Loading summary
Transcript83 lines
- [00:00]
Lucy Foley
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Bianca Murray
Hi there and welcome to our show, the shit no one tells you about writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency. Hi, everyone. We have a very special guest joining us today who is a number one New York Times and Sunday Times best selling author whose contemporary murder mystery thrillers have sold over 5 million copies worldwide and been published in more than 40 territories. As a lifelong Agatha Christie fan, she has also contributed to Marple, a collection of short stories featuring the legendary detective. After several years living abroad, she recently resettled in the UK with her young family. Inspired by trips to the west country, she began plotting her latest novel, A cliff top hotel with the dark pine past a midsummer heat wave, tensions rising among guests, Dun, dun, dun. And so the midnight feast came to life. She is the author of, amongst others, the Guest List, the Paris Apartment and the Hunting Party. It's my pleasure to welcome Lucy Foley. Lucy, welcome to the show.
- [01:17]
Lucy Foley
Hi. Thanks so much for having me.
- [01:19]
Bianca Murray
Ah, we are so excited to pick your brain and climb in there and live in it for a little while. I know that sounds creepy as hell, but love it.
- [01:26]
Carly Waters
Love the creepy.
- [01:27]
Lucy Foley
Yeah, yeah.
- [01:28]
Bianca Murray
Thriller author, you can handle the creeper vibes. Right? So I want to ask firstly about your change in genre. So the Hunting Party was your crime debut. Why the pivot? Was it just because you were interested in different genres at that point or was it a very tactical choice?
- [01:48]
Lucy Foley
Oh, my goodness. Well, it's easy with hindsight to think, you know, it was this great sort of grand plan to kind of change genre and all of that. I mean, the Hunting Party started a bit like my first historical. The Book of Lost and Found started as a kind of side hustle. I had this idea, it was sort of eating away at me. I just really wanted to give it a go. I was meant to actually be writing a fourth historical at the time, which no one ever talks about because I have. Luckily I have the same publisher and they were very understanding. But I was meant to be writing that and I just, I couldn't stop thinking about this, this murder mystery idea I'd had. I traveled to the location that inspired it, not thinking that I wanted to write this sort of book, but it was, it was this remote spot in the Scottish Highlands. We were renting a cottage there. We were told in the event of very heavy snowfall, you may find you're not able to leave the estate. Where we were, where we were renting this cottage. And literally, as I was reading these instructions, the first Flakes of snow started to fall and I literally got goosebumps at that moment. I thought, oh my goodness, this is the perfect setting for that sort of golden age murder mystery type scene setup that I love reading. You know, I've always loved reading those sort of books. And we'd also thought, kind of rather evilly, we'd sort of thought. I mean, not. It wasn't an evil thought at the time, but the two converged in quite an evil way. We thought this would be a great place to get a group of old friends for New Year's Eve and like all celebrate here and wouldn't that be fun? And so I was like, oh, murder mystery plus group of old friends. That could be like a fun dynamic and sort of the rest is history. But I mean, I was totally writing in secret. I hadn't told anyone. But my. My husband and my literary agent, she sort of of really gave me the green light. She was like, look, if this idea is exciting, you go for it and, you know, we'll see what happens. And, yeah, that was my turn to the dark side.
- [03:40]
Bianca Murray
I love hearing from authors about their sort of side project. That's the one that they were cheating on their main project with and nobody knew about it. And that's generally the thing. Their passion project is the thing that really, really takes off. I haven't read your historical fiction. I've read all of your thrillers and your crime novels. They are so atmospheric. It's just saturated in atmosphere. Was that something you brought to your historicals as well, or was that something you've more focused on now?
- [04:08]
Lucy Foley
I mean, I think so. I mean, I hope so. I've always been hugely inspired by place. You know, that's kind of one of the first sort of building blocks, I guess, for me, in terms of a book really coming together. And so I wanted to set them in really sort of atmospheric places as well as kind of periods in time. So, yeah, the first book, the book Lost and Found, it was set largely in Corsica, which was somewhere. It was the first place I really remember traveling to outside the UK as a child. And it just had. It was. Had such a kind of strong impression on me. Could still sort of remember it so vividly. And so I really wanted to sort of take the reader there, obviously had to go back there to do research and things. That was a real. A real hardship. And same with the second book that was kind of set all along the sort of Italian Riviera, the film world, the 1950s. Definitely like a mystery element creeping in There. There was a. There's this sort of woman's disappearance and it kind of revolves around that. And things get quite dark, actually. So funny enough, that often seems to be the one. If people have read and enjoyed my thrillers, that seems to be the one they pick up first if they go over to the historicals. And then the third historical, the book Lost and Found, was all set in Istanbul, or Constantinople as it was called back then by the Brits. Just after the First World War, when I hadn't realized this, we, the British, the French and the Italians occupied the city for actually longer than the First World War. So there were kind of British soldiers literally stationed in people's homes. So people were told, you need to make room for this British officer to come and live with you. And that. I thought that must be. It must have been a source of so much tension and, you know, this kind of clash of cultures and wanted to explain, explore that. So, I mean, Istanbul is just one of those places. Just saying the name kind of excites me, you know, because it's such an interesting place, really. Kind of the gateway between Europe and Asia. Trade, history, all of it, kind of the layers of history. So much going on there. So, yeah, that was exciting to research.
- [06:10]
Bianca Murray
I love everything you've said because I think for many emerging writers, they mistakenly view setting as backdrop. It's like what's happening is the stage production and the setting is just some painted backdrop and it's there in the background. But setting is so much more important than that, especially when it informs story or becomes the genesis of story. Because, you know, so many stories could only take place in that place at that time with those people.
- [06:37]
Lucy Foley
Totally. And that's so much the case for the thrillers. I mean, certainly with three of the thrillers, it's very much been Nature. Red and Tooth and Claw. Kind of this sort of this wildness that the characters find themselves in and it brings out sort of something wild in them, I suppose, something. And they have to look at themselves too closely. They're sort of without their creature comforts and their kind of great Internet connection, you know, all of that. And it sort of creates this kind of pressure cooker. But also the same in the Paris apartment. It's sort of this kind of claustrophobic. They're all looking at each other a bit too closely. Those events couldn't happen anywhere else. That is absolutely the case with those books.
