How to Build a Protagonist Who Actually Makes Sense

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: How to Build a Protagonist Who Actually Makes Sense

Date: April 16, 2026
Host: Cece Lyra (with recurring comments by Bianca Marais)
Guest: Miranda Schulman (debut author of Harmless)

---

Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the craft of building believable, dynamic protagonists—characters who “actually make sense”—through the lens of Miranda Schulman’s debut novel, Harmless. The conversation dives deep into Miranda’s writing journey, characterization strategies, literary influences, and her experience breaking into publishing. Aspiring authors will find actionable advice, encouragement, and honest reflections on the triumphs and anxieties of bringing a novel to publication.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Miranda’s Path to Becoming a Novelist

Timestamps: 05:51–07:36

• Miranda began writing her first “novel” while working at Planned Parenthood, only to realize it was an inadvertent memoir at age 22.
• Transitioned to writing Harmless, which shifted genres from romantic comedy to what she now describes as "literary suspense".
• The initial inspiration arose from childhood dreams and considering how fragments of them persist or fade in adulthood.

2. Genre Discovery and Literary Identity

Timestamps: 07:44–11:00

• Genre confusion is common, even for established writers.
• Harmless is best described as “literary suspense” or “literary angsty suspense,” with elements appealing to book clubs and readers interested in existential themes.
• Cece points out the novel sparks the “conversation of the self”—lost dreams, adult malaise, and navigating a changed definition of adulthood.

“This book is about friendship, about three friends, Bea, Tatum and Leila, who decide, because Bea has this idea, to open up a kennel... So much of this book is, when we were kids, we all had dreams… And these young adults, they decide to do the thing.” — Cece Lyra (09:17)

3. Character Construction: Building Bea and Her Friends

Timestamps: 13:10–22:48

• The kernel for Harmless was Miranda’s childhood dream of opening a kennel—a plan revisited in fiction to explore nostalgia and lost direction in one’s late 20s.
• Bea, the central protagonist, required careful calibration; she’s deeply lonely, driven by a need to be needed, and prone to obsessive tendencies.
• Tatum was the easiest character for Miranda to write, feeling “like I was sort of, like, in it with her” (19:17), serving as the story’s grounding force.
• The group’s dog kennel dream is intentionally illogical—mirroring how adult malaise and residual childhood hope can drive questionable (but narratively compelling) choices.

“She [Bea] wanted to feel needed. That’s the way that she connects with people. And I think that’s something that a lot of us can relate to…” — Miranda Schulman (19:25)

Notable Quote

“We want interesting, fascinating protagonists. We don’t want boring protagonists in our lives. Like, down with boring protagonists. And B is not boring.” — Cece Lyra (22:40)

4. Process, Revision & Discovery

Timestamps: 23:09–25:24

• Miranda drafted the first version of Harmless quickly using Jamie Attenberg’s “1000 Words of Summer” challenge.
• She writes exploratory, often discarding entire drafts before settling on one to revise—three completely distinct drafts preceded the final version.
• The process underscored the importance of discovering character and world gradually rather than aiming for perfection up front.

5. Breaking In: Fellowships, Agents & Community

Timestamps: 25:43–36:44

• Miranda found her agent and publishing deal through the Bookends Fellowship at Stony Brook University, which pairs writers with mentors (in her case, Karen Bender) and hosts agent meetings after a full draft is completed.
• She connected with her agent, Sabrina Tights at WME, through this program after the agent read her completed manuscript, leading to a supportive, patient representation experience.

Notable Quote

“I knew she was my person because… she was so enthusiastic, so supportive, and so patient. Like, I could not have asked for… a more ethical agent.” — Miranda Schulman (33:33)

• The submission process to editors was brief and successful, landing with Pilar Garcia-Brown at Dutton after just over two weeks.
• Major recognition of the value of community and luck—Miranda’s support system includes the novelist Meg Wolitzer (her partner’s mother), who pointed her toward Bookends and has been a consistent mentor.

6. Editorial Work and Making the Protagonist "Make Sense"

Timestamps: 36:55–44:18

• Extensive revisions with editor Pilar Garcia-Brown focused on maintaining consistent motivation and believability for Bea, especially calibrating the ending so Bea’s actions were tracked effectively.
• Balancing the story’s multiple points of view and introspection with plot was an editorial challenge.

Notable Quote

“Making sure that what Bea’s motivations are really track. Making sure that sort of when she… flies off the handle, it fits with the rest of who she is… that was the thing for me that was the hardest to get right.” — Miranda Schulman (38:44)

---

Memorable Moments & Advice

On Writing What Obsess You

Timestamps: 43:23–44:18

"Write what obsesses you." — Meg Wolitzer, quoted by Miranda Schulman (43:23)
Miranda applied this literally and metaphorically, with Harmless focusing on themes of obsession, nostalgia, and growing up.

On Fear and Vulnerability

Timestamps: 47:05–49:16

• Miranda’s biggest fear as a debut: “everyone in my life reading this book and thinking about all of the people having an opinion about it… it’s incredibly, incredibly vulnerable to put a book out into the world.” (47:44)
• She’s proud to write something “not everyone is going to love,” embracing the divisiveness of interesting fiction.

On Literary Influences & Recommendations

Timestamps: 44:26–51:22

• The Yellow Wallpaper (Charlotte Perkins Gilman), Rebecca (Daphne du Maurier), and Highsmith’s novels are cited as formative influences: “Books that are about women doing bad, like, just having weird impulses and making bad decisions—those are my favorite kinds of books.” (45:23)
• Current recommendations: A Good Person by Kristin King (“weird, creepy vibes. Women doing bad things.” 50:07), and In the Cut by Susanna Moore.

---

Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------|:----------:| | Miranda’s background and writing journey | 05:51–07:36| | Genre discovery and book summary | 07:44–11:00| | Childhood dreams & existentialism | 12:24–17:35| | Character construction: Bea & Tatum | 18:11–22:48| | Writing process & revision strategies | 23:09–25:24| | The Bookends Fellowship, agent & editor journey | 25:43–36:44| | Editorial process & protagonist motivation | 36:55–44:18| | Literary influences/advice/recommendations | 44:26–51:22| | On fear, vulnerability and embracing responses | 47:05–49:16|

---

Tone and Takeaways

• The conversation is candid, warm, and reflective, striking a balance between dissecting craft and sharing industry realities.
• Miranda and Cece both encourage writers to write towards their obsessions, accept the messiness of early drafts, and recognize the role of community, opportunity, and hard work.
• The importance of protagonists with agency, complexity, and sometimes “bad” behavior is a throughline for character creation.

