Shooting the Shit About Cancelled Books and the Shy Girl AI Discourse

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Episode: Shooting the Shit About Cancelled Books and the Shy Girl AI Discourse
Original Airdate: April 6, 2026
Hosts: Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra dive deep into the hottest industry controversies: the recent cancellation of "Shy Girl" amid AI-authorship accusations, the rapid rise and complications of AI in publishing, widespread publishing layoffs and imprint closures, and the shifting landscape of both fiction and nonfiction in response to broader societal and industry changes. Laced with their trademark humor and candid honesty, the hosts debate issues of trust, legal risk, and creative authenticity, while highlighting memorable stories and citing key industry figures.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Spring Check-in, April Fools & Recent Reads

Timestamps: 00:02 – 09:17

• Lighthearted early banter about April Fools, family pranks, and the challenge of trusting (or falling for) pranks in a “dumpster fire” world.
• Hosts share recent book mail and current reads, reflecting enthusiasm for new and forthcoming titles—a segment that connects booksellers, agents, and authors with listeners.
  • CeCe raves about Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hochhauser:

    “This is gonna be one of my top favorite books ever. That is how much I loved this book.” (04:20 – CeCe)

  • Carly highlights incoming ARCs including Where the Sea Lavender Grows, Cleo Dang Would Rather Be Dead, and Midsummer Nights, emphasizing the ongoing excitement for new voices and the process of book launches.
  • General sentiment: balancing optimism for great reads with anxiety about the industry’s future.

2. The Shy Girl AI Scandal and Trust Breakdown

Timestamps: 09:17 – 23:58

Recap of the "Shy Girl" Timeline

• Carly summarizes the timeline (using Brooke Warner’s Substack) regarding the Shy Girl controversy:
  • Feb 2025: Shy Girl self-published, well-received.
  • July 2025: Hachette US buys North American rights, despite earlier use of unlicensed artwork.
  • Nov 2025: Hachette UK publishes edition.
  • March 2026: Hachette US cancels publication amid AI authorship allegations (sparked by a consultant, Thad McElroy).
  • Multiple Substacks and news investigations follow.

Discourse on Misinformation and the Erosion of Trust

• CeCe confesses confusion due to conflicting media reports:

  “I have read so much on this topic and I don't know what actually happened... There are so many articles on this topic... the author claims she did not use AI. That's an important piece of the information.” (11:52 – CeCe)

• Both hosts highlight how deeply the crisis centers on trust—not just in authors, but in publishers, media, and even AI-detection technology.

Ethics, Legal Nightmares, and False Accusations

• CeCe on the new fear for writers:

  “Now writers are living in fear of this unfair accusation, which is so messed up... I heard of a writer...who...has been inviting her top readers to join on Zoom... so they can eventually testify on her behalf if need be. This should be fun... But it's not fun or exciting. It's like, oh, I live in fear.” (15:03)

• Carly on the legal and workflow burden for agents and publishers:

  "If authors are going to be accused of things, then like, that's defamation, that's loss of revenue potentially for them, you know, if their books get pulled. So... huge legal component..." (17:28 – Carly)

• Both express skepticism about AI detection tools due to high rates of false positives, especially for neurodivergent writers or ESL authors.
• CeCe:

  “My advice, maybe it's wrong, maybe it's right, I don't know, is just stay away from the thing. Like stay away from it. Stay away.” (23:10)

• Both recommend extreme documentation (drafts, screen recording) to protect against false accusations.

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3. Industry Layoffs, Imprint Closures, and Staff Turnover

Timestamps: 27:21 – 33:16

• CeCe details the disheartening trend of layoffs and imprint closures:

  “...there have been so many layoffs this year. We've had Dial Books for Young Readers just close, just absolutely close. And like Roaring Brook imprint closed, too... reminds her of ‘08.” (27:40 – CeCe)

• They analyze contributing factors:
  • Impact of celebrity-penned children’s books on shelf space for debut authors.
  • Political pressures, underfunded libraries, and risk-averse business decisions.
  • Massive proliferation of titles:

    “More than 4 million books were published in 2025, an increase of 32.5% over...2024. Self-published works were responsible for most of the increase...” (30:10 – Carly)

• Growing instability with editor churn; importance of a strong agent relationship:

  "If you've been in publishing long enough, it's happened to you... your relationship with your agent as a writer is even more important because that is stability for you..." (32:49 – CeCe)

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4. Human-Centered Creativity vs. Robot-Speak, and a Future for Literary Fiction

Timestamps: 33:16 – 37:15

• Carly’s optimism for the enduring value of human expertise:

  “I just, for one of the many, many reasons, feel so grateful for the role that I have... my job is using my brain, talking to people. Potentially in the future, ...I can be replaced by a robot, but I really don't think a robot is going to have this much experience... in my working lifetime.”

• Both decry a future of “robot language” in communications:

  “If... we're just using robot language to reply to each other in emails, like, I'm going to throw my computer into the sun.”

