← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Layers of Psychological Processing
00:46:04
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
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- [00:00]
Kali
The last Beta reader matchup of the summer has been extended thanks to gremlins in the system. Instead of the matchup happening on 2nd June, it will now be extended to 9th June with matchup emails going out that day. If you haven't registered yet and would like to take advantage of this extension, you have until midnight Eastern Time on the 8th of June, please go to theshitaboutwriting.com look for the beta Reader Match up tab, click and you can find all the details and register there.
- [00:32]
Carly Waters
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- [01:59]
Kali
Hi there and welcome to our show the shit no one tells you about writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Books with hooks, our 200th segment actually. So we have done 225 of these. Kali and Cece, how are you guys feeling about that?
- [02:28]
Carly Waters
Well last time I told you guys, like, are we even going to be needed anymore? Like, AI is coming for all of us. And now we're like, okay, 225. Clearly you guys have stuck around to enjoy us for this many years and we appreciate it.
- [02:42]
Kali
Cece, how are you feeling stamina wise?
- [02:45]
Cece Lira
I mean, stamina wise? I. I have all the energy in the world. That's never been an issue. I'm just like, how. How are people still listening to us after 225? Thank you. Thank you to everyone. That's so lovely.
- [02:56]
Kali
And it's so lovely to hear from brand new listeners who found us and then have gone all the way back and listened to everything else. So they've. Even our new listeners have gone all the way back, which is amazing. Okay, so let's dive in. Carly, can you please read us your query?
- [03:12]
Carly Waters
Here we go. Dear Carly, thank you so much for all you do. I love the show and I've been an avid listener for years. Wynonna Earp meets the Last of Us in blazing bright, a 100,000 word dual POV Western horror inspired by the real life Buffalo Bill's Wild west show, just with more ghosts and cannibals. This sapphic and feminist historical reimagining will appeal to fans of the Unbroken by C.L. clark and Outlawed by Anna Norri. It's 1851 and there are two types of people, Brights and Flushes. The haves and have nots. Only Brights can gain power and immortality from consuming gold, and California's gold rush is booming. Emmeline's Blazing Bright Wild west show is all bright women and they've made their fame and fortune through violent performances on horseback. Where death is the star of the show, but not real death, when everyone is immortal. Emeline is power hungry and will stop at nothing to achieve her ultimate goal, to take the show overseas to London, chasing the dream she's had since her mother told her she was worthless. But the gold is weakening and running out. And as women in her show start dying and not coming back to life, she turns to an alternative form of power, killing and eating fleshes, which turns out to be even more potent than gold. The only problem is that Emmaline's girlfriend, Rose, doesn't agree with her methods. Rose joined the show long ago when it was about skills and sharpshooting, not death. She wants desperately to go back to that. But violence sells and Emmeline begins bringing fleshes into the show to fight each other to the death. Rose ultimately runs away with another woman, taking two of Emmeline's captured flushes with them. When fleshes start coming back as ghosts and seeking revenge on Brights, Rose finds herself fleeing deadly spirits. In addition to her murderous, cannibalistic, jilted ex lover, Rose and Emmeline end up on opposite sides of a supernatural world war. How much death will it take to end the violence? And can Emeline and Rose ever find their way back to each other after so much has happened between them? I'm a queer Latina woman, and when I'm not reading, I'm riding my horse. This is my debut novel. May I send you the full manuscript?
- [05:15]
Kali
Thank you, Carly. Wow. We've had quite a few stories about cannibalistic stuff lately. And again, last time we were like, do we need to have a trigger warning? Or. And. And cece disagreed. What do we say with this one?
- [05:29]
Carly Waters
You know, I think because in the opening paragraph it says cannibals. I'm like, I feel like that that word should be your trigger warning. So, you know, I think this one didn't need it by any means. The word count 393 on this one. All right, let's get into it. So I want to just go back to something that cece said, because cece started to ask, hey, can we know where people are at in their journey? So that that can help us inform but about, like, how we talk about the book. So for this one, this author is still in the process of writing and seeking early feedback and guidance, which is actually really helpful. And as CC said early on, when we were deciding whether to do this, it will kind of frame the way that we give the feedback. So just wanted to let everybody know that, especially you agents listening, if you want to request this, it is still under, you know, development, Just letting you guys know. Okay, so there's a lot of comps going on in this opening paragraph, which makes me think, again, because this person's still developing this. This is kind of. Here's my brain dump of everything that I was inspired by that I think will be an eventual comp. And so there's just a lot in it. The middle piece should actually be a hook. So I'd swap out the kind of just with more ghosts and cannibals. That's the line that should actually be the hook. And then you're just kind of throwing around words like ghosts and cannibals. But, like, that should be a little bit more of the hook. I think this one's going to be tricky to kind of nail down into a Hook, which is maybe why it is absent. There's obviously a lot going on, but definitely work hard at figuring that out. If you go back. We just spoke about everybody who goes back and listens to the show. Many times on the show, I've talked about different hook formulas. So go back and listen to one of my hook formulas if you want to run through your different ideas about how you think you can build a hook into this, especially when it's a bit more complicated. I have in the second paragraph, which is just kind of the first plot paragraph, a couple suggestions about word choice. It is a very kind of, like, punchy concept. It is. I had to read it a few times, and because obviously I'm reading it for the show, I would read it a few times because I want to give feedback and I want to understand what's going on here. If I was an agent who got this in my slush pile, I don't know if I would go back and read it that many times. If I really liked the hook, if I really liked the comps, if I really