← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Delving Deeply Into Your Antagonist's Psyche
00:44:37
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
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- [00:00]
Cece Lira
Hello from cc. I'm so excited to announce an all new class called Starting It Right which is all about how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. Now this is going to be a four day class so come prepared to take lots of notes. We'll cover the different types of beginnings and how to choose the best one for your story, how to frame your inciting incident in a compelling way, common mistakes writers make when starting a story, how how to balance exposition and mystery, how to make readers connect with your protagonist and how to make the reader want to turn to the next chapter and so much more. And guess what? For the first time ever there will be an interactive component to my class. Everyone who is registered will have the option of sending in the opening scene of their work for a chance to be critiqued during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend and there are limited spots so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend one or more live sessions because the recording will be sent to everyone who is registered. This class will begin on March 20th and like I said, will go on for four days. For more details, check out the link in my bio on Instagram. I hope to see you there.
- [01:19]
Bianca Murray
Would you like to win an appearance on Books With Hooks so we can discuss your work while you're on the show with us? If not, no worries. You you can choose a whole other prize. We're hosting an awesome giveaway in which you get to choose your own prize because in my upcoming novel A Most Puzzling Murder, I pay tribute to all the choose your own adventure books I loved so much as a child? So how can you win and be guaranteed an exclusive invite to a zoom discussion between Cece and myself as we spill all the behind the scenes tea on how this book came to Life. There are two easy steps. 1. Go onto Goodreads and add Most Puzzling Murder to your want to read list while entering the Goodreads giveaway for the book. 2. Share a screenshot of your entries on socials using the hashtag amostpuzzlingmurder so we can find your entries to put them into the draw. The winner gets to choose one of four fabulous prizes according to how they'd like their adventure to end. Further details on the rest of the prizes and the links to enter are in the 20th of February's show notes and on our website under the Giveaways tab. You have until the end of February to enter. Winners will be announced on the 3rd of March. Good luck. Hi there and welcome to our show, the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and cece Lira from P.S. literary Agency. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Bookswith Hook segment. As per usual, we are going to dive straight in. Cece, I'm going to hand it across to you before your query. I think you have something to tell us.
- [03:10]
Cece Lira
I do. So if you're a longtime listener, you.
- [03:13]
Know that the most common note we.
- [03:15]
Give on the podcast is this isn't starting in the right place. Which is why I'm so excited to announce a new class I'm teaching on March 20th. That's called starting It Right. How to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. So I've been preparing for this class for years and there's a lot of content to cover. So we're going to be together for four days. Four days of me rambling. I'm so excited, especially because there's an interactive element. Everyone who is registered will have the option. It's totally optional to submit their opening scene for a chance to have it included. Among the examples of what people are doing right, what people are doing wrong, I've figured out the most common types of beginning the most interesting ways to start a story based on various various books. And so this is a toolkit that will empower you to figure out the best place and the best way to start your story. There are limited spots, so if you're interested, check out the link in my bio and sign up. I hope to see you there. And now let's go to today's query letter. Okay. Dear Cece, hello Cece, Carly and Bianca. I've been a fan of the show for years and I'm excited to finally have a query I can share. I'm sending it to CeCe because of her manuscript. Wishlist said she was looking for atmospheric horror and the screenplay, which I wrote, has been compared to Dracula with the atmosphere of Jaws. Anywho, below is my 309 word query for Sag Harbor. Sag harbor is a 61,000 multi POV period Gothic horror novel, a reimagining of the legend of the Demeter that blends atmospheric dread with sharp human drama. Fans of Netflix's Midnight Mass and Elizabeth Kostova's the Historian will feel at home in this tale of vengeance, love and the monsters we bring ashore. Seven years after the whaling ship Shark's Maiden vanished without a trace, it resurfaces off the coast of Sag harbor, battered and empty, except for Daniel, a man with fractured memories, and the vampire who spared him. The villagers gathered to mourn the shark's maiden are awestruck when Daniel arrives in a lone rowboat. But awe soon turns to fear as a strange illness sweeps the town, claiming lives and stoking rumors of a curse. Daniel, unable to explain the fate of his crew, becomes the town's scapegoat. Elizabeth, Daniel's wife, refuses to believe he's the cause. With a broken pastor clinging to the shards of his faith and a witch cursed by a bloodline tied to the undead, Elizabeth sets out to un the truth. When they discovered that Daniel was not alone on the ship, the group must face the vampire that followed him home. Time is running out. The villagers are hungry for vengeance, and the vampire is coming for Elizabeth. Sag harbor is my debut novel, though its story began as a screenplay, which was a finalist in the Crimson horror competition in 2018. I'm a horror screenwriter by night and traveling CT tech by day. When I'm not writing, I'm spoiling my two pot bellied pigs, herding six rescue cats, or doing battle with the husky fur that seems to haunt me no matter how much I clean. Thank you for considering my submission. I'd be thrilled to share the manuscript and explore how Sag harbor could find its place on your list. Sincerely, Frank Besser thank you so much, Cece.
- [06:37]
Bianca Murray
I know Frank was kind enough to tell us his word count there after the preamble. 61,000 words. I'd be interested to hear what you think about the word count on on this, but take it away with the rest of the critique.