• Carly predicts a resurgence in literary fiction:

  "I actually think literary fiction is going to be the thing that saves it at the end of the day...intentional choices have to be made...they are incredibly original pieces of work. If...readers feel like they are losing faith... they're going to want to turn to things that feel...really original..." (34:59 – Carly)

• CeCe argues that literary fiction’s depth and human vulnerability offer what AI cannot, and she expresses a commitment to “curation” over “censorship.”

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5. State of Nonfiction and The Need for Hope

Timestamps: 37:15 – 38:57

• Carly discusses nonfiction affected by the crowdsourcing of information and AI:

  “People looking for information can now easily turn to chatbots, YouTube, podcasts, and other free online sources… The nonfiction that's not really working right now... it's all doom and gloom, right?… We need the experts that are going to help us find a way out and find a way through this with hope and with joy.” (37:15 – Carly)

• Hosts agree: nonfiction that combines expertise with hope and joy is more necessary than ever.

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6. Good News: Union Wins at HarperCollins

Timestamps: 38:57 – 40:05

• CeCe concludes with positive news:

  "...the HarperCollins union ratified a new contract... starting salary of $52,500 for a 35 hour week, which again is the highest in the industry..." (38:57 – CeCe)

• Carly highlights wider implications:

  “...that will help raise [pay] across the board... so let's pay our people well.” (40:04 – Carly)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On writer paranoia:
  “I would be recording my screen every time I type. Like it would be... I might install cameras... again, paranoid person. No one listened to me. Like, my level of paranoia is off the charts.” (23:54 – CeCe)
• On detecting AI in submissions:
  “I don’t actually think I, as a literary agent, have the right to do whatever I want with submissions... what am I going to do with that information? Say I go buy this AI detection software... 90% perceived to be written by AI... what do I do with that information?... I’m not going to go out accusing authors.” (19:32 – Carly)
• On literary fiction’s future:
  “To be a writer is to wrestle with the human condition. And how much more wrestling can we do? I think there's still so much more to uncover... and it'll be really cool to see literature in the future doing that.” (37:01 – CeCe)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• April Fools, Book Banter, Recent Reads: 00:02 – 09:17
• "Shy Girl" Backstory & AI Authorship Discourse: 09:17 – 23:58
• Publishing Layoffs & Imprint Closures: 27:21 – 33:16
• Creativity, Humanization, Literary Fiction’s Role: 33:16 – 37:15
• Nonfiction and the Importance of Hope: 37:15 – 38:57
• HarperCollins Union Victory: 38:57 – 40:05

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Takeaways for Emerging Writers

• The industry is facing major trust issues due to AI and misinformation.
• False AI accusations are now a genuine fear for writers—document your drafts!
• Publishing is consolidating and shrinking in some areas; relationships with agents are a vital source of stability.
• Despite everything, there’s optimism for books with depth and authenticity—and for human creativity to ultimately prevail.
• Nonfiction that inspires hope and joy is in demand.
• There’s real progress for industry workers with union victories and rising minimum salaries.

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This episode offers a candid, sometimes sobering but often hopeful look at the challenges and resilience within publishing. Whether you’re an aspiring writer, curious reader, or book industry insider, the themes of trust, creativity, and adaptation are illuminating and timely.

Transcript

[Carly Waters]

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. Hello, Cece, it's nice to see you.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

After our week off, as I made an Instagram reel about. It was quite a week that we. We didn't choose to be off necessarily, but that was our bye week, which for you non sports people means take a week off. That is a sports term, I will admit, but.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. How are you doing?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And since I haven't seen you, I

[Cece Lira]

thought that was a sports term. I thought you made it up. I thought it was a good. No.

[Carly Waters]

Interesting.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

No, it's like when you're in a tournament or you're doing a round robin.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I don't know. With. With your sports things against the various teams, your buy is like your week off.

[Cece Lira]

Interesting. I thought it was a Carly thing. It's still a Carly thing. But yeah.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Too much happened. Too much happened. It was a lot. It was a lot.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Oh my gosh.

[Cece Lira]

I feel like we were texting each other like all the things and what a week. What a week to be off. But today is April 1, though, which means it's April Fools. It is. I know it's not airing on April Fools, but we are recording on April Fools. Do you partake in April Fools? Historically? Have you?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I was just looking back through my Canva, you know, how like, you know, I make images for social media. I was like, I thought I did a good April Fool's one time on Canva. Sometimes I'll recycle Canva posts. And I went back and I found one that I made for the podcast account like 3ish years ago. And any longtime fans of. Of the pod probably remember this, but I posted early in the morning on April 1st, like the. It was like kind of a multi page carousel and it's like big news. And then the next carousel is like

[Carly Waters]

the shit no one tells you about.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Writing has changed our stance on prologues. We now we. We've we've just. After immense reflection, we have decided that we are actually in favor of prologues. We were wrong all along and we will now only accept submissions with prologues. Anyway, it got a few people, but most people were like, oh my God. I knew it was a, you know, April Fool's right away, but I'm not traditionally very good at it. I kind of forgot about it. My kids tried to punk me this morning. They have this, like, robotic list. They have multiple robotic things, but they have, like, robotic lizard that climbs on the floor. They also have, like, a robotic bug that climbs on the wall. So they were, like, trying to get me with the robotic insects and lizards. Oh, that's cute.

