← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
From Audience to Impact: Crafting a Narrative That Connects
00:46:37
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
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- [00:00]
Bianca Murray
As summer winds down and we get back into back to school mode, thinking cozy interior decor is top priority. From layering fabrics and textiles to extra pillows and fresh sheets and plush bath towels, I can't stop thinking about being enveloped by my home. Whether it's by the fireplace or a piping hot bath or making sure the kids are tucked in their beds, we recently redid our bathrooms in our house. Goodbye 1990s and I love how they've come together, but one thing that always solidifies the look is the towels, soap bottles, hooks and more. Whether it's hand towels or guest bath towels, I like to make sure the textiles, textures and our handpicked items and they feel like a hotel bathroom or spa and each detail is considered Wayfair has the perfect options for us. Wayfair always delivers so quickly so you don't have to wait and second guess any decision making.
- [00:43]
Carly Waters
It's already at your door.
- [00:44]
Bianca Murray
You can make confident choices that suit your style instantly. I like luxe, detail oriented, minimal, individual and stylish pieces and Wayfair's got me covered. I think about how the pieces of my house communicate with each other while also being unique and Wayfair is the best place to shop because your house is not going to look like everybody else's. It's going to reflect you if you're thinking of a room or a space that needs a refresh for fall as we get back to routine, Wayfair's huge selection is easy to navigate with detailed filters to make sure you're getting the best selection for your taste and your budget. Wayfair makes it easy to tackle your home goals with endless inspiration for every space and budget. Get organized, refreshed and back to routine for way less Head to Wayfair right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair every style every Home.
- [01:28]
Cece Lira
Beta Reader Matchup time is happening again. It's been so gratifying over the summer to be tagged in so many posts about beta readers who've become writing besties and who are still going strong many years after they were first matched. Some even travel to meet up and do writing weekends together, which sounds incredible. I can't guarantee any of that. That's entirely up to you, but what I can guarantee is that you'll be matched with a group of people working in your gen, genre and or time zone who will critique 3,000 words of your work as you critique theirs. In return, you can sign up from now until the 31st of August with the matchup emails going out on the 1st of September. Head to my website Biancamarae.com and look for the beta reader Match up tab. Hi there and welcome to our show, the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. Hi, I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency.
- [02:41]
Bryce
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. In case you haven't noticed already because some of you do watch us on YouTube, Bianca isn't here today. Our fearless leader could not make it. We miss you already, Bianca. And just so you know, we've already had tech issues before we started recording, so maybe play a drinking game. Everyone take a sip of your coffee every time we have a tech issue. Although we'll edit it out hopefully so you won't know. But we have a very special episode today. We have the author on the show with us. Welcome Bryce. We're really excited to have you and we'd like to ask you to read your query letter.
- [03:18]
E
Sounds good, so I'll just kick it off the top. Dear Super Duper Agent, Obviously I personalize that I'm seeking representation for my debut adult fiction novel, barracuda in the booth. 69,000 words. It's an offbeat, character driven adventure for readers who love the humorous interplay between mismatched protagonists and Colleen Oakley's the Mostly True story of Tanner and Louise. The fast paced energy of El Cosmano's thinly dawn of Inn is killing it and the slow burn chemistry of Emily Henry's people. We meet on vacation when Peter chances upon Georgie Buttercup perched at the top of a three story Bodhi Tree in Chiang Mai, he thinks he's found the perfect travel companion. Even better, the fast talking 20 something with the pixie haircut distracts him from his freshly shattered heart. That fascination lasts right up until the moment Georgie drives them off the side of a mountain at night on a scooter. What Peter doesn't know is that behind Georgie's reckless confidence lies a secret. She grew up in a family of traveling circus performers, often gawked at, rarely respected. She spent years running from that past, never staying anywhere or with anyone long enough to face the shame beneath the showmanship. Peter, by contrast, is the neglected son of a diplomat mother and has always longed simply to belong somewhere to someone. Their opposing instincts collide when a ruthless monk steals a sacred Buddhist relic from a kind hearted village. Georgie knowing all too well what it means to be bullied, charges into the rainforest to steal it back. And Peter, he follows not because he's brave, but because he wishes he were. That and Georgie is literally in the driver's seat. What starts as a wild mission unravels into a gauntlet of treacherous trials involving murderous militias, mystical monks, cryptocurrency thugs, and mountains of deadly nature. But the real danger for Georgie, it's gambling with the emotional armor that's kept her safe. And for Peter, it's facing his greatest fears alongside someone who could just as easily break him as save him. As the jungle closes in and secrets surface, both must decide, is staying alive enough when you don't know how to truly live? I'm a writer based in Oakville, Ontario. My short fiction has appeared in Lichen magazine and I'm working on my second novel. Set in a cliff hugging town lost to time on Central America's Pacific coast. The characters setting in Midnight Scooter Race and Barracuda and the Buddha are inspired by my travels in Thailand. Thank you for your time and consideration. And I have that at 395 words, give or take a word.
- [05:53]
Bryce
Thank you so much. Okay, well, in case anyone's thinking Bryce looks familiar, that's because you were at the launch. Bryce came up on stage, he won our contest for the best submission package. So congratulations, Bryce. Carly, what did you think of that query letter?