liked the title, I probably would read it a few times. If I'm like, okay, I want to get to the heart of this. But just letting you know that I did have to read it a few times. Okay, so the last line of the first body paragraph, it's not real death when everyone's immortal. I would swap out not for never, because I just think it's a bit of a stronger word. It's never real death when everyone's immortal is a bit stronger than it's not real death when everyone's immortal. So small word choice there for you. Okay, so let's get to the second paragraph, and then I'll kind of talk about the concept as a whole. In the second paragraph, it's all about Emmeline wanting to take the show overseas to London. I don't understand why she would want to go away from the gold. I. I understand. You know, she talks about the other people and she can get the gold from other sources. But you framed this entire query around California Gold Rush gold, gold, gold. And then all of a sudden, she's willing to go to London. Why? I don't know. When you frame the query, there's those. All those expectations built around California Gold Rush. And then all of a sudden, we're going to London. I don't understand the why of that piece necessarily. And then our last body paragraph, we are in a supernatural world war. Really cool. How long is this book going to be? A hundred thousand words. Is that enough to do all of this? I don't know. And I don't even know where the inciting incident is because there's so much time spent building up everything kind of to explain this world. So I don't understand the inciting incident. I don't understand how all this is going to happen in a hundred thousand word novel. And then at the end of the query you talk about can Emily and Rose ever find their way back to each other after so much has happened to them? I don't think we want them to find their way back to them. This sounds like one of the most unhealthy relationships I've ever heard in my life. So why would we want these two to get back together? And so we need to talk about this also in the I'm going to talk about this bit more in the pages because if this book isn't a love story between these two, it's a dual pov, right? So if this isn't a love story between these two POVs, is it like, is it lovers, enemies, lovers? Is it lovers, enemies? Then I just don't understand where the reader emotional payoff is if these two aren't really going to have. It doesn't necessarily be the most healthy relationship ever. But like the reader to understand like why these two belong together or the reparations that Emmaline will kind of try to, you know, what she's going to try to repair with Rose after putting her through this. So those are some of my high level thoughts about the concept. Again, because you're still writing this, I don't know where you are necessarily in the writing. It's a strong concept. Just as I said, the framing, where's the inciting incident? And why do these two need to be together? And why would the reader even want them to be together after everything that they've been through? Those are some of the parts that I don't understand.
- [10:29]
Kali
Can I ask a question? Because I've been seeing a lot of people talking about dark romance and is that not about like dysfunctional relationships, people who actually shouldn't be together and to make his lives miserable and stuff, or is that an incorrect understanding of that?
- [10:45]
Carly Waters
It really depends on the dark romance. I've only read a couple dark romances, but it's always very clear because it's like romance is the heart of it, that these two are meant to be together. Like that's the part of a dark romance is that even if they're doing dark things, these two are soulmates. So I Don't know if that helps a little bit, but that's a distinction for me.
- [11:05]
Kali
Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Carly. Okay. Cece handing it across to you.
- [11:10]
Cece Lira
Okay. So I had the same question about the inciting incident. I wondered if it might be the fact that the gold was weakening, so I actually highlighted that line, and I said, hey, is this the inciting incident again? Because you are still working on this. It is totally fine and normal and even healthy that you're still grappling and wrestling with these questions. But if it were a query letter that were ready, we would have to very clearly see inciting incident, incident, first escalation, second escalation, climax. Those beats have to be there. I know there's one listener going, why does it have to do anything? It's my book. You do. You. You do. You actually just remember, there are conventions and there are expectations. Whenever an agent is reading a query letter, fair or not, it is life. I thought there was a lot of plot, and I will say that this is a strong suit in this project. There are so many query letters we read where it's just vibes, sometimes quite excellent vibes. But, like, there's not actual story happening. And you measure plot points by a really simple metric, change. And if it's change that the protagonist did not see coming, that's actually better. And if it's change that's oscillating between victories and losses, that's better times, too. So I do see a lot of that here. And so I think that you have the bones of a really strong story. I just think that, to your point, writer who's listening to us, you're still working on it, which is so normal. I did wonder about, like, how can we possibly go through all of this in two POVs, in a hundred thousand words? But, hey, you know, the greats do it, so. So this is the part where really, we're in your hands, and whenever you're ready, you're ready. I thought it was a really strong concept. I just love cannibalism stuff. Like, you know, it's just fun. It's just fun.
- [12:52]
Carly Waters
She says that she's wearing red. Just, like, bloodthirsty. Yeah, yeah.
- [12:57]
Cece Lira
It's just fun, you know? Like, it's fun. It is a fun thing in a story. Like, I was so disappointed when that TV show. What is it called? The one where the soccer team hits the island. It was so good the first season, and then it got bad.
- [13:11]
Carly Waters
Yellow jackets.
- [13:12]
Cece Lira
Yellow jackets? Yeah, like. Like, and cannibalism and angry. And then we Also have the dual timeline where they're like, women because they're like, obviously adults at the second timeline, and they're angry and they have rage. That's just cool, you know, I. I have a lot of rage, and so I am not accountable. But maybe there's, like, a part of me that wants to live vicariously through these cannibals. Yeah, that's what I think.
- [13:34]
Carly Waters
I agree. This is a really strong concept. Like, I think if this person can pull off what they're trying to do. Yeah, they definitely have something here.
- [13:43]
Kali
Awesome. Okay, so we are now going to pages. Carly, what's in them and what's your take on them?