[Carly Waters]

Aw.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Babies.

[Cece Lira]

I know they're not babies anymore, but I think as long as kids are little, I call them babies.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, they're smaller than you. Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

I'm. I'm terrible at April Fools. I always fall for the jokes and the. I'm like, I never realize it's April Fools. I. I remind myself every morning, it is April Fools. Do not believe things. And I'm always like, huh? What? I always forget five minutes later.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So I didn't see very many good ones today. I don't know if it's because the world is just like, you know, the dumpster fire that it is. People are like, we don't need to cause more chaos today. So, you know, there was. There was that. But I just want to give a brief overview of the topics we're going to cover today, and then I want to know about what you're reading right now.

[Carly Waters]

We have a lot to cover.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

We have a lot to talk about with AI.

[Carly Waters]

One of the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The running joke now on the show is, like, we can't go a week with, like, can we go a week without talking about AI? And then it was like, we cannot go a week without talking about AI. Then we will definitely not go five minutes, probably, especially this episode, without talking about it. So we have a lot to talk about regards to AI. We also need to talk about different closures of imprints and publishing and kind of like, layoffs that have been happening. We have three on the docket to talk about today, and there's been some interest, Instagram threads. I don't know how much time we're gonna have today. We might run out of time. But I also wanted to talk about nonfiction, the state of nonfiction, a little bit. And if we don't get to that today, that's gonna get bumped to next week. But what are you reading right now, Cece? I know we were talking before we hopped on to record that you're not sleeping very well. So are you reading if you are not sleeping?

[Cece Lira]

Yes, always. I'm always reading. I wanna get the author's name, because I know the title of the book, but I don't know the author's name. And we're trying to practice name linkage. I Just finished. Oh my God. This is gonna be one of my top favorite books ever. That is how much I loved this book.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Okay.

[Cece Lira]

I' so it is called Lady Tremaine.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

I was excited about it when I saw the announcement for it. And the author is Rachel Hochhauser. I hope I'm pronouncing Rachel's name right. It's. It's like a Cinderella reimagining from the evil stepmothers. There's air quotes around this perspective and it is brilliant. It is pacey and plotty and fun and commercial and, and deep and intelligent and filled and makes you prompts you to ask interesting questions. Like, it is so good. Like I am completely obsessed with this book and it's going to become one of my all time favorites. I just know it. I just know it because when I finish a book that's really, really, really good, something happens inside of me where like my favorites kind of slot into place, you know, like. And I'm completely obsessed with it.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

It's so, so good. I'm imagining that happening. My client, E.J. dixon, author of One Bad Mother, did a launch event with Rachel for Lady Tremaine. So it's an interesting linkage of and Bad Mother Lady Tremaine because EJ did it in conversation with the author I

[Carly Waters]

think a couple weeks ago.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So I love when our book worlds collide. Yes. Yeah, I got a book. Great delivery. I got. Well, firstly, I got to show you my great deliveries that I've got. I've been making some Instagram reels. I try to every time a box, you know, client box gets delivered, I get arcs delivered and I get finished copies delivered obviously of all of my books as well as things that I order. So yeah, I got a great stack here right now. So this book, where the Sea Lavender Grows. Kitty Johnson. This book is an Amazon first reads pick today, April 1st. And so anybody who is a subscriber to First Reads can pick this up. Otherwise everybody else can grab it on May 1. So this beautiful box just got delivered. The finished copies of Cleo Dang Would Rather be Dead just got delivered.

[Cece Lira]

So I haven't made my video a couple weeks, right?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

On the 14th.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah. And anybody in Toronto, I will be at the launch. If you go to my's page, Mai Nguyen is my author. Cleo Dang would Rather be Dead. If you go to her page, it has all the information about her launch event in Toronto downtown on April 14. I will be there. And yes, we got our beautiful finished copies which looks amazing. And Mai is also going to be doing an event with me in Ottawa. We're bringing her up for the Ottawa Writers Festival, May 13. So anybody in Ottawa, please come to that event through the Ottawa Writers Festival.

[Carly Waters]

And you can also see me there.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Another beautiful book. I got the arcs for Midsummer Nights. This is the retelling. Oh, I already told you guys about this one. Yeah. This is my retelling of Shakespeare, so I've been keeping this nearby. Whenever I do editor calls, I like to have my books nearby because when we're on zoom, so I like to kind of hold them up. Yeah, for sure. And our arcs for love, Wells Kept, which is the final book in the Wells Ranch series, which is.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, a little bit sad.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So this one's coming out in the summertime, so we got our arcs nice and early. But this one is about our rancher gets a traumatic brain injury, and he

[Carly Waters]

doesn't remember his family and has to

[Unknown Speaker 1]

kind of fall back in love with, you know, his wife and his child again. And so it's, like, really deep and obviously very emotional. And I love my cowboy series, and

[Carly Waters]

they're all, you know, have this extra

[Unknown Speaker 1]

layer of heart and family. So that's my huge stack that I have beside me that I've been sharing with editors.

