Replacing Plot with Emotion in Quiet Novels

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Replacing Plot with Emotion in Quiet Novels"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
• Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, and CeCe Lyra
• Guest: Lydia Hilzer, Croatian novelist and certified book coach
• Episode Title: Replacing Plot with Emotion in Quiet Novels
• Release Date: July 3, 2025

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Introduction and Guest Reintroduction

Bianca Marais opens the episode by welcoming returning guest Lydia Hilzer, highlighting her achievements as a Croatian novelist and book coach. Lydia discusses her debut novel, Slanting Towards the Sea, and her background, including a decade-long career as an attorney before transitioning to writing and book coaching.

[00:57] Bianca Marais: "Hi, Lydia, welcome back to the show."

Lydia Hilzer provides a brief recap of her previous appearance, where she shared a genre guide distinguishing various fiction categories.

Cover Art Story

Bianca showcases the cover of Slanting Towards the Sea, emphasizing its significance and Lydia's involvement in its selection process.

[01:59] Lydia Hilzer: "I saw this painting on Instagram before my book even went on sub... It ended up being the cover from the get-go."

Lydia narrates the serendipitous connection with the artist from Croatia, culminating in a meaningful in-person meeting.

Literary Citizenship and Community Support

Bianca commends Lydia for her exemplary literary citizenship, noting her consistent support during podcast fundraisers and her proactive assistance within the writing community.

[04:11] Bianca Marais: "Lydia is one of the very first people to step up and offer her help... Thank you for your excellent literary citizenship."

Improving Writing Through Critique

The conversation shifts to the importance of critiquing others' work as a pathway to enhancing one's writing skills. Lydia attributes her growth as a writer to her experience in editing and coaching, which allowed her to objectively identify strengths and weaknesses in various narratives.

[05:47] Lydia Hilzer: "When you edit other people's novels, you have the ability to maintain the perspective of being outside the novel... It's harder to have that high level view of your own work."

Lydia’s Journey to Publication

Bianca inquires about Lydia's querying process and the rapid success she experienced despite previous rejections. Lydia explains her effective querying strategy, leading to multiple agent interest and ultimately securing her current agent swiftly.

[11:11] Lydia Hilzer: "Within two weeks I got the first offer and then two more offers before I decided on my NOW agent."

Reading the Query Letter

Lydia reads her meticulously crafted query letter, showcasing her ability to balance vibes, themes, and plot succinctly. Her letter effectively captures the essence of her novel, blending emotional depth with a strong sense of place.

[12:13] Lydia Hilzer: "Dear Ms. Walters, I'm submitting to you for your consideration, Slanting Towards the Sea, a work of literary fiction..."

Analyzing the Opening of the Novel

Bianca and Lydia delve into the novel's opening scene, highlighting its emotional depth and the use of "curiosity seeds" to engage readers despite the quiet nature of the narrative. Lydia emphasizes the significance of line-level writing in immersing readers and conveying character emotions effectively.

[20:32] Lydia Hilzer: "Sometimes I stalk my ex-husband. I open his socials and sift through his photos... It's for her."

Replacing Plot with Emotion

The core of the discussion revolves around crafting quiet novels by prioritizing emotionality over traditional plot structures. Lydia advises writers to focus on authentic emotional experiences and realizations that keep readers invested.

[24:41] Lydia Hilzer: "In crafting literary novels, when they're quiet novels, what you're not doing with plot, you need to do with emotion."

Deepening Character Emotionality

Bianca probes into Lydia's method for developing deep emotional connections with characters. Lydia shares that her protagonist, Ivona, inherently possesses a rich emotional makeup, allowing her to write with genuine emotion without forcing it.

[27:19] Lydia Hilzer: "The trick with writing emotionality and getting into that emotion is writing with truth... I would just try to sink into her mental state and just speak with truth."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Bianca wraps up the episode by reiterating the importance of emotional depth in quiet novels and praising Lydia's approach to writing and community involvement. She encourages listeners to support Lydia's novel through their affiliated bookstore link.

[29:24] Bianca Marais: "If you've enjoyed this interview, go back and find the other one in which Lydia and I discuss genre. That was another epic conversation."