---

Final Quotes

“Down with boring protagonists... Bea is not boring.”
— Cece Lyra (22:40)

“I feel proud of writing something that not everyone is going to love. That actually, I love.”
— Miranda Schulman (49:16)

---

For writers: Bring your obsessions and your most complicated characters to the page; writing that resonates is rarely universally liked, but it must feel urgent and true to you.

For readers: Harmless is a debut that channels the strange energy of adulthood’s lost scripts and longing, featuring complex women, existential tension, and conversation-sparking themes. If those are your obsessions, you’ll want to read.

---

Transcript

[Bianca]

Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one for the summer, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 1st of June, with the matchup emails going out on the 2nd of June. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page.

[Cece Lera]

What's up everyone? This is cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled. And I wasn't surprised at all because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So, personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with hooks and of course, in my submissions inbox. But at the same time I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean, it's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible, to make agents crave it, to make agents want to read more. That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course. Starting it how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure that your story's beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the Best one, the best place to start and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things. When it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way. How to balance exposition and mystery. How to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory. And what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline. Most of all, I'm going to show you how to make readers want to turn to chapter two. Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepared to take lots of notes. We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques.

Plus a super fun surprise that I

can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.

[Bianca]

Hi there and welcome to our show, the Shit no one Tells you About Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca and I'm joined by Cece Lera of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary.

[Cece Lera]

All right, everyone. We have a very special episode of the Shit no one tells you About Writing. I am here with the debut author, Miranda Schulman. She wrote a wonderful novel called Harmless. I'm holding it up. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see me holding it up. I have an arc, guys. It's not a finished copy yet because as I interview the lovely Miranda, her book has not come out yet. So we're going to talk about all the things that go into making a book, a real thing out in the world. Once upon a time, Miranda was exactly where you were. Listening to the Shit no one Tells you About writing. Drafting away, dreaming of this day. And now pretty soon on April. Wait, is it April 14th? Do I have that right?

[Miranda Schulman]

It's April 14th.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah. And now on April 14th, she will be a published author. It's so exciting. So I will read her official bio, which is like super short and sweet.

[Miranda Schulman]

So.

[Cece Lera]

Miranda Schulman attended Bard College where she majored in human rights before pursuing a career in publishing. She worked at Planned Parenthood. She grew up in Brooklyn, New York and still lives there. Harmless is her first novel. Welcome, Miranda.

[Miranda Schulman]

Thank you so much for having me. I love this podcast so much. So this is like such an honor. Oh my God, I can't believe it's happening.

[Cece Lera]

This is how Miranda and I connected, actually. Like, I did not know she was a fan of the podcast. And it's like, well, it's wonderful, because now I'm a fan of her novel and therefore a fan of yours, because that's how it works when you love a novel. Okay, so take me back to the Miranda that decided she was going to write a book. Like, a book to be published. Like, okay, who was that Miranda? Where was she in her life? Was this always the idea? Like, was this book always going to be the book that it became? Like, take me back to that Miranda.

[Miranda Schulman]

Okay, well, the Miranda that began writing a book, which was not this book. Okay. Worked at Planned Parenthood, so it felt kind of important to include that as part of my bio. And it was sort.

[Cece Lera]

It was the.

[Miranda Schulman]

I was in the donor services department at Planned Parenthood, and I was sort of would spend my days waiting for calls from donors who either wanted to increase or cancel monthly donations. So there was some downtime in between those calls. And I have been a writer my entire life. And so in those. In those down moments, I just sort of began writing on the side of my work computer. And. Yeah, and so that was a different book that ended up being like, I thought it was a novel. And then I finished a draft, looked back at it, and was like, oh, my God, I just wrote my life. And so then you had written a memoir. I had written, like, a memoir at the age of 22.

[Cece Lera]

Oh, my gosh.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah, it was. It was. So, of course, that is living in a drawer, but it was. It was an amazing experience. And it also taught me that I could write that amount of words, I guess, about specific characters, you know, and in a specific world. So from there, I began working on the draft that became harmless, which was nothing like harmless. It was really. It was kind of like a romantic comedy, which harmless certainly is not. Like, there's definitely comedy in harmless, and there's definitely a little bit of romance in harmless, but it's not a ROM com. It is not a rom com. It is not a ROM com. Wait, do you know your genre? Okay, so, like, how would you discover that?

[Cece Lera]

Because I. I have discovered that many authors are like, I don't actually know my genre. We're talking, like, accomplished writers. Various books under their belt.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah, I think. Okay, so I think it's literary suspense. That's. That's what I've been told, and that's what feels right to me. What would you say?

[Cece Lera]

I mean, I definitely feel suspenseful, but to me. Okay, so I actually got a question from one of our listeners because. Okay, to preface this. This question, one of our listeners sent in a question. I Shared in my story, said I was going to interview you and was like, do you guys have any questions for Miranda? Like, obviously, no one's read your novel, but they looked the novel up, and one of the people asked me, wait, so I'm reading her Goodreads. That's what they said. I'm reading her Goodreads. Is this sad girl lit. Now, I feel strongly it is not sad girl lit. And in fairness, the person only read the Goodreads. Right, Right. And I'm pretty sure they mean, like, the pitch on Goodreads. I don't know if they mean. I don't know what they mean. But I think. I think it's more literary. Definitely literary fiction, potentially book club fiction. Just. And here's why I think it might be book club fiction. There's this angst and this existentialism that you explore in the. This friendship between these three women. I'm saying three. It's almost four. Because you also have. And I feel like this is a good moment for me to tell people what your book is about. So. Yeah. Because I know you people listening are probably like, what are you guys talking about? So essentially, we have. We have B, Right? And this is how the book begins. So I'm trying to think of how to talk about this. So Bea is crying over a jar of olives. Like, that's how we meet her in the first chapter. It's her sister's memorial, which was delayed two years because of COVID and Audrey, who's her sister, had substance abuse. Like, she was addicted to, I believe, heroin. And B was, like, taking care of her. And, like, her sister was obviously their mom's favorite. And she is getting into a fight with her roommate about the jar of olives because her roommate ate one of them. And the jar of olives reminds her of her sister because it was the last thing her sister ate. Point is, I say this book is about friendship, about three friends, Bea, Tatum and Leila, who decide, because Bea has this idea to open up a kennel. Right. But it's a childhood idea. And this is what I mean by existentialism. So much of this book is, when we were kids, we all had dreams. I'm going to grow up and insert whatever we were going to do here. And we all had crazy ideas. Like, my sister wanted to work at SeaWorld. Do you know what I'm saying? Usually it's not rational. We're kids, and these young adults, they decide to do the thing. And I'm not going to say whether they do it or not because I feel like that's a spoiler. But it's about their friendship and about how the dynamics change from when they were a kid. And so that existentialism to me, especially for readers like millennials, Gen Z. So much of the world is crazy right now and the fact that there's so much angst in this book that to me that that's. It's almost like literary angsty suspense. That's how I would say it. Does that make sense?