- [06:49]
Cece Lira
Yes. Okay, so from the top 61,000 multi POV, it's, it's a challenge to be able to accomplish that. Especially because multi POV could mean, like, it could mean, I don't know, 10, 4, like it could mean anything. Right? So when I see this, I'm always a little skeptical. Now we can always be proven wrong. The thing about being an agent is that you realize very quickly that rules can be broken really well by a talented author. And so I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm just saying it does give me pause because how many words are we going to spend with each character? I guess it depends ultimately on the execution, but it is something that I think most people are going to go, I wonder if he can pull this off. Which is why your opening pages will have to be extra, extra strong to show us that with very few words, you can dive deep into someone's psyche and really keep the momentum going. So when it comes to the comps, the historian is a really old comp. Personally, I don't mind comps that focus on the story. Editorial comps, they don't have to be like, salesy, as in, they don't have to be from the last five years. They can be movies, stuff like that. Because I can work with my client on finding the right comp when it's time to submit to editors, but many agents don't feel that way. And so you might want to find something that was published a little bit more recently. It's obviously up to you, right before you begin the plot paragraph. So the paragraph that starts with seven years after the whaling ship, I would include the year there. So I would put whatever the year is, 18, whatever it is. I only know it because I've read the pages. But before I got to the pages, I was like, I don't know where we are in time. Like, I know it's a period piece, but I really want to know. Because depending on where we are in history, it could really change the dynamics of the story. You know, everything about our society changes depending on the time period. Not just stuff about, like, how we deal with the supernatural, but also, like, the role that women played in society, the role that women were expected to play in society. You know, how marriage worked, all these things. And they do inform a story that has at its heart a couple. Right? Because we do have Elizabeth and Daniel. So to that point, when the paragraph that started with Elizabeth, Daniel's wife, refuses to believe he's the cause, I was like, wait, I don't understand. Like, is it Elizabeth's story? That was my question. I guess I was a little confused because at first I did not think that was the case. I thought this was Daniel's story. And I know it's multi pov, right? But, like, who's the main, main character? And I thought Daniel was going to propel this forward, but afterwards reading the last plot paragraph, I'm convinced it's actually Elizabeth's story. So if that's the case, I would rewrite the plot paragraphs to always be focused on her. Like, have her be the sun and have everyone else be the orbiting planets. And when it comes to the major dramatic question, right now you have the group must face the vampire that followed him home. Time is running out, the villagers are hungry, and the vampire is coming. I would prefer it to be a little bit more plot specific. So Right now, it's too big picture. Like, what does the villagers are hungry mean, plot wise, and a ticking time clock is great. But, like, how does it apply? Is it because. Here's a silly example. You know, they know based on the curse that if the vampire is in town for more than. I'm just going to see a number here, seven days, then he will become invincible. So they have to kill the vampire before the seven days or else. Right. And by the way, when we started with Elizabeth's journey, Daniel disappeared. You know, the only reference to Daniel was the fact that he was on the ship and not alone on the ship. But, like, my question is, is he captured? Is he not helping her? Is he sick? Is he turning into a vampire? I just wanted a little bit more plot clarity. And I think that I imagine. I don't know, but I imagine that one of the reasons why the author didn't give us that is because, like, no spoilers. So the rule is everything before the story's climax is fair game in a query letter. But then you stop at the climax. Right. Because you don't want to give away those spoilers. So that's something to think about. And yeah, I really enjoyed your author paragraph. So thank you for sharing.
- [10:59]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, we're handing it across to you now.
- [11:03]
Carly Waters
Okay. So I can see why you wrote this as a screenplay and then you adapted it to a novel. You know that you are very committed to this story, and it is a great hook and a great story. So I can see, as a creator, as an artist, as a writer, that you're trying to find an entry point into this story. I think one of the issues is what cece mentioned, which is, whose story is this? Like, there's obviously in a play, there's going to be a hero character or a central figure, a main character that we follow. But it's kind of the same way with anything we're going to watch visually, whether it's a play, a musical, or a film or a television show. There's, like this ability to pan and zoom in and zoom out and like this omniscience. You know, there obviously there's all these narrative techniques and other forms of storytelling, but I think we have an issue here, which is, whose story is this? Who has the secrets, who's doing the reveal? Because if you're relying too much on the visual elements of this, it's. It's potentially not going to work as a novel. But this is an incredible hook. As I said, you know, at the beginning so there's something here. I don't know if we've nailed what the something is in terms of, you know, as Bianca said, like, what's our way into the building here? I don't know if we figured it out, but. But I love it. Like, if I was. If I was in the mood for a Gothic horror, I'd be like, I'm going to request this because it's really unique. I do think the hook stands out. And as I said, a query letter's job is to get an agent's attention, and I think you did. That said, there's a ton of questions. I'm so confused about whether both boats show up at the same time, because you say the villages are gathered to mourn the Shark's maiden, the boat, and then awestruck when Daniel arrives in a lone rowboat.
- [12:39]
Bianca Murray
Did.
