← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Concrete vs. Abstract Curiosity
00:43:36
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
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- [00:00]
Cece Lira
Hello listeners, this is cece. I am so excited to announce my next course, Writing Emotion and Relationships, an all new mashup of two of my most popular classes revamped with fresh content starting on June 19th. This is going to be a four day event, so come prepared to take lots of notes. We'll cover active versus passive emotions, how to effectively show versus tell most common mistakes in writing, emotions and relationships, and obviously how to get it right, types of relationships and how to leverage each one in a story, emotional and relational makeups and arcs for protagonists and other characters, how to create chemistry between characters, different genre expectations, and so much more. Oh, and did I mention there's an interactive component? That's right. Everyone who is registered will have the option of sending an excerpt of their work for a chance to have it critiqued live during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend. There are limited spots though, so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend one or more sessions live. The recording will be sent to everyone who's registered 24 hours after each class. Once again, this is a four day class, Writing Emotion and Relationships beginning on June 19th. For more details, check out the link on my Instagram bio or head over to the podcast's website. I hope to see you there.
- [01:45]
Bianca Marais
Hi there and welcome to our show, the shit no one tells you about writing. I'm Bianca Marais and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Books with hooks. It's a special one today because we have the author joining us. Welcome, Kate Visser.
- [02:07]
Kate Visser
I am so excited to be here. Hi everyone.
- [02:11]
Bianca Marais
Hi and thank you for being brave enough to come on the show with us. We're really excited to dive in. Will you actually kick us off, Kate, by reading us your query letter?
- [02:20]
Unknown Author
Absolutely. Dear Carly, CeCe and Bianca, thank you for all you do for the writing community. TS Natya has transformed my writing, introduced me to the best critique partners I could hope for, some of whom are probably listening right now. Not all of them, and consistently inspires me.
- [02:38]
Kate Visser
I am so grateful for the opportunity.
- [02:41]
Unknown Author
To submit my work to you. Thank you for your time and your thoughts. I am seeking representation for my crossover dark academia romantic fantasy Stage of shadows, complete at 96,000 words. My dual POV debut is perfect for the fans of the queer romance in St. Gibson's An Education in Malice and the guilt driven protagonists of Tikiskuruma's Immortal Dark. I Hope you enjoy this contemporary fantasy set in a magical theater college where two students fall in love while learning to reshape reality, unaware that tuition might cost them their lives. Aspiring 17 year old actress Dolly is heartbroken when the Juilliard School denies her financial aid. Acting's her sole talent. Without a theater career, she'll never escape her abusive mother or the misplaced guilt she feels for stabbing her stepfather to protect her little brother Yvonne. So when Dolly's offered a scholarship to mysterious Everstory College by an impressed Hollywood executive for only the cost of an unknown favor, she's desperate enough to accept elsewhere. When 18 year old Moira flips the switch, she accidentally turns off her world. Her family vanishes and her bedroom transforms into an empty chamber within Everstory. There, Estine informs Moira that Everstory created her from pure creativity. The latest in an unbroken line of student to dean to headmistress, Moira is destined to channel Everstory's ability to propagate stories within the human subconscious. Devastated that her life was an illusion, Moira clings to hope that mastering Everstory's magic will help her recreate her family. At first, Everstory seems ideal. Dolly learns theater craft and how to magically transform herself while Moira studies Everstory's powers and smothers grief and furtive kisses with Dolly. Then Dolly's tuition payment comes due and Yvonne is kidnapped as leverage. Before the end of the year, Dolly must force Moira to flee Everstory for Moira's existence blocks the Dean's deal with the Hollywood executive to profit off the school's abilities. But a heartbeat before acting, Dolly learns that success would result in Moira's death. Though torn between saving Yvonne or Moira, Dolly must re earn Moira's trust and help her accept her birthright. Otherwise the Dean will usurp control of Ever Story and none of them will survive. This novel is inspired by my theater kid past and by Carl Jung's theories of the collective unconscious. A Rhode island based psychologist by day, my scholarly work has been published in over 30 academic journals and book chapters. When I'm not playing with my toddler, biking or knitting, I'm busy writing my next book surrounded by three cats. May I please send you the full manuscript? Sincerely, Kate Visser. And that word count without the first paragraph is 415.
- [05:35]
Bianca Marais
Wonderful, Kate, thank you so much. Okay, I think we're going to hand it across to Carly first. Carly.
- [05:41]
Carly Waters
All right. Well done. I know it's nerve wracking getting on the Show. You used an excellent presenter voice.
- [05:46]
Unknown Speaker
Well done.