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah. I've also. Thank you so much for, for that summary. Yeah, I've, I've thought of it as a term that I learned. Weird girl lit. Vic.

[Cece Lera]

That does make sense.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yes. I think it may fit into that category and I love to hear that. It, it feels a little bit like it could, could be book club fiction because I like the idea of people talking about it and thinking about it in that way.

[Cece Lera]

It starts conversations.

[Miranda Schulman]

It really does.

[Cece Lera]

I actually flagged. I know we're not supposed to read from arcs guys, but please don't get mad at me for doing it. Lovely publisher. If you're listening, Dutton, don't get mad. But like, look at this. Look at this excerpt. Helplessness could be paralyzing. Terrifying. As an adult, she still often felt it about her life, but also about bloodthirsty, power hungry governments around the world. Yet even when faced with these irreparable slashes to the fabric of humanity, there were things she'd done and should do more of to take a stand. In the past, she'd protested alongside friends, held up cardboard signs, screams, enchanted, and marched until her feet ache. She'd phone banked for politicians she believed in. She'd call her representatives waiting for the beep and spoken passionately to their answering machines. She should do the same with her own life now, because she could. She wasn't a little kid anymore. And it goes on and I, if I keep reading, you guys are going to find out who is saying this. And I don't want to because I feel like that's a spoiler. But this, this idea of I'm a grown up now, I should have power, I should be able to do things. This is a universal feeling. And yet I'm paralyzed because it is something that again, generations like millennials, Gen Z, and I'm sure other generations too. It's probably not just us, but we've been feeling, which is like we are powerless against these power structures of the world. And that to me is a conversation starter in this book. Thread is woven throughout. Like I read One passage, but I could have read so many others. Right?

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think. I mean, that's what I was thinking about in terms of childhood dreams. Like, when you're a child, you think that anything can happen in your life, and as you grow up, you realize that's absolutely not the case. You know, there are so many things that you actually really can't do for many different reasons. Like maybe you need to make money or. Yeah, like, so I think that was really what I was thinking. And how out of control a person can feel over their own life, even when they're sort of doing as much as they possibly can, or at least, like, doing something that they can do, like, in support of what they believe in outside of their own life. You know, it's kind of hard sometimes to turn that inward.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

And I also. I thought a lot about the way that childhood dreams may appear in our adult lives, because I think that maybe there's actually a lot we can learn from the things that we dream of doing when we're very young. And even just, like, the kinds of things that maybe you talk to your parents about.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

Like, and they remind you that you really cared about at a certain point in your life and.

[Cece Lera]

Or with your best friends, like the girls.

[Unidentified Speaker]

Yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

Or your best friends, like, the women do. Yes, yes, yes, totally. And I was sort of thinking also about, like, you know, the ways in which those desires endure and then the ways in which those entire desires do not at all endure and what might drive a person sort of. I guess. I guess I was thinking a lot about, like, late 20s life and the fact that you can often feel a little bit lost in your late 20s. Sorry, I feel like I'm. I feel like I'm rambling right now.

[Cece Lera]

No, no, no, no.

[Miranda Schulman]

Really?

[Cece Lera]

No.

Because I think that that's.

That's the conversation starter, though. And this is why, like, I get the literary. I'm not trying to say it's not because the writing is undeniably literary. Okay. But to me, the thing that's going to start conversations around this book, and if I were reading it for a book club, like, I would be like, what was your childhood dream? You know, asking people around the table. And. And what does it say about you? Who did you tell? Who did you not tell? When was the last time you thought about it?

[Unidentified Speaker]

What?

[Cece Lera]

When did he die? Because every childhood dream dies, even if you end up pursuing it. Like, I am currently living my childhood dream. I work with books, but it did die at a certain point. Do you Know what I'm saying? Like, a version of it always dies. So this is what I'm saying. Like, to me, huge book club fiction. I highly recommend this to anyone who really wants to get in touch with that version of themselves that was idealistic and dreamy and just, you know, would take the world by storm. And when I'm a grown up, I'll get to do xyz.

[Miranda Schulman]

And.

[Cece Lera]

And I forget which one of the protagonists was thinking this specific part, but there's a part in the book in which she's saying, I think, I believe it's 27. She's like, look at me, I'm a full grown adult. Like, I'm 27. And what do I have to show for it? You know? And this has changed. I think millennials were the first generation where this changed. Where it used to be that, you know, adulthood looked the same. You typically graduated from college or learned a trade and had the house and 1.5 kids or 2.5 kids or whatever the 0.5 kids situation was, and, and, and bought a car. Like there was, There was a script. Right.

[Miranda Schulman]

And there's no more script because the

[Cece Lera]

world has changed and it's all a dumpster fire. And that creates existentialism and, like, issues around existentialism. Right?

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah.

[Cece Lera]

So I think, yeah, maybe we're both rambling, but it's. It's a fun ramble. This is what I'm saying.