Lydia Hilzer expresses her gratitude for being featured on the podcast, and Bianca concludes the episode with motivational remarks for aspiring writers.

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Key Takeaways

1. Emotional Over Plot: In quiet novels, replacing traditional plot structures with deep emotional exploration can engage readers effectively.
2. Importance of Critique: Critiquing others' work is instrumental in honing one's writing skills and gaining objective perspectives.
3. Authentic Emotionality: Writing characters with genuine emotions, without forcing reader reactions, fosters relatability and depth.
4. Literary Citizenship: Active participation and support within the writing community enhance personal growth and collective success.
5. Effective Querying: A well-crafted query letter that balances themes, vibes, and plot can attract multiple agents swiftly.

Notable Quotes

• Bianca Marais: "Remember, it just takes one." [29:24]
• Lydia Hilzer: "The trick with writing emotionality and getting into that emotion is writing with truth." [27:19]
• Bianca Marais: "One giant curiosity seed... which is exactly what you want." [23:20]

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Support the Podcast and Featured Authors:

• Purchase Slanting Towards the Sea via Bookshop.org to support independent bookstores and the podcast.

Join the Conversation:

• For more insights on genre distinctions, listen to Lydia's previous appearance discussing her genre guide.

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This summary encapsulates the essence of the podcast episode, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners and those who haven't tuned in.

Transcript

[Unknown Speaker]

Foreign.

[Bianca Murray]

Hi there and welcome to our show, the shit no one tells you about writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency. Hi, everyone. We are welcoming back a guest today, this time in the capacity of debut author, which is incredible. Our guest is a Croatian novelist and certified book coach. Her writing has appeared in the New York Times and other outlets. After 10 years of trying cases before Croatian courts, she obtained a book coaching certification and has been working professionally with writers ever since. She lives in Zadar, Croatia, with her husband and two daughters. Slanting towards the Sea is her first novel. It's my pleasure to welcome Lydia Hilzer. Lydia, welcome back to the show.

[Lydia Hilzer]

Thank you so much for having me again.

[Bianca Murray]

Yes. And for our listeners, can you just give us a brief overview of what we discussed the first time? Because you gave us a very helpful genre guide and there may be new listeners. Listeners who'd like to go back and listen to that episode.

[Lydia Hilzer]

Yeah. So for the first time, I visited, I was a guest on your podcast in the capacity of the book coach, and I came to discuss my genre guide, which was a guide that discerns the differences between literary woman's fiction, upmarket fiction, that kind of thing. So we discussed that the first time around.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah. It was a great resource for those of you who've either forgotten about the episode or weren't listeners. Then go back and find it, search for Lydia's name, and you will find that episode. Right. So those of you watching on our YouTube channel, I'm holding up the beautiful cover of Slanting towards the Sea. It's just stunning. Lydia, who painted this, how much, say, did you have in this cover?

[Lydia Hilzer]

Well, it's a. It's a curious story because I saw this painting on Instagram before my book even went on sub. And it was a sponsored post and I don't follow any painters, so it was a weird thing that it even got on my feed. And I just immediately thought, oh, my God, if this book gets published, this has to be the COVID Obviously, you know, authors don't have a say, but this was my wish. And so I opened the person's Instagram profile and it said she was an artist living in Lisbon. But when I looked into her, it turned out that she also is Croatian. So that was a really a sign or something, I don't know. And so when my book sold and when the time came to discuss the COVID I sent in the painting, I did a little canva mock up. It was embarrassing, really. But I sent it to my editor and she loved it. And then she sent it to the art department and they loved it. And basically there was no other iterations. Like this was the COVID from the get go. So I'm really pleased. And after they cleared the rights with the artist, I sent her a message on Instagram and she ended up being in Croatia, near my hometown. And so last summer we met in Croatia. It was just amazing. Like a full circle moment.

