← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Leveraging Surprise and Disruption
00:47:18
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
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- [00:03]
Cece Lehrer
What's up, everyone? This is Cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled. And I wasn't surprised at all, because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So, personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with hooks and of course, in my submissions inbox. But at the same time, I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean. It's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible, to make agents crave it, to make agents work. Want to read more? That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course. Starting it. How to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure that your story's beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the best one, the best place to start and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things. When it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way. How to balance exposition and mystery. How to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory. And what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline. Most of all, I'm going to show
- [02:25]
you how to make readers readers.
- [02:27]
Want to turn to Chapter two? Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepared to take lots of notes. We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques. Plus a super fun surprise that I can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.
- [03:04]
Bianca Murray
Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no one tells you About Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary. Hi everyone, welcome back to another Bookswith Hook segment. As per usual, we are diving straight in. Cece, will you please kick us off?
- [03:28]
Cece Lehrer
Let's do this. Dear CeCe, thanks for all you do on the podcast. Your advice along with the lovely Carly Waters and Bianca Mouret has whipped my query into shape and now I'd love to know if it passes muster. I chose cece because of her fondness for dark, unsettling novels and complicated sister relationships. My book explores abandonment, parentification and how control can curdle love into something predatory. Welcome to the Overwoods, where your deepest darkest fears don't just haunt you, they hunt. The Whistling Dark is an 80,000 word horror with a romantic subplot. It blends the generational trauma found in Andy Davidson's the Hollow Kind with the isolation from Johanna Van Veen's My Darling Dreadful Thing. It will appeal to fans of the old Gods of Appalachia podcast and anyone who suspects the scariest monsters can be the ones who say they love you. Bowie Burnham doesn't believe in spirits. She fled Kyle and the West Virginia hills years ago, trading small town superstitions for the ordered life of a Chicago accountant. But when her sister, now the host of the paranormal podcast, invites her home, Bowie can't refuse. Family runs deep in Appalachia, even when it's fractured and Amber is the only kin she has left. Amber has promised six lucky fans a weekend adventure at Etta Rake's farmhouse. Legend says the mother turned monster sews her victims faces shut and traps them in the Overwoods, a forest stitched over ours like a second skin. But Bowie knows the truth. The woods are where the drunk hunters and foolish flatlanders get lost. And Widow Rake? She fabricated the damn story. That monster is no more real than her mama's promises to stay sober. At least that's what Bowie tells herself until the whistling starts. Soon the scarecrows don't stay where they're staked, fuel lines get slashed and guests vanish into the fog. Bowie suspects Amber is manipulating events for Internet fame, but when the first body appears gutted like a deer, the Overwoods stop looking like folklore. Even Kyle the drug Bowie could never quit begins to believe. As the trees close in, Bowie realizes the Overwoods doesn't attract monsters. It makes them. And something has been waiting to bring her home. By day, I'm an award winning political journalist who writes about energy issues in Appalachia. By night, I'm a horror superfan and freelance fiction editor. When I'm not writing, you can find me hiking, baking, or wrangling two wild but wonderful tiny humans.
- [06:11]
Bianca Murray
Awesome, Cece. Thank you so much. I always struggle so much with the pronunciation of Appalachia. I used to say that, and then David Joy corrected me and he was like, it's Appalachia. And
- [06:23]
Cece Lehrer
people say it in wildly different ways. So I know that. And then depending on your accent.
- [06:28]
Carly Waters
Right? Yeah.
- [06:29]
Cece Lehrer
No, so the thing. It's kind of like New Orleans. Some people say New Orleans. People say New Orleans. Like, it, it varies wildly. I know this because I. In my school, there were people from, like, all over the states. Right, Right. Like literally every part of the states that you can imagine. And because everyone was an expat and I. I remember being like, I thought they were different places when I was really young, like when I was 7 or something. I'm like, these are different places because they sound so different. And everyone just says it differently. It's really weird.
- [06:55]
Carly Waters
Well, I'm sure we'll get comments on the YouTube channel below, like, showing us exactly like Appa Leysha or Appa Latcha. So spell it out for us, guys. Make sure we don't embarrass ourselves.
- [07:05]
Bianca Murray
But you have to live there to tell us how to pronounce it. You can't be telling us how to pronounce it if you don't live there. This is for people who live there. All right. Okay, so, Cece, how many words was that? And give us your take on that.
- [07:17]
Cece Lehrer
So that was 411 words. Okay, so if you're on YouTube, you might have seen me suppress a smile when I read the very, very first paragraph. That paragraph. That's just for the podcast. This person would obviously not include this paragraph on a real query letter. And the reason is because I received a very. I'm just going to say it. A very mean DM the other day about how everyone, Everyone has been talking about how we read these paragraphs addressed to us on the podcast. And it's so cringe that, you know, they feel so bad for writers who have to, like, gush about us before we will critique their work. And anyway, it was a very long dm, which I did not respond. I don't respond to most DMs. I don't have time. And any the reason why I suppressed the smile is because my first reaction was like, oh my God, do people think they have to write the very nice paragraph? Like nobody has to write that very nice paragraph. I think they do it because they want to. And then my second thought was, why am I overthinking this person's rude dm? In case anyone out there thinks that they have to gush, you really don't. It's so appreciated because kind words are always appreciated. We are human beings. But I promise I speak for Bianca and Carly when I say you do not have to write nice things about us if you do not want to. It is not going to influence our judgment of your pages. Anyway, I had to say it. I had to say it after reading that and going like, apparently everyone's been talking about it. And I'm like, why?