[Miranda Schulman]

It's a fun ramble. And it also is kind of like, for me, what I really enjoyed writing about, like, or what really drew me to write about this, I think was also sort of the inherent humor in the idea of these people who they really are not. They. They do not want to devote their lives to caring for dogs. They actually really don't.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah, 100%. It's not, it's not a book about people who like dogs. I thought it was going to be in the beginning. Yeah, it's like, it's a childhood dream. It's the kennel. Although they want to make a profit, and I'm not sure how that would happen. Like, that sounds wild, like, but I got that that was intentional, right? Like, that was you showing us that their heads are in the cloud. Well, one person's head is in the cloud.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Like, I want it to be a little bit funny and not really make sense, you know, and you can see that. And they can see that. And yet they're still. They're still invested in it. Yeah, they're still invested in it. And they're still doing it because actually, that's kind of. I mean, that's the kind of lost that you can feel at this specific moment in your life when you're like, yeah, I don't really know how to. Where to go from here, I guess. And. And what? I don't know. Yeah. So I think that was what I was thinking about. And. And my childhood dream was to open a dog kennel. That was my childhood dream with my two very close childhood friends and my sister. So it really, like. And I was. So that was what started the wheels turning for me, I guess, was like, what would have to happen in my life to make myself the me that exists today. Want to go back in time in some form and actually do that?

[Cece Lera]

Yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

And. Yeah, so that. That was what. That was the germ of the book, I think. And that made me. It made me really laugh to think about myself doing that, because I know that that would not make me happy, but it also made me think about the pieces of myself that still exist from that child who really did want to do that. And. Yeah, so that was the germ for me. And I'm so glad that it resonated in any way and feels like something that people would want to talk about and maybe relate to. And. Yeah. Thank you so much.

[Cece Lera]

I have a question.

Is Bea the protagonist that you're closest with? And I ask because I start the

[Miranda Schulman]

story with her, or is it Layla?

[Cece Lera]

Or is it Tatum? Is that how I pronounce it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or maybe Audrey. I don't know. Is there. Is there a protagonist? I mean, I guess it has to be a protagonist. It has to be someone with a point. But is there someone that you're like, it's easier for me to access this person's psyche.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yes. Okay. So definitely Tatum. Tatum is definitely the person whose psyche it was easiest for me to access. I mean, b. Interesting baby. Took a lot of time to get right. She's sort of all over the place. There's a lot of. There's a lot of different things that you have to. I had to figure out how to justify about her. I think, you know, she's a person who's living alone in the world, but she has pretty serious, like, mental disorders, you know, so it was a lot of calibrating with Bea. But I also, for Bea, what interested me was that I think without getting too in the weeds because people have not read the book yet.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah, yeah. And no spoilers initial stuff. But, like, we are a no spoilers podcast. I feel Very strongly about this.

[Miranda Schulman]

No spoilers. Thank you. Thank you. And honestly, that is important in this book, I think. But, yeah, I think so. She really thrives. She really wants to take care of people. She wants to feel needed. That's the way that she connects with people. And I think that's something that a lot of us can relate to, like, the desire to feel needed, because that makes a person feel safe in a

[Cece Lera]

relationship, and it's like a part of her identity.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah, absolutely. And that's also why the. The dog kennel thing appeals to her as an adult. She wants to feel needed. Yeah. So I could relate to that part of it, that part of her psyche. But Tatum is a person who I feel like I know in a much deeper way. You know, sort of interesting. Yeah. And Bea was constantly surprising me, but Tatum, I felt like I was sort of, like, in it with her. And not that I've had any of the same experiences that she goes through, but I felt the way she thinks, I guess. Yeah. The way that she thinks. The way she thinks. And she felt really important to me. Her character feels really important to me. Because my desire, anyway, is that she sort of grounds Bea's sort of recklessness, and I can see that wildness, you know, sort of. And then there's Tatum, who maybe is a person who's having a lot of feelings that maybe aren't the most, like, attractive, but that maybe we can relate to a little bit more in certain ways. Yeah, 100%. I'm so glad. I'm so glad.

[Cece Lera]

Is it A. Is it. So was the beginning always beast point of view? Like, is that. Was that always the entry point into the story, or did you change it?

[Miranda Schulman]

It was. It was always the entry point into the story. It really was. I. I will say that there was another version of the story. I wonder if it counts as a spoiler that. I'm saying I don't think it does that. That Audrey.

[Cece Lera]

If it does, we'll cut it. No, we know. We know this from, like, the pitch copy.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yes.

[Cece Lera]

Audrey B's sister is dead. Like, it's. She's going to her sister's memorial, right? Like. Yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yes. Yes, she is dead. In another version of this book, she was not dead. And so it was actually. I had four POVs actually, in another version of this book. And. But it always started with B. It always started with C. And B was Always had sort of obsessive tendencies and a lot of jealousy. And I love her. Yeah, she's fascinating. I'm so glad.

[Cece Lera]

Like, she Behaves so badly. Like, she. Like, I'm not going to say who or why she follows people. I like that about her. Like, I'm always saying protagonists need protagonism. Right. Like, the plot can't just happen to you. You need to make the plot happen too. You know, like, the protagonists need to make things happen, and Bea makes things happen. Just saying.

[Miranda Schulman]

She makes things happen. And I will say, like, what really kills me about that, the following is that she's a very, very lonely person. And that is actually her.

[Cece Lera]

She's vulnerable. Yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yes. And that's like, her very misguided way of spending time with people.

[Cece Lera]

But that came across. See, you never spelled it out. But that came across like it was. It was so clear that she was doing that because she simultaneously, again, wanted to be needed. Like you said, like, wanted to spend time with people, but also didn't feel safe enough to spend time with people. So, like, putting that distance, that was her way of connecting. And I'm not saying it was right, because of course it's not okay to go around following people.

[Miranda Schulman]

But.

[Cece Lera]

But we want interesting, fascinating protagonists. We don't want boring protagonists in our lives. Like, down with boring protagonists. And B is not boring.

[Miranda Schulman]

She. I'm so glad you feel that way. I feel the same way. She is not boring. Yeah. And that was also why I sort of felt it was really fun to discover her. And I really did a lot of discovering as I was writing her. And that's kind of how I write everything. Like, I'm sort of. I'm discovering story as I go. I'm discovering characters as I go.

[Cece Lera]

How long did it take you, like, to write the full draft and, like. Yeah, like, essentially, like, the creation process up until the time you were ready to query agents. Tell us.

