Leaning into Illustrator Notes & CeCe Not Minding a But, But

Summary

Episode Summary: "Leaning into Illustrator Notes & CeCe Not Minding a But, But"

Release Date: May 15, 2025
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Waters, and CeCe Lyra
Title: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of "The Shit No One Tells You About Writing," host Bianca Marais, alongside literary agents Carly Waters and CeCe Lyra from P.S. Literary Agency, delve deep into the intricacies of crafting compelling query letters and opening pages. The episode features their "Books with Hooks" segment, where they critique actual query letters submitted by listeners and offer invaluable advice to emerging writers aiming to navigate the competitive publishing landscape.

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Books with Hooks: Critique of "Job Code 13" by Nicole Cabrera

Reading the Query Letter

Time Stamp: [01:44]
CeCe Leera kicks off the segment by presenting the query letter for "Job Code 13," written by Nicole Cabrera. The letter outlines a Young Adult (YA) fantasy romance plot where the protagonist, Margaret, grapples with life after being drafted into the "extended life," a realm where she must work to maintain the balance between hope and hate among the living.

Carly Waters' Feedback

Time Stamp: [05:00]
Carly offers a thorough critique, highlighting several areas for improvement:

• Genre Consistency: She questions the choice of comparison titles, noting that "Blue Sisters" by Coco Mellors is more literary fiction than YA, which may not effectively position the manuscript within its intended market.

  "I don't think that Blue Sisters by Coco Mellors, a fantastic book, just isn't going to cut it as a YA comp." – Carly Waters [05:10]

• Plot Clarity: Carly identifies confusion in the plot description, specifically regarding Margaret's romantic involvements and the mechanics of the "extended life."

  "When she said falls in love with a high school crush along with her instructor, I'm like, has she fallen in love with two different people?" – Carly Waters [05:25]

• Stakes and Conflict: She emphasizes the need to escalate the stakes beyond Margaret's internal conflict, suggesting that external dangers facing Evie need further development.

  "If you start a book with Evie needs me... the stakes need to be higher by the end of the book." – Carly Waters [07:00]

• Author Bio: Carly advises condensing the author bio to focus on the most relevant achievements, omitting specific years to present the manuscript as a "hot property" ready for market.

  "Take out the 2018. Take out the 2020... make it a bit more like, I've won these awards." – Carly Waters [11:16]

Bianca Murray's Observations

Time Stamp: [09:43]
Bianca echoes Carly's concerns, particularly about the potential red flags in the author bio and the need for clearer plot development.

CeCe Leera's Insights

Time Stamp: [13:33]
CeCe acknowledges the subjectivity of agent feedback, sharing that personal experiences lead her to view the manuscript differently. She underscores the importance of not being deterred by varied opinions and emphasizes the need for authenticity in querying agents.

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Books with Hooks: Critique of "Rocking Rita" by Megan T.

Reading the Query Letter

Time Stamp: [27:43]
Carly presents her own query letter for "Rocking Rita," a children’s picture book about a 7-year-old girl aspiring to be a rock star. The story explores Rita's journey as she navigates new social dynamics in her music class, balancing her passion with emerging anxious feelings.

Carly Waters' Self-Critique

Time Stamp: [27:47]
Carly provides an in-depth analysis of her query letter, focusing on:

• Age Range Specification: She suggests narrowing the target age range to make the manuscript more marketable.

  "I would look up your comps and probably narrow it a bit more to 4 to 7." – Carly Waters [30:06]

• Kid-Centric Focus: Emphasizing the importance of making the story more child-centric, Carly advises shifting the narrative to highlight the protagonist's experiences and emotions from a child's perspective rather than adult-centric descriptions.

  "We need to make this more kid centric and a little bit less adult centric." – Carly Waters [30:38]

• Hook and Conflict Enhancement: She stresses the necessity of a stronger conflict to engage young readers, drawing parallels with successful picture books like "Box Attacks" by Kim Smith.

  "There is learning that happens, but it's really driven through the hook and the portmanteau of box attacks." – Carly Waters [32:02]

• Illustrator Notes: Carly highlights the importance of effective illustrator notes to complement the narrative, allowing visuals to enhance storytelling without overloading the text.

  "Illustrator notes just do the job of, like, relieving the pressure of the writer to spell everything out." – Carly Waters [39:22]

CeCe Leera's Reflections

Time Stamp: [42:34]
CeCe concurs with Carly's critiques, particularly on the need for a more authentic child’s voice and clearer plot points. She suggests incorporating layers of the protagonist's emotions to make Rita more relatable and multidimensional.

"I felt it too, when I was reading. And now I'm like, oh, that's what it was." – CeCe Leera [42:49]

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Upcoming Features and Announcements

• CeCe Leera’s Writing Course:
  Time Stamp: [00:00] & [46:45]
  CeCe announces her upcoming four-day class titled "Writing Emotion and Relationships," commencing on June 18th. The course promises over 10 hours of content covering crucial aspects like active versus passive emotions, leveraging emotions into tension, creating character chemistry, and more. An interactive component allows participants to submit scenes for live critiques.

• Next Week’s Episode Teaser:
  Time Stamp: [44:58]
  Bianca previews the next episode featuring listener Jessica Guerreri, who will discuss the evolution of her work following a critique on "Books with Hooks." Her book, "Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea," will be the focus of the upcoming discussion.