- [08:42]
Carly Waters
Listen, I assume that there's a Reddit out there about us somewhere that I've never been to and I never want to go to it ever. So I'm sure there are people saying stuff about us that we just don't need to care about, and that's fine. And that's just the Internet.
- [08:55]
Bianca Murray
If you want to influence my decision on anything, send pictures of raccoons as part of your query letter and that will highly influence me. It's probably the only thing that'll influence me. Otherwise, it's really not okay. Carry on.
- [09:08]
Cece Lehrer
Oh my gosh. Anyway, so let's start from the top of the actual query. I really like the welcome to the Overworlds, where your deepest darkest fears don't just haunt you, they hunt. It's very short, and while I do like metadata first, if it's like a very, very short salesy line, it can be really interesting. So I thought the person did a really good job here. I looked up the sales for the two comps, the Hollow Kind and My D Darling Dreadful Things. My Darling Dreadful Things sold really well. It has 18,000 copies on BookScan, obviously an average. The Hollow Kind not so much like it did. It did okay, but it didn't do. I don't know that it sold well enough for you to use it as a comp. So I would maybe take a look and maybe find a different comp, just because it's important that your comp have really strong sales, but otherwise I understand editorially why you picked them. I looked up the books. I haven't read them, but I looked them up and it makes sense As a reminder, no Bookscan does not capture all sales. I feel like people know this already because they listen to our podcast. Okay. One thing that I'm really. I feel very strongly about, and I think that I really wish the author were here so I could ask her. A protagonist returning home is a wonderful place to start a story. Wonderful because there's the contrast of who you used to be and who you are now. There's also the pull of the regression that comes with being around people who are a part of your childhood. Like, you made a whole new life for yourself. Right. But then when you go back, there's always that. That pull of, like, who I used to be and the way people see me and the projections and the traumas. So amazing. However, you are using a verb. Invites her home. Her sister invites her home. That I personally found a little. Like, it's almost like it leaks the tension a little bit. An invitation is something that you can refuse. An invitation can arrive at any time. It doesn't feel sufficiently compelling to bring her home. I feel very strongly that there should be a reason why she essentially can't say no. Like, yes, it should be a choice, but it's one of those choices that, like, I have to go back. You know, Like, I have to or else. And we'll get to this when we talk about the pages, but the fact that it's so hard for her to go back, like, just don't go. You know, the fact that she has a choice to simply not go because it could be any other time and she can see her sister potentially in a different scenario. I think it leaks attention a little bit. So I would reconsider. The verb choice is making it seem like a casual request. If it's intentional. If you want to be a casual request, by all means, keep it. But the subsequent lines seem to suggest she's being compelled home, not just merely invited. Like, she can't refuse, you know, only kin she has left. Like, why now? I guess that's my question. The other paragraph, the one that starts with Amber, made me think this was dual pov, but I don't think it is. And so if it is, I really want clarity on that. I think it's really important to be super clear. I'm confused about how. How far into the story does the body appear? Like, is it the inciting incident? Because if so, that might be coming too late in the query letter. I mean, if it's not, then I'm just wondering, like, do we have enough plot points with causality to Lead to this. Like, if it's the climax, do we have enough? I was confused about order. Like, when exactly this happens. Here's what I know. I always like to do this after I read a query letter. Like, what do I know about the story? The protagonist left her superstitious home to lead, like, a normal life. She returns home. She goes on her sister's podcast retreat, thinking the supernatural rumors are nonsense, but then a dead body appears, and she begins to believe the woods are actually haunted. And then what? Like, what is her goal? Why can't she just leave the woods? Like, to me, that's the biggest question. You know, they're in the woods. Why can't they just leave? This place is haunted. This place is messed up. Go home.
- [12:48]
Bianca Murray
There has to be, because there's a bear there, and Cece's in the woods trying to make friends with the bear.
- [12:54]
Cece Lehrer
Yes, well, and then if the bear is there, it becomes a different genre. It becomes a cute story, like a children's book where CC is friends with the bear. So, yeah, I kind of wanted to know if I'm being super honest. I thought that. I think there's a lot of potential in this story, but I thought that this query letter reads. It reads like someone heard the story from someone else and then wrote it, as opposed to the writer wrote it. Either that or the writer didn't want to give us spoilers. And so they spent a lot of lines on mood and atmosphere. They're really great lines, but didn't really drill down to the plot as much. So it's one or the other. These are my two theories right now because there were just so many vibes. And I've noticed that when you ask someone to share. Tell me about the story, and they haven't actually read the story, they focus on the vibes. They don't focus on the plot. So, yeah, those minutes.
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Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you.
