Emotions—But Make It Messy

Summary

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Emotions—But Make It Messy
Release Date: June 26, 2025
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Waters, CeCe Lyra
Guest: Casey Keira

---

Episode Overview

In this episode of The Shit No One Tells You About Writing, host Bianca Marais welcomes author Casey Keira for a special session of the Books with Hooks segment. Joined by literary agents Carly Waters and CeCe Lyra from P.S. Literary Agency, the trio delves into Casey's debut novel, The Break of Light. The discussion centers around the intricacies of crafting authentic emotions in storytelling, ensuring plot clarity, and enhancing character development to resonate deeply with readers.

---

Query Letter Read and Initial Reactions

The episode kicks off with Casey Keira presenting her query letter, outlining the premise of her novel The Break of Light. The story follows Eve, a 17-year-old Irish teen with crippling anxiety, as she embarks on a perilous quest across worlds to rescue her best friend, Dani, from a realm filled with old gods and elemental magic.

Notable Quote:

"[Casey] ... 'I write this story as a reminder that being afraid doesn't mean you're not ready.'”
— Casey Keira [00:42]

Bianca praises the succinctness of the query, especially noting the effective world-building achieved in just 374 words.

---

Detailed Feedback from CeCe Lira

CeCe begins by commending Casey's ability to introduce information subtly, drawing parallels to professional sports where skill appears effortless.

Notable Quote:

"It would make it feel like seduction. And you have that gene, so it is very impressive."
— CeCe Lira [14:30]

However, CeCe points out that Eve's emotions appear "vanilla" and predictable, encouraging Casey to infuse more complex and "messy" emotions to add depth and intrigue.

Key Points:

• Emotional Depth: CeCe emphasizes the importance of portraying emotions that characters might not be proud of, such as envy or possessiveness, to make them more relatable and intriguing.
• Story Shift: She inquires about the shift in the story's direction, questioning whether the emotional beats lead to significant plot developments.

---

Detailed Feedback from Carly Waters

Carly commends the visceral and dramatic writing in Casey's sample pages but raises concerns about the scene's conclusion feeling "too bookendy," potentially reducing reader curiosity to continue.

Notable Quote:

"I couldn't wait to see what happens to her because I thought she's resilient. She just barreled down a hill on a bike and got up..."
— Carly Waters [19:46]

Key Points:

• Plot Progression: Carly suggests adding more surprising or consequential actions to maintain reader engagement.
• Character Motivation: She urges Casey to delve deeper into why Eve needs to save Dani, linking it to broader themes like anxiety and personal growth.

---

Author's Responses and Clarifications

Casey acknowledges the feedback, explaining that Eve's seemingly "vanilla" emotions are, in reality, underpinned by deep-seated anxiety and fear of losing her best friend. She clarifies the chosen one trope in her narrative, where Eve's initial goal to rescue Dani evolves into a more complex relationship with her guardians, who become minor antagonists.

Notable Quote:

"Her arc is somewhat learning to change, learning to embrace these things that terrify her in order to save her friend, and then probably making some major sacrifices along the way."
— Casey Keira [07:18]

Casey also reveals that additional narrative shifts occur later in the story, introducing speculative elements that signify a tonal shift in the narrative.

---

Discussions on Emotional Depth and Character Development

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around enhancing Eve's emotional complexity. Both CeCe and Carly advocate for portraying a range of emotions beyond anxiety, such as jealousy, possessiveness, and fear, to create a more multifaceted protagonist.

Notable Quotes:

"Messy emotions are non negotiable... You should dial up the messy emotions."
— CeCe Lira [28:51]

"There's so much happening inside this character's body that you have not unleashed in a way that I think she is too tidy."
— Carly Waters [30:40]

They discuss how messy emotions can stem from Eve's fear of change and losing her friendship, urging Casey to showcase these feelings to foster deeper reader connections.

---

Sample Pages Analysis

Casey provides an overview of the opening pages, depicting Eve and Dani riding bikes along an Irish cliffside. The scene establishes Eve's anxiety and her efforts to push her boundaries to keep Dani from leaving for college.

Notable Quote:

"As Dany readies to leave town for college, Eve will do anything to convince her to stay. But her plans place them in the path of a mysterious portal..."
— Casey Keira [02:51]

CeCe commends Casey's subtle introduction of characters and conflict but suggests enhancing Eve's internal reactions and power dynamics to add more depth.

---

Final Thoughts and Next Steps

The hosts collectively agree that while Casey's writing exhibits strong foundational skills, incorporating more intricate emotional layers and ensuring plot causality will significantly elevate the story. They encourage Casey to revisit certain scenes to better showcase Eve's turmoil and motivations.