- [06:10]
Carly Waters
All right, thank you, Bryce. And again, congratulations on winning. We had such a fun night. It was so great to welcome you on stage. Oh, there's the award for everybody on YouTube. There's the award right there. And welcome you on stage, shake your hand and cap off such an incredible night. So yes, we are trying to instill FOMO in all of you that weren't there because it was the best night ever. And we're so glad Bryce was a part of it. I also like to mention one of my favorite episodes is when we have the author on. So I'm really glad we can kind of dig into the meat and the heart of the story here. Okay, so let's get into it. So off the top I'll just do some nitpicky things. So you said my debut adult fiction novel. Novel and fiction are the same thing. So you only need like my debut novel or my debut fiction. You could just strike out one of those words. We don't need both. Okay, let's get into the genre here. So you say character driven adventure for readers who love the humorous interplay. Da da da da da. This is basically saying adventure romance, but you're not saying adventure romance. Like, to me, that's just avoiding naming the genre and just probably using some extra words. So I would probably just call it adventure romance with the comps. When I see adventure romance, I think a comp that most people are missing. And I always talk about this for some reason, whenever we talk about adventure romance, which is Sandra Bullock's movie the Lost City with Channing Tatum. Love that movie. For some reason. I don't know what its rating is on Rotten Tomatoes, but it is a very good adventure romance and also has a bookish theme to it. So I would probably suggest this as a cop, even though it's not exactly. Exactly Thailand. I think there's some. Some good overlap there.
- [07:40]
Bianca Murray
So I always like mentioning that one.
- [07:42]
Carly Waters
Okay, so let's get into a little bit of the heart of this, though. So there's a lot of paragraphs. You're telling us a lot of information. You're kind of giving us the meeting.
- [07:53]
E
You.
- [07:53]
Carly Waters
You have a really great line. The fascination lasts up to the moment that Georgia drives him off the side of a mountain at night on a scooter. That's a great line. But what you don't follow it with is what's happening in the novel. Then you launch into the backstory, which is like, go, go, go, go, go. Breaks, breaks, breaks, breaks, break. Like this. The query doesn't have the kind of forward momentum that I think it needs, based on the fact that you're calling this an adventure story, you're calling this a kind of an adventure romance, essentially. I also am curious. We don't have to talk about it quite yet, but I'd love it if you could speak to how much romance is actually in this story, because you make it seem like there is a romantic element. Our two main characters are male and female. Doesn't mean they can't be friends. But you do allude to with the comp, you know, slow burn chemistry of Emily Henry, that there is a romantic element there. So I. Again, we can talk about how much romance is in this. I think we need way more of the romantic element because we need to know the consequences. Like, what if one of them gets hurt? That's kind of the heart of all adventure romance is that you fall in love with somebody through this situation, this deepening chemistry from all of these dramatic events you're going through together. And then all of a sudden you're.
- [08:58]
Bianca Murray
Like, oh, crap, I actually love this person.
- [09:00]
Carly Waters
What happens if they're the one that goes over the cliff or gets taken by the Crypto baddie, you know, so if we could build in the heart of the story more into the romance. Again, if it's there, I don't want to make something that it's not. I think it will be much clear about what the stakes are, because what happens if things go wrong? Like, to me, the big question always is, why can't they just walk away? And I say this on the podcast quite a bit. Why can't they just walk away? Why can't he just go to the airport, say, I'm wrapping it up, this is too dangerous for me, get me a one way ticket out of here, and there has to be a reason, and so you're not talking about what's keeping him there, the romance, you know, falling in love with the, with the landscape and the environment. Because it seems like there might be a very good, like, nature connection in this story based on the relationship to the land and the earth. So, yeah, I'm. I just. I guess I'm not figuring out the heart of, like, why these two, why now, why this story? Because I think it's interesting, but I think you're probably burying a lot of these things and I'm not sure why. Again, it's a very long query letter, so I would just like it if we had a bit more, like, forward momentum. It was a bit more driven by the genre itself, adventure, romance. And I understood the stakes a little bit more about why all of this was happening. And I know Cece is probably going to talk to this, but your second last body paragraph or last body paragraph, you do the thing where you list all the things. Murderous militias, mystical monks, cryptocurrency, thugs, mountains of deadly nature. Right. And I know cece will get into all this because she loves a list of things that happen in a query letter. But to me, some of the interesting things here are like the cryptocurrency piece, that's super interesting to me, and I just want to know, like, how all of this connects. Does he get wrapped up in the cryptocurrency scheme? And that's something that would tie it to current, like, themes and topics. Like you, we need something to, like, root it back to reality other than like, these two off on an island doing their thing. So anyway, those are some of my random thoughts, but it all seems very interesting. I just kind of want to know the stakes and the heart of the matter about why this story, why now, why these two people, why we care? And I'll throw it to Cece.