- [05:47]
Carly Waters
I hope everybody enjoyed that recreation of the pitch letter from the author herself. So great work. Okay, so this one's super professional. Like, it came off, you know, really well done, really well polished. I think the hook is really strong. Any agents, you know, who are listening to this or, you know, reading our substack notes, definitely, like, leaning closer. This is definitely something you're going to want to pay attention to. So I thought you did a really, really great job overall. So just obviously working through our notes here. So you use the words like yo. For their age. I would probably just spell it out. 17 year old. I generally feel like we don't need short forms and a pitch. And the way that you read it out loud, you said years old, so I'd probably just swap that. Okay, so overall, there's a lot going on because there's like, there's two characters, there's a whole world, there's stakes. I think you did, as I said, I think you overall did a really great job. And my baseline is always, if there's an agent who's interested in this category, will they be interested enough to request more? I think you did the job. In terms of the questions that I would have as an agent after reading this, again, there's a difference between, am I intrigued enough to request more and am I so confused that I don't know what's going on? And if there is a gap in knowledge between those two things, am I willing to go on the journey and spend the time and energy to figure it out? So let's just poke at some holes a little bit so we can kind of figure out some of the things that are going on. So I think it is clear in the sense of we're in our world, you have built another world that there's kind of a portal of some kind to kind of get to. And there's the magic, obviously, that's kind of in between here. I found the first. I found Dolly's paragraph quite easy to understand. Like, I had some notes, which you'll see here was a little bit of like, is it literal or is it figurative? Like, what exactly do you mean by every word choice? I could. I could see that you were very intentional with your word choice. So which makes me think that you were paying quite a bit of attention to everything that you were. You were trying to communicate. But the Moira paragraph, the flips a switch and accidentally turns off her world, that's kind of an example of like, is it a literal Switch on the wall, she turns the light off and everybody's disappeared. Or something happens. She wakes up in the morning, everybody's gone, or something like that. So again, I don't know if you necessarily need to spell everything out, but that, that'll definitely be a question mark for some people. And then the whole. I guess I'm trying to figure out how sinister things are. And obviously we're going to get to the pages and talk about tone, but.
- [08:20]
Unknown Speaker
In terms of the.
- [08:20]
Carly Waters
How sinister the Hollywood part is, I don't know. I guess I'm trying to figure out is it this, like, Hollywood executive caricature who, like, comes in, in this dramatic way, or is it somebody who like, feels real and is a character who is kind of like undermining the situation and how hands on they are versus this like, big baddie in Hollywood that we never fully understand? That's the part I couldn't quite figure out of, again, how caricature it was versus how much of an actual character this executive is. Because I guess I was trying to figure out what is Hollywood's role in this because it seems like as a stake either, you know, you talk about Broadway or Hollywood, obviously, is these two aspirations for. For actors. Yeah. I don't know, is it just convenient that it's like this executive that's trying to do this? Like, I have questions about is it, is it? The whole system is the problem and all of these different executives have their own schools and like, again, like, how, how big and deep does this malicious concept go? Or is it so magical and special, like, in that wicked way where it's like, this is the only, you know, school that matters. And again, it could be that you have a future series planned and we have all these other places to go, but for the sake of the query letter. Yeah. We have to kind of focus, what is it about this pitch that kind of is gonna make that sing and make that work? And I do think you have some strong stakes, such as, you know, there's obviously the complicated family history, wanting to save the brother. All of that makes sense about why she's trying to do that. You know, the love story seems really kind of sweet and earnest and honest, which, you know, is very lovely. But, yeah, I guess I'm just trying to figure out a little bit more about the world. But it's not a big bad thing, as I said off the top of my critique, because I think an agent that's interested in this is going to be able to, you know, get the sense of whether this is something for them. I mean, if I was an agent looking at this category, I would think, like, am I looking for YA fantasy? Am I interested in dark academia? Am I interested in the theater? Are the stakes there? Like, that's kind of the checklist that an agent would be working through. And obviously, do they like the pages and the writing and the voice and all of that? And. Yeah. So I think you've. You've checked enough boxes for me. If we could just figure out, yeah, maybe how to clarify Moira's paragraph a little bit. And you'll see in my notes, and our substack paid subscribers will see my notes as well about when I had a bit of a tricky time following it, how many times I had to read it to kind of get a sense of what was going on. But we always say on this show, fantasy is one of the hardest things to kind of simplify and summarize in a pitch. And we completely understand that. So overall, I think you did a really great job. And yeah. So pat yourself on the back for that.
- [11:04]
Bianca Marais
Thank you, Carly. Right, we're going to hand across to Cece, and after that, we'll go back to Kate. Cece, what are your thoughts?
- [11:12]
Cece Lira
I have to echo Carly's comment about your voice. That was such a good reading. Like, I feel like you might have a future in voice acting if you're ever interested. That was really, really good. It was soothing and at the same time, like, eerie and match the story's mood, which is hard, hard to pull off. Okay. I think that my note is going to focus on story arcs. Dolly story arc, very clear for me.
- [11:37]
Bianca Marais
Love it.