- [07:17]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. And I love what you say about how the. The setting brings out something in those characters that nowhere else would. If you'd put them in like a more urban environment where they were around like the creature comforts, like you say. So it's really interesting to test your characters and put them in these sort of creepy, weird settings and see what that brings out in them compared to if you'd put them somewhere else. So for our listeners, don't think of setting as just backdrop, really play around with it to see how much it can inform the story, inform the plot and those characters in terms of the arc, etc. Etc.
- [07:52]
Lucy Foley
Totally. I would say I think of it like another character in the book. You know, it's another character who's influencing all the other characters around.
- [08:00]
Bianca Murray
It probably has the most influence out of all the characters.
- [08:03]
Lucy Foley
Totally.
- [08:04]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. I've spoken to quite a few authors who were editors first and you were an editor first. And I'm always so fascinated by how they crossed over from one to the other. Half fraught, many of them found it because you would think if you're an editor who's been editing other people's books, you're going to be like, oh, I'm going to write my own book and I know what the hell I'm doing. And of course this is going to go great. And yet they all speak about doing it in private and in secret and being terrified to show their work to anybody. Was it the same for you?
- [08:33]
Lucy Foley
Oh, I mean, absolutely. In a way, I didn't have too much to lose because I was quite junior at the time in the industry. It wasn't like, you know, when you hear some, like sometimes really senior people, people who've been sitting on a book for kind of maybe a decade and, you know, they've got this like, storied reputation in the industry. I didn't have any of that. I was a very, very baby editor. But I was still, you know, it very much felt like this sort of thing that I've been working on in secret. It was my baby. I was so nervous about putting it out in the world. I also very much didn't want to use any kind of professional connections. So I wanted to go through the proper route, as it were, as it were, and submit it, you know, in the standard way. Like the three chapters covering letter, all of that. It just felt important to me to do that. And to be honest, I didn't really have anything, as I say, any particular position to trade on anyway in the industry. I think what it did give me a sense of, I do think, in a way, I was talking to someone about this the other day. I Think in a way, it was a bit like going on a. On a kind of writing course, because you sort of. You do pick up so much by osmosis, you see, sit in sort of editorial meetings where people are talking about why things are working and why they're not, about the importance of character, about the importance of, you know, kind of staying the course and seeing it through to the end. Because I think so often as an editor, I would get a really exciting first three chapters, but then the rest of the book didn't deliver. It was like those had been polished to within an inch of their life. And then, you know, sort of things tapered off after that. So I kind of knew that was all really important. It was very inspiring, people talking about kind of story and character all day long. I think it made it feel more accessible because you see manuscripts at every stage of the process, and often they need a lot of work when they first come in. So all of that, I think, was a huge help. And it also gave me an understanding of the importance of a really good edit and that editor author relationship. I hear about authors sometimes that don't. They don't get edited.
- [10:39]
Bianca Murray
And sometimes you can see that.
- [10:41]
Carly Waters
Sometimes you can see that some authors.
- [10:44]
Lucy Foley
You know, it's clearly just pure brilliant, straight out of the gate and all power to them. But no, I need. I. I think for me, that's really where the book is made. That's where it's kind of forged in the, like, hellfires of the editing process.
- [10:57]
Bianca Murray
Forged in the hellfires of the editing process. I think that should be the episode title. I absolutely love that. Right, so let's now dive into the book. On the podcast, we have two agents who join us, who are my co hosts, and we critique query letters and opening pages to help authors really polish up ahead of going out to query agents and land their dream agent. And we're generally wary of prologues because most times we see with emerging authors that a prologue is used as a band aid to fix an opening chapter, chapter one, that is not doing the heavy lifting that it's meant to be doing. So it's not often that we're like, this is a perfect prologue. This does everything it needs to. I am going to read for everybody Lucy's prologue as a how to on doing prologues. There's actually almost. It's almost a two sneaky prologue because it starts right you. It was like a double sneaky prologue. Yeah, I love it. So it starts off with the woods, an engine idling on the edge of the woods at night. A message left in a hollow tree, a summoning. And that's it. And then we go to the next page and it almost looks like a bird or something there. It doesn't say prologue. It doesn't say anything. And this is what it begins with. A fox browsing in the dead beech leaves. For the trail of a rabbit stops, still raises its head, is pricked, paw raised before turning and fleeing. The owls halt, their nighttime chorus lifting as silent, pale ghosts from the branches to find another patch of woodland. A small herd of deer scatters more noisily, crashing through the undergrowth in its haste to get away. Something is moving through the trees now, disturbing the normal nighttime harmony. Shadows with form, with substance, rustling through the leaves, treading upon the woodland floor, snapping twig and bracken. Deep in the woods they gather the same clearing they have always used, and their forebears before them since the legends began. A strange flock, black robed beast headed, born of the unknown depths of the wood. An image from a medieval woodcut. A dark folk tale to frighten badly behaved children. In the modern world, a world of busyness, of speed and connection, they make no sense. But here among the trees, hidden from moonlight and starlight, it is as if the modern world is the fairy tale other and strange. A short distance away, the old man sits in his study in the woods, a converted cabin surrounded by ancient trees. The door is ajar to the elements. Now that darkness has fallen, there's a chill to the air. It creeps in at the open door, at rifles through the papers. On the desk in front of him is a single feather. It's black down, ruffled by the breeze. The old man, he doesn't pay it any attention because he is dead.
- [13:57]
Cece Lira
Right.
- [13:58]
Bianca Murray
So let's speak about this kind of prologue and the intentionality of using it and what it is you are doing by setting up the story this way.
- [14:07]
Lucy Foley
Oh, I mean. Oh, gosh, the intentionality. It sounds like a really cheesy thing to say. I think often with these things. For me it's quite instinctive. It was sort of, in a way, it was my way of writing my way into the world of the book. But I also, I wanted to pose a question to my reader right at the outset. I wanted you to be thinking, who are these people? Or what? What is this presence in the woods? I wanted to take you immediately to this place where you felt quite creeped out, you know, kind of nighttime and darkness and this strange sort of figures moving through the words. And I want others to Be asking, why is the old man dead? Has someone killed him? You know, all of that. This is a murder mystery or is it not? You know, what's going on here? So, yeah, I wanted kind of atmosphere, atmosphere, and I wanted to set up some big questions for the plot, I suppose. And, you know, I'm about to then take you kind of into this world where everything feels very sort of, kind of glamorous and luxurious and comfortable and, you know, kind of nature not read in tooth and claw at all. Nature in this sort of very polished, perfected vision. And so I wanted to contrast those two things really dramatically, I think.