- [13:54]
Carly Waters
All right. I really liked this query. Like, it was very vibey, but when you actually drill down, I do actually think there's. There is a healthy amount of plot, but it's also a longish query letter, and there's a lot going on. I mean, you know, Cici's already hit a lot of the high notes, but I'll start at the top with my notes. The Whistling Dark. I like this title. I'm a little bit worried. It's not that memorable. And I had. You know, I haven't done a deep dive on. On Goodreads or anything like that to See if there's other tit like it. But just a reminder to everybody to check your titles on Goodreads just to make sure, you know, there's nothing else out there that's recent. A lot of times people will ask, you know, there is something out there like my title, what do I do? Then I will usually say, you know, is it going to be published into the same market? Meaning was it a fellow thriller author or horror author published by Big 5 in the last five years? Then we can't really use that title if it is YA versus adult. And you know, there's a very clear delineation between markets and who we're focusing on. Potentially you can use the same title if it is a self published title. Again, that's a different market. So often if there is a self published title then you can use it if you're pursuing trad because these are two different markets. So you see what I'm saying about how we kind of make those decisions. So just some things to think about. So I like it. Again, is this the most memorable. Okay, next up. I really, really liked a number of lines here and you know, I. I really wish we could go back to the days where we didn't have to talk about AI every effing podcast. But we do and we have to. Like one of the things I think that is going to be so crucial for people to stand out in today's market is how we can demonstrate that there is such a personal touch and such a command of language that all of the human authored books are going to stand out amongst AI. I choose to believe as an optimist that as an agent my training has led me to believe that I will know when things are written by humans. I think there's some lines here that suggest this is so human authored in such a wonderful way. Like this line. Anyone who suspects the scariest monsters can be the ones who say they love you. So powerful, so good. Love that line. Another line. A forest stitched over hours like a second skin. Beautiful. Love that. And then the whole, you know, she fabricated the damn story. That monster is no more real than her mama's promises to stay sober. Love that. Like there's so many beautiful lines here. And I think in this era of how do human authors. I hate that I have to say that. How do human authored books stand out in this marketplace? It's going to be things like this where there's just like you're demonstrating your ability to be full of craft and just brimming with craft and Voice. And these are the things that I'm honestly just trying to be honest with you guys. Like, these are the types of things that I'm going to be looking for as an agent to make sure that I feel the kind of energy being passed from the author to me via this query letter. That's how I've always imagined query letters. It's like the energy, you know, that the author creates through their manuscript put into the query letter as a sales tool, you know, as it comes to me. But it's really an energy transfer, you know, it's an energy transfer to the author. To me, when I pitch the book to an editor, that's another form of energy transfer. And, you know, again, I'm getting woo woo on us. But yeah, I really believe that. And all of these things and the way that authors choose to use language here is going to be just such an important tool and how we kind of make sure that we, you know, just stay true to our craft. And that's why we're all here. And I know there's a lot of fear out there. And I just kind of wanted to highlight some of the things that I am looking at because I think this was really well done.
- [17:21]
Bianca Murray
Wonderful, Carly, thank you. Okay, Cece, we are now discussing what was in those opening pages.
- [17:28]
Cece Lehrer
Okay, so we have the protagonist in a car with Caroline. She is returning home. She sees scarecrows, like the first, the second, the third. And Caroline's like, you could have warned me about the nightmare scarecrows. Caroline asks her, how long has it been since she's seen her sister Amber? I mean, the protagonist responds, you know, besides the funeral last Christmas. So she arrives home through interiority, we know that they had very different mothers, the protagonist and her sister, because their mom got sober once her sister was born. Her sister's much younger, and so they were raised by opposite versions of the same woman. So they arrive. It's very clear she does not like her brother in law. And yeah, so the front door opens, the sister's there. She's feeling like this was a mistake. There are many, many references to this is a mistake, she shouldn't be here. And she's really thankful Caroline's there because she's saying she would not survive the weekend without Caroline. So, yeah, that's what happens.
- [18:27]
Bianca Murray
Okay, great. So will you let us know if you think the author's starting in the right place and your take on that?
- [18:33]
Cece Lehrer
I mean, so. Okay, the first line is brilliant. The first scarecrow appears five miles outside Welton. It's Specific. It's intriguing. It's interiority. It's great. It's like the protagonist observing through her own unique lenses. Love it. The second line just is like, to the point of. Again, we read a lot. To the point of it being, like, almost showing off. Because it's so good.
- [19:04]
Bianca Murray
You know?
- [19:05]
Cece Lehrer
Like, congratulations to the author. The imagery is so beautiful. She stands in a yellow hay field beside fence posts that sag like drunk old men. Like, beautiful, beautiful. When I, as an agent, read a first paragraph that has such beautiful imagery and beautiful writing, what it does to me is that I forget I'm reading for work. You know, I just forget. All of a sudden, I'm reading for fun. All of a sudden, I'm in my bed at night with my book, and I'm being transported into a different world. And I feel trust. Because that's what it comes down to. It comes down to me feeling like, oh, my God, I can trust this author. You know? I'm in the hands of a really talented storyteller who has really engaged their imagination in this story, which means that I can engage my imagination in the story. So I'm wowed by this person's writing. I want to now be annoying and picky. I want to make clear this is very good. Okay, Your pages are very good. So, so good. But now I'm going to be annoying and picky. Coming back to what I said in the query letter, she clearly does not want to be there. There are plenty of references. Not too many. Just the right amount. Smart references baked into the scene. Good. But there are references to, she doesn't want to be there. So then why is she there? You know, it can't just be a mere weekend, a mere invitation. It's two plot convenient. Oftentimes, when I ask storytellers what's the reason she's there? Why does she have to be there? They gave me this look, and I can translate the look. The look is saying, because I need her to be there so the story can happen. That does not cut it. I'm so sorry. That is not compelling enough. You have to come up with a reason why she is actually there internally. For her psyche, right? For her family dynamics, for her power dynamics. Like that is essential. So that's something to consider as well. And then the other thing, and we talked about this. It was a few months ago. She, the protagonist, is with Caroline in the car. She and Caroline are very close. And Caroline asks, how long since you saw Amber? And she responds, besides the funeral last Christmas? That is not Believable. When the protagonist invited Caroline, Caroline would have asked your sister, how long has it been since you saw her? Like, this conversation would have happened at a different moment. It would not be happening.