Notable Quotes:

"She did have a period of time where I was going to start the characters at the edge of the cliff and skip the bike scene entirely... But ... that bike scene portrayed all of the things that Eve loved about Dany."
— Casey Keira [31:11]

"Don't hold back, unleash your protagonist."
— CeCe Lira [32:41]

Casey expresses appreciation for the feedback, acknowledging the need to deepen Eve's emotional portrayal and consider previous drafts where Eve's frustrations were more pronounced.

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Bianca thanking Casey for her participation and acknowledging Carly and CeCe for their insightful feedback. Listeners are encouraged to engage with future segments and submit their work for critique.

---

Overall, this episode offers invaluable insights for emerging writers on the importance of emotional authenticity and the delicate balance of plot and character development. By highlighting the necessity of "messy" emotions and ensuring plot points drive the narrative forward, Casey Keira's journey serves as a practical example for writers aiming to craft compelling and relatable stories.

---

For more episodes and writing tips, visit The Shit No One Tells You About Writing.

Transcript

[Cece Lira]

Foreign.

[Bianca Murray]

Welcome to our show, the shit no one tells you about writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Books with Hook segment. This is a special one because we have the author joining us on the show. Welcome, Casey, Keira, hi.

[Casey]

Thanks for having me. It's really nice to see you all in person.

[Bianca Murray]

It's wonderful to have you here and we get to pick your brain and ask all the questions, so it's going to be awesome. Can you please start us off by reading us your query letter?

[Casey]

Will do. Dear Bianca, Cece and Carly, this podcast has been an absolute wealth of knowledge and I cannot thank you enough. Today I humbly ask your feedback on my debut novel, which I hope will appeal to Cece's love of messy characters and intense female friendships. The Break of Light follows a cowardly hero on a rescue mission that spans Worlds. At 72,000 words, this coming of age fantasy marries the contemporary voice of Legendborn with the world bending magic in the Book of Living Secrets. Life is changing too fast for Eve, an Irish teen with crippling anxiety. At 17, the only thing she's sure of is her best friend, Dani, the one person who inspires courage in her. As Dany readies to leave town for college, Eve will do anything to convince her to stay. But her plans place them in the path of a mysterious portal and a horde of vicious otherworldly attackers that kidnapped Dany. To save her, Eve must travel to Alteras, a realm of old gods and elemental magic. Here, towering beasts walk, land and see, and the trees threaten to ensnare you in your sleep. Most terrifying of all is Madagan, the shadow wielding huntress that holds Dany prisoner. Unable to rescue her alone, Eve enlists the help of two prickly warriors to act as her guardians. But their protection comes with a price. Eve must join their fight against Madagan. She throws herself into training, desperate to secure Dany's freedom. But the more she learns about her guardians, the more she suspects they will never let her leave. While Dani's life hinges on the whims of a madwoman, Eve battles sirens, shadow wolves and her own self doubts. Failing to adapt will seal the fate of her best friend, but succeeding may trap Eve in this world forever. I work in marketing and spend most days spinning stories that sell, even if what we're selling is literally rubbish. I volunteer at my local writers centre and with Hawkeye Publishing, who long listed this story for their manuscript development Prize. I have grappled with anxiety my entire life. Now, supported by a wonderful partner and two freakishly adorable cats, I write this story as a reminder that being afraid doesn't mean you're not ready.

[Bianca Murray]

Awesome. Love that. Could you give us the word count before I hand across to Colleen?

[Casey]

Cece, the word count for that one is 374 words.

[Bianca Murray]

Wow, that's pretty low considering we needed world building. So well done on that. Okay, Cece, I'm handing it across to you first. What we'll do, Casey, is once Carly and Cece have both given their feedback, will come back to you with your opportunity to answer their questions or ask questions of your own.

[Cece Lira]

