Shooting the Shit About Agent Scams and When A Book Is Truly Ready To Go

Summary

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Podcast Summary

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Shooting the Shit About Agent Scams and When A Book Is Truly Ready To Go
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra
Release Date: May 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Bianca, Carly, and CeCe tackle two urgent topics facing today’s writing and publishing community: the proliferation of agent scams targeting aspiring writers, and the ongoing debate about when a book is truly ‘ready to go’ on submission. They also dissect industry trends—like the surge in new book releases (hello, AI!)—and reflect on a viral, controversial quote about children’s books. Honest, energetic, and peppered with sharp industry insight, this is a must-listen for emerging writers navigating the contemporary publishing landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Agent Scams: Recognizing and Resisting Publishing Fraud

[05:11–10:12]

• Prevalence of Scams: Carly and CeCe warn that scam activity—like fake agents and editors impersonating real professionals—has exploded.
  • Quote: “The scams are really bad right now, guys.” — Carly [05:11]
• Common Red Flags:
  • Misspelled names and unofficial email addresses.
  • Immediate, overeager agent responses.
  • Referrals to supposed “manuscript critiquers” who charge fees.
  • Over-promising access to publishers.
  • Use of generic, AI-generated manuscript feedback.
• Real-World Example: Carly shares a sequence in which a scammer impersonated both her and an editor at Kensington, requesting a fee for a manuscript critique through a fake email.
  • Quote: “Except your email was C-A-R-L-I-Y Waters … with an I. First red flag.” — Carly [06:25]
• Tip for Writers:
  • Always verify agent communications via official agency websites or direct contact.
  • “Email the agency if you think this has been a scam ... don’t go blindly into anything.” — Carly [09:02]
• Positive News: Recent legal action led to a scammer being caught for a $48 million fraud scheme targeting seniors.
  • Quote: “People are getting caught. These scammers made 48 million dollars on this scam.” — Carly [09:33]

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2. Kids’ Book Controversy: “Too Many Books, Not Enough Readers?"

[10:12–17:36]

• Viral Quote: Mac Barnett stirred controversy by stating, “94.7% of kids’ books are crud.”

  • A subsequent apology acknowledged the quote was “hyperbolic and glib.”

• Hosts’ Reactions:

  • Bianca: Questions the notion of “too many” books, arguing for more readers rather than fewer books.
    • Quote: “We need more readers, not fewer books ... every book has a chance of reaching someone’s heart.” — Bianca [11:58]
  • Carly: Points to massive increases in titles, especially due to self-publishing and AI, while highlighting the increasing challenge of discoverability.
    • She references stat: new ebook releases rising from 100,000 to 300,000 per month post-ChatGPT.
    • Quote: “Two out of three new books are now AI slop.” — Carly [14:14]
  • CeCe: Puts this surge in context by comparing it to YouTube overload—emphasizing a world of endless content, noting AI accelerates this trend.
    • Extensive analogy with YouTube upload statistics.

• Implications:

  • It’s increasingly difficult for any book to find its audience in this “content overload” economy.
  • Privilege and importance of real human connection in publishing.
    • Quote: “This isn’t meant to be some AI story slop world ... we got into book publishing for that personal connection.” — Carly [17:31]

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3. Are Agents the New Publishers?

[17:38–29:48]

• Prompt: In response to Anne Trubek’s Substack, “Are agents now the real publishers—and are publishers making themselves redundant?”
  • Trubek suggests that agents must deliver submissions so finished that publishers become operational more than creative.
  • Quote (Trubek via Carly): “When an agent sends a manuscript to the editor, the book just needs to be about printer ready ... the publishers don’t shape the manuscripts, their work is less creative and more operational.” [22:10]
• Hosts’ Perspectives:
  • CeCe: Strongly disagrees, stating that while agents do more editorial work than ever, editors still creatively shape books—sometimes in significant ways (e.g., adding timelines, vision changes).
    • Quote: “All the work I do brings it up to a certain point ... the editor then ... takes over. It’s a passing of the baton.” — CeCe [24:09]
  • Carly: Adds that agents’ roles are constant through an author’s career, but the creative contribution of publishers is unique and essential for each book.
    • Quote: “The lift we do to get it to the book deal stage is very different than the lift that the developmental editor does, that the copy editor does, that the proofreader ... it’s a team effort.” — Carly [29:32]
  • Agents are “very editorial”—contrary to common misconceptions, their role isn’t akin to a real estate agent who simply sells a finished product.