- [21:15]
Carly Waters
Or if they're best friends, they would know exactly what's going on in each other's life. Like, they would know the last time was the funeral. Because that's common sense between their friendship 100%.
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Cece Lehrer
And that is actually a really good point, because if she doesn't know, they're not that close or they are that close. And this is the one thing the protagonist is actually withholding because it's the big taboo subject, Right? And then there would be interiority of being like, is she gonna think there's more to the story? What? Exactly.
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Carly Waters
Or it's like, oh, she did come into town and I had coffee with her, but I didn't tell you, and now I feel guilty about that or something.
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Cece Lehrer
Exactly. Or even like, what must she thinking? You know, what must she be thinking? That I don't share this one thing about my sister and I share everything else with her. So it just feels plot convenient. And again, I empathize because you need to share information, but dialogue is not the way to do that, because it feels forced, it feels artificial. If it's dialogue, that wouldn't actually be happening. Just share that through interiority. Interiority can do the heavy lifting. That is what is the magic of books. I also felt that there were a few missed opportunities for curiosity seeds. So, for example, Caroline says, you could have warned me about the nightmare scarecrows. Is she withholding something else from Caroline? Something else about the town? If so, this is a really good opportunity for a curiosity seed, because she could think. Imagine what she's going to do when she finds out. The other stuff I'm withholding, but not in that. Like with your brilliant writing. There's just opportunities here, and I did highlight them for you. Our Substack supporters will see. This is one of the best things about my job, where I can be like, ooh, what if you added something here? And then the author does all the work and all I have to do is come up with the idea? It's really cool. I love my job. I also thought that you did a really wonderful job of conveying the larger culture, the world's mood. There's a line that reads, welton's the kind of place that remembers who your mother was and who she wasn't. The type of town where folks say they're praying for you. What they really mean is they've already gossiped your business to half the county. That zooming out and conveying the larger culture. Brilliant. And again, it's baked into a scene like, so awesome. So, so awesome. Still, the fact that she's returning home makes even less sense to me because if this is the kind of place she's returning to, why is she going? You know? And I honestly don't think it's a heavy lift of a fix. I think if you know the reason, if you in your head know, you can actually weave this in in a way that won't take up a lot of your time editing. Because I know this person's ready to query. Now we're asking people, right? Like we're asking people like, where are you in the process? And this author has shared, she's ready to query. In terms of the quality of the story, I 100% agree. I do think this foundational motivation of going home needs to be ironed out. And you can do this. I honestly think you can. So, yeah, I thought it was really, really good. I did wonder. This is a bit more of a change. We have her arriving home and it's kind of like a no big deal. Not internally, but like externally. She arrives home, her sister's ready for her, the brother in law is there, they're talking, and I, I'm not sure that this is the right setup. Like, I almost wonder, what if she arrived home, but for some reason, maybe a mix up or something, her sister wasn't expecting her. She walked into her sister and her brother in law having a conversation that they might not want her to see, for example, and it could be something else. But I wanted like surprise and disruption. I wanted it to be a little bit less neat. It's like she was expecting to arrive home, her sister was expecting her to arrive, and it was all very pleasant and lovely. And yes, her interiority has layers, but I just felt like it, you know, you really want your beginning to leverage surprise because it's one of those things that if you look at all the great books out there, there's an element of surprise in the linear beginning. Prologues are often the exception. Different conversation altogether. So, yeah, I thought again, very, very good. Excellent quality. I do think that you could tinker with these elements if you want to elevate it even further.
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Bianca Murray
Thank you, cece. Especially so important in those opening pages and not even something that affects the rest of the story, right? Because like you say, if the author knows why the person's coming back, you just make it clear in the opening pages, it's not a huge change. And I've learned from my own work that sometimes the smallest tweaks. A line here, a line there, a paragraph here. Are the ones that make the biggest difference. And when you overdo it. So I had my beta reader, my writing group, look at something, and they had a critique about a scene I wrote. And so I then completely overdid it. I added three pages, and they were like, what the hell is this? We just wanted a line or two. So it's a constant calibration, and.
- [25:45]
Cece Lehrer
And the line doesn't even have to give full clarity. You know, as long as the interiority is saying, she has to be there, she has no choice. The explanation can actually come later, but it can't just be missing altogether, or else I'm like, just go home, lady. If this place sucks so much, you know.
- [26:03]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. Best to leverage it as a curiosity seed. Anything you can leverage as a curiosity seed, do that. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you.
