The Shit No One Tells You About Writing – Episode Summary

Episode: Insights from Marjan Kamali and Kirsten Miller

Date: October 9, 2025
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra
Guests: Kirsten Miller, Marjan Kamali

Episode Overview

This episode features two insightful interviews with acclaimed authors Kirsten Miller (“The Change,” “Lulu Dean’s Little Library of Banned Books,” “Women of Wild Hill”) and Marjan Kamali (“The Lion Women of Tehran,” “The Stationery Shop”). Both authors open up about their creative processes, writing journeys, the role of emotion (rage, revenge, hope), and the importance of finding one’s unique path as a writer. The discussions are especially tailored for emerging writers looking for honest advice and the realities of life in the world of publishing.

Interview 1: Kirsten Miller on "Women of Wild Hill"

[03:08] Introduction & Cover Art

• Kirsten discusses receiving her new hardcovers and her involvement in the cover’s design.
• The bonfire imagery on the cover represents the family tree and generational legacy of the story.
• Quote: “I just, I loved the idea… of a nice witchy bonfire that also symbolizes the Duncan family tree.” – Kirsten Miller [03:54]

[05:09] The Bloodline Motif

• Kirsten personally designed the “bloodline” graphic in the book as a literal and metaphorical representation of inheritance, likening it to veins or lava.
• Reinforces the theme of secrets, gifts, and curses passed down generations.

[07:49] Writing Process & The Role of Rage

• Kirsten’s recent books came quickly, but not always easily; “Lulu Dean” was written fast while others took years.
• Quote: “You have to write something that you’re passionate about…a subject or vendetta…to push you past all of the self-worth doubt, all of the pain and suffering that goes into writing.” – Kirsten Miller [08:14]
• Rage, revenge, or other powerful emotions are necessary as fuel.

[09:51] Discovery vs. Planning

• Contrasts books that “arrive fully formed” vs. those requiring deep exploration.
• “Women of Wild Hill” was exploratory; Kirsten loved discovering the story and characters as she wrote.

[11:05] Each Book Teaches You

• Describes the individuality of each book, using the analogy of raising children.

[11:55] The Prologue: Purpose & Creation

• CeCe asks Kirsten to read the prologue, praised for its power and narrative intent.

• The prologue, written after the bulk of the novel, sets up themes of inheritance and the danger and sacrifice entwined with gifts.

• Explores how starting with a non-protagonist (the murdered witch, Bessie) builds lore and foreshadowing.

  “There’s something that we do quietly, without the statues and… glorious epics. But it’s every bit as courageous as anything else that’s ever been done. And we do it all the time.” – Kirsten Miller [16:48]

[17:36] Structure & Multiple Timelines

• Discusses how the novel is divided into parts: present-day protagonists, generational flashbacks, and then action.
• The weaving of timelines and first-person chapters from Bessie provides context and maintains the narrative pace.

[19:58 – 21:15] Crafting the Narrative

• Kirsten describes the complex process of rearranging story elements to maintain momentum and avoid losing characters.

[21:15] Maintaining Tension & Reveals

• Using “curiosity seeds” and strategic chapter placement to speed pacing and maintain reader intrigue.
• Quote: “Half of writing is keeping yourself entertained… If I get to a point in a book where I’m bored to tears, I set it aside… But if you sit back and ask, ‘What would I want at this moment?’ – you’ll come up with something.” – Kirsten Miller [26:00]

[28:02] Building an Ensemble Cast

• Family members are named after powerful women or goddesses; names were chosen first and influenced character.
• Sought to capture the blend of individuality and inherited traits that define families.
• Quote: “It’s about how family defines us—but also how it gets us wrong.” – Kirsten Miller [29:57]

Interview 2: Marjan Kamali on "The Lion Women of Tehran"

[36:11] Introduction & Connection

• Carly shares a personal story of reading “The Lion Women of Tehran” with her mother-in-law, highlighting stories as vital for connection.
• Marjan emphasizes storytelling as an antidote to societal division.

[39:12] Writing Journey & Timelines

• Marjan’s first novel took 13 years from conception to publication.
• Quote: “Please remember that life is long and you need to throw away the clock… You just have to tell the story you want to tell in the best way you possibly can. If that takes 13 years, so be it.” – Marjan Kamali [39:58]

[42:31] Best Decision: Listening to Yourself

• On trusting her “inner core” over seeking external validation.
• Quote: “You don’t need anybody’s encouragement, nor their permission, nor their approval. All you need is to know inside yourself, this is what I want to do. This is what I need to do. This is something I will give myself.” – Marjan Kamali [42:31]

[44:24] Collaboration & Teamwork

• Importance of building a team that shares your vision.
• Comparing the journey to Dorothy in “Wizard of Oz”—gaining companions who help, but staying true to your own vision.