- [13:50]
Carly Waters
All right, so we have a timestamp of June, 1851. We are in New Mexico territory and we are in Rose's point of view. So what we come to know over a few pages is Emmeline and Rose are in one of these kind of battles that they're. With performances that they're doing with their Wild west troupe. We don't know right away. It takes a couple pages to know, but basically imagine kind of like a gladiator style thing where these two are kind of, you know, I imagine in a ring, going at each other, riding their horses around. They get their guns out. They're doing a big kind of like, pistol show. The whole time we're in Rose's point of view. So she's kind of talking about how she's really angry at Emmeline, but she looks beautiful. And she's very frustrated and, like, she knows what's going to happen, gets out the pistol, says the horses look beautiful with their gold manes. Everything's kind of wonderful. And it's kind of. Rose is like, expecting what's going to happen in this show that they're going to perform. So they shoot each other. Emmeline goes down as if she's dead. We understand later in the text of the immortal piece. We obviously know through the query that they're immortal. But it's very, like, strong and vivid on the screen or on the page. I should say I imagined it very cinematically. It was very vivid on the page. That of, you know, shooting, going down. The crowd kind of thinks that she's dead. And then we get something really unexpected, which is Rose kind of thought that was the end of the show. Emmaline stands up, comes back to life, shoots the horse that Rose is on. Rose goes down, and then, you know, this wasn't part of what they planned. So she's obviously very flustered by it. And then Emmaline comes over and then also shoots Rose. And so that we. Again, we understand it's part of the performance. Wasn't really what they expected. Rose is really upset. You know, obviously, it still hurts. Like, we kind of understand it still hurts to get. Get shot, even though she comes back to life. And Emmeline is just kind of saying, like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. And obviously, Rose is pretty shooken up. And they talk about the gold running out.
- [15:53]
Kali
Please tell me the horses are immortal, because if the horse gets shot and the horse is dead, then I'm like, I don't mind people getting shot and cannibalized, but I don't want the horses to be hurt.
- [16:03]
Carly Waters
Yes, exactly.
- [16:04]
Cece Lira
But they are hurt, though.
- [16:05]
Carly Waters
They are hurt. They come back to life.
- [16:07]
Cece Lira
It's not okay.
- [16:09]
Kali
Yeah, yeah.
- [16:09]
Carly Waters
They don't die longer for the horse to come back. Yeah.
- [16:12]
Cece Lira
Not okay. Not okay.
- [16:14]
Kali
So is that, like, something that should be a trigger warning in the. No. You don't feel like animal cruelty or whatever? Should be a warning in the query letter. No, it's.
- [16:25]
Carly Waters
It's one of these things.
- [16:26]
Kali
Okay.
- [16:26]
Carly Waters
Trigger warnings is always one of these things that are so frustrating because things that are triggered to me are different to you, which is different to cece and different to other agents. I know that animal cruelty is something that cece feels really strongly about. I'm an agent who's always been. I don't know. I'm able to dissociate my feelings from what I'm reading, and maybe that makes me less sensitive than other agents, but I've never needed trigger warnings personally because I'm able to kind of dissociate again. Call me crazy. Sign me up for a shrink. Whatever.
- [16:58]
Cece Lira
Do you mean, for animals? You never needed them for animals or in general?
- [17:02]
Carly Waters
I don't need trigger warnings at all. I know that sounds crazy.
- [17:05]
Cece Lira
Wait, but you just said you needed it for the cannibalism in the last query letter. Why were we disagreed?
- [17:11]
Carly Waters
When I talk about. I'm like, rolling up my sleeves. I'm like, okay, you did. Bye. No, but.
- [17:17]
Cece Lira
But you did, didn't you?
- [17:18]
Kali
I.
- [17:19]
Carly Waters
Because I'm trying to provide an educational show.
- [17:22]
Cece Lira
Oh, you're saying other people would need it.
- [17:24]
Carly Waters
I try to do my best to protect everybody else, you know?
- [17:28]
Cece Lira
That's very sweet.
- [17:28]
Carly Waters
Okay, I get it. I try to protect our listeners. I try to protect you guys. I try to protect all the other future agents that are gonna see these queries.
- [17:35]
Cece Lira
Got it, Got it.
- [17:36]
Carly Waters
Got it personally, me, Carly, as the literary agent, do not need.
- [17:39]
Cece Lira
Got it, got it, got it.
- [17:40]
Carly Waters
And I have never needed them. But again, that's just me personally. I understand we are in a different era where people feel very differently about that. So that's how I feel about that.
- [17:50]
Cece Lira
No, I understand now what you're saying.
- [17:52]
Kali
Okay. She could pull down her sleeves now.
- [17:55]
Cece Lira
I wouldn't need it for. For the animal cruelty only because it is very. It's kind of. It's just obvious, you know, like if you're reading about horses in an arena.
- [18:04]
Carly Waters
Yeah.
- [18:05]
Cece Lira
And their guns.
- [18:06]
Carly Waters
Like, yeah.
- [18:07]
Cece Lira
Like, I would just. I would just expect it. I don't like it. But I. Yeah, but I never. I. Here's the thing. I never see a downside to including it because it's not hurting anyone. So I don't think, like, I think, when in doubt, if you include it, great. You're protecting the people who need it. I have said this before. I read this in Roxane Gay's Now I forget what was the essay. But she essentially says, and I'm paraphrasing, the thing about trigger warnings is that they provide safety and that she thinks that it's actually a little wild that people would expect to feel safe in an unsafe world. And that's always been how I personally felt. But of course, you know, people like. Wonderful. It's wonderful that people get to feel safe. Like, it's a wonderful thing.