- [15:26]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, it's brilliant. And we generally say, stay away from vibes. Don't set the vibe straight away. Give the readers someone who they can connect with in terms of a character, give them stakes, etc. But this is the exact instance when you want to do the opposite of that. Because like you say, you're wanting to contrast this very polished, glamorous world where people think they're in control of everything and they can curate their wardrobes and how they look, but against the natural world and something unnatural like this, they stand no chance. And so we're setting up the vibes absolutely perfectly. And then straight after that, we meet a character, Bella, and we spend time and we get immersed with her straight away. But for our listeners, if you're wanting to see the most perfect vibes prologue, this is it. What were you going to say, Lucy?
- [16:14]
Lucy Foley
No, I was going to say, I think that's such a great rule of thumb generally, though, I think to have a character you connect with immediately. And I'd say that's the great thing about rules. It's really good to have rules. It's also, you know, rules are there to be broken. But I think always as a writer, I'm trying to think about why I'm breaking them. And, you know, and also I was very conscious with this prologue not to be kind of self indulgent. It had to be really short because otherwise you do lose the reader because, you know, they don't know why they're in the woods. They're going to start to feel a bit lost in the woods and, you know, it's going to be too easy for them to put it down. So.
- [16:48]
Bianca Murray
But you could see that with the writing. Like you were so intentional with the actual writing. I mean, for our listeners, again, have a look. Black robed, beast headed. She didn't say they looked like their heads were belonging to beasts or whatever. It's almost poetic writing to really be efficient and to really create that. That vibe. And yes, super short. Because again, you want the reader to be specifically curious. You don't want them to be confused and like, where the hell are we? What's happening? I'm just so confused. This induces curiosity instantly. Now we often say that there needs to be a shift or a surprise or a disruption somewhere in the first chapter that the reader should be expecting one thing, but something else sort of happens and subverts that. And that's something you did brilliantly in your opening chapter, is that something that you consciously set out to do is to take the reader by the hand, lead them somewhere where they think they're going and then have that element of surprise, that disruption. Speak a bit about your process there.
- [17:51]
Lucy Foley
Oh yeah. I mean, absolutely. Every scene really has to sing for its supper, you know, it can't just be, especially in a book like this, in a thriller. So while actually we were talking about, you know, kind of landscape and setting and all of that, I could write you pages and pages and pages of description of setting because I love setting and that's one of my things, but I don't allow myself to do that. So. Yes, sorry, I digress. Each scene in a way is like a little mini. It sort of has a little mini kind of three act structure going on, I suppose. You have your beginning, your middle, your end. You sort of have your like mini crisis or if I don't have that, I want to not have it for a reason. So I always think about that in a scene. I want my kind of twist in the tail within each scene, I suppose.
- [18:35]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. Because that leaves the reader feeling disrupted the whole time. They never feel like they're quite on an even keel. Every time they think I've just found my feet, then something shifts again, which makes them active participants in the story because they have to keep theorizing as opposed to sitting there being spoon fed.
- [18:51]
Lucy Foley
Funny enough, I was actually really excitedly had a zoom call earlier with the screenwriter for the Midnight Feast and we were talking about a scene that he liked, I'm pleased to say, for. For that very reason. He said it was the scene. I don't want to spoil things too much, but it's an Eddie scene which is one of the first scenes in the book. And Eddie is the bartender. Well, no, he's pretending to be the bartender actually in this scene, which is sort of why he gets caught out. He's actually the dishwasher at the hotel and he ends up going to a guest's room. And things get a bit weird quite quickly. And we were talking about how that scene subverts, you know, immediately your expectations of what might and should happen. When you know, this young bartender or dishwasher goes to guests room.
- [19:34]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. And it immediately puts you on his side because you feel so awkward for him. Because you know, there's this class difference. And the minute you have class difference, you have power imbalance. And as soon as you have those disruptions and power imbalances, anything can happen. And that's a great way to immediately get a reader to connect with somebody who's feeling very much out of their depth. And then of course, expectations get subverted as well. So something as well that you do so incredibly and it's necessary in the genre is those cliffhanger chapter endings. Again, is this something that comes to you instinctively or instinctually at this point? Is it something you have to work on? How do you know when a chapter needs to end and a new one needs to begin?
- [20:19]
Lucy Foley
It's a bit of both. Some of it's instinctive. But then a lot of it comes down to that sort of editing process. So often that's before it's gone to my editor. It's my own sort of self editing process. And I'm really inspired by kind of screenwriting and screenwriting sort of approaches to kind of scenes because I think they are often, you know, they have so many pressures on them, they've got to keep the audience attention. In a book you've got so many competing demands on the reader's attention. But you're always, I guess, thinking of the next series, kind of really singing for your supper if it's tv. And I read this great screenwriter, can't remember who it was, this screenwriter who said I tried to get into a scene as quickly as possible. And I tried to get out of it as quickly, quickly as possible. And I want to leave the audience asking for more. And actually there were a few scenes, certainly those scenes at the beginning where I had written. So I talked about that kind of three act structure I had written my. And I'm now going to kind of sort of subvert that slightly. I had sort of written that kind of perfect third act to the scene, as it were. I wrapped it up with a lovely bow for you. And then when I went back in the editing process, I basically got rid of that ending. Yeah. So I kind of needed to know where that scene might go. And then I was like, actually, I'm not going to give you that. I'm going to Keep you. Keep you asking for more as the reader.
- [21:31]
Bianca Murray
It's almost like take them to a certain spot, but then backtrack, backtrack away from where the natural ending would have been to leave it at the cliffhanger.
- [21:41]
Lucy Foley
Keep the cards a little bit better hidden, I think. Yeah, keep them. Keep them wondering what's going on there. I mean, the other thing is I get itchy. This is sort of a really kind of. It's not a particularly sort of sexy way to talk about writing because it seems very sort of, I don't know, kind of numbers based. And I sort of hate that. And again, rules are there to be broken. Donna Tartt probably breaks this one beautifully. But I get a bit itchy when a scene gets longer than about 2,000 words. I just. I feel that's the point at which as a reader you can really start. You feel like you can put the book down and I don't want you to do that. So I'm very conscious of scene length.
- [22:18]
Bianca Murray
I feel like you have a Navy SEAL approach to writing. Get in, get the damn job done and then get the hell out. Right?
