July Bonus Episode

Summary

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
July Bonus Episode | July 27, 2026
Guest: Rachel Hochauser, author of "Lady Tremaine"
Hosts: Bianca Marais, CeCe Lyra, Carly Watters

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Episode Overview

In this special bonus episode, the hosts are joined by debut novelist Rachel Hochauser to discuss her widely acclaimed book Lady Tremaine, an "untelling" of the Cinderella story from the stepmother’s perspective. The conversation covers Rachel’s inspiration and personal backstory, her approach to structure and character, the publishing journey from agent to editor, workshopping and community, tackling tropes, and deep craft insights. This is a must-listen for emerging writers seeking honest, practical guidance—and a powerful testament to perseverance and creative transformation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Elevator Pitch: Reframing a Classic (02:30–04:13)

• Rachel describes her novel as "an untelling of Cinderella, not a retelling," told from the point of view of the 'evil' stepmother.
  • "It's an untelling of Cinderella, not a retelling... from the point of view of the so-called evil stepmother.” — Rachel Hochauser (02:51)
• CeCe references Emilia Hart’s description, calling it a "feminist war cry."

2. Personal Genesis and the Drive to Write (05:07–08:15)

• Rachel shares her hiatus from writing, following the failure to publish her first book—a period marked by family health crises.
• Inspiration struck in a hospital, when she encountered an image of Cinderella’s stepmother and realized the untold motivations behind the character.
  • “She’s just trying to take care of her children, her daughters. And I related to that so much…” — Rachel (06:33)
• Writing Lady Tremaine became “me time” amid personal and family challenges.

3. Layered Structure & Breaking the Rules (08:27–10:33)

• Rachel discusses her approach to the book’s dual timeline—using backstory only until the midpoint, then focusing on the present.
  • “There are no rules in writing. If it works for you, it’s going to work for some readers.” — Rachel (09:30)
• She admits plot and structure were her weakness, and the book was a learning process.

4. Character Development and Subverting Tropes (10:33–12:42)

• Lady Tremaine’s voice was Rachel’s entry point: “Her voice came to me.”
• On Cinderella (Ellen): Rachel intentionally played with passivity and niceness, exaggerating “prescriptive feminine traits.”
  • “Passivity becomes passive aggression, the niceness becomes someone so nice they're annoying... ultimately a symbol of all those feminine traits that are so prescriptive.” — Rachel (15:06)

5. Mastering Craft: Workshopping, Reading, and Critiquing (16:32–19:25)

• Rachel credits voracious reading and critiquing others’ work in workshops as instrumental to her growth.
  • “The value of workshop is not having your own work critiqued, it’s critiquing others’ work… That’s how you hone those skills.” — Rachel (17:15)
• She cautions that feedback can be conflicting, and much can be gained from developing editorial distance.

6. The Agent and Editorial Process (19:25–25:36)

• Rachel’s agent relationship was “a slow burn romance”—her agent rejected her first book (very kindly), then remembered her 12 years later.
  • “It just felt like kismet… seeds of something had been planted.” — Rachel (20:11)
• Submission to publishers was “lightning speed” (representation in March, deal in July).
• Both her agent and editor understood her vision and provided “light” edits.
• The book’s genre resistance made it initially difficult to place.
  • “Publishing likes to fit square pegs into square holes… and I think it can be a little… confusing to have something new that you don’t quite know what to do with.” — Rachel (21:57)

7. Endings, Beginnings, and the Aha Moment (25:58–27:51)

• The mirroring opening and closing of the novel was not planned, but a “reverse image” concept emerged two-thirds through drafting.
  • “The last line of the book, which is my favorite, came to me maybe when I was two thirds of the way through, and I wrote towards it.” — Rachel (26:54)
• CeCe notes: “A story’s ending sells your next work.”

8. Advice to Emerging Writers (28:17–32:05)

• Keep learning and networking from wherever you are—Rachel credits listening to this very podcast as part of her process.
• Start building your network early, through workshops, conferences, and literary communities, but tailor it to your comfort: volunteering, online groups, or local journals.
  • “Networking is being in community with other writers… it doesn’t have to look like awkward small talk at an event.” — Rachel (31:15)
• Offer to beta read, critique others’ work, and give back as you grow.