- [11:02]
Bryce
Amazing. Thank you, Carly. I. I really enjoyed the voice in your query letter. And that's not something that we need to have in query letters at all. Like, query letters can be totally pink and just focusing on the selling points, but every once in a while, a voicey query letter will make its way through. And it's just a joy to see as. As a reader, as somebody who appreciates voice, I really liked that. Truth is, Bryce, like, if I were to get this in my inbox, I would be curious enough to go look at the pages with enthusiasm. So, yeah, it's doing the job. I still think that if you want to set yourself up for success, you could elevate it further. I'm not going to repeat everything Carly said. I fully agree with every point she made. I will say that the backstory paragraph, the one that begins with what Peter doesn't know, is that behind, like, just, you know, I said I wasn't going to repeat what Carly said, but I guess I am. That needs to go like that, that you're literally saying, okay, guys, this is really exciting. Adventure is happening. But wait, let me tell you about their lives before this. Like, it's almost like you're cutting the scene and going to, like, backstory. And, you know, agents don't want that. Agents want to know, what would the movie trailer to this look like? And there's no way a movie trailer would cut to go to the backstory. I think it's important to stick to the plot paragraphs. I understand the urge to be like, let me give you context, because the context is actually super important for their overall motivation. You know, why does Georgie go to steal the artifact back? Why does Peter, you know, try to be brave? Like, it's tied to their backstory. I get that, but we just don't need that backstory in that moment. You might want to rewrite this to have two plot paragraphs, one for Georgie, one for Peter, and then have that first setup line have a sprinkle. And I really do mean a sprinkle of backstory. That could work. Or you could just simply leave that for the pages, because that's fine, too. The other thing I wanted to say is when I see adventure stories, especially adventure stories, with, like, you know, people who just met, and there's, like, chemistry between them, there's a lot of selling points. You know, for me as an agent, I go, yes, I can see how this could be exciting for a publisher. At the same time, the idea that Carly mentioned of why can't they walk away? Is number one in our hearts. When it comes to, are readers going to believe this? Are people going to believe that you would stay in this place, that these two characters would stay in this place and go through so much danger? I don't think I would. You would have to do so much work with their character to make me believe that. And it's just really hard. So I almost wonder, like, when. When the ruthless monk steals the sacred relic, couldn't Georgie be accused of, like, having stolen it, and they have to go on the journey to get it back so Georgie doesn't get in trouble, or Peter doesn't get in trouble? Like, couldn't. Couldn't there be something like that where, like, all of a sudden they have skin in the game and they can't walk away for that reason or something else? But it's just really hard. I see this a lot in query letters where writers will come up with a story where someone has to go on an investigative journey that has dangers. But that journey, whatever mystery they're trying to solve, whether it's getting a relic back or figuring out who murdered who, that's not tied to them in any way. They're not law enforcement. They're not detectives. They're not, you know, freelance anything. They're not connected to the victim in any way. They're not connected to the relic in any way. And so that lack of connection creates a plausibility issue sometimes. And I know it can be frustrating because you're like, well, I know why they did that. They're my characters. They're doing that because they're going on this beautiful inner journey of finding bravery, finding strength. And I get that. But the plot. The plot does need something, I think, to make it extra, extra believable. I'm not saying it can't be done, because sometimes a writer will come along. Well, they'll just write a character with so much emotionality, so much interiority, that you believe that two people do put themselves in danger, especially since Peter is going along because he's into Georgie, clearly. But I am saying it makes your life much harder. So it's up to you whether you want to focus on that or not. And then to wrap it up, the satellite plot points, they do need more causality. Right. I always say this on the show. Avoid lines like, and then our heroes will go through things like. And you list three things like, I don't want satellite plot points orbiting each other. I want causality. I want to know that the murderous militia led them to the mystical monks, which led them to the cryptocurrency thugs and with specific plot. Right. Not just adding the words led to. We'll throw it back to you, Bryce. And now is your opportunity to answer our questions, ask questions of your own. You have the floor now.
- [15:44]
E
Sure. Well, thank you both, first of all. So where would I like to start? Let me, let me give you a bit more context to some of those attributes and the plot lines because I always find that, you know, query layers. How many times have I revised it? Because there's kind of like which way do you come at it, what to include, what not to include. So when it comes to Georgie and Peter, there is the kind of main thrust of the plot points and this inciting incident that kicks things off is this sacred Buddhist relic. What there is happening as well, and I don't know whether it belongs in or maybe it does, is that when Georgie and Peter first come together off the top as backpackers often do travelers, they kind of come together and they're going to go north from Chiang Mai and promptly get lost. So they end up at a night market in the middle of nowhere. And this is where they meet a third character named Gabriel. And he's this Malaysian born, New Zealand raised rock and roller. He's older than them. He's sort of there becomes their Sancho Panza kind of guide through the story. He's older, so he's more of that mentor figure. So he's literally a guy, but also a bit of a spiritual, emotional, psychological guide as well. And it's him who takes them to this midnight scooter race through the rainforest. And it's there that they meet this young monk named Kulap. And Kulap plays an important role in the kind of inciting incident in the sense that he has this past with the main protagonist who's called Prasit, who's the one who kind of takes the sacred relic. And they have their own kind of backstory, some of which you know and others it's just, it's just behind the scenes in my head. But Prasit being a fallen monk, he blames Kulap for this. They're going to do this race. Kulap's supposed to be racing but says I can't now that I know Prasit's going to race because as a Buddhist you don't want the confrontation. So that's where Georgie comes in and says she doesn't like it when people get pushed around. Based on her own backstory, which we don't know yet at this point she says, I'm going to do it. Hell yeah. I'm going to race in this thing. And it's a two person on a scooter race. So of course Peter's getting on the back even though he doesn't really want to. So that kind of kicks things off. So the driver for this is obviously do they win the race? It wouldn't be much of a story if it resolves at that point. And prasit takes off with the, with the relic. And it's that kind of emotional driver of Georgie to say for kulap, this you know, kind hearted monk in his village, I'm gonna go into the forest and steal this thing back. Peter gets swept along with her and Gabriel as well goes with her as sort