- [22:26]
Lucy Foley
Yeah, absolutely right.
- [22:29]
Bianca Murray
So in the story, we begin with the manners opening night. From there we have flash forward chapters to the day after the solstice. So it's flash forwards instead of flashbacks, which was really, really interesting structure. What do you think the benefits of structuring a story this way? Instead of starting in the future and then doing the flashback scenes to what happened before, like what was again, the intentionality to doing that?
- [22:56]
Lucy Foley
I think it means as the reader, you're really on your guard. I want you to feel like a sort of detective in the story. So you are but a detective looking forward. I suppose. So you are immediately then, I hope, kind of scrutinizing everything that's happening going forward to try and work out how you get to this. This place in the future, you're kind of looking at all the characters and their interactions, hopefully much more closely, kind of trying to predict what comes next because our brains like trying to predict things. And so I'm sort of playing up to that, I guess, neuroscience element without thinking too much about it.
- [23:32]
Bianca Murray
It was an excellent structure. And again, for our listeners, it's that intentionality, right? It's saying, this is the structure I'm going for. I'm going to do the narrative in this particular timeline for the following reasons, as opposed to just, I'm going to start at the beginning and go through a linear timeline. Something else you do brilliantly, Lucy, is you use Subtle foreshadowing where things happen that the reader doesn't yet understand in that moment, but it makes them feel uneasy. It's like a tuning fork, and they feel uneasy. They're not sure why, and then they get the payoff later when it makes sense to them. So, again, is it. There's something we can speak about in terms of a technique, again, where you don't give too much away upfront, where you've constantly got to keep the readers curious, tense, waiting for the payoff.
- [24:21]
Lucy Foley
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, that's something that. Sometimes it comes out in the first writing of the scene, sometimes that comes out in the editing. I think, you know what, this scene, it needs to have something else. You know, it needs to have a different, more sinister note going on. Otherwise it's just getting to where we're going and it's not singing for its supper hard enough and it's going to hit the cutting room floor. So sometimes I will go back in and kind of retroactively insert that, that kind of element. Sometimes it's there from the beginning. Sometimes if I can't find a way of doing it, I get rid of that, you know, I get rid of it. It's not working hard enough. That is my test. Is this scene working hard enough? I literally write that, you know, in my notes to myself. How can the scene work harder? Or what is the purpose of this scene beyond simply telling the next chunk of the story? Like, how else can it be? You know, how it's kind of 4D chessing. How can it be doing all these other things as well that I wanted to do?
- [25:17]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. And speaking, you know, about writing for television, like, we think of something like the White Lotus. I mean, they will take something innocuous, like a wave breaking or a branch blowing in the wind, and then they've got the music and they've got some weird angle of coming at it. So that something that should be lovely, like just lying on a beach, suddenly feels tense and weird and you, like something bad's about to happen and that's what you're doing, but you're doing it with words as opposed to, you know, cinematography.
- [25:45]
Lucy Foley
Yeah, it's so annoying. I mean, it's so. So unfair, really, with the screen. They've got so much more in a way they can. Well, I mean, it's a different kind of work. I was going to say they don't. You know, I'm often thinking, I can see because I write, I think, in a very cinematic way. So it's like I can see it on the screen. How do I translate this onto the page for me, how do I. For the reader, how do I kind of get that here without it feeling overly kind of verbose or, you know. Yeah, overworked.
- [26:13]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, that's always the question. Okay, one last question, because our time is up. Can we discuss how much can be conveyed to the reader by writing an unreliable narrator in the first person who thinks they support supremely self aware, but actually they aren't at all. And how much you can signal to the reader in the process so that the reader can see it for themselves and reach their own conclusions in terms of the showing not telling.
- [26:40]
Lucy Foley
Oh, my goodness. Great question. I mean, it's the reason I love the kind of first person point of view, I think, you know, in a way, these characters are like kind of witnesses on the stand, but it's sort of more. It's more intimate than that. They're sort of. They're kind of confiding in you, they're sort of whispering in your ear. But at the same time, there's an element of they're trying to present the best version of themselves at times, or they're trying to explain their actions to you. And you as the reader, you're kind of judge and jury, I suppose, hopefully your executioner. But, you know, you're sort of weighing things in the balance. And I love that slippage between the way in which a character like Francesca thinks that they're being perceived, they think that they're coming across, and what we actually see of them as the reader, you know, that vast chasm between who they think they are or that they're trying to be and who they actually are. There was a great opportunity in this book in particular for kind of really pushing the satire with that element of it. I had a lot of kind of evil fun with that. But again, it's a sort of. I'm just fascinated by the psychology of all of that, you know, how people present themselves versus who they really are. But I'm also fascinated just by perspective on any given event. So, you know, if you ask kind of 10 witnesses, they see something happen in the street, you ask 10 witnesses what they experienced, they will all give you a kind of entirely different, entirely subjective version of events filtered through their own kind of frame of reference, like who they are, literally where they were standing, their kind of memory, sort of everything else that they bring to that factual thing that happened. And so in a way, I'm kind of showing you all these different sort of, you know, Versions of something different kind of visions of it, I suppose. So they're not necessarily aware that they're lying to you. There are different versions of unreliability. Right. There are the characters that are aware that they're lying and there are the characters that are maybe telling their version of the truth, I suppose.
- [28:42]
Bianca Murray
And it creates a kind of tension because the reader almost sits and feels like they're in conversation with the author because you reading what the character says, but you like calling bullshit. You're like bullshit. And you know that the writer wants you to call bullshit and you feel in on it. So it creates this kind of tension where you feel like you and the writer are really in something together and you know something about this character that they don't know. And even though the character knows stuff you don't know, it's fine because you know things they don't know as well. Which is awesome.
- [29:11]
Lucy Foley
Absolutely, absolutely. And you just always want to make sure that the reader feels. I think you want as a reader to feel clever. You don't want to feel kind of lost or confused. You want to feel clever, but you don't want to feel too clever because if you feel like you know too much more than the character, it actually gets pretty boring pretty quickly, I think.
- [29:31]
Bianca Murray
So it's maintaining that tension throughout. It's a tightrope walk.
- [29:35]
Carly Waters
Right.
- [29:36]
Bianca Murray
So we at the end of our time, Lucy, I don't know how that happened for our listeners. We're linking to the Midnight feast on our bookshop.org affiliate page. If you buy the book there, you support an independent bookstore and the podcast at the same time. Lucy, thank you so much for this incredible conversation.