[Miranda Schulman]

So I. I actually, honestly, I did it. I wrote this draft, the first draft, very quickly. I did The Jamie Attenberg's 1,000 words a day over the summer of 2021, I think. Yeah, that works so well for me because I wasn't overthinking anything. I wasn't. Nothing that I was doing was precious. That's so important for me when I'm working on a first draft is like, I'm creating a world and maybe an energy and, like, a color for the book, perhaps, but I'm not. Nothing about the specifics is set in stone. Nothing. So. But that's the best way that I work, I think, is, like, where I just understand the world and there's a draft where I'm just understanding the World. And then there's a draft after that draft where typically I throw out that draft, the first draft.

[Cece Lera]

Like, do you start over? Like, do you totally start over? Blank page on it.

[Miranda Schulman]

I wrote three totally unique drafts of this book before I began revising any of them. Yeah. Because that's just how it worked out for me this time. I hope it's not always that way because that is. It takes a lot of time, obviously.

[Cece Lera]

Well. But also, you know, good. Good books can't be rushed. You know, it's going to take as long as it takes. At least it's worth it because in the end, you have this amazing product. Right.

[Miranda Schulman]

I hope. Yeah. I mean, thank you. Yeah. I think I definitely. I feel really happy and proud of the process that I went through to get for the book to be what it is now. But. Yeah. But it's also interesting, you know, as I start working on another project, like, the things that I'm taking from my first.

[Cece Lera]

Yes.

[Miranda Schulman]

Journey to a finished novel and the things that I'm leaving behind a little bit. And also just like, you know, of course, I'm. Year to year, we're in different life circumstances. And so, of course, your writing practice has to change as your life changes. So.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

So.

[Cece Lera]

And it's something that, like, I know so many writers who say this like their first book does often take longer because you are learning how to reach a final draft, like a draft that you're happy with. So I think that part's normal. But, like, what about the agent part of it? Like, how did. Okay, how did you meet your agent? How did that happen? Tell us about that meet. Cute story.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah. Yeah. So I. With one of the very early drafts of this book, I applied to a fellowship program that is sort of hosted by Stony Brook University called Bookends. And it's like a novel revision program. So you spend the entire year revising that novel, first with a pod of three people, including yourself, and then. And those are other, like, students of the fellowship. And then the second half of the program, you are assigned a mentor who is like an accomplished author, and they work on. Or they. In my case, my mentor, like, sent me sort of an editorial letter. And then I spent the. I guess it was probably like four or five months in the end, working through revisions based on her editorial letter. And my mentor was Karen Bender, who is fantastic. She's amazing. Yeah. So then at the end of that program, we were each matched with an agent, and the end of the graduation portion of the program happens at the Southampton Writers Conference. Yes. So at the end of the program, every fellow is matched with an agent. And that's exciting.

[Cece Lera]

How many fellows are there?

[Miranda Schulman]

There are 12 fellows. So there's one unique agent per fellow.

[Cece Lera]

Is that how it works?

[Miranda Schulman]

So actually there's one agent per three fellows. So there were four agents, I believe, my year. Yeah. I sort of went into my meeting. The understanding surrounding these agent meetings is that you are not going to be offered representation necessarily. It's really just sort of like a meeting where someone who really knows their stuff is going to tell you where your book might fit in the market. Right. But I got to get like a

[Cece Lera]

consultation, like a meeting with them. That's what the match is.

[Miranda Schulman]

Exactly.

[Cece Lera]

Fair. Yeah. And this happens at a conference you mentioned, is that right?

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah, yeah. It happens at the Southampton Writers Conference. So. And that's also at the beginning of the fellowship, you also spend a weekend at the Southampton Writers Conference and then at the end of the program you spend another weekend there. And at the final weekend, that's when the agent meetings happen. And I got incredibly lucky and the agent I was matched with wanted to work on the project, so. Yeah. And she's fantastic. And we've, you know, she's, she has done so right by me. She's an amazing, amazing agent. Yeah. I'm so, so, so, so, so, so lucky to be working with her. So. And her name is Sabrina Tights, in case.

[Cece Lera]

Yes.

[Miranda Schulman]

You should shout her out so people can query her. Yeah, yeah. Sabrina Tights at wme. Yeah. So I. That, that was my sort of not normal agent querying situation with me.

[Cece Lera]

So you guys matched and you had like a meeting and then. Did she request a fold? Did you send it to her? Yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

So actually this is what I should have said. Those agent meetings happen after the agent has read a full draft of the manuscript. So the thing that's.

[Cece Lera]

Oh, that really thing, then. I know you're manuscript. That is special. Oh, good job. This is such a good fellowship. I like that. That's smart. Because, like, as an agent, if we only read 10 pages, and in fairness, if we're going to do this in volume, that's the only way.

[Unidentified Speaker]

Between school drop offs, hitting the gym and diving into client calls, I don't have the mental bandwidth for a wardrobe crisis. I need pieces that feel effortless and comfortable, but still look sharp. Quince has been my go to for that, especially now as I'm counting down the days until the summer finally hits. Their elevated fabrics make me feel together without any overthinking. It's that rare combo when I know I look good whether I'm chasing around my kids or sitting down for a meeting. Right now I'm in the thick of balancing client work and triathlon training sessions, so my spring wardrobe has to do double duty. Quince makes that transition really easy with pieces that feel as good as they look. They're using high end quality 100 European linen, organic cotton and ultra soft denim, which is exactly what I need when I want to look sharp without feeling restricted. I'm a huge fan of wear on repeat items and Quince's linen collection is the gold standard for that. Their lightweight pants, dresses and tops just started 30 doll. They're breathable and effortless, which is a lifesaver whether I'm recording an episode, headed to the gym or just keeping up with my kids. It's an instant outfit that makes it getting out the door so much easier. If you're like me and appreciate a smart financial move, you're going to love their model. Because everything at quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar luxury brands, they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen so you're actually paying for the quality and craftsmanship rather than a brand markup. It's a high end style that actually makes sense for a busy budget. I'm so eager for the weather to warm up so I can get my linen shorts on machine washable linen I can wear every day. Sign me up. I bought them in black so they'll look classy with a black slide sandal. Or I can pop on some running shoes and chase after the kids to the park. And the price I had to double check because I was shocked at how affordable they are. I can't wait to wear my black linen shorts. Refresh your every day with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.comtsnatyaw for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q I N C E.comtsnatya for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comtya Travel season is almost here. I've got my packing list and I'm ready to go. We just got back from a family weekend trip to Quebec to work on our French. Up next, a summer trip to Germany to introduce the kids to the Alps and hear a new language. Plus our 10th anniversary trip to Italy later this year. I love hearing my Italian husband speak Italian. If you have travel coming up, join me in using Rosetta Stone to learn some local languages. There's Something about summer that just feels like travel. Shake off the winter and get ready to move. Learning a new language is the perfect way to channel that momentum into a skill that opens up the world. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive methods help you naturally absorb your new language without memorizing random vocabulary lists or relying on translations. Instead, you learn by connecting words, visuals, and meaning in context, the way language is meant to be learned. Working in the publishing business means my days are often packed with meetings and manuscripts. But I love how simple these lessons are to fit into my schedule. Whether I have five minutes between emails or an hour on the weekend, I can access my lessons lessons from my desktop or the mobile app. Since we're heading to Italy, I've been using my true accent, which gives me real time feedback on my pronunciation so I can sound more natural. When we're visiting local vineyards, it's like having a personal coach to help me communicate with confidence. Rosetta Stone offers 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish, French, German, and Japanese. So you can find one that fits your next big adventure. Ready to start learning a new language this summer? Visit rosettastone.com today today to accept. Explore Rosetta Stone and choose the language that's right for you. Go to Rosetta Stone.com today now and begin your language learning journey.