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Memorable Quotes

• Carly Waters on Genre Consistency:

  "I don't think that Blue Sisters by Coco Mellors, a fantastic book, just isn't going to cut it as a YA comp." – Carly Waters [05:10]

• Carly Waters on Stakes Enhancement:

  "If you start a book with Evie needs me... the stakes need to be higher by the end of the book." – Carly Waters [07:00]

• CeCe Leera on Emotional Writing:

  "The best stories are the ones that make readers feel... mastering writing relationships effectively." – CeCe Leera [00:00]

• Carly Waters on Kid-Centric Focus:

  "We need to make this more kid centric and a little bit less adult centric." – Carly Waters [30:38]

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Conclusion

This episode of "The Shit No One Tells You About Writing" offers a treasure trove of insights for emerging writers. Through meticulous critique of real query letters, Bianca, Carly, and CeCe provide actionable feedback that underscores the nuances of genre alignment, emotional depth, and audience-centric storytelling. Whether you're refining your YA fantasy romance or shaping a children’s picture book, the hosts equip you with the knowledge to elevate your writing and successfully engage with literary agents and editors.

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Stay Tuned: Don’t miss next week's episode featuring Jessica Guerreri's journey post-critique of "Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea." Subscribe to their Substack Newsletter for exclusive content, bonus videos, and more expert advice.

Transcript

[CeCe Leera]

Hi everyone, it's Cece here. If you're a fan of the podcast, then you know that one of my most common notes on the Books with Hooks segment is about writing emotion. And that's because the best stories are the ones that make readers feel. But as a storyteller, you know that pulling that off is hard work. It involves not only the obvious skill of writing emotion really well, but also mastering writing relationships effectively. Since those emotional beats involve the protagonist's relational connections. The best stories are also relationship driven. That's why I'm so excited to announce that I'm teaching a four day class called Writing Emotion and Relationships starting on June 18th. Over the course of four days, we'll cover over 10 hours of content, including active versus passive emotions, how to leverage emotions and relationships into tension, showing versus telling, how to create chemistry between characters, emotional calibration and roles for various characters, from love interest to antagonist, and so much more. And my favorite thing, this course will feature an interactive component. Everyone who signs up will have the option of submitting a scene from their work for a chance to have it critiqued during the course. We did this in my Starting It Right class in March, and if you were there, you know it was a smashing success. If you'd like to know more, check out the link in my bio on Instagram. I hope to see you there. Come prepared to take lots of notes.

[Bianca Murray]

Hi there and welcome to our show, the shit no one tells you about writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and CeCe Leera from PS Literary Agency. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Books with Hook segment. As per usual, we are diving straight in. Cece, will you please read us your query letter?

[Carly Waters]

Dear CeCe, you and the whole podcast rock. Thank you for all you do. And without Further ado, job code 13, yafantasyromance, complete at 94,000 words, captures the world building of the Good Place family drama of Gilmore Girls and the emotional intelligence of Blue Sisters by Coco Mellors. Margaret wants more than anything to give her little sister Evie a happy life, something she never had for herself. But on her 18th birthday, Margaret dies in a perfectly planned school bus accident along with 18 other students. But it's Margaret who's being drafted into the extended life, and her plans to protect Evie burned to ash. The extended life demands that Margaret take on job code 13, which extracts the reluctant dead and brings them to the extended life to work and to heal. If left uncollected, the dead waywards devour the delicate balance between hope and hate for the living. Margaret doesn't care about the weight of the world. She plans to use her assignment as a means to escape. She wants to get the hell out so she can be once again with her sister. But when Margaret falls in love with her high school crush along with her instructor, and after she completes her mission, she realizes how much good she's doing for the world, Margaret gets a feeling of belonging that she's never had. Margaret has to decide whether to forsake Evie so she can continue working in the extended life or stay with her sister, thus allowing the world to suffer from continued rage and hate. Family or fate? Margaret has to choose, but each choice comes with a cost. Job Code 13 takes the reader on an unforgettable fast action adventure to the other side of life, where love, grief and hope conquers all. I have a podcast right away after party. I'm also a member of SCBWI Storyteller Academy and I have taken workshops with highlights, Writer's Barn and manuscript academy. Job Code 13 won the 2018 Rising Kite at the SCBWI Florida Regional Conference. Additionally, my thriller Her Bones won the rising kite in 2020. My picture book honk honk cherito won the 2024 pb party honorable mention award and July 2024 job code 13 won a first page contents contest with ready chapter one. When I'm not at my desk, you can find me in my pool, on a golf course, in a kayak, or being dragged at 5:15am that's very early for a walk with my fabulous husband and demanding boxer Lilo. I eagerly look forward to your response. Sincerely, Nicole Cabrera thank you Cece.

[Bianca Murray]

I'm going to point out that there was already one line in there that had me questioning something. When she said falls in love with a high school crush along with her instructor, I'm like, has she fallen in love with two different people? Or is her high school crush her instructor? So, something to keep in mind when we are writing these query letters, right Cece, can you tell us what the word count was and what your take on that was?