[Cece Lira]

Love it.

[Carly Waters]

It's a lovely stack.

[Cece Lira]

Arcs are the best. Arcs are the best. Yeah. It's just the coolest thing to get an arc.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I know. It is. You're like, wow, this is gonna be a book soon. And for fun, I started reading. Well, I go through. I always do the. I look through the kind of award lists, and the women's prize for nonfiction shortlist was announced probably one or two weeks ago, and I kind of scroll through, like, I don't know what's gonna catch my eye. But a really great book did, which was Art Cure, and it's all about the science of art therapy. So it's like art and science together in one book, which I'm loving. Really good. So I'm really enjoying that. Called Art Cure. And, yeah, that's kind of what's.

[Carly Waters]

What's in my head right now.

[Cece Lira]

That's really cool. I want to read that book now. Arc Cure. It sounds awesome. My next read is also going to be an arc. I got the arc for the shampoo effect by Jenny Jackson. Oh. So excited to read. I loved Pineapple street, and I'm really excited for this. There's this thing that happens to me. I'm so dumb. Whenever I read a second book by an author that I really, really Loved. I'm always, like, afraid to start the second book because what if I don't love the second book as much? With Ashley Audrains, the push this happen. Like, I adored the push so much. And then I was, like, about to read the Whispers, it was also an arc, and I'm like, what if I don't love this as much? Who cares if I don't love it as much? Ashley's not gonna care.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

No one's gonna care.

[Cece Lira]

But I am, like, actually afraid. There should be a word for it.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Anyway, so I loved the Whispers and just as much as the Push. It was so good. And again, I'm so excited to read the Shampoo Effect, but because it's me and I'm governed by fear, I'm like, oh, my gosh, what if I don't love it as much as though. As though that matters to anyone but me.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah. Yeah, I've already pre ordered that one, so maybe I'll steal your arc when you're done. But yes, it's already on its way to me. Emma Straub's book. I also pre ordered that one. So, yeah, lots of, lots of great stuff coming out as we move into the spring and summer reading time. Okay, so let's kind of get into things we have to talk about today. So I don't even know where to start at this point with all of the AI conversations, just because anybody who has been following all of the publishing news is probably familiar with a lot of it. I also know that some of you guys aren't as glued to your screens like I am, so that maybe we should give a little precursor to kind of what happened. So I do want to run you guys through a little bit of factual information about some of the things that we're talking about. So there was a book which again, you might have heard about, heard about by now, called Shy Girl author Mia Ballard. And this book was canceled because of suspected use or, you know, depending on the way that you read it, proven use of AI to create or co create the text of the book. So I'm going to run you through just a quick little recap of the timeline in case, again, people aren't familiar with the entire story. I'm grabbing this timeline from Brooke Warner's substack because she did such a great job of kind of summarizing it writerly things with Brook Warner. She said, how could this have happened, happened? And I'm going to give you guys the recap from her article. So February 2025. So we're going back a whole year here. 2025 shy girl was self published and according to Brooke, well reviewed, you know, well received. Had 5,000 ratings on Goodreads, an average of 3 1/2 stars, according to the New York Times. July 2025 despite knowing that the author lifted the artwork from Wynn Lewis for her self published edition, which is a whole other side story worth looking into, Brook says, because speaks to the author's lack of regard for ownership, Hachette US buys the North American rights to Shy Girl. So we're still in 2025. November of 2025 Hachette UK publishes its edition with a new cover March 19th. Now we're moving up to the present March 19th Hachette US with yet another variation on the COVID announces its canceling publication of the North American edition, set to come out in April. And now is when you probably are relatively caught up. If you've been reading the news, there was multiple New York Times articles about this. There was a walrus piece. You know, I don't even know how many substacks were written on the topic. Cece, did I miss anything? How does that sound? Did I get it all right?

[Cece Lira]

I will be honest with you. Part of what I was going to say when we talked about this is, yeah, I am confused on the facts. Like, okay, I'm not saying I have no opinion on whether you're right or wrong. Like, I hope you're reading off the article. I am confused on the facts because I have read so much on this topic and I don't know what actually happened. The author claims she did not use AI. That's an important piece of the information.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I think at one point she does admit to it though.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, I think she says the editor she hired used it, but not her. If she admitted it, I missed that. I guess that's part of what There are so many articles on this topic and I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent person and I'm still confused over what happened because it's so hard to get facts straight in this flooding of information world we live in. Anyway, what I'm saying is. I am listening. That's what I'm saying.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, no, I, I totally agree. And I think, you know, there's a lot of tangents we need to go off on in regards to this, but the fact that there is so much misinformation or half information, half baked thoughts, I'm also confused a little bit about. So one of the reasons this came to the attention of the New York Times was because of a writer. And I don't even know if they call themselves a journalist, but this writer, you know, came forth saying, I put this through AI software to figure out, like, AI identifying software to figure out whether this had AI in it. Because there were so many reports online and on Reddit and on YouTube about this potentially being AI. And then they brought all of this reporting to the New York Times. This person is Thad McElroy, publishing industry consultant, is how they describe themselves, to my knowledge. You know, they're a writer. Yeah. So that's the part that I'm like, okay, but did the New York Times, like, verify all of this? Did Hachette just react to the fact that the New York Times was coming out with this big expose and then feel like they had to react by pulling it? Clearly, Hachette wasn't out in front of the information, or they were waiting to see if all of this, you know, kind of came to light. Like, it's. All of. It's very confusing. Like, a publisher would never intentionally try to get themselves in a legal situation. So it's just very strange.