That was such a good read. Congratulations. Okay, I'm going to share questions I have about the plot paragraph based on lines you wrote, and then I'm going to zoom out and share, I guess, a big picture question. There's a line that reads, the more she learns, the more she suspects they'll never let her leave. And I'm wondering, do we need to understand why she's suspecting this? Is that relevant to the plot. Plot at all? Maybe you can tell me that later. And then the line after that, it reads, while Dany's life is hinging on, you know, the whims of a mad woman, Eve is battling, like, shadow wolves, sirens, etc. I worry that sentence hints at a lack of causality, of dominoes tipping over, because you're saying there's this one thing happening. At the same time there's this other thing happening, which are like the satellite plot points that don't give something a story feel. So I'm wondering, you know, I'd like to know a little bit more about your story to know whether we can fix that, because I do think that that will elevate your query letter further. There's also, like, the line that leads to the climax. Failing to adapt will seal the fate of her best friend, but then succeeding might trap her. And I'm like, what does failing to adapt mean? And is it intentional that essentially, like, in both options, she's losing because in one, she's failing to adapt, and the other one, she's losing her friend or is. Did I not understand that Guess like to zoom out and to ask you a question. Let's see if I understood the story arc. So we have Eve, who's a misfit, and her only solace is her best friend. And then her best friend is held prisoner in a different world, so she goes there to save her, and that's a Very clear goal, save her bff. The problem is that she needs help because, you know, there's a power imbalance between her and this mad woman who's holding her best friend. So she enlists help of two warriors, but then, plot twist, they're actually a threat. They're not friends. So now the goal is to free herself from these people and to save her best friend. So she has two goals now, and I don't understand whether, is it one or the other? Like, is the only way to save her friend, to commit to these warriors and their cause? Is it a story of sacrifice for love? Is it a different story? I guess I'm not sure I understood the arc as well as I would have to. And I know that it's really hard with world building, but the way I read it, I don't understand both the causality and also, like, what's actually at stake in terms of the choices.

[Bianca Murray]

I actually think this is a good point to go straight to Casey before we move on to Carly. So, Casey, if you would like to respond to cece on that.

[Casey]

Okay, so you're right on the money. It is a story of sacrifice for love. And the little bit of context that isn't in the query, which is probably important, is that the reason that these warriors are willing to help her is that they see her as a sort of chosen one, classic chosen one figure. And so their goals are for her to basically take up this mantle against their enemy, whereas Eve's goal is to just get her friend and get the heck out of there. So she's running with them in order to learn the skills and information to rescue her friend. But there is a certain point where their goals diverge, where they don't want her to go home with her friend, they want her to stay. So they sort of begin as allies, but their goals separate, and they end up as a sort of minor antagonist. And as for the failing to adapt, a lot of Yves arc comes from her anxiety and a fear of change, which is a lot of. At the beginning of the book, she's terrified of her friend leaving for college, and then, of course, she loses her friend to a much more severe situation. So her arc is somewhat learning to change, learning to embrace these things that terrify her in order to save her friend, and then probably making some major sacrifices along the way.

[Cece Lira]

Cece, thank you for that. It's really helpful to know there's a chosen one element I do think that needs to be there. I think that's actually really essential to the plot. I Also think. And again, I might be overstepping here. You feel free to ignore me. But I think in order for this arc to make sense, her goal is to save her best friend. Unlikely. Alliance. Alliance is actually a plot twist because they're actually a threat. This is chosen one element. And then she needs to think that she's gonna trick them. You know, she's determined to save her friend and save herself, but then plot twist and something's missing there. Do you know what I'm saying? Because. Or else it's too easy. Or else she is going to want to both save her friend and save herself. And if the only climax question is, will she sacrifice herself for love? Without any other plot twists, I worry there won't be enough to hold the world. So it's something we can talk about later, brainstorming wise, if you want.

[Bianca Murray]

Thanks, Cece. I think what we'll do now is hand it across to Kali and then we'll come back to Casey. Kali.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I was kind of listening intently while you guys were debriefing that. So my main note, if we want to focus on the main stuff, is why? Why does the world matter to her? Like, the world only matters in the context of her friend. But at some point, I'm thinking of Narnia. I'm thinking of Acotar. Right? It's like they get into the world unknowingly or they don't know. They go for one thing and then all of a sudden it switches. And then they become really invested in the world and fighting for the world. And so do we get to the point where she then decides she wants to fight for this world? Yeah. Okay, that's what I thought. So I think you. For anybody that is listening and not watching on YouTube, she's nodding. So that's what I think is missing, right? This idea that. That somebody can be called to this higher power, the chosen one thing, and then they understand what it's all for. And I think this is a metaphor, as you've spoken about, for the anxiety, right, for getting yourself into situation, maybe not understanding your power stepping power and then being able to see that maybe if you can't succeed in the real world because of anxiety, you can go to this magical world and then you become powerful. Right? And yes, she's. She's smiling and nodding along. So, yeah, I think that's the piece that we're missing is why does she want to fight for this world? How does she become so integrated into this world that she can't imagine her life without it. And then again, what's the twist and how does it all change? So this might be spoiler. And maybe this is some of the vague stuff that you kind of suggested. You know, failing to adapt will seal the fate of her best friend. Succeeding may trap even this realm forever. Meaning that because she's the Chosen One, she has to remain in this world. And then she would leave, potentially her friend behind if she was. Again, if Dany was to escape. So I think you did a really good job of simplifying your plot in a very. Which sounds very complex, but I would just want to know, as I said, the Acotar, the Narnia thing, right, where it's like they get into this world and then how do they become so integral to the world that we can't imagine this world without them? That's the kind of thing that I am curious about.