- [11:37]
Cece Lira
Know exactly what she wants. I know what she's up against. I kind of have a sense of how propulsive it's going to be, you know? Like, I really like that. Moira's arc is not clear for me. And this is why I love having authors on the show. You, you know, if you want to. If you want to spend time on this, you can clarify that arc for me. But for me, the empty chamber comment made me think she was a prisoner. So prisoner equals powerless. But then the whole, like, student to dean to headmistress thing made me think she might have more power. So I do get her goal. Her goal is to bring back her family. Although I'll be honest and say if it's all made up, then, like, how. How does she expect to do that? You know? Like, is she okay with that? But that's not even my point. My point is I get her goal, but I'M not clear on her place.
- [12:23]
In the world and the power dynamics.
- [12:26]
And, you know, something we don't explicitly say on the podcast, but if you were to pay attention to all our notes and really dig to the root of everything we say is we should always know, based on the query letter, what the protagonist's place in the world is, because that is so essential to, like, what are they going to be up against? You know, if they're very powerful protagonists in the beginning of the story, then the inciting incident typically removes that power so that they have something to fight towards. If they have very little power, then the inciting incident complicates things in a way to then, you know, lead to whatever goal that they're going to be on a journey towards. So I think it's really important that we clarify Mora's arc, because in dual point of view stories, one of the main reasons why I will pass and even, like, acquisitions editors will pass is that they didn't feel invested in both arcs. And I'll be honest. Like, I have read multiple manuscripts where I'm like, you've nailed one, but the other one, like, it's good, but it's not like, oh, my God, there's always a main, main one. There's always one that's more interesting than the other. There's always one that the author kind of loves more. That's normal. But both arcs should have very clear, fleshed out stories so that we can be very curious and invested in each one.
- [13:36]
Bianca Marais
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Kate, we're going to hand across to you. You can answer any questions they had or pose any questions that you might have. Here we go.
- [13:45]
Kate Visser
Wonderful. Thank you both so much. It's a nice little boost for my morning. So, yes, I am really glad that it sounds like enough is coming through on Dolly. Hers was definitely the easier one to write. Moira was harder. And so, yeah, I definitely have some questions. Maybe I'll start by just giving more backstory on Moira. And I would love maybe some help, kind of seeing how I can distill that a little differently or better or capture some of those dynamics. So Moira was created by the school. She is more or less solidified illusion.
- [14:21]
Unknown Author
If you're a Star Trek fan and.
- [14:24]
Kate Visser
Have seen Voyager, kind of like the Doctor hologram, I've revealed myself as a big nerd. Anyway, so solidified hologram, more or less, who only exists within the school grounds. She was raised in an entire world that she has no idea is actually fake. It's all contained within a room that has this power to project and create these illusions. And part of her storyline is learning.
- [14:55]
Unknown Author
How to do that.
- [14:56]
Kate Visser
So she does get in for her graduation party. A literal switch, a literal remote in a box. And there's some suspicion that she has about what will happen when she clicks that she chooses to too, because she can never resist a mystery. And also because there's a moment with her best friend at the time that kind of sets her off, gets her to think, well, I just want to reset everything. Maybe this will do it. So her world literally does turn off and she finds that she has been her whole life within this blank room. So a little bit of a prisoner.
- [15:33]
Yes.
- [15:34]
She has kind of grown up within Everstory without knowing it. In this one small metal room that has. Because of the power that ever story has to mold this. I called it pure creativity in the COVID letter. There's a lot of kind of pieces around that I was essentially trying to. I was playing with the question of, okay, what is the collective unconscious? How are these ideas? If we think about Jung's theories of connecting through these global archetypes, what's the function of that? How does that actually work? And came up with, okay, maybe there's this substance that connects everybody in some way, and maybe some people have more of it than others. Moira is made of it completely. So how it works is that this school is on this nexus of this substance, which I call anima. In the book, Moira is made of it, so is the dean, and the headmistress is the third. And so Moira's role is to learn how to control this substance, how to direct the school in order to channel its influence on global creativity. Because they can manufacture tropes can help instill these popular ideas in different creatives across the world. So there's one line in the explanation in the book of, okay, so this feisty girl princess saving the world trope, that's in one of our chambers being acted out right now. And that's where that comes from. So I feel like I'm getting in the weeds here, so I'll redirect. Anyway, so Moira has very little power at the beginning. She is sensitive to the school, the school is sensitive to her, but she has not fully connected with it because she grew up in this very siloed environment, that part of her journey is she has to learn how to work with the school. And then there's a ceremony at the end of the year that will fully merge her with it. So she's Able to take her next steps and have more power and control to eventually take on the dean's role as the dean, then steps into the headmistresses, who has even more power and control and can shape and create people like Moira.
- [17:48]
Bianca Marais
Can I ask a question, Kate? Is this going to be a series duology? Kali and cece, do you have anything to jump in with at this point?