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4. When is a Book Truly “Ready To Go”?

[Throughout, esp. 22:10–29:48]

• Industry Shifts: Agents are now expected to deliver submissions so polished that little editing remains for the publisher—a “Big Five” industry trend.
• Nuance: Hosts stress that regardless of how prepared a manuscript is, creative collaboration between agent, editor, and author remains essential.
  • Quote: “Because the nature of creative work means that it's never really finished or done ... it’s more about how we collaborate together.” — CeCe [24:42]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On why beginnings matter:
  • “No agent, no acquiring editor is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better ... it’s your job to make your opening pages irresistible.”
    — CeCe [02:15]
• The human element:
  • “We didn’t get into book publishing for that. We got into book publishing for that personal connection and working on books that really connect with humans, not humanoid robots.”
    — Carly [17:31]
• On team effort:
  • “We all got to be rowing in the same direction to make it happen.”
    — CeCe [29:44]
• On scams and dreaming writers:
  • “This is preying on people’s vulnerability and people’s dream of getting their work out there.”
    — Bianca [07:56]
• On the reality of the market:
  • “Standing out, having a unique point of view, having a chance to even reach people, it's going to become rarer and rarer ... but I think it is the reality.”
    — Bianca [17:07]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Agent scam stories and red flags: 05:11–10:12
• Mac Barnett’s kid-lit controversy & “Are there too many books?”: 10:12–17:36
• AI’s impact on book supply/discoverability: 14:12–16:27
• Are agents replacing publishers? 17:38–29:19
• What “ready to go” really means: 22:10–29:48

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

• Friendly and candid, the hosts balance industry skepticism (about scams, AI content, discoverability) with empathy, humor, and commitment to real relationships in publishing.
• Writers are reminded to be vigilant about scams, realistic about the publishing market, and proactive in crafting irresistible openings. Above all, creativity thrives most when agents, editors, and authors truly collaborate.

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Transcript

[Bianca Marae]

Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one for the summer, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 1st of June, with the matchup emails going out on the 2nd of June. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page.

[Cece Lira]

What's up everyone? This is cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled. And I wasn't surprised at all because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So, personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with hooks and of course, in my submissions inbox. But at the same time I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean, it's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible, to make agents crave it, to make agents want to read more. That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course. Starting it how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure that your story's beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the Best one, the best place to start and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things. When it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way. How to balance exposition and mystery. How to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory. And what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline. Most of all, I'm going to show you how to make readers want to turn to chapter two. Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepared to take lots of notes. We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques. Plus a super fun surprise that I can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with literary agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair.

[Carly Waters]

Hi, everybody. Happy Monday. Thanks for hanging out. You have Carly and CeCe here, and CeCe's been running around New York for many, many events, and she's gracing us with her presence. Everybody, we should feel. We should feel so lucky that cece is able to fit us into our busy schedule.

[Bianca Marae]

That is a very kind way to put it. Thank you for being so kind. Like, the train was late. I had to text you. You know, this to be like, I'm so sorry. I'm running late. I'm panting. It's. It's. Please don't watch this on YouTube, everyone.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I would like to go on the record saying that cece agreed that she should do fitness, she should do exercise, so that when she has to race through the city that she will be fit enough to record with us. This is just a reminder, guys, that we fit this in. Like, in our busy lives, our busy working lives. Like, we are usually on calls before or after reading things. We drop everything, you know, when we set aside our time to do this because we feel the responsibility to deliver you guys an episode every week. We. I don't know if you guys have know this, but we never miss.

[Cece Lira]

We never miss a week.

[Carly Waters]

We rearrange our schedules to make sure we make this happen for you guys. Because we care that much. Yeah.

[Bianca Marae]

And because it's so much fun at least it is for me. Yeah. So thank you, everyone, for joining us.

[Cece Lira]

Yes.