[Bianca Murray]

Okay, back to Casey.

[Casey]

That is some really astute notes there. Interestingly enough, though, the Guardians kind of end up a minor antagonist. They are the deciding factor for Eve deciding to remain in the world with not doing too many spoilers. But the sort of crux of the matter is that the sacrifice that she makes in order to assist her Guardians, in order to save their lives, if they end up in a bit of trouble towards the end of the book, actually cuts her off from her home world. So that is the major decision that she has to make. So I do think while she does have some moments of finding love for the general world, the biggest draw is these two characters that act as her Guardians. They kind of become strangers to friends, to enemies, back to friends, and it's a very complicated relationship.

[Carly Waters]

But that sounds great. Yeah, that sounds great.

[Bianca Murray]

Can I ask a question for Carly and Cece? Like, in terms of her character arc, can Casey say things like, in this new world, her anxiety falls away as she starts to grow into her powers or whatever? Because I'm assuming that's part of this world. Is that all the crippling anxiety that she had in the old one is now done away with in this new world as she gains powers, etc, or is it not necessarily something that you want to see in terms of plot development and character arc?

[Carly Waters]

Personally, I don't want to get into the anxiety piece because I could glean that from reading your query letters. So then I don't think you need to spell it out, because then that falls into the category of I don't like talking about themes and spelling out metaphors personally, because I think that I could glean that from this. I Guess what I am concerned about. The more that we talk about this is you actually haven't talked about Dany very much, and Danny is the reason she goes into this world. And then you haven't really talked about Dani at all since we started picking at you to give us information. And so the reason she goes into the world is potential. Is it the reason she leaves the world? Does she stay in the world again? You don't have to answer this if you don't want to spoil things, but I'm a little bit worried if we're spending so much time about Dany and then it turns out she's actually not as important in the end as we thought. Or maybe this is the start of a series and we're kicking off on a big journey. That's the some of the things I'm thinking about.

[Bianca Murray]

So my question, Casey, is this definitely single POV in terms of just the one character, or is it multi pov?

[Casey]

It's definitely single pov. It is just Eve's pov.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, Carly's question does make sense then, in terms of Danny. So something to think about. Okay, we now need to move on to the pages themselves. So, Casey, can you give us an overview of what's in the pages?

[Casey]

Will do. So the story opens on an Irish cliffside by the sea. It's a picturesque scene, ruined only by the fact that our protagonist, Eve, is terrified. She and her best friend are preparing to ride their bikes down the steep walking path that lines the cliffs. We learn that this plan was Eve's idea and that this is hugely out of character for her. Eve is also internally preoccupied by some upcoming mysterious deadline, which may be the cause for her behavior. Dani goads her on. They've clearly known each other for a long time. When a cop arrives to yell at them, the two launch off, racing down the hill on their bikes. Eve starts out terrified, but as the ride continues, she begins to relax and lean into the exhilaration. The race comes to a crashing halt when somebody steps onto the path ahead of Eve. She swerves to avoid them and almost falls, but manages to stop herself before the cliff edge. The person who caused the crash turns out to be Danny's boyfriend, Lucas. We learn that Lucas and Eve do not like each other and appear to be keeping a very fragile peace for Dani's sake. Lucas is there with several other classmates who are cliff jumping to celebrate the end of high school. Dani tries to convince Eve to join. Lucas implies that Eve is too afraid to, which upsets Eve. Despite clearly being True. Dani points out that the summer is almost over and implies that soon she and Eve will run out of chances to hang out like this. This line of thinking seems to convince Eve. And the scene ends with our protagonist looking out over the nerve wracking job, trying to summon up the courage to jump.

[Bianca Murray]

Okay, thank you so much. Right, we're going to hand across to Cece. What were your thoughts there?

[Cece Lira]