- [26:12]
Carly Waters
All right. Lots of great notes already so far. I'll chime in here based on the pitch. I was really excited to read, and I think the per. The first paragraph really delivers. And Cece already pointed out what a great line it is. I was really disappointed by the beginning of the dialogue. I was like, coffee tastes like burnt cardboard, man. Like, that's. That's a saying we've heard so many times. I really wanted, like, something with Midwestern flair, something Appalachian flair, like, you know, something from Chicago. Like, we just. It was so vibey up to that moment. And then I read. Read burnt cardboard, and I was like, that's kind of a line I heard before. So, you know, can we be more original there? That's just a perfect opportunity for us to really start to kind of get into the voice of the character, Right? Because so far, it's very clear you are a very voicey writer. But now we're in the dialogue, right? This is where we're starting to get, what does this character sound like? So that's really, really important. The next thing I had questions about was, who is Caroline? Like, to my knowledge, she is not mentioned in the pitch. I kind of went back a few times. I was like, okay, don't see Caroline mentioned at all. Assuming she's a friend, you know, really close friend, as we said. But then once we get to the point where they're having conversations and dialogue, where they seemingly don't know that much about each other, if they don't know the last time she talked to her Sister, how close are these people? Then I was thinking, oh, is Caroline somebody who is a fan of the podcast and just wants to come to this, like, retreat? Okay, that's a different vibe. Like, no idea who Caroline is. So we just need a lot more clearer markers here. And it could be both. It could be a friend who also loves the podcast and wants to come back for the weekend. But again, as Cece's already pointed out, which I'm not going to belabor, this is all the stuff that we need to figure out in interiority, which is crucial. So I just think there was some opportunities on the first page to really kind of drill down on what you're trying to accomplish here. And I just pointed out, too line I really liked. You know, a year ago, Bowie would have bet real money that Ghost roots would become a hobby her sister abandoned after college. She still can't comprehend how Amber amassed thousands of fans willing to pay for a weekend at the old Rake House. I loved that. That was very establishing. I would have liked it on the first page. Just so we, again, can kind of understand a little bit more of the stakes of this, because I just felt like the dialogue, as I said, leaves something to be discovered, and if we can't nail that dialogue, then we need to move that piece up. And I've made notes throughout the pages of. You know, I was like, this is a really good line. This is a really good line. You know, some. The. The. Something that really stood out to me was some dialogue here. So you sure this is it? Caroline asks. That's the Rake House. Bowie doesn't add the rest. Brilliant. You know, it's not like, the rest meaning, like, what happened in the Rake House. Clearly, there's a whole story here. Really, really liked that. That was like, such an. Such an example of restraint that, like, so well done. So there's. There's just tons of tons of great lines here. But again, I made another note on page five that says Bowie's mouth twitches into a smile. Thank goodness for Caroline. She'd never survived the weekend without her. Who is Caroline? Like, at this point, I'm like, is Caroline her girlfriend? I was starting to get, like, sapphic vibes. Like, are these. They. Are they roommates? Are they partners? And that, you know, that's. It's her person, and that's why she brought her. Again, I have no idea who Caroline is to. I would love to know who Caroline is, because I really think that would help a lot in these opening pages.
- [29:33]
Cece Lehrer
I just want to say if. If the author's listening, and she's going to clarify who Caroline is. Please, dear God, do not namesplain it, okay? Do not add a line. Caroline, my best friend. Carly's not suggesting this. I'm just want to make very, very clear. Caroline, my best friend, sat across from me. Please, dear God, do not do this, okay? Do not do this. Find a subtler way to do it. I am sure you will, because you're so brilliant. Perhaps she could compare how her sister Amber sees her versus how Caroline sees her and be like, it's so interesting how your best friend that you made as an adult sees you differently from your sister who's known her whole life or whatever.
- [30:09]
Bianca Murray
I don't know.
- [30:09]
Cece Lehrer
Point is, please, dear God, no namesplaining, people. No namesplaining. You go to jail with namesplaining.
- [30:14]
Carly Waters
Yeah. Even I was thinking of a way to kind of subtly work it in because I think Caroline's driving. If I recall, there could even be a line about like. Like, whenever we go on a road trip, Caroline always drives something to the effect of, like, showing their closeness. Or again, you can kind of elaborate on the last time we went on a road trip to Blank or whatever.
- [30:32]
Bianca Murray
Or Sweet Caroline comes on on the radio and she thinks. And they start singing along to it, and they're like, we've always sung this since the third grade when we went on that school trip. You know, that tells you they've got a lot of history together. They've known each other since the third grade or something like that. There's really organic ways to build that kind of thing in. Okay, so before we move on to Carly's query letter, we first have a message from our sponsors.
- [31:00]
Carly Waters
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- [33:43]
Bianca Murray
okay, Carly, will you please read us your query letter?
- [33:47]
Carly Waters
Dear BIANCA, Carly CC, your podcast, newsletters and online classes have been an invaluable resource in my quest to become a published author. Thank you so much for everything you do. You know why I'm laughing? If you have not fast forwarded through this episode, you know why I'm laughing.
- [34:03]
Cece Lehrer
They've ruined it. They've ruined it. I love when people for me, I
- [34:07]
Bianca Murray
really want everyone to know that not one of the three of us picks the query letters that we read on the show. We have incredible podcast assistants. Alicia, Rosanna. They actually pick it. So it's not. It's not that nice words are working on our egos, but.
- [34:23]
Cece Lehrer
Oh my God.
- [34:24]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, anyway, Sorry, Carly. Carry on.