of that guide. Cause in the process Kulap goes missing as well. So we have this kind of dual gotta find, proceed, get this thing back. Also think that he's done something with Kulap because he's gone missing. So they go on. This adventure involves having to go up and find this hidden monastery that kulap belongs to. This is where they get taken. They find the monks have all been held captive by this cryptocurrency militia kind of group. And Georgie, Peter and Gabriel also get captured into this. So prasit arrives into the scene as the fallen monk. He's shown this militia how to get into the monastery where they've set up their operations. So that's our second like continuing to increase the difficulty of the trials. A little bit of a dissim kind of thing happening. So then they have their new challenge. They found Kulap but now everybody's captured. There's villagers that are being forced labor. Recit still has a sacred relic. So there's a challenge there which does not resolve the story either in terms of them getting the relic back. And it kind of goes from there. So in and amongst these kind of action adventure kind of plot points, the question about the romance is if it's not central in the sense of we set these two up at the star historians like well we know by the end of it they're gonna end up together. They're almost like a helix in a sense of their. Their character development. Because Georgie on the one side doesn't trust anybody. She's always the lone wolf. Peter is more like the pilot fish who doesn't trust himself. So they have these moments, almost like a. Like a waveform where they kind of get close together and then they recoil. So there is that moment climbing the mountain where Georgi is outed by somebody they meet as being a circus Reisinger, like a circus traveler from Europe. And that kind of point of reflex of going back into her lone wolf Persona, which wishes Peter way, and he is very much, I'm out of here, right? Screw this. I'm climbing back down the mountain on my own. She can take care of herself, but it's Gabriel that kind of continues to be that. A little bit of that kind of keeping them together and keeps Peter there. And so there is that kind of push and pull of their relationship. But I guess where I was challenged with for the query letter is it's not as simple of, you know, like, each other, hate each other. It's more of their own personal limitations or how their. Their own armor, in a sense, their own shortcomings is what keeps them from kind of coming together. Peter's not trusting what's. What's happening here at the end of it, Georgie doesn't want to give up this lone wolf Persona. Can they kind of reconcile those things? It gets pretty fractured towards the end of the novel and to the point where when I was writing, I'm like, I don't know if they're gonna make it. I really don't know if they're gonna make it. They probably should make it because that's how books work. But I was really uncertain by the time I was getting towards the end of the book.
- [21:22]
Carly Waters
Can I cut in and ask a question, Bryce? So based on everything that you said, who do you think that the target audience is for the book? Because if you're setting something up as a potential romance, again, there's romance fans. Or if it was something that's more literary novel, you know, for literary readers, you obviously have an adventure story which suggests a bit more commercial. Have you thought about, like, usually based on comps I get from the author? Oh, this author thinks that this book is for fans of, you know, you have the mostly true story of Tanner and Louise, the Finley Donovan's Killing it, people you meet on vacation, which are slightly different in terms of genre and tone. And so I guess maybe to help direct you through this query letter question, I think I just need to know a little bit more about, like, who do you actually think the audience is for the book? Could you describe them or do you have other comps, that type of thing?
- [22:12]
E
I would say with this book, it is a little bit more upmarket leaning adventure, though it's hard to find comps that sit in that space because it's not action adventure, which is really whiz Bang, you know, and oh, romance. They get together at the end. It ultimately is a journey of self realization, a bit of coming of any age. And that is also even with Gabriel's character arc and Prasit the antagonist, he has his own kind of coming of self reckoning. So upmarket leaning adventure. The reason why I thought Tanner and Louise was a good match is because it is also a road trip and you know, they each are coming of any age where louise being an 80 something octogenarian with this kind of questionable past, you know, she has her own self reckoning even though she's at an older age. And then we have a 20 something with Tanner. So it has, I guess that coming of age 20 something in terms of a reader. 20 something, 30 something. Does it pin it down? Not necessarily. I think it is for a reader that wants to have a bit of escapism. We're in Thailand after all, wants to have some fun, wants to feel a bit of a joy and fun in what they're reading, but still enjoys having some character depth. Something more than just, oh, we've been here before, we're in the Lost City movie with Sandra Bullock. And they're gonna have these kind of like, hate you, love you and they're gonna end up together at the end of it.
- [23:35]
Carly Waters
So I would say I think your comps need to be more travel oriented then. Because I think the whole 20s, 30s, you know, we're talking about billions of people on the planet, right? We need to be like, who is this for? And so I definitely think you need to hone in either on the road trip comps or the travel comps or because I you any mention of romance right now, people are just gonna like lock into that because romance is such a popular and hot category. And especially with the Emily Henry comp. And I know again, vacation, there's travel there. So it's not like you can't do it. I just, I just, I want you to be a little bit more clear and focused about who this is for because right now you're giving the vibes which is like, this is for everyone. And you know, obviously book can't be for everybody. So I think that will also help you focus a little bit more. And you know, and I think the cryptocurrency, as I said, that really stuck out to me as something that's interesting. And I don't know if like, you know, for example, one of our protagonists is mixed up with a crypto thing. And that's a very, you know, 20s, 30, something kind of conversation as well. So if you want to keep it young, I'm using air quotes for everybody that's not on YouTube. You know, dial that in again. Dial in the youth element, dial in the travel element. And if it's backpacker lifestyle, like, I would really just start to, like, if you're taking your lens, like, focusing on those key elements that keep it really unique. Because I think travel adventure is just not standing out for you either, because you're like, I think it's a lot of things. So what is it? Young people travel, you know, Focus, focus, focus, focus. Bryce, do you have any more questions about the query letter that we can answer for you?
- [25:10]
E
I guess the one main question is when we have. When we have, for lack of better words, we do have an adventure story, and there are kind of a increasing kind of set of trials that the characters are going through. Are they important in a particular context of the query layer? Especially if it's not going to get spelled out obviously in the first five pages either, or even the first 50 pages in that sense. So without it, does it even make sense for an agent to understand where things are going or, you know, to the point of not wanting to have a list of. And here's the thing, five things they run into later in the story.