9. The Falconry Thread (32:05–34:20)

• Falconry became central as a twist on the typical “villain with animal sidekick” trope. The inspiration came from a real falconry workshop during her babymoon.
  • “You never know where [an experience is] going to lead you. It might end up being a major thread in your novel.” — Rachel (34:18)

10. Book Recommendations (34:52–35:57)

• The Villa Coco by Andrew Sean Grier (delightful sentence-level writing)
• Homebound by Porochista Khakpour (edit: transcript says "Porsche Elon" but correct name is Porochista Khakpour), described as “Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow meets Cloud Atlas”—jumps in time, with a gaming element and lots of heart.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On shifting perspective:
  "I wanted to undo, so to speak, and reframe and think through [the Cinderella myth], especially as the mother of two little girls myself." — Rachel (04:13)
• On story structure:
  “I ultimately have come to think or realize that there are no rules in writing. And if it works for you, then it’s going to work for some readers. And that’s the whole point of this: you get to do what you want.” — Rachel (09:30)
• On writing and failure:
  “It’s really gratifying to hear you say that, because it wasn’t... I didn’t just sit down to write my first book and knock it out of the park. I had a whole book that didn’t ultimately gel or work as much as I tried.” — Rachel (17:58)
• On workshops:
  “It’s so easy to see what’s wrong or missing or working or clicking with distance from the work. And I think you hone those skills, essentially editing other people’s work.” — Rachel (17:15)
• On publishing timelines:
  “We went out on submission... it was March that I got the offer of representation. And I signed my book deal in July… of the same year. So you have to talk about the 15 years that preceded it, because otherwise it just… it’s too good to be true.” — Rachel (21:12–21:30)
• On falconry and life experience:
  “To me, that’s just a lesson in, like, life experience. You never know where it’s gonna lead you. It might end up being a major threat of your novel.” — Rachel (34:18)
• On networking reality:
  “Networking means getting involved in more ongoing ways… it’s being in community with other writers.” — Rachel (31:15)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Elevator Pitch & Reframing Cinderella — 02:30–04:13
• Personal Origin Story — 05:07–08:15
• Discussion of Structure & “No Rules” — 08:52–10:33
• Character Motivation & Tropes — 10:33–15:52
• Craft: Reading, Workshopping, Critiquing — 16:32–19:25
• Agent & Editor Matchmaking, Submission Timeline — 19:25–23:25
• On Publishing “Square Pegs” — 21:57
• Editing & Feedback — 24:17–25:58
• Mirrored Opening/Endings — 25:58–27:51
• Advice for Writers & Networking — 28:17–32:05
• Falconry Research/Theme — 32:05–34:20
• Book Recommendations — 34:52–35:57

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Tone & Style

The episode is candid, supportive, and full of encouragement—typical of the podcast’s approachable, honest style. Rachel is especially open about her setbacks and personal journey, creating a space for both inspiration and practical advice. CeCe and Bianca are enthusiastic and affirming, offering the wisdom of literary insiders while championing craft and community.

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Suggested For

• Writers seeking insight into the creative and publishing process
• Readers and fans of fairy tale retellings with a feminist twist
• Anyone looking for practical networking and community-building advice for creative industries

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Final Note:
If you’re feeling stuck or unsure about your path as a writer, this episode is a resounding reminder that “it just takes one yes.” (Bianca, 36:24)

Transcript

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[Bianca Murray]

Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no one Tells you About Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lera of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary.

[Cece Lera]

Welcome everyone to a very special episode of our podcast. We have with us a incredibly special guest. I am so excited to introduce Rachel Hochauser, author of Lady Tremaine. Rachel grew up in Santa Barbara, California. She attended New York University and earned a Master's in Professional Writing from the University of Southern California. Currently she lives in Portland, Oregon with her husband and two daughters and and Lady Tremaine is her first novel which I will say right now sounds unbelievable to me because it is one of my all time favorite novels. I read it this year and at first I was like oh my God this is my favorite book of the year. And then I realized that I loved it so much that now it's not just my favorite book of the year, but it's officially joined the roster of one of my favorite evers. So welcome, Rachel.

[Rachel Hochauser]

What a wonderful welcome.

[Podcast Sponsor/Host]

Thank you.

[Rachel Hochauser]

This is news to me too. So I'm. I'm sitting over here grinning.