- [17:58]
Carly Waters
I feel like both of our wheels are spinning a lot. I'll say my piece, and I know cece's a psychology nerd, so I'm sure she's going to want to go deep in her own way. I am fascinated by what you're saying. It's incredibly interesting. It's very existential, and again, we'll get to the pages in a little bit. But the concept itself honestly feels overwhelming in terms of a concept. It sounds very complicated, and you're trying to distill it in such a fascinating way. And so I'm a little bit worried that you've bitten off a lot here. Not in a way that makes it impossible. And I love, you know, an ambitious thing, and I think that's what Bianca's getting out of. Like, how many books is it going to take for us to build out this whole world and this whole concept? And what is. What do you want? I guess I'm curious about is like, what do you want to say as a creative and an artist and a writer yourself? I think this is quite an existential, large question. And the fact that it's targeted towards teens is really interesting to me. Me, because there's a very deep place you're going about, you know, our place in the world and how we imagine our physical bodies and our minds and whether they're connected to each other. On top of that, you're layering in an entire world in school and plots. It just is. To me, this is just a huge concept and it's all interesting and fascinating. But, yeah, I'm just wondering if, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, you've bitten off more than you can chew in a way to, like, distill all of this, because to me, Moira's plot line is. Sounds a lot more science fiction. And so you have the science fiction piece of, like, is she a hologram? I don't know. I'm having a hard time putting all my words and thoughts together with this concept because I guess I just find it so overwhelming in a very fascinating way. But, cc, as a psychology nerd, you might be able to compartmentalize this Concept in a way that's a bit easier for you than it is for me.
- [19:46]
Cece Lira
Yeah, I feel like. Oh, gosh. I feel like right now, the note that we should focus on just, you know, my two cents is, are you sure you have Maura's arc figured out? Because I am not convinced. You did a great job of explaining her backstory. Like, you know, her backstory. This is not the issue, though. But here's the thing. The story starts off with Moira figuring out that she's a solidified hologram. So, like, her world is shattered. That's an excellent inciting incident. Great job. And it's interesting because she's sentient, but she's also not human. So, like, amazing. Amazing tropes. Amazing potential. Great. So great. Like, honestly, so great in terms of the beginning. But then, from what I'm seeing and what I'm hearing, it's all about Dolly. Because I know that Moira, in the beginning of the story has the goal of getting her family back. And that's a goal that makes sense. It would be plausible for her to hold on to her old life, because that's just very human psychology thing. Like, when we lose the thing we thought was real, especially when we learn that we're a solidified hologram, we're like, no, no, I want to get back to that. But through the arc, what needs to happen, in my opinion, is she needs to then learn something about this world that totally changes her. And then she needs to have a new goal. You know, the goal of finding her family is no longer the goal. Like, she'll outgrow it. And that new goal needs to be hers and hers alone. It can be connected to Dolly's goal. That's fine. The worlds can collide, but right now, it's all about Dolly. Like, Dolly has to convince her to leave so the dean doesn't have power, and that's going to make Moira die. So then Dolly has this dilemma of, like, is it my little brother? Is it Moira? Which, to be frank, easiest question ever. Obviously, she's going to choose her little.
- [21:22]
Unknown Speaker
Brother, in my opinion.
- [21:23]
Cece Lira
Like, you're going to have to really build the relationship between these two for me to believe that it would even be a question that she wouldn't save her little brother, which I believe you can. But, like, back to the point of Moira, if that exists in your story, great. You have to write it in the query letter. If that doesn't, then I think you need to come up with it. The arc, the beginning is fantastic. But then you're getting lost. And I. I think that's Carly's point. You're getting lost in the very impressive, very intellectual, like, absolutely hats off existential seeds to this. And. And that's amazing. It's amazing that you have that to fall back on. It'll be so great for, like, author interviews and like op ed pieces, you know, like, how a psychologist with this really cool background created this world. So great. That's not enough for a story arc. Like, we need to get back to the basic, like, nuts and bolts of story. Like, what is going to happen to Moira and what is Moira going to make happen in this world?
- [22:18]
Kate Visser
Yeah, so that's a good point. And that's something that. So the way I kind of thought about her arc and this, I didn't. I completely missed what I was going through, her whole backstory. And I don't think it is in the query letter. So I think that's a really, really good point and something I need to add in. So she originally is all about, okay, I'm going learn how to control the school so I can recreate my family and go home. I don't want to be here. I don't want to be in this world. I made a huge mistake. And so there's a lot of grief that she's chewing through. And then she, so what ends up happening? I'm just going to spoil some things. She finds out that students are being murdered, that the headmistress has actually been murdered, and she starts to be attacked. And so she kind of has to then decide, okay, well, what is my life? Is that worth saving?
- [23:09]
Carly Waters
What.
- [23:10]
Kate Visser
What am I in this world? Can I. And she figures out that the dean has this whole side deal to use Everstory's powers to more or less create a money making machine, so influencing and choosing what popular tropes are picked to get more money. And so she kind of ends up in this moral quandary of, well, do I choose my life back at home or do I have kind of a moral responsibility here to say, step into this role to make it mine? Is there something where I can choose my own life here that I can settle into establishing myself?
- [23:45]
Bianca Marais
For our listeners who do not Watch us on YouTube, if you are listening right now, I would go to YouTube because CECE Space, for the last minute has been the epitome of the mind blown emoji. You can actually see her brain exploding and there's steam coming out of it.