- [12:39]
Carly Waters
Did the shark's maiden original boat come back at the same time as Daniel, or did these boats come back in different times, like, decades apart? Like, I have no idea. And this is what Cece is talking about when we have to ground ourselves in history here. I'm a little bit concerned about the word count. 61,000 words, because it's multi POV. As Cece said, that means we don't have a lot of time to spend with these characters. I don't have a problem with a short novel, but if we. When we have to do so much in a short amount of time, that's kind of when we might run into some issues here. You know, I have another line which was I wrote like, I don't know what this means. A line with a broken pastor clinging to the shards of his faith and a witch cursed by a bloodline tied to the undead. All of it, in theory, sounds great. I have no idea what's happening right now. Why is the pastor clinging to the shards of his faith?
- [13:28]
Bianca Murray
Did the vampire.
- [13:28]
Carly Waters
Cause this is the pastor also now a vampire. I just have a lot of questions, but again, all of this is very interesting, and as I said, I'm. If I'm in the market for a gothic horror novel, I'm totally interested in this. And I would definitely be scrolling down. I do, and Cece already brought this up, but I'll just echo. I do wonder at the end of the query letter, you know, and the vampire is coming for Elizabeth, period. Is that the inciting incident? That could be the inciting incident. Like, all of this could have just been a preamble, and we're only at the inciting incident, or are we at the Climax. Again, I have no idea, because I'm not really sure what the scope of what we're trying to accomplish here is. So I think things like giving us a time and place, giving us a ticking clock, these sorts of things, and being a bit more definitive about when all of this is happening, because saying something like seven years after, like seven years is a long time. So I just. I guess I'm not spatially aware enough of what's happening in this query letter to get as excited as I want to be. But yeah, those are, are. Those are my rambly thoughts, as always.
- [14:31]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Yeah, from my side, you know, it makes sense that something that has been adapted from a screenplay to a novel is going to be on the short side, word wise. Because again, screenwriting is everything visual, it's everything dialogue. And remember, a novel has got to be about interiority, emotionality. But the great news here is it's so much easier to add words, to expand a novel and to bring that interiority to life than what it is to try and take words away afterwards. So just something to keep in mind there. Okay, Cece, what was in the pages?
- [15:04]
Cece Lira
I just want to quickly say that's not always true. I've actually worked with writers who have the opposite of what you have be. So you have. I write too much and I have to come back. Some people are like, I don't know how to dig deep. So anyway, this is just. This is just me saying it depends on the person. And it's not easy, easier for everyone. But it's a challenge that we must all face. Okay, so now that we're on YouTube, you guys are going to be able to see my notebook. I read from my notebook. When I summarize the pages, listeners, you have no idea what I'm talking about. Okay, so we have Rory. He's the harbor supervisor, looking out into the harbor, missing his son who disappeared seven years ago. He's drinking and he's looking at a photo of his son. So he. He flings an empty bottle of whiskey, but it makes no sound. And when he looks down, his heart stops. And then, you know, that chapter ends. We have chapter two, Elizabeth's point of view. She's brushing her hair and thinking about her husband's disappearance and the ship, you know, when they got married, the last image of him, etc. And then chapter three, we have very, very little on chapter three. So that's the pastor, and basically he's a broken man. We only have a few lines on that, but we can tell He's a broken man.
- [16:16]
Bianca Murray
Okay, Cece, thank you. So it sounds like it's nice short chapters, which I think suits the genre and certainly keeps the story, you know, pacing over. What was your take on them?
- [16:27]
Cece Lira
Okay, so I think that a few things are working here, and I do have notes on how to improve as well. So what's working really well is scene clarity. I am always aware of where I am in scene. You know, who's in the scene, what's happening, and that's. That's a really impressive thing to be able to pull off. And to Bianca's point, short chapters, we do live in an age where people have the attention span of moths. So, yes, hooray for short chapters. This is also really interesting and really well done. I also, you know, could tell that the writer put a lot of time and effort into the writing on a line level to make sure that it was polished and flowing appropriately. So good job on that, too. Like I said, I have two notes. So the first note is, like I said, in the most common note, I don't know that you're starting the right way. I actually think that starting the story before Daniel arrives is smart, because we know from the query letter Daniel's about to arrive. So that, to me, is smart. But you have Daniel's father, Rory, thinking about Daniel, and then Daniel's gonna appear. You have Elizabeth thinking about Daniel, and then Daniel's gonna appear. I think you see where I'm going with this. It's a little on the nose, you know, like, it's a little too plot convenient. Like the storyteller. Right? The creator is like, I need to show people that, you know, they really care about Daniel. You're anxious. You're like, I really want to make sure my readers know that Daniel is beloved and people miss him. So I'm going to have people thinking about him. It's just too obvious, right? Like, I think that you need to pick a different thing for these people to be doing that's not as passive and that's not as slow, because even though the chapters are short, I was like, I just don't think the pace is working here. Having Rory be sad is just not super juicy or curiosity inducing, to be quite frank. It's a very harsh reality of storytelling, is that it's one thing to write a scene that has a protagonist feeling deep emotion that makes us feel empathy. It's a totally different skill to write a scene in which the protagonist is feeling a deep emotion that makes us feel curious. Empathy and curiosity are not the same. Just because you are able to accomplish one does not mean you're able to accomplish the other. And right now I'm feeling empathy, not feeling curiosity. So I would revise, I would change this beginning to do your story justice. And then. Okay, my second note in Elizabeth's point of view. We have again, Elizabeth gazing into the old mirror, brushing her hair. And