[Cece Lera]

Well, it is much deserved because your book is amazing. Your novel is amazing. But we're going to begin by putting you on the spot. You mentioned that you listened to the podcast, so this will probably not be a surprise for you. Rachel, if you were in an elevator, unagented, unpublished, and a publishing professional were to ask you, hey, what's your novel about? How would you pitch it? What would be your elevator pitch?

[Rachel Hochauser]

Well, I would have. Before going through the whole publishing journey, I probably would have pitched it very differently. So I've learned a lot. And it's hard for me to remember how I talked about the book. Now, I'm very used to talking about the book, but if I were to meet someone this afternoon in an elevator, I would probably say it's an untelling of Cinderella, not a retelling. I use that word really specifically from the point of view of the so called evil stuff, stepmother. And typically I can just leave it at that. Or we can kind of pick at some threads and unravel things a bit. But, you know, sometimes I like to talk about that there's a falconry storyline, that it's a love story, but not just about romance. It's, you know, familial love, a mother's love, love between friends and women. The book, I think, is very layered.

[Cece Lera]

It's definitely very layered, I think. Well, first of all, that was an amazing pitch. I'm so curious to know how you used to pitch it. I'm very sad you don't rem. It would be really interesting exercise to compare the two pitches. I think Emilia Hart, author of Wayward, put it best when she said, rachel unpicks this old fairy tale and weaves it into a feminist war cry. Like, it was so beautiful. Like, such a wonderful way to describe your book. And I like that you said untelling instead of retelling.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Yeah. And that was one thing that came later. I got that from one of my many conversations along the way. But I think, you know, the Lady Tremaine is so much more than a villain origin story, or it became more than that. As I was writing, I realized there was so much about the Cinderella fairy tale that I wanted to undo, so to speak, and reframe and think through, especially as the mother of two little girls myself. So the book is not just, you know, Lady Tremaine's story. It's kind of a reexamination of the Cinderella myth itself.

[Cece Lera]

Yeah, I love that you put it like that. And I love that part of the inspiration came from having two daughters. Take us back. Like, how did you decide to write this book? And I know you wouldn't have pitched it in this way, but did you always know it was going to be tied to the Cinderella story and from the evil stepmother's pov? Was that always the intention?

[Rachel Hochauser]

It was very much so. I, I don't. Depends on how far back you want to go. But I had written a whole other book and failed to publish it, failed to get representation and poured years of my life into this project. It was like what I worked on in grad school and for years afterwards. So I had actually quit writing pretty dramatically before going to Lady Trent. I was pouring my creative energy into other projects. And then in 2023, I hadn't sat at my desk, not literally, but I hadn't sat at my writing desk for five or six years or so. And I had an 18 month old daughter and my husband, out of the blue, became really unexpectedly ill and we found out he had a brain abscess. He was rushed into emergency brain surgery and it was a grueling, many months long recovery. So we're spending a lot of time in the hospital system here in Portland, but also, you know, even outside of the hospitals, it was, it was just hard. I was effectively a single parent. For a number of months I was caretaking for him, I was trying to work. And in one of those hours in the hospital, I was scrolling on my phone, trying to distract myself, as you do, and I came across a depiction of Cinderella's evil stepmother. And I recognized her immediately from my own childhood. It was so visceral. But she, I learned she had a name and I'd never heard her name before. Lady Tremaine. And it was, you know, something about that felt very arresting to me. It stopped me in my tracks. And then I was sitting there, you know, in this context of my own sacrifice, and I thought, wait, she's not a villain. You know, motivated by harming someone or even self interest. She's just trying to take care of her children, her daughters. And I related to that so much and I thought, this would be, this is a story. Why hasn't anyone ever told this story before? So it was, and it felt like it was like my creative brain and my personal life and my, you know, desire to write and publish a book from so many years before Synthesized and the project Ended up being, you know, what kind of helped me get through that time period. My husband's doing so much better. You know, we knew as soon as we knew everything was going to be fine. I sort of. That was. Became my me time, was sitting down to write whenever I could. And so that was really the origin of Lady Tremaine. So the success of the book is so personal to me. Every book is personal. I mean, you spend so much time with it, but it's connected to what I had deemed as an earlier failure of my own writing career. It's connected to that time of my life. It's now the story I want to share with all little girls, especially my own two little girls. So it's deeply personal and an extension of me.

[Cece Lera]

I am so sorry you went through that. And it sounds incredibly inspiring to hear that you. You took that pain and you channeled it into your art and into this story. That's very thought provoking, but also very entertaining. Very fun. Like the story's engine is, it's just unputdownable.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I'm very happy I was able to use that time and turn it into something productive. Sets a high bar for any future, future challenges.