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, let's do it. So the word count was 428 words. Oh my gosh. I have so many thoughts on this. I I first want to say, I guess as a disclaimer, I am not super well versed in ya. I have read enough YA that I feel like I can offer an opinion, but it's more of a reader than of a publishing profess professional. That being said, I don't think that Coco Mellor's Blue Sisters, which is a book I love, is the best comp for you. It's just that it's not ya, it's actually literary fiction. Like, you might argue it's book club, but it's. It definitely skews literary. And the other two comps, the Good Place, which I love, and Gilmore Girls, which I love even more, they're also not yas. And so I just worry that not having a book YA comp isn't going to set you up for success. So I would recommend maybe considering adding that instead of Blue Sisters. I love the emotional intelligence there too, but I don't know. I don't think it's the best comp, at least based on what I read from your first pages when it comes to the plot. So I As a note for all storytellers, when looking at your plot paragraph, it is very common to make the following quote unquote mistake. You begin with a sentence that establishes what the protagonist is going through, and then you have a but sentence. But on her 18th birthday, she dies. Makes total sense. The but is a contrast, right? Like it's saying, oh, but then this thing happened. And then you have another sentence that starts with but. And it's not the repetition that I mind because it didn't actually stand out. It's more like, but it's Margaret who's being drafted to the extended life. And that didn't make any sense because if Margaret died, she's the one who should be drafted. You know, like, there's no contrast. So just remove that. But it's a super simple fix that's going to make your query letter read a little bit better. When it comes to the stakes, you're telling me that she has now fallen in love with one, maybe two people? I'm not sure. She's 18, so the creepiness of falling in love with the instructor, I guess, is diminished. Especially because she's dead. I'm okay with that. That didn't bother me. But then you're saying she now feels like she belongs. Except she has to choose between this place where she belongs for the first time ever, and Evie. Evie being okay. But. And this is a very sad reality of the human brain, if you start a book with Evie needs me, Evie is in danger because she's six and she is a vulnerable child by the end of the book. That can't still be the stakes. Like the stakes need to be higher by the end of the book. And you haven't told me of any new danger Evie is facing. I get that she's alone and now Margaret isn't there, but that happens at the beginning. Margaret leaves Evie through no fault of her own, and so Evie is already alone, already abandoned, already having to face the world by herself. Maybe Evie got placed in a group home. And this group home is scary. Maybe. I don't know what the plot was, but I need you to establish that. Because the human brain gets used to stakes, even super high stakes. And then the human brain keeps wanting us to up those stakes because that's just. That's just how we are. We get bored really easily. We have the attention span of moths, sad reality of humanity. So yeah, when it comes to the stakes, that's what I would do. You are calling this romance, you're calling this ya and you're calling it a fast action adventure. I worry that you're calling it too many things. You know, I don't think that you need the line about fast action adventure if that's not what is going to stand out in your pages. Maybe it is. I'm not sure based on only 5, but I just think you need to really, really be sure of what your genre is. I say this, and yet, listen, if you guys listen to my interview with Liane Moriarty, she doesn't know her own genre and she's a superstar, so maybe you get a pass. I don't know. It would make your life easier if you knew your genre in terms of querying agents. But I do think that it's another reason why you need a different comp. Because if you are calling it fast action adventure, Blue Sisters by Coco Mellors, a fantastic book just isn't going to cut it. And I also want to say that your author paragraph was really, really impressive. So impressive, in fact, that I think you might have to choose a few highlights as opposed to all the highlights that you added. Maybe you're already choosing, but it is quite long. And so since you might have to work on your plot paragraph just for word count's sake, you might remove, for example, the picture book prize you won because this is in the picture book, so it's still super impressive, but you might be using up extra words.

[Bianca Murray]

Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you.

[Carly Waters]

All right, I'm gonna try not to overly echo exactly everything Cece said because it was a great analysis, but I definitely agree we need other book comps. I do think the Good Place is a great comp. Obviously, you know, we want to stay within genre here, but there is a book that I grabbed off my shelf to talk about also when we talk about the pages, but the love of my afterlife. This book also right away starts with a character kind of going into the afterlife or the in between life and all that sort of stuff. So you need to potentially something like this, which is slightly speculative teen romance with a bit of fantasy for the, as I said, the YA category. So that's probably something a bit more up your alley for your comps. I do think this is an incredible hook. Like the opening of the body paragraph is very, very interesting. Where I get bogged down are the.

Rules of the world.

Like, how does she get back? And you know, did all of these people die with her? Like the high school, you know, love interest and the instructor and all of that? So I just didn't understand. I don't really understand the world. I don't understand how gets back. And I think I would like to.

Be a little bit more clear in.

Terms of how that all works. I have a feeling you probably just.

Were trying to simplify things as much.

As possible, so you probably left out a bit of that. But I'm just letting you know I'm a bit confused on that, and I would love to know a little bit more about that.

All right. Your title, job code 13.

I think it's a great title. You definitely need to all caps it, though. You have it just italicized and the entire title should be a cap.

So just a reminder for that.

Now I want to talk about the author bio paragraph. I will say it potentially gave me a couple yellow flags that I want to talk about. Not red flags by any means. Yellow means like my little agent antennas are going up and I'm trying to decipher a few things.

When you say job code 13 won.

The 2018 Rising Kite at the Sewi Florida Regional Conference. You've been working on this book for at least seven years is what you're telling me. So I have a lot of questions about that. You know, what's happened in those seven years? Is it taking you that long to write it? Maybe this Rising Kite Award was like the first chapter award or something. And so again, like, what's happened in all of those years, all of this to say agents want things when they are hot and timely. And I want to be like, I'm the first agent you ever queried, even if I'm not the first agent you ever queried.

Sometimes you have to allude to this.

Being like, hot off the press property here. And so when you tell me probably a lot of agents have seen this in some capacity or another, Whether it's over the years, you know, whether it's at conferences, I just start to think, what's.

What's the issue?

