will see somebody holding an object. It'll feel very, very mystical. I don't know who they are yet. I don't know where they are. I don't know why they're there. But I feel like I always have to rush in and capture that scene and follow that character to see where they taking me. And nine times out of 10, that is not the beginning of the story. Every time I write what I think is the opener, it ends up moving far forward or far backwards or sometimes it gets taken out completely. So with that, we had our main protagonist, Destiny Whip, who is on Eerie Island. It is storming lightning and thunder, and it's creepy as all hell. And she is trying to navigate this island because she got a letter inviting her here to kind of solve the mystery of her life. Her whole life, she's wanted to know who she is, where she belongs, and so she's here. And that's how we began, right in the middle of the action. And then I realized I probably started too far forward. We needed to go back in Time to when she gets the letter so that we can understand what's at stake for her, what she wants, and all the rest of it. And then, because on the podcast, we always saying, don't write prologues. Prologues are so difficult. I was like, I am going to write the best prologue and prove that prologues are easy. And this prologue will be in my book. And I'll be like, if you want to see a good prologue, go to my book. And then, of course, I wrote the prologue. I think you liked it. By the time it got to my editor, Nicole Brebner, she was like, nope, we've got to nix the prologue. Because in the prologue, I started with my main character when she was 8 years old, on the day all the bad things happened to her. And again, this is something we say on the podcast. If you have an adult protagonist throughout the book and you begin with the child protagonist, it's confusing to the reader. They're like, is this why a. What is happening here? So that prologue then got moved to chapter 18 as a flashback, and then it got taken out of the book entirely, and now it's a bonus scene that the reader can email the main character for and get. So it's still kind of there, hanging in, but certainly not a prologue.
- [09:10]
Carly Waters
It's in prologue limbo. I liked the prologue, I have to say. Like, I totally love this beginning, too. One thing that I find to be empowering and refreshing, but can also be daunting is that there isn't one right place to start a story. There are various right places you can think of your favorite novel to anyone listening. Yeah, you might love that beginning, but there could also be an equally compelling beginning the author didn't choose, Right? Like, there's. There's more than one way way to do it. And that should feel empowering to you guys listening as writers. So, okay, I have so many questions. I want to talk about curiosity seeds before we get to the pantsing question and also the emailing question, because now I have so many questions. So curiosity seeds, they're super important for the beginning of a novel especially, but also for the rest of the novel. And a big challenge is knowing which one to water when so they don't all bloom at the same time. How do you figure that out? Is it intuitive for you because you're a pantser, right? Like, but is. Is that part pantsing, too? How do you do it? Do you have a system?
- [10:12]
Bianca Marais
Again? So when it comes to that opening scene, like, here, I saw destiny on this island, and I knew that she had a very lonely upbringing. I knew that she had been orphaned more than once. I knew that she refers to herself as a lone pelican in a flamboyance of flamingos. She just is one of those sort of outcasts. She doesn't feel like she fits in. She was a child prodigy. So when she was super young, when she was like, 12, she was already in university, not fitting in there, etc. Etc. So this is what I knew about her. And I knew that she was walking into a den of vipers on this island, and that there were going to be awful people in wait for someone who was so pure of heart and just so sweet and kind, and that this was going to be difficult for her. But that's all I knew. So for me, cece, Curiosity Seeds is when a character tells me something like, my character carries an emotional support urn around. Do not ask me where that came from. I have no idea. She arrived and she was clutching this urn, and I was like, lady, what the hell is in that bag thing? What is in that thing you clutching? And she was like, it's ashes. It's my emotional support urn because my life is so difficult that I can't. An emotional support animal. And then I was curious. I was like, well, okay, who are you carrying around in there? So I just left it there and didn't figure it out and just carried on writing. And then she would refer to something else that intrigued me, and I was like, well, that's very interesting. We're going to have to come back to that. And so, for me, when I write Curiosity Seeds, it's like I have a tuning fork, and I'm listening to the character who is trusting me slowly but surely enough to tell me their story. And when you think of when you meet someone, even if you hit it off straight away, you're not going to tell everybody, this person, absolutely everything about yourself. You're going to, you know, hint at things and drop hints about things, and that is how character always is for me. So I don't know their backstory. I don't know all the exposition and all the setup, which I think allows me to drop the curiosity seeds in a way that makes me curious because I don't know the answers and hopefully in a way that makes the readers curious as well.
