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- [00:00]
Bianca Murray
Hi everyone. I'm going to keep this short because I know how busy you are. I just wanted to let you know that the next beta reader matchup is almost upon us. Submit your 3,000 words by 12pm Eastern Time on the 1st of April and you will get your beta reader matchup emails on the 2nd of April. For more information and to register go to Biancamarae.com. Hi there and welcome to our show the Ship no one tells you about writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lera of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary. Hi everyone. Today's guest is the author of the novels Asking for a Friend, Waiting for a Star to Fall and Mitzi Bites. An editor of the M Word Conversations About Motherhood. A National Magazine Award nominated essayist and editor of Canadian Books website 49th shelf.com. she writes about books and read at her longtime blog Pickle Me this. She lives in Toronto with her family. It's my pleasure to welcome back Kerry Clare. Kerry, welcome back to the show.
- [01:18]
Kerry Clare
Thank you for having me back.
- [01:21]
Bianca Murray
It's wonderful to speak to you because Carrie, for those of you who are listening, is one of my favorite literary citizens. You cannot go to a book launch, a book signing, a library event without Carrie being there in support of other authors. So Kerry, thank you for setting such a good example for the rest of us.
- [01:42]
Kerry Clare
I don't know, you do the same, so that's really nice to hear. Thank you.
- [01:47]
Bianca Murray
Alrighty, so let's go into the book itself. I'm going to read a synopsis. I'm holding up the book for those of you who aren't watching on YouTube. The book is called Definitely Thriving. My copy is really battered, which is always a good sign because when I love a book, I live inside of this book. So generally when the book looks really pristine, it's like, yeah, but when it looks like shit, you know, I really enjoyed it. So here we go. Let me read the flat copy for you. After accidentally on purpose exploding her listless marriage by being discovered in bed with the next door neighbors, Clemence Lathbury returns to her hometown, resolved to build a life for herself that is good and substantial. To become the kind of sensible woman who won't be distracted by frippery and romance. It's supposed to be Eat, Pray, Love without the love part. But no woman is an island. And soon Clemence finds herself embroiled in neighborhood drama, beginning a crusade at the local bookshop, becoming adopted by a well groomed One eyed cat and being forced to admit her attraction to two very different men. Each a romantic lead in his own right. But how to choose? And never mind the complications of her quirky family. A novel about friendship, community and church jumble sales, definitely thriving. Is a celebration of people who are perfectly imperfect and all the love and support that's required for one woman to make it on her own. So there we go. All right, let us dive in because I have a ton of questions for you and I want to make sure we get to most of them. I am always fascinated by the genesis of the idea for a book because to me it's like what Julia Roberts said in Pretty Woman, that it can be a slippery little sucker in terms of. You listed a whole bunch of things in your acknowledgments and I'd like to break them down. So you spoke about how the novels of Barbara Pym were inspired for Clements. Can you speak a bit about that?
- [03:46]
Kerry Clare
Yeah. So I love Barbara Pym. Are you familiar with Barbara Pym, Bianca?
- [03:50]
Bianca Murray
No. So now it's somebody that I've had to add to my to be read list.
- [03:54]
Kerry Clare
Oh, lucky you, though. So, yeah, she's a mid century British novelist. She writes about spinsters pretty much. She never married. She had. Her biography came out a few years ago. It's wonderful. She had bizarre relationships. She had like strange fixations on really inappropriate men. I don't really know what was going on beneath the surface, but her personal life was. Was quirky and bizarre and so the, the characters in her books have arrangements that are just as unconventional and they're just so interesting. She has a really subtle touch. Sometimes it can seem like not a lot's happening. In her books she writes about communities. She writes about little English villages, London parish church communities, and then also workplaces. And it was. A lot of it was informed by her own biography, not necessarily the stories, although some of them. And they're just about really mundane things. In. I mean that as such a compliment. It's the stuff of this world. It's. It's the little details. It's like how annoying it is when someone steals your coffee in the office or how you want to drink out of that specific mug. She writes about communities and how difficult communities are and how weird and irritating people are. That's a story that I think she never ran out of material for. And I wanted to write a modern day Barbara Pym heroine and so that's what I attempted to do in this book.
- [05:16]
Bianca Murray
You've sold me on her because I'M actually quite a misanthropist. So people think I really like other people, but I. I really am a misanthropist. So which of her books do you recommend?
- [05:26]
Kerry Clare
I start with Excellent Women is my favorite of her books. And it's sort of the one that, yeah, is the best gateway. And that's about a woman in post war London who moves into this flat and she doesn't have her own bathroom. She has to share a bathroom with this crazy family that lives a couple that. That moves into the same unit. And a lot of her books are about other people living in close proximity to us and about how uncomfortable that could be. But also interesting people are fascinating. And Barbara Pym died in 1980, so she never got to see the Internet. But in her own life and in her books, her characters are so nosy. And they're always going to the library to look up characters and directories because they just want to know everything. They want data. And so that also is something that's really resonant for me. I mean, other people are irritating, but they're also fascinating and we always want to figure them out. And so that's a thread in her book as well.
- [06:19]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, hell is other people, but man, we'd get lost without them. Okay, so you also wrote about how the notion of artfully refusing the question of how to be a woman comes from Rebecca Solnit's essay, the Mother of All Questions.
- [06:33]
Kerry Clare
Yes. So I love Rebecca Solnit's books, and she's published these little volumes by Haymarket Press, and that's what the Mother of All Questions was. And I just love the idea of refusing the question of how to be a woman. And that specific essay is about motherhood. And the conversation about whether or not to have children is something that gets hashed out all the time. And I have to say, I very rarely see anything new in it. You know, like, it's just. It depends on where. Where the person having that conversation is at. And we all have different points of view, but there's something kind of reactionary about it, no matter where you're falling. And Rebecca Solnit just shuts the whole thing down and she's just refusing those questions and making her own narrative. And I found that really refreshing. And so I wanted to write about a character who's also refusing the question of how to be a woman. And, you know, I have children. I've been married for 20 years. I've had kind of a very conventional trajectory in some ways, but I can relate To a character like Clements who just throws out the baby and the bath water. She never has a baby. She doesn't throw out a baby. But you know what I mean, she. She doesn't. She's not concerned with that. And I kind of relate to that. I always knew I wanted to have children, and I feel like that certainty gives me a commonality with people who always knew they didn't. Like, we know our own souls. And so I was able to relate to Clemence's point of view quite easily. That way I know what it's like to know what we want and who we are. And even though her choice is different than the one that I've made, like that. That beautiful certainty about certain things is. Is really. It's maybe the only stability that she has because her. As the COVID shows, her whole life's been turned upside down. But there are some things she knows for sure.
- [08:16]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. So Cece always says on the podcast that writing is seduction and that you need to surprise your reader. They need to expect something, and then they get something completely different. Have you got your book? Are you able to read that excerpt?
- [08:32]
Emily Summer
Yes.
- [08:32]
Bianca Murray
Okay, so let me tell you, it's the. It's from. Six weeks have passed from the bottom of page four to, she hoped, which is at the bottom of page five. If you can read that for us, please.
- [08:46]
Kerry Clare
Absolutely. Six weeks have passed since Clemence's marriage exploded. Or more accurately, since Clemence exploded her marriage accidentally on purpose by being discovered by her husband, Toad, in bed with Larry and Lisa, the couple next door with a fondness for tanning beds and leopard print. And afterward, a normal person, a good person, would have been able to explain to Toad that it had been a mistake, a one time thing. Except it had been happening for months. Clements had even orchestrated Toad's discovery, timing it right down to the minute after she knew she'd hear his key in the door. A good person afterward would also have been able to promise her husband, it's not you, it's me, to tell him that she'd just been looking for something different, something to spice up their lukewarm love life. Except Toad was the problem in its entirety. Clemence hadn't even liked being in bed with Larry and Lisa, which, in its physicality was basically overwhelming and confusing, like having sex with an octopus. But having sex with Toad was so much worse. And maybe she'd always known. This is the part she feels guiltiest about. Clement still remembers the first time she'd gone out with Toad, walking down the street, arm in arm, listening to his grating voice and thinking, at some point, I'm going to have to find a way to get out of this. But she never did. Because it was easier not to. Because their bodies fit. Because Toad was tall enough for her to lay her head against his chest when he wrapped his arms around her. And she'd listen to his heartbeat, her fondness for its solid consistency more than making up for the fact that he never made hers leap at all. Or so she thought she hoped.
- [10:19]
Bianca Murray
That made me laugh so hard actually to read it again. It was just. This whole book is just hilarious, Carrie. But there was certain spot that I was just highlighting. So in terms of surprising the reader, we're so used to these narratives of a husband blowing up a marriage and the wife is the hard done by party, and then she has to pick up the pieces of her life and put it all together, that this comes as such a surprise. Not only that she's the one who's been sleeping with this couple, but she doesn't really enjoy sleeping with this couple, but that she also orchestrated her husband's arrival so that he could see this, so that the marriage could blow up. So is this something that you had seen this scene playing out as all along? Was it something that you planned it that way specifically? Or is this something that was one of the things that perhaps surprised you about your own character?
- [11:13]
Kerry Clare
I think it did surprise me. So I wrote this book in pretty much the order that it appears. And I began with Clemence's home. She moves into this new apartment that she expects to be like a cell. And she expects to kind of pay some pay a penance for this error that she's made that she orchestrated. And it turns out to be a beautiful, light filled room. And that's where the story began for me. And I went from there. And I was really under the influence of Kathryn Heine while I was writing this book. I love Katherine. He's novels and short stories. And what she taught me is that anything is possible in fiction. And that's why her husband is called Toad. In my book, anything is possible. People can be called Toad and you don't even need to explain it. And you know, the world is like that. Like, if you've ever walked down the street and looked around, like there are some bizarre characters walking about and. And some even banal bizarre characters, which is what Toad is. And so I just was like, you know what? Anything can happen. And so as I wrote, like, yeah, plenty of things surprised me and that was one. And like, why not do something a little bit over the top? She's exiting this marriage and yet she orchestrates a really dramatic exit.
- [12:24]
Bianca Murray
It was. It was excellent and it was surprising. So again, for our listeners, you know, set something up, have the reader expecting something, and then completely subvert the expectations. And this is what happens. And it happens on page four. So, you know, okay, whatever I'm expecting from this novel, I am going to be getting a lot of different things from what I'm expecting. And that is what Kerry does so brilliantly in her writing. So something I want to talk about as well is we're hearing all the time now these days. Hooks, hooks, hooks in query letters. There has to be a big hook. This meets that. You know, it's like an elevator pitch in a few seconds and you look at the back of your novel and pretty much it says, a novel of friendship, community and church jumble sales.
- [13:14]
Summer
That's the biggest hook of all.
- [13:15]
Kerry Clare
It's the huge plot line. I think this is going to be next church jumble sale novels. I mean, yeah, I'm not.
- [13:23]
Bianca Murray
Okay, so you're going, okay, this is not like a huge hook. Although there are crochet needles and there's knitting in jumble sales. But quiet, by all accounts, but also not quiet, because life is not quiet. Life happens in those moments, like you say, where some bastard steals your coffee mug at work and you just want to beat the crap out of him with it. And life happens when you run out of toilet paper and there's no one there to scream to to get the toilet paper. Life is not always right. It's not always these big plot. So can we speak a bit about this? Because you do it so incredibly well that your novels never feel quiet, they feel loud. How do you do that?
- [14:11]
Kerry Clare
It's the only way I know how to write. You know, I've tried to write novels that are a little bit more conventional. Like this novel was my attempt to write a romantic comedy. But then she starts, like, masturbating on page 55 because I'm incapable of following the. The way we're supposed to do these things. I don't know. It's the only way I know how to do it.
- [14:31]
Bianca Murray
I was waiting for you to say because I'm incapable of not masturbating, but it took it somewhere else. So, okay, this interview's already gone off the rails. Carry on.