- [34:27]
Carly Waters
On we go. Okay. The forest is full of monsters, but only one of them is sworn to protect Yuli. My dual POV young adult romantic fantasy, Eyes so Crimson and Cursed is complete. At 92,000 words, it combines the menacingly magical forest of where the Dark Dark, stand still by A.B. pornick and the rom com banter of this Vicious Grace by Emily Theed. All her life, 17 year old Yuli's parents had two ironclad rules. Hide your magic and never go into the forest. Breaking either is a death sentence. When her ploy to infiltrate the warlord's forces goes awry, exposing her magic, she's willing to risk being eaten by monsters for a chance at reaching the castle where her parents are imprisoned. But the worst thing the sentient wood steers into her path might be a human one with crimson eyes, the mark of blood magic. Just like the warlord who tore her family apart. Raised inside the forest by his immortal ancestor, Cayde is determined to gather enough magic to rid himself of his humanity and earn true belonging in the only place he's ever called home. He just has to survive a crossing. But every attempt has failed. When he encounters Yuli. Teaming up could be the answer to both of their problems. She has the healing powers he needs, and he has destructive magic she wants to use against her enemies. Enemies Yuli can't trust a blood mage. But when Cayde swears an oath to protect her, she reluctantly agrees to join forces. As they're pursued by the Warlord Lord's relentless mage hunters and stalked by bloodthirsty monsters, Yuli discovers that Cayde has his own reasons to hate her foe. She hopes their growing feelings may be the final push he needs to pursue revenge with her. But thanks to their crossing, he's close to reaching his goal of attaining immortality. He refuses to leave the forest, forcing Yuli to choose between love and rescuing her parents, a task that could be impossible for her to take on alone. I'm an audhder with lifelong love of stories, particular fondness for swords, sorceries, and slow burn romance. The fight scenes in my book are informed by my years practicing Kenjutsu, including living at a dojo in Japan. Eyes so Crimson and Curse will be my debut novel. This query is 410 words.
- [36:36]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Great that they gave us the word count there. So what is your take on this?
- [36:41]
Carly Waters
All right, I looked up the comps because this is not a category that I am super familiar with. Both of them looked like they were on point, recently published, you know, all of the things that we look for. So I thought that was great. When you said rom com banter of this vicious grace, I got a little worried. I was like, oh, is she trying to comp a rom com? When this is a fantasy? But it is a. It is a fantasy. It is categorical. Categorically correct. You're just kind of saying it's the rom com that I'm comping to. So all of that made perfect sense to me. There's a lot of things that I just really like. You know, I like the line, but the worst thing the sentient wood steers into her path might be a human. What a great line. I absolutely love that. I thought was just so well done. The one thing I couldn't quite wrap my head around was this concept of the crossing. I wasn't really sure if this was like a physical crossing or a mental crossing or this was like the body crossing over from, you know, mortal to immortal. I wasn't super clear on that, so I would focus on making that more clear for the reader. The stakes, I think they're really high. And at the end of the day, it's kind of like love or immortality, family or love. And they also seem like stakes that you can't go back on. Like, once you've made your decision. It seems again, based on this pitch, that we can't go back on the decision, which makes for very, very high stakes, which I really liked. So I thought that was. Was absolutely well done. The last paragraph, the, the author bio paragraph, also really loved it. For the sake of this podcast, I'm assuming you kind of kept the biographical details Light for your future pitches, I would include where you live. And again, if people don't feel comfortable doing that, like a region is always nice. I got the sense that you don't live in Japan anymore, because including living at a jojo, it just kind of. I wasn't clear on if you're still in Japan or not. So I would just try to make that more clear. It's just. Just information that we like to know about writers and just for no other reason, just other than it just kind of grounds us in place and just helps us get to know you a little bit better. So for this, as I said, not being one of the categories I work on a lot, I was able to follow along. I enjoyed it. Again, I thought that the stakes were high enough. The only thing I might suggest moving around is it takes us until kind of the lower half of the first body paragraph for us to understand that the parents are in prison. I might move that up higher because in the first line, you said, all her life, 17 year old Yuli's parents had two ironclad rules. You get the sense that, you know, they are, you know, a family unit. And then like lines later, parents are imprisoned. I don't know if there's a way to kind of incorporate it at the top. All her life, 17 year old Yuli's parents. I don't know. You know, I don't know. Somehow in that first line, if you can fit in that they're imprisoned, I think that would just help with the stakes early on because it clearly affects her motivation, which I think is very important to establish much earlier. But that's really my notes. I think there's a lot of great writing here.
- [39:30]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Kali. Okay, Cece, your turn.
- [39:33]
Cece Lehrer
Just want to applaud the note about moving up the parents being imprisoned because it's buried right now in the paragraph. And, like, that's a really great plot point to highlight because it gives her the motivation like any reader could get behind. Yes, she is going to have to infiltrate the castle and she is going to have to put herself in danger to save her parents. It is something that makes us connect emotionally. So don't bury that because you have a great plot. I thought that this query letter was on the longer side. And a little, to be honest, there's a lot of excess fat. I did highlight the lines or substack supporters will see this that I felt were moving the story forward. There are many lines that are not. It's true that you need lines to establish who each protagonist is. So, you know, a line about her and a line about him. Just, you know, establishing their sense of place in their world with hints of power dynamic. This is true. But, like, we're talking one lines, maybe two. They're way too many, focused on things that are not moving the story. Here's. I have two big picture notes and they're actually connected. You're promising me dual pov, which means that in order for this to be successful, I have to be equally invested in both POVs. A great dual POV novel is one where when I'm in Yuli's pov, I'm
- [40:56]
like, oh, my God, Yuli.