- [12:39]
Carly Waters
It honestly sounds so magical. It sounds like your characters are talking to you, and it just, you know, this is why it's so important to think and to allow yourself to be in your thoughts and to really, really allow a story to grow organically. It sounds. It sounds amazing. I think everyone listening wants to live inside your brain. I know I do. Okay, so speaking of living inside your brain, challenges in this novel.
- [13:03]
Bianca Marais
It's a crowded place. I just want to say my brain is a crowded place. So if you are claustrophobic, do not come and try and live in it.
- [13:13]
Carly Waters
Let's all apply for visas to go into Bianca's brain. It'll be really funny and chaotic, apparently. Okay, so I'm trying to think of, like, because, you know, the whole point of the podcast is to support emerging writers and through stories of this is how someone else did it, to hopefully inspire people, give people a toolbox and, you know, for me as an agent, and you tell me if I'm reading this right, a big challenge in falling in love with a project, any project, is I need the tone to match whatever the author is pitching. And the tone in this novel, like, okay, so a most puzzling murder. It's an ensemble cast story, but we follow destiny, like Bianca said, right? And she. She gets this mysterious letter. She goes to this island where there's like no cell phone reception and there's this castle and it's scary and there's this family think like succession, but with magic. And she is a world renowned enigmatologist. She solves puzzles for a living, essentially. And the thing about this novel is that it's mysterious and eerie and atmospheric, right? Like, that's the tone, but the tone is also humorous. And it straddles this line of being a light hearted novel. Like it's fun. Like it's fun. You're eating this novel like you're consuming candy. It's fun, but it also has depth, it has teeth, it has bite. It's more than one thing, right? And when it comes to that, that's really difficult to pull off. It's really difficult to pull off. How do you think of tone as an author? How do you straddle that line? How do you manage to keep all those plates spinning?
- [14:48]
Bianca Marais
Yeah, it's a good question, Cece. And the thing is, is that every book issues the writer an invitation to a party and they give you a dress code. So my first two novels were more book club fiction. It was more subdued kind of party. It was a bunch of South Africans wearing shorts and T shirts and wearing their flip flops and their caps, and it was pretty chilled. And so the language and everything to do with that book, the tone matched that dress code invitation. This book, when this book sent me an invitation to write it. It was like, think Gothic, dark and stormy night. Think Victorian novel almost because they're on this island that is covered in cobblestones. There is no electricity, there are gas lamps, there are chariots, people cannot use their cell phones, etc. There are wall sconces with fire. So it has a historical vibe. It has this sort of Gothic, Victorian vibe to it. And so when it sent me the invitation, it was like, the dress code is steampunk chic with hooded cloaks and really go to town with that. And so I had to raise my game in terms of the tone of this novel. I am not someone who normally writes purple prose, and for our listeners, purple prose is like, really over the top jazz hands writing. It's like, look, Ma, I'm writing. You are having fun with the language. The tone is, like, frothy, and it's frivolous and it's effervescent, and your adjectives are more over the top, and you really just play in the sandbox of words with this kind of thing. So I use so much more alliteration, so much more metaphor, et cetera. And I think that's something so important for writers when they sit down to write, is tone is incredibly important to think about. What kind of language are you going to be using that is going to elevate what you want to say? How are you going to circle the building in terms of the language? And how is that going to work for one book? And it may not work in a different book. So you could write two totally different books. And it should be that people who pick it up don't know that you're the author because the tone is so wildly different. And I did want it to be quirky. Destiny is a very quirky character. She has a best friend who's a ghost. That's not a spoiler. You find that out in the first chapter, and she speaks to this ghost friend who's very, very snarky. So there are moments of levity, but there's also a lot of moments where I want you to be biting your nails as you turn the pages, and you're like, what the hell is about to happen here?