[Cece Lira]

It's very strange. And I think that amid so much that's happening and so much content being produced by it, the thing that really sticks with me is how much of all of this is about trust. We live in a world where trust is eroding little by little, like, almost every day, and so on so many fronts. And I experience it personally. I know you do, too. We as humans, trust is a big issue in our world right now, or lack thereof. And trust in institutions like publishers. Publishers need to vet the books they publish. Trust in media outlets, how much fact checking is happening, Are sources being given credit. And trust, of course, in authors, too. And the part that most breaks my heart, I'll be honest with you, the thing that most stands out to me is writers have it so hard as is.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I know.

[Cece Lira]

And over the years, things have been getting harder and harder. Declining readership, huge number of new books being published. It just keeps increasing and increasing. Publishers grabbing more rights, attention spans declining. So much competition with social media and other media formats. Like, there's just. It's just so hard to be an author. And then we decided to add AI to the equation because the world apparently wasn't hard enough. I kept thinking about all the threats that AI could bring, and now there's a new one that I didn't even think to consider, and I should have, which is an author could be unfairly accused of using AI. Like, an author who has never Touched. AI could be unfairly accused because the detectors are not reliable. At least they don't seem to be. And people could be accused of doing something they didn't do. Now writers are living in fear of this unfair accusation, which is so messed up. Like, so messed up. I. I heard of a writer, published author, I should say, who, to avoid any potential AI allegations, has been inviting her top readers to join in on Zoom, I think, while she writes, so that they can eventually testify on her behalf if need be. Like, a writer who's doing that should be doing that because she wants to give her fans, you know, a sneak peek into the behind the scenes. This should be fun. It should be exciting. But it's not fun or exciting. It's like, oh, I live in fear. So I'm inviting people to, you know, eventually one day be witness to what? Like what?

[Carly Waters]

Like that.

[Cece Lira]

That's just terrible.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, no, I have a lot of thoughts. I started actually working on a substack about it because I was like, I need to organize my thoughts on this. I wasn't going to write about it. And then, like, the dialogue, the discourse will not die. So by the time this episode comes out, my substack will be out. I have tentatively called this book publishing has an AI shaped PR problem on its hands. In an age when institutional trust is at an all time low, I don't know how we're going to climb out of this AI hellhole. And so there's a lot that you touched on that I definitely have touched on in my draft. I think one of the things this, like the allegations that writers might face to me, is also a very serious legal issue. And I am not a lawyer, so none of this is legal advice. If authors are going to be accused of things, then like, that's defamation, that's loss of revenue potentially for them, you know, if their books get pulled. So, like, there's a lot. There's a huge legal component to this

[Cece Lira]

that I think is the immense mental toll. Right? Like, the toll.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Absolutely. Like, yes.

[Cece Lira]

That destroys a person.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[Cece Lira]

What. What is happening?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I know. Yeah. I have so many notes. I'm like, you know, the del. I get into the deluge of it, all, right. Like, just the amount of volume we're gonna have to deal with. I think a huge offshoot of this problem is going to be that readers will not trust us, consumers will not trust us. I don't know if this is happening to you, but friends are texting me, like, a book and they'll Be like, hey, this book is published. But like, is this written by AI? They are now living in fear. They don't want to their 20 to $40 on something that's written by AI that's not interesting to them in the witch hunt piece of it. All, right, like, you know, Mia Ballard was a black debut author. She's the one that we end up coming down on. I mean, saying we as like the industry and all this discourse. Right. Of all the cases to come down on, this is the case that's getting so much attention. That's really curious. Yeah, I think, I don't know, it's going to be really hard to get out of this for a number of reasons. You know, publishing being so chronically understaffed

[Carly Waters]

is a huge issue.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Like, who's gonna pick up the slack here with the fact checking in the editing? Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I worry about young agents who are looking at tons of content, not knowing how to sort through it all. How are they going to know what's AI or not? Are we gonna all have to buy this Pantagram software and run things through it? But I always think, what am I going to do with that information? Say I go buy this AI detection software, say I run things through it. I actually don't ethically think I, as a literary agent have the right to do whatever I want with submissions. I don't believe that. I don't believe that when things come into me that I can just run them through any software. I believe that they live in my email. I look at them, I review them, and then they kind of move on through the Internet. You know, maybe that's another legal conversation. But, yeah, I just. I don't think I have the right to do whatever I want with people's work and then say something does come up. 90% perceived to be written by AI.

[Carly Waters]

What do I do with that information?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Like, I'm not going to go out accusing authors.

[Cece Lira]

Is it even Because.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

No.