[Cece Lera]

That's one way to look at it. Or you could think of it as, hey, I know how to do this, I can do it again. There's more than one ways to look at it. So I wanted to ask you about the structure of the story. There are chapters that are dedicated to the past, and then there are chapters that are dedicated to the present timeline. Was it always in that structure? Did you always have a clear sense of the framework for the book, or did you go through a few drafts before you found that?

[Rachel Hochauser]

I didn't go through a ton of drafts, but thinking through the structure from a plot standpoint, that was my weakest place as a writer, was figuring out plot and narrative structure. And so I really used this book as a way to teach myself some of those more elemental tools. But also what was interesting, I knew I wanted to go into the backstory because that was so much of the narrative justification of why a so called villain becomes the way that they are. But in a lot of books that do that and go back and forth through time, they're doing that all the way until the end. And I only had so much backstory that I kind of wanted to get myself to the midpoint. So it's a little bit less traditional in that the first half of the book, we're going back and forth of time. And then the second half is almost, in some senses, when the narrative begins or the, you know, action, so to speak. And I was a little nervous about that because I felt like I was breaking some rules. But I ultimately have come to think or realize that there are no rules in writing. And if it works for you, then it's going to work for some readers. And that's the whole point of this. You get to do what you want.

[Cece Lera]

Exactly. And there might be patterns that are more commonly used, but as long as your execution can pull it off, as long as your talent is up to the task, then this book wouldn't have been a special if you had done back and forth, back and forth, back and forth till the end, because it would have been like, well, okay, we understood how she got there to the midpoint climax, and then that's when the present storyline, I guess, had to take over. So when you were creating her as a character, you said that you struggled with plot and with structure. I imagine that character came more naturally to you.

[Rachel Hochauser]

That was really all I had to go off of in the beginning, was I had this idea for the book, and my starting place was I just sat down to write, and her voice came to me. The book is written in first person, so it really started with a few lines in her voice. And I expanded and expanded, expanded from there. So I wrote my way into the story from her voice and imagining who she was and her life. And then when I was about a third of the way in, I realized I needed to sit down and really plot out the book. So it was. I started out as a pantser, and I ended up becoming a plotter, you know, sort of a blend between the two methods. And I think that was really nice for me because I was able to figure out the kind of emotional heart of the book and who the characters were. But then, you know, before I got too far into that, went back and layered on some structure on top of that.

[Cece Lera]

Got it. And what about other characters, specifically? I'm really curious to know how you related to Ellen from the very first draft, because to me, at least as a reader, she was an infuriating character in the beginning. And I'm sure that was intentional. We were supposed to feel quite frustrated by her behavior. At the same time, though, because of things that happen in the story, and obviously no spoilers, my opinion of her changed, My outlook of her changed, and obviously, so did Lady Tremaine's. Was that transformation something you were like, I'm gonna set out to do that or did the character take over?

[Rachel Hochauser]

It was a little bit of both. I think my frustration with the Ellen character, as is probably the reader's, is my frustrations with Cinderella, the trope in a lot of ways. But I also have a lot of empathy for her character, so I didn't want her to not have her own character arc or journey. So that part was really intentional. And where her character came from was I was. I didn't want to be so obvious as if we're making the villain good. I think that that's an oversimplification, but for the sake of conversation, if we're making the villain good, I didn't want to go and make Cinderella bad. You know, that would just be too much like flipping. Yeah. Too much of a role reversal and a little too expected. Not very interesting.

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[Bianca Murray]

Hi everyone. It's time to register for the next beta reader matchup, with the matchup emails going out on the 8th of September. As per usual, you'll be submitting 3000 words from your work in progress and I'll be matching you up with writers in similar time zones and or genres. Many of the beta reader groups turn into writing groups with a lot of longevity, which is always marvelous to see. To sign up, go to my website, Biancamarae Ca and go to the Beta reader matchup page. I look forward to matching you me,

[Rachel Hochauser]

But I was thinking about what is Cinderella known for? What does she represent to me? And the first thing was passivity. You know, she doesn't even get herself to the ball. She's brought there by the fairy godmother. And then the second thing was being nice. You know, every version of Cinderella talks about how nice and good this character is. So I thought, what happens when you push those to their logical extreme? You know, the passivity becomes passive aggression, the niceness becomes someone so nice they're annoying. You know, it's almost insincere. I think we all probably know someone who's so nice it does not feel genuine. So she ultimately is a symbol of, you know, all those feminine traits that are so prescriptive. And Cinderella just pushed to the max. You know, the volumes turned up a little too high.