[Carly Waters]

Okay, so the first thing off the top today is. So, I mean, I've been talking about this on Substack. This has been obviously going around the different agent chats. But the scams are really bad right now, guys.

[Cece Lira]

Really bad.

[Carly Waters]

I had a number of people get scammed by a fake me, somebody claiming to be me, somebody impersonating me. It's fraudulent. And so I want to talk about a couple situations about that. And I had a friend who's an agent, and they emailed me saying, like, I know you have a big platform. Is there anything that you can do to bring more attention to how bad this is? And so this is me getting on my soapbox about this. Let's talk through some of the scams. Let's talk about. About red flags. Let's talk about what to look for. In case anybody hasn't heard of any of these scams, I'll give you an example of what. So this is somebody who commented on my substack. Cause I've been trying, as I said on Substack notes, you know, just doing whatever I can, talking about it on threads. So this is somebody who replied back to me on Substack. And they said, hi, Carly. A few days ago, I was contacted by someone impersonating Wendy McCurdy of Kensington Publishing. So I'm just going to pause here. So you're going to. You're going to see the chain of how this happens and how people kind of get sucked into these things because there's people impersonating multiple publishing professionals to kind of orchestrate this whole thing. Okay, so someone was impersonating Wendy McCurdy of Kensington Publishing.

[Cece Lira]

She said that she was interested in

[Carly Waters]

my YA novel, Diary of a Girl at the End of the World, and referred me to you to rep the deal. Except your email was C A R L I Y W A T T E R S. Oh, they misspelled my name. Mail.com. and this person says with an I. First red flag. The imposter. You immediately got back to me. Second red flag. I worked with Hollywood agents at AKA Big agents.

[Cece Lira]

Never get right back to you.

[Carly Waters]

The fake. You immediately referred me to someone to help shape my package for a fee. Third red flag. I don't know how many red flags we're at at this point. It was amateurish, but I imagine a lot of desperate writers fall for this scam. I was once contacted by someone wanting

[Cece Lira]

to access my screenplays.

[Carly Waters]

They pretended to be somebody at Netflix sent me a fake Netflix contract. I contacted the real person at Netflix, confirmed it was a hoax. Having lived in la, I can see scams coming.

[Cece Lira]

They still waste my time and are really annoying.

[Carly Waters]

I'm really sorry someone's been impersonating you, Carly. Later today, I'm going to inform fake Carly with an I that I have

[Cece Lira]

given their information to my sister, who's

[Carly Waters]

a special agent at the FBI. She is referring it to Cyber Crimes Division. Not really, but I'll make them think twice about trying it again. Yeah, so it's just such a bummer. This is an example, right? So they just. It looks like multiple people are kind of connecting you. Eventually they ask for money for these manuscript critiques. The manuscript critiques. And I've seen them. Somebody else forwarded me one of these scams and it's basically just like a ChatGPT quote unquote analysis of your manuscript. So, anyway, CeCe, I'm sure you've seen these going around. Any. Any further thoughts or.

[Cece Lira]

Or red flags we should be looking out for here?

[Bianca Marae]

I mean, just this week we got two emails from very helpful writers letting us know that someone was impersonating Wendy Sherman at WendySherman Associates, obviously my agency. And we even posted on our Instagram, you know, to let people know. And it's. I mean, I really appreciate what this person said because they said, yeah, it was amateurish, but she also has so much empathy for the people who are really eager to have a deal and to believe in good news. And so what makes me really angry, especially angry, because there's lots of things that make me angry, is that this is preying on people's vulnerability and people's dream of getting their work out there. Yeah, we hear all the time and we say it all the time. It only takes one. Yes, keep going. Good news will come. You just have to keep believing in your dream, and the good news is going to come. And this is like, remember that person we had on Deep Dive once who got picked by Oprah's Book Club and she thought it was a prank. Yeah, this was years ago, but, like,

[Carly Waters]

Jacqueline matured, you know what I'm saying?

[Bianca Marae]

Like, this. This is like I am trying to step into my optimism era, and the scammers are not making it fun. So, no, thank you, scammers. And, yeah, thank you to everyone who's sharing about this.