What are we coming up against? Why haven't you queried it yet? Why haven't you queried me with it yet? What work are you doing on this? Or what work is still to be done about why it's finding me? And I know you're querying the podcast, and again, that's why we're having a critical discussion about it, but I just want you to know, like, what my agent antenna would be doing, what I would see. Something like that. You might want to specify it's a first draft award or a first chapter award, or it could be that the finished manuscript won an award, and that's great. And it has taken you this many years to write the book. But again, I don't have the magical answers for you. I guess what I would do is potentially take out some of these years that you have specified. So take out the 2018. Take out the 2020. You know what I'm trying to say? Like, make it a bit more like, I've won these awards for this book, and it's not that you're fibbing to an agent, you're just omitting a little bit of the fact information, and that's okay. Obviously, I'm not saying again, when it comes time to talk to an agent, you don't tell them the truth, but we have to kind of, again, make this a hot property, a hot commodity, especially when you have such a great hook. I'll be honest with you. I'm kind of wondering what's gone wrong in seven years, to be perfectly honest with you. That's what my agent brain says.

[Bianca Murray]

Can I throw it back to you, Cece? Did you have the same reaction to that? Would you have the same questions? Because again, on the show, we trying to show you that it is very subjective. One agent might think this, the other might think something different. How did you feel?

[Carly Waters]

I didn't notice the year. Like, my brain sped through it. My brain often speeds through these contests, which is not very smart on my end. Right. But it's just the honest answer. I think that for me, I definitely see what. What Carly's saying now that she said it, but it wouldn't be where my brain would go. I know so many people who took 10 years to write their first book because you're teaching yourself how to write it and rewriting it so often that I would probably just attribute it to. This is the manuscript that you are. That you've been teaching yourself to write with. That's what I would attribute it to. Like, I. Again, I'm going to use Laura Loeffler's book as an example. This will air in May, and Laura's book comes out in May. I am sure she spent at least a decade working on that manuscript through various iterations, through various forms, or if not the one, we sold another one, which is the one she taught herself to write with. It's just so common. Right. So I think that. I think it's something to be mindful of because you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot. And if an agent could have that reaction, then then why include the year? You know, you don't have to include the year. Just being really frank with you. But I. But my brain wouldn't go there. So it is very subjective, which I get. Also, is not what people want to hear. People want to hear this is the right way to do it. And then they want to have a clear guideline. And I'm so sorry to not be able to offer that. Maybe that also is part of the magic of this industry, right? The fact that different people look at things in different ways. Not just authors, but also agents, too.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, Cece, what was in those opening pages? Can you summarize them for us?

[Carly Waters]

Yes, I have my little written summary here. So the protagonist is rushing to the hospital. It becomes clear through interiority and action that Evie, her sister, is having a really serious, I believe, asthma attack. There's reference to an inhaler. She reaches the emergency entrance where a nurse is waiting to admit her sister. And the nurse tells the protagonist, don't panic. We got her. And then the protagonist begins hearing her sister's voice in her mind, which is a phenomenon that happens to her. She hears voices of the dead. She heard her grandpa, heard her mom when she died recently. So now she's desperate because she can hear her sister's voice. It probably means her sister's dying and she wants to follow her sister in. Her sister's on a gurney. But then a police officer stops and threatens to arrest her because he saw her speeding. And the protagonist reasons with him, she's really angry, but she doesn't let her anger show and brings up her sister's situation in the hopes of making him feel compassionate and letting her go. Which it works. So then the cop does let her go.

[Bianca Murray]

Okay, great. So what are your thoughts on this? Right place to start.

[Carly Waters]