- [25:49]
Bryce
I think the trials need causality, or else it feels like the story wasn't set up in a way that honors the web effect. Remember, we see hundreds of queries where I get things listed right, like, these are the trials, and then we get three or four things. And sometimes these things sound really interesting, but I don't understand how they relate to one another. That is all the time we have for the query letter, though. So now we're going to take a quick break to support our sponsors. Okay, we are back because Bianca isn't here. We are, of course, running over time. And so Bryce will ask you to summarize your opening pages, please. What happens on those opening pages?
- [26:31]
E
We have a prelude to the first chapter in which we are given a lens, a glimpse.
- [26:37]
Bianca Murray
Did you know that your calendar age.
- [26:39]
Carly Waters
Doesn'T always match how old your body truly is? I recently took the true age test.
- [26:43]
Bianca Murray
From True Diagnostic to discover my body biological age.
- [26:46]
Carly Waters
And I know it's going to completely change the way I think about my health.
- [26:49]
Bianca Murray
You guys know I take my health very seriously, from training for triathlons to wanting to live a long time to.
- [26:54]
Carly Waters
Raise my boys and watch them grow.
- [26:55]
Bianca Murray
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- [27:04]
Carly Waters
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- [27:05]
Bianca Murray
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- [28:09]
Carly Waters
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- [28:12]
Bianca Murray
That's truediagnostic.comand use T Snotya at checkout to get 20 off your future self will thank you this spring watching everything outside bloom. I'm also watching my kids blossom in their French immersion program at school. It's amazing but also a big motivator for me, especially because we're headed to France next month. I want to be able to join in more, you know, if you want to connect more with your kids language.
- [28:39]
Carly Waters
Journey or maybe prep for your own.
- [28:41]
Bianca Murray
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- [29:57]
E
Today to Georgia Buttercup, one of the main characters. But chapter one begins with Peter. He's arrived in Chiang Mai. He's running out of money. He's recently come out of a heartbreak. Girlfriend left him in the islands of Thailand, but he's ended up in Chiang Mai. He's floating. He's a reluctant traveler. He's not even sure what he's supposed to be doing. And he ends up being taken to a place called the Rasta Cafe, where he's trying to figure out how he's going to get lunch, essentially. And then he hears a noise from the top of this Bodhi tree that's growing in the patio of the cafe. And he has heard about the fact that the Buddha can be reincarnated as a small child, a dog, a bird, from a couple of Dutch travelers at his guest house. And he thinks, I'm going to be the one to actually see this thing. The Dutch travelers are going to be crazy about this. And so he starts to climb the tree and that is where the chapter ends.
- [30:54]
Bryce
Amazing. Thank you so much, Bryce. Carly, what did you think of those opening pages?
- [31:00]
Carly Waters
All right, so you have kind of a subtitle here, Barracuda and the Buddha. And then you have Colon, the Unlikely story of Peter and Georgie in Thailand. That sounds like a memoir. I think that has to go. So I would just cut that. So, I mean, overall, I guess I'll start global. I'll go micro, and then I'll go global again. So global. The voice is great. Like, it is a very, very voicey, you know, sample. I mean, for the prelude, you call it, like some sort of prelude was kind of quirky. You go into Georgie's POV in a very interesting, like, you know, if she was this sort of person, she'd do this.
- [31:33]
Bianca Murray
If she was this sort of person, she'd do this.
- [31:34]
Carly Waters
And our substack supporters who pay for our critiques, you guys will be able to check these out because really, really great opener here and just kind of a really quirky take on a prologue that works because you're obviously trying to introduce us to both characters before we kind of move into the sequence of why they actually need be interacting with each other. So I thought that was really strong. I did have a question with the opening line. So Georgie is presumably in her twenties. You don't really say whether this is present day or not, but basically Georgie would be a Gen Z or she'd be a young Gen Z. Right? She wouldn't be Alpha. My kids are alpha. But. So, I don't know, I just felt like, would these be the type of things that a young Gen Z would do? Like, for example, like, you. You have Georgie Buttercup nearly had that damn yellow turd bird twice. I honestly didn't really feel like that damn yellow turd bird made a whole lot of sense. I mean, I don't know, I just had to be like, is she actually talking about a bird? Do we have to name that? It's yellow birds poop. So obviously it's a turd bird. All birds are birds because everybody poops. So I don't know. I was kind of like, is that, like, how she would think? Is that what, like, a young Gen Z would actually do?
- [32:44]
E
I don't know.
- [32:45]
Carly Waters
I was. And so you didn't really have me with that first line. I was kind of like, why do I have to read the this first? Why do I have to read Daniela Turnbird three times to figure out, is this actually a bird? And then you got me once. You were like, if Georgie had been this type of person, she'd do this. Or her first thought was this and her second thought, like, I liked all that. You had me for all of that. So when I start a book, I'm kind of. I'm kind of like, I want to be sold on this. But also when I'm turning on my lens for teaching or reading, you know, potential submissions, I have to think, you know, am I going to request more? Am I going to love this? Am I not? Why not? I also only have so many hours in a day to read read submissions. Am I moving on to the next one? So right away I was kind of like, I don't love this first line. But then again, you got me. So I was totally on board then we start getting into our Peter protagonist. And this is when I started thinking, why is he making the choices that he's making? I love the voice. I like the writing. But now I have to think about I'm actually going to like these characters enough to spend 10 hours of my life reading this or, you know, two years of my life working on a project, you know, with these. With these characters. And I did not believe that a man in his 20s, again, he's another Gen Z, presumably he's in his 20s, that he would get on a tuk tuk with a stranger that he didn't know to go to a third location. Like, a woman would never do this. And also your target audience, Bryce, is going to be women. It just is based on the number of women that read and the subject matter of your book, your target audience.