[Bianca Murray]

That's amazing. It was clearly meant to be. And for our listeners, yeah, writers have very little say in our covers. So whenever we do get a say, that is amazing. So I'm going to read you the flap copy just so that you have context for what we're going to be speaking about. Spanning 20 years and one life altering summer in Croatia, Slanting towards the Sea is at once an unforgettable love story and a powerful exploration of, of what it means to come of age in a country younger than oneself. Ivana divorced the love of her life, Vlacho, a decade ago. They met her students at the turn of the millennium, when newly democratic Croatia was alive with hope and promise. But the challenges of living in a burgeoning country extinguished Ivana's dreams one after another, and a devastating secret forced her to set him free. Now Vlaho is married and a proud father of two. While Ivana's life has taken a downward turn in her 30s, she has returned to her childhood home to care for her ailing father. Bewildered by life's disappointments, she finds solace in reconnecting with Blaho and is welcomed into his family by his spirited wife, Marina. But when a new man enters Ivana's life, the carefully cultivated dynamic between the three is disrupted, forcing a reckoning for all involved. Set against the mesmerizing Croatian coastline, Slanting towards the Sea is a cinematic, emotionally searing debut about the fragile nature of potential and the transcendence dependence of love. Right, so Lydia is one of these authors who exemplifies good literary citizenship. Every single time we have a fundraiser on the podcast, or we're trying to raise money for something, or we need help with something, Lydia is one of the very first people to step up and offer her help. And this is something I would just like to celebrate and thank Lydia for. Because those of you who listen to the podcast know how strongly I feel about literary citizenship. How as writers, we should constantly be paying it forward, paying it backward, paying it sideways, and just helping as many people as we possibly can. So, firstly, Lydia, I just wanted to thank you for your excellent literary citizenship. Then I wanted to say that you started out as an author accelerator writing coach. Now can we first speak a bit about how learning how to critique other people's work, to see what works, what it doesn't work, how things might change, is actually one of the first steps towards becoming a better writer yourself.

[Lydia Hilzer]

Well, first, thank you. Thank you so much for mentioning literary citizenship. I feel strongly about that as well. And this is why I love the shit no one tells you about writing. But yeah, the editing process and working on other people's novels was really instrumental. Just discerning what works and what doesn't work. When you edit other people's novels, you have the ability to maintain the perspective of, you know, being outside the novel. And so you get to see where the book stalls or where it doesn't work well, or where you lose interest or where you need an emotional impact or something, which is not always the case with your work because, you know, you might think that you're doing something and you have that, like in no perspective of your own work, and then it's harder to kind of have that high level view of it. So it was really instrumental in learning how to write because I came to writing late in life. I was an attorney in law, working, you know, in my law office. And two times I got laid off because I got, you know, pregnant. I took maternity leave and I lost two jobs. And so I had to open my own law firm. And I sat there in my law firm with a lot of free time. Right. Because the business was slow in the beginning. And so this is when I started to write. And I started writing in Croatian and I finished the first draft in Croatian and I didn't know anything about craft of writing, showing versus telling, you know, what voices, what emotionality is, prologues and why you shouldn't use them or should, you know, none of that was in the back of my head. I just, I was just writing and thinking, you know, I just need to put one page after the other and it's going to come together. And so when it didn't, obviously, then you start looking into why. And this is where I started reading and writing in English. And so I don't have an mfa, you know, I'm not educated in anything literature related. So it was a steep learning curve because this was in 2019, basically when I started writing in English.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah. And I mean, that must present all of its own challenges as well. Just, you know, for our listeners out there. I've said it before. We spend so much time hoping to get critique on our own work, because we think that is what's going to make us better writers. And certainly getting critique on our work helps our story and helps us develop that. But the best way to become a better writer is to critique other people's work, is to sign up for the beta reader matchups, is to look at work and go, this is what works, this is what didn't. And this is why. Because then you're able to apply that to your own writing. Now, Lydia, you also said that you had an epiphany before writing this novel, and it was about why you weren't going to write books set in the US or the UK anymore. Can you take us through that? Because I think a lot of people struggle with the same thing.