- [17:37]
Carly Waters
I love that analogy so much, and I love what you said about playing in the sandbox of words. Okay. I'm excited to see how people resonate with that because I feel like every writer has a sandbox, and it's fun to play around with what kind of sandbox you're using. Question. You are famously a pantser, not a Plotter. But this is a closed murder mystery with an ensemble cast. So, like, obviously, you were juggling a lot, right? Like, a lot of balls up in the air at the same time. It had to come together in a way that felt really intentional, yet surprising. And I know that we talked about this briefly. I know that at some point you were like, this book is killing me. I can't pants my way through this book. What am I gonna do? Did you end up plotting? Did you manage to say a pantser? Like, what did you do there?
- [18:26]
Bianca Marais
I honestly thought that if I was ever going to plot a book, this would be the book I was going to plot. And I sat down with every intention to plot this book, and my brain would just not let me do it. I don't know why. It was just. It revolted at the thought. It was like, oh, hell no, we are not doing this. And so I said, okay, let's see if I can pants a closed room murder mystery. And. And I'm so glad I did, Cece, because things that arose in the story were things that would never have happened had I sat down and plotted the novel. I followed Destiny. I trusted her to take us onto this island, and I followed her. And every time something was required, I gave her the thing that she needed. And often this would be a character who I don't want to give too much away, but let's say somebody like a barista or somebody like a bus driver who had to be there in that moment to get her from one point to the next. And suddenly that character, who I did not know would be a main character, would do something seriously dodgy. And I would be like, that's dodgy. That's interesting. What is this character up to? And my spidey senses would be like, ooh. And I'd make a note, and because Destiny notices everything, she would notice things I wasn't noticing, and she would focus on that, and I would make a note of that and go, let's come back to this. Let's see what this can become. And I feel that if you, as the author, are constantly surprised by the things that your characters do, your readers are going to be surprised as well. And I wanted this book to be challenging. You know what something that drives me nuts is? I feel that. I don't know. In the last 10 years, we have been dumbed down to the point that if something cannot be explained in a meme in three seconds, we can't understand it. We don't understand nuance. We don't understand how two contradicting things can be true at the same time. I feel like we've lost all critical thinking skills. And I wanted to write a book that is going to make people engage with it, not be spoon fed, use their brains, use their critical thinking skills and really look at these puzzles and be like, oh my God, I've got to figure this all out. So I wanted that adventure and it all just came together without me plotting it. But what I did have to do was that halfway through, I had to start reverse outlining it. Because the biggest problem is when you write an ensemble cast, I mean, this has got like, I don't know, POV characters, one of which is a raccoon people. So this just tells you how insane this book is. But in this kind of murder mystery, there are times that Destiny knows something or she thinks she knows something, but someone she's speaking to does not know that. And she does not want that person to know that yet. But the person she's speaking to knows something else that Destiny does not know yet, and that person doesn't want to quite reveal it just yet. So at any given point I had all these characters who knew different things, were hiding these things from each other, were not telling Destiny, were lying, and it was like juggling Jello. Honestly, it was like Jello was sticking against the walls at one point, sliding down. It was a freaking mess. And the reverse outlining helped me go. What does Destiny know at the moment? What does she not know at the moment? What does the character she's speaking with know? When are they likely to reveal this? When will Destiny find this out? And that is the way I did it. And all of this to say, there are so many ways to write a book. And you will hear from authors on the podcast all the time. This is the perfect way to do it. You must plot, you must paint, you must do some of this. You don't have to do anything. This is your book. You get to decide how you're going to play with it and how it's going to eventually come together. And I think by painting it, I played to my strengths and I really think that that came through in the novel itself.
- [22:43]
Carly Waters
I love that. And okay, so speaking of, I guess the brain power needed to write this book for our listeners if you haven't checked out the novel already. So like I said, the protagonist is a world renowned enigmatologist and she's solving a huge mystery. And in order to solve that mystery, she needs to solve puzzles. And the book is interspersed with these puzzles that the protagonist is solving. But here's the thing. As a reader, it's super interactive. You get to solve those puzzles, too. Now, if you're hearing this and you're going, I hate puzzles, that's cool. You can jump to the back of the book, just see the answer. I wouldn't do it that way because the puzzles are really cool.
- [23:22]
Bianca Marais
But.