Maybe on the right place to start. Like it could work with work, but right now it's not working, and I'll tell you why. So I'll start with the smaller note, then I'll zoom out. This submission is actually a great opportunity to talk about a storytelling hack I find super useful. Here's what it is. When introducing a new character, and by new, I mean new to the reader, make sure that we're getting sharp specifics on that new character, filtered through the protagonist's unique perspective. So, for example, in these pages, as soon as the protagonist arrives at the hospital, we are introduced to Nurse Christine. And the lines that introduce Nurse Christine are the following. I'll read it for you guys. It starts with dialogue. How is she? Nurse Christine brushes her soaked bangs from her eyes, and when they land on Evie's arms dangling, she snaps her fingers. Don't panic. We got her, honey. I want to scream. Help her. So I love the action. I want to be clear about that. We're in the scene. The movements are clear. You did a really good job polishing up the scene, but I have to say that I would have liked it even more if the author had tethered that introduction to Nurse Christine in a way that shows the protagonist's unique socio emotional framework. So here's an idea, and probably it's not going to work for you, but just to think, perhaps given the context of the scene, it would have been ideal to have the protagonist be flooded with relief as soon as she saw Nurse Christine's face. Nurse Christine is the best nurse in the hospital. And if it were Nurse, I don't know, Nurse someone else. Nurse Bob. Nurse Bob is incompetent. Nurse Bob thinks that her. Her reactions are too much, so she's relieved to see Nurse Christine. Or maybe that's not the case with Nurse Christine. Right. But whatever it is, I want to see Nurse Christine through her unique lenses. She is not just a level headed, impartial narrator. She is a person. And people see different people in different ways. And that goes for highlighting physical traits. But honestly, in an emotional situation like this, I think you should highlight emotion because she is desperate. She's going to the hospital. Her sister's dying. So I need to know how she feels about Nurse Christine. And those specific emotions will actually paint Nurse Christine in a very, very compelling lens for me as a reader. And then my second note is a bit more complex. Throughout the entire scene, the protagonist is fixated on the fact that she must do things for her sister. And I'll read you a Few examples of direct thoughts in italic. I never wanted a party, can't have a boyfriend. My sister has to come first. Couple pages later, also a direct thought in italic. Evie has to come first. And then a little bit after that. This time not in italics, but still interiority. I'm barely holding it together, but I can't fall apart. Evie needs me to be strong. My note, and this is where I put on my Grinch hat. As a human, I completely understand her wanting to protect her sister. I have a baby sister too. I'm the eldest in my family. I get it. As a storytelling setup, it's also really smart because when you give the protagonist a vulnerable to protect, you are going to make the reader connect with them. You are giving them a purpose. You are upping the stakes. It's super smart, but the way it's being framed now, in my view, it's falling flat for my taste. Because the protagonist is reading is one dimensional. It's feeling a little on the nose. I suspect it's because you're framing the protagonist as this super altruistic, 100% devoted and giving person, which I get that she is in her actions, but her interiority and emotionality should reflect layers, including unsavory layers. So layers that she wouldn't be proud of. It's emotions that would make an average person feel embarrassed and ashamed of feeling potentially right because she's human. So essentially she didn't feel real to me because you've made her an angel. You've made her have a one track mind. Evie, Evie, Evie. And I get it in her actions because ultimately her choice is always to protect Evie. But I think it would be more compelling to start maybe a little bit before you've started. Maybe she's finally having a day to herself. Maybe she's not focusing on her sister. She's like, I am finally having a moment for me. And then her sister would interrupt that moment and she'd feel resentful and annoyed and guilty for feeling resentful and annoyed. This is what I mean by layers, right? Like one emotion triggers the other and we'd see all those messy emotions that always comes with being a parentified child, particularly a parentified child that has to be responsible for their younger sibling. And then when she realizes that the interruption is actually merited because her sister's actually going through something, then the desperation kicks in. Then the one track mind of Evie, Evie, Evie comes in. I don't think you need as many repetitions in italics as you have, but I Do think that her mind should be fixated on that in the emergency situation. But if I don't see the layers of messy emotions, I don't connect. It's actually something that I talk about in my writing Emotions and relationships class that starts in June this year. So if anyone is interested in hearing more, check out the link in my bio to sign up.

[Bianca Murray]

Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you.

[Carly Waters]

All right, here we go. So I don't think we're starting in the right place. I agree with everything Cece said. And, like, an example of what CC was talking about was I feel like she needs, like, a strike on her record or when she sees the cop behind her or when she starts running red lights, she has to be like, I. I can't have another ticket, or something like that. Like, that's a way you could help work on what Cece was talking about. But I think we need to start right in the kind of, like, switch of the world. I actually think we're telling too much. I think we're telling too much about the relationship between. Or we're revealing. I shouldn't say we're telling. I think we're revealing too much about the relationship between the sisters and. And this kind of, like, witchy element to her kind of ability to hear from dead people. So I want to go back to this book, this One Love of My Afterlife by Christie Greenwood. And this is a great example. I think the, like, British writers do this so well where they just, like, throw us into the situation as it's happening. So I. When I read this query letter, I thought it was going to start where on her 18th birthday, Margaret dies in.

A perfectly planned school bus accident.

I think we need to start with this school bus accident. I have no idea why we're starting with this chapter other than to establish again the relationship between the sisters. But there are so many other ways to do that. And I actually felt like most of this went on too long. Again, all really interesting, but in terms of how do we captivate an audience as quickly as possible to commit them to the hook, to get them on to the page turning, to get to the next scene, I think we stayed in all of this too long. I think we stayed in the car too long, and I think we stayed on the steps at the ER too long if we're gonna keep this. But as I said, I feel like we need to be starting with the school bus. And it could be, again, I don't know in the book what happens for.

Them to be on the school bus.

Because I imagine she wouldn't be on the same school bus as her sister because her sister is, you know, separate from her. So, you know, again, probably goes to a different school or Anyway, as I said, I don't understand the logistics because I don't have the synopsis in front of me about how we would establish the relationship. Could be like she's on the school bus and she's thinking about how she has to get home for her sister and then all of a sudden gets, you know, again, the school bus accident happens. Like that's how quick I think this should move. And that's why I'm kind of referring to this one, because I think this book does a great job of getting us to the afterlife faster. So that would be some recommended reading there.

[Bianca Murray]

Thank you, Carly. Okay, before we move on to our next query letter, let's first hear from our sponsors.

[Carly Waters]

As usual, let's dive right into planning.

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As you guys know, I travel for.

Conferences and events so I can meet.

And greet with you all.

And I'm off to the Greater Pittsburgh Festival of Books in late May to see my client tear DeWitt and gearing.

Up for France as soon as the kids are out of school.

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[Bianca Murray]

Okay Carly, you're up. Can you please read us your query letter?

[Carly Waters]

Right Dear Bianca, Carly and Cece, I truly appreciate all the time and expertise.

You give to your podcast. Your advice on curiosity, tension, dominoes falling and specificity have directly impacted my writing.

I've been savoring each episode of the.

Podcast, dreading the day I finally catch up. Recently you had me screaming with excitement.

In my car while listening to a.

Books with Hook Book's critique for a picture book. Picture book writing is my passion and I'm excited to share my story with you all.

I'm looking for feedback on my children's.

Picture book rocking rita it is 950.

Words and written for children ages 4 to 10.

Our main character, Rita, embodies the energy.