[Carly Waters]

I know somebody because I always say, also, like, email the agency if you think this has been a scam. Like, I just. I don't want anybody to go blindly into Anything. Right. And somebody called the agency saying, did Carly Waters reach out to me? Because I got this message and I just wanted to be sure. And it seemed like an elderly lady. And I called her back and I was like, no, that wasn't me.

[Cece Lira]

I'm really sorry.

[Carly Waters]

But there is some. I mean, again, we're in our optimism era here. There is some good news. There has been. People have been caught. This is a great story. So there's an article from the United States Attorney's Office, Southern District of California

[Cece Lira]

press release that came out last week

[Carly Waters]

that said, defendant pleads guilty and 48 million dollar nationwide book publishing scam targeting hundreds of seniors. And so you can read the full article. I know there's been some, some news about this. Basically, you know, it shows that, how people have been entrapping other people through this fraudulent behavior, but people are getting caught. But These scammers made $48 million on this scam. So we know how widespread it is. And as he said, preying on people's

[Cece Lira]

vulnerabilities, which is a bummer.

[Bianca Marae]

Yeah. I mean, happy that some people are getting caught, obviously, you know, doesn't change the fact that a lot of people are still getting scammed. But it is good news.

[Carly Waters]

All right, everybody. The next thing that we got sent to us was actually from a number of you, and I know that you guys know that we don't work on a lot of kid lit. We don't actually talk about that much kid lit on this show just because it's not something that we encounter that much in our day. But a lot of you sent us this Mac Barnett quote, and you guys know which one I'm talking about. The quote going around was 94.7% of kids. Books are crud. End quote.

[Cece Lira]

Mac Barnett.

[Carly Waters]

So, yeah, there's an Instagram from the account at Reading middle grade who really kind of got into it and had some thoughts about it. And I think it's an interesting carousel. And I will link to it so you guys can have a look at it. I mean, this person's like, you know, defends him a little bit. Obviously, it's rage bait. We're very aware of that. But I think it gets. I really like this carousel because it does get to the heart of the question, which is, is there too many books being published? And this kind of. This conversation comes around in different ways every year. And I obviously don't want to defend what Max said. I also want to share his kind of apology. So he said, thank you for the opportunity to respond first of all, I want to acknowledge the passage I wrote is hurtful, especially to people who work hard making books for kids. I understand why people are upset and feel betrayed and trying to make a point. I got hyperbolic and glib. I was wrong. I'm truly sorry. So anyway, he did apologize for that. But, CeCe, the heart of the question or the heart of the statement or the heart of the discourse, I think centers around, you know, how many books are published. What did you. What did you think when you. When you heard that or saw the discourse?

[Bianca Marae]

Yeah, I heard about it because you shared. Which. Which. Thank you. I don't know who this person is. I don't know who Mark Barnett is. Like, I don't know. Seriously, I don't know. I should know. Is he famous? Who is he?

[Carly Waters]

Yes, very well known kid lit author. Yeah.

[Bianca Marae]

Okay. No idea who this person is. Hello? Marv.

[Cece Lira]

Mac.

[Bianca Marae]

Mark. I don't know. Whatever. Whatever his name is. Like Big Mac. Okay. Yeah. I do not represent children's books. And I. I mean, my experience with the children's books has been like buying books for my friend's kids, my nieces and nephews, and reading to my nieces and nephews and God children, which is very limited experience. I just generally don't think there are too many books being published because what I think is we need more readers, not fewer books. And also the idea of, like, too many, I think misses the point, which is that every book is such a unique product and every book has a chance of reaching someone's heart. I understand the. Again, don't know exactly what he said or the context of what he said, but I understand the logic of, well, if a space is flooded and there's too much choice, then does that make it harder for things to break out? I get that. I just don't think that given that self publishing is a thing and given that content creation is so accessible to everyone, I don't think it's possible, like, the genie is not going to go back into the bottle, you know, we're not going to reduce the number of books, I think. So maybe it's just about reframing what makes for a successful book in people's minds. Maybe that's what it is a little bit, but yeah. How about you? What did you think?