[Cece Lira]

What? My understanding, again, too much information about that out there, not enough clarity. My understanding is that there are lots of false positives. And I'm not saying every, every time it flags that it is a false positive. I'm just saying false positives exist. Right. And that's scary. Like, my understanding is that neurodivergent writers and people who speak English as a second language are particularly vulnerable to false positives. And that is extra, extra scary. So, I mean, you're saying, oh, I could, I could do this, but then I can't because it's not my right to run it through the software. Is running it through the software even something that would help you know?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Exactly. Like what protections are we looking for? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think the answer is more human. Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Yes. And the one thing I will say is that a few weeks ago you and I were discussing the whole Claude is the new Fabio, and you very intelligently asked, like, I wonder if we're in a bubble. I wonder if readers will care if something's written by AI And I think we have the answer to that, at least for now. Readers will care. Obviously, every reader feels differently. Every individual is different. We do not live in Pluribus, thank goodness. But yeah, it seems like a lot of people care. And that's something that came out of this very wild situation.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. And I talk about Jane Freeman's hot sheet all the time, which is not called the hot sheet anymore. What's it called now? It's called the.

[Cece Lira]

The Bottom Line. The Bottom Line.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Someday I will get this right before she even published her bottom line, she wrote this big sub stack note. You know how like you don't just have to write a substack post, you can also write a note which is kind of like a long thread anyway. She had so many great questions. One of the questions she had or one of the kind of comments she had was, I don't think Hachette fully understood the level of AI use in the book. And I'd be truly surprised if the editors and leaders did know about the level of AI use in the book and just thought nobody else would notice. I agree. Like a lot of times when people are picking up self published titles. Mm. There's not a huge editing process that happens. It's like run it through a style guide, you know, for the organization. You do a copy edit often. But because the book exists out there, there's not a lot of changes that usually happen because they don't want multiple editions of the book out there. That's not the goal. So the idea is a very, very light hand. That's the goal. So yeah, I don't actually think people were actually in there in that sense.

[Cece Lira]

I'm just, I continue to be deeply confused by everything that happened and just listening. Yeah, like I'm still in the gathering, processing, listening stage. It's. It is a lot. It is a lot that's happening to our world and it's scary.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah. And we also talked about, you know, our previous episode about how, you know, things can't be copyrighted if they're not. If they're not written by a human. Right. And that just continues to complicate the process here. Right. Because does that mean that publisher. Because we've seen a lot of publishers picking up self published titles. Does this mean that publishers are going to pick up less self published titles? Because maybe there's not protections on them because if they're written by AI, then they can't copyright them. And then we'll go down that whole rabbit hole. I'll be interested to see if we're still seeing the same amount of self pub books bought and kind of flipped over to TRAD because I think that that's going to make some people really nervous and agents will have to vouch for that. Right. And there's a whole other conversation to be had here, but what's the agent role in the process? How are agents talking to their authors about AI? That's a conversation that many people are having behind the scenes.

[Cece Lira]

I have a definitive guide on AI use with my clients. Yeah, I have an actual document that's good. It's really short. No, it's really short. All it says is don't use it.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, I was gonna say.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, it's like one line. Yeah, it's like a little picture of me.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Going like this. Don't do it. Like I'm joking. I don't have a guide. But my point is like I just. If anyone wants advice on what to do about AI, my advice, maybe it's wrong, maybe it's right. I don't know is just stay away from the thing. Like stay away from it. Stay away.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

What is there to gain? You know, like I've had this rant before, but like, what is there to gain by using it? Right. If you want to be a writer, you have to do the hard stuff. There is no skipping the hard stuff. You have to do the work and the documentation, you know, the showing multiple drafts. I understand why writers would do that. Honestly, if I was an author, I probably would do the same thing. I'd be saving my drafts and folders that are labeled and timestamped and put an external hard drive if you're actually really scared about things.

[Cece Lira]

I would be recording my screen. Like that is how paranoid I am.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Exactly.

[Cece Lira]

I'm a crazy person. I would be recording my screen every time I type. Like it would be. And I might install cameras. Like I. Again, paranoid person. No one listened to me. Like, my level of paranoia is off the charts. So I don't like this.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

All right, well, we're going to put a pin in AI for a very, very short break. A word from our sponsors we head

[Carly Waters]

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[Unknown Speaker 1]

All right, we are back, and we're going to talk about some closures of imprints and layoffs. Not really the fun stuff, obviously, to talk about, but it is nice to kind of, I don't know, bookmark it, parallel it against the first half of the conversation we just had about AI. So, Cece, do you want to run us through some of the closures?