Of Pinkalicious combined with the perseverance of Ada Twist Scientist and the interiority of Piper Chen Sings. Rita is an exuberant 7 year old who wants to be a rock star. She's always in motion, moving and grooving with the beat of the world around her. She's finally old enough to take classes at Rockin Rookies Music School.

She soon realizes this is not a solo adventure.

As more students join her class, Rita hides deeper inside herself despite her natural musical talent and outgoing nature. Unable to make sense of these new.

Anxious feelings, she looks to her grown ups for help.

When their solutions don't fix her problems.

She looks to herself.

She comes up with a sparkly solution that helps her make way for the music. The story is about giving children the space to solve their problems and letting.

Them sit with some discomfort in the.

Hopes they will find their way through. I'm a first grade teacher living in a suburb of Chicago with my husband and our six year old daughter, dreaming for the day I can move back to the city. I have a degree in Early Childhood.

Education and a master's in Teaching and Learning.

Recently I've been using all my creativity to help my daughter design presentations aimed at convincing my husband of the many.

Reasons we need a dog.

This story is inspired by my musical daughter and the reality that her solutions to her problems are always more fitting than mine. Thank you so much for taking the time to read and critique my manuscript.

I look forward to more insightful podcast episodes.

You you are all truly experts who know your shit.

Best Regards, Megan T. PSC this winter.

I stumbled across a Grinch hat in a local boutique and would love to send it to you.

Happy to order two more if Bianca and Carly want one.

[Bianca Murray]

That's hilarious. After in this episode, Cece actually donned her metaphorical Grinch hat. I think we may take you up on that offer. We may need them. Okay Kali, how many words was in there and what was your take on that?

[Carly Waters]

All right, so the author graciously put.

It in for us at 390.

I'm not sure if that includes kind of the preambles, but that's what they told us. So let's start with the age range. So 4 to 10 is pretty broad. I would look up your comps and probably narrow it a bit more to 4 to 7. At age 10 most kids are reading chapter books because this is kind of a musical specialty book. Again, you could broaden it a little bit. There's like an educational section at the back to kind of teach kids about music. But if this is just kind of for pure entertainment, I would probably keep.

This to the four to seven.

All right, So I think we need to focus a little bit more on making this a bit more kid centric and less adult centric as a write up. You know, on this show, we talk about hooks all the time. It is literally all we talk about is hooks. You need a hook with a picture book as well. And I actually think you're kind of burying this a little bit because you're focusing a little bit more on some of the potentially more educational elements of it or, you know, again, what she's learning from it. And that is something I do not think we need to highlight. I think we really need to focus on the fun kid elements of this. And we also need to focus a little bit more on the hook because to me, like, there isn't really a large conflict and we need picture book conflicts as well as we need conflicts in any other story. The conflict to me is potentially just that. Again, she realizes it's not a solo. It's not a one to one class. Like, to me, that's not a conflict. You kind of. Somebody walks into an environment, they realize it's not what they thought, what happens next. And then da da, da, da, right? And so after that you go into, you know, she's anxious, she's looking for her grown up, she's working through her feelings. A really great book, which you don't have as a comp, which I think that you need as a comp. And everybody on YouTube will be able to watch me hold this up. Is box Attacks. This book, Box attacks is a really great comp.

It's by Kim Smith.

We love this book in my house because the concept of this one, and it's got a little cute little portmanteau, like box of text, like architects, but with boxes, cardboard boxes. And the concept is these kids go to this school where they all have these special skills and two girls want to be the boxitect of the group, meaning they're architects but for cardboard boxes. Like, and then we get into the conflict of, oh, well, there is already a box, a tick in this class. So, like, can there be two box.

Of techs in this class?

And they go through the conflict of having like a little science fair. And then they learn at the end, oh, actually there can be two box attacks in the class. So we learn, like, there is A learning element. And obviously there's, like, how to share and, you know, two people can be at the top, not just one girl and things like that. There is learning that happens, but it's really driven through the hook and the portmanteau of box attacks. And so I think you're just leaving a lot on the table here, metaphorically, in terms of where to kind of pick at the hook, you know, or where is the conflict. So I would really suggest checking out jacket copy for books like Box to Text, because I think it will help you figure out how do I make this more kid centric and a little bit less adult centric, because I do think it's there. And obviously, we'll talk about the story.

A little bit later.

Like, for me, the conflict could be. And knowing what's in the pages, this is kind of a different book, but based on what you're pitching, like, is it a bad performance? Is it. Somebody takes the place in the recital that she wants, you know, she wants to be leading guitar, and somebody else has already lead guitar. So how does she navigate that? Like, that's the kind of conflict that we need in the story right now. It's just kind of like walking into a room and it just not being what she expected. To me, I just. I think we can do more because I do think it's. It's a really, really interesting hook.

The author bio is a bit too.

Long, so, you know, I made some notes about what you could potentially cut. But all in all, I think this is really interesting, and I think you have something really fun here.

[Bianca Murray]

Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece, handing it across to you.