[Carly Waters]

I had a lot of thoughts about this. As I said, I think it to. To me, the heart of the question is, are we publishing too many books? And we all know that there are so many wonderful books out there that there's just not A lot of ways for them to get coverage anymore. And so, I mean, there wasn't enough coverage for all of the wonderful books when we had a lot of print media coverage. And now we don't have a lot of print media coverage. So how are people finding out about these books? Right? And this is the whole conversation around, you know, pivoting to digital and social media and author brands and self publishing and everybody kind of being the digital entrepreneurs that they are. So. So yeah, and then there's obviously the whole self publishing thing. So we just, we know that there are just a lot of books out there. And so it comes back to the stats around the volume increase also of titles being published. I also shared in our little chat CC a thread post which kind of analyzes the increase of monthly releases of ebooks on Amazon, which I think is really interesting. So this person, their account is Alexandbooks on threads.

[Cece Lira]

So they said we went from 100,000

[Carly Waters]

new ebooks a month to 300,000. Thanks, ChatGPT. Basically, two out of three new books are now AI slop. And now obviously this is a visual medium, if you're watching this on YouTube, this is an audio medium, if you're listening to us on the podcast app. But there is a chart, and again, I'll link to this where you can see. So there's a chart that says units and then date, and then you can see there's a line of the, the year, the month that ChatGPT was released. And then all of a sudden you see the delta just completely flare on the uptick. So clearly there are going to continue to be more titles than ever. So this isn't just a traditional publishing thing. This is like the amount of content out there is enormous. And so is it publishing's responsibility, traditional publishing's responsibility to like pull back and you know, and fine tune these lists because we know that all of these

[Cece Lira]

books can't find readers. It's just not humanly possible.

[Carly Waters]

We just don't have enough hours in the day.

[Bianca Marae]

It's so complex, you know, like, it's so complex. It's such a complex subject because it's just definitely not an easy yes or easy no. Especially because to your point, I think you made a great point is this is not just a trad. Pub thing. In fact, it's not just a pub thing. Like, I remember reading that YouTube reported that over 500 hours of video are uploaded every minute. Minute. Okay? And this was again coming from YouTube. And think about it this way, like 500 hours versus 60 minutes, 30,000 hours of content. Right. Like every hour in YouTube. And 30,000 hours of content times 24 hours in a day. That's 720,000 hours.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Bianca Marae]

Per day. So if every single day, YouTube receives 720,000 hours of new content, that means that if someone wanted to watch the entirety of a single day of uploads, they would have to, like, watching 24 hours a day, which is not possible. Right. People have to sleep. 720,000 divided by 24, 30,000 days, or approximately 82 years. Like. Like one person. Yeah, like one person.

[Carly Waters]

Possible.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah.

[Bianca Marae]

That's not. And if they were to watch it, like, eight hours a day, that's 246 years. So YouTube uploads more content than a single person could watch in multiple lifetimes. Like, in a day. In a day. You know, so. And that's just the world we live in. We live in a world of, like, content overload. And again, with AI even more. Because now you don't even need a human to do it. The robots are doing it themselves. AGI even more. Like, it's gonna just do it. And so, yeah, standing out, having a unique point of view, having a chance to even reach people, it's going to become rarer and rarer, which is not what we. What I want to hear, what you want to hear, but I think it is the reality.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. And I think it just speaks to, like, what a privilege it is for, you know, the authors and the books and the work that we do when it really does connect with people. I really think it's such a privilege that, you know, when authors get to go on tour or they, you know, get to meet their fans in person. It really just brings to life how human this is. This isn't meant to be some AI story slop world. You know, we didn't get into book publishing for that. You know, we got into book publishing

[Cece Lira]

for that personal connection and working on

[Carly Waters]

books that really connect with humans, not humanoid robots. Yeah.

[Bianca Marae]

Yes.

Hear, hear.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

All right. Okay. So. Well, it wouldn't be a podcast episode unless we talked about a substack. So the substack that I wanted to talk about came across my desk is. The substack is Notes from a Small Press. The author, Anne Trubick. It was published on May 5, and I will link to it for you guys. Article is, are agents now the real publishers question mark? And are publishers making themselves redundant? So I saw this headline that's quite inflammatory, obviously, you know, and I was like, okay, this is a take. And I really had to sit with it. And I like I've been thinking about this for pretty much a week since we recorded last time or since it

[Cece Lira]

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[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Lira]

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[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Lira]

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[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Lira]

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[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Lira]

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[Carly Waters]

I I, you know, posted posted like a note on substack about it and then I saw and I was sitting with it and then I saw Jane Friedman also, you know, did a kind of a quote take a substack notes about this and so I want to pull out something that really stood out to me said as I've been working through these thoughts in the history of others who have had such thoughts better

[Cece Lira]

than and before me.