- [29:51]
Lucy Foley
Really enjoyed it. Thanks so much for having me.
- [29:55]
Carly Waters
Hello everyone. Welcome to a very, very special episode of the Shit no One Tells you About Writing Podcast. If you are joining us just via audio, you still don't know who's here, but if you're joining us on YouTube, you already know. I will read her bio now. Dr. Courtney Tracy, also known as the Truth Doctor, is a USC trained psychotherapist recognized as one of the most authentic perspective shifting voices on mental health and the human condition and one of the first therapists to publicly disclose her own mental health disorders. A multi hyphenate healthcare entrepreneur and award winning content creator, Tracy has founded five mental health companies and her work has garnered more than 100 million viewers. She lives in Orange County, California. Dr. Courtney Tracy is the author of youf Unconscious Is Showing and and this Is Me Being Super Selfish here. I am very Proud to say, my client. So welcome, Courtney.
- [30:59]
Cece Lira
Thank you so much, cece. It's truly an honor to be on this podcast talking to you and reaching your audience.
- [31:06]
Carly Waters
We're so lucky to have you here. You know what it's like to have a really big audience. Our audience is. Is tiny. Tiny compared to the millions and millions of people who follow you, who want your advice, who want to be, you know, a part of the Courtney world. Let's talk about that in the context of a book. When did you first think I want to write a book? Was it before you decided to join social media and reach people? Was it after? When did that happen? When did that first thought ever occur to you?
- [31:40]
Cece Lira
Great question. And although I've been asked that question a few times, a new memory has surfaced in my brain. And what I am remembering is that when I was really little, one memory that anyone would know if they read my book was that throughout one of my summers as a child, I read War and Peace, which is a thousand page book about wartime Russia. And I really dove myself into it, into the characters, into the stories, into the fact that there was truth behind all of these human emotions and decisions that I was reading. And at the time, I certainly did not know that that was what was going through my mind. But now, upon reflection, I'm remembering that I really dove into, like, goosebump books when I was little, and I, like, escaped into this world where I could. It was those kind of goosebump books where you get to decide what to do at the end of the chapter, and then you skip to a totally different chapter. Those were always really interesting to me. And when I look back on my childhood, I used to imagine that I just sat in front of the TV eating, like, multiple bowls of cereal every day. But now I realize that I did, in fact, immerse myself in books to some degree, and that that was the only other thing that I can remember doing as a child. And one that pops up in particular is Edgar Allan Poe's the Headless Horseman. I don't think that's the name of it, but that's the premise of the book, of this man's life. And I'm remembering really vividly finding comfort in these stories that were bound in a book. And then I became a teenager and all of that went away. And when I started my platforms, you know, becoming a prominent therapist online, it's almost expected that at some point you'll write a book. But as my platforms were developing, I didn't think about it at all. I didn't even remember that I had had an attachment to books even 50% of the way I do now, just having this conversation with you. And so I saw people over the first, you know, maybe year, year and a half getting book deals, coming out with books, and it still never crossed my mind until my platform got big enough to start getting emails from publishers asking me if I was interested in writing a book. And what people don't really understand is that there's a lot of cold emails coming from publishers to people that they think can write books. And sometimes it's, you have a big platform, do you want to write a book? And other times it's, we are looking for an author for a book about this. And so at first there were these emails coming in to me when my platform had just reached a million and it was, do you want to write a book about? And I've actually seen these books come out now, and it's interesting to think I could be the author of them. Like high functioning depression. A book like that just came out. I turned down writing that book. There were a few others that came in that did end up coming out that I didn't write. And there was one email that I got that was more open, and it was an email from a publisher. And I'll pause after I explain the email. And it was an open opportunity to write a book of my choice. And that was the first spark where I thought, maybe I should do this.
- [34:46]
Carly Waters
I love that so much. And our listeners will probably go, wait, what publishers are reaching out to you? Because I know that that is super surprising to them. But yes, absolutely. When you are an expert in a field, that happens, both commissioning editors, and that's what you're describing with the people who are like, we want a book about, you know, very prescriptive. And also just, you know, editors who are like, I love you, I love your content, I want to hear from you. So you didn't need a literary agent, right? Like, you already had publisher interest. What made you want to work with an agent? I remember you telling me that your first reaction was, I don't need an agent. Which is very fair and very reasonable.
- [35:26]
Cece Lira
Yeah, it's so interesting that that was my perspective at the time. And I feel like my perspective on that was because I had done so much in my life on my own and I wasn't really aware of how this all worked. And so I wrote a proposal on my own. It took me a while, and when I gave it to that publisher, they were like, this is okay, but it seems like you haven't really written a book proposal before and you aren't quite sure what it is that we're looking for. You have a great idea here, but it needs to be in the context of, like, if we're going to send this out or if we're going to accept this. It's just not quite where it needs to be. And interestingly enough, I wasn't upset about that. You know, I'm not the kind of person that feels like I think I know what I'm doing and then I'm told that I'm not. And there's a defense there. Like, I wanted. I really wanted the opportunity. And it didn't seem like a negative. It seemed like, oh, there's another door that could possibly open for me without much effort. And that's probably going to sound very upsetting to some of the listeners. And the effort did certainly come after that. But yeah. Oh, yeah, the lack of really needing to pitch myself to an editor was a gift and something I will always be grateful for. And the best thing about the whole thing, or the best thing about the whole opportunity was that that publisher introduced me to you and I did not have to query you, and I did not have to have a good enough proposal for you to take me seriously. I met you and you met me by way of personal invitation. And I guess I'll end with saying I certainly needed an agent.