I think the first thing I want to talk about is if a storytelling gene exists, it would be a gene that gives people the ability to introduce information without making it feel like explanation. It would make it feel like seduction. And you have that gene, so it is very impressive. I'll give you an example. You didn't say when we met Lucas, you didn't say. And a lot of beginner writers would do this in front of me. Was Lucas my best friend's boyfriend and ruined the whole tension. You made him cause an accident. There was a paragraph where the unnamed. He was introduced through emotions. And then through dialogue, we find out it's Lucas. So any Substack supporter, please go check out these pages. Go check out my highlights. It's subtle. It looks like the easiest thing in the world when you read it, but it's so hard to write. You know, it's almost like watching professional players do sports, whatever. Sports. I'm not a sports person. Like, it looks easy, right? When someone's like dribbling a basketball and shooting the basketball or whatever people do with basketballs. But it's actually really hard to do. You know, when you see someone who's skilled at something, do something, it looks easy, but in reality it's quite hard. So congratulations. Like, this is something that's really hard to teach. Really, really hard. And you have it. And that puts you ahead of the game, right? So that's awesome. Here are my notes where I put on my Grinch hat and tell you things that I think need to change. So number one, this is your fault. I want to begin by saying this. You promised me. You promised me messy characters. Her emotions are very vanilla. They're sweet. They're predictable and sweet and predictable. So sorry to say, sounds mean. It doesn't make me curious. Like, I want messy emotions. Messy emotions are emotions that people are not proud to feel. Envy is the most common and possibly the most effective one. There's room for messy emotion here, given the story setup that you've woven. Right. And I want that. I want her to go deeper into these emotions. I absolutely think it's non negotiable. Right. Now she's very tame. It did read like ya. And given her age, maybe that's your intention. I still think, like, I am a big believer that it doesn't matter. It could be ya, it could be adult. It could be anything. Messy emotions are non negotiable. It's, you know, the way you frame them might change, but it's really, really important. And the other thing I want to talk about is the markers of starting in the right place. So there are a few markers that I look for. Do I understand her current position in this world? I do. I think that we could have a little bit more fleshed out on the power imbalance, but I do understand her current position. Is there a disruption there? Is Lucas causing the accident? I do think her reaction needs to be clearer. Internal reaction, not external reaction. Is there revelation of greater power dynamics? Not quite. I learn about the competition between her and Lucas, but I still need more. Like, I need more depth there. And what about the shift? The shift is missing the shift in story, forward expectations. Maybe we haven't gotten to it because we're only. We only read five pages. We didn't read the whole scene. So maybe you can tell us if there is a shift at the end of the scene. But I'd be really curious to know.

[Bianca Murray]

Okay, we'll head over to Kali, and then after that we'll come back to Casey. Kali.

[E]

All right.

[Carly Waters]

I really liked the writing. You know, even from the second line, it says, you know, she should have faked an illness. Better yet, she should have forced an.

[E]

Illness, licked door handles.

[Carly Waters]

I mean, like, I loved that because it's so dramatic. Like, somebody clearly didn't want to be there enough to lick door handles. Like, just so absurd and ridiculous. So I really, really liked that. Very, like, visceral writing. I had some really small notes for you. Like, for example, like, if you are riding a bike downhill, it says she forced her legs to pedal. When you're riding a bike flying downhill, you're actually not moving your legs at all because the bike's doing the works. You're actually not pedaling. You're just kind of like. Like, you know, try not to, like, tip over so she wouldn't be pedaling her legs. I definitely loved the moment. I mean, very sad for her when she falls. But I love the way you wrote it. She hits the ground in a tumble of limbs, each bump striking like a baseball bat. Right. It's not like the baseball bat was hitting her. It was like the way that she was hitting it felt like baseball Bats. I thought that was brilliant. I was a bit confused, though, when she got up, because I was like, this was a very serious accident. So I don't really understand how she got up. I was a bit like, what are the logistics here? This seems very serious. And then at the end when she's. She's up, she's, like, looking at the cliff. To me, it just felt like a repeat of what we just went through, which is she was at the top of the hill going through all these emotions, you know, with the anxiety and the pressure of, like, I don't want to do this. And then at the end of this, of these five pages, again, she's looking down at the water, having all of those feelings again. So I felt like, in some ways, this was a short story, you know, it was like this happened, and then, like, we just have this, like, closure. So I wasn't really curious to keep turning the pages because I thought, this is a nervous friend, you know? And I wasn't like, I wonder what's gonna happen? Because we just. You made it too bookendy almost for me. It wasn't like. And this is a consequence of only having you send in five pages, because, again, I understand that the book goes on, but I only have access to five pages.

[E]

So I. I don't know.

[Carly Waters]

I just wasn't as curious to be like, okay, what's gonna happen next? Because, like, she survived. I almost feel like you're not proving your thesis, because she was nervous and she was anxious. She did the thing that she didn't want to do. She survived, and she, like, dealt with her friend's annoying boyfriend that she doesn't like. And now she's looking over the hill, being like, oh, should I jump over this cliff now? Like, I don't know. I just didn't feel like there was enough surprise. Even though the writing is so good, I wasn't like, I can't wait to see what happens to her. Because I'm like, well, she's resilient. She just barreled down a hill on a bike and got up like, our girls got it, you know? So that was kind of how I left those pages. I was like, I wasn't as curious enough to turn the page, not in a writing way, in a what's this girl gonna get up to? Kind of way. But that's just my take.

[Bianca Murray]

Thank you. Carly, Cece, coming back to you. Was there anything you wanted to add before we hand over to Casey?