[Lydia Hilzer]

Well, the first book I wrote, the book I was just talking about, I set it in the US Because I felt like, you know, I love writing quiet relationship stories, and it felt if I set it in Croatia, it would just be too loud. Like Croatia would, you know, with its specific setting, it would overtake the quiet narrative, and I would have to explain all these things, like how, you know, Croatia is similar to the US but also different. And so I sent my first book in the US and that was just disaster because I'd never been there. And it was just difficult to bring to life any setting that you aren't personally familiar with. And so when I started writing this novel, when I thought about writing the second novel, I said, you know, I just can't put myself through that anymore. And I decided to set it in Croatia. And when I did, the opposite of what I expected happened. Like, instead of trying to tune out Croatia, I actually ended up amplifying it almost to a point of being a character in the story, which is what I hear from my reviews, because being inside a country that's newly emerging, that's still finding its footing, that's. I mean, Croatia is an old country, but a new one as well. So it really paints your life in a very specific way, and it just is something that you reckon with every day. So Croatia seeped into my work much deeper than I originally thought. You know, I thought it would just be a setting. It ended up being something much more loud.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, it was one of the book's greatest strengths in a book that had many, many strengths, really bringing this place so vividly to life, like you say. So that setting becomes character. So this is, by all standards, a very quiet novel. And that's exactly what you said you like to do. You like to focus on relationships, which means interiority, which means dynamics, which means emotionality, rather than plot point. Plot point, plot points. Right. And we get asked all the time how to frame quiet novels in terms of query letters rather than talking about themes and vibes, how you could frame what the book's about while also making it clear that it is a quieter novel. So I thought it would be awesome if we could hear your successful query letter and learn a bit about your journey to publication.

[Lydia Hilzer]

Yeah. So my querying process was really fun. Fast. I had one referral from a friend to her agent, which didn't pan out. Literally. The second agent I queried is my NOW agent, and I queried her through a portal, which is, you know, I felt, no way is anyone going to read this. But I got a full request really soon and a flurry of other full requests from other agents at the same time. And within two weeks I got the first offer and then two more offers before I decided on my NOW agent. So it was a fast querying process after having like Multiple more than 100 rejections from my first novel. So I just want to say, you know, it's not a. It seems like a fast success or, you know, like quick way to get an agent, but it's built on the top of a longer period of working on my craft and on queries steep learning curve.

[Bianca Murray]

You learned very quickly, which is incredible.

[Lydia Hilzer]

Okay, so.

[Bianca Murray]

So can you read us that query later?

[Lydia Hilzer]

Yes. I just want to add that for a period of time when I was working on my query and before that I just had this like period where I would just listen to the shit. No one tells you about writing every time I made lunch. So it was just the messages you guys keep repeating on the podcast really influenced the way my query got to be. So this is my original queer letter. I will just say that I had changed the name of the novel during the process of preparing it for submission, so I'm going to read the new name. So, dear Ms. Walters, I'm submitting to you for your consideration. Slanting towards the Sea, a work of literary fiction complete at 91,000 words, spanning 20 years and shifting between past and present. My novel is part exploration of what it means to be a millennial in a country younger than oneself. Part meditation on the importance of being seen and a love letter to my hometown, Zadar, Croatia. It features an adult coming of age narrative similar to Lilly King's writers and lovers. A love story filled with longing in the vein of Madeline Lucas, Thirst for Salt and the love triangle and a strong sense of place reminiscent of Miranda Cowlich Heller's the Paper Palace. I hope it might appeal to you due to your interest in journeying through a lesser known world or subculture stories about intense, complicated friendships and the nuances of motherhood and how it informs a woman's identity at the turn of the new millennium. Ivona, freshly graduated from high school and eager to escape her difficult family, moves to Zagreb to pursue a university degree full of hope for the future of post war, newly democratic Croatia. There she meets and falls in love with Vlaho, an economic student with a tender heart and tragic past. They marry, but when they are at their happiest, a devastating secret upends their lives. Fueled by insecurities, Ivona divorces the love of her life, believing she is setting him free, when in fact she has built a cage around them both. A decade later, Laho is remarried and a father of two, while Ivona's life has taken a downward turn. Unable to move forward, she has returned to her childhood home to care for her alien father and salvaged his crumbling construction company. She finds solace in reconnecting with Laho, where she is readily welcomed into his family by his spirited new wife. But when a new man enters Ivona's life, the carefully curated dynamic between the three is disrupted. As the summer progresses, long kept secrets surface, causing irreconcilable perspectives to collide, and Ivona isn't the only one who will unravel in the process. I'm a writer based in Croatia. After over 10 years of trying cases before Croatian courts, I obtained a book coaching certification and have been working professionally professionally with writers ever since. Several of my clients have secured literary representation and signed publishing deals. I've appeared as a guest on several podcasts for writers, including the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. This is a very meta moment. I run a book club for writers with a membership of close to 100, and I'm an active member of the Women's Fiction Writers Association. Thank you for your time and consideration.