- [24:01]
Cece Lira
See?
- [24:02]
Bianca Marais
See, you have something to say.
- [24:03]
Kate Visser
What?
- [24:04]
Cece Lira
Why are you doing this to me, Kate? Like, this is a great arc. That arc has to be in the query letter. Like, it is unacceptable that you didn't put it in the query ladder. It is an actual story crime. I'm gonna put you in jail. Because it's, like, so good. Yes. So then she does. She does develop protagonism. She has the initial goal, and then she finds out about this plan, and then she has to, like, step into her larger role and, like. Like, zooming in, zooming out. It works on a micro level, it works on a macro level. Like, that is very good. Very, very, very good. And you just kept it all from us. Like. Like, why would you do that to me? You know, like, why? What did I do? How did I hurt you, Kate?
- [24:45]
Bianca Marais
Is it important here, cc, to find out from Kate at what point in the story this happens because she's treading on spoiler territories? Is that why you were told it, Kate?
- [24:55]
Kate Visser
Yeah.
- [24:56]
And so this is where. Because one thing I've always heard from the podcast, and I really tried to lean in my query later, Carly, I always have your voice in my head of, I want the spoilers. I want more people hold back too much. And so I really tried to put more in, but that piece around the headmistress and finding that. That kicks off the third act and finding out that people kind of are dying are in different kind of points. So my struggle was because her arc kind of is a little. Her midpoint doesn't really hit in the same place as Dolly's. Dolly's midpoint comes right as she finds out, oh, my task, the thing that'll keep me at the school is to make this girl that I'm falling for leave. What? And so that kicks off her whole second act, but with Moira, it's kind of more of an escalation and then a drop. So I wasn't sure how to put that in the query letter if that needed to come earlier, which I'm very open to because it really. It kicks off lots of suspicions around the Dean and who, like this whole. As in this whole mystery element, which is so much more of Moira's plot. So that's where I was struggling with the query letter on where to put that in and how to put that in and whether it was too spoilery.
- [26:13]
Cece Lira
Cece, if it's third act, then, yes, it shouldn't be in the query letter, but it shouldn't be in the third act. I'm 100% sure of this. This is one of those situations Where I. I'm not going to be like, oh, maybe it's different for every story. It's not. This needs to move up in your story or else Moira's arc is going to be boring because nothing's going to happen to her of consequence up until the third act. And yes, fine, it's a duology, but so what? You want people to devour that first book, right? You want them to feel fully satisfied. So none of this, please. We're going to move up Moira's arc. She's going to find this out early on again, like you said, brilliantly. She's going to start the story with a very clear goal of getting her family back because her world has just been shattered. But then to do that, she needs to learn about the world. So she learns about the world and then she uncovers this massive thing. Oh, my God. And then the climax can be something that has that by then she's already figured out about the murders, already knows about the Dean's plan. I love the whole, like, commentary about AI in our real world, you know, Like, I love it. Brilliant. And the climax should match Dolly's. Like, I'm so sorry to be so prescriptive, but honestly, sometimes it's just better. So they have to match. They have to match. Oh, there's so and so book. It doesn't match. I don't care about so and so book. Like, I just don't care right now, you know? Like, do it in a way that's going to make feed the reader's brain greater chances of success. Just do it. Just try. And if you hate it, you can go back to the other way, you know? Like, I know it's a lot of work, but I can see this book coming to life in my head. And I don't say this very often.
- [27:39]
Bianca Marais
I firmly believe that the second act is where writers are made, because you can come up with a great beginning, you can come up with a great end, but that second act has got to be really excellent to join those two. So I'm. I'm really agreeing with Cece here. I also just want to point out we only have 16 minutes left, so I don't want us to get too much in the weeds here. Was there anything else you wanted to ask there, Kate, before we discuss the pages themselves?
- [28:04]
Kate Visser
No, just. Thank you. I have some really good places to go from here.
- [28:07]
Bianca Marais
Amazing. Okay, so we're going to ask Kate to please just summarize what's in the opening pages, and then we'll go to cece for her thoughts on them.
- [28:15]
Kate Visser
Okay, so to summarize, the pages. So I know this was a risk, but we start off with a prologue. And in this prologue, we open on a murder that's in progress. The characters are unnamed, but it's clear that there's a long history between them. They're only referred to as the woman and the body. The body apologizes to the woman who is the murderer. The murderer laughs, dismisses it. But her complicated feelings are revealed through internality. The murderer is standing over the body, watching, waiting for the person to die. And she reveals through internality that she is some sort of illusion. So there's that thread running through there. When the body finally dies, the woman gets some sort of power that comes in. We understand that they are in a place called Everstory. That's a school that is somewhat sentient. And that is the end of the prologue. The woman walks out. Then we go to chapter one, where we meet Dolly, who is putting on stage makeup for a high school performance of Les Miserables. We learn that she is a graduating senior. This is her final performance. And when she's putting on this makeup, she looks in the mirror, and she discovered that her face has changed. She now has transformed, literally, into her character. She's excited. She lets us know through internality that this is something that's happened before, but it's pretty rare. It's been a while. She's enjoying that moment. And then there's a knock at the door that snaps her out of it. She's annoyed. Turns out that it's a freshman. One of the members of the chorus who's coming to get her was sent by the director because her mom has arrived. This kind of sets off an emotional storm for Dolly. Her mom doesn't show up for things. She's feeling nervous about it. She's feeling frustrated in general, and that's where the pages end.