[Cece Lira]

Yes, I forgot a note. Sorry. My earphones disconnected mid session. People who are watching us on YouTube will see that I now have different earphones. Yes. So as I was reading the pages, she and Dani are riding their bikes, and then she's like, can we just not do this? And then Dani's like, it was your idea, Right? So it was a protagonist's idea. Why did she come up with that idea? What specifically is she dreading? Like, is there a way to preview it without giving too much away? It's clearly out of character for her to suggest this. Right. And her best friend is, like, in her right to be like, this was your idea. So I kind of wanted more interiority on that. And I think that if you adjust that, a lot of the other notes I gave you might fall into place.

[Bianca Murray]

Thank you, Siti. Okay, handing across to Casey, you can either answer questions or ask them yourself.

[Casey]

Well, the first thing I want to say is that's high praise from both of you, so thank you very much and for your questions and your feedback. I'm so sorry to have misled you on the vanilla emotion, Cece. My explanation for it is that the messy emotions I was referring to and the part of why she makes this out of character decision to ride the bikes is, in my mind, she is not okay with Dani leaving soon. And in kind of a sneaky, manipulative way, she has a sort of a set of steps she's taking to try and convince Dani to stay. Like, we're doing all your favorite things where, you know, I'm letting you do this, I'm doing this for you. All of this stuff that she would normally be too afraid to do, that she's pushing herself out of her comfort zone now in order to sort of prove that their relationship can't be broken. They need to stay together. And then when that fails and she realizes that Dani is still going to leave, they have sort of a big fight. So that was where the messy emotions were coming through in my mind. But I also do think that that's something I should probably hint at a little bit more at the beginning. And I definitely understand what you're saying, Carly, about it being too bookended and being sort of the same thing twice. I did have a period of time where I was going to start the characters at the edge of the cliff and skip the bike scene entirely. But for certain reasons, I felt like that bike scene portrayed all of the things that Eve loved about Dany, which was that she did push her out of this comfort zone. And whereas she might sit at home normally terrified of the world because of their friendship. She gets to go out and experience things and this is, this is the emotion that she is chasing. This is why she has to rescue her friend.

[Bianca Murray]

Can I just ask a question? I'm putting it out there and you can be like, no. In terms of the messy emotions, is Dani really just her friend? Does she have.

[E]

As I'm recording this, I am mentally packing for France because we are leaving in two weeks.

[Carly Waters]

It's finally here.

[E]

Are you planning a trip this year? Imagine how much richer your travel experience could be if you could speak French in France. With Rosetta Stone you gain the confidence to have real conversations and create deeper connections wherever you go. Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you naturally absorb and retain your new language on desktop or mobile, whenever and wherever it fits your summer schedule. The idea that my French is getting stronger just in time to Flaneur de la Musee et les Parks. I am so excited. With 30 years of experience, millions of users and 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish, French, German, Japanese and more, Rosetta Stone is the go to tool for real language growth. You can learn faster and retain longer. It immerses you in your new language naturally, helping you think and communicate with confidence. There's no English translation so you are truly learning to speak, listen and think in your chosen language. Language is designed for long term retention so it's going to stick with you. It is perfect for your pronunciation. They have a true built in feature called True Accept speech recognition technology providing real time feedback helping you sound more natural. You can learn anytime, anywhere. Rosetta Stone fits in with your lifestyle. Flexible on the go learning on your desktop or mobile app. If you have five minutes or an hour and there's incredible value, you can learn for life. A lifetime membership gives you access to all 25 languages so you can learn as many as you want whenever you want. Don't wait. You can unlock your language learning potential now. The shit about writing Listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com today to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to RosettaStone.com today and start learning today.

[Bianca Murray]

The feelings for her that are more romantic beyond just being friends that would complicate these things. Or no, it's just her friend who she loves very much in a platonic way.

[Casey]

It's probably on on the edge a little bit. I definitely think it can be read as romantic, but it is not written or marketed as a queer story.

[Bianca Murray]

I mean, Carly and cece, in terms of your thoughts there, does it have to be marketed as a queer story in order for the main character to have more than platonic feelings for her best friend? Like, am I complicating things here? Because I'm just thinking, when you think of messy emotions, you know, you come into a scene that looks pretty straightforward. The one friend has a boyfriend, the other friend, they friends. But, like, maybe there's an undertone of something there. I don't know. What do you guys think?