- [34:10]
Bianca Murray
Is women, whether you like it or not.
- [34:13]
Carly Waters
So the reality is a woman reading this. I think it's bizarre that a human would get on a tuk tuk with a stranger to a location that they don't know. But again, I'm willing to suspend disbelief. We're reading a novel. I'm liking the writing. We're on the journey. You know, that's. That's where my head is going with all of this. And there's some really great lines. You know, we do talk a little bit about, you know, his growing up, and you say, you know, something happened to him. And he says, I had a profound respect for gravity and a healthy distrust of heights ever since. Like, you're finding these really elegant ways of writing these things. So overall, I really want to suspend a certain amount of disbelief. I guess what I'm trying to help you guard against is things like coincidence really thinking about are these the choices that this character would actually make and thereby this being a fictional character a human would actually make. Not only would this character make this, like, can we imagine that a human in this situation would actually, you know, make these decisions? So, you know, I also, because this is a teaching platform, I also want to kind of go through for our readers, really what happens when a reader does or doesn't believe the story or what's happening in the story and the consequences of a breakdown in belief. So obviously there's some straightforward ones, which is we get pulled out of the story. You know, if we're not kind of in this moment believing. If I have to read this three times to be like, do I believe.
- [35:31]
Bianca Murray
That they're doing this?
- [35:32]
Carly Waters
Do I believe that somebody's doing this? It pulls us out of the story. And there's the inability to connect. Right. Because we want to think, oh, I, I authentically believe that these people are doing that. And if I have to kind of reread it, I'm like, oh, that maybe that doesn't feel like that's exactly what's happening. And next is in, especially in a travel environment, there's a certain escapism that's required of a book like this. Like if I'm going to pick up a book about, you know, a foreign location or a road trip, I have to imagine I'm being transported somewhere and I have to kind of again believe everything that's happening. And then kind of what happens in my agent brain is things like, I'm starting to focus on things that stand out. Instead of being like, oh, I am going to continue to jump all in into the story. I start to think what is matching with these inconsistencies? And I start to focus on the inconsistencies more than I'm focusing on being in the story. And we obviously want to, we want to be in your hands. We want to trust that the author is going to take us on this journey and we don't want to put it down, we want to keep going. So those are some of the things, you know, that go through my head when I'm thinking about that. So we want like the logic to make sense of the characters. We want them to have no coincidences ideally. And so an example of a coincidence in my mind is the fact that the Tuk Tuk drops him off at the location that she just happens to be at. And again, I would like it better if he actually made the choice to get on the Tuk Tuk or he made the choice to get taken to that location because it seems so passive that he ends up at that location. And then she just happens to be. That's very woo woo to me. I would like it if he says yes, I would like to go to that location because then he's making an active choice. Get in her orbit. Right now it's very much like I'm just a man out on a journey. I don't know, let's see what happens. And again, your female readers are going to be like, I think I need a little bit more of like, these are the reasons that all these things happen and obviously the realistic consequences. Right. Do we believe that this Tuk Tuk is actually going to take him to.
- [37:24]
Bianca Murray
The place where he's going to meet.
- [37:25]
Carly Waters
His future partner or, or that sort of thing? So Anyway, those are some things that go through my head. Those are some things that go through readers heads. And now I'll turn it over to Cece.
- [37:34]
Bryce
Thank you, Carly. Yeah, that's really interesting about his motivation. See, I'll echo the fact that the voice here is amazing. I love the quirkiness. I love the tone. I love the humor. It really is so hard to pin down. Like, if someone were like, okay, well, Cece, you're saying this is voicey and the tone is great and it's quirky. Can you point to where that is? And I'm like, well, I'd have to point to everything. It's so organically woven into your writing. It's truly. Is something that you should be very, very proud of. It's. It's really awesome. I'm reminded of the interview I did with Bianca where she had this great analogy when I asked her about writing, you know, different genres and the tone you have to nail for each genre. And she talked about how tone is like dress goat, you know, like, you need to know what to. What to wear to what occasion, and you know, what to wear for this occasion, because it's really. It's working really, really well. I. I think that how passive Peter is is bothering me a lot. But it's not just because I want him to be active. It's also because I worry he's coming across as unintelligent. So he's walking, right? And then this driver says, hey, do you want me to take you someplace? And he's thinking to himself, well, I need food. First of all, I'd like a little bit more information on, is this new to him? Is he someone who's used to having to find cheap food, or is it not new? Because I read the whole thing, I know it's not new. So you could really leverage curiosity in being, like, weaving in a messy emotion where he was thinking about how humiliating or embarrassing it is to have to worry about finding cheap meal, you know, that he didn't think he'd be in this place in his life, and we'd be like, oh, wait, so what happened in his life? And when we got the. When we get the line about the ex girlfriend, we'll put two and two together. So. So I think that's an opportunity for a curiosity seed. But anyway, when the driver offers to take him to places, his mind is like, yes, I'll go to a cooking class because I'll get a free meal first. I mean, the cooking class is paid, so I don't know how much sense that makes. But more importantly, then the driver decides to offer two more things. And the Rasta cafe is the one where he lands in. But like, if he's mindful with money, why, like, why is he going to this cafe? You know, like, why, like, is this cafe known for having cheap, cheap food? Is his cafe known for big portions where he could like save for dinner? Like, I just wanted, I wanted it to make sense. It felt plot convenient. It felt like. And then he has to go there so he can meet Georgie. You