[Carly Waters]

I kept thinking of a phrase that a literary agent uses to describe the editing she does with clients before she

[Cece Lira]

sends a book out on submission.

[Carly Waters]

It goes something like before I send it out it has to be ready to go. That is, and this is a pretty big five specific phenomenon. The expectations are that editors at the press need a book to be done. When they get a query, they won't do much editing. There's so much competition. So when an agent sends a manuscript to the editor, the book just needs to be about printer ready, some copy editing and proofing, sure, but not much beyond that. But what does it mean for a book to be done when it has not gone through the publishing process? It means that what publishers do is not germane to the book itself. The publishers don't shape the manuscripts, that

[Cece Lira]

their work is less creative and more operational.

[Carly Waters]

So I mean, it's, it's a hot take, I think. You know, I never set out on this podcast to dis editors or say that they don't edit. That's never, of course, my intention. I just really think it's interesting when you frame it as how integral agents are to the publishing process. I mean, we know how integral we are to the publishing process. Do I think that I'm doing more work than ever to quote, you know, get it ready to go, end quote? I don't know. I've always put a lot of polishing into the work that I've done and I just want to read Jane Friedman's take from her substack notes. When I first started working in publishing, authors never asked what is the publisher for? But these days, when publishers say the manuscript needs to be ready to go, when authors hear that publishers don't reliably market and promote. When authors learn that most books sell on Amazon, et cetera, et cetera, everything debatable with some truth, then authors ask more often, and rightly so, what is the publisher for? Layer on top of that, how big publishers now sign successful indie authors for multi book deals. Because those authors have done the hard part. They figured out how to reach the readers at a proven market demand.

[Bianca Marae]

Interesting. I have not been sitting with this for a week. I read this today, the substack. I have not read Jane's take other than what you read to me. Up to me like you're reading it to me, you're reading it to our listeners. Sorry listeners, but I respectfully, very respectfully disagree with Ann. And Ann, I admire your point of view because I think that we need more people with specific and sharp point of views. And I definitely see where Ann is coming from. I do, I really do. But to me, while I was, while I was listening to you read that excerpt, here's here's my initial perspective, what Ann is saying makes sense, but I think the conclusion, like, I disagree with the conclusion because all the work that agents do to get something to be submission ready is so important. We are doing more work. This is true. I absolutely agree with that part. This, this is where you lose me though, you being Ann. I don't agree that publishers work is more operational and not creative because I have seen editors really, really edit and shape a manuscript both in fiction and in nonfiction. And these projects are projects that I also, as an agent, put a lot of work into because the nature of creative work means that it's never really finished or done. Like all the work I do brings it up to a certain point and then it's not that I get it wrong or I do insufficient work. The editor then is kind of like a passing of the baton. You know, the editor takes over. Like the author qualifies and they join this league, this league of like professional authors. And the editor, who's kind of like a coach of this league, this professional league, will take them even further. Doing a lot of creative work. I definitely don't think it's just pressing of a button. I agree with all the facts she laid out. The fact that it has to be super ready, the fact that it's super competitive, the fact that editors are truly very busy. But you know, in the substack she mentioned things like, you know, should the agents just set up their own publishing houses and just keep more of the money? And I know that she was, and she does mention this in the article. She, she was like, just sharing thoughts, right? Like, she's not, you know, she's super open to thoughts and stuff. She made that very clear. But I think to me that kind of like, I think it's more about how we collaborate together than about one person doing the work of the other. I truly do. And I think that that's just the nature of creative work. I, I remember when we did. I think it was our first deep dive and we, we were inter. Who was speaking? I'm pretty sure it might have been Sarah Canton at St. Martin's Press. And I think she was talking about. I don't remember what book she was talking about, but she was talking about a book where she had a vision for the book. And her vision was so specific that the author was adding a whole new timeline. And I remember a lovely, lovely person who was attending the deep dive saying in the comments, but hey, if the agent got it wrong and the agent didn't tell her to add A timeline. What hope do we have, we writers? And I'm like, you're looking at this the wrong way. The agent didn't get it wrong. Like that was a specific vision Sarah brought in through her world perspective. If it had been a different editor, an equally talented editor, they might have brought a different vision and that wouldn't have been wrong or right. Like that's just not how it works. You know, we're not solving a math. So I think, you know, to answer the big question of the substack, are agents now the real publishers? No. And are they making themselves redundant? I also don't think so. I see it differently, I think. But I definitely appreciate Anne's take.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I mean, I guess what I bump up against is in the long term view of many authors careers, they're going to go through many editors, they're going to go through multiple publishing houses. And in an ideal agent author situation, the agent is going to be the constant, you know, through it all. And that means that the agent then has to help them develop the new ideas, you know, work on the option project that maybe doesn't sell or does sell, and then move on to the next one. And the that's what we're paid for. Like that that's our job. And I don't think it replaces sure the publisher, but I do think that I appreciate maybe her pointing out how much freaking work we do. At towards the end of the article she said, there's a lot of threads I could keep pulling here, but I'll end by underlining how much intensive work happens between author and agent, especially when the goal is a big five contract. That's where a book is given a form, by definition a generic one. A manuscript can then be plopped into one of a dozen imprints. Do we need that imprint? I mean obviously we do because that's the function of the publisher, is to publish the book.