[47:22] The Writer’s Life: Solitude & Publicity

• Marjan enjoys both the solitary writing time and the social act of book promotion.
• Quote: “It’s as though this magic trick has happened… figments of your imagination have touched people and helped shape them.” – Marjan Kamali [48:08]

[50:21] Cultural Elements: The Evil Eye

• Discussion on the recurring motif of the evil eye, its ubiquity in many cultures, and its persistent psychological hold.
• Carly offers a practical ritual to ward off the evil eye (“throw salt over your left shoulder”).

[53:16] Defining Success

• Marjan reflects on her ever-moving goalposts (agent → book deal → awards), but identifies “inner freedom” as the real marker of success.
• Quote: “True success…is the ability to be free… free from constantly worrying about what other people think, or …always feeling like you have to strive or perform.” – Marjan Kamali [54:25]

[57:38] The "Sneaky Prologue" and Structure

• Discussion about how “The Lion Women of Tehran” begins with a non-labeled prologue, instilling immediate mystery and emotional stakes.
• Marjan routinely structures novels to begin in the future, go back in time, then return and move forward.
• Quote: “I want the reader to be invested right away. I want there to be a question right away… Reading and writing is all about questions.” – Marjan Kamali [61:12]

[64:39] POV Choices & Character

• Marjan challenged herself to write in first person, then realized Homa’s (the second protagonist) voice was necessary and strong.
• Differentiation is achieved structurally (tense, voice) and by each character’s deep individuality.
• “POV is one of the most delicious and fun ways to tell a story.” – Marjan Kamali [67:33]

[71:03] Tools, Process & Revision

• Marjan writes her early drafts longhand, using spiral notebooks and fountain pen.

• Starts with themes, then moves to character—doesn’t outline, embraces “playing in the sandbox.”

• During revision, she becomes “vicious,” reordering scenes for maximum emotional impact.

  Quote: “I come in, I’m like, all right, we’re going to get this in order. … Rearranged for maximum emotional impact. … For me, I’m going to change the chronology for maximum emotional impact.” – Marjan Kamali [73:08–74:45]

[75:50] Book Recommendation

• Marjan recommends Green Wild (middle grade), praising its joy and immersive quality outside her usual reading zone.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Kirsten Miller [08:14]: “You have to write something that you’re passionate about…”
• Marjan Kamali [39:58]: “Please remember that life is long…and you need to throw away the clock.”
• Kirsten Miller [29:57]: “It’s about how family defines us—but also how it gets us wrong.”
• Marjan Kamali [54:25]: “True success…is the ability to be free…”
• CeCe Lyra [21:15]: “There’s a lot of calibration… to avoid slowing down pacing, to reveal things that help the narrative move forward.”

Key Takeaways & Actionable Advice for Writers

• Write from Powerful Emotion: Both authors stress the importance of harnessing strong emotions (rage, passion, revenge) to push through the challenges of writing.
• Structure with Intention: Both “Women of Wild Hill” and “The Lion Women of Tehran” use non-linear structures, prologues, and braided narratives to maximize reader engagement.
• Don’t Rush the Journey: Kamali’s message—success can come at any pace. Be patient with your development and career.
• Listen to Yourself: The most critical voice is your own; permission and encouragement must come from within.
• Curiosity and Tension: Plant “curiosity seeds” and control pacing by moving elements around to keep both yourself and your readers engaged.
• Embrace Revision: Be ruthless in editing to order your scenes for emotional impact.
• Experiment with POV: Use structural techniques (tense, chapter order) and strong character voice to make multiple POVs work.
• Measure Success by Freedom and Meaning: External milestones matter, but “inner freedom” and impactful storytelling are paramount.

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Kirsten Miller Interview Begins: [02:50]
• On the Role of Rage: [07:49–09:26]
• Reading and Discussion of Prologue: [11:55]
• On Structure & Timelines: [17:36–21:15]
• Planting Curiosity Seeds: [21:15]
• Building the Ensemble Cast: [28:02]
• Marjan Kamali Interview Begins: [36:11]
• Writing Journey & Patience: [39:12]
• Best Decision (Trusting Self): [42:31]
• On Publicity/Promotion: [47:22]
• The Evil Eye & Cultural Legacy: [50:21]
• Measuring Success: [53:16]
• Prologue & Structure Discussion: [57:38]
• POV Choices: [64:39]
• Notebook Process and Revision: [71:03]
• Book Recommendation: [75:50]

Final Thoughts

This episode is a must-listen for emerging writers. It offers a unique blend of honest advice, narrative craft strategies, and the sustaining encouragement that writing—and building a writing career—takes “layers that last.” Whether you’re grappling with impatience, stuck in the messy middle, or questioning your approach to structure or character, the insights here reinforce the power of self-belief, emotional authenticity, and the commitment to continually refining your craft.