- [30:04]
Bianca Marais
Wonderful, Kate. Thank you. Okay, Cece, will you kick us off.
- [30:08]
Cece Lira
Given that we don't have a lot of time? I will focus on two things. The first is, your writing is excellent. Like, so excellent. Like, I was reading this prologue, and I was going, good job, Kate. I trusted your authority as a storyteller to carry me through the story, and I was really, really impressed by the quality of your writing. So. So thank you for working so hard on this. Okay, I want to talk about the difference between abstract curiosity and specific curiosity, or perhaps I should say concrete curiosity. So abstract curiosity is what you've. You're doing in this prologue. There's a curiosity seed that says it was almost over. Almost over, and she was one step closer to freedom. About time too. The past 18 years had certainly dragged. So the abstract curiosity is the protagonist is not free, she's on a quest for freedom. I don't know what that means though, right? So that's why I'm calling it abstract. Like it's not concrete. What does concrete curiosity look like? Like, one example is who did Delphine kill the Ballerinas by Rachel Kapelke Dale? Or where is Alfie in the book all the Other Mothers Hate Me by Sarah Harmon? Or what happened at the horse ranch to merit the police investigation Girls and Their Horses by Eliza Jane Brassiere like my point is concrete curiosity is so, so specific. There's still things we don't know because that's why it's a curiosity. But you're doing abstract. I don't think you should, given how you are pitching this, given the wide appeal I believe your story can have, especially after you blew my mind with that amazing arc from Moira. I think the prologue should have concrete curiosity and not abstract curiosity. I feel very strongly about this today. I'm in a very strong opinion sort of day, apparently. And so I think that like great job with the curiosity seed, but you need to dig deeper. So that's my two cents. I said I would only talk about two things, but if I could sneak in a third emotionally you're not going.
- [32:03]
Unknown Speaker
Deep like this spring, watching everything outside bloom. I'm also watching my kids blossom in their French immersion program at school. It's amazing, but also a big motivator for me, especially because we're headed to France next month. I want to be able to join in more.
- [32:18]
Carly Waters
You know.
- [32:21]
Unknown Speaker
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- [33:44]
Cece Lira
You're. You're on the surface and substack supporters will see what I mean. I highlighted the specific moments and I was like, no, no, no. Here's what I need more of. It's not that you're not giving me emotion. You are. But like, I want a deeper emotion. And I specifically prompted you with questions that will hopefully guide you into achieving those deeper emotions. Interiority is fantastic. Like, absolutely fantastic. So many writers on this podcast will have like a knock at the door and they don't theorize about who's on the other side. Huge red flag. They, when they see things, they don't zoom out and think about the socio emotional framework. You did it. Like, your interiority is amazing, but emotion, like, we need more emotion. So I highly, highly recommend going deeper. And now I will shut up.
- [34:23]
Bianca Marais
Thank you so much, Cece. Okay, we now handing across to Kali.
- [34:28]
Carly Waters
All right, my big picture is I'm excited for you and worried for you. And I'm going to tell you the two reasons why I am excited for you. Because you are a really good writer. Like, really, really incredibly talented. You are blowing CCNI away. And as you know, we see a lot of material, whether it's lush pile or whether on the show, you're incredibly, incredibly talented. Why I am worried for you, I feel like, as I said with the query letter, this is an octopus that you're trying to put to bed. You have tentacles going in all these different directions. I think it's a bit sci fi. I think it's a bit thriller. I think it's a bit fantasy. You have two characters with their own plots that are on massive journeys intellectually with their own stakes. If you can put this octopus to bed, you have an incredible project here. Like, really, truly incredible project that I really think is going to blow people away. But you have to connect the dots between what I'm worried about and what I'm excited about. And there's. I think there's obviously work to be done. You know, we haven't Seen the whole manuscript or anything like that. And, of course, you know, I hope it lives up to everybody's expectations. And I think cece's obviously provided you some notes, and I'm sure your critique partners. I don't know where you're at in terms of your editing process, so when you kind of chime in, like, let us know, like, are you. Are you done? Are you excited? We have agents that listen to this show, so, you know, give us. Give us the whole rundown about your hopes and your dreams for this.
- [35:50]
Kate Visser
Yes. Thank you. Just quickly, Cece. Yeah, the abstract thing, I was worried about that in the prologue. I was worried about it being too abstract, because it's a big spoiler if I give any, like, specific details or names and comes into play later in a big, big way. So I wasn't sure how to kind of balance that.