[Cece Lera]

Interesting. Okay, so one of the things I love about your book, as someone who has a podcast, as an agent who very much believes in encouraging the writing community to work on their craft, is that it's a masterclass in, like, all the techniques. Listeners, if you are paying attention and you've taken any course with me, or if you've attended any of our deep dives, literally, there isn't a single technique that you can't learn from this book. It is really impressive, from creating triangles to tension to the writing online level, to absolutely everything. How did you learn this? Like, how did you write with the flair of a novelist. Like, is it innate? Did you study books? Did you study craft? How did you get there?

[Rachel Hochauser]

You're making. My eyebrows are raising inch by inch as you speak.

[Cece Lera]

It's well deserved, Richard.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Truly, it really is amazing. It's a blend of things. The biggest thing that impacts my writing is reading. I, you know, I grew up reading so, so much so I, I always feel like I have an internal metronome for pace and rhythm, both at a sentence level. And that's really what came first for me. But, but now more so, you know, applying that to thinking about character development and plot and where you're starting to lose the reader. And then I think that reading also applies to workshops. So I've done a lot of workshopping. I, you know, was. I studied creative writing as an undergrad. I went to grad school for it. I've, you know, self selected into workshops over the years. And I actually think the value of workshop is not having your own work critiqued, it's critiquing others work. And that's because it's so easy to see what's wrong or missing or working or clicking or not clicking when, when you have some distance from the work. And I think you hone those skills, you know, working essentially editing other people's work, like really using every week of workshop to expand your own capabilities versus just, you know, the two weeks that you get where people are giving you feedback. So I even think those, those two weeks where you're getting feedback can be harmful in a way because you're getting, you know, eight people's different opinions about, about your piece and, and maybe they conflict and, and whatnot. So, you know, it's a combination of a little bit of everything. But I also. It was very hard. One, it's really gratifying to hear you say that, because it wasn't. I didn't just sit down to write my first book and knock it out of the park. I had a whole book that didn't ultimately gel or work as much as I tried.

[Cece Lera]

Well, we're big believers here. We say all the time, like the best creative writing instructor is reading. Like reading and yes, reading for fun, but also reading with a storyteller's eye, dissecting what was happening. That's why re reading can actually be even more valuable sometimes because you're not distracted by you what you don't already know. You go back and you go this sentence over here, this was supposed to make me think that we were going left, but really, this was misdirection. You know, the storyteller had had intentions all along, things like that. And Bianca is the one who's always saying what you just said about you should workshop, but you should do it to critique other people's work. It's not that you can't share your own. That's wonderful. But too many people focus on, well, what value am I getting thinking that notes on their work is the point? But if you learn how to think critically about storytelling, and doing that in a workshop is really the best way you will eventually be able to turn those lenses to your own work, which is, of course, so valuable. But speaking of workshopping and sharing your work, tell us the story of how you matched with your agent and then how you matched with your editor. Yes.

[Rachel Hochauser]

So my agent, it was a slow burn romance. So I. Ooh, okay. Queried her years ago with my first book, and I got the nicest rejection letter from her. It was filled with feedback, and she was willing to take another look down the line. And it was clear she had so deeply engaged with the novel. And so I remember, of course, you never, you know, when you're creating any response from an agent, you. You don't forget. But when I went back around the second time with Lady Tremaine, a full. I don't know the math, but it was probably 12 years later, in between initial querying, a lot of time had passed. My agent, Alyssa Rubin, she had switched agencies. She was in a completely different place, but of course I was gonna query her again. And she answered me really quickly and said, I remember you, you know, send me the book. But I didn't hear back from her right away. You know, agents have, as, you know, well, a million things to read. So when I got an offer of representation from a different agent, I was in the lucky position of being able to go back around to everyone I had queried and ended up with a few offers. But I ultimately went with Alyssa not just because of the chemistry of the conversations we had in that second round and because I felt like she got what I was trying to do when we got along. But it was really because of that first letter so many years before. It was. It just felt like kismet and also, you know, that the seeds of something had been planted. And then we went out on submission shortly. It didn't feel short to me, but now that I understand publishing timelines, I'm realizing it all happened really quickly.