- [23:23]
Carly Waters
But if that's your jam, that's fine. But if you. If you're like, I love puzzles. I want to solve this with the protagonist, then you will find that the story gives you everything you need in terms of clues. You have to pay attention. You have to read, you know, with your brain fully turned on. But if you want a little extra help, if you're like, this puzzle is hard, you can actually email the protagonist. I'm not making a mistake when I'm saying this. It's not email Bianca. It's email the protagonist and ask for help. Can you please tell us about that? How did you come up with that idea? Because right in the beginning, that wasn't there. Like, the very first chapters I read. How'd you come up with that idea? How does that work? Well, it's all about it.
- [24:02]
Bianca Marais
Again, this was a necessity is the mother of invention. So I knew that I wanted the puzzles throughout. And I'm so lucky that I have a very bright husband who helped me with a lot of them. We belong to an escape room group in Toronto, and I've got very bright friends who love solving these puzzles, and they helped with those as well. So I knew that the puzzles were all going to be in there. And then I realized that not all readers are puzzle people. And also some of my really good puzzle. This puzzle's too easy. And then the next person was like, oh, I couldn't figure out this puzzle. It was way too hard. So I was going, okay, how can I give clues to people to help them along the way, but without adding more pages to this book? Because, Cece, as we say on this podcast all the time, paper is expensive. Publishers are constantly trying to get books to be shorter, fewer pages. And then I thought, you know what I would love? I would love to read a book where I get to engage with the main character, where I get to have a conversation with them. And I was like, how cool would it be to email a main character? And they immediately email you back with the information you need. So throughout the book, every single puzzle, you can email Destiny. She'll give you clues that'll help you solve the mystery. Or again, if that's not your jam. Go to the back, find out what the answer is, and then come back and keep reading. But because I wanted it to be an immersive experience. I mean, in the author's notes at the front, I say, this book is not like other prim and proper books who don't like being written in. If you have a problem writing in a book, get over it, because you need pen and paper and you need to mock this book up because everything is a clue. What I hate when I'm solving a murder mystery is getting to the end and suddenly a character pops up who we didn't know about, who we never saw on the page. And suddenly they the murderer or they the person who did something. This book, from the opening pages, clues are being planted and you need to be underlining them and putting question marks next to them and being like, what is this person up to? Why is this here? When will this become important? So, yeah, it's a puzzle of a book that I want you to live inside of.
- [26:21]
Carly Waters
It's a puzzle of a book that you get to live inside of. Come on. Like, if this doesn't make people want to read the book, I don't know what will. So, speaking of, obviously we have our protagonist, Destiny. She's everyone's favorite. If you read this book, you will adore her. But she's not the only pov. How did you manage writing an ensemble cast? And did you have a favorite Destiny doesn't count. Did you have a favorite non destiny character to write?
- [26:47]
Bianca Marais
They were all my favorites because this was the first time I got to write such diabolical characters. You know, in the Witches of Moonshine Manor, I was able to write like one sort of diabolical character. But the Scruffmore family is a mess. It is a viper's nest. It is a monarchy of magical people. Mordecai Scruffmore is the king. He's got. His children are princes and princesses. He has an ex wife who's the disgraced former queen. We've got his new wife who will never be queen and is frantically bitter about that and will stop at nothing to get her other children on the throne. And it was just so fun to play around with antagonists who all view themselves as protagonists to see what they were up to and to also realize that sometimes very awful people are made that way from really shitty childhoods, from bad things that have happened to them. Or. Or you get people who have had awful childhoods and have managed to overcome so much adversity to Become really strong people. And so I honestly can't say that I had a favorite character. I did enjoy the raccoon. I must be honest. I really enjoyed writing that raccoon. There's a lot of cats in the book as well. Strong female leads always. Did you have a favorite other character? Cece?
- [28:09]
Carly Waters
I think Hexibus. Yeah. Yeah, I like her.
- [28:13]
Bianca Marais
I think I'm most like Hexibus. So I think I'm the character's most like Hecibus. So thank you.
- [28:19]
Carly Waters
I mean, again, it's hard because I also. There are two things that draw me to a character. The first is, yeah, I might like them and I love Destiny. But the other thing is I might be fascinated by them. And often, often you're fascinated by people you like, but fascination doesn't require likability. So I was fascinated by Mordecai, like, fascinating. I didn't like him, not one bit, you know, but. But I still wanted to be in his head. I wanted to understand what was going on there. So, yeah, it's, it's. It's hard to pick a favorite, even as an agent. Okay, we actually have an official question left on my list, but something you said made me think that I wanna. I don't know, I think our listeners would wanna know, but I don't know if it's too. What do you think?