- [36:11]
Bianca Marais
Cece, did you want to weigh in on that? I mean, do you think that the. The prologue is doing its job, or do you think it's just too abstract, that it's actually worth taking out at this point if Kate can't make it more specific or concrete?
- [36:23]
Cece Lira
The job of a prologue is to do one, at least one of two things. Add mood and add mystery. It's a new layer to a story. I think yours should do both. The best prologues do both. Right now, it's doing the job of adding mood. If this were a quiet novel, I'd be like, keep the prologue. It's abstract. It's fine. It's not a quiet novel. So I think that you can keep it and add the mystery, the concrete, create curiosity, or remove it. But then I don't know what happens to your story's layers, because, being totally honest, the mood of the prologue, to me, matches the mood of your whole story way more than chapter one. And that's normal, because chapter one, the inciting incident, hasn't happened yet. So it's the picture of the hero before the inciting incident. So I think a prologue is smart, but you have to work on it. And I get what you're saying about spoilers, but, like, the alternative to abstract curiosity isn't spoilers. The alternative to abstract curiosity is concrete curiosity. Like, I gave you three examples. You can look at the books you love that have concrete curiosity. They are specific without giving things away. It's a balance. It's like walking a tightrope, right? The balance between withholding and revealing. But it can be done. The greats do it. So I would encourage you to work on it.
- [37:32]
Kate Visser
Thank you. And Carly. Yes. So my draft. So it's been through a couple of self edits already. I have edited through the entire manuscript a couple times and it's currently with my phenomenal beta readers, who I just adore shout out. So I'm waiting for some notes from them. I've. I submitted the pages to revpit, got some 10 queries notes, so those have been applied. So it is just waiting on those beta edits. And I've gotten pieces of that already. That's a suggest that it won't need too much more. Maybe another full one or two revision passes on my part before it's ready to go out. I hope you know I'm a bit of a perfectionist. So, you know, we'll see. We'll see.
- [38:20]
Bianca Marais
But Kate, can I make a suggestion there? If you're going to do what cece says and take what's in the third act and move it ahead, speak to your slower beta readers and ask them to stop reading at this point. Because once people have read something, it's very difficult for the same readers to keep recalibrating. So it would actually be very useful for you to get two different opinions. The people who saw it happen only in the third act and then people who only saw it happen in the second act and then compare those notes.
- [38:50]
Kate Visser
Yes, that's a really good idea. I will do that because I am definitely planning on doing that. And I can see, I think it'll bump up the mystery in a really nice way way and really can tighten the tension. Right now her arc is very. There's a very emotional arc and I really like the idea of kind of pulling the greater intensity further. And I can see some really interesting tension between her and her suspicions that'll come in and can be an extra fun layer on top.
- [39:25]
Bianca Marais
Did those answer all of your questions, Carly?
- [39:28]
Carly Waters
I think so, I guess, yeah. I mean, I'm asking questions like, you're already a published author on the show. I'm like, ready to get into it. But, like, are you feeling like you've accomplished what you set out to do? That's my question.
- [39:39]
Kate Visser
Okay. Yes, I think so. I think that I hadn't at first. My first draft, there was a lot in it that I liked, but I really needed to clarify. Well, Moira's arc, Dolly's always came more clearly. I think that given that there's so much going on in the background in terms of the backstory, there was always a difficulty on, okay, how much of this do I put in there? How much do I just keep in my back pocket to inform how I direct my characters, what decisions they make, how to guide their reactions. And I think. And I, you know, this is something where I'm really hoping that an agent will be able to have some of these conversations with me to kind of. Because I don't know what I don't know. I feel like it really hits some of those notes, and I feel like it's really. I'm very, very happy with it. This is the second novel that I've finished, so the second one I'll be querying, and I feel it is of miles different from my first one, which I didn't feel this way about, in that I can just see these arcs and how they intersect, where they intersect. And I feel like I was able to get that on the page. I'm open to that not being the case. I'm waiting to hear what my beta readers say.
- [40:54]
Carly Waters
But, yes, that's a good answer. I'm glad that you've had your experience, you know, something maybe didn't work as well, and, you know, the difference between what doesn't feel like it's working and what feels like it's working. So great answer. I'm excited for you. I think you got a really great career ahead of you.
- [41:11]
Kate Visser
Thank you so much.
- [41:12]
Bianca Marais
We probably have time for one more question, if you have any further. Kate.
- [41:16]
Kate Visser
I don't know. I'm just mulling on so many things that I'm.
- [41:21]
Bianca Marais
It's a lot.