- [14:42]
Kerry Clare
So, yeah, it's the only way I know how to do it. And it's hard to sell novels like this and it's hard to market them. I've had my previous books be marketed as something a little bit more packaged and conventional. And then people read them and they're like, what is this? One star on Goodreads. So that's not the best. But I am very happy with having found a home for this book at House of a Nancy Press. And, and I feel like they've done a nice job of dressing up my weird, quiet, ish novel as exactly what it is, which I appreciate so much. Because you don't want to sell a reader. I mean, we want to surprise our reader, as you say, but you don't want a reader to be thinking they're getting something really formulaic and then, and then, you know, there's, there's Toad and the Octopus sex on page four. I mean, they're. It's not going to end well for anybody. So it is the only way I know how to write. But I'm grateful that I have had editors and my agents sort of see the goodness in that and readers as well, like you. I don't know, I just think that sometimes we get a lot of advice about how to write, but we have to be true to our, our real voices and write the stories we are meant to write. Although I will say that the threesome with the next door neighbors is like, kind of like a hook. It's happening on page four, but it's on the back of the book. And all along people have said you need to write books with hooks. And, and I, I haven't really. And this is the first one that sort of has that. And I have that. That has caught people attention. There is something to hooks after all. I mean, maybe they're right. So this is my attempt.
- [16:10]
Bianca Murray
What you've said about packaging is so important because we as writers, what we have control over is writing the book of that we want to write, telling the story we want to tell. But then we hand it over to our publisher and then it becomes a product that has to be sold. And it's so frustrating, like you say, when the book is marketed as something that it's not. And then the reader feels cheated. And like my last book was a murder mystery, but it also had fantasy in it. And so many readers were pissed off about this magical family. Again, one star reviews. They were like, I was expecting a closed room murder mystery. I was not expecting magic. And you just like, it actually was there. It did say a magical family, but you're just probably not reading it properly. But it should be put front and center what this book is because it will find its readers who don't want regular plot lines, who don't want conventional characters, who are looking for this kind of character who reminds us why we're alive, the quirkiness of being alive. And I think it's wonderful that. That your publisher has done that for you.
- [17:14]
Kerry Clare
I have, and I'm really happy with my publicity team, like, and. Because it's hard to market books that don't fit into the conventional boxes and. And I really feel grateful to be working with a team who have been kind of creative about situating the book in a slightly different way and letting it shine. But, yeah, it's. It's tough.
- [17:31]
Bianca Murray
And I must warn you, people get very upset about masturbation scenes. But maybe it's just because my masturbation scene was an 80 year old woman in the Witches of Moonshine Manor. People lost their minds. People were like, I've stopped reading this book because that's the most disgusting thing I've ever seen. And I'm like, listen, if I could be 80 and not have such bad arthritis that I could actually be masturbating, I think that's a great thing. Yeah.
- [17:56]
Kerry Clare
I mean, I don't know what readers are thinking.
- [17:59]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. So come back to me and let me know, because maybe it's just an ageist thing. Maybe they don't mind Clement's masturbating because she's not 80. Let me know.
- [18:06]
Kerry Clare
That's terrible. But, yeah, everyone. Yeah, everyone.
- [18:10]
Bianca Murray
There was an article that was written for our substack, and it was a term that I've never heard before, which was very interesting. Actually, wasn't an article, it's a video by Danielle Gerard, who wrote the book Pinky Swear, and she discusses cleric, the deep marriage between plot and character. And she uses examples from normal people. The Goldfinch, Gone Girl, A Little Life, the Road and Never Let Me Go, to show why the most powerful stories unfold the way they do, because of who the characters are, not what the author wants or needs to happen. And this feels like this sums up your books. Have you heard that term?
- [18:54]
Kerry Clare
I never.
- [18:55]
Bianca Murray
Characterization?
- [18:57]
Emily Summer (returning for comps segment)
No.
- [18:58]
Bianca Murray
No.
- [18:58]
Kerry Clare
But is it cleric?
- [19:01]
Bianca Murray
So it's P, L, A, R, A, C. Is it cleric? Am I pronouncing it wrong?
- [19:09]
Kerry Clare
I don't know, but I understand. Okay. No, I. That is a term to something that I, like, know so fundamentally, but I didn't know there was a word for it.
- [19:18]
Bianca Murray
So, yeah, the marriage between plot and character. Because so much of who Clements is drives this plot. It's not the other way around. It's not. Carrie decided on the plot and popped Clementine's in. And there we go. Clemence had to run through the obstacle course of this.
- [19:33]
Kerry Clare
Well, and sometimes too there. I read books by. That are in development by authors who are also don't quite know what to do with their author. You can sense that they're, like, kind of trying to occupy them, keep them busy. Clemence really had her own momentum. Like, she wasn't doing anything that was especially monumental beyond her threesome with the next door neighbors, but.
- [19:54]
Bianca Murray
And climbing into cupboards with weird men.
- [19:57]
Kerry Clare
Well, yes. Okay. Yeah. But she. She knew. She just was very directed. And so I identify with that term a lot. I almost think about, like, comics with little dotted lines with people wandering around neighborhood and. And that's. I could draw the map for this book. And so, yeah, her character is the plot. And if she wasn't someone who was artfully resisting questions about how to be a woman and just doing her own thing, a lot less would happen in the book. That is the plot.
- [20:28]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. But also, isn't it insane, Carrie, that we're in 2026 and we still having to defend our choices as women, we're still having to write books like this in which a woman has to say, no, I don't want this. And this is kind of what I want. And if I want this, then I'm seen as the weirdo or as the outlier. That's a part.
- [20:51]
Kerry Clare
What I like about the novel is that she's not defending it like that.
- [20:55]
Emily Summer
Just.
- [20:55]
Kerry Clare
It goes without saying, because I've read that book before. When someone's making a case for their life choices, she's made that case. And so she's not making a case for that now. She is just living her life on her own terms. And I think that is fresh and interesting, and I hope that appeals to readers.
- [21:13]
Bianca Murray
No, definitely my point is that. That we need the counter to that story. That we need a book like definitely thriving to counterbalance all those other stories. It's. Yeah. You know, and it's just so refreshing. It's like a real palate cleanser. Okay, so your launch. Unfortunately, we cannot advertise your launch because this is airing after your launch.
- [21:37]
Kerry Clare
Okay.
- [21:37]
Bianca Murray
But those of you who follow on the substack will see that we are advertising Kerry's launch there. And we are hoping after the fact that a lot of the T snot, your community will be there for the launch because we love coming together and celebrating the literary community and we love seeing each other. Now you are having your launch at a special 25th anniversary showing of Bridget Jones's Diary. And something you've written there is all the love and support that's required for one woman to make it on her own. We see women making it on her own and we forget about the love and the community support that it takes a village almost for a woman to be able to make it on her own.
- [22:17]
Kerry Clare
So Clements is, you know, she's trying to live a sensible life. And that's a Barbara Pym heroine. They were the excellent women in the church who made everything happen, who did all the labor that made the world turn. And she resolves to become a woman like that instead of somebody who's in bed with the next door neighbors. And she thinks that if she doesn't engage with other people, if this woman remains an island, her life will be sensible and straightforward. And it turns out that that is just not possible. And other people keep creeping into her purview. And some of them are very attractive men, and some of them are less attractive, but somehow still oddly appealing men. And, yeah, she just can't get away from community and connection. And so that's really fundamental to the book. And, you know, I thought I was writing against Bridget Jones when I was writing this. There's a line where she says, my Bridget Jones days are over. Because in my mind, I remember Bridget Jones is like going down the fireman's pole and doing foolish things and making an ass of herself. And then I rewatched the movie last year and I couldn't believe how wrong I was. I mean, she does silly things, but she has such a fundamental sense of her own worth. And I had thought that Mark Darcy, Colin Firth, who liked her just as she was, I thought that was such a paltry offering, like. And at the time I'd seen that movie and I was like, oh, maybe someone will one day love me. And that was such a revelation. And I just thought that was pathetic. And then when I was older, reflecting, and then I rewatched it, and I realized it wasn't that he loved her, just. I mean, he did, and that was great. But she loved herself exactly as she was. And she doesn't want to compromise on. She ends up getting together with Hugh Grant's dashing character, but when he treats her like crap, she's finished with him. She doesn't want to lower herself. And I realized that that sense of her own value was really what was so beautiful about that movie and why it had resonated with me and that it actually was the kind of story I was writing with, definitely thriving. So it's not. It's. It's definitely connected and I wasn't writing against it at all. And I'm so grateful now to look back and realize that I had that movie because in the environment it came out of, it came out in 2001, which was just a dreadful time in women and media and pop culture. And so it was really refreshing. And the movie had less about her weight and the sort of self deprecatingness. I mean, the book's wonderful, but it also, there's. There's some elements of self loathing that got edited out of the movie and it was really refreshing. And so, yes, I'm very excited to celebrate the book with that movie, which, I mean, she has so many friends. I love Bridget Jones friends. They are her family.
- [24:51]
Bianca Murray
I know. That cast of characters are just incredible.
- [24:54]
Kerry Clare
And her cute little apartment and.
- [24:56]
Bianca Murray
And the blue. What was it? Asparagus. What? The blue she was trying to make.
- [25:03]
Kerry Clare
Yeah.
- [25:03]
Bianca Murray
And they still ate it. Yeah.
- [25:06]
Kerry Clare
Yeah. It's a great movie and I'm very excited that this event has come together. It's going to be.
- [25:11]
Bianca Murray
Last question before we run out of time is, I think you said you started writing this at the beginning of COVID so how do you think that, like the COVID and the bleakness of the COVID years sort of seeped into this novel or either didn't seep into the novel were like completely pushed to the outside because you were like, I've
- [25:30]
Kerry Clare
had enough of COVID I started writing it in 2021. So, you know, we'd been going through it for some time and I think I just wanted to write something that would make me happy. And, you know, thinking about the character's pro. Close proximity to other characters is maybe something that I was a bit nostalgic for at that point. Like, I hadn't been inside a closet with anyone for ages in 2021. And so, yeah, thinking about the way that our lives intertwine and overlap, I was missing all that. So that definitely is reflected in the book. And then as, like, you know, as. As Covid went on, everyone, including myself, began to lose our minds a little bit. And some people got very hard to be around and notions of community became really complicated to deal with. And I think elements of that realism, I mean, the realism isn't in the book. The book is. There's no Covid in my book. But just acknowledging how much friction there is when we're engaging with other people and how that is, like, a reality that found its way into. People aren't always easy to connect with. And I think Clements comes to sort of accept that in a way that I. It was a hard road, but, you know, came to realize just because there was friction in a community that didn't mean we were doing it wrong. Like, that's just what people and community are. And I think that is also an underlying message of the book.
- [26:48]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. As someone who's like, a chronic people pleaser, there was something so liberating reading about her because she also just walks into a bookstore store and he's just like, well, this is crap. You know, this is how we're gonna do it. And she just. It's just like, well, this is how I think we should do it. And so everyone's just like, well, okay, if that's the way you want to do it. And I. It's just so refreshing.
- [27:10]
Kerry Clare
Yeah, I want to be a bit like that. I think all the protagonists of books I write are people. I want to be like a little bit to have that kind of boldness. Although the older I get, I mean, the more the true. It's becoming so.
- [27:21]
Bianca Murray
So okay. Holding up the book again. Definitely thriving. We're putting it on our bookshop.org affiliate page. Get it there. Please support Carrie. I truly, truly there are. There are some literary citizens that I have met who deserve so, so much support, and I don't feel like they always get it. And Carrie is one of those people. So I'm going to be judging you if you're not getting this book and if you aren't dming me to tell me how much you love it. Carrie, thank you so much. Thank you.
- [27:51]
Kerry Clare
This has been a lot of fun.
- [27:53]
Bianca Murray
Amazing. Hi, everyone. Welcome to today's Author interview. Now, today's author, Summer in England is. Is indeed her real name. And yes, you are allowed to poke fun at her for this. She holds not one, nay, two degrees in Shakespeare and performance and is an actress, author, musical director, and digital content creator. When not blabbering on stage and writing off stage, Summer can be found doing quite literally 17,000 different ADHD motivated projects around her house. Watercolor painting, playing the decidedly evil pirate to her kids, morally gray pirate, reading while walking and not sitting still while watching When Harry Met Sally for the sixth time in one day. It's my pleasure to welcome Summer. Summer, welcome to the show.