can remove his interiority about the cooking class and all that. If that's not intentional. I mean, I suppose it is because it's there, but if you're going to keep it, then it needs to, you need to see it through. I need to know that his thought process behind the cooking class being a good idea, but then actually ending up in the cafe, like, where's the connection there? I need his interiority to reflect and to process that information in a way that makes sense to me. Once he arrives at the cafe, you have a line that reads that he fumbled in his pocket for what he hoped would be enough to pay the driver. And the driver takes the money and goes. And then there's no reaction to that. You know, it's really important to have emotional reaction to things. And so maybe he would think, oh gosh, I just got plate, I gave him too much money. Or maybe he would think, thank God that was enough. Whatever he would think is going to develop his character and potentially propel the story forward. Because if he ended up giving more money than he had to, how much money does he still have? I just wanted those. I wanted the thoughts that are quirky and fun to also develop his character and also propel the story forward it especially because on page I think it's four, we get a line that reads, prepaying for a two week stay in a luxury beach hut which his forever girlfriend was now enjoying with her new quote friend, hadn't helped his financial situation either. So again, like that is a very juicy, very interesting event. But if that happened in the backstory, his messy emotions would be reflecting that throughout. You know, it's fine for him to wait until now to think it till page four to think it, but the messy emotions would be there before. And you can frame those messy emotions in a way that really, really triggers the reader's curiosity. You do something really well, which is hard. It's an interiority technique. It's when you zoom out to offer socio emotional context. For example, Peter is looking at this huge tree, right? And he's hearing a noise, a voice coming from that tree. You have a line that reads, last time he'd negotiated a tree this size, he'd been 11 and living in Tanzania. So you zoom out. You know there's a tree in front of the protagonist, and you zoom out to when was the last time he saw a tree that big? And it's. You only took a few words. You developed his character. You made me feel like he's a believable person. This sort of thing to do is really hard because some people can do it, but they also. They'll spend, like, three paragraphs on it. And it's like, no, you're dragging the pace. So to do it in a way that doesn't drag the pace is really impressive. And it obviously gave us that great line about the healthy distrust of gravity, which I thought was adorable and I really liked too. Yeah, I think. Really? I'll throw it back to you so you can answer our questions. I hope you've been keeping notes and let us know if you have questions of your own.
- [42:53]
E
All right, well, thank you both so much. It's always so interesting to see through other people's eyes as well, especially, like, two people such as yourself. But even with, like, Beta readers I've had and writing instructor and editor and things like that, people get familiar with it once they've read it once. So it's hard to kind of. To continue to get that sort of really good, valuable feedback. A few different things with Peter. So to answer some questions about him, I think they're bang on about a bit of that emotional side of what he's thinking about these things. He is very much that character that's not sure where he is, what he's doing. A little bit lost, gets pulled along by people. And at one point of storyline, the tuk Tuk driver doesn't actually take money from him. So it might have. Might have been a little bit unclear there. He goes to get the money, but the tuk tuk driver just says. Because in Thailand. There's a lot of people in Thailand that are just sort of. They're just very happy and generous and whatnot. So the tuk tuk driver takes off. So he never ends up having to pay pay. So he is standing on that street just completely disoriented because he doesn't know what just happened.
- [43:59]
Bryce
I'm gonna interrupt you for one second, so sorry. That's actually quite clear. I just thought that I had misunderstood it because there's no relief. Because you do say he waved him off. But I was like, well, if that were the case, because he was so worried about money, he'd be flooded with relief and thinking about how much money he saved. And because that's not there, I thought I had. So. So just add relief. It's an easy fix.
- [44:21]
E
Yeah. Okay, so I think that was kind of the main questions, right?
- [44:27]
Carly Waters
No, I think it's more just like, you know, when you do your edit, thinking about the coincidences. Why are these dominoes kind of tipping into each other? I think it is a bit interesting that you think that Peter, not that you think you wrote him. So I shouldn't say that that's a version of Peter that exists on this page. Age.
- [44:46]
E
Yeah.
- [44:46]
Carly Waters
That he is kind of stumbling into these things because you have to guard against the chance that he might come off as unlikable or, like cece said, a little unintelligent. Which, again, yeah, there's all stripes of people in the world, and that's okay. But, like, you know, in terms of us wanting to spend time with them, what is going to be those interesting things about him that we're going to cling to? So just, again, thinking about that, thinking about the coincidences, and just making sure it all kind of makes sense, you know. Again, these are notes on final pages. So obviously Cece and I haven't read the whole thing, and you know your manuscript much more intimately than we do. But our goal when we do these kind of critiques is obviously just to enlighten you about how agents think about the five pages and how that informs our interpretation of the pages to come.
- [45:30]
Bryce
What's his age? Because Carly's assuming 20s. I assumed 20s, too. So could you give us background there? Because the way Gen Z processes information is particular to their generation. That's true of all generations. So what's the story there?
- [45:45]
E
Peter is 26. Georgie, who will meet right in the next chapter, is 24. It is set in current day. There's this one little point where they're talking. They're. They're in a market and whatnot. And Georgie makes comment about just use your phone or whatever, and he's like, don't have one. Fell into the water market. And she says, why didn't you just get another? And. And he says, what was my third one already? And so she's like, probably. Probably for the best then. So there are these kind of touch points that center us in time, not necessarily in the first five pages, but their age is very much that mid-20s kind of timeline.