- [29:02]
Bianca Marais
You know, here's the thing. And. And the podcast is called the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. And there'll be often times that I interview authors and I'll ask them questions that I know our listeners want to hear, and authors will say, oh, I don't really want to go there because it might upset my publisher and it is a small industry, etc. But having said that, I started this podcast to lift the veil on the things that happened behind the scenes scenes. And so I think. I don't know, cc. I think we owe it to our listeners to answer as honestly as we can.
- [29:38]
Carly Waters
Okay, I love that. In that case, I'm going to ask you. Let's talk about the offer. So this was an option work. Let's explain that. So essentially, after you already have a deal with a publisher and a book already came out, whatever you write next is under an option clause, which means that you have to send that to the publisher so the publisher can take a look and decide whether they want to offer it or not. Authors don't have to say yes to an offer, by the way. It's really just like they have the right to look at it first, essentially. This is a very basic explanation. But back to the question. You, you got a six figure two book deal offer like that sent to you. A lot of authors think, oh my God, two book deal, that's, that's amazing. They think it's necessarily better than a wand. Kind of like having two chocolate chip cookies is better than one. But as an agent, I often disagree. And like all things, it needs to be analyzed on a case by case basis, depending on your goals, depending on other things. So. So again, we talked. We talked, you and me, and you decided not to take this two book deal, the six figure two book deal offer. Why not? What went through your head? I love that we're like lifting the veil here and just being super honest.
- [30:46]
Bianca Marais
Yeah, absolutely. You know, when you get that kind of offer, and I'd never had it before, my first book was one offer and, you know, again with the option to see the second one. And in between all of these books, I wrote another book, a thriller that I spent two years on and never got sold. So what writers often want is security. And with a two book deal, you have that security. You go, okay, well, they definitely are going to want my second book. They'll work on it, et cetera. But one, I trust you implicitly. And I think that's so important for our listeners to know. When you have a relationship with your agent, you have got to trust them. Because if you're second guessing everything your agent's saying and you're like, no, I actually rather want to do this, you may not be with the right agent. So when CeCe makes me aware of something and tells me something, I 100% listen and I'm going to trust her. And we both agreed that one, my next book was not going to be a magical caper. Again. We weren't doing a murder mystery. I didn't want to write witches again. I wanted to write something serious. I'm coming back to book club fiction. So if we did a two book deal, I would have to write a book in a genre that I perhaps didn't want to come back to. And two, you know, the industry has been in such flux, and something Cece and I discussed was I loved my editor, absolutely adored her, Nicole Brebner. She's the reason that I went with her for the Witches. We had other offers. I went with Nicole for that. But here's the thing. You can never be guaranteed that that editor is going to stay. Editors move around all the time. Things are constantly in flux. And the minute you sign a two book deal, if you lose your editor, you are kind of stuck and you will get handed to anyone else whether you get along well with them or not, whether you have good chemistry with them or not. And you and I discussed that possibility. And so we both agreed. Not a two book deal, a one book deal. And then look at what happened. So I honestly think you're a witch, Cece.
- [32:58]
Carly Waters
Okay, what actually happened, everyone? Oh, my God, I can't believe you're talking about. This is. Nicole did leave. So Nicole Rebner, the editor who did give Bianca this six figure two book offer, she left a publisher. And that was really heartbreaking for, for even for me. Like, this is hard on agents too, guys, is what I'm saying. And B, this wasn't the first time that this happened to you. Tell us about that.