- [40:57]
Yes, I'm invested. I'm rooting for her. And then her POV switches to his pov. What is his name again? Kate. Kate. And I'm like, oh, man, I miss Yuli. But immediately I'm like, oh, wow, now I'm really invested in Cades. And now I'm like, Kate Kade. Kate. And then I go back to Yuli, and it's almost like you're choosing between a brownie and a cookie and you love them both.
- [41:17]
Bianca Murray
Both.
- [41:17]
Cece Lehrer
You know, they're both so awesome. The way you're framing this, it makes me think, like, it's Yuli's story. Like, first, there's way more in her quest. With specificity. His quest is very vibey right now. But more importantly, the major dramatic question is all focused on Yuli. Yuli has to choose between love and rescuing her parents. First of all, I don't really think that's a choice because this guy doesn't love her if he's not willing to help her like this. He's an awful person. Are we supposed to root for them? I think we are. And I'm not going to root for this big jerk who's not going to help her. You know, like, if he has a really big reason why he can help her, then I kind of need a sense of that. So it's. This is why I'm saying my two notes are connected. Like, I'm more invested in her POV than his based on the query letter, which I would not be concerned about. But if the pages reflect that, then that's a problem. And then two, your. Your query letter needs to have both major dramatic questions for both POVs. And if they have, if they're in conflict, you need to be prepared to give me a reason why I'm still rooting for them if you want me to. So I don't know. This is also not a genre I read in widely. So you are very welcome to ignore my notes. Anyone is always welcome to ignore my notes. I loved the line. I have a particular fondness for swords, sorcery and slow burn romance. What a great line. You know, the author paragraph can be really simple. The author paragraph is not going to make or break any query letter because it's about story. But sometimes writers find a way to like infuse their own personality and great writing in a way that's so tight and it's amazing. Like, I loved it. I thought it was really good.
- [42:48]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, what was in the opening pages?
- [42:53]
Carly Waters
All right, so we start in Yuli's point of view. We start with kind of a reinforcement of some things that we know, which is the rules that the parents had for her. Hide your magic, never go into the forest. And she said breaking the first had ruined everything. She was determined to obey the second. We start with her kind of foraging close to the forest for different herbs and things like that. She's kind of at the wood's edge. She's kind of metaphysically feeling some energy from the forest, but trying to ignore it while she goes about her duties of picking some clovers and things like that. As she brings them back, she heads back to the place where she seems like she works in a medicinal capacity, healing. Believe it's kind of like soldiers. And then we find out towards the end, I think it's think it's the opposition soldiers that she's also healing. But basically she's forging, putting together some sort of like potion of some kind. And then we find out that it will be poisonous to induce vomiting and diarrhea. And because she's trying to escape, presumably so that, you know, other people get sick and she can kind of take off. And so she's not going to follow the rules of staying out of the forest because she is going to take off. And so kind of has an interaction with the cook. The cook, I believe, takes some of the potion and then she kind of takes off and sees some kind of ominous soldier type of people in the woods. And that's when she takes off.
- [44:20]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Okay, what was your take on them?
- [44:23]
Carly Waters
All right. As you can see, by the way that I tried to explain this, I am not clear on a lot of these details. You know, a lot of it. I'm like, I think this is what happened. I think that's what she was doing. I think this was the intention. I could not tell you definitively some of these things. You know, sometimes as an agent, I think. Did I not sleep enough last night? Did I not have enough cups of coffee today? Like, am I not dialed in enough to kind of fully understand what's going on? Or OCC is showing me she has two cups of coffee. Yeah, I made one cup of coffee and then my second one right now is tea because I'm like, how many cups of coffee can I drink before 11am so this is an example of, like, I think the writer was trying to be, you know, maybe. Maybe they're trying to think, like, how do I elevate this? Or how do I save some suspense for later? But I really strongly feel that the first page really just genuinely seems like a normal day in this person's life. Right? It's like she wakes up, it's morning, it's early, sun's rising, she's foraging. Why is this day not like any other day? I don't find out until much later, oh, what she's foraging for things that are poisonous. And that's the whole point, is that she's foraging these specific things, trying not to get caught.
- [45:33]
Bianca Murray
It's. It's.
- [45:33]
Carly Waters
I just felt it too subtle to be perfectly honest. And it's, again, not that anything's wrong with it, but I felt like I read it closely and yet I still again, feel like I'm not fully sure of what's happening. So I would just, you know, if there's anything we can just like, tighten a little bit. Tighten, tighten, tighten the screws just so we can really make sure that everybody fully understands what is happening. One of the things that I think could really help here on the opening page is if you allude to the concept of how does she feel about this being the last time she's going to pick plants in this location? How does she feel about the last time she's going to watch the sunrise from this vantage point, like something to the illusion of, like, this is the last time she's doing this because she knows what she's going to kind of cook up, you know, pun intended, on future pages. So something about that I think would help. Even if it has to be she's up before the sun because she doesn't want to get caught. It just felt like, oh, we're waking up with a normal day in this character's life. So a little bit of like, why are we waking up a little bit earlier than normal? Why is this the last time she's going to forage in this location? You know, is this the last time she's going to Feel this metaphysical pull from the forest because things will never be the same, right? It's like, why is this the day that's going to change everything? Why is, you know, why are things never going to be the same? And I think that's just, you know, really, really crucial here. You know, there is a lot of danger that eventually happens. You know, we know that there is a war going on. And the reason that she works this medic tent is because people come injured. So. But this concept of danger again, on the opening single page, if I was to read that first page, I would have no idea of what was happening next. And obviously the point isn't to just trauma dump on us on the first page, but I honestly probably would have just put that first page down and been like, okay, this character having a normal day in their life. You know, do I need to read about that? But. But, like, oh, there's a war going on. There's warlords, there's danger, there's bombing. There's just so much to come. And I just didn't feel any sort of that dangerous energy on the first page. What I really liked was the cliffhanger on the last page. Really loved that. I thought that was great. So I think there's a lot to work with here. I think this is a really interesting story, but those are just my notes.