- [18:49]
Carly Waters
I mean, and again, I'm not saying that I feel this way. Another counter argument to trigger warnings is that some people feel like you're kind of giving away the heart of the novel. Like, is it a spoil? Like, are trigger warnings so spoilers? Some people feel that I actually.
- [19:03]
Cece Lira
It's not a spoiler to me, and I don't like spoilers. It's not a spoiler to me.
- [19:07]
Carly Waters
Sometimes they can be, because, you know, where. I don't know. Anyway, I feel like trigger warnings are coming up a lot late. I don't know what's in the water, but it's one of those things where nobody agrees on them at all. Yeah.
- [19:20]
Kali
Well, I ask because I'm the one who mans the podcast emails and I'm the one who gets the emails in which people are like, you really should have warned us about this content. So this is why I ask, because there are people out there who just listen to the podcast and get upset that we didn't pre warn them about certain things. So if there's listeners who get worked up, then there's certainly readers who are Going to get worked up and I mean, yeah, so it was, I don't
- [19:45]
Carly Waters
know, I just feel like mud. I feel like I've said on the show before, like, there's an E for explicit beside this program every week. Every week. There's never not an E for explicit. So, I mean, I think you can assume we're going to go to some dark places on this show. Yeah. Yeah.
- [20:01]
Kali
Okay. So, Carly, back into what was your take on the pages?
- [20:05]
Carly Waters
Okay. As you can see from my portrayal of what happened in them, there's a lot happening. Like, it was very interesting and I, you know, I slipped up and said on the screen because I actually felt found it very cinematic. I was very compelled by it. I felt like I was on the horse with her going through the scene when her scene partner betrayed her by not following through on the plan for what the actual was. I was like, how dare she? Like, Emily is so selfish. So I really, I did actually really, really enjoy this. I have some small notes about just like line level stuff where, you know, I had a note like, I don't understand how this action triggers this feeling. So everybody who subscribes to our substack will be able to see some of my line level notes on this. I had another line note and this is actually for everybody. So I want to read out a line that ends in a question and I want to explain why it's more powerful for it to be a statement than a question. So this was the question. Did Emeline always have to look so good when Rose was this angry with her? And it's fine as a question. I think it's so much more powerful as a statement. Emmeline always looked good when Rose was angry with her. So the difference to me is the question is ya. To me, like, the question of like, why did Emily always have to look so good when Rose is this angry with her? To me, that's like a YA framing of like bringing the reader into, like this conversation about it. I find it much more adult to be period. Emeline always looked good when Rose was angry with her. So again, it could be personal preference there, but I, I find it much stronger when we're ending with the period as opposed to the question mark. One of the things that I think might be a bit of a weakness in the first kind of two pages is how much we talk about the gold. It's a lot. Right. Like, we're really trying to prove our point here. You know, Rose always had thought a good horse was worth their weight in Gold. Rose squinted as she tried to aim at the back of Emmaline's head. The horses were fast with gold. We get it. You know, I think you've done a good job of establishing the kind of power behind that. We need to evolve the conversation, right? So, like, how do we go from just, you know, horse equals gold to what about the gold? Her starting to worry about the gold weakening. Is this the show when the gold runs out? Like, that's the kind of. That's where we need to evolve this conversation about the gold. But I was overall, like, really taken with it. You know, I understood that they were immortal. I was still upset, you know, when they went down. I really liked the unexpected moment of her scene partner, Emmaline, like, turning on her and not following the rules. I thought that was good. I also found, and this is really hard to do, which a lot of you guys know, if you're writing fantasy or anything, world building is how do you explain what's going on in the supernatural world while staying in plot, like, staying in scene? And so I thought a really good job was done here. When she's talking about getting shot, and she said her head still rang with the pain of getting shot, Gold would always heal her, but she felt every moment of the bullet shattering her skull, the ligaments in her knee tearing apart, the bones in her calf fragmenting under pistols, crushing weight, everything mending itself back together after the agony of her body rearranging herself. So it spoke to, like, the betrayal and the pain that she's feeling from her scene partner doing that to her, but also explained to us, oh, this is how the body heals with gold. So I thought that was a really, really good job of that happening. Okay, coming back to the love story piece, which I'm not going to let this go. Like, if these two are fated to be together, there has to be very early on, and it could be, you know, this happens on page 789, and we're just missing it on pages one through through five. There has to be the moment where we understand why Rose and Emmeline are fated to be together. It's a lot of Emily just doing whatever she wants. We understand she's selfish. That's very well established to us in the query letter. But we need to know why Rose puts up with this. This toxic relationship. Right? Why do people stay with their abuser? You know, like, why would you. And it's also a toxic work environment. Like, why would she stay in this environment? The reader is only going to put up with this for so long, the reader will not want to, you know, continue to be putting. Putting up with this. So there has to be that. Like, if it is true love, what you're trying to establish in your story, not to say that, you know, an abusive relationship is true love, or. I'm not trying to conflate any of these two things together. I'm just trying to honor the story that you're trying to tell here. We need to understand what this element of true love is. And I don't think it necessarily has to be a sex scene, but it has to be Emily being nice to Rose. Like, there has to be something where we understand the why of this relationship, because right now, this just looks like a toxic work environment where this person is kind of in love with their boss.
- [24:49]
Kali
Okay, Carly, thank you. Right. Cece, handing it across to you, I know how much you like being surprised in opening pages with something unexpected happens. So let's hear your take on that.