[Cece Lira]

Yeah. When you were talking about how publishing houses are, you know, understaffed, people are overworked and don't have the time or the resources to do everything they have to do. In the AI discourse we were chatting about a couple minutes ago, I just kept thinking of how it's only going to get worse. I decided I was going to be an optimist, and life is not making it easy for me. I had decided I was going to be an optimist. Like this. This is, like, this is. Whatever this is. My life is ironic, but it's. It feels like it's going to get worse potentially because there have been so many layoffs this year. Like, we started the year with layoffs on the adult side, nonfiction. And we talked about that. And then there were layoffs at wme. Right. Like, which. Which I know is a different part, but it's still entertainment industry. And then we've had dial books for young readers just close, just absolutely close. And like Roaring Brook imprint closed, too. And all my friends who are. Who specialize in kid lit, they are really sad and really worried. And one of my friends said that this reminds her of 08. I don't know how true that is, not in the sense of her feelings, but in the sense of in 08, there was also a massive crisis happening in the stock market. And I don't know how much of these things go hand in hand, but the fact that that's even something that's crossed her mind is really scary. It's just disheartening to see, like, jobs being lost in an industry that needs more people, not fewer people.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, it's, it's. Yeah, it's really hard. Especially when a single pocket of the industry gets hit so hard with the Roaring Brook and the Dial. Like, you wonder what coordination was happening. And those are completely different publishers, but, you know, you just wonder, like, what's in the water, the tea leaves that have been read or just the reports that have been coming through in terms of BNN not stocking that mini kid book. Kid lit books. Yeah. You know, this might be a popular or unpopular opinion, which is like the celebrification of kid lit and how every celebrity has their picture book in their middle grade series. And that space eats up a lot of the bookshelf space. And it's just really hard for debuts.

[Cece Lira]

And there's also a political component, right?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Totally.

[Cece Lira]

And libraries being underfunded and I don't know, because I can't possibly know. I'm not at the top making any decisions. But how much of this is coming from a place of, hey, let's not stir the pot, let's just fold imprints instead of fighting back because, you know, billionaires rule the world. It's just, again, I was going to be an optimist in 2020.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that's. That's really tough. One thing that, you know, semi related to that also is just the number of units of books that have been published. There's a quote from Jane Friedman's Bottom Line that said Bowker, the agency that issues ISBN. So ISBN is, you know, the code that's connected with the book. In the United States, reports that more than 4 million books were published in 2025, an increase of 32 and a half percent over the previous year 2024 self published works were responsible for the most of the increase, which grew from two and a half million to three and a half million. Remember that Bowker only reports on titles published with ISBN, so the number of titles on the market far exceeds that amount since Amazon in particularly it doesn't require an ISBN for an ebook. All that to say like so many more titles flooding the market, consumers are, you know, just getting a fire hose of content and books. Less people staffing all of these books, which just means the people who are doing the work at the publishing houses have a lot to contend with, right? And tons of self published titles out there refer back to the first half of the conversation about are these written by AI or not? There's a lot of questions here about the future of content.

[Cece Lira]

So many questions. Editor turnover has been scary. I don't like it.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yep, it is tough. There were some really solid threads going around and I saved a couple of them. Cece, I don't know if you kind of checked them out, but just talking about the editor turnover and what it's like when an editor leaves, you know, oftentimes it will be halfway through your book. You know we've talked about this before on various elements of this podcast, whether it's on the shooting the shit side or whether it's on the books with hooks side. But it can be really hard when when you lose your your editor. Rachel Cargle is an author and posted on 19 March I've been speaking with authors, so I'm with major publishing houses about the experience of high turnover with their publishing teams from editor to marketing lead. Is this something you experienced? And then tons of just like bestselling authors with blue check check marks are kind of chiming in. You know, it's just really tough. Nicole Walter said yes, the editor I signed with left in the middle of the process. I had another editor through the end who also left shortly after pub day.

[Carly Waters]

I was told this is common.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

My team was lovely though, and I'm grateful. Like the revolving door is so hard for people just to feel like settled and kind of understanding the mission of the imprint. And there's just a million reasons why this is so tough and we both experienced it. Roxanne Gay said, yes, I've lost editors three times. Like it literally happens to everybody.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, it happens to everyone. If you've been in publishing long enough, it's happened to you. And sometimes even if you've been in publishing for five minutes, it's happened to you. It's something that it underscores the importance of agents. Like, obviously, I have this perspective. I'm an agent. I'm super biased here. I recognize that. But the fact that there's so much turnover on the editor's side means that your relationship with your agent as a writer is even more important because that is stability for you, if you have a good one, of course.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, I know. Exactly. Right. To me. I mean, and coming back to this whole conversation that we started with about AI, and I know a lot of people are worried about their jobs. We talk about AI, we're talking about layoffs, all these things. I just, for one of the many, many reasons, feel so grateful for the role that I have. And I've spoke about this before. I feel so grateful that I have a thinking job. You know, my job is using my brain, talking to people. Potentially in the future, I'm sure I can be replaced by a robot, but I really don't think a robot is going to have this much experience. Knows how to do contract, knows how to do creative, knows how to do the business, understands project management. Someday that robot will exist, but I don't think in my working lifetime. And I feel really grateful that I get to use the expertise that I have. I made a comment on Substack on and my threads about the idea where, like, if for the rest of our working lives we're just using robot language to reply to each other in emails, like, I'm going to throw my computer into the sun that will. Like, that is the exact opposite of what we got into this business to do. Let's pick up the phone more, let's zoom more, let's see each other at events. Because I don't want to use robot speak, you know, AI, you know, Grammarly fixed words to reply in emails, back to people when we should just be

[Carly Waters]

using the way that we speak.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Like, the biggest flex is going to be little things like tiny spelling mistakes, you know, like those little. That's like, oh, that person made that grammar choice. That's really interesting. It's like those little inflection points I think are going to humanize everything. And I actually, I'm going to positive theory. I actually think literary fiction is going to have a comeback. And I've talked before about, like, what I think is really going to, quote, unquote, save the business. And it's just I've been speaking about, like, really original books.