- [28:46]
Emily Summer (returning for comps segment)
Hello.
- [28:46]
Summer
I am so thrilled to be here. This is honestly a dream come true. I'm a huge podcast head and this podcast in particular was so paramount in the beginning journeys of my writing. So it feels very full circle. Thanks for having me.
- [28:59]
Bianca Murray
Thank you so much for that and thank you for being on social media. You are one of the people I love to watch when I'm just having a really shitty day, which happens a lot of the time, and you just. You have this effervescence. And it doesn't matter what you're talking about, because for those of you who don't follow Summer, please follow her, because there will be times that she is speed knitting, like the kind of speed knitting that you imagine only demons can do, while she is, like, going off on some man who really needs to be taken, you know, in hand and sorted out. And while she'll be painting and all kinds of things. It's insane to watch, but it is. So it's the kind of content that we need right now, Summer. So thank you for that.
- [29:45]
Summer
Of course. Thanks for watching.
- [29:48]
Bianca Murray
And I feel like this book is a warm blanket of you. I feel like if we took you and made you into the fuzziest, warmest blanket that you probably would have knitted yourself, we would come up with this book. I'm holding it up. The Impossible Garden of Clara Thorne. Here we go. Beautiful cover. This is just an arc. Obviously, the finished one will look even better, but this was just an. An absolute delight. So let's start at the beginning. As we always like to say on the show, there are so many different roads and journeys to publication. How did yours come about?
- [30:25]
Summer
So mine was sort of like everything else in my life. I kind of fell ass first into it and was like, okay, great, I need to get my feet. Let's do this. Because I started telling stories on TikTok from my journal entries, and I had no intention of ever making it into a book or anything at all. And from there, I had several liter agents reach out to me. And I will be completely honest with you, I come from an acting world, so I knew what the essence of an agent meant. I did not have one. And when I was con, when I was looking at these messages and these emails, I was like, I don't even know what this is for. I don't know what the process of a literary agent does. And I kept passing on a lot of them because I just had no intention of doing that. And then I had my agent sort of change my life. She slid into my DMs, and the way that she spoke about storytelling really resonated with me because it was the same way I felt about storytelling of it wasn't necessarily because a lot of the other agents were like, let's strike while the iron is hot. I think that you have a big following. We can get this. And I was like, I don't really want to write a book because of money. I'm, as an actor, in the creek, in the creatives. I know that that's. That's a shallow pursuit. And. And my agent was just so earnest. And we met and I signed with my agent having not written a query letter whatsoever. And when I signed with her originally, what it was for was we were going to sort of work on this, like, rom com memoir, which is what I was doing on TikTok. But from there I sort of knew, okay, I have a deficit in my knowledge. I didn't have imposter syndrome, because everybody in the world is like, I did not have time for that. Other people will expect me to fail. I don't need to expect myself to fail. I did know that I was like, great. I just scored a literary agent with a great agency. And I don't know the typical process, which is where this podcast came in. And I learned about query letters and I learned about book proposals. And so that was what my agent and I first worked on together, was sort of putting together a book proposal for this rom com memoir. But as I was writing that, it was sort of like something unlocked in my soul. And I always had stories and scenes, and as you have seen on my social media, my brain is working 8 million miles per hour. And writing became a way in which so many stories began flooding out of me. And so even as I was writing this other thing, I was dreaming up another book. And that's actually where the Impossible Garden of Clara Thorne was born.
- [32:58]
Bianca Murray
I love all of that.
- [33:00]
Kerry Clare
That.
- [33:00]
Bianca Murray
Okay, so firstly, I want to break down something, because I don't want our followers to hate you. Because here's the thing what happens is we have people who have been writing for, like, 10 years, have been querying agents for as long, have never gotten anything. And I don't want them to be like, we already hate summer, so tell us, how long were you doing those TikToks? And I also want to speak a bit here about platform, in terms of starting a platform for the sake of enjoyment, as. As catharsis, as just doing something you enjoy as opposed to doing it to try and attract a literary agent, because that is not what you were trying to do. So take us through that a bit.
- [33:44]
Summer
Yeah. At the precipice of beginning Social media, it was really just an outlet for me because I am somebody. I am an autistic person who struggles like unmasking in front of people. It's just as something that I do. And posting online was sort of a form of really fun storytelling for me. I had no, I. I just liked filming a video. I had no care about engagement or followers. I still don't. And on top of that, though, the, the TikTok was sort of. My entire life has been storytelling. I went to school for Shakespearean performance. I've taught at the collegiate and the graduate and undergraduate level everything from, you know, English comp classes to Shakespearean pedagogy. So. So TikTok is sort of just the tip of the iceberg for the years I have sort of put into storytelling as a craft. And it's. When you, when you brought up, oh no, the followers will hate you. I always feel very. Because people are always asking, you know, how did you get into this? What do you do? And I'm like, I'm not going to grift off of my own success. It's not a replicatable situation. I'm not going to be like, and this is how you get a literary agent. And I think one of the reasons, you know, that was, is always important for me to note is like, the social media was always something that I happened to enjoy. If it went away the next day, I would be done. But it was really just sort of fate and timing that I got the agent. And I had been telling stories for, about or posting on TikTok for maybe like a year or two. I would do hobbit videos and storytelling and such. And that was the chaos that brought me to Clara.
- [35:24]
Bianca Murray
So for our listeners, Summer has paid her dues. I want us all to be very clear on this. It may not be a traditional route to publication, but it is years of learning, storytelling, years of acting. And I love that the TikTok came from just this place of self expression, of joy. And then it happened to lead to this. Okay, so once we got to the point where you knew which book you were wanting to write, it wasn't your rom com memoir. How long did that take you from start to finish?
- [35:56]
Summer
So I began drafting the Impossible Garden November. I did it for the nanowrimo. I was like, okay, I've. I'm. I'm gonna cheat on my project I'm supposed to be working on right now, which is this rom com and more. Because the last thing I wanted to do was write about myself. I was like, I I really find myself not an interesting subject. I can't imagine writing a palace myself. And so I started drafting it in November, and then I finished the draft. The. I was like, sort of 75% done with the draft by February because another publishing company was interested in. Because I had posted on social media that I was writing this sort of, like, cozy situation. And so I wanted to get that draft into them. I believe I got that into them by February. And then we went through edits with them, and it just wasn't the right fit. And then I edited through the summer, and then we went on submission in August, and it went to auction after that.
- [36:52]
Bianca Murray
Wow, that is incredible. So it's the. It's the fairy tale that every writer wants. Yeah. Okay. So you've just called your book sort of the Cozy, you know, and what I found so interesting about this book, and this is what we're seeing now so much more with genre blends, because it's kind of. It's sweet, it's cozy, it's hella spicy. And I know you've spoken before on socials on your idea of spiciness and other people's idea of spiciness, and I've killed myself laughing as you think it was one of your knitting things where you were like, this is not spicy. This is actually spicy. So I was. I was giggling at that. And we've got fantasy and we've got romance, so this is, like. And it's difficult to pull off, really. So tell us how. I mean, did. Did your agent even have to pitch this to this publisher who was interested? Or they just like, we. We really. We want this book, whatever the hell it is.
- [37:50]
Summer
So my agent did get reached out to directly by editors, and the first acquisitions editor that had reached out to her was actually at a different imprint with. With the publishing company that I ended up landing at with Hachette, and forever that it was a different editor entirely. And I think she worked with children's books. And then it just sort of like, editors were reaching out. And then we submitted the book proposal to the editors that had reached out. And then from there, it's. Yeah, it grew into an auction, which I didn't know about except through your podcast. And so I was. I was on stage. I was performing. Like, we were opening a show, and I was on stage getting emails back and forth from my agent of like, oh, here's. Here's this imprint who's in the auction now. And I was like, I'm. I'm. I. I'm not Supposed to know about this. I need to fade into anonymity.
- [38:44]
Bianca Murray
Oh, my God. And was that based on the proposal alone that they were all busy arguing over the book, or was it. I mean, because you said you wrote it from the first draft. Okay. And then you walked away from that, and then you revised. So what were they looking at at this point? Just the proposal or what? The pages you'd written already.
- [39:02]
Summer
It was proposal. And the pages I'd written, the proposal also included. I had, like, watercolor art in there, and I had marketing ideas. So it was sort of like. Like the proposal was a book package along with me. Package as well, because I sort of have my own, you know, weird thing about social media and being in the public eye that I can pitch. And then I also sent my. The. The pages along with it.
- [39:24]
Bianca Murray
Okay, all right, so that Very, very interesting. Okay, so that answers the question, because I was going to be like, are you someone who's always written. I mean, did you used to write for the stage? Did you ever write short stories or anything novel, like, until this or.
- [39:41]
Summer
No, no, I only wrote academic papers. My first publication was about research between the symbiotic nature of a pregnant actress in the 1800s and the audience. So there. There was never, you know, and I. I would doodle here and there. I had always been a storyteller in my family, so instead of, like, acting out plays, I would be the person sort of tasked with, okay, tell the scary story around the campfire. Insofar as a novel, I was like, I. Well, I can't be doing that. I'm. I'm. Look at me. I can't write a novel that's not in my wheelhouse. And. But then it was.
- [40:16]
Bianca Murray
So, yeah, I feel like everything's in your wheelhouse. You've just got to figure out, like, whereabout in this house it is. Right? So, okay, how much of this was plotted? How much of this was pants? When you sat down to write this, you knew exactly where we were going. You were like, shit, I don't know anything. Let's see how this comes to be.
- [40:40]
Summer
So the two things that were crystal clear in my mind from the precipice of this story was Clara and Hesper. And then a tertiary was Warty, who is the hedgehog in this? And I have always. And even. I mean, I wrote this book now two years ago. And even in drafting my other novels, it is always the same. I'm a very characteristic forward writer, and the only thing I really did was Rebecca Thorne's five Sentence method, which is an amalgamation of different types of plotting versus pantsing. And it's really just guideposts of at the 25,000 word mark, this beat needs to happen. At the 50,000, this beat needs to happen. And so I just sort of. I didn't even have those written out. I just knew pacing wise once I was getting to the 28 to 25 because I'm a chronic overrider still, I can linger for a long time. And. And so that was my, that was my main bit, was to just keep myself on track with the pacing. But other than that, I was really just sitting down in every day. I really like discovering and writing through the scenes. And because I had an idea, a strong idea of the character, I was never really asking the question of what would make the most sense in the the plot next, but rather what would Clara do? What makes the most sense for Clara to be doing next and to be discovering next. And that really helped be my guidepost throughout the entire writing process.
- [42:05]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, I couldn't help but wonder if your experience as an actor helped you shape out Clara, you know, in terms of backstory and childhood and all the rest of it, because she was so fully formed, but not just all the other characters. And so, you know, I don't know if acting actually helps with that kind of thing or if it hinders it. What was your experience with that?
- [42:31]
Summer
Acting helps. I mean, it is a priceless tool in my kit as a writer because acting, you know, every rehearsal process, you are building stories with people that you do not know. And writing as the author, whether I'm writing from first person POV or not, I am building a story with a reader who does not know these characters and I don't know these characters. And so in some respects, especially, you know, the supporting characters and such and what they mean to the main character. And I would say that it's almost like a one to one of the rehearsal process. And even in the. I think one thing that is so great for me as a writer that I'm really grateful for is that acting, it's so transient. It's in the moment audiences are going to take away. Some people are going to like it, some people are going to hate it. And no matter how much I care or how much I've worked towards this production, at the end of it, it is the acting of creating and then letting it be somebody else's story that I think has sort of uniquely prepped me to be like, great. And now the book is other people's now, and I'm really. I'm really grateful for that experience.