she's thinking about Daniel. You know, she's thinking about their. Their one night as a married couple, a night she'll never forget. His smell, his warmth. And then there's a direct thought in italics. And the direct thought reads, stupid boys and their desire to chase adventure. To me, this line is a really good opportunity to talk about something called cliches. Right? Like everyone knows what a cliche is. And in my opinion, this direct thought in italics is a little cliche. What do I mean by that? This is a woman who's thinking about her husband and you are taking an opportunity to go directly into her thoughts. And the thought that we hear is stupid boys and their desire to chase adventure. We have to go deeper if you want to highlight that element, the element of a woman thinking about how boys, in this case, I guess men are a little silly to want adventure and to not care about safety, to not worry about risk. That is interesting or that has the potential to be interesting, but you have to go deeper. Is she tying this to the other male figures in her life? Her father, her brother, her cousin, I don't know. And how they're all like this. Is she thinking about how when she got married to him, she loved this about him. She was so attracted to this quality. But then, of course, she now realizes after the disappearance that, you know, that was naive of her. Is she thinking, man, I wish I were had been born a boy, because in this world only boys get to live adventures. Is she thinking, oh my God, I'm so glad that's not my situation. I just need us to go deeper. And I know that someone's thinking, well, but that would compromise the pace. No, it wouldn't. There are ways to do it that you spend one line, maybe two, and you go deep, but you don't actually use up a lot of words. If you study the books that are masterpieces, they all do it. It's depth, it's psychological acuity, it's socio emotional framework. It's going deep inside someone' psyche to avoid that cliche. You know, I don't want just a stupid boys and their desire to chase adventure. I want to know how she specifically Views that. Because my opinion on that is completely different from another person's opinion on that, on boys desires to chase adventures. So that's my note on cliche. Thank you for sharing.
- [21:18]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Certainly, in terms of elements of surprise, you know, you're always saying opening pages need to surprise us. And if you do have two characters thinking about a specific character who then shows up, that is not surprising. So you do want to try and figure out how you can have an opening in a way that is curiosity inducing, but that also sets us up for surprise. Okay, handing over now to Carly.
- [21:44]
Carly Waters
All right, so where do I want to start? Let's start on the line level. So I felt like, you know, I was reading the first line and the first chapter, the first page, like I always do, that we definitely weren't starting in the right place in terms of the first paragraph. So the first paragraph has to go. So anybody that has access to our line notes will be able to see all of my line notes, so they'll know what I'm getting at. So I think we should start with the second paragraph here if we are going to keep this. And that is a big if with an asterisk, because I felt like everything that I read was essentially just a repetition of itself. You know, we get the dad, and then we get Elizabeth, and then we get the pastor. And really all that's being communicated to us generally is the sadness of the town, the, you know, impact of this event on the town. And we just haven't, in my opinion, made it kind of past a certain level of grief. And I think there's also some sections where I feel like we're explaining things to people. Like, I mean, I don't want to say that everybody knows where Sag harbor is, because they might not, but there's a paragraph that literally explains what Sag harbor is. Right? Small fishing town, eastern point of Long Island, New York, just west of Montauk. Made its living from the sea, a town so famous for its whalers that Melville even mentioned it in Moby Dick. If a ship sailed to the seven seas in the 1860s, they encountered ships from Sag Harbor. But your book is taking place a decade after Moby Dick. So I'm like, the way that you're trying to frame your own understanding of your book within the context of culture was really confusing to me. And so that felt like we were pandering a bit to the reader. And so I'm going to be honest with you. I think all this needs to be scrapped. Like I think this is such an interesting idea, and I absolutely do not want you to, like, interpret this as me telling you to give up, because I'm not. I'm saying you have an excellent premise, you have an excellent hook. These pages are absolutely not doing it justice at all. And I think on a line level, I think there's a bit of that newbie ness that we talk about sometimes where it takes three sentences to say what you want to say. And so, you know, for an example here. So the opening. The opening paragraph that I was talking about says, all loss is profound, but some scars are deeper than others. Some losses forever etched into the soul avoid eating away until there is nothing left but a shell of a person. Nothing cuts deeper than the loss of a child. In my opinion, the only thing that's important here in terms of information is he's upset about the loss of the child. Like, I scrap the rest of that. But the next paragraph, much better paragraph, says, neither the passage of time nor the countless bottles of whiskey helped Rory forget that his son had disappeared seven years ago. Boom. That's your first line. The heavy fog was Rory's drinking partner. High above the harbor on the Whalers church lookout tower. As the harbor supervisor, Rory spent many days looking out towards the horizon on the Atlantic, watching every ship return except the one he desired the most. Like, those are beautiful lines. And so you compare that paragraph to the first paragraph. To me, it's night and day. So I'm just. I'm just feeling like this is a newbie writer getting their Bambi legs under them, trying to figure out, like, what's the way forward here. So there's some really beautiful parts. And so I obviously, you know, tried to highlight that as much as possible, but I also highlighted the things that absolutely stand out in a negative way. Right. Like they're pulling me out of the story. So I think we have a lot of questions here about what's telling, what do we need, what's actually advancing the story here? Because to me, it was just a whole lot of repetition mixed in with some really beautiful lines. So I think it's just, you know, I'm having a heart to heart with an author who is not here, but if you're listening to this, you know you have something here. I just don't think this is it.