- [25:02]
Cece Lira
I feel like this is a really interesting situation because my read was totally different. Like, totally, totally different. And I'm always saying, like, it's subjective. And even when I read my slides, Flesh pile, and I'm alone when I do that, I always think, like. Like, would another agent feel differently? Probably. Right. To me, there was nothing surprising about this. I know that the protagonist was surprised that the horse was shot, but the reason why the surprise didn't land for me is because I was not feeling the active emotions. There was a removal to her tone, like, almost like she was resigned. And I think the reason behind this is because this was a routine scene for them. Like, they've done this a million times. More or less, the same thing always happens. Even the fact that she shot the horse, she's done that before. We know it because of dialogue. In dialogue, she says, you know, I don't like it when you do that. Meaning she's done it before. So I think that for me, I don't know if it's a matter of. You want to start in this place, like, the routine, you know, arena, gladiator, arena. And you just have to dial up the emotions or. Or we should start it in a different place. But I. Even when Pistol dies, Pistol was very shot and very dead. And I'm reading this and I'm going, like, where are the active emotions? Like, what? Why does it matter? Is Pistol essential for surviving? Is there an emotional attachment to Pistol? Is it concerned that he's hurt, even though he'll come back? I wanted to know what the urgency was in the Emotions. Her sentences were very clear, like, it was very action packed. This is true. And on a screen, it would work because on a screen, you're not inside someone's psyche. But in a book, it's different. In a book, I need to know layers and layers and layers of psychological processing with every action that happens. So it wasn't working for me. But again, this is so subjective. I feel like this is one of those situations where it's, you know what? How someone feels about a book says as much about them as it does about the book. Right? So this, this is me saying things. Something about me as well. I 1000% agree with Carly's point about the love story. I actually pulled up a little note and I said, okay. I'm noticing that the major dramatic question hinges on, like, will they find their way back to each other? But this person seems awful. Why would we want them to get together? I love a good and likable character. Do not get me wrong. I am fine with people behaving badly. But when it comes to the love story, if that's the story's engine, the reader needs to root for them, and I don't. I just can't imagine the reader rooting for yay. Stay with this person who was, like, blase about her selfishness, you know, just very casual about her cruelty. If I'm being very honest, it's possible that we'll go to her point of view and we'll have so much context on why she's acting this way and will understand. Like, all these things are possible, right? Like, we only read five pages, but yeah, I don't know. To me, to me, the removal was. Was real, but. But I love the concept.
- [27:50]
Kali
I do. All right, thank you both. Before we move on to CC's query letter, first, a word from our sponsors.
- [27:58]
Carly Waters
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- [30:48]
Kali
Okay, Cece, please read us your query letter.
- [30:53]
Cece Lira
Okay, let's do this. Hi there Cece. With high concepts and speculative twists on your wish list, I'd love for you to take a look at Never enough time. My 70,000 word debut high concept book club novel Annie Bot by Sienna Greer meets Forever Interrupted by Taylor Jenkins Reid. It follows the events that unfold after a dying mother, so terrified that her husband is incapable of looking after their young children, is forced to recreate herself, using AI to sure their worlds don't fall apart when she's gone. What could go wrong? Junie and Benny believed they were unbreakable until having children broke them. Still, Benny's happy enough, living selfishly as though he doesn't have children. Meanwhile, Junie's full of resentment but keeping all her rage inside. That is, until she's told she's dying and fears for her children's happiness without her. A conversation with her bestie who works in tech presents her with a way to live on with her family and keep running the home properly. Creating an AI version of herself is the answer to all their problems. Or so she thinks. With Benny left navigating a future he didn't choose, things soon start to take a dark turn. Juni 2.0 begins to manipulate him. His children prefer Juni 2.0 to him, and he uncovers big betrayals Juni kept from him while she was alive that leave him questioning everything about their marriage when his children being taken away from him becomes a very real threat, unable to see another way out of the mess he's found himself in. Will Benny rip his children's mother from their lives for a second time and break their hearts all over again? Never Enough Time is a feminist cautionary tale exploring the messy, dysfunctional reality of marriage, what grief could look like in the future, and the consequences of men's over reliance on their wives and AI assistants to get things done. At its heart is a deeply human question in the face of loss, what lengths would we go to to stay with the people we love, or to keep the people we love alive? A Northerner and a copywriter by trade, I've worked with advertising agencies across Manchester and London for over 14 years now. Also a mother by accident both times. I know how my time is split between keeping them alive, freelance copywriting, and crying over the real horror that AI is stealing the career I've worked so hard to build. Through my tears, I've Managed to write this manuscript and love every minute of it. Thank you so much for your consideration, Abby Davidson.
- [33:30]
Kali
Thank you, Cece. Okay, how many words did that clock in it and what was your take on it?
- [33:36]
Cece Lira
This came in at 433 words. I read the hook and I wrote a little note saying, this is brilliant. I read the plot paragraph and I wrote a little note saying, sign me up. I am. I have so many questions. Like, this is the power of a curiosity inducing premise. I don't understand how the POVs are going to work. Like, if Juni dies, how do we get Juni's resolution at the end? Like, there's a million questions. I don't care. I don't care about any of the questions I have. All I care about is give me the pages. I was deeply impatient as I read this query letter because I'm like, this is great. This is a brilliant concept. It's timely. I can imagine. Wait, what's the author's name? Abby.
- [34:12]
Abby.
- [34:12]
I can imagine your agent pitching this to editors, and editors leaning forward, their eyes wide, widening and going, give this to me now. The query letter is brilliant. Like, I love it. I'm obsessed. Yes. Just great job. Is my note.