- [43:36]
Bianca Murray
See, that's the part that I hate the most because I'm an A type Capricorn control freak. And the part where I have to hand the book over and go, it's no longer mine. It's in the hand of my readership, it's theirs. Now, that is. Is really, really tough. But I've also heard from actors that they were primed for writing and the rejection, because there's so much more rejection with acting. And you got to learn to not take it personally, whereas writers, we all take it very personally.
- [44:04]
Summer
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Well, and it's so. Because you care so much. And I think in talking and being around actors, we all hope that you really like what we've done. We're not out here being like, yeah, I hope you hate it and had a very middling time. And then writing, you know, it's so. I think the thing. Not that I'm necessarily sensitive about, but I think I'm such. Because I'm a character person. Anybody who doesn't like the character, it's like, aw, that's like a real person in my brain rather than just like my work or the book.
- [44:37]
Bianca Murray
It's like, you don't love my imaginary friend as much as I love my imaginary friend. Right?
- [44:44]
Emily Summer
Yeah.
- [44:45]
Bianca Murray
There were these hilarious attempts. I'm going to read just a few of them. That was so funny. They added so much humor. So each chapter begins with an opening line attempt. So one is, the squirrel won the war and the wench ruined the carrots. Then she goes to. Most stories end with a happily ever after, but mine, well, it begins with one, then it crosses up. Fire blazed in the sky. Thousands of murky shadows flew overhead, breathing death into the realm. And so each chapter begins with this. You know, here's another one. With a cracked head and a broken heart, our hero found herself Rocky, lifeless and a little hungry with zero soul realizations. So I just really love the. The. The humor. Throughout the book, the banter was so incredibly funny. And that's where an ensemble cast can come in to kind of balance all those things out. I mean, it's the hedgehog, right? What's his name? Water? Warty.
- [45:41]
Summer
Warty, yes.
- [45:43]
Bianca Murray
Yes. Have you had experiences with hedgehogs?
- [45:48]
Summer
No, not at all. What was weird was I was working. I was in between acting contracts, and so I was working at a garden. I was working on a farm. And I thought to myself, it would be so great if I had, like, a hedgehog. Companion. I don't know why. All that I knew of hedgehogs was that they were adorable, but they were solitary creatures. And I've always related to that sentiment. And so that first chapter and sort of Clara, you know, Clara having a. Because her life is a. Is somebody else's hobby. Her hobby is writing, and she can't even do that. Well, that meshed together with Wardy was sort of just. I had this first scene in my brain while I was at the garden. Other than that, though, I. I have yet to see a hedgehog in real life. And I can't wait for that day to happen.
- [46:32]
Bianca Murray
Me too. Hedgehogs and raccoons. I'm living for that. Okay, so some other questions to ask. So this isn't like typical romance. So it's fantasy romance. What we're finding in, like, typical romance is that authors are being told that the love interest has to be on the page by page 5 or by page 10 or, you know, it has to come in as early as possible. Yours. We stretched it out a bit. We got to know her first before we got to that. Was there any pressure put on you by the publisher in terms of we need this early on, or is it a case of, you know, what writers are being told isn't necessarily true? You can bring in the love interest later?
- [47:16]
Summer
Yeah. I mean, I think one of the reasons why I was very. I'm just so happy to be working with the editors that I am working with is that they. They saw from the beginning what was important to the. To me and to this story was establishing Clara and establishing the world that she was going to have to le. And so I did sort of like a semi introduction of the. Of the love interest. But, you know, I think that. I think that this is a fantasy with a romance. But what it's really about is a fantasy and a cozy setting wherein a woman is kind of going through a big self discovery. She happens to fall in love during that process. And I think that that was something that my editors were. It wasn't even really a conversation. If anything, we. When we were doing the editing process, it was even more time establishing Clara, even more time spending time with her or, you know, with these other developed characters so that the. That the love felt earned instead of forced. And I really, really enjoyed that process.
- [48:19]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, that is amazing when you end up with an editor where you just have that synergy. Right. As opposed to constantly trying to. To write to specs that they're giving you. Okay, so let's talk about creating the town of Moss. Did you. I mean, you said that the original thing had watercolor pictures. Was that of the town? Was it of the. Of the characters? What did that look like?
- [48:42]
Summer
So I. And the watercolors are actually available. The. They're in pre order incentives and such. So there were two watercolors that I had, and one was Clara's cottage, which I just had in my mind. And, you know, I wanted to. To create a place that would break my heart to leave if I were a reader. Sort of very, very much like, you know, I think as anyone, the Lord of the Rings had a huge impact on me as a kid and as an adult. And seeing them leave the Shire was such a trauma. And so I wanted to create this feeling of home and this feeling of never wanting to leave this place because it is so special. And then the secondary watercolor was the town of Dwindle, which is the place that she ends up going and, you know, redefining what it means to have these feelings of home in multiple places.
- [49:34]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. As you were talking about her cottage, I thought about the scene where she hears the thud and she's in her room, which is essentially the attic, and then she's head down and bum in the air as she's trying to figure out if somebody's broken into the hat. And it made me realize how well you write physical comedy. And I feel again that that comes from acting, like understanding movements and the intentionality of movement.
- [50:01]
Summer
Yeah, I mean, acting, acting is a huge part of it. And also I think it's. It's like autism and neurodivergence as superpowers in writing as well, because I understand the world kinesthetically and I see, you know, I. That I just am seeing bit by bit. And writing was a very similar situation. And I think as a, as a reader, I always like setting. I like understanding where people are living and moving. And that comes echoes from me as an actor and as somebody who my brain processes the way that it processes. And so writing the physical comedy and writing the like, logistics of a spicy
- [50:38]
Bianca Murray
scene, we're getting to that, we are getting to that, we are building up to that. That I first want to just. The logistics of writing chasing a squirrel is hilarious because after my golden retriever died two years ago, I missed going to the park every day. And so I went there and I made friends with all the squirrels. So now I bring them hazelnuts and walnuts. And we've become really good friends on days that they don't bite me. And so I figured out that you can't get tetanus or rabies from squirrels because they've bitten me so many times. And just, you know, I could see myself running through the park trying to get this damn squirrel off my hand, who's pissed off because I am not giving him more nuts. And then I was reading your scene and it was just hilarious how important that physicality is in a scene. Because we're always talking about specificity, strong verbs, you know, really making something come alive on the page. And for our listeners, you know, if that's something you struggle with, with, please, please, please get this book to just see how the action unfolds. And you can imagine every action. Like it feels very cinematic.
- [51:49]
Summer
Yay. I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah, I think that was one thing I really. Because I love cozy fantasy. I love the genre and writing in the genre. I still wanted it to feel visceral. Like when you're reading a really high impact fantasy, high world, high magic, is there such an urgency and viscerality? But what if that was with a squirrel and a tulip bulb? What happens? How, how can I do that? And so I really enjoyed writing those high, high stakes scenes for the, for Clara and us as the reader being like, it's a squirrel, it's a squirrel. You're going after them. And they are, as you say, they're nutty. They can really come after you.
- [52:28]
Bianca Murray
They are predictable little bosses. Okay, so let's come back to the physicality of writing a sex scene. Okay, Anyone who's listening with their kids in the car, now's the time to, you know, put in, put in your earphones, whatever. You have been warned. So just from hearing you speak online, what is the difference between say, spicy and smutty? Like, you know, I don't understand the different levels of all of these. So I would like you to take us through this and then also to discuss the writing of it. Effy.
- [53:03]
Summer
Sure, sure. I mean, great question. And I feel like this is, it's like a sliding scale, like everybody's Goodreads scale. So to me, if there is a book that says that it has spice, I am expecting a sex scene. It's not just going to be like a closed door situation. If there is is a book with romance that could mean spice or it might be closed door or you know, that all of the sensations and the imagination is there, but they don't. We don't get to see it on the page. Smut, I would say, is a tier above wherein if you take out the spice, then the. You lose a lot of the plot because the plot is building towards this moment, this smut moment, this spicy moment. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense.
- [53:50]
Bianca Murray
It makes complete sense. But then I start thinking about, like, taken by the T Rex. I mean, what the hell is that? Is that. Taken by the T Rex? Okay, I'm assuming that's what, like dinosaur smut?
- [54:06]
Emily Summer (returning for comps segment)
Yeah.
- [54:07]
Summer
Oh, 100. And then there's Morning Glory Milking Farm, which is minotaur smut, which again, it's. You don't really have a plot without the spider vice, which is where you really get. And I see, I see a lot of smut featuring monsters or pairings that would otherwise not make sense because there's not a lot of questions about the plot. There's not like gaping plot holes. There's just other gaping holes wherein we're hoping it's filled sometime in the book by these improbable duos. And that is. That's what big faults.
- [54:40]
Bianca Murray
Oh my God. Oh, this is hilarious. Okay, so before we have to go, please give us some advice on writing something that is really spicy and sexy and with the physicality, etc, so that the reader is swept along, feels all hot and bothered afterwards, and is not sitting there trying to figure out where this hand came from or whatever. Because I remember my book club once we actually acted out a scene on a grand piano to see if what this couple was supposed to have done on the grand piano, if they were able to do it. And we like, were like, no, there's no way, considering their heights, etc that they could have done it.
- [55:19]
Kerry Clare
So.
- [55:19]
Bianca Murray
So take us through something where the reader is not even wondering where, you know, where they are on this grand piano.
- [55:27]
Summer
Oh, I love this question so much. So first, I would say one of the biggest tips to writing a spice scene is the buildup to it. One is I like to do by the rule of three. So a miss a kiss and then the thing. So we get that tension. So when we get there as the reader, there's the emote. It's like, oh my God, thank God. Please, please already touch each other. And. And so I write, I write sapphic, I write in the. So it is. It is women loving women, spice scenes. And in first scene, first person pov, knowing where everybody's hands are, where the hands just were what, slipping in where, making sure that depending on where the two bodies are at, that they could, if their hands are reaching towards somewhere that they're not doing a twister version of it. I would say the biggest thing is keeping track of the hands and where. And where those are at and just, you know, tracing whether it's through the hair or through the neck or, you know, sort of gradually making your way down from. From tip to the toes, if you will, which is sort of where I. Where I kind of lay in regards to writing smut is we start with the kiss, we start with the face, and then slowly we inch down the body. And that helps me keep track of where things are. And also, editors help a lot. A lot of just making sure there was a. There was a moment. I still have it screenshotted on my Google Docs where my editor was like, like. And how many fingers are inside right now? And it was, like, such a good question because I just kept saying, like, and another and another and another to the point where it was like, wow. Wow.
- [57:10]
Bianca Murray
That's one editorial note I have never gotten. And I feel sad about that. I feel really sad. I feel like I need. I need to up my game. I need this kind of editorial note at some point.
- [57:22]
Summer
There's still time. There's still time.
- [57:24]
Bianca Murray
But I like what you said about the. Because I think for women especially so much about the Spice. And that is psychological. Right. It's building up to this thing. What did you say? The kiss. The miss. The.
- [57:38]
Summer
The miss. The kiss, and then the spice.
- [57:41]
Bianca Murray
Right. So it is. It's working up to the point where your reader is like, for the love of God, if these two don't start hopping on top of each other, we're gonna have problems. Problems here. So it's. It's building up to that.
- [57:52]
Summer
Yeah, I. I hope I might. The greatest compliment anyone has ever given me when they have read an arc of this book is that they were sexually frustrated. And I was like, thank goodness.
- [58:02]
Emily Summer (returning for comps segment)
Thank goodness.
- [58:03]
Summer
I'm glad. I'm glad because, I mean, we know our main character is from the beginning, and so I, you know, sewing that emotion, I think makes the Spice even better because it's not as much about the. The Spice is wild. You know, there's not T. Rexes kidnapping people in the middle of the night, which, of course, I think is great. I. I would laud that as literary amazingness, but anyhow, it's. Instead, like, we get this emotional catharsis that we've been waiting for. So any touch at that point, anything is like, oh, my God, thank God. You know, it's the hand flex and the Pride and Prejudice. That's what we all want. Want is what I want.