[Cece Lera]

Wait, how long? Tell us how long?

[Rachel Hochauser]

I think it was March that I got the offer of representation. And I signed my book deal in July. I'm trying. So I'm trying to think of the same year. Of the same year, so.

[Cece Lera]

Oh, my God, Rachel, that's lightning speed. Yes.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Yeah. I mean, this is why whenever we talk about Lady Tremaine's path to publication, you have to talk about the, you know, 15 years that preceded it, because otherwise it just. It's too good to be true. So we went out on submission, and it was slow, you know, the first couple of weeks. And then I got my first slew of rejections, which was so hard to get that roundup email.

[Cece Lera]

What were those people thinking? People. People. If you rejected Rachel, what's wrong with you? I say this with love. No, no. On a acceptable.

[Rachel Hochauser]

I. I think that Lady Tremaine is a really difficult book to categorize. I mean, even now, some people are shelving it in fantasy, and some people are putting historical fiction and some people are putting in contemporary. And the truth is, it's none of those things. And because it's. It's set in a historical setting, but it's not historically accurate. It's not. There's no actual fantasy in it, although it is a fairy tale. Retelling and publishing, I'm learning, really likes to fit, you know, square pegs into square holes. They like to repeat. They like. You know, similar to Hollywood, they like formulas for what's gonna work. And I think it can be a little. This is just my observation. It may not be accurate, but maybe a little confusing to have something new that you don't quite know what to do with. So that's my take now. But it was very hard to metabolize at the moment. And then we. Then I got a preempt offer from Sarah Canton at St. Martin's Press, and she was. I mean, she. I could not think of a better champion for this book. She knew exactly what to do with it. Exactly. You know, how to position it in the marketplace. And on top of, you know, all that business, incredible business thinking. She's an incredible editor, so she's just great thought partner as well. And so I feel so lucky to have both and an editor and love working with her.

[Cece Lera]

I love that it feels like both your matches were, like, meant to be because obviously your story with Alyssa, like, as meant to be as it gets. Come on. 12 years later, after such a thoughtful rejection, her remembering you moving agencies like it absolutely was meant to be. And then, you know, I know enough about Sarah's taste because I'm such a fan of her books. I Actually started reading Lady Tremaine, not knowing it was a Sarah Canton book. And then when I got to the acknowledgments, I was like, of course. Like, she just has the most amazing taste. It just feels incredibly meant to be. Because I've spoken to her about your novel, and I think she. She understands it in. In a way that speaks to the story's heart, which I imagine is what you're saying when you talk about the match that you guys had. So was there, like, editorial feedback from either Alyssa or Sarah that. That you loved, but also feedback that you were like, I'm not so sure about this one. Talk to us about how. How those edits went.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Sarah and I. And I should say Alyssa, too, were so in sync about the edits. The edits were so light. To be honest, I'm now, you know, deep into editing my second book, and I'm learning what an actual editing process more typically looks like. And so I think I was really lucky with Lady Tremaine. I think it was pretty tight by the time it got to, you know, circular.

[Cece Lera]

No, that's not luck. That's your hard work.

[Bianca Murray]

You.

[Cece Lera]

You had it polished.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Like.

[Cece Lera]

No, it's not luck.

[Rachel Hochauser]

It's not necessarily as repeatable. I think it helps in doing a retelling. Right. Because you have a narrative framework that exists that you're working with. So there were some minor edit, you know, some titans and tweaks and things. One piece of feedback that I. Not from Sarah or Alyssa, but we were talking about going to the uk, and this did not end up happening with my UK editor, but my UK agent and Alyssa thought maybe you might end up with a request to dial up the romance element for this audience. And what are you gonna wanna do if that does happen? But I didn't actually have that feedback. So that was. But that was the close I got to, you know, getting ready to roll up my sleeves and fight for something.

[Cece Lera]

And when they mentioned the romance element between Lady Tremaine and. I'm not gonna name the character because I don't want spoilers.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Yes, for me, it was really important to have the book end the way that it ends because of the point of the book. So I didn't want to turn it into its own fairy tale yet again. I love the ending. I think it's so satisfying and perfect. And so that was one of the things I really wanted to fight for, if it came down to it.