[Cece Lera]

But like, in a special conference situation, if I read a whole manuscript, then, then it's. It's a totally different conversation. Gotcha.

[Miranda Schulman]

Gotcha. Yeah, yeah, it was. It's. That's what's really, really special about the agent meetings. Yeah. And they can give you, like, really comprehensive feedback and it's a different kind of feedback than a mentor or like another author might give you. Yeah. So it's really, really valuable. And it would have been really valuable either way, but I got very lucky and at that point. So then she offered to represent me and she was incredibly patient and wonderful and she said basically that I could take my time and make a decision in my own time and she would be there. And I, at the end of the fellowship, I had to work very, very quickly to finish a draft, and I knew. Knew that I could, on my own, bring it to a place that I felt a little bit better about it. You know, I felt like I could. I could revise it myself for a little while because I knew what I wanted to do. And so I spent, I spent like nine months revising after that point, and I stayed in touch with Sabrina. Thank you.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

I stayed in touch.

[Cece Lera]

She didn't rush. I love not.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah. And. But I. I knew she was. I really knew she was my person because. Yeah, she was so enthusiastic, so supportive, and so patient. Like, I could not have asked her.

[Cece Lera]

Also, like, a very ethical agent. Right. Because, like, I feel like someone who's like, take your time. I'm not putting a clock on this.

[Miranda Schulman]

It's.

[Cece Lera]

It's not that agents don't get to put a clock as long as everyone's being honest and the clock is reasonable, but it is. It does speak volumes about how ethical she is. And that's really awesome app.

[Miranda Schulman]

Absolutely. Because I think she also really understood that it was my very first experience speaking to another agent. Like, speaking to any agent.

[Cece Lera]

Of course.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah. And so she was really, really patient and wonderful. And then we signed together in February of 2024. 2024. Yes. I graduated from bookends in 2023. And then in February of 2024, I sent her the draft that I had revised, and then we signed. I signed with her, and then we went on submission, like, maybe two and a half months later or so.

[Cece Lera]

Exciting. Did you guys do revisions together before submitting?

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah, we did a few. We did a few. It was. It was not, like, tweaks. Yeah, like little tweaks. Yep.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

And then we went out on submission. Yeah.

[Cece Lera]

And wait, how long did it take to hear back from editor I.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yet again. Yet again, I got really lucky in terms of this part of the process. She sent me a list of, like, we. She talked me through each person that she was going to submit it to and explained why they would be a good fit in her mind, and then we went on submission. I guess maybe I'm misstating the amount of time, but I think we went on submission at the end of May of 2024. So it was February to May, and then so maybe it was like, about three months, but. And I. I signed or I was offered a deal in the middle of June, I think. So. Yeah. So it was like, two weeks, which I'm Can't. I was like, maybe a little bit more than two weeks. But, yeah, I'm so. I was so, so, so lucky. And I ended up with the perfect editor for me.

[Cece Lera]

Yay.

[Miranda Schulman]

I'm. I love her. So. Yeah.

[Cece Lera]

Okay, you have to tell us, because I know who your editor is, and I adore her.

[Bianca]

Okay.

[Cece Lera]

Please shout out the lovely Pilar. Come on.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yes. Pilar Garcia Brown at Dutton. She is. There is no one who I could like. I'm so lucky to have worked with her on this book. And she's fabulous.

[Cece Lera]

Taste like fabulous. Like, she's known for her great taste.

[Miranda Schulman]

She's brilliant.

[Cece Lera]

Very discerning, very discreet.

Starting.

[Miranda Schulman]

She's brilliant. And I felt so beyond honored and continue to feel, like, overwhelmed in a way. I still can't believe this happened. And I cannot believe I ended up with the team that I ended up with. It's Pilar. It's my amazing marketer, Isabelle Da Silva. It is my publicist, Lauren Morrow, who is just. They're all so beyond incredible. And I'm so lucky to have wound up with this for you.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah. You know, we always say it only takes one yes, but the truth is that one yes can ripple into many, many yeses from many people on the team. And that's awesome to you, and I love that.

[Miranda Schulman]

Okay, so, yeah.

[Cece Lera]

Did you work on edits with Pilar and what was that process like?

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah, I. We did three rounds of edits. The first round was more. Was, you know, more structural edits, I would say, and took a lot longer and was a much heavier lift, I would say. Most of the edits from that first round revolved around the ending, which. Okay, because I think maybe. I wonder if you feel this way, but the book, the beginning, maybe three fourths of the book sort of has one tone, and then the ending sort of becomes a little bit. Maybe a little bit, like, faster or something. Yeah, yeah, like a little bit, maybe.

[Cece Lera]

I didn't feel it when I was reading it.

[Miranda Schulman]

Okay. I didn't feel it when I was reading it.

[Cece Lera]

So I felt like the resolution of. There are arcs. Like.

[Miranda Schulman]

But.

[Cece Lera]

But no, I don't think I felt that way.

No.