- [46:21]
Carly Waters
Yeah. These, like, that age group is also known for being very risk adverse. So I also think it's very interesting that they are that age. And this is a generation who, like, you know, these guys would have been 2019 in Covid. Again, you don't have to mention co. You know, I'm trying to say in terms of, like, how. How these characters as humans would have come into the world. I think about that a lot. Like, they're risk adverse. A lot of them don't drive. A lot of them abstain from alcohol. Like, it is a very interesting generation, especially these guys who would have been, you know, 1920 when Covid was happening. And so it's going to be interesting to read them. I'm curious about how you, you know, create them on the page because it is a very interesting micro generation of people. So it's actually very bold. I think there's probably less backpacking than ever from that generation as opposed to, you know, when we were youths.
- [47:08]
E
Yeah. It is certainly much more of an Instagram generation, I would say, where you go for your photo. And I think the comments about Peter, whether or not he's likable, you know, intelligent, those sort of things. It's interesting because I see Peter in the lens of, or the contrast of Georgia Buttercup, who we've not met and won't meet until Page Six, essentially. And so Peter makes sense in the context of Georgie. And Georgie makes sense from the standpoint that she's just this kind of wild child daredevil, and she is the free spirit, which. Which very much I feel that the Gen Cs are as well, like they are very much, let's go. Let's go to this strange place. I've seen it on Instagram. But she's not of that world in a sense as well, because she grew up in this traveling circus a little bit more. More of the roaming person. She's been on the outside fringe of society. So he's not your typical Gen Z. Peter is much more so, but not to your point. He is risk adverse. Right. And that's a little bit that contrast with Georgie. She's ready to drive off the side of the mountain. He very much doesn't want to, but doesn't want to be seen as somebody who can't. Right. So there's that duality there. So it is. It's tough to. It's a different lens than now that you're seeing just the five pages of how Peter shows up. Because in my mind, it's like, well, it makes sense when you are.
- [48:27]
Carly Waters
Yeah, but it's very interesting to me that you keep focusing on how they have formed in your mind in relation to each other, because I think that the triangle piece that you're missing is the reader. Like, you keep talking about how they're informed by each other, but then you have to think about, like, how is the reader going to interpret this. This. This triangulation of their, you know, relationship and who they are? And I just want to remind you, I guess, just to think about the reader's interpretation of this as that triangle. Not just how they're in relation to each other, but. But the reader as the third point in that triangle. Cece, do you have any last thoughts.
- [48:58]
Bianca Murray
Before we wrap up?
- [48:59]
Bryce
I'm. I'm not convinced that. I'm not convinced by your answers. Bryce. I'll be super honest with you.
- [49:05]
Carly Waters
You're.
- [49:06]
Bryce
You're telling me that every single time we asked you a question about Peter, the answer is always because of Georgie. And even when we didn't ask you a question, like your query letter, he does this because of Georgie. He does that because of Georgie. Gonna be super honest here. No, no, no, no. I don't believe you. I don't think that's true. I think that Georgie is the excuse. Georgie's like, layer one in his mind. But I will bet you anything that if you dig deep, it's actually because his girlfriend left him and because he was an adventurous. I'm just speculating here. I'm not going to get it right. And then when he meets Georgie and she's finally adventurous, he's like, gosh, I'm going to do it this time. You know, I'm going to show whatever his ex girlfriend is that I am too adventurous and that I can be spontaneous. And that is why he gets on the back of the tuk tuk. That is why he, you know, follows Georgie. It's. And maybe you're thinking, well, isn't that the same thing? Because I'm saying it's because Georgie's there to inspire him. And I'm saying, no, it's not the same thing. Because at the end of the day, he needs to feel like a real person, not in contrast with her, in order for a dual POV story to work. If I were to remove one of the POVs, the plot could fall through, but not the character. And in this case, the character is falling through. And I just don't believe you. You know, I think that. I think you're trying to keep Peter safe because you're protecting him. I think you admire Georgi way more and you're giving her the stage, which I love. Please give her all the stages. But. But Peter gets a stage of his own too.
- [50:45]
Carly Waters
All right, well on that dramatic note, we have to wrap up. We are at our allotted time, so everybody who is a Substack subscriber, come check out the pages. They obviously, as we have alluded to, are very dramatic and well written. So thank you so much Bryce for coming on the show, for letting us pick your brain, pick you apart. It's obviously so appreciated by the listeners of the show because they get to learn from you. So thank you Bryce and thank you.
- [51:07]
Bianca Murray
To my co host cece.
- [51:09]
E
As always, thank you so much.
- [51:11]
Bianca Murray
A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the fulsome picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at PS Literate Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcast. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our Substack newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more. You can find it@theshitaboutwriting substack.com that that's the shitaboutwriting.substack.com and that's it for today's episode.
- [52:06]
Cece Lira
I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one.
- [52:12]
Bryce
Yes.
- [52:18]
Cece Lira
Beta reader matchup time is happening again. It's been so gratifying over the summer to be tagged in so many posts about beta readers who who've become writing besties and who are still going strong many years after they were first matched. Some even travel to meet up and do writing weekends together. Which sounds incredible. I can't guarantee any of that. That's entirely up to you. But what I can guarantee is that you'll be matched with a group of people working in your genre and or time zone who will critique 3,000 words of your work work as you critique theirs. In return, you can sign up from now until the 31st of August. With the matchup emails going out on the 1st of September, head to my website Biancamarae.com and look for the Beta Reader Matchup tab.