- [37:10]
Carly Waters
That's. I mean, that's wonderful to hear because I consider our. Our relationship the way it started, as what I call an energy match. Like, I matched with your energy. I believe you matched with mine. I, of course, researched your content thoroughly before we had that call. Like, I listened to your podcast. I read everything you had written on social media. I did my homework is what I'm saying. But. But the energy that was coming from you and your ideas, like just the genius idea. We often say on the podcast, an idea is not enough. And ideas are the easy part. Not saying they're easy, but compared to actually writing, they're the easy part. And that is fair. I'm not going back on that. But I will say this. When you are already an expert on a subject, when people are already reaching out to you, not just publishers, people reaching out to you for, you know, like to write an article, to give an interview on tv, stuff like that, when you're already a sought after expert. Expert, oh boy. What I'm going to say is going to sound mean to people. I really don't want it to, but it's the truth. A lot of people like this don't have original ideas. They're actually just synthesizing what others say. And there's nothing wrong with that. Truly. No shade. There's a space for that, too. That's so awesome. But you had original ideas. You were saying things no one else was saying in the way that no one else was saying, and with a lot of clarity. And so for me, it was this energy match. It was very much like, we need that book. I need that book. Selfishly, as a reader, I was gonna buy and use your book regardless of whether you chose to go with me or not. So I think that, you know, for me to hear that is really. Is really awesome because it just went. It just went both ways. I needed you to need me and I needed you to work with me because I was going to be so sad if I lost this book. The heartbreak would have been. Would have been real. So then let's talk about. So we began working together in August 2021. We went out on submission October 2022. Did you expect it would take this amount of time? Like, how was the expectation versus reality for you?
- [39:07]
Cece Lira
I certainly didn't think that it was going to take as much time, but through the working of the proposal, I learned honestly, probably like 20% what it was going to take to write the kind of book that needed to be written. And what that means is that not that I needed 100% in that experience, but that I was on the path towards really learning what it meant to write a book, even through the process of the proposal. For me, the proposal was maybe the most difficult part. And the reason for that was I wanted to say a lot more than I needed to say. And you speak of my clarity that comes through my writing and through my speaking. And it was almost like this anxiety of I just really want the reader to know everything that there is to know about their body, brain and mind, which is what my book is about. And I really had to learn that that is not what books are about. It is not about giving them everything. It is about having a clear message and giving them enough to walk away with that message as fully understood as possible. Not 20 messages, because it's all sort of within the same topic and I want them to have it all at once. So it was really breaking down the true point of the book. And of course, that's what a proposal is, but I didn't even know that at the time, which again, might be quite shocking.
- [40:34]
Carly Waters
I think everyone has a learning curve and Your learning curve happened when the opportunity was already there, which in some ways makes it a lot harder and in some ways makes it easier. Right. Like it's. It's definitely a unique situation. But I do think that the expectation of like, it's so interesting to me to hear you say that you struggled with the proposal, because I remember it took a long time, but not because you, not because you couldn't write it. We just. I remember that at one point you sat down. Maybe I'm remembering wrong. Please, please correct me. And you wrote it so fast. Like we had to work through the, the cognitive labor of it all. But when you actually sat down to write it, it was the fastest thing. Like so fast. It's almost like it poured out of you. Am I remembering that right?
- [41:22]
Cece Lira
Yeah, I guess. I guess it was like the chapter, like it was the chapter, the sample chapter. Because the actual annotated table of contents was fairly simple once I had the idea in my head. But I remember writing and rewriting and rewriting the chapter and I actually currently working on my next proposal. And I went and looked, looked back at the original proposal, not the one that went out, the original proposal. And honestly I was like, oh my.
- [41:53]
Carly Waters
God, I am so glad that that.
- [41:56]
Cece Lira
Was not actually published one because it was like very personal information that I think I was like also processing while writing, which I just, I don't recommend for me personally. That was very overwhelming for me. And also nothing in the sample chapter ended up in the book.
- [42:15]
Carly Waters
Yeah, I definitely remember that. And I also took a look, I also took a peek, like, oh my gosh, the evolution, right? This is why we always say it takes time. Even when you already have publishers knocking at your door, even when you already have that leg up. It takes time. You have to give it time. You can't skip steps. So once you actually had a book deal, it was time to actually write your book. And listeners, maybe you don't know this, maybe you do. Most nonfiction books that you are holding in your hand right now, the ones you love, not talking about memoirs necessarily, memoirs are a little bit different. But most nonfiction books are not written by the author. Authors use ghostwriters. It is very common practice in this industry. The name on the COVID is the author's name, but it's not the writer's name. And did you ever consider working with a ghostwriter? What actually ended up happening there? Can you tell us about that?
- [43:08]
Cece Lira
What an experience. So I had a book deal after a seven way auction and I was told to use ghostwriter after And I thought, okay, I have a lot going on, maybe this is a good idea. So I met with various ghostwriters, all of them who have written wonderful books, New York Times bestsellers, a lot of people who understood the premise of my book and the energy that I wanted to bring. I ended up choosing a ghostwriter and began working with them. So I started working with CC in around the fall of 2021. I started working with this ghostwriter in the beginning of 2023, quite a while later and the experience was not enjoyable. I really did not like having a one hour phone call with someone, them asking me a bunch of questions about my life. Which sounds like, like how could I not like that if I'm a therapist? But I did not like spilling my life to someone for an hour and then having them mix it with like bullet points of research that I've given them and giving a very basic sounds like every other book paragraphs back. And I understand that that's the field and that's the industry and those books do well. Obviously they get New York Times bestseller awards and people love them and then people learn. But I, through the process of having a ghostwriter, realized that no one else could tell my story. No one else could really connect to my readers the way that I wanted to connect to my readers. If this was my only opportunity, I wasn't going to allow it to pass me the ability to use my own words to change people's lives. And that's what I was doing on my whole platform. And so even though I had invested five figures significantly non refundable to this person, I said, you know, I really appreciate the opportunity and all the effort that you've put into it. Getting to know me, getting to know my book. And it is me who needs to write this book. And so you may keep what has been given to you, I may keep a sentence or two and I'm going to start all over and do this myself.
- [45:28]
Carly Waters
I remember that phase so well. And as Courtney said, this person was doing her job. They weren't doing a bad job. They were doing the job that everyone else hires them to do. What I think was not working there from my own outsider perspective is that Courtney isn't like other authors, right? Like Courtney, that's how I see you. Like your message is different, your perspective is different. I think that you needed your own brain to do it. Essentially it just wasn't gelling well. And you know, contractually speaking, you could have kept, kept everything she wrote because you paid for that. And that was Fair. That would have been fair, but you chose not to keep that. Which, to me, like, as your agent, I was like, like, so impressed. So impressed. So surprised you would start over. And then you actually wrote it all yourself in a speed that. So. So impressive. I understand that you had worked through the concepts in your head before, so a lot of it was, you know, pouring it out, but it was still quite fast. Looking back to the book you've wrote, you know, the words on the page that now are now, you know, beautifully bound. Everyone who's watching us, this is the COVID It's gorgeous. And these words. How are these words different from what you thought they were going to be in the beginning of the process? And how are they the same? Is that even a question that can be asked in that way?