Because I would. I would have remembered.

[Miranda Schulman]

Okay. Well, that. That actually makes me really happy because I feel like then this revision, that round of revision was successful. But. Yeah, because I think. I think maybe the first draft that she read there was sort of a pace shift and she Gotcha. Really, really helped me sort of get that in check. And even if there is still a bit of a pace shift or a sort of a tone shift or whatever, I think she. She worked so hard and was so, so, so helpful as I was sort of honing that a little bit because it's. It would. This book is a lot of Took. Required a lot of calibration in a lot of different ways, I think. And, yeah, because it's sort of very introspective, but there's also a lot of plot. Anyway, three points of view and. Three points of view. Yes.

[Cece Lera]

So, yeah, it is a tall order, especially for a debut. It was a lot.

[Miranda Schulman]

It was a lot, but I. But then we had a second round, and it was less structural, but still just sort of like, I think it was a lot about B. Still a lot of making sure that what Bea's motivations are really track. Making sure that sort of when she sort of flies off the handle, it fits with the rest of who she is a little bit, which was sort of. That was the thing for me that was the hardest to get right, I think, out of anything throughout the process of writing this book. But. Yeah, and then from there, it was like another round that was even smaller edits. And then, yeah, it was three rounds. And now here we are about to have your debut.

[Cece Lera]

I love it. So. Okay. Another question I want to ask you is about breaking into the industry access community. Like, how do you. How do you become a contender in this industry? And a lot of that has to do with, like, being around the right people and building the relationships that you have to build. Fostering community. We talk all the time about the importance of. It could be something as small as tagging authors on social media in a positive review, anything like being a good literary citizen, participating in the literary community. What was that experience like for you and what are your general thoughts on that?

[Miranda Schulman]

So I am extremely lucky because a family member of mine at this point, my boyfriend of 10 years, his mother is Meg Wolitzer, and she has absolutely been an amazing support, and I'm so, so, so lucky to have benefited from that. And, you know, she's incredibly generous in terms of feedback and. Does she read your. She reads my work. She does. Whenever. Yes. It's incredibly, incredibly wonderful. And yes, it's another. Another. I'm just still sort of in awe that this is where I've ended up, because it's. I mean, my dad also was and is a writer, and he published a collection of short stories the year I was born, and, you know, to an. With an independent publisher. So he, growing up, was someone I turned to, and he. He read, like, all of my essays when I was in school. And I have always sent him any creative work that I. I'm. I'm working on. But, yeah. And so then I met Charlie, and then I met Meg through Charlie, obviously, and she has just been absolutely amazing. And it's through her that I found out about this program, bookends, this fellowship, because this is a program that she started, and she read a draft of my novel that I had one of the many beginning very, very, very early drafts.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

And she thought that I would maybe really benefit from booking, so she recommended that I apply. And I'm so, so, so grateful because really, everything has happened as a result of me doing that program well. And I have work and my hard work. Let us not discount that.

[Cece Lera]

It's very important.

[Miranda Schulman]

Thank you.

[Cece Lera]

Can I. Can we just take a moment to say, like, how cool it is that, like, she's essentially your mother in law. Right. Like, you guys been dating for 10 years. I'm just going to upgrade her to your mother in law right now.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cece Lera]

How cool that, like, you have this relationship with your mother in law. Because I have a great relationship with mine. And I think that it's just something that if we have more of that in the world, better things happen because it's women supporting women, so.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's also just been, you know, she has created, like, a true career, you know, out of writing. And that is, of course, it is absolutely amazing to witness that, you know, and learn from it. And so few people have that perspective. So I'm incredible. I'm so lucky to be able to look to her and learn from her in so many ways and also just, yeah, have her in my corner. I'm so, so, so lucky. And I think it's really important to be transparent about the ways in which we are lucky, you know, because luck is a huge.

[Cece Lera]

We all have advantages.

[Miranda Schulman]

Listen.

[Cece Lera]

Yes.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cece Lera]

This is true of every single person in every situation. And that varies.

[Miranda Schulman]

And yeah.

[Cece Lera]

You know, the Interestings was definitely one of the novels that shaped me. So I think that, like, that the idea of being able to get feedback from someone like Meg, like, that's invaluable and it just makes the work stronger. And absolutely, you should definitely take advantage of that because that's. That is how the world works. And I love that we're talking about it. So. Okay, so you must have gotten a lot of good writing advice. Like, what is the best writing advice you've ever gotten?

[Miranda Schulman]

Okay, so one thing that Meg says often is she says that you should write what obsesses you. This is a Meg quote. I must give her credit for this quote. And I think in the. In terms of harmless, I took that kind of literary. I mean, literally. Sorry.

[Cece Lera]

Because there is a lot of obsession in this book. It is a book filled with obsession.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah, there's a lot of obsession in the book, but also, like, nostalgia is a theme that obsesses me. Like, I'm completely. That's my entire life right now. Is sort of thinking about the past and thinking about loss and thinking about, like, growing up. That's just the phase of life I'm in. So. So I learned from that, and I've applied that to. To the kinds of things that I enjoy writing about and I. And I allow myself to write about because. Yeah. Yeah. Because of that wonderful, wonderful advice that I always. I hold close.

[Cece Lera]

That is very good advice. I like that. I think that changes it. So if someone loves your novel, what other novel would you say they should read?

[Miranda Schulman]

That's a great question. I. One of my, like, major, major, major influences, which is not even a novel. It's a short story. It's called the Yellow Wallpaper, and it's by Charlotte Perkins Gilman. And it's something. It's a short story I read in. I think it was middle school. It's really disturbing, though. And it's also about obsession, and it's also about loneliness, and it's also. It's, you know, it's a little bit about psychosis. I won't say more in terms of harmless, but. Yeah. But I. That's a short story that I think has probably the biggest impact on my writing out of any other thing that I've read. Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier, that's also, like, the. The books that are about women doing bad. Like, just having weird impulses and.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

Making bad decisions. Those are my favorite kinds of books because I can relate to them in so many ways, even if not to, like, such a dramatic degree. I love Patricia Highsmith, honestly. Also, like, not to just go with a lot of sort of older, not less contemporary literary fiction, but Jane Eyre is also really important to me and is a book that I oddly listened to on, like, an audiobook form. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Like, many, many years ago. And I was. I could not stop listening. I was totally obsessed. I was, like, taking very long subway rides with my headphones on, like, completely zoned out and missing my stop. Y. Because, again, it was just sort of creepiness. Like, women experiencing creepiness in the world of, like, sort of spooky, creepy. And even if that's not my life in so many ways, it can. It's still, like, sort of an internal thing. And there's so much, like. I don't know. Fear is kind of intrinsic also to being a woman in certain devastating ways.