[Cece Lira]

I actually think it's more interesting if she's not romantically attracted to. To her friend. Because messy emotions can exist in friendships, female friendships especially. Very, very. I don't even know the word. Like, intense. Intense is a tame word, and I think that makes it more interesting. If that's not the goal here, then I wouldn't. I just wouldn't veer into that territory. I don't think you misled me, though, Casey. I think you just gonna be honest. I think you're not allowing your character the depth that you. You have created them with this depth, but then you're not writing them with this depth, because you just explained to me the emotion she's feeling. That's all messy. That's possessiveness. That's deep jealousy. That's like wanting to control her friend. And the power dynamics are really interesting because it's all based on social currency. It's not like one of them has more money and controls the finances of the others. And that just makes it messier and more interesting. So I actually think you should dial up the messy emotions. Not because I am, like, a freak who wants messy emotions. Although, yay. Do it for that reason, too. I think you should dial it up because she's feeling that. She's just not feeling that in the pages right now. Like, don't be afraid to go there. Underneath every single messy emotion. If someone's feeling jealous, if someone's feeling controlling, if someone's feeling possessive. Underneath that all is fear, right? Like, there are two active emotions in storytelling. Fear and desire. And how do you convey it? Through some type of surprise. If you dig, dig, dig, dig, dig. The reader will interpret the root emotion, which is fear, and that'll make her seem vulnerable. And I'll root for her because I'll know that she's actually hurting, but she's trying to control her friend because she's so desperate, you know, because she doesn't want her friend to leave. And that needs to be sprinkled in in a very subtle yet clear way. And those layers need to be peeled and peeled so that I'm fascinated by her. It really helps. I think you're focusing on the anxiety and you're doing that really well, but I don't think that you're focusing on the so called ugly emotions, honestly. And I encourage you and I encourage all storytellers to know, not shy away from emotions that we as a society have taught our kids. Like, that's not nice to feel that way. Yeah, it's not nice, but it's super interesting, you know, Like, I want to read about that. I do not want to read about characters who are so nice all the time and so kind all the time and live in the fairy land with the unicorns. Like, that's just very boring, you know? Like, I don't want that. Nobody wants that, in my opinion. So you've created a story setup that's fertile soil for this. Usually when I'm talking to an author, it's like, well, your story setups, there's just not enough. And I'm so sorry, but you're gonna have to go back to the drawing board, in my opinion. With you, it's like, no, just unleash your protagonist. That's what I think.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I will. I'll echo that. Like. So coming back to what Bianca was talking about in terms of, like, whether there is any sort of queer storyline, like, for today's teen reader, who is your audience? We are not your demographic. Right. The teens are your demographic. They feel they feel much differently about exploring their sexuality, too. They don't label. You know, I have a friend who's a high school teacher, and it's like, nobody's labeling anything. There's not like, the stigma. It's just like, everybody's just living their life. And so you also don't need to label it at all. I think that if you look at it through the lens, as Cece was saying about possessiveness over her friend and in the coming of age that she's experiencing, she could go down those rabbit holes of those thoughts of, like, why am I feeling so possessive? Like, later in the book, I'm not saying in the opening pages, but why do I feel that possessiveness? It's because of coming of age. She's losing her concept of childhood. Right. And so when you leave behind childhood and enter into adulthood, there's this whole messy kind of emotions that come through. So I think the messiness will come the other thing is, and kind of coming back to what I was saying about it, too tidy with the bookends. I think she has to, like, lose it at the end of these five pages, right? Like, she just barreled down this cliff for her best friend. She did not want to do it. Her stupid boyfriend could have put her in the hospital. And then she just, like, stands at the cliff and goes, huh? Like, if I was her, I'd be like, she throws her bike over the cliff. She's, like, getting in his face. And maybe she takes it out on him. All the things that she means to take out on her friend. Like, this is what Cece's getting at. It's like, there's so much happening inside this character's body that you have not unleashed in a way that I think she is too tidy. And you don't have to wait to let her fling a bike over a cliff or whatever her equivalent is of that. Obviously, we don't want to litter in the oceans. Littering in the oceans is bad. But, you know, like, what is her equivalent of the throw the boyfriend over the cliff, Whatever, right?

[Bianca Murray]

Throwing boyfriends over cliffs is not littering. But bicycles is littering. We just gotta get that.

[Carly Waters]

We take out the trash. That's the setting when we're getting rid of ex boyfriends. You know, there's just. There is so much there. And I think that's what Cece and I are coming back to and trying to encourage you to, like, let her loose. Like, what would she actually do in that situation? If you weren't constrained by your idea of storytelling or your idea what a first five pages to do? Like, what would she actually do in the. That scene? If you could imagine it.

[Bianca Murray]

Okay, Casey, back to you.

[Casey]

That's actually fascinating. I did have a draft of this chapter. I've written it about 30 times, as I'm sure every author does, but I did have a version where she did lose it at Dany and stormed off and felt regret and things. And I think, as you say, maybe I. Maybe I shied away from those emotions too much. Maybe it made me feel like she wouldn't be relatable. But it sounds like I was on the right track there, and I maybe need to revisit that idea.