- [25:20]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Two things that I just want to mention there as it relates to our newsletter. So Carly refers to the critiques for those of you who are paid subscribers. Just remember that the books with hooks critiques go out every second Tuesday in every second Tuesday's newsletter. You will find it in the Substack app, you will find it on the Substack website and you will also get an email that comes out to you with the critiques there. So that's where you will keep finding those critiques. Secondly, something that Carly said now made me think of an upcoming segment that we have a video actually in one of our newsletters with Christina Clancy who talks about a writing technique that she was taught by one of her professors in which to take out the last sentence out of every paragraph because she just used the last sentence of every paragraph to just summarize what she'd said before. So that's something to look out for as well. Please do not just use our newsletter for the books with hooks critiques. There is a wealth of information there that writers, best selling authors, award winning authors are sharing with you on a weekly basis and that can help you with your craft. So please check that out as well. Right before we move to our next query letter, let's hear from our sponsors. Okay, great. Right, Carly, can we hear your query letter please?
- [26:47]
Dear Carly Waters, I'm seeking representation for.
- [26:49]
Carly Waters
My dual perspective psychological thriller novel Kill youl Darling feelings complete at 80,000 words. As a huge fan of your podcast, I have chosen you as the agent.
- [26:58]
Bianca Murray
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- [29:06]
Carly Waters
To help you get started.
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Bianca Murray
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Carly Waters
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Bianca Murray
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Carly Waters
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Bianca Murray
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Bianca Murray
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Carly Waters
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- [30:29]
Carly Waters
Manuscript to you as stated in your agency profile that you have an interest in domestic suspense and thrillers and your endorsements fill me with confidence that my novel would be in the best hands. My novel Kill youl Darlings melds the desperation of a failed writer found in Gene Hanoff's Corlitz's the plot with unhinged obsessions in Caroline Kepnes's yous, Caleb Penman, a struggling writer, snaps after receiving one too many rejections from querying his manuscript. He becomes dangerously obsessed with junior literary agent Josie Silverstone.
- [31:01]
Bianca Murray
Driven by his longing for success, he.
- [31:02]
Carly Waters
Takes the advice Josie has offered him on how to make his narrative feel more authentic too literally. He becomes the killer he writes about in his new novel, suddenly able to convey his experiences in their rawest form. When he resubmits to Josie, she's captivated and requests the full manuscript. As she reads, she starts to wonder if Caleb is responsible for a string of murders currently broadcast all over the news, and if so, is she going to be the next victim if she doesn't accept his manuscript? The first 500 words of kill youl Darlings were highly commended in the November 2024 edition of the UK's writing magazine. The novel has also recently been shortlisted for the Marlo and Christie Novel Prize. While writing my next book, I'm a mother wrangling two under two and pursuing a BA Honors in English Literature and Creative Writing through Open University. I run a popular Bookstagram page called Boho Bookworm where I share my passion for literature. Please see attach the first five pages for your consideration. I will happily send you the full manuscript upon request. I look forward to hearing from you.
- [31:58]
Bianca Murray
Soon and wish you a lovely day.
- [32:00]
Carly Waters
Further Sincerely, Jade Wright thank you Carly.
- [32:03]
Bianca Murray
Wow. They're coming for the agents, man. They are coming for the agents. I love it. Okay, what was your take on that?
- [32:11]
Carly Waters
Okay, so it clocked in at 333 words approximately. So I did a little research here because I thought kill your darlings. As we all know, this is a common saying that has been used many times, probably on this show, if not, you know, a hundred times. I don't know how many times we've said this. So it's common. This is a common phrase. So I looked it up. Unfortunately, there is a New York Times bestselling author named Peter Swanson, who has a book coming out in 2025 with this title, and it includes writers and murders. So, unfortunately, you're probably gonna have to, number one, look at a retitle, and maybe, number two, look at that book a little closer, because I just did a cursory glance at that. So I'm just letting you know, in terms of comps, the next thing I want to say is, I wish this was a unique hook, but I have seen this version of this type of book. I've seen this hook pitched to me many, many, many times. And sometimes books about publishing and writing and agents can be really inside baseball, and sometimes they can break out into the mainstream market. You know, there are books about publishing that can be successful. You know, yellowface, other black girl. But these books are also trying to say something larger about publishing and culture. So it is hard, in my personal opinion, to break out a book about writing. And again, these are my personal thoughts I've talked about. It was on the show before, because I work in this business. Maybe it's just too close to me. So, yeah, so I'm finding so far, those might be a couple hurdles for you. I'm a little bit confused about what POV we're in. You know, you're using you as a comp. Carolyn Kepnes is you. So are we siding with him at any point? You know, are we supposed to be challenged? Is there an unreliable narrator piece? I guess I'm just a bit confused about how we're supposed to frame and understand him as a character. I'm assuming he's the main character because, you know, you open the body paragraph with him. So I don't know. I just wasn't quite sure how we're supposed to feel about him other than the ick factor. And I will talk about ick factor in a second. But you also end with a rhetorical question. So I would also advise us to not use rhetorical questions. Okay, coming back to the ick factor, I will be perfectly honest with you. What you're describing is I'm going to be vulnerable with you. This is literally my worst nightmare as a literary agent, having an author come after me with, like, literally, like, my. My, like, blood pressure is rising as I think about it, because I know I have an agent friend who was attacked by a disgruntled writer, and they found where she was. She was with her kid, and they physically and violently attacked her. So this is something where, like, this is deeply upsetting to me, and I understand this is a plot and this is fiction, but, like, this is my life, so. So I have a huge ick factor here. There could be agents that are able to look beyond this. There could be editors that are willing to look beyond this. But you're pitching me and I'm just giving you my flat out thoughts, which is like, I unfortunately couldn't work on a book on this topic.