[Bianca Marae]

You know, I think what she ended up doing, maybe this was her intention, maybe it wasn't, was highlighting a huge misconception people have, which is that, oh, the editor edits, meaning only the editor edits. And that's not true. Agents are very editorial. Not every agent is editorial, but many are. Most that I know in fact. And you know, when, when someone thinks of an agent, they might think of like a real estate agent, like, like no one's going to help you build a house to sell the house. You know, that's not how it works. But yes, we do, we do a lot of editing and I 100% appreciate like her highlighting how much work we do, I just don't think it's in substitution. I. I think it is a response to a competitive market. But that just means that more work is needed, not that the work came all to the hands of or went all to the hands of the agent, if that makes sense.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bianca Marae]

But I'm still thinking about this a lot. A lot of thoughts.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, that one kind of sat with me a while. Like, again, obviously, we know how much work we do. And then I was really thinking, like, project by project. I'm like, you know, what is the lift that everybody does?

[Cece Lira]

And they're actually completely different.

[Carly Waters]

You know, the list we do to get it to the book deal stage is very different than the lift that the developmental editor does, that the copy editor does, that the proofreader. You know what I mean? There's just, there's so many layers to this, and it really is a team

[Cece Lira]

effort and we all got to be rowing in the same direction or make it happen.

[Carly Waters]

All right, folks, well, that is everything that we have for today is a short and sweet app. Cece is off to her next event and we will see you guys all again next week.

[Bianca Marae]

Do you know where I'm about to go?

[Carly Waters]

Where are you about to go?

[Bianca Marae]

To a cafe that has an amazing chocolate chip cookie to meet with an acquiring editor. So we can eat chocolate chip cookies and brigadeiros. I also have brigadeiras, of course. Yes. So, you know, lots of sugar.

[Cece Lira]

Lots of sugar cookie for me.

[Carly Waters]

And I will see you next week.

[Bianca Marae]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query Cece, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency. Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the beta reader matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one for the summer, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 1st of June, with the matchup emails going out on the 2nd of June. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page.

[Cece Lira]

What's up everyone? This is cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled. And I wasn't surprised at all because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with hooks and of course in my submissions inbox. But at the same time I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean, it's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible. To make agents crave it, to make agents want to read more. That's why I'm so, so excited about my upcoming course, Starting it right how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure that your stories beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the best one, the best place to start, and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things. When it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory and what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline. Most of all, I'm going to show you how to make readers want to turn to Chapter two. Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise, you'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepare to take lots of notes. Notes? We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques. Plus a super fun surprise that I can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.