- [58:41]
Bianca Murray
At least and it's also a part of the character development. Right. So, you know, we know who this character is at the beginning and who she then becomes at the end is so different. And that's part of that journey for her as well. So it's not like, well, here she is. La, la, la. Okay, boom, we're gonna throw some smut at you. And then she carries on. It's part of all of that.
- [59:01]
Summer
Yeah, yeah, I. I definitely wanted it to be, you know, that the spice wasn't just. Just forced in, but it definitely. There was. It was. It moved the plot ahead, at least internally for Clara while also being, you know, fun to experience.
- [59:19]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, yeah. Very fun readers. Very fun. Okay, we're at the end of our time. I'm holding up the book again. The Impossible Garden of Clara Thorne. Really, really lovely, Summer. It's been so wonderful chatting with you. This. This, this book cover is just absolutely gorgeous. Where did you say we could get those? Where did you say we could get the watercolors from?
- [59:39]
Summer
So if you pre order from an indie bookshop in Richmond, Virginia called Fountain Bookstore, your pre order will come with two watercolor renderings that I had of the town of Moss and the town of Dwindle.
- [59:51]
Bianca Murray
And for our listeners on bookshop.org you can choose which independent bookstore you would like to benefit from your pre order. So you can still order through there. What is the name of the bookstore again?
- [60:03]
Summer
Fountain Bookshop.
- [60:04]
Bianca Murray
Okay, there we go. So let's support that at the same time. Thank you so much for joining us, Summer. This was wonderful.
- [60:10]
Summer
Thank you so much for having me. It was a delight.
- [60:13]
Bianca Murray
Hi, everyone. Today's guest is a former bookstore manager who has worked as a bookseller for Kohl's regional marketing manager and events coordinator for Channel Chapters, and as national marketing manager for Indigo. Then moving into the publishing side of the business. He worked in the marketing and publicity departments of publishers such as Stewart House and Scholastic Canada. As a marketing director at Penguin Random House, he managed all Canadian marketing and publicity for DK Publishing, as well as Rough Guides and Alpha Books. Most recently, he was responsible for sales and marketing at Dundon Press, Chris as vice president and coo, and now he runs the Idea Shop. It's my pleasure to welcome Chris Houston. Chris, welcome to the show.
- [61:02]
Chris Houston
Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.
- [61:05]
Bianca Murray
I'm so excited to have you here. So those of you who pay attention will have seen an article by Chris in one of our recent substacks. It was a wonderful article. We had such excellent feedback on it and so we wanted to have Chris back on the podcast so that we could ask him your most burning questions. Before we get into all of that, do you want to tell us a bit about the Idea Shop?
- [61:30]
Chris Houston
Chris, my great love is publicity. It's like playing the lottery, but other people win and it's a great opportunity. I've worked for big publishing houses and at one point I was living with an author. And I'm going to reveal to your, your entire audience. I am super big on eavesdropping, so listening to the conversations happening in the other room, as my author girlfriend at the time was so frustrated with publicity and tours and marketing and book jackets and blurbs, it was just. I was just soaking it in. I was soaking it in and so I thought it would be great. I love doing positive things and helping authors get their audience find the audience. It's hard. I know as a bookseller, you know, when that book moves from the front table to the shelf and it's spine out, it's even more challenging to find the book. I want the blue book that was here on the table last Christmas anyway. So it's a great use of all of my energy and talents to work with authors to try to find their audience, increase their profile, help them with their manuscripts, social media, whatever they need. Idea shop.
- [62:42]
Bianca Murray
Amazing. And yeah, you know what? It is so frustrating because as authors, we sit here in our darkened rooms muttering darkly to our imaginary friends and we do this for however long and then we hand it over to someone who will hopefully give us money for it and then it becomes a product. And then for somebody like me, who is a eight type, type control freak, Capricorn, that's when I really start to freak out because I have no or very little control after that. And so our work goes out into the world. And what's terrible is that there have been books out there that are some of the best books I have ever read in my life. And yet I never knew about these books. If it wasn't for one little person who was like, this is my favorite book, I would never have heard about it. So this is why we need people like you to get our books into the right hands and hopefully for the longest time possible because like you say, the clock ticks. And you know, I am quite fascinated by the fact. I just want to tell you one thing before we dive in, is that because my latest book, A Most Puzzling Murder, because people have to email for clues and for bonus content, I see who's reading the book in real Time. And I see who's still emailing. And so this has been my book with the longest longevity. It came out in June and we are now, this interview is happening in February and it's still having quite. Yeah, I mean that's quite a long time for a book, right?
- [64:17]
Chris Houston
Yeah. And that's the thing though ironic is books are pretty much forever, you know, because way back when I was managing the cold store, there was an exciting moment where we went from big binders full of information so the younger, younger listeners will not know about this to computer. Computer. Very exciting. So I said, before you tear up all the 15, 20 years of info in the binders, just riddle me this. What was our top selling book from 1977 to 1995? And they. This was great, great detail work. Number one book, I'll save you time, Catcher in the Rye. That book had sold more copies than the Stephen Kings and the Donnie Brascos and the Aislin cartoon books, everything, hands down by such a huge margin. But it's hiding there in plain sight. There's three or four copies in the store, but it's just churning away, churning away. It's paying for the lights, it's paying for the power. And books have a really long lifespan. DK we would design a $60 coffee table book called they're great at Titles, History of Science. You know, that book was meant to sell for a minimum of seven years, if not 10. It was built like your car. It was meant to last. So books should have a much longer lifespan. And you can. Someone buys your new book because they've seen some publicity. That's why it's worth investing in publicity. They go back, they discover the back catalog the book. You won't talk about, you know, these kinds of things. And it's, it's such a big win for an author to, to build that audience.
- [65:54]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, well, I mean let's dive into all of this now because a lot of our supporters keep hearing that the publicity industry has changed, that traditional book publicity models are failing authors. What do you think the biggest drivers of those have been? And then I'm definitely going to ask you what kind of publicity actually makes moves the needle with book sales?
- [66:15]
Chris Houston
Great question. Well, I've been on the other side, so I know the biggest problem is time. So one thing, even if you have all the money in the world, you can't buy. The hardest working people other than authors in publishing are the publicists. If you see a publicist, buy them a drink, give them a hug. It's never A great day for them. No one, no author ever has said, wow, that was too much publicity. They can't win. You know, they, absolutely, they're trying and trying and trying. Now what's happened is a big publishing house, at one time it would be reasonable to expect 7 to 10 publicists working around the clock. You can imagine the cartoon version of this. Pages flying phones, telexes, faxes. Anyway, now it's half that or less, and they're still publishing as many books. So you have one publicist who has 50 books to promote and they're going to love your book. So that's, that's great, but they're going to be distracted by 49 other books that they have to do in the course of a year. I mean, they space it out. So there's this dreaded expression that no author ever wants to hear. Active publicity period. As the author, your active publicity period is your whole life. As soon as that book comes out, it's there, it's part of it makes it to Wikipedia, you're done. The active publicity period, though, at a publishing house, they have to move on. Other books are coming. So, you know, if we get a request, great, but we're not going to be actively. So this has really changed in the last few years. The active publicity period since I've been doing this work has just shrunk to like three months, you know, and three months is quite potent. You can get a lot done in there, but everything's speeded up. You know, social media has sped everything up. So such great questions you sent me ahead of the interview, and I thank you so much. It's like getting the cheat sheet for a table. That's the thing. I know I'm going to pass now. I had just enough time to email 10 publishers and publicists that I truly respect who are, you know, for, for the big five to the, to the small five, and asked them very quickly, anonymously, what moves the needles for sales? Just to see what I get. Because I gotta be honest, I think I know. But this is now serious because I'm talking to you and your listeners and viewers. So I want to make sure I have useful information for the day. So surprisingly or not so surprisingly, the top two things were CBC and a variety of shows and still the Globe and Mail. Now that would have been the answer 10 years ago or 15 years ago. Bubbling under is things like TikTok, Instagram, social media. And I know that's a big interest a lot of authors especially. I do a workshop with authors preparing their Manuscript for submission. It's very important to have a profile because I was an acquiring editor at Dunder and Press. I acquired a couple real. I was very particular, acquired a couple of gems. But acquiring now is like this. You get a manuscript and then we're super lazy people addicted to computers. We turn to the computer and we go, ah, this Bianca person, what's she look like online? You know, what's chugging through their mind is obviously if they have a lot of. Of followers, that's great too. But what am I seeing on this thing? Is this. Is this someone I want to have tea with? Good news. You are. She likes raccoons. Okay. But everything else is looking really, really solid. We can promote this person. That Instagram could be framed. Think about it like this. Can we take your Instagram page and put it up on the wall and want to know more? You know, and I think this is overlooked because we're all, you know, especially here in Canada, we're very low key about our achievements. You know, should we be posting while the Olympics are going on? Yes, yes. We need us people who thrive on culture and new things. We need the posts from the author. We need to know you're working on something. We may not see it for two years. This buildup is very key. When I was a buyer at Chapters, there was a very exciting book in the Penguin Random House catalog called, called no Logo. And it was by this young lady, Naomi Klein, who lived in Montreal. And I knew her mother. And I was so excited. I was like, yes, we'll do a window for this. And every time the sales rep would come and cross that page out. Book's not ready. Three seasons go by. Every time I'm like, hey, what? By the third season, I'm like, no logo. No logo. You know, he said, great news, it's ready. You know, I'll take 10,000 copies. You know, the buildup is key, and your social media should kind of work the same way thing, even if you don't have a publisher. We want to know that the creatives of the world are working on something and they're making a mess. Please show us messy pictures. I asked one author I was working with, show me a picture of your work area. It looks like an ikea. You know, it's perfect. Everything's this every. There's no way. I'm not even going to show you. Thank God the camera is facing it. Below camera, it's sharks and dirt and dust. But, you know, we want to see, see this activity and, and we want to get you ingrained in the, in the, the minds of readers. This is someone I want to know more from. I've, I've bought books simply because I like the person's social media feed. And they seem like, this sounds interesting. They've been, they've been posting about sanatoriums for, for three years. I. I'm ready. Give me the book.
- [71:41]
Bianca Murray
Hilarious. So, okay, so that's what's moving the needle currently for, for book sales. So then, I mean, I must be honest, I think I've pissed somebody off at the CBC because I don't think I've ever been covered by the CBC ever. Great news.
- [71:59]
Chris Houston
You have something to look forward to. Yeah, well, so the cbc, I mean, you know, presumably the CBC would love to answer this question, but since you haven't invited them today, I'll give you my two cents of this. The CBC are a bunch of people who literally can. They're all, all experts. They're fantastic. They're very passionate about what they do. But someone could come along and say, bianca, it's Tuesday today. Now you're working on this show. But I really like the. I'm a book person. I like the book show. Yeah, I know, but we need you over here in room number seven working on the Olympics or something. I mean, it's very shuffly. So the continuity that, you know, Sheila Rogers was great because she stayed in one place and we knew we could trust her. And if Sheila. When I get a no from Sheila Rogers, I'm just as excited as I am with a yes. Because it means a lot of publicity, is sending emails. We don't want authors doing this. We don't want Bianca sending emails and not hearing back because it's going to make it very, very hard to face the blank page the next day. Because you're like, why am I doing this, cbc? You know, to get an author on cue. I don't know, 30, 40 emails, seven producers. One producer says, oh, this sounds intriguing. Let me go talk to the other kids on the bus. You know, and it goes around for, you know, and sometimes it's an instant yes. We like that. Anthony Daniels, who's C3PO in Star wars, that took them about six minutes to say yes to. But, but, you know, if I'm pitching Bianca, I've got to find. Bianca may not be the best person to pitch. Bianca, I'm picking on you because you're the only other person who came today. You know, Bianca may not be the ideal person to recognize why she stands out in the crowd. And she may be reluctant to bring up a couple of side stories because you may think they're not relevant. But based on my last email from cbc, who say, well, right now we're really interested in people who have affection for critters. Okay. I know someone you know. So, so, so the next pitch gets that much better. So it's great to have the continuity of doing this for a really long time because, you know, there's certain people I. Not to freak you out. I know what you like, and I'll get you more of those guests if you answer my email, even. No, just say, no, I'm good. Just prove that you're alive and you're answering your emails. Yeah.