- [34:27]
Kali
Wow, High praise indeed. Okay, let's see if Carly agrees. Carly.
- [34:33]
Carly Waters
Okay. I had really small notes, you know, just in the. Like, why is the title in bold italics? Like, Cece, you were so enthralled, you didn't even catch all the small notes here. She's. She just knew it.
- [34:45]
Cece Lira
I caught it.
- [34:45]
Carly Waters
I don't care. Okay. You know, see, that's the thing, right? It's like when we like something, we're like, rules, schmools. Like, it's fine, it's fine. We'll fix it later. And that's true. That's life. Like, that's how our job works. Which.
- [34:57]
Kali
Sorry, Carly, can I just jump in here? Do we know cc, where in the process this author is? Was this one of the submissions that
- [35:04]
Carly Waters
we're ready to query?
- [35:06]
Kali
Ready to query. Okay, good. Okay, carry on.
- [35:09]
Carly Waters
Yeah, I had the email open. Sorry, cece. Yeah, but they. They said they're ready to query, so. Yeah, so just small things. It could be because this person's British and they're just following the Brit kind of protocols from, you know, there. There are kind of different standards sometimes. So if that's what they are trying to do, then that's obviously fine, but. And for North American pitches, usually we're doing all caps. Okay. The hook, when I read it the first time, I thought it was the husband's mother because it says it follows the events that unfold after a dying mother. Because you think when a mother dies, you're kind of thinking of somebody elderly, right? When I see dying mother, dying mother, so terrified that her husband is incapable, and then I'm like. Of looking after their young children. So I got there. I would just. I don't know why we would call this person a dying mother if in the next line we get the young children piece. I don't know. I would just call it a wife. I wouldn't call her a mother. I don't know. There's just something about that. I just. It took me too long to put together her age, potential age, and that tripped me up a little bit. Okay, this. This part is probably going to work in this author's favorite and probably one of the reasons Cici really liked this, but the fact that. Sorry, I'm gonna swear everybody. The fact that this fcking idiot husband can't get his shit together and be a good dad, like, I'm, like, ready to, like, rip up my pages, start a little fire. I'm like, oh, man. Wow. Rage, rage, rage, rage, rage. I am so irritated by this husband. I'm so irritated that this wife is putting up with this. This for years of raising these small children. And I understand there are women that are in these marriages, and I know that there are people in these partnerships, and I get it. So infuriating. And so if you're gonna set it up like this. And I know the whole point, and again, we'll get to the feminist rage piece at the end here, but if you're gonna set it up like this, you really have to pay off. There really has to be a payoff here, because if I have to read 70,000 words of this husband being a fucking idiot, like, I'm just not gonna do it. I just won't. And so that's why I'm like, cece, you love this pitch so much. And I'm like, I just. I'm ready to be mad. I'm ready to be really mad.
- [37:21]
Cece Lira
I think that's why I loved it, the anger. I look at all my friends with kids, young kids, not my friends with grown kids. There is one exception to what I'm about to say, and I mean literally, one. I'm talking about dozens of women. All these men would die if they died. These men would not know how to run the households. These men would not know where anything is. They would need five AI assistants of the most, you know, like, it's.
- [37:45]
Kali
It is.
- [37:45]
Cece Lira
And by the way, the friend who's the exception is you.
- [37:48]
Carly Waters
Like, I think that if you.
- [37:50]
Cece Lira
Knock on wood, if you died. No, it is actually you. Like, I think Mike could do it because he's a great dad and a great husband. I don't know anyone else in your situation, Carly. Anyone else. Everyone has, I'm sorry to say, useless husband. Like, when it comes to taking care of the children. Yeah, Everyone. Sorry. I'm so glad my friends don't listen to this podcast. They would be like, no. They would either be really mad at me for saying it or they would send it to their husbands. Thank you, God, for not giving me friends who are writers.
- [38:20]
Carly Waters
I say this lovingly, too. None of my friends or family listen to this show, so we're just very thankful that all you say is, love our show so much.
- [38:27]
Cece Lira
Thank God.
- [38:29]
Carly Waters
Okay, I'll get back to it. Yeah, I'm mad. I'm just, like, mad about the whole thing. Right. And I understand that it's common, and so it is. It is very dark. Okay, so the third paragraph is the Never Enough Time is a feminist cautionary tale exploring the messy, dysfunctional reality. I actually don't think we need that paragraph at all, because I gleaned all of that from the body paragraph. Right, Cece? Like, didn't you? You put all that together before we got to that paragraph? Yeah, yeah, I would potentially take that out. I don't know. I just felt like sometimes. And I know there are agents, obviously, that just skim things. Of course, I felt teensy bit infantilized by that paragraph, because the type of agent that you want to work on this novel is the type of agent that would have put all of that together by the time they got to that paragraph. So decide if you want to cut it. Decide if you want to keep it. CeCe said she loved it as is, but I'm kind of like, I. I probably put all that together before we got there, but do you know what it is?
- [39:25]
Cece Lira
And I don't know if you do this. When I read. When I start reading a query letter, and it's just so good. Like, the story is so good, I don't even finish it.
- [39:33]
Carly Waters
I agree. You skim, and then you're like, give me the page. I just scroll.
- [39:36]
Cece Lira
Scroll pages. So, yes, yes. Our job is to offer this person feedback on the whole thing. 100% agree with you. It is overstated. I would say skip it. Like, again, my emotional response is different from my intellectual one, you know?