[Carly Waters]

As a premise, I really like it. It's really sweet. I did feel that. I mean, she's framed as outgoing, right? And yet she's struggling with the social aspect of it. And I get that traits change. I get that you might be outgoing, especially at that age, and then, you know, depending on the situation, you might be like, well, I can't be outgoing anymore. But it wasn't quite clear to me what happened. Like, something that has to be massive enough to justify it because. Or else her. Her setup doesn't make any sense. Her setup as an outgoing, extroverted person. I also think, you know, you need to look. And this goes for all storytellers that write for all ages. Please go to your query letter. And please look for lines that are vibes and not plot points. Like, I'll give you examples. She looks to her grownups for help. What does that mean? How does looking to the grownups for help, looks like. And then you have. When their solutions don't fix her problems, she looks to herself. What solutions? How do they not get fixed? Did they make the problems worse? What does looking to herself mean? It's so internal. It's so vibey. And I think, you know, this can work in many different situations in life, but not for a query letter. For a query letter, we really, really need clear plot points so I can visualize the story in my head. It goes all the way to the solution. She. She comes up with a sparkly solution. Listen, sparkly solution sounds like so much fun. I want a sparkly solution for my life, but what does it look like? So I can get invested, so I can picture where the book is going, so I can go, oh, my God. So Rita is going to try to, I don't know, go to the center of the stage during the talent show, even though she didn't get that part. And she's going to try to play the instrument and bring her own instrument. And is that going to disrupt the whole thing? Like, I don't know what it is, right. Like, I'm making this up, but I want to visualize it. I want to feel invested and really anxious on Rita's behalf because. Because I get anxiety, as everyone knows. Also, yes, I deserved the Grinch hat comment. I. I will totally admit to that.

Love it.

[Bianca Murray]

Okay, Carly, be handing it across to you now. Will you tell us what was in those opening pages?

[Carly Waters]

Absolutely.

So we start with our main character, Rita.

She is excited.

It is her first day of Rockin Rockies. She's very excited.

Her mom is driving her over.

She's wearing her Beatles T shirt, and she's really hoping her instructor knows who Beatles are. She sees the big room, is very excited by all the instruments, and then more kids kind of start walking in, and she starts to get a little bit overwhelmed. She goes back and forth of, like, how to deal with it. Runs back to kind of talk to her mom. Her mom brings her back in. She gets nervous and then sees a box of costumes. And then she said, that'll make me feel better. Goes to the costumes, gets a pair of really funky sunglasses. Elton John esque is what I was picturing. Some funky sunglasses. Puts them on and starts to kind of rock out. And they get into a jam sesh, and everything is good.

[Bianca Murray]

Awesome. Carly. I can already anticipate cece saying, we need to know what she's expecting. Expecting what is going to happen while she's in the car. Thinking ahead to the day so that when it doesn't meet those expectations, we know what she was expecting. But let's hear what you have to say.

[Carly Waters]

I was going to start with some boring stuff like format. You know, I'll say I'll save the juicy stuff for Cece. So you wrote this in a kind of a full prose poem style. Essentially, you wrote this as like, this is what's happening in this paragraph. You know, there's line breaks for dialogue, which again, reads very story like. But when we get to thinking about how this becomes a book, we actually have to break this up into either.

24 or 32 pages.

And you might be saying, carly, why are you saying 24 or 32 pages? That is how picture books are laid out based on the size of the big reams of paper that they fold and fold and fold and they cut. And then there's room for the front matter and the back matter. So that's kind of what we're working with. Picture books are either 24 or 32 pages. So I would love to see. I love the way that this came together because as I said, it looks.

Very prose poem ish and it was very readable.

But we get to the submission stage, you have to start to think about, how do I lay this out so that the agent, the editor, whoever I'm working with, you know, can again see how this is all going to be laid out. You also only had one illustrator note, and I think that you could include some more and I'll kind of explain it as we go through our notes. Illustrator notes just do the job of, like, relieving the pressure of the writer to spell everything out, because you have an illustrator to kind of convey story with you. That's one of the reasons why royalties for picture books are split equally generally between the author and the illustrator, because equal work has to be done for both parties to kind of communicate and bring this to life. So I think you can probably rely a little bit more on Illustrator notes. But again, we can talk a little bit more. Or if I don't get to it, you guys can look in my notes for our Substack subscribers and check out what I'm thinking in terms of the Illustrator notes. So those are kind of the technical elements to start with here. The next thing I wanted to say is, I think your writing is excellent. Really, really well done. I think a lot of writers, when they think about pitching a picture book, they think like, oh, have to rhyme. Like, we need those little rhyming couplets. Your use of internal Rhyme is so good. Really subtle, makes it read really smoothly. You know, keeps us engaged. It will keep kids engaged. It's well, so your internal rhymes. And again, Substack subscribers will see my notes on. That was really excellent. I started marking them down so you.

Could see it here.

So, for example of one of my Illustrator note ideas is the following. So you say Rita's eyes were wide as she looked around the room.

It was a musical treasure vault. There were so many choices.

Instruments were sprinkled through the room.

The walls were plastered with posters of legendary artists.

A giant bin overflowed with sequins, boas, and rockstar accessories. To me, that's a perfect paragraph to really think about what has to be said in writing and what could be communicated by illustration. If it was me, I would think, let's take out the line.

The walls were plastered with posters of.

Legendary artists because we're going to see the posters of legendary artists. So then we don't have to say she was looking at pictures of famous artists when again, we have the visual of her in the room seeing that. So that's just an example of where we can pull back on words to.

Let the visuals do the work. All right.

So another example of a line I really liked was her body heating like a kettle. I love that. Like, to me, I can having small children of my own, I can see when they get mad and they kind of like, rattle like a little kettle, you know, getting angry, getting frustrated. So I thought that was really well done. Her body heating like a kettle. I really loved that. I did really like the teacher. I think their interactions were really strong. And again, there's a lesson in here which is, you know, real rock stars always feel nervous before their first performance. He said.

Really? Rita asked, standing up.