- [74:23]
Bianca Murray
So don't feel bad even talking about their actual shows. I think last may they said 60 Canadian mysteries coming out this summer by Canadians. And I didn't even make that list on their Instagram page. And it was Mysteries coming out by Canadians. Yeah. Anyway, I have pissed off at the cbc. I apologize for whatever I did.
- [74:50]
Chris Houston
You. You cannot take it personally. For years, I wondered why every. You know, DK publishing holiday books galore. Big books you'd never buy for yourself. They're too expensive. But you buy them for your nieces and nephew, you know, I couldn't understand why the National Post wasn't reviewing them. I'd send them three boxes of books, the Globe and Mail, three boxes of books just in November. It didn't bother them all year round. Finally, I run into someone back when they had cocktail parties, you know, I said, hey, you know, I'm curious. After four years of sending you, like, you know, $9,000 worth of beautiful books, you haven't reviewed a single one. The guy's like, I never got any books, you know, and it didn't even occur to me that, like, you know, the people in the mailroom were using them to keep warm or, you know, you don't even know. So. So guaranteed it's not you. It changes on a dime. I've had no one day from one producer on a show and a yes the next day. And, you know, pandemic times. People aren't necessarily. I'd love to have all of the CBC living here in my office. It'd be so, so easy and less time consuming. But luckily, they don't have to live with me. So you gotta just keep trying. And if, even if you don't have a publicist, if you have a handy teenager, niece, nephew, cousin, anyone other than you just have them send the email and it never hurts. She's got people working for her now. We'll be afraid that, we'll be afraid that food court downstairs at the cbc. It's like, you know, just people just, you know, ready to pounce on the
- [76:13]
Bianca Murray
producers and shout out to Marissa Stapley who got me on Mail and Guardian. She chose my debut as one of the top hundred books. So. And that me and that really shifted the needle. So thank you to other authors who support other authors as well when it comes to these things that that's so important as well. Okay, so how long before a book pubs should an author already be working with you on their campaign to stand any chance of success?
- [76:42]
Chris Houston
This is a great question because often I'm called in like a dramaturge. You know, the book's been out for three months, author is unhappy, active publicity period has ended. Over to you, Chris. Either the publisher's paying me or the author pays me directly. Fine. But it's a lot harder to work after the books. Everyone's sense of new. Many times the most common email I get is, well, this book came out in November. So promoting your book from last June or July, I would have to use my magic to make it seem current. Not by lying, but just by saying, well right now of course every human being on earth is reading this kind of book and this is, this is your spokesmodel for this, for this topic. So why don't you give it a shot? You have to kind of, you know, so ahead of time is best. Especially great news. I've worked, I think I've worked for most publishers in Canada now. I play very nice with publishers because I've been in their position so often. I'll have a meeting with the author, with the publisher and we try to isolate some unique points that are worth capitalizing on. To be honest, publishers won't sign you unless they can see. They've got to explain to many people how this book will sell. So they usually have a pretty good idea. So great. I get, I get a sheet of paper saying get to work Chris. And I just double the efforts that they're already spending. But ahead of time is best, especially if there's a chance to affect things like a blurb cover. Cover is very important. You know, I work with a lot of self published authors and you know, they're so proud I wrote the book and I took the picture of the COVID cover. It's a great picture like for Instagram. But it's not necessarily the book cover that's going to fight against Bianca's book. On the shelf. So if I can get involved at that point, even better cover designs. Blurb, let's go. You don't want to be chasing your own blurbs. That's painful. Stephen King didn't answer me. Again, if you're upset about the cbc, imagine if you're trying to get a blurb from John Fowles. He's not answering anybody things. So when there's a third party involved, it tends to be like, hey buddy, I'm actually really busy. Say something nice or write it yourself. Attach my name to it. You get a much more human response because no one wants to upset an author. They're angry and they're vengeful and they
- [79:03]
Bianca Murray
hold grudges about you.
- [79:06]
Chris Houston
I'm like the guy in the red shirt on Star Trek. You know, I'm not coming back to the ship. So they're just going to like, like, I'm done.
- [79:14]
Bianca Murray
But okay, okay. So, so, but just going back to our first question because we said, we said CBC and we said male and guardian. But that's obviously for Canadian writers. We have a lot of US listeners for them. In terms of moving the needle, who would that be for them?
- [79:29]
Chris Houston
Ah, the number one answer for the US was New York Times. New York Times. New York Times. I have my media list for the New York Times. I think is about 200 names now. I don't know what it is culturally. There's a lot more people in the United States. That explains part of it. It's much harder to get answers from the US they feel a little bit, especially if it's clear that Canada is asking. Although sometimes it has worked in my favor. Television is great. The wish if you asked one of the questions I asked in my request for information is what thought lets you sleep well at night regarding publicity. And this is to publicists as well as publishers. And they all said and pretty much the same thing, celebrity book club. If you can get into. As soon as you make that leap into popular culture and you have to think about why that is, people are looking for things to be curated. You've mentioned like hundred best lists, things like that. If we walk into a bookstore and you don't have a clue, browsing can be a migraine inducing experience unless you have some idea of what you're looking for. So America, you want national, they've got great national TV programs, but you want someone really breaking through. You want to be on a show that people are watching and they're not expecting a book. If you tell people, hey, let's go Watch the book show on tv. You and I will be all over it, but our cool friends will be like, actually, the Voice is on. So it's this idea that it's been curated by Reese Witherspoon or Oprah on, you know, or someone has said, hey, I read this and it's really good. That's very compelling. That's the problem with publicity, is I read every book I promote and. And I have to be able to stand by it. Say, actually, this is really good. And the good news is I like to read, I like books, and I like a lot of different things, so it works out. But New York Times tv, npr, kind of like their cbc. I got, I got one book on pbs, which was great because pbs, they, they're immune to this thing. I said about how great zoom is because you could do interviews. They want the author in person, sitting still. Don't move, sir, madam, don't touch the palm tree. And we're going to talk for two hours. We're not editing. And you just tell us what you're thinking. That really lets you. If you're a kind of literary type person. PBS and NPR for.
- [81:53]
Bianca Murray
Okay, okay, perfect. So we did get that answer for Our American Friends. Okay, so I've seen authors want to hire a publicist and just be like, okay, I'm paying you. You do this now, and I'm not going to do anything. You need to go out and make my book a success. Now, obviously, how can you work with the author in a way that makes it a very successful partnership?
- [82:17]
Chris Houston
Well, it's a bit like those reality shows where the person is jumping off a bridge. I've never done this before. Then the person pushes the go off the bridge in a nice way. There's a bungee attached. Just wanted to be clear. So we need authors who are, who are going to do the work. Now, some authors just can't wait to get out there. Please give me all the interviews that you can. And actually, to be fair, some want the promotion, but they're much more comfortable, like, you know, sitting at their desk. Maybe we could do a zoom. Maybe it's an email interview, things like that. But there's going to be requests on their time and energy. Most of the time we work this out ahead of time. You know, I'll ask, call. You know, Bianca's good mornings, she likes 9 to 12. Rest of the time she's busy Tuesdays and Wednesdays. And we just decide you're going to do Tuesdays and Wednesdays. If it's the CBC or the New York Times or, you know, if Reese Witherspoon is calling, all bets are off. But generally, we stick to a bit of a plan, and you have to trust me. Sometimes it'll be like, well, I don't think this is a great show. I said, I'm going to use the not great show that you don't like, and I'm going to get you a bigger show because they're going to send them the Lincoln say. So it all kind of works in tandem. And so I'm like the person at the top of the mast saying, iceberg on the left. Let's go right. And you have to be willing, if you're hoping to just sort of write a check and take three months and work on your next book. You could do a couple things with that. But it's better if you're going to be actively engaged and you're going to be busting to do something because you've submitted your manuscript. There's a terrible period where authors seem to really lose their mojo, is after the manuscript and all the edits are done, there's like three to six to eight months of, like, waiting, waiting, waiting. You know, you can't really focus on the next book. What's happening with this one? They change the jacket. You know, that's a great time to get me involved. I keep your company and I can help interact. Oh, I don't like the new cover. Okay, let me send the email that goes with that, you know.
- [84:14]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, yeah. And loving your cover is. Is so important and it is such a. Such an awkward conversation to have because I find publishers will now, especially with zoom, they'll have you on a zoom with the. With the editor and people in marketing and publicity and everything. And they'll be like, we think we have the best cover and we all love it. And we're about to show you, and then they flash it on screen and you're like, what the hell is that thing? And you're like, to smile, but your eye starts twitching. So, yeah, it is important to have people on your side who could be like, that's a nice first version, but.
- [84:52]
Chris Houston
Oh, yes, yes. You've done this before.
- [84:55]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, yeah, that's great. First version, great start, but let's move on from there. Okay. We don't have much time, so I've got to dive in more here. Chris. So some people say platform doesn't matter. Others say it's essential. So what can an author be doing now while they still write in their book that might make Your job easier working with them down the line.
- [85:18]
Chris Houston
Get that social media together. Start having those conversations. You know, if you're looking for work, the number one way to get a job is to tell people you're looking for work. Seems obvious. I've ruined an entire KPMG weekend giving that away. But people need to know you're working on a book. They'll say things like, oh, let me know if you need a hand, or I know someone who could do a great blurb. You don't know them, but I do. Like, you have to sort of let people know. So platform. Get those sanitarium posts up there, you know, ahead of the book. So people go, actually, this person's been on this for a while. We want to know. Research has been done. We want to know. You're getting your hands dirty. And we kind of like being most of us book nerds. We like being teased a little bit about, oh, what's the next one? Especially if that you've got people who've already, you know. My wife will often say to me, well, why are you buying another book? You have a book by that author. She's totally missing the point. I want all the Bianca books, but it's the teasing about what's coming next. Well, this one's going to be different because there's clues or whatever. Even if you're not revealing much, it keeps the interest going. You're fanning a little flame and that's what you do while you're working on the book. And that crazy time, that six months where you have. Have nothing going on and you're obsessing. Should I really. Maybe I'm going to change the maybe. It should be third person. Every character. You know, those terrible thoughts. Let's apply that exact same manic, crazy Capricorn energy. Let's put it into some social media posts, you know, nothing heinous. I will advise that the rule for. The rule for social media that will never steal you wrong is enthusiasm. Even if you're enthusiastic about the wrong thing, people will go, well, at least she has a heart and it's beating still, you know, so. So these are the kinds of things to do during that time. The platform is. Is build your brand however you feel comfortable or call me, but you know, build your brand and get it solid. So when that book comes out, everything kind of clicks into place. Like, oh, goodness, she's been. She's been talking about this for two years. I better buy her book.
- [87:23]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, yeah, geez, it does. And it feels like an eternity as well. Okay, so two more questions. So, so many authors right now feel like the world is a dumpster fire. I mean, you just look at the news every day and you want to weep and it's just awful. And they are on social media and they're trying to promote this book and they, and they say, I feel so bad trying to promote my book when there are wars and, and bad thing are happening in the world. What do you say to that?
- [87:52]
Chris Houston
I'm gonna use the genius of Lorne Michaels, the producer of Saturday night live. After 9 11, he had an enormous problem of, you know, we have a show scheduled. It's terrible. World changing events, tragedy at the largest scale. What do we do? And just like all of us, he crowdsourced answers and he talked to different people and, and performers and artists and they said, you got it. We need this right now more than ever, more than before this terrible incident. We need stuff that takes our minds off it or lets us like laugh at life or just help us get through this. And that's what books and art and music and so an author having an extremely bad day can be the most fun post I read all day because, well, one I read the other day, I just burnt 76 pages of my manuscript and I'm like, like, well guaranteed it's going to be better. And it actually inspires me. Like I have a whole thought process because you're the creatives and you're not properly compensated for what you're doing, of course, but you're doing it. You're driven people. I know because I spent time with some of you and this is important to share. So even if you're having the worst day, one author posted a picture of the CN Tower in fall without any comments. But that was told me a lot about whether or not to show up that day and ask for money. You know, like it's clearly he's not having a good day. The next day was better. Then you can look back and go, wow, I really, I'm. When I look at my own post, I'm a moody sort of character, aren't I? You know, so it's very important to keep it going even if you don't. Don't be put off. What's happening over there is happening over there. You, this is your own verse. The Bianca verse is yours to own. Whatever author is working, please, please share.