- [33:23]
Bianca Marais
Yeah, I mean, they, in the industry, they call it getting orphaned. People are like, why are you obsessed with orphans in your books? You have a lot of orphans in your books. And it's like, well, you get orphaned a lot in this industry. So, yeah, with my debut novel, I sold the second novel to that editor, Kerry Colin, and then she left and I got handed over to somebody else to edit the novel, who was absolutely wonderful. She was an incredible person. I loved her, but she was not Carrie, the person I signed on with. And it wasn't a book that she had bought. And so editors are always so much more invested in books, books that they themselves have bought because they've got something to prove with that book. Whereas if they take over a book, they're going to do the very best they can, but it. They're not as invested in it. And so of course, when this happened again with Nicole, I was absolutely heartbroken and just as heartbroken for Nicole, and of course heartbroken for, for this book. I was very lucky in that Nicole had done most of the edits, so we worked together on most of the edits. And then afterwards, you know, when I was handed across to somebody else, we just did some superficial edits. But I am just so, so relieved that I did not sign that two book deal. And for our listeners out there, I know for everybody, the holy grail is that two book deal. But sometimes it isn't the right way to go. And in those instances, really listen to your agent.
- [34:50]
Carly Waters
I think that, you know, the fact that you can tell a story in so many ways, there's more than one way to do it, is a really good analogy for also making big publishing decisions. You can build a career as an author in so many ways. And it's really important not to let the rigidity of your dreams affect your goals. Right. Because at the end of the day, it is a career. It is something that is supposed to last a lifetime. And so it's really hard. And thank you. Thank you for your honesty, Bea. Thank you for being brave enough to talk about this. I was sure we were gonna have to cut my question, so thank you. As a final question, this is what I ask of every person I interview on the podcast. I'm not usually the one doing the interviews, but all my interviews have this question at the very end. Please recommend us a book. It can be a book you haven't started yet and you're excited. It can be a book you've heard about. It can be a book you're reading now. Plug in a book.
- [35:44]
Bianca Marais
Okay, so the book that I'm gonna plug in is one that I finished a while ago. I'm going to actually reach for it. For those of you watching on the YouTube channel is notes on an execution, Dania Kukowska. Because I have finally nagged Dania so much that she has agreed to come onto the podcast and be interviewed there. Cece and I are twinsing. Cece told me about this book. I then read this book. Was obsessed with this book book. And Dania is not only an incredible author, she is also a literary agent. So I'm going to be interviewing her later this year and I cannot wait to pick her brain about this incredible, incredible book. Yay.
- [36:26]
Carly Waters
I'm so excited we're gonna get to hear from her. Okay, thank you so much, Bea. To everyone listening, if you haven't already, Most Puzzling Murder comes out on June 10th. It is. It's everything you want in a book. It has an unforgettable protagonist, it has an ensemble cast. It has a mystery, it has heart. And I really want to know if you're gonna do the puzzles as you read them. So if you are, please tag us. Tag the podcast. Tag Bea, tag myself on your puzzle making endeavors. And I want to see those pictures. I want to see the picture of you with the book solving the puzzles, because it just sounds really cool. So thank you so much, Bea, for. For joining us.
- [37:11]
Bianca Marais
And thank you for this amazing interview, cece, and for our listeners. Remember that the big launch event is happening on the 9th of June in downtown Toronto. We are bringing the entire community together. There are going to be literary agents, authors, people in publishing, emerging authors, podcast listeners, bookstagrammers, readers. It is going to be a literary love fest. And we really hope we're going to see you there. Yay.
- [37:38]
Carly Waters
See you on June 9th, everyone.
- [37:40]
Bianca Marais
And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.
- [37:54]
Cece Lira
Hello listeners, this is cece. I am so excited to announce my next course, Writing Emotion and Relationships. An all new mashup of two of my most popular classes revamped with fresh content starting on June 19th. This is going to be a four day event, so come prepared to take lots of notes. We'll cover active versus passive emotions, how to effectively show versus tell most common mistakes in writing emotions and relationships, and obviously how to get it right, types of relationships and how to leverage each one in a story, emotional and relational makeups and arcs for protagonists and other characters, how to create chemistry between characters, different genre expectations, and so much more. Oh, and did I mention there's an interactive component? That's right. Everyone who is registered will have the option of sending an excerpt of their work for a chance to have it critiqued live during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend. There are limited spots though, so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend one or more sessions live. The recording will be sent to everyone who's registered 24 hours after each class. Once again, this is a four day class, Writing Emotion and Relationship Relationships beginning on June 19th. For more details, check out the link on my Instagram bio or head over to the podcast's website. I hope to see you there.