- [39:50]
Carly Waters
Yeah. This is One of these things where, like, when this person became a client, I would grab that paragraph and then think about how I was going to frame my pitch by infusing a lot of these themes into the work that I was going to do to write this pitch. That's what I would use that potential paragraph for. But I had put all of that together by the time that I got there.
- [40:08]
Kali
Okay, all right, we're going to go to the pages. Cece, will you tell us what was in them and your take on them?
- [40:15]
Cece Lira
So the protagonist, Junie, we have a timestamp that says, now she is telling. We find out that she's actually telling AI Right. This. This is a conversation she's having with AI about the worst day of her life. And we know that it's a conversation she's had before. And she's wondering, hey, every time I tell it, do I tell it differently? And it's the day she found out that she has terminal, you know, cancer. And it's very scary, obviously. And we get a little bit on her relationship with her husband, like, how they interact. She tells us straight up that she refus treatment and that AI is not supposed to tell her husband this, but if AI ever does tell her husband this, then AI should frame it in a positive way. She says exactly what AI should say, that she wanted to enjoy her last moments with her children. But again, she's very clear, you shouldn't tell him. He doesn't need to know any of this. So it's very, very clear. She thinks about how she wishes he had taken more pictures with her children, worried less about the way she looked. She thinks about how she's doing her job as a copywriter, but it's a job that's almost obsolete because of AI but she needs to do it to pay the bills. And. Yeah, and that's. That's essentially what happens.
- [41:22]
Kali
Okay, great. So let's hear your take on that.
- [41:26]
Cece Lira
Okay. This is going to be really, really hard. I've been doing this for, I guess, 225 segments, and it doesn't get easier. You'd think it would get easier. You'd think that I would feel desensitized to saying these things. I don't. If anything, it's worse. It's worst after 225 segments. But I believe in honest, direct feedback. So here it goes. You're not ready to query. The query letter is brilliant. Amazing. In my opinion, the execution is not working. This, to me, is a situation where you have a brilliant, brilliant premise, but the execution Isn't there yet? There are two possibilities that I see that could be happening. Possibility number one, this is the one that I really, really hope is the case. This is kind of like a prologue. Sneaky prologue. And so the issue is the prologue. If we had kept on reading, I would have seen brilliant chapters that were working. And I'm going to talk about why they're not working in a second. Possibility number two, the execution isn't working as a whole. And I don't like this one because it's going to mean a lot more work, but I cannot tell you which one that it is. There's also the option of another possibility that I'm not thinking of. Why is it not working on two fronts? Front number one is a storytelling front. She is removed. She is resigned. She has very little emotions. She has beautiful empathy emotions. I highlighted a few lines that were really beautiful and made me feel empathy. Making the reader feel empathy is great. It is not sufficient. The reader has to feel curiosity. Curiosity comes from active emotions. Fear and desire conveyed through surprise. There is no surprise here. Rules are a little different for prologue, in which mood and mystery are the goal. But there is no mystery here because the mystery of the query letter, which is the big secret she's keeping, we find out. At least I think we do, which is the fact that she refused treatment and her husband doesn't know. It's all very like cards on the table. That's what you're doing. You're doing cards on the table. And I don't think it's working because it is leaking all attention, like all the tension in this brilliant premise. I did highlight lines that I liked, and I want you to know this. And you know, Substack supporters will see this. You will see this. Very realistic things that she would think. Like the thing about not worrying about her appearance, that is a thousand percent what someone in this situation would be thinking. So very good job there. But there was just, again, the storytelling wasn't like the. The framing of the. The information wasn't working. And then the second part. Oh, God, I hate doing this. Okay, second part, the enemy. I'm putting my Grinch hat on the enemy.
- [43:45]
Kali
This is why people need to watch on YouTube because you. You need to see the Grinch hat, people. So I hate.
- [43:51]
Cece Lira
I hate the Grinch hat.
- [43:53]
Carly Waters
This outfit is great.
- [43:56]
Kali
Yeah.
- [43:57]
Cece Lira
How do I look? Charming. Should I go out with this?
- [43:59]
Carly Waters
Listen, we're recording the week before the Met Gala, and let me say, this outfit belongs in the Met gala.
- [44:06]
Kali
Yeah.
- [44:06]
Cece Lira
Just saying. Devil wears Prada What? What are you talking about? Cece wears Grinch hat. Okay. Oh, my God. I do not like saying this. The enemy of good writing isn't bad writing. The enemy of good writing is bland writing. The writing here is very, very bland. Like, it is overwritten. There is some technical things that need to go. Do you.
- [44:29]
Carly Waters
Do you think it's because she's writing to the check chatbot? I think this is what we have to figure out, right?
- [44:35]
Cece Lira
That's one possibility. That's a very strong possibility. I don't know. Because we would have to read so much more to properly diagnose it, Right? And even then, we'd have theories. We wouldn't know. I think that for this to work, this high concept of market novel that has this brilliant premise, you would need voicey writing. This is a thousand percent a matter of taste. Writing is always a matter of taste. The kind of writing I like. I'm not talking, like, highbrow literary writing, which I also love, but I'm not talking about the that. I'm talking about that kind of writing that is voicey in a way, that has personality and rhythm. That is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about writing on a line level. People think it's about copy editing. It is not love. Copy editors love, love, love. But I'm not talking about that. I am talking about personality, rhythm, and flair that's missing here. So I. Go ahead, Karin.
- [45:20]
Carly Waters
Oh, I was just gonna say. Cece, have you finished yesteryear yet?
- [45:23]
Cece Lira
Yes.