Really, you got to adjust your volume buttons. Your levels are off. Turn down all that fearful feedback, turn.

Down the doubt, turn up the belief.

Turn up the excitement. And I just thought that was like, you know, again, really vibey in line with, you know, everything that was happening with the music. Obviously it was a teaching moment, but I thought that one was kind of right on note to bring it back to a musical reference for. For what you wanted to do here. One thing I was a bit confused about was why didn't she bring her own instrument as potential comfort? And then maybe she has to decide on the way to the lesson. Do I bring my guitar in with me?

Do I leave my guitar in the car?

That will make me feel more comfortable. But, like, this is the version of me that I want to be, you know, bold and trying new instruments. So I thought we could have maybe played around with that a little bit about what is her comfort instrument and whether she brought it with her or not. The thing that I think we need to do some work on is the ending because we brought it back to the parents where it's like, mom, that was epic. She screamed with pride as she leaned her head against the window watching the clouds roll by, tapping her fingers to the rhythm of the ride. I think that we should stay in scene with the children. Again, coming back to, like, this is for children. This should be a bit more children centric. There should be more child centric. I definitely think we need to be insane with the children having a bonding moment with the fellow musicians as opposed to focusing so much on Mr. Trevor and the mom. As I said, as my personal note, I just know that kids are most excited about books where they feel like it's kid centric. And so I think we're just putting a bit too much emphasis potentially on the mom and. And Mr. Trevor. But again, I know they have to be in the scene because we can't just have children running around doing School of Rock session. I get it, but I think it's really strong. Like, I think the writing is really good. We just, again, have to figure out.

Some of the layout stuff.

And I think at the end of the day, more workshopping is needed. And again, figuring out the format. I don't think it's ready to submit, but there's something really, really strong here.

[Bianca Murray]

Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece handing it across to you.

[Carly Waters]

I thought it was so adorable. I will not spend time echoing Carly's notes, though I agree with all of them. I will borrow her words and say that I hadn't realized what the issue was. I wasn't able to verbalize them like Carly did. But the whole kid centric thing, I felt it too, when I was reading. And now I'm like, oh, that's what it was. And I'll give you an example. So when she's, you know, feeling anxious, there's a line that reads, she did Monday mirror performances and she always sang in the shower. Her family had watched her rock and roll since she was a baby. Why was this so different? Why was she stuck? My read? And I want to be very honest and say that I don't read a lot of picture books. My read is that feels like a very adult way of framing things. The internal questions, the zooming out lenses. To be like her family had watched her since she was a baby. Like that, to me, is something that the mom would think, not the child. Right? Like the child isn't processing themselves from the outside. It could be something like, mom had always told stories that. That she rocked since she was a baby. Right. That might make a little bit more sense. But the whole why is she stuck like that to me is borderline adult therapy speak. And so I think that it might make more sense to reframe it. But to Bianca's point, which, Bianca, you did not guess correctly, the author did a really good job of establishing the fact that the expectations didn't meet what she wanted. That was well done from the beginning. So kudos to you. That's really awesome. And I do think it's adorable. Like, adorable. And I'm so curious, Like, I am ridiculously curious about why an otherwise outgoing child is struggling in this setting. And I wonder if it's because she's used to being the musical one. Like in all the other settings in her life, she's the musical one and everyone's in awe of her talent. But this is potentially the first time where everyone is musical, and that causes her to feel insecurity. Kind of like being a big fish in a small pond versus a small fish in a big pond. Because that is really interesting and great fodder for psychological acuity. So if that is the case, I would definitely weave that in and just up, to use the teacher's words, just up those dials, because I really like that idea.

[Bianca Murray]

Well done, Megan. Right. So for those of you who would like these notes, they will be in our Tuesday newsletter, a substack newsletter that goes out on Tuesday. You will see all the line level critiques there. And then next week's interview is with a podcast listener, Jessica Guerreri, who had her work critiqued on books with hooks, and she takes us through the whole process of how that work evolved after the critique on books with hooks and all the great stuff that happened to her after then. And that book is between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. So listen out for that one too. Carly and Cece, thank you so much. We'll be back again in two weeks.

[Carly Waters]

A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the fulsome picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at PS Literate Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts. Do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our Substack Newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more. You can find it at theshitaboutwriting substack.

Com.

That's the shitaboutwriting.substack.com and that's it for today's episode.

[Bianca Murray]

I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.

[CeCe Leera]

Hi everyone, it's Cece here. If you're a fan of the podcast, then you know that one of my most common notes on the Books with Hook segment is about writing emotion. And that's because the best stories are the ones that make readers feel. But as a storyteller, you know that pulling that off is hard work. It involves not only the obvious skill of writing emotion really well, but also mastering writing relationships effectively. Since those emotional beats involve the protagonist's relational connections, the best stories are also relationship driven. That's why I'm so excited to announce that I'm teaching a four day class called Writing Emotion and Relationships starting on June 18th. Over the course of four days, we'll cover over 10 hours of content, including active versus passive emotions, how to leverage emotions and relationships into tension, showing versus telling, how to create chemistry between characters, emotional calibration and roles for various characters from love interest to antagonist, and so much more. And my favorite thing, this course will feature an interactive component. Everyone who signs up will have the option of submitting a scene from their work for a chance to have it critiqued during the course. We did this in my Starting It Right class in March and if you were there, you know it was a scene. Smashing success. If you'd like to know more, check out the link in my bio on Instagram. I hope to see you there. Come prepared to take lots of notes.