- [89:44]
Bianca Murray
Okay, perfect. And last question. Why is it worth paying for publicist in both the short term and the long term.
- [89:53]
Chris Houston
The great news about publicity is it helps build you and your brand and who you are. And it helps get a narrative out there that because you're paying me to help, is kind of tailored to your. Your wishes. You know, a publisher could do that too, but they do have to move on. Like, the publisher could only stay in business. So we have a very. A period of time together where when we're done, more people will know about your book, more people will know about you. I do have some curatorial skills. I think people really need to know about this. Part of your background. Were you in a punk rock group produced by Billy Bragg in the 90s? That could be kind of interesting for the people at Q, even though you're not. That's not what you're talking about now. So it really helps build your brand and it is an investment. So when you go to get your next book deal, I understand publicity. I do it for free if I could, but it costs money. But it's an investment towards your entire career because someone's going to go back and say, well, look what happened for this person's other last book. An agent or even an author could say, well, you know, that was that publisher. Imagine what you could do. Or look at all the time and money I put in and look at where I got. I'd love to have, have even more of an advance, even more support, even more publicity time, because I think we could really rock this out. So you're at, you're at a better starting point. You're at a place where you could do even more. So it's an investment for the future as much as keeping your book on the front table of the store as long as possible.
- [91:24]
Bianca Murray
Okay, so for our listeners who want to be in touch with you, where can they reach you? Where should they follow you? How do they find you?
- [91:31]
Chris Houston
You? Well, I'm on Instagram ideasop Canada. It's the ideasop Ca. And it's very easy to remember my email christheideashop ca. It's like, you know, or, you know, email you directly.
- [91:45]
Bianca Murray
And, and you said earlier that you also work with independent, with indie authors as well. What Hybrid publishers, pretty much all authors.
- [91:53]
Chris Houston
It's a full range and it's, it's quite interesting because the opportunities have never been rich for everybody because the walls have come down and it's a lot easier for people to access what they're looking for. They just need to find it. Have someone say, this is really good, or wow, I didn't know that was going to have that in it. Let's buy it.
- [92:13]
Bianca Murray
Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us, Chris. Really, really appreciate it. For our listeners, we will link to Chris's details in the show notes so you don't have to be writing those all down. Thank you so much, Chris.
- [92:26]
Chris Houston
Thanks so much. Nice to be here.
- [92:28]
Bianca Murray
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another comps segment in which the incredible Emily Summer from East City Bookshop comes in and answers all your burning comps questions. Now, if you would like to record a request for future months, just go to the shit about writing our website and go to ask a question. You get a minute there to tell Emily as much as you can about vibes and tone and everything else, and then we'll see what magic she comes up with. Welcome, Emily.
- [92:59]
Emily Summer
Thank you for having me.
- [93:00]
Bianca Murray
Okay, yes, we just want. Emily wants to tell us about her. Her dog in the background.
- [93:06]
Emily Summer
So I specifically gave him a toy to distract him so that he would be quiet while we record this. And of course, he's been even louder than ever because of his toy, so that's fine. It's going to give our editor, the brilliant Alicia, more work to do while I. And actually, I'm gonna go. So I'm gonna go let him out right now.
- [93:23]
Chris Houston
Okay.
- [93:24]
Emily Summer
I'll be right back. This is podcasting, folks. And in addition to Phil insisting on being let out at the most inopportune times, it is also snowing here in Washington, D.C. yesterday it was 85 degrees.
- [93:38]
Bianca Murray
So it's a little.
- [93:39]
Emily Summer
That's how things are going. But we're ready for comps.
- [93:42]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, we're ready for comps, people. We are here to do it. Okay, here is our first one.
- [93:47]
Comp question submitter 1
Hello, I'm seeking comms for my urban fantasy novel, Embermarked, which is written in third person. Ember, a fire cadet at the Chicago Citadel, wants one to become a Firekeeper and protect the city from demons. When a supposedly extinct demon appears, the Elemental Council sends an investigative squad to uncover where it came from. Ember volunteers to help. Driven by a deep distrust of the Council after they sent her parents to their deaths on a routine mission nine years ago, she immediately clashes with the squad's disciplined leader, Wade, a Waterkeeper whose calm, controlled water magic grates against her fire. In a rigid society where elemental power dictates status, social standing, career prospects, and even marriage contracts, mixing elements is taboo. But when they get caught in the crossfire of magic, it triggers a fusion bond between Ember and Wade, the two of them becoming unwillingly tethered. Forced to work together, they must uncover who is opening the rifts to the demon realm survive meddling matriarchs frivolous ball and uncover the truth behind her parents murder. Thank you so much for your help.
- [94:47]
Emily Summer
Okay, so if I am not mistaken, I think that you sent in this comp last month and it just was in under the like too late for us to include it. So if I'm correct about that, thank you so much for recording again and sending it in again. I had one immediate thought and I think it's because of the the fire imagery and that is Pen Cole's Kindred curse saga. The first book in that series is called the Spark of the Ever Flame, which sort of reminded me of the Ember marker. Similarly, I thought about Jennifer Armentrout's From Blood and Ash. And there is another fantasy novel coming out on March 31st that has been getting some buzz called Empire of Flame and Thorns. So those are the first three that I thought of as possible comps. They are all, as I understand it, enemies to lovers, lots of danger, like avenging past wrongs or trying to protect the world from future danger. Lots of world building. So all of those feel like solid possibilities.
- [95:49]
Bianca Murray
Wonderful. Thank you so much. It sounds like Phil wants to come back inside.
- [95:53]
Emily Summer
Wants to come back inside. So I'm going to go let him back in. And we're going to keep our fingers crossed that he doesn't have any contact comps to add to our segment. We've definitely had the dogs participate before, but not quite to this degree. So Bianca, thank you for your patience. Now my little one is growling at the big one.
- [96:09]
Bianca Murray
Love the pooches. Love them. Okay, here is number two.
- [96:12]
Emily Summer
We love our pets and our books.
- [96:15]
Bianca Murray
Hi, my name is Amy and I'm looking for recent comp titles for my book proposal. My memoir is entitled Replacement Child How Uncovering My Family's Secret Set Me Free. It chronicles my having replaced a child my parents adopted and then relinquished when they learned that she was biracial. I was the replacement child and was raised in an all white community outside of Chicago without exposure to a diverse population or different cultures. I argue that growing up in the segregated enclave warped my world via you. There are themes of race and segregation, a fraught father daughter relationship, and obviously family secrets. I would appreciate any help. Thanks
- [97:08]
Emily Summer
for number two for Replacement Child. You know, I love a family memoir and my first thought is it's too old, but I do think it is an appropriate comp. And that's Jesus Land by Julia Shears. So it is older, but I feel like it's a classic of the genre. And it is a marvelous family memoir specifically about race because it deals with the white author's relationship with her adopted black brother. So I think that one's right here. Another one that normally I would say might be too old, but I also think it is just too right on the money. Not to mention it is the Glass Eye by Jeanne Vanasco. She's a wonderful memoirist. I think that she is in Baltimore and this is about her relationship with her father specifically. And the key here is that her father had a daughter who died before the author was born. So her sister, half sister, and her name was Jeanne too. So he has a daughter who has died, then he has another daughter and names them the same name. So I think this is very much a comp for your replacement child. Title and theme I will also shout out a brand new memoir. I think it just came out Tuesday. I don't know if it's really a comp here, but it's so good that I want to mention it. And it's called in the Days of My Youth. I Was Told what It Means to Be a Man by Tom Junaud and I just started reading it and it's excellent so far. So again, it might not be exactly right for this memoir, but it is about a son who is reckoning with his father's life, his father's secrets and what that means for his legacy as his father's son. And it's just excellent. It's one that I can't wait to get back to every time I put it down.
- [98:57]
Bianca Murray
Amazing. Thank you. Our listeners always appreciate all the books you add to the to be read pile.
- [99:02]
Kerry Clare
So okay, that's what I'm here for.
- [99:04]
Bianca Murray
Number three.
- [99:06]
Comp question submitter 3
Hello Emily and Bianca. I'm seeking comps from my psychological thriller about a 50 year old crisis line volunteer who puts herself in danger when she crosses the line to help a troubled caller. I'd like a comp that captures the main character's stage in life. She's a single mom struggling through menopause, having devoted her life to raising her now 19 year old son who's leaving for university after breaking protocol to visit a caller who really seems to need her help. She finds out the caller has disappeared. The main character teams up with a missing person's mother in law who is taking over custody of the caller's young daughter to try to find her. From there the story takes a few twists and turns with an escalation of missing to murdered similar to a Sherri Lapena domestic thriller. Lisa Jewell or Karen Slaughter are also potential comps, but I haven't found the perfect title. Thank you in advance. I love every part of the Shit podcast, especially the comp segment. It always adds to my I want to read.
- [100:06]
Emily Summer
Okay, this sounds excellent to me. This is exactly the kind of psychological thriller that I like. I'm also more and more interested in books about women in their 50s who might be menopausal for no specific reason. I like the mention of Sherry Lapa and Karen Slaughter. You know, Karen Slaughter is one of my favorites. If you've ever heard one of these segments before, I'm thinking too of the of Alice Vega in Louisa Luna's Alice Vega novels. I can't remember how old she is. I don't think she's not 50, but she does. If I'm remembering correctly, she's a little older than our like like a very scrappy young protagonist. And there are actually some good mysteries out there that feature older women, but they skew a lot older in most cases. And in the in instances I'm thinking of, they're a lot cozy. So I'm thinking of like, you know, the Richard Osmond or Deanna Rayborn Jesse Sutanto. So those aren't right. The Karen Slaughter title that might be the closest could be pieces of her because that protagonist is older and has a young adult daughter who's getting out on her own. I would also look maybe at Kimberly McCrate's like mother, like Daughter. It is Sherry Lapina esque. It's a Mother and Her Adult Young Adult Daughter, Domestic suspense. And then I would also look at the authors Joy Fielding and Chevy Stevens, and see if any of their particular titles resonate. So those are my suggestions.
- [101:33]
Bianca Murray
Thank you. I know Samantha Downing also came out of the book recently called Too Old for this.
- [101:38]
Emily Summer
That's a good idea. I did not think of that. That's a great idea. That's a great suggestion.
- [101:42]
Bianca Murray
Okay. All right, moving on to number four.
- [101:46]
Emily Summer (returning for comps segment)
Dear Bianca and Emily, thank you in advance for helping me find some comps for my debut novel, Put yout Hope in the Sky, a single pov, single timeline women's fiction story about Eleanor Aldrin, the second favorite child who desperately seeks her father's approval and attention. Eleanor has been away from home for seven years, but after a family emergency, she moves back home to help on the family farm. In the story, Eleanor grapples with her aloof mother, who seems sad and depressed, and her beloved twin brother, who is obviously her father's favorite child child and discovers long hidden secrets about her father that changes everything she thought she knew about him. So far I have the Accidental Favorite by Fran Littlewood as a comp, but please help me identify a few more. Eleanor is in her late 20s and most father daughter stories I find are with a much younger daughter. Thank you, Sarah.
- [102:43]
Emily Summer
I am so glad you mentioned the Accidental Favorite by Fran Littlewood because that that would have been my first suggestion otherwise jumped out at me right away. And there's something about the title and the way that you describe the book that makes me think about the books of Linda Holmes. Her books don't deal with favoritism or like a father daughter relationship specifically that I can recall, at least not in a major way. But in terms of like the time of life and starting over, returning home, dealing with family dynamics, all of those things do feel appropriate here. And they and plus her books are just wonderful. They're funny, they're smart, they're a real bomb. So they are perfect for right now, even if they're not a great comp. But I would take a look because they might be. There might be something that's resonant there that makes sense.