[Cece Lira]

Do you know something that happens often? We've spoken to enough writers that I've realized this. There's a draft where they go there. You know, they just go there, and then for whatever reason, they put that draft aside and they write something else. And I have a theory That a lot of the times it's because they go, I can't have her dialed up to a nine, you know, in the first scene, because then what do I do? How do I escalate after that? So I'm going to dial her down to a third three, and then, you know, by the end of the book, she gets to a nine, and I'm here to tell everyone, no, no, no, keep the nine. Dial her up to a 24 on the rest of the book. You know, like, just find a way it. There is no excuse for holding back, to save the juiciness for later, because there will be no later. No one's going to read it. You know, like, if you have the chops and you do, like, you have the thing that no one can fake, you know, like, please, please leverage that and, you know, worry about how you're going to dial it up later. Like, don't worry about that now.

[Bianca Murray]

Awesome. Casey, were there any questions that you wanted to ask? Any guidance you were looking for?

[Casey]

Well, in speaking of the shift, I will say, and hopefully with those editing, it will. It will be pulled forward a little bit, but maybe a page or two after the sample that I sent you ends, after Eve has sort of stormed off to the beach, she discovers a very strange body, which kind of leads into the speculative elements that. That's sort of the tonal shift where the world she knows, it starts to adjust. And it's not quite the major inciting incident. It is just sort of a tease into what's coming. So in terms of a shift, do you think that's coming too late? Do you think it's inappropriate? I would just like to hear your thoughts on it.

[Cece Lira]

Definitely not too late. I guess the thing about a shift, when it comes to starting in the right place, the thing about the shift is that it needs to change your protagonist's story forward expectations. So at the start of the first five pages, she had an idea of what the day was going to look like, or the week or the month or the year. And at the end of that scene, whether it's five pages or six or 10, she has different expectations. It's. It can't be a shift in feelings, a shift in emotions. Those are also shifts that are important. But I am referring to a shift in her expectations about what will happen next. Next can be a day, a week, a month, like I said. So it sounds like this changes her expectations. You're nodding. Awesome. So then, yes, then it counts, and then it's awesome.

[Carly Waters]

I'll just chime in and say, like, this kind of leads back to my theory about why she needs to blow up. Because there has to be a reason why the portal, you know, like, why now? Why the portal? Why now? And so I think she's going along with her life, her best friend, dah, dah, dah, dah. We're teenagers, everything's great, and then all of a sudden, her world's getting turned on its head. She takes the initiative to blow up at the boyfriend again, throw the bike over the cliff. Like that takes her down to the beach where the shift starts to happen.

[Cece Lira]

Right.

[Carly Waters]

Like, to me, that's the natural progression of thing, which is why she has to have a dramatic something, the blow up, the surprise before she goes down to the beach.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, because you want causality, right? You want that is happening at the beach because of what just happened before. Otherwise it's satellite plot points. But if this huge emotion and her losing her shirts is the thing that happens to then open up, then it naturally needs to the next thing. And we have the dominoes tipping over. So I agree with Carly there as well. Anything else for us, Casey?

[Casey]

I do have an odd question, which I learned recently that Eve, as a main character name, might be the most common name in the world. And I just wondered if that was something that you had come across or is it completely fine?

[Carly Waters]

I think it's completely fine. I mean, obviously it's one of the original female names, if you believe in Christianity. But. No, I think. I think it's fine. I don't see it too commonly. Cece, do you see it too commonly?

[Cece Lira]

It's not a problem at all. Ignore this. Put it out of your mind.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Bianca Murray]

Name your character the most appropriate thing that they should be named, and then just make sure that your other characters names are not too similar so that confusion is created. So if you have a whole bunch of names that are like Eve and Steve and. And. And that is just one, you know, that's when people get confused. But otherwise, that's your character. Name that character's name.

[Casey]

Good to know. Thank you very much.

[Bianca Murray]

Okay, well, we're now at the end of our time. Thank you so much, Casey, for being brave enough to join us on the show and for allowing these insights which will allow other writers to learn from them. Thank you again to Carly and CeCe for your incredible insights. Next week, join us for our author interview. And after that, we'll have another books with hooks. If you would like to submit to that, go to our website. The shit about writing, go to the Books With Hooks page and you can submit your work there. Bye everyone.

[E]

A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the Folsom picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at P.S. literary Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our Substack newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more. You can find it@the shitaboutwriting.substack.com that's the shit about writing.

[Bianca Murray]

And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one.

[Cece Lira]

Yes.