[Cece Lera]

I so agree. And I think that a story's beginning is incredibly important. Like, please don't get me wrong, but a story's ending sells your next work. Like, when you finish a book and the ending is perfect, you're like, please, can I have your next book immediately? So, on the subject of endings but also beginnings, the first line of your novel reads, I've been warned to be weary of strangers in the woods since I was a little girl. And this book ends perfectly with the last line, which I will not read because I consider that to be a spoiler. But if you have read, you know what I'm talking about, was that always the case? Like, did you have an aha moment for that? For that perfect mirroring between the very beginning and the very ending?

[Rachel Hochauser]

I did have the aha moment, but it wasn't when I started the book. I wrote that opening scene without having any idea of where and how the book was gonna end.

[Cece Lera]

Interesting.

[Rachel Hochauser]

But I really love mirroring and writing. I think it's so satisfying for a reader. And when I was thinking about that, I knew I was sort of pushing towards some reverse image of some kind. And then the last line of the book, which is my favorite line of the book, came to me maybe when I was two thirds of the way through, and I wrote towards it. I was just waiting for the day where I could write it down and then write the end. And I remember the moment that I did. And it was. It was sort of. We actually switch point of view for the last line of the book. So I also had to think because of, okay, yeah, I had to think how I was going to do that, because I knew what it was going to be, but I had to make it make sense in context. And I think I pulled it off. I'm. You know, I. It is a spoiler to say what it is, but I'm always like, well, that's. That's an Easter egg, or, you know, yeah, a carrot that we can dangle. You got to finish the book to get there.

[Cece Lera]

I love that. That's. That's incredibly exciting that you had that aha moment and wrote towards it like that. That's such good motivation, too. Absolutely Love that story. What advice would you have for. You know, most of our listeners are hoping to be exactly in your situation, you know, agented with a fantastic editor, a book that's out, that's getting a lot of buzz. Like, what advice would you have for people listening that want to follow in your footsteps?

[Rachel Hochauser]

I think. I mean, it really depends on where you're at in your writing journey. I think, you know, you go through different phases where you learn more and more about what the process entails and what it takes. I think if you're listening to this podcast, you're already getting all the great advice and learning everything you need to know. That's what I did. I was a listener of this podcast, so I was consuming voraciously information about the industry and how it works. I like to say I still feel like an intern in a new industry in a really great way. Like, I'm learning things constantly. And it's very fun advice that was given to me early in my writing career that I did not take and I think was. Would have made a difference if I had was to attend actual workshops like Bread Loaf and conference, and not, not for the ability to work on your own projects, which I think is great, but for the networking, because that has been really surprising to me. I had a very tiny writing network before publishing and it's growing now and that, that's been wonderful. But I do think there's more to who. You know, I hate saying this because it makes everything sound exclusive. It's. It's like any other industry. You know, networking can make a difference and that counts for being introduced to agents. It counts also for, you know, when you do get a publishing deal, requesting blurbs.

[Cece Lera]

Absolutely.

[Rachel Hochauser]

So it's just, you can start that way sooner than you think. Just start connecting with other writers and, you know, supporting one another. And going back to what I said earlier about workshopping like that, that's one way to be generous and also to get back, you know, offer to beta, read and look at other people's work and you'll get the same in return. And also you'll grow your skills as a, as a writer while you're at it.

[Cece Lera]

Absolutely. That is wonderful advice. I take your point about not loving to say it because it can sound like exclusivity or like a, you know, like a clicky sort of thing. But at the same time, we work in a deeply human industry. And one of my central original motivations when I, when, when I joined the, the podcast and dedicated so much of myself to it was I don't come from the literary world. Like, I had a whole different career in a whole different world before joining publishing. And, and because of the podcast, I am able to ask for blurbs. I am able to reach out to someone to ask, hey, I still remember I once had a client who was debating taking two offers, like, and both offers were great. And I was like, I'm just going to connect you to two authors. And they each are with a different editor, and you just ask them a whole bunch of questions.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Okay.

[Cece Lera]

And we did that and it was amazing. And it's silly things like that, but they're actually not silly at all. Like you. It takes a village in so many ways, and this is a deeply human industry. It's why AI won't replace us. Our.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Our. Our.