- [34:59]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. I'm thinking of other books that involve publishing at the moment. I know Emily Henry had one that had, I think, an editor in it or a literary agent.
- [35:10]
Carly Waters
Yeah. Book Lovers was an agent character.
- [35:12]
Bianca Murray
Yeah.
- [35:12]
And I'm just thinking Gillian McAllister's latest has got a literary agent as well, and that her husband is involved in a hostage situation and she finds that out on television. She's going to be on the podcast soon, so we'll interview that as well. So. Yeah, yeah. But obviously the way you write about it is dependent on how the agent's going to receive that. So, cece, let's hear your take on it now in terms of how triggered are you by the premise? Because we are trying to show that this is subjective and agents might react differently or maybe they do react the same. So let's hear your take on that and on the query itself.
- [35:49]
Cece Lira
So I will start by echoing what Carly said about this not being an original premise. I remember the first time I got a query letter in which the premise was an author goes after a literary agent. And I remember being like, oh, my God. And everyone around me was like, this happens all the time. Just get used to it. And. And it does. It's. It happens all the time. Which doesn't mean that it can't be an interesting premise if you develop fit with originality and with a fresh angle. And obviously if you work on the execution. But maybe you already know this. Maybe you're like, yes, I know it's not an original premise, but that's fine as long as I execute it with originality. If that's the case, then cool. In terms of the triggering, I. I mean, listen, I am a weird human. I am able to read about things that trigger me, with the exception of animal stuff. And even then, I can think of certain books, like Good Rich People, Good Morning, Monster, where I just got over it. So I would. This would not deter me from reading your book. It does scare me, not gonna lie. I've received one time a threat that was very graphic from a writer, and it was very, very disturbing. So I'm not trying to make light of the situation at all. Again, Because I am a weird human. I would still read something just despite the fact that it triggered me. I. That's just who I am. I think, though, that the. The issue here to me is that I don't get enough on the plot in your query letter. Like, again, going back to pure curiosity, right? Because at the end of the day, what we do is we are seekers of curiosity inducing stories. That is what every agent wants. Every agent wants to feel curious all the time. Every reader wants to feel curious all the time. And we have an author who submits to an agent, and the agent is reading the pages and is thinking, oh, my God, he's connected to the murder. Okay, so she goes to the police, right? Isn't that what's gonna happen? Like, she goes to the police and she gets protection. And, like, why is that not an option? Because I'm assuming it's not, or else the story is too easy. Does she love the story? Like, to me, it would be much more high stakes if she signed him, he became a bestselling author, and then she had to decide whether or not she turned him in. Although even then, I still don't think it's quite enough. But my point is, I don't think you've developed the plot in the query letter enough. I don't know if you've actually developed it in your execution. I don't think you've developed the plot in the query letter enough to have it be high stakes. You know, it's not curiosity inducing enough for me. It just feels like a big leap. I. I actually highlighted the last line, and I was like, is this the story's climax? You know, like, because it's like, is she gonna be the next victim again? She has a manuscript by a person. He's not anonymous. She knows who he is. Just. You can. You can do something about it, is what I'm saying. So, again, I do not like when I have to say to people on the show, I am not curious. Because to me, there is nothing worse you can say to an author. Seriously, it is the worst thing you can say to an author. I was not curious, but I wasn't. And I have to say it. I have to be honest and be like, I'm not curious. We can talk about the execution when we discuss the pages.
- [38:59]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. All right, so, well, let's go to the pages now. What was in the opening pages? Do you feel like she started in the right place? And let's take it from there.
- [39:09]
Carly Waters
All right, so we start with chapter one. It says Caleb.
- [39:12]
Bianca Murray
So we're in Caleb's point of view.
- [39:14]
Carly Waters
We start with. It says chapter one. I think it could be read as a prologue. But, you know, obviously I don't have all the pages, so I can't fully assess that. But so we. We start our opening pages where our Caleb character is out kind of in some sort of, like, farm country, and he is basically out in the rain. And then we figure out that he is staring at Josie, the literary agent, through her window, and she does not know that he is watching her. And so it's. I. I'm not going to get into critique yet because I'm like. I kind of do, like, the distance here, but anyway, so then slowly he gets closer and closer. I think she recognizes that there is a threat. She grabs a knife, and then it seems like he walks away. And then he goes and sits down at a bench somewhere in town, pulls up the rejection letter that she had sent him, kind of reads it again, and is titillated by the personalized letter. And that is basically where it ends.