[Bianca Murray]

Sincerely, Lydia Feed okay, now let's hear a word from our sponsor before we dive into discussing that query letter.

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[Bianca Murray]

Okay, that was absolutely incredible, Lydia, because so much of what you wrote there was kept in terms of the flat copy which shows what a brilliant in terms of writing that query letter. Now one of the things I know our listeners are going to ask about is 91,000 words is quite long for a debut because most people get told 80,000 words. Did it end up that long? Did it end up longer? Was there any concern at all over the novel's length?

[Lydia Hilzer]

No, it was actually, you know, the number ended up in the contract so I was supposed to edit up until that number of words. So it was never a problem.

[Bianca Murray]

Amazing. And have a look at how Lydia did lean into vibes and themes. She gave us plot as well, but she was able to focus on vibes and themes, which is clearly something you're able to do when it comes to literary fiction. Look how many agents attention it grabbed. So that shows you that the query letter did its job. Now what I want to focus on now is even though this is a very quiet novel, I mean the way we begin is really quiet. We've got not much happening in the opening pages. We've got Ivana who needs to go to the bank to sort out things for her dad in terms of his business. It's not attention grabbing by itself by any means. But I want you to see how Lydia positions those opening pages. Will you please read the first page and a half for us, Lydia?

[Lydia Hilzer]

Yes, here we go. Sometimes I stalk my ex husband. I open his socials and sift through his photos. I know their sequence like I know the palm of my hand. Better even because I can never memorize what my palm looks like. How the lifeline twirls into the loveline. How it begins, tight and uniform, but then turns ropey. It scares me to look at it, to trace the lines, to see where they might lead me in years to come. But I know Vlaho's photos by heart. They start with the most recent ones. His son, who turns 6 in a week, frowning at a drawing of an imaginary monster. And his daughter, an angelic creature just short of war, with the kind of wispy hair that slips through your hands like corn silk. His lovely wife, a blonde with an oversized nose but gorgeously high cheekbones, laughing into the air on their sailboat. Once upon a time, he told me he didn't like blondes. He whispered it in my ear, brushing his fingers through my then long, lush hair. We'd been together for maybe a few months and I'd asked him what would happen when we broke up, if he would find someone like me or someone exactly the opposite. That will never happen, he said. Besides, I don't like blondes. Lie, lie. I always get stuck on a single photo. It's not a photo of their wedding day or the birth of their first child. In fact, it's probably the least spectacular photo in the album. They're not even the main subject. Whoever took it aimed for their daughter. In focus in the foreground. But behind, her mother is looking up as my ex husband is passing her a glass of juice. And they share the look. The one I used to be on the receiving end of. The one that had long ago made me feel like I was a pink diamond carved straight out of a rock. And it's for her. I remind myself that this was my decision. I let him go willingly. But despite reason, the image spreads through me like ink in cold water.

[Bianca Murray]

I get goosebumps hearing that. I actually have little goosebumps. Right. And then straight after this we have a scene break and then we go into. The first thing I hear in the morning is the clanks of the spoon. And we have a domestic scene and we have the father and the six clanks and her making her way into the living room. So a hugely domestic scene. Now, did you always begin with that opener, Lydia?

[Lydia Hilzer]

Yeah, actually it was the first 500 words that I. I was a part of a writing group and a friend said, let's share 500 words. And I wasn't working on anything back then. And so these words came out as they are. They were never edited. Almost every single word is the same. I just wanted to start with the feeling like basically get into a moment in this person's life and really like go into her feelings of loneliness and longing. Basically, yeah.