- [45:24]
Carly Waters
Okay. I haven't finished it yet. I'm still in the opening section. But this reminds me of, like, what. Like, this is trying to be what yesteryear is in that opening section of, like, establishing all of these tensions, like, the way that you pitch this and how layered and complicated you pitched this. I thought we were gonna get an opening like yesteryear, where it's like, actions aren't matching. You know what they're saying. We're setting up all of this tension. We're setting up all of these layers in the dynamic in the household. So if this person hasn't read yesteryear yet, I would read that, because I think that would shape, if you want to keep with an opening like this. And I agree with Cece, I don't necessarily think it's working. That could be a good idea to see. Like, how do you build all these tensions while trying to establish the way that you're talking to the reader?
- [46:08]
Cece Lira
Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. I guess an easier way to do it might be easier. I don't know what is easy, but another way to do it might be, like, put us in that scene with her in that moment where she's actually finding out and her emotions are raw. Because I don't know why talking to AI in the beginning, I would actually like us to see a scene prior to that. I think you might have B disease. Because B has this disease. She always keeps moving her books to earlier scenes. If you showed us a scene of her household before the diagnosis, and I could see how much is on her plate, that mental load, and it has to be an interesting scene, obviously, that could be a great scene. And then we could see the diagnosis. Do you know what I'm saying? And again, if you want a prologue, fine, but it can't be a prologue, right? All the time attention is leaking, or else I have to put my Grinch hat on and be really mean. Yeah, I don't think. I don't think it's ready. But, hey, you know what? This is an industry that trades in subjectivity. I hope I am wrong. I hope you find the agent of your dreams. Truly, I do. And then you come on the podcast to tell us the story of the Queenie Letter. I'm not the Queen. The story of the novel.
- [47:08]
Kali
Awesome. Cece. Kali.
- [47:11]
Carly Waters
Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest issue is, like, I didn't believe she was having a conversation with the chatbot. Like, either she was writing a letter to input into the chatbot, or I don't know. I just didn't believe it. Like, that's just not actually how people interact with chatbots, like, in real life. So I guess I didn't believe that because when you interact with the chatbot, you're like, hey, chat. And then Chat replies this, and then
- [47:35]
Cece Lira
you reply, I have never interacted with a chatbot. I would not know. Like, literally never. I believe you. I just don't know.
- [47:42]
Carly Waters
Yeah, I mean, that's how. Like, for example, when I'm. Because usually you're asking chatbot a question, or the alternative is that she's preparing this as, like, building the base for the AI. We're going to get technical, but, like, you'd be building the base for the AI agent, and so you would prepare documents and information to give to the AI chatbot. But I. That's boring. That's boring, right? I think that's what CC's getting at, right? Where it's like, we don't want to watch you prepare your documents to feed into your chatbot, to Become Mombot. You know, we want seen, we want action. And this is very dramatic and very sad. And the fact that we're not crying reading about this. Mom learning out she has a terminal diagnosis. That's tough, man. Like, that's a tough, tough place to start. So I think we've diagnosed a few issues here. We really like the concept. You know, I don't think we can be any more clear about that. Like, we really genuinely think you have something here. But I. It's just, it's not working here on the page. And again, it could be a classic case of, you know, branding on page six and by page seven, you know, something wonderful and magical is happening. But it's so flat. And we've just. I would love to see so much more life here because this book is about life. It's about living, and it's about what happens when you're not there, you know, and so for it to just feel so flat. Talking to tech, Tech da, da, da. Well, tech, I don't know. We believe in you. We believe in you, Abby. We really do.
- [49:09]
Kali
Hopefully it's just a sneaky prologue that can be removed and the first chapter will shine with jazz hands. So fingers crossed for that and for
- [49:18]
Cece Lira
the author, if it makes you feel better. If this were in my slush pile, because the premise is so strong, I would keep on reading because, like, we get 10 pages in the slush pile, not five. So I would keep on. I would push myself to keep on reading because I would be really excited to find a gem like, there is. There is that. And I'm not saying every agent would do that, but, like, I have more time, so I would do it well.
- [49:37]
Kali
And you've got a wonderful query letter, so there's that.
- [49:40]
Cece Lira
Yes.
- [49:40]
Kali
To celebrate. Generally, it's like bad query, not great opening pages. So you've got. You've got a lot going for you there. Okay, Carly and Cece, thank you so much. For anyone who wants to submit for Books With Hooks, go to the Shit About Writing website and go to the Books With Hooks tab. And you can now specify whether you early on in the process or later on in the process, which does help help inform our critique. So we'll be back with another Books With Hooks in two weeks time. Thanks, everyone. Bye. Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query Cece, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. The last Beta Reader matchup of the summer has been extended thanks to gremlins in the system. Instead of the matchup happening on 2nd June, it will now be extended to 9th June with matchup emails going out that day. If you haven't registered yet and would like to take advantage of this extension, you have until midnight Eastern Time on the 8th June, please go to www.aboutwriting.com. look for the Beta Reader Matchup tab and you can find all the details and register there.
- [51:17]
Cece Lira
What's up everyone? This is cece so I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled. And I wasn't surprised at all because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So, personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with hooks and of course, in my submissions inbox. But at the same time, I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, not no agent, no acquiring editor is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean, it's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible, to make agents crave it, to make agents want to read more. That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course, Starting it right how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure sure that your story's beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the best one, the best place to start and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things when it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory and what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline.
- [53:38]
Most of all, I'm going to show
- [53:40]
you how to make readers want to turn to Chapter two. Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up come first, prepare to take lots of notes. We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques, plus a super fun surprise that I can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.