[Cece Lera]

I wonder how much of it is, like, we want to. Because I have the same taste that you do. Like. Like, how much of this is, like, us wanting to live vicariously through in a Safe space. Because books are safe. Right. Like, you control. When you stop reading, you can close it. But us wanting to live vicariously through these women who are not living the script that society handed to them. Yeah.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yes.

[Cece Lera]

I think that's really interesting, too.

[Miranda Schulman]

Absolutely.

[Cece Lera]

Okay. Another question our listeners asked, which I really liked. What is your biggest fear as an authority? Wow. Biggest fear.

[Miranda Schulman]

That's a really good question. And it's something I'm thinking about all the time.

[Cece Lera]

Is it like losing a whole manuscript because, like, your computer got.

[Miranda Schulman]

Okay.

[Cece Lera]

Like, erased or something?

[Miranda Schulman]

Like, I feel like it's probably gonna

[Cece Lera]

be something like, all writerly fears are something like that. Like, very anxious.

[Miranda Schulman]

I mean, I am. I am so anxious. I am constant. I'm, like, in a state all the time. And often it's not something that I externalize, I think. But in my head, I am losing my shit. Dare I say, on the shit no one tells you about writing. Yeah. So definitely, I'm constantly emailing drafts to myself a million times. Okay.

[Cece Lera]

So that's not gonna happen. So that fear will not happen.

[Miranda Schulman]

That is not. Yeah. I think, like, right now I'm just, like, thinking about everyone in my life reading this book and thinking about all of the people having an opinion about it and just really. It's incredibly, incredibly vulnerable to put a book out into the world. And it's not. That part of it is only just dawning on me right now, I think, because it's just about to.

[Cece Lera]

Before, you might have stopped yourself from

including so much into the book.

[Miranda Schulman]

I think that's really true. I think that's really true. I feel lucky that it's only just sort of setting in the fear of actually just, like, you know, judgment. That's really my biggest fear right now as a debut author, like, who is about to have a book in the world for the very first time. But I also feel. I also feel prepared to receive criticism, you know, and also. And feel like everybody's not gonna. This book is not gonna resonate with everybody. That is totally okay with me.

[Cece Lera]

Nothing that is interesting is universally liked.

That's not how it works.

[Miranda Schulman]

That's. And I agree. I really, really agree with that. And it's taken me maybe, like, a little. A little while to get to this place where I am in agreement, like, in terms of my own work, at least. But. Yeah. But I really. I feel proud of writing something that not everyone is going to love. That actually, I love. That is something that I'm really excited, and I'm excited to hear what people think. Good or bad. So, you know.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah, I like that. I love that for you. Okay, so for our final question, I always ask anyone I interview, like, please plug in a book. It can be a book that you're excited to read, but you haven't read yet. It can be a book that you just finished and you're loving a book that you're reading right now. Anything. It has to be a book that you're.

[Miranda Schulman]

Some.

[Cece Lera]

There's excitement around this book in some way.

[Miranda Schulman]

Okay. Okay. Well, there are so many books that I'm really, really excited about reading. One that comes to mind is a book. This. I have not read it. It's not out yet. I think it'll be out this week, actually. Maybe tomorrow. It's called A Good Person by Kristin King. Yes. I just. I think it's going to be so up my alley, is really all I have to say. Like, I think it's. I think it'll be up both our alleys, Cece.

[Cece Lera]

Ooh.

[Miranda Schulman]

Because it's also sort of weird, creepy vibes. Women doing bad things. Yes. And Kristin's amazing. So that's a book I'm really excited about and have not read yet and is coming out tomorrow, so I cannot wait to have it. But yeah, and it's also going to be made. It's going to be a movie already.

[Cece Lera]

Oh, my God. That's so cool.

[Miranda Schulman]

Yeah. So anyway, I'm really. I'm really, really excited about that one. And I'm constantly reading. I just finished rereading in the Cut by Susanna Moore recently, which is like an erotic thriller. That is. It's a wild. It's a wild book, I will say. But I really, really. I enjoyed rereading it. And that's. And she's also sort of in an influence, I would say. So. Anyway, those are. That's one book that I just finished reading, rereading, and then another book that I'm really excited to read.

[Cece Lera]

Our super fans will know that whenever I ask authors to plug in a book, they do at least two, not only one.

It's a thing.

It's a problem. Jennifer Close, I will never forget. Jennifer Close was like, oh, yeah, I'll plug in a book. I think she said, like, seven. So thank you for continuing the statistic of authors not being able to name only one book. We appreciate it.

[Miranda Schulman]

Go on. I could go on, but I won't.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah, I know. I know.

[Miranda Schulman]

You're like.

[Cece Lera]

You're not yourself. Anyway, Randa, thank you. I'm gonna hold up your arc once more. I'll just throw the post its Guys, I'm trying to hide the post its. I have so many post its. I've annotated this book so much. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for writing this amazing novel. I cannot wait to celebrate with you at your book launch. I'm really excited and congratulations.

[Miranda Schulman]

Thank you so much Cece. This has been an absolute joy and I love this podcast as I said before, so I'm just thrilled. Thank you for everything.

[Cece Lera]

Thank you for being here.

[Bianca]

And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one yes. Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader Matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one for the summer, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 1st of June, with the matchup emails going out on the 2nd of June. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page.

[Cece Lera]

What's up everyone? This is cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled, and I wasn't surprised at all because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with hooks and of course, in my submissions inbox. But at the same time, I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean, it's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So Here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible. To make agents crave it. To make agents want to read more. That's why so excited about my upcoming course Starting it How to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure that your stories beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the best one, the best place to start, and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things. When it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to include context but but not weigh it down with too much backstory and what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline. Most of all, I'm going to show you how to make readers want to turn to Chapter two. Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepare to take lots of notes.

Notes.

We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques.

Plus a super fun surprise that I

can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.