- [40:17]
Bianca Murray
Okay, great. So what's your take on it?
- [40:19]
Carly Waters
Okay, so kind of going back to what I was saying was I think there's an interesting level of distance here in terms of the watching, and then, like, what does each other know? Like, it's written in a kind of an interesting way. But I kind of think this is a prologue. I don't know. We can obviously discuss this, because I just don't know where we're going from here. To me, this is just a really dramatic place just to start when we don't. I guess I'm just wondering, like, where do we go from here? If we know that she knows that there is somebody who's watching her enough to grab a knife, then, like, are we starting at the point. Like, we're starting at a point of physical danger? And I guess what I don't understand is kind of what Cece was getting at before, which is, why doesn't she call the police? Because if you are so threatened that you have to grab. You see somebody watching you out your window, you grab a knife, and then we. Again, it's in his point of view, so we don't know what she's doing. But he goes into town and sits on a bench, and this is out in the country. So you think, like, you could find a man that's out running around, like. And it seems to be darkness. So, again, yeah, I just don't understand. And why isn't he. If he knows that she saw him why isn't he more worried about escaping the situation so that he is not scene when she does call the cops? Because again, a human reaction would be to call the cops. Unless again, this is why I think this is a prologue because the reason that I think that she potentially doesn't call the police is that she knows more than we're being told obviously in this story. And I also want to. And I didn't speak to this in the query letter. I also want to honor the fact that like British thrillers are also written in a very different way. And so I do get this like British thriller vibe. You know, you're checking the box there of like this is incredibly creepy and there might be so many twists and turns and layers that like I'm not seeing at this point. But that's why I think this is a prologue is because I think that she might know something more which is why she didn't call the police. But yeah. So anyway, I made some notes about like where I think things are a bit heavy handed but it's very hard for me to say whether this is the right place to start or not without knowing more information. But I, yeah, I have a huge question mark around why the police wasn't called.
- [42:26]
Bianca Murray
Thank you. Carly. This makes me wonder if it wouldn't do better to begin in it was this multi pov, this novel. No, we don't know.
- [42:36]
Carly Waters
We don't know. I think it's not because it just starts like Caleb Penman, like in the query letter. But then at the end of that paragraph it says as she reads she starts to wonder if Caleb is responsible. So. Yeah, but it. So it must be dual POV because it's a first person Caleb.
- [42:54]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. Which makes you think it's. It is dual pov, in which case you can drop a lot more curiosity seeds if you start in her POV and she looks out the window and sees somebody and is about to reach for the phone to call the police but decides against it and doesn't tell us immediately why she decides against it. And we like curious. Interesting. There is something happening here and there's a very good reason why she's not doing it. But I mean that's not to say, you know, change it up there. Let's Cece's take on that.
- [43:24]
Cece Lira
It did not occur to me that this could be a prologue. But now that you're saying it, Carly, I think you're right. And that does explain the big question of why isn't he nervous that she saw him? Why isn't she running to call the police. Okay. Because we're further down the story. We're probably going to go back in time. Like, I don't actually know this, but that would explain it. So if that's the case, cool. That's not the case. This is actually chapter one. I am deeply confused. Deeply, deeply confused. Here's. Here's my take. And I'm going to sound like an unstable human, but hey, if the shoe fits. This reads like a sane person's idea of what an obsessive person sounds like in their head. I am calling you sane, so yay. But it's just like, I am not buying any of this obsession. It is super generic, you know? And. And this man is the least self aware human on the planet. I get that we're not supposed to like him, but I am supposed to be curious about him. I'm supposed to see layers, vulnerability, contradictions. And how could I possibly do that with lines like, what she's searching for is boldness, sophistication and passion. My book and I embody all of these qualities. So why did she turn me down? I'm genuinely stumped. Did he not research publishing? Is he not aware of how competitive it is? Does he not think anything about his book needs improvement? Does he have beta readers, critique partners? Like, I'm just. His lack of understanding of how this industry works is honestly making him sound unintelligent. And listen, if you want me to get behind a serial killer, they better be very intelligent. Very, very, very intelligent. They must be brilliant. They can be a total mess, a sadist. Fine, I can get behind that. But they must be a genius. And he's sounding honestly dumb.
- [45:13]
Bianca Murray
Can I jump in there, cece, and just say what happens if she's trying to write a narcissist? Someone who's got very little self awareness, Somebody who's got. Who's not going to bother to look at the industry, who thinks he's so incredible that anyone would be lucky to have him. So let's say that's how she's trying to position him. Then what would your advice they be?