[Cece Lera]

Our mantra over here. And yeah, connecting with other humans is. Is a big part of that. And I love that you say that.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Yeah. And I think it's really important to specify to me I didn't quote, unquote network because in my mind that looks like seeing what literary events were going on in town and showing up alone and awkwardly trying to make small talk with someone and then having it go nowhere. And that's not. I mean, that is networking, I suppose. But you don't have to do it that way. I think networking means getting involved in more ongoing ways. Maybe there's a literary journal in town. Maybe you're volunteering for a writing related nonprofit. I think networking is also, you know, paid opportunities, like paying to attend a workshop or join one. It's just being in community with other writers or, you know, writing professionals of various kinds. I'm sensitive to it because I was sensitive to that advice. But there's ways to do it within your comfort zone.

[Cece Lera]

Yes, absolutely. And also within your means. There are free opportunities, there are paid opportunities, like so many things in life. And it is actually quite wonderful, once you do build that village, that you can also give back and bring in newbies and be kind and gracious to them as people have been kind and gracious to you. And that's wonderful. I have to ask you this question. Falconry. How did the whole thing happen? Like, I read your acknowledgments, so I know that you did a little bit of research. Was it always a part of the book? Like, it's why I love this book so much. There's so much protein, like there's a million layers in this book that. That you've like, packed into something super tent.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Falconry was always a part of the book. Not that I sat down and thought, I want to write a book about falconry, but I knew I was thinking through the cliche elements of a villain. You know, animal sidekick comes in. The Disney's animated lady. Tremaine has her cat. And I thought, I want to. A lot of the book is having fun being in conversation with tropes and a reader's expectations. So I knew I wanted her to have an animal counterpart, a Familiar, you know, and. But I wanted it to be something the opposite of a cat in a way, not some, you know, warm and fuzzy lap animal. And I thought knowing the character, as I was getting to know her, she would have an animal with utility. And the falcon just felt like the perfect symbol to represent, you know, who she was and what she was all about and her fierceness and prowess. And I had had a tiny bit of experience with falcons because in the middle of the pandemic, I was staying at a hotel for a babymoon with my husband. By that, I just mean I was pregnant, and it was the only thing we had done in months, and there was nothing going on, and the restaurant was closed. And they said, well, we're having a falconry workshop for a half day if you want to pay us a million dollars. And I was like, I'll pay you $2 million for this strange falconry workshop that I never would have considered under other circumstances. And I was really struck by the birds. And then I didn't think about it again for a long time until I sat down to write the book. So, you know, to me, that's just a lesson in, like, life experience. You never know where it's gonna lead you. It might end up being a major threat of your novel.

[Cece Lera]

That's so true. I love that. I love how surprising. I love how everything comes together. Like all these situations that, you know, we never thought in your past. Like from the 12 years ago with Alyssa to now. The falconry at your baby moon. That's amazing. Well, we will ask you the last question that I ask of all guests. Can you please recommend us a book? It can be a book that you've already read and loved, a book that you still have not read, but that's on your tbr. A book that you're reading, anything. But please do recommend a book so our listeners can just add even more books to their lists.

[Rachel Hochauser]

I love this question. I am reading as much as I possibly can these days. Right now I'm in the middle of the Villa Coco by Andrew Sean Grier, who wrote less, and he does such a marvelous job. I haven't finished it, and I typically don't recommend books until I finish them, but I. I'm listening to this on audio, and I just have this silly grin on my face constantly whenever I'm listening to it. The. The sentence level writing is just delightful and filled with more souls. And then another book I like to recommend is Porsche Elon's. I need to check. I'm pronouncing that correctly, Porsche Elon's Homebound, which is a little bit like tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow meets Cloud Atlas.

[Podcast Sponsor/Host]

Oh, wow.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Real mashup. But it's got an element. It's. It's, you know, just jumping around in time, these huge jumps, and there's a gaming element to it. And the book has so much heart. It's really beautifully done. So those two are the ones I'll go with, but there's about 100 out there. I could talk about that this all

[Cece Lera]

day because you're a writer, and all writers are voracious readers. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us. This was truly a pleasure. Wait, where's your book? So I can cheesily hold it up for our YouTube audience again? If you haven't already, please check out Lady Tremaine, and then you will thank me. So instead of saying thank you to everyone who supports the book, I will say, you're welcome, because I'm just giving you guys just really good advice here to read this book. And thank you, Rachel, for joining.

[Rachel Hochauser]

Yes, thank you for having me.

[Bianca Murray]

And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.