[Bianca Murray]

And that is one giant curiosity seed. So whenever we talking about curiosity seeds and those of you who are writing literary fiction or quieter novels, go, oh, but I don't need curiosity seeds. I've got beautiful language. And this is a quiet novel. And this entire opening is one giant curiosity seed. Because one, we get plunged into her interiority. We're like, why? Why would this woman leave the love of her life and punish herself this way? Why would she torture herself this way? And so, boom, we're already given the biggest curiosity seed that keeps us turning pages from then on continuously, which is exactly what you want. And that takes us through all these scenes of domesticity and all of her dissatisfaction with her life and how small it is. And we keep reading to be like, why the hell would you have done something like this? But like you say, it immediately sets up the mood, mood. And the line level writing is immediately there. So can you speak a bit about, for people who are writing in the genre, how important the line level writing is? And is that something that you polish over and over again? Do you write the novel then come back and try and polish it up? Do you write a chapter at a time, get critique, polish it up? What's your process there?

[Lydia Hilzer]

Yeah, so I just want to say something that I think might help some writers writing literary fiction, and this is probably coming more for me as a book coach than as an author. But in crafting literary novels, when they're quiet novels, what you're not doing with plot, you need to do with emotion. So when a reader would expect, you know, something to happen in a fast plot, fast paced book, this is where you need to strike with the emotion or with some kind of realization or intellectual, you know, truth in a literary novel. So they're quite in terms of plot, but they do reveal a lot of things. And this pang of realization is what keeps the reader engaged. So that's in terms of crafting the quiet novels and in terms of line level writing, I think it's a little bit of everything. When you're writing literary, I think a lot of what goes into the novel is based on how you write it on line level. So, you know, many times it will be. You can't really get into a chapter if you don't get the right sentence, which just opens the chapter up. You try to avoid, you know, this day X person was doing this on this day or something like that. You want to immerse your reader from the first sentence. And so it's Often the line level that makes the writing move forward, it informs your writing going forward. You will use a word or a metaphor and then it's going to propagate throughout the novel. But it's also true that when you finish up, then you go back and then you polish more. If you use the, you know, metaphor that's overused or a cliche, you will try to work to make it better. So it's a little bit of, of everything.

[Bianca Murray]

I think the follow up question that I have to ask, even though we're pretty much running out of time here, is in terms of replacing plot with emotion, what is your advice in terms of really drilling down into the emotionality of your character? I mean, you have nailed her so much that in opening pages, just in a brief scene, we know so much about her. Is it a case of sitting before you started writing and really getting to know her? I don't think so. Because you said you just quickly wrote this thing down. Was it that you wrote that down and then you were like, this woman sounds really interesting. I need to get to know her. Or did you get to know her through the actual writing? Because I think a lot of people can nail interiority, they can nail plot, but emotionality as it links to character is something that a lot of people struggle with.

[Lydia Hilzer]

Yeah, I think for me, she was like, when she appeared on the page, I already understood her. I understood her what Cece would call emotional makeup. Right. I understood what made her tick. I understood the kind of person she is. I don't know how that happened, like where she came from, but I understood her from the get go. And the trick with writing emotionality and getting like into that emotion is writing with truth. And I think this is something that writers struggle with a lot because they are trying to appeal to someone, they're trying to prove something to someone. They're trying to maybe, you know, they see a little bit of themselves in the protagonist and then they're trying to, you know, have people like the protagonist. And what this ends up doing is it ends up alienating the reader. It's kind of like whenever you're trying to force reader to feel something, they resist. And so what I was doing with, with Iwona is I would just like try to sink into her. Like I would try to sink into her mental state and just speak with truth. And if it's an ugly truth, if she's resentful, if she's hateful in a certain point, if she's, you know, any bad emotion, it's not just about good emotions. And I wasn't trying to make the reader think anything about her. I was just trying to lay out the facts and then leave the reader with it.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah. So what we have there again is it's not that you need your main character to be likable, you need them to be vulnerable and certainly relatable. And from the get go, you could feel, you could just feel her sadness. You could feel everything and relate to her instantly, which was incredible. So if you're watching on our YouTube channel, I'm holding up the book again, slanting towards the sea. We're going to link to it in our bookshop.org if affiliate page. If you buy the book there, you support an independent bookstore and the podcast at the same time. And if you've enjoyed this interview, go back and find the other one in which Lydia and I discuss genre. That was another epic conversation. Lydia, thanks so much for joining us.

[Lydia Hilzer]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Bianca Murray]

And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.