- [41:23]
Kate Visser
Well, I think my brain is exploding a little bit right now as well, around just, oh, I'm going to just do so many different things and to see what I can bump up and move around. And so I think most of my questions, I know what I need to weave into the query letter. How to do that without adding a million words is always going to be the. The difficult piece. But, no, I think this has been incredibly helpful. I think my questions have been answered, I guess, in terms of the prologue, because it's hitting on the. So it sounds like it's kind of getting at the mood, which is exactly what I hoped my original issue with the first paragraph was. It didn't capture all of the rest of this stuff that's going to happen, and that's why I put it there. If I name the people, would that be too specific? Would that interfere with the mood? Because I was wondering if it was too vague there. And I guess, Cece, you may have already answered this a little bit. I think I was just wondering how to make it stronger And I guess part of that is going to be switching it to the more concrete curiosity. So, yeah, you may have already answered this.
- [42:33]
Cece Lira
I mean, naming people is one way to do it, but it's not the most common way to do it. Right. Like, I think that you might be falling prey to a common mistake, which is you're thinking opposite. You're thinking it's coin with two sides. I'm on the. On the abstract side, and my abstract side has no names. And so the concrete side necessarily has names. And that's just not how it works. You know, it's. It's this cosmic ball of fire and crystals and light that has a million angles to it, and you can turn it in a million ways. And it's not a coin with two sides. Right. Like, it's. There's so many ways to do it. Naming people is, quite frankly, not the most common, typically not the most effective. Of the three examples I gave you, two do not name people. In Rachel's book, she doesn't name anyone. In Eliza's book, she doesn't name anyone. So that's not how you create concrete curiosity necessarily. What I wanted to ask you, Kate, is are you willing to invest a little bit of time in going deeper in the emotions in your characters? Because I think. I think this is a big picture issue. Throughout your manuscript, we didn't spend too much time on it because, again, the notes will help you. But are you willing to, like. Are you nodding? You're nodding yes. Yes.
- [43:41]
Kate Visser
Oh, without question. I am already signed up for the class you are running later.
- [43:44]
Cece Lira
Okay. So I was gonna actually tell you. We'll connect after this. I want to make it available to you free of charge because you were, like, coming into this and being so brave and, like, sharing generously your work. And so we would like to, like, do this. We will never be able to pay back your generosity because, like, it's so brave of you to be here. But let's connect after this so that I can make that available to you free of charge, because I think that the potential that you have is so big. Right. But I don't. I'm going to be very honest with you. I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I don't think you're ready to query. You're not there yet. I know. I know you're not saying you are, but, like, you're close, and you're so close. You're so close that I can see the finish line for you. But the biggest mistake an author can make at the stage. And it's only the talented people who can make this mistake is thinking that you are there yet and then forgetting that last stretch. And that last stretch is the worst. It's the worst because you put in so much work already and you're like, an agent will help me. And don't.
- [44:36]
Kate Visser
The agent will not.
- [44:37]
Cece Lira
Even if you heard stories about the agent helping, just don't count on that. You're close, but you're not there yet. And what you have is really special.
- [44:45]
Kate Visser
Thank you so much. That's incredible, and I am so excited. I already could tell that that class was something that I needed to take. I've taken a few of your classes before, and they've all just been incredible. So I really appreciate that. And yeah, I have that sense, too, that it's done a lot of what I was hoping to hit, but there's more that I want to kind of squeeze out of it. It's that kind of stuff, squeezing the orange thing, and I'm like, I want. I want even more of the juice. So I feel like, yes, that would be incredible. Thank you.
- [45:20]
Bianca Marais
Amazing. I think we'll end on that high note. It's always wonderful when we finish with an author who does not want to curl into the fetal position and lose the will to live. So yay for all of us. Okay, Kate, thank you so much for joining us. Cece and Carly, thank you so much for your incredible insights. Join us next week for our author interview and then books with hooks again after that. These notes will go out in Tuesday's substack, so make sure you subscribe to that to get them. Have a good one, everyone. Bye.
- [45:49]
Unknown Speaker
A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written.
- [46:00]
Carly Waters
Notes for the Folsom picture.
- [46:01]
Unknown Speaker
Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at PS Literate Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our substack newsletter. Get our Stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more. You can find it@theshitaboutwriting substack.com that's the.
- [46:39]
Bianca Marais
Shitabout writing substack.com and that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.
- [46:55]
Cece Lira
Hello listeners, this is cece. I am so excited to announce my next course, Writing Emotion and Relationship, an all new mashup of two of my most popular classes revamped with fresh content starting on June 19th. This is going to be a four day event, so come prepared to take lots of notes. We'll cover active versus passive emotions, how to effectively show versus tell most common mistakes in writing, emotions and relationships, and obviously how to get it right, types of relationships and how to leverage each one in a story, emotional and relational makeups and arcs for protagonists and other characters, how to create chemistry between characters, different genre expectations, and so much more. Oh, and did I mention there's an interactive component? That's right. Everyone who is registered will have the option of sending an excerpt of their work work for a chance to have it critiqued live during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend. There are limited spots though, so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend one or more sessions live. The recording will be sent to everyone who's registered 24 hours after each class. Once again, this is a four day class, Writing Emotion and Relationships, beginning on June 19th. For more details, check out the link on my Instagram bio or head over to the podcast's website. I hope to see you there.