- [45:35]
Cece Lira
To not start with that, then to have that come later, to have a scene in which he is interacting with her or with someone else, I don't know, at a bookstore. And he's being super charming. Narcissists are very charming. So he's being very charming. He's, like, helping her out. Like, maybe someone is being rude to her and he steps in and he's gallant and he's brave and he calls people out. He does something that a typical human would not be brave enough to do. Right. And later we'll find out, oh, it's actually because he's, you know, delusional. But fine. In the beginning, I'm just like, oh, man, this man's charming. You know, and it's not like you're hiding this part of him from us in an artificial way that's just not front of mind in his point of view. If you are starting with his point of view. So. And then at the end. At the end of the scene, the shift is. He's actually darker. You know, there's a very old movie with Jennifer Lopez, and it's about domestic abuse. And I forget the name of the movie, but when she meets the guy she falls in love with, he's a charmer. He's like, oh, my God, you know, like. And you're, like, swooning. And then very quickly, we learned that he's a horrible, abusive person. But you need to fall in love with his other qualities first. And to anyone listening, oh, my God. Are you saying abusive people have qualities that would make you fall in love with them? Yes, I am. They do. It's how they can get away with abuse. You know, it's just human nature. So if that's the intention, then you have to shift the order of things. You're starting with the. The on the nose interiority. I did not believe it. You know, in no moment did I go into your story and again, mean. I sound so mean. I know that. But I need to forget that I am reading a book. I need to think that I am in someone else's head. And I didn't, because I don't think you're going deep into his head. I think you're writing about an obsessive person without having done research on what obsessive people actually are like. Or. Or you're so anxious about context. Let me tell the reader context. So the reader knows he's horrible.
- [47:37]
Carly Waters
But.
- [47:38]
Cece Lira
But that's the wrong way to go about it.
- [47:40]
Carly Waters
Yeah. And I think with your comp, like, you chose you as a comp, which is a excellent comp. It's very. It's very intriguing. But I think you have to think about the difference between you, the way that you opens, whether we're talking about the show or whether we're talking about the book, and the way that your novel is opening and the way that we think about Joe Goldberg. And that's kind of what I was trying to get at when I was Talking about the query letter, I'm like, what. What is it about this guy that's compelling? Right? It's not necessarily like likable. It's. Is there some reason that we're on their side? You know, I don't want to spoil you for other people. I guess it's been out for a while, so I can't spoil it. So it's like sixth season, but like, there are things that he does where you're like, he did what he did for a reason. And not that you agree with the reason, but you understand there was a reason. And this character is so self serving that Joe does things often that are self serving, but he also does things that are not self serving. And so that. So that's what I'm getting at. Like, I think we're just missing a layer here. And again, we only. We have such limited samples, so we're critiquing like, you know, just like crumbs compared to the whole cookie. If we can use one of Cici's cookie analogies. So we know that there's obviously so much more to come here. But those are just our first takes.
- [48:49]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, yeah. And it's so difficult to write this kind of protagonist. I tried it a few years back and I obsessively studied you to try and figure out why was I rooting for this guy from opening pages, you know, and just read it over and over and over again and picked Caroline Kepnes's brain on the podcast about it. So go back and listen to that as well. So you are giving yourself a very, very difficult job here. I love it. As writers, we. We challenge ourselves and remember everything that we say is said with love and with the deepest hope that you can polish it and present it in a way that does the story justice so that an agent is immediately going to grab it. Carly and cece, as per usual, thank you so much for your critique. They will be back in two weeks time for the next books with hooks. Join us next week for our author segment. Bye, everyone.
- [49:41]
A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the fulsome picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at PS Literate Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by.
- [50:00]
Carly Waters
Carly and Cece on this podcast are.
- [50:02]
Bianca Murray
Solely that of them as podcast co hosts and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that.
- [50:10]
Carly Waters
You can support us as a show.
- [50:12]
Bianca Murray
Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Tell your writing friends about us Us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our Substack Newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more. You can find it@the shitaboutwriting.substack.com that's the.
- [50:31]
Shitaboutwriting.Substack.Com and that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.
- [50:47]
Cece Lira
Hello from cc. I'm so excited to announce an all new class called Starting It Right which is all about how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. Now this is going to be a four day class so come prepared to take lots of notes. We'll cover the different types of beginnings and how to choose the best one for your story, how to frame your inciting incident in a compelling way, common mistakes writers make when starting a story, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to make readers connect with your protagonist, and how to make the reader want to turn to the next chapter and so much more. And guess what? For the first time ever, there will be an interactive component to my class. Everyone who is registered will have the the option of sending in the opening scene of their work for a chance to be critiqued during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend and there are limited spots, so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend one or more live sessions because the recording will be sent to everyone who is registered. This class will begin on March 20th and like I said, will go on for four days. For more details, check out the link in my bio on Instagram. I hope to see you there.
- [52:06]
Bianca Murray
Would you like to win an appearance on Books With Hooks so we can discuss your work while you're on the show with us? If not, no worries, you can choose a whole other prize. We're hosting an awesome giveaway in which you get to choose your own prize because in my upcoming novel A Most Puzzling Murder, I pay tribute to all the choose your own adventure books I loved so much as a child. So how can you win and be guaranteed an exclusive invite to a zoom discussion between Cece and myself as we spill all the behind the scenes tea on how this book came to Life. There are two easy steps. 1. Go on to Goodreads and add a most puzzling murder to your Want to read list while entering the Goodreads giveaway for the book. 2. Share a screenshot of your entries on socials using the hashtag amostpuzzling Murder so we can find your entries to put them into the draw. The winner gets to choose one of four fabulous prizes according to how they'd like their adventure to end. Further details on the rest of the prizes and the links to enter are in the 20th of February's show notes and on our website under the Giveaways tab. You have until the end of February to enter. Winners will be announced on the 3rd of March. Good luck.