- [46:41]
Cece Lira
Well, writing it super fast, Writing it as fast as I did, I think it's important to talk about why I thought I was capable of doing. Doing that. So I was on a panel. I was a speaker at VidCon, which is like a video conference for really high profile creators and their fans. And there was a keynote by Mark Manson, the writer of the Subtle Art, not giving a. And it was only 15 minutes, I think maybe 20 minutes. And he had just written Will Smith's memoir, and he was talking about how he had had three books, that he had wrote them all, that his first book said the word fuck a whole bunch, and that that was what his blog was already doing. And so he had a major audience, and he just had this way about him. Like, I just did the thing, and I did it the way I wanted to do it, and it worked, and I stayed true to myself, and I am happier than I've ever been in my life. And I remember walking out of that speech and telling Max, I'm going to call cece right now, and I'm going to tell her that I am canceling the ghostwriter and I am writing this myself. And it was late June, and I had a deadline of just a few months later. And I remember you said, okay, okay. And I said, me and Max are going to sit down. We're going to write it in just a couple months, and we will have it by the deadline. And we had it by the deadline, and there were several edits that were needed after that. But when I made that decision to let go of the ghostwriter, I made the decision to really sit down and think about what I wanted my reader to have. And the book is similar to the proposal that was accepted. That was accepted, auctioned, and Chosen, but it was also different. And what was different about it was through the course of writing, through the course of working with the ghostwriter, being asked those questions about my life and my parents and my own mental health. I was already in a period of my life where I was really struggling with those concepts. Things were happening in my family, they were happening in my body. I was pregnant at the time. I was finding out things about myself. And I started crying on the calls with the ghost writer, like, bawling my eyes out, being like, I can't even answer these questions right now. I was really falling into a deep depression. And the book was about control and the unconscious. And I really was realizing that the main reason that so many people reached out to me was because I told my truth. And I was kind of in a moment where I was grappling with what it was like I was forming a new truth. Like, there was just all this stuff happening inside of me. And I thought, I don't think I can do the personal right now. I remember through the process, process of writing, you said, I want more of you. I want more of you. And I really couldn't give it to the reader at that time. It wasn't cooked. There was no way for me to be able to do it because I was literally actively simmering, and I was not ready. And so I realized, what am I living right now that is a truth that I can share? And it changed the entire second half of the book. Part one became what the whole book was mainly supposed to be about, which was the education, education for my reader, of how they function unconsciously. And part two became an active way for me to combine things that have worked for me in the past in my recovery for mental health and substances, and what is currently working for me now, 10 years later as an active clinician, and the therapeutic skills that I'm giving myself to get through this really hard process of writing a book that can be seen by millions. And so part two really drastically changed once I made the decision to write it myself. And that was not expected, but I'm still very proud of it.
- [50:22]
Bianca Murray
You should be.
- [50:23]
Carly Waters
You should be incredibly proud. It is so hard for someone to think that it's an issue of time. And that's true. Like, usually when you have the kind of platform that you have and this is your situation, you have a lot going on. You know, you don't have the whole day to write every day. But it's not just that. It's the ability to translate really complex thoughts into a narrative into a narrative that is going to keep people's attention and add value to people's lives. It's not purely explanation because it's not purely academic writing. It's storytelling. And being a storyteller is a different beast. Right? Like, it's just different. And so you should be incredibly, incredibly proud. I wonder, in that vein, can you please talk about the chapter that was the hardest to write for you and tell us a little bit about that?
- [51:10]
Cece Lira
Yeah, so the chapter that was the hardest for me to write was chapter five. It's right in the middle of the book. It is the middle of the book. Four before, four after. And it was the story that really made me become the truth. Dr. And it's a very traumatizing story. It doesn't take up too many pages, but just enough to give people an idea of what that moment was like for me. And it was the hardest to write because I had to relive it. And. And the most difficult part about reliving that is that I know that I was the root cause. Not the cause at the moment, but I was the root cause of the pain that I was seeing my husband going through that was affecting me and him and our child. And so it was really hard to relive that and admit that on paper, with words, for anyone to have their own opinion about. And at the same time, the first step of the 12 steps of consciousness is to admit it. And so I had to do what I was asking my reader to do, and I had to admit a lot of things about my past and myself. And it also became the best chapter to write because I could admit that knowing I was no longer like that, I could admit that knowing that from that day and prior to that day, I had never. I hadn't done anything that was similar to the teenager, young adult, adult Courtney, that caused my husband so much trauma. And so it was a beautiful chapter to write because I could not have written it if I had not made it through it and I had not become different. And it was the hardest because it's always hard to reflect on pain that you have caused others or yourself. And moreover, it is hard to put that in a book that could reach a bestsellers list, could reach millions of people in a different way than my platform had before, because to me, at this point, books are far more intimate than online.
- [53:01]
Carly Waters
Yeah, I. That is a. Wow. I. I'm gonna have to process that sentence that books are more intimate. You're right. I think it's the closest thing you get to seeing Someone's soul because of the space and the time that you dedicate to a book. A book requires all of your cognitive brainpower to read, right? Like you can't read and do something else at the same time. I know it's different for audiobooks, but even that, it has to be something wrote, like something that you're not thinking about. And so it's definitely intense. I'm curious, were there any books that you read that you were like, I read this book and I wanted my writing style to be similar or I wanted my writing style to be different. Was there any inspiration, not necessarily to emulate, but to draw from?
- [53:42]
Cece Lira
Definitely Mark's books. And I think if you look at my writing, you can see that in there little. I mean, he was a big inspiration for this book at least. Obviously, seeing him in person right there made, you know, a huge impact. I don't really know how to say this, but I guess I already said it by firing the ghostwriter who writes New York Times best selling books. But most of the books that I read in my field, nothing to the authors, or should I say the writers who are writing them, but I just. They don't hold my attention. They lack for me as a reader, personality. And maybe I'm a writer with a personality disorder, so I'm expecting personality in every book that I read. But there's just something about breaking through the typical and really, really writing. Like, you're sitting in front of me having a conversation over coffee, over a beer in the middle of the night, when you are actively crying about the thing that you're going through. Like, I want to feel the emotion, I want to feel the person. I want it to feel real. I don't want it to feel like a textbook, even if it is a prescriptive nonfiction. And so for me, reading the books and not being able to find the voice that I could sort of align with, and then getting a ghostwriter and not feeling like the voice that I'm aligning with is showing. There were several moments where I'm like, I think I'm gonna have to do this myself. And what I really appreciated about books that I did read, like Mark's and like some other therapists who are relatively open to a degree about their own experience, like, maybe you should talk to someone. That's a good book. And that was super helpful to learn from a professional standpoint what other people in my field were willing to say when it came to their work with clients. So I was able to gain a lot in that way. From being a professional or an expert to write a book. But when it came to the craft, I didn't quite see it anywhere else.