- [103:29]
Bianca Murray
Thank you so much. Okay, here's number five.
- [103:33]
Emily Summer (returning for comps segment)
I would appreciate your thoughts on comps from my speculative novel in which a grieving family has cloned their deceased teenage daughter only to discover a second clone was created for the purposes of in utero research. Set on a maple farm in Vermont, this multiple POV literary leaning novel follows a husband, wife and their remaining twin daughter through the repercussions of their decision, including the wife's rise to celebrity and the impact on the family business, the husband's fight to maintain his sobriety under the financial stressors, and their daughter's crusade to bring about justice for their family and others like them. My current comps are Never Let Me Go as well as and Again by Jessica Ciarella, but I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on others I could explore. Thanks so much.
- [104:19]
Emily Summer
I love it when we get a literary speculative novel because that is my that is my favorite type of speculative fiction. I would say I totally get where you're coming from with Never Let Me Go. I think it's too big. I think once an author has won the Nobel, then they're out of our league for query purposes. And all of the other like medical speculative fiction I can think of is really too big and too old. And it also, I think even maybe more importantly than that it's I. The things that I'm thinking of right away are too commercial, I think. Like Michael Crichton or Robin Cook or Tess Garrettson, maybe look at Karen Thompson Walker and Helen Phillips and Kate Hope Day. None of them are perfect comps, but those are, as I've said in past episodes, they are my go to for very literary speculative fiction. Maybe even you might consider see if any of Emily St. John Mandel's books are right. Again, she's probably too big, but she's not as big as Ishiguro, so it's an improvement there. And again, very literary. And she often has some kind of speculative angle that could make the tone and the content and the reader feel right. It might be the same reader.
- [105:34]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, I think her last one like that was Sea of Tranquility, right?
- [105:38]
Emily Summer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she got a new one that's coming out later this year, Exit Party. So add that, go ahead and pre order it from your local independent bookstore or request it from the library so you'll be first in line when it comes out.
- [105:50]
Bianca Murray
I have tried to get on the podcast so many times, so I'm going to be reaching out to a publicist and so see if we can make it happen. Finally.
- [105:57]
Emily Summer
Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed.
- [105:58]
Bianca Murray
Okay, here's number six.
- [106:01]
Comp question submitter 6
Hi, Emily. I'm looking for comms for my debut work of domestic suspense. It has themes of a morally ambiguous love triangle, betrayal, found family and friendship. Blindsided by her husband's mysterious death, and devastated because she can't have a baby, Abby has escaped to a small town, a place where she's separated from her husband's overbearing family.
- [106:22]
Emily Summer (returning for comps segment)
Family.
- [106:22]
Comp question submitter 6
And has the freedom to do and be whatever she wants. In Miami, she was a nurse married to a doctor. But here in Keystone, she's a waitress at a cafe, sleeping with a sweet young mechanic who's eight years younger than her. Her newfound family are the cafe owners, a married couple who are due to have a baby any day now. And she lives vicariously through them until the husband mysteriously disappears one day. My current comps are A Killing Cold by Kate Alice Marshall and A Likable Woman by May Koff. But both of those authors have recently gotten a little bit big, so I'm looking for something fresh. I also really love Megan Miranda and Stacey Willingham. Thank you so much.
- [106:59]
Emily Summer
Again, I love domestic suspense. I always love to hear about a debut. I feel like most of us here are probably most of y'.
- [107:05]
Bianca Murray
All.
- [107:05]
Emily Summer
Not me.
- [107:06]
Bianca Murray
I'm not.
- [107:06]
Emily Summer
I'm. I'm only here as a. An advisor and a reader. Most of us are probably debuts, but I love domestic suspense, since that is what I read the most. I really like your suggestions of A Killing Cold and a Likable Woman. You're right that the authors have gotten bigger, but I don't think those particular titles are that big. And I will say in the store those don't feel too large to work for me. I'm also glad that you mentioned Megan Miranda and Stacy Willingham, because I think those are really good comps and that tells me, like, what lane you're in. And so honestly, Kate Alice Marshall Maycobie, Megan Miranda and Stacey Willingham, all of that works for me. And I think those are great suggestions. I got really frustrated with this one. Not because of the call, only because of my own faulty memory. Because there is a book coming out this summer that's on my radar. It piqued my interest when I saw it in the publisher's catalog. It had a great cover. It is about a woman who is having sort of. She seems like she's kind of a mess. She's having an affair with a much younger man. I feel like he was. I know in your synopsis you said she's sleeping with a young mechanic. I don't know if he was a mechanic in this situation, but she's sleeping with a younger guy who's kind of outside of her social circle and then someone goes missing or is murdered. So it sounds very similar and I cannot find the title for it. So if anybody knows the book that's coming out later this year that fits that description, please tag me on Instagram and tell me what it is, because it is driving me crazy. I really want to read it. I thought I had already downloaded the digital galley. Couldn't find it. So anyway, I spent. I spent my time researching this one, trying to jog my own bad memory. And in the meantime, I think your suggestions are perfectly on the right track. So hopefully we'll come up with that. That perfect one that I can't seem to name.
- [108:57]
Bianca Murray
Okay, for number seven.
- [108:59]
Comp question submitter 7
Century 900 is a contemporary sci fi novel I'm currently describing as the Mandalorian meets Hollywood homicide stool Point of view, following a huge Hollywood actor who's anxiously anticipating the renewal of his hit TV show and the space Vigilante character who he plays. The space Vigilante finds himself in a real world just as the actor is facing unexpected allegations about cheating on a past girlfriend, and the media is deciding there's a sex tape to prove it, while the actor tries to clear his name and understand why these allegations came up in the first place, while also trying to save The TV show he stars in, the space vigilante, is showing up at his doorstep, determined to find his way home with his doppelganger's help. I'm honestly unsure about the genre. I don't know if contemporary sci fi is actually a thing or how else I may better describe it, since it takes place largely in our present day real world. For comps, I want to find something that better matches with the plot rather than character archetypes and vibes. This book has humor and shenanigans, as well as a major subplot about one of the main characters discovering that he's a romantic. I appreciate your help.
- [109:58]
Emily Summer
So you really. This one really challenged me, in part because it's already out of my wheelhouse and in part because you specifically said I want something that matches with plot, not character or vibes. So that tells me you have listened to this segment before. Because I am often suggesting based on vibes and character, which is what I would have done in this instance. For some reason. I'm hearing these are not literary or not half not literary comps, but I'm hearing like, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood meets, like the Air Affair by Jasper Ford. Although Mandalorian meets Hollywood Homicide, I think is better. But I am going purely on vibes and character. So I don't. I do not have a great suggestion for a plot of this type. So if anybody has a great suggestion for an actor playing a space vigilante who is struggling with. With real world allegations and trying to save his show, and then the character shows up, tell us. Please tell us. Because I can think of a lot of things where, like, fictional characters come into the real world, but not in a similar situation. It's always like, literary characters or like someone from a painting. You know, it skews sort of historical fiction. So again, we're crowdsourcing.
- [111:11]
Bianca Murray
And that's also a very good sign that the author might be onto something truly unique.
- [111:16]
Emily Summer
Absolutely. Because if I hear something where I'm like, that reminds me perfectly of this, then, you know, maybe it's already been done.
- [111:22]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. Okay, here's our last one.
- [111:25]
Comp question submitter 8
Hello, my name is Paolo, and I need help finding a comp title for my philosophical literary novel, Living by Numbers. The protagonist, Adam, is a quantified selfer. The narrator is his therapist. Not that he's seeing a therapist, because anything is wrong, of course. He's just super open and checking for blind spots. Adam's carefully calibrated existence collides with an immediate and inexplicable explicable. Disney magic, true love at first sight, connection with a singer, Raya, which draws him into a world that makes no measurable sense and yet seems to matter all the more. Because of that, the narrative is a vehicle for a philosophical inquiry, engaging with the current conversation around the meaning crisis, optimisation, culture and psychedelic therapy. It's an exploration of what happens when love exposes the limits of the language and metrics that increasingly shape our relationships with ourselves, others and the world. Thematic comps are easy, but they're all non fiction. Viveki McGilchrist, Pollution, Pollen. Older comps are also easy. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, When Nietzsche Wept, and Alan de Botton's Essays in Love triangulated pretty well. But I get why these sorts of titles aren't ideal and could even put publishers off. Yet most modern fiction seems to express the very meaning crisis I'm trying to offer an antidote for.
- [112:24]
Emily Summer
Okay, so I think I have a good idea for what you're trying to get at here. My first thought was Sophie's World by Jostine Gardner.
- [112:32]
Kerry Clare
Too old.
- [112:33]
Emily Summer
But that's always when someone says, like a philosophical. Philosophical literary novel. I think about that because that is a book that explicitly uses the novel to teach philosophical tenets. I don't think, however, that that's what you're doing here. I don't think. I think you're. You mean it's philosophical and that you're trying to answer large questions about life and love. So I thought maybe Matt Haig, although it's possible that he is not literary enough.
- [113:00]
Kerry Clare
And I also can't.
- [113:01]
Emily Summer
I can't quite tell if there's anything speculative to the novel or if it's just the unexpected force of true love that opens Adam up to like a metaphorical new world and new space. So I'm grappling with those questions as I'm trying to come up with perfect comps. I will say I'm always slightly hesitant when someone says that modern fiction isn't doing what you're trying to do or is failing at it, which is not exactly what you said, but it's kind of what I heard. Because really, there is so much excellent modern fiction out there that is asking really important questions and not maybe not answering the questions, but asking them really carefully. So I do think that it's possible that there are some really good things out there that you could find one book that is jumping out at me as a possibility. And I would say this might not seem literary enough, but I think it might be doing what you are thinking about doing. It's called into the Blue by Emma Brody and it's coming out soon. It's a gorgeous love story and in that the male main character also lives a very prescribed, very carefully organized life for reasons that become clear later in the book. There is a sci fi series at the heart of this book.
- [114:20]
Bianca Murray
Book.
- [114:21]
Emily Summer
But what the book I think argues and posits is that what really like bends the space time continuum, what really is this supernatural force in the world is true love and true connection. And that is what sort of transcends all these things. So it's not a speculative story at all, but it does talk about true love, that sort of mind bending love at first sight connection, how it feels otherworldly. So because this character experiences that kind of shocking connection that opens them up to all kinds of things, I think it's a possibility. I would look out for it also. It's just really, really good and I want people to read it. So into the Blue by Emma Brody is my suggestion. Maybe Matt Haig, maybe Sophie's World. Although I don't think we are explicitly as philosophical as that. And let us know on the Instagram if there are other things that you think about.
- [115:20]
Bianca Murray
One from earlier that I've been trying to get a hold of. Who is the God? I'm blanking on the name. She, the author who owns Books Are Magic.
- [115:28]
Emily Summer
Emma Straub.
- [115:29]
Bianca Murray
Emma Straub. And she wrote a book about a relationship with a daughter and a father that was speculative, didn't she?
- [115:35]
Emily Summer (returning for comps segment)
Yes.
- [115:35]
Emily Summer
This time tomorrow. And it was excellent.
- [115:37]
Bianca Murray
Yes. So that might be one for, for one of our earlier ones as well.
- [115:41]
Emily Summer
That might be one for one of our other ones.
- [115:43]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. Thank you so much, Emily. And it was lovely seeing Phil and the gang as well.
- [115:49]
Emily Summer
Listen, thank you to everyone for their patience. This is, this is recording from home. So thank you all, we love the
- [115:56]
Bianca Murray
dogs and we'll have you back next month. Thank you.
- [115:59]
Emily Summer
All right, thank you, Bianca.
- [116:01]
Bianca Murray
And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next year week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes. Hi everyone. I'm going to keep this short because I know how busy you are. I just wanted to let you know that the next beta reader matchup is almost upon us. Submit your 3,000 words by 12pm Eastern Time on the 1st of April and you will get get your beta reader matchup emails on the 2nd of April. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com.