- [47:42]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece handing it across to you.
- [47:46]
Cece Lehrer
Okay, from the top. So the first line reads, the forest called to Yuli. And then a couple paragraphs later, there's a reference that says, despite knowing the danger, a part of her yearned to plunge into those unknown depths, referring to the forest. And then yet next line, another reference. Resisting the lure, a tug deep in her soul, she continued to forage. Meaning we get 3, 4 references to this pull of the forest. If this is an inexplicable feeling, I'm wondering, has she always felt it? Is it recent? Was she born with it? Has she ever shared it with anyone? Is there a practical reason for this feeling? Did it just start like you're emphasizing this untethered emotion that makes it seem really plot convenient? Why? Every great story leverages two things, threat and temptation. Because they are the things that leverage active emotions. Fear and desire. I am not threatened or tempted by this forest. I am not tempted to go into this forest. I am not feeling this pull, this tug, this lure. You are telling me she is feeling it, but I am not feeling it with her as the reader. In my opinion, no reader is going to. Not in this untethered. Way. And so you either have to move this to a different place or develop it in a different way, because you're just telling us there's this tug, tug, tug. And I'm like, I don't. I don't feel the tug. So temptation must feel believable to the reader so that they can feel it with the protagonist. In every great story, you're feeling the temptation with the protagonist. They're about to do this thing that's really risky and dangerous, and please don't do it. You're screaming at them, don't go. But you're also tempted as well. You also want them to go and to see what's going to happen. And that emotion is the emotion that makes us keep turning the page. So I understand what you're going for. I just don't think it's landing. I really like that you have positioned her as someone who is overlooked.
- [49:44]
Bianca Murray
She.
- [49:45]
Cece Lehrer
Because she is a woman, she is underestimated. You've established her sense of place in a really compelling way. You've tied it to her motivation because she's gonna go into the forest and she's gonna use underhanded methods to achieve her goals. So great. You did a great job there. I do think you over explained it a little bit, because in the first page you're saying, otherwise she'd never get the chance to treat some. Someone important enough to earn a promotion and access the castle. So to me, it's just like, like too much explanation. I would wait even a paragraph before you added that context. Like, make me go, ooh, why does she want to go to the castle? And then it's like, you know, because she needs, et cetera, et cetera. So I thought that that was really well done the her place in the world. But you could stretch it out a little bit more. Love the way that you write her emotions. She's comparing emotions like the guilt that she feels compared to the burden that she's been carrying. Like, very good. Warring emotions are a very important storytelling. There are some really interesting observations, like the fact that the porridge is thinner than it was even a week ago. Meaning scarcity. Scarcity is very important in storytelling. So again, really, really great lines. I did feel that, and I think Carly spoke to this as well. I was confused because it's almost like you wanted to have three different beginnings and you're like, I'm gonna put them all in one. And that didn't allow you to actually, actually develop one of the beginnings. Like, there was a lot happening. But I didn't sense that the number of plot points felt intentional and felt like there was causality. Like it felt like you were navigating to two different types of beginning. One that was more moody about the tug and the pull and the lure, and one that was more about her interacting with Cook. As a final note, I love that she's passing when she's interacting with Cook and you have all these messy emotions. Would she ever wonder, because Cook seems to really like her, Cook speaks to her with Terms of Endearment. Would her heart ever wonder, would she still like me if she knew what I was? Because I think that's a really vulnerable emotion that she would feel. And leveraging vulnerability, especially in a protagonist with such strong emotions and protagonism, because she is doing things, that is a wonderful way to make us connect with the protagonist. It's a wonderful way to make us see the innocence in her. And so I would. Again, if this obviously matches how she would feel, I would leverage that as well.
- [51:58]
Bianca Murray
Well, wonderful. Thank you, Carly and cece, as per usual for your critiques, we will be back with another Books With Hooks in two weeks time. For those of you who would like to submit, go to the Shit About Writing, go to the Books With Hooks tab and you can submit there. And you really don't have to say nice things to get onto the show. I promise you we'll pick you regardless. Okay, everyone, have a good one. Bye. Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency, and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.
- [53:00]
Cece Lehrer
What's up everyone? This is cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled and I wasn't surprised at all because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the voice volume of submission keeps increasing. So, personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on Books With Hooks and of course in my submissions inbox, but at the same time I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor, is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean. It's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible. To make agents crave it. To make agents want to read more. That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course. Starting it how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way I created this course after studying high hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure that your story's beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the best one, the best place to start, and the best, best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things. When it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory and what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline. Most of all, I'm going to show you how to make readers Want to turn to Chapter two to join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepared to take lots of notes. We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques.
- [55:45]
Plus a super fun surprise that I
- [55:47]
can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.