- [55:44]
Carly Waters
Yeah, because you wanted your own voice. I think that's. That's what sets this apart. It is very much your voice when I read your book, and it's not because we've worked together. It's you talking, because I know you like. It's very much you. There's so much you in it, so much personality. I think that it. It makes a lot of sense to me that you had to do this yourself. I never had any doubt that you could. I was just so impressed that you were willing to, because I know you're a busy person. I know that you have a lot going on. And I think that also what makes your book so special is that, you know, to anyone listening, your unconscious is showing. Take control of your life with the twelve steps of consciousness is like, yes, Courtney is right. It is prescriptive nonfiction. It sits on shelves with other prescriptive nonfiction books.
- [56:26]
Lucy Foley
Books.
- [56:26]
Carly Waters
But there is. And you know, she's here so she can tell me if I'm wrong. There is a memoir element to it, just because of the intimate nature of your own stories. Like, you are sharing so much about your own life in a way that's so open, so raw, so honest. So if you write memoirs, this is also a great book to read, to learn how to leverage your own story in a way that is honest and is faithful to the truth, but is packaged in a storytelling way. Before this book existed, Courtney sent me a chapter, and it was a story of this woman in this draft. And by the end, I found out that the woman was someone. I'm not going to say who, because I don't want to ruin anything, but I found out something about this woman and the way she made me go on that journey, Assuming that she was talking about one person and then being like, this is a reveal. It didn't feel manipulative. It didn't feel forced. It didn't. It felt like my good friend sitting in front of me telling me a story. And that. That is being a storyteller. That's not being a therapist. I know you are also a therapist, but the fact that you know how to do this doesn't come from your therapist mind, doesn't come from your academic background, doesn't come from your various degrees. That comes from you being a storyteller. So if you read memoirs, I also highly, highly encourage you to read Courtney's book, to study the techniques it Is so, so useful. And again, it was impressive that you could do it because you're a busy, busy human. And speaking of which, you are super successful in many ways, including being an entrepreneur. Anyone watching you can see she's wearing her work gear right now. You're also an influencer to millions of people. I often say that what brings success to people in other industries doesn't necessarily translate to publishing. Publishing is just like its own beast. Writing a book is its own beast. Do you find that to be true, or am I, like, totally out to lunch?
- [58:14]
Cece Lira
Yeah, I feel like that's true. I mean, it definitely. Like, there's a. A bone in me that I didn't know I had. Like, there is a part of me that has been activated that, like, has not been activated in other ways. And if I think, like, even when I was in school getting my doctorate, I would have to write case vignettes, which is basically what people are doing that are writing therapeutic books using composites of their clients to tell the stories that are good enough to be put in and help the reader understand what they're trying to teach. And it's like, you cannot do that in a book. Like, it is not a case vignette. You must understand that you're taking the reader on a journey and, like, really understanding what that is and having those moments of curiosity and of surprise and of really dropping in internally and making sure that the external environment exists as well, so that it's not in a vacuum. And I think a lot of those things have come from my awareness of psychology as well as my autism, honestly, being aware of. Of my environment, what's going on internally, and really just. I've had this spiderweb map my whole life of what it really means to be in the story of life. And so I feel like it's easier for me to know if there's an element missing, because I'll read it myself and the question will immediately arise, like, wait, there's a hole there and I need to fill it. Or that took a little bit too long to get to that point. Like, it's just naturally in me. But I wouldn't have known that until I started writing stories and in the way that they needed to be written for a book like this.
- [59:47]
Carly Waters
That's really interesting. I love hearing that. I like the spider web image.
- [59:52]
Cece Lira
It's hard to escape, but I like it.
- [59:55]
Carly Waters
But it's all intricately connected, too, right? That's really interesting. As a final question, what message would you have to our listeners? Our listeners are Aspiring authors, for the most part, they want to be in a situation where they have a seven way auction, like you did. Regardless of genre, what message would you impart to storytellers?
- [60:17]
Cece Lira
I have two. One is be a little bit more vulnerable than you think you can be. Go a little bit more. Say a little bit more. Because that is what's going to get you in the door. Saying things that other people won't. Saying the thing you don't want to say. Admitting the thing that you want to admit. Writing the story that you know well of your life. Even if you think it's easier to write a different story, like, write the one you know. Right. Write the truth and don't hold back. The second one is your story matters. Even if you don't become a New York Times bestseller, and even if your book falls flat on its own face, because that is what happened with my book. And. And if you look at the statistics of my book and the sales of my book and you try to find my book online, you really will not find it many places. And I feel like there were definitely moments where I was breaking down on the phone with Cece through this entire publishing experience. And the reality is that getting a book deal, signing with a major publisher, and getting your book in the stores that you want them in will never be what makes you feel like a good writer. What is going to make you feel like a good writer is writing from your heart and telling the story that you know needs to be told by you in this life, right now, at this time, and nothing else matters. So maybe I would say something a little differently if my journey turned out differently, but I'm a therapist and I'm a realist, and I'm a human. And really the truth is that. That you matter no matter what. So keep that in mind. And if you get the gold, that's beautiful. But the effort to tell your story and to not let that effort go is the thing you will look back on and be most proud of.
- [62:23]
Carly Waters
100%. Very well said. On the first thing she said. I do want to add to listeners, this is true even if you write fiction, because you're not writing your life story. You're creating a character. But the emotional truth is the same. Fiction is the lie that tells the truth. You're creating fiction. But I promise, if the emotional truth is not honest in your book, it's gonna fall flat and someone's gonna tell you, I'm not connecting. And you're gonna be like, why aren't they connecting? And. And probably that might be the reason. So thank you so much, Courtney, for joining us. Thank you. It was an honor. Thank you so much.
- [62:56]
Cece Lira
Thank you.
- [62:57]
Bianca Murray
And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.