[Carly Waters]

I actually think literary fiction is going

[Unknown Speaker 1]

to be the thing that saves it

[Carly Waters]

at the end of the day.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Because we've talked so much about genre fiction, all of its pros and cons. But with literary fiction like such, intentional choices have to be made about character, about structure, about everything. And they are incredibly original pieces of work. If at the end of the day, readers feel like they are losing faith in the institution of publishing, they are going to want to turn to things that they feel originally really original, or

[Carly Waters]

else we're going to lose them.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Right? They're not going to want to spend their 20 to 40 bucks on a book.

[Cece Lira]

They really aren't. And, you know, I think this reminds me of. Of the importance of knowing what you want and what you want to read. I personally don't believe in censorship. I don't believe that I have the right to tell anyone what they can or can't, can't do or write about. You know, if you want to write about xyz, you go ahead and do it. It is none of my business. I do. However, while I don't believe in censorship, I believe in curation. I want to choose what I read. I want to choose what I consume and what I digest. And I am not interested in consuming works written by AI I am. It's just not for me. If it's for someone else, then that's. That's their decision to make. And I think that what's really brilliant about what literary fiction can bring to the table in this age of distrust is AI was trained by obviously being fed all sorts of literary works that exist from all sorts of genres and categories. And there's an element of interiority and vulnerability that the greats can achieve that very few authors can do, even brilliant authors, commercial authors. And there's something to be said about, you know, really diving into the human psyche. The parts that we keep completely hidden, the parts that you can't analyze by analyzing human behavior, the parts that you can't detect by looking at what we do. And I think that will be really interesting too, you know, how so much of the works that might stand out in the future will be peering behind the parts of ourselves that we aren't even prepared to look at yet. And that beautiful, talented, amazing authors will. To be a writer is to wrestle with the human condition. And how much more wrestling can we do? I think there's still so much more to uncover. Like, I think there's so much of the human psyche that still has. Still can be explored. And it'll be really cool to see literature in the future doing that.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Totally. Yeah. I want to pivot to non fiction For a little bit. I think a lot of our focus here has been on fiction, non fiction. There's a really interesting article in the New Republic that came out on March 23, written by Paul Ellie. The non fiction publishing under threat is more important than ever. And there's just been so much talk about everything that we can get on the Internet. There's a quote from the article that said people looking for information can now easily turn to chatbots, YouTube, podcasts, and other free online sources. And so I actually had a call with an editor from a big five on the nonfiction. Well, she actually did. She does half fiction, half nonfiction. But we were talking about nonfiction specifically, and she was talking about a couple books that did really well for them and why she thinks with again, all of this coming down on nonfiction, why those ones particularly did really well. And she said it's a mix of stuff. Serious but joyful or serious and hope. Like, we can't really be all doom and gloom right now because again, that's everything we're getting from the news. A lot of fiction readers want escapism, but with non fiction, it's like, you want that information, but you need that joy and you need that hope. And like, that's the reason that we're coming to nonfiction. And it reminds me of the book that I was talking about off the top, which is Art Cure. You know, it's like, it's the mix of art, it's a mix of science, you know, the knowledge of art therapy, the science of art therapy, and how it all works. And so there's things like that where I think there's still much, so much to be uncovered on the nonfiction side, but we really need a path out. The nonfiction that's not really working right now is just like, it's all doom and gloom. It's all doom and gloom, right? Because it's like, well, yeah, we can get that information from anywhere. But we need the experts that are going to help us find a way out and find a way through this with hope and with joy.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, absolutely. Hear, hear. So we will end on good news. In the hopes of restoring optimism to my goals, the HarperCollins union ratified a new contract, and they secured the highest starting pay in publishing. And that is wonderful, wonderful news. Do I think the starting pay should be even higher? Absolutely, I do. Everyone does. But it is still good news. It's good news that not too long ago, I believe they had the lowest pay of the big five, or it was something similar to that. And now they have the highest and that is a wonderful thing. So the new contract mandates a starting salary of 52,500 for a 35 hour week, which again is the highest in the industry. There's also other great benefits too. Like all covered employees will get annual pay increases, time and a half for overtime. Employees at the beginning of their careers can work up to three hours of overtime per week without priority approval. So yeah, it's, it's actually really, really good news and I'm excited about that and very, very proud of, of the work that they've done and grateful that they are fighting the good fight because it is hard work to do and thanks to them, everyone's lives are going

[Carly Waters]

to be a little bit better.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Totally. And that will help raise across the board. Right, because that will help competition with the other large publishers. So we love to see it. Happy about that. So let's pay our people. Well, that's kind of all we have for today, guys. So thanks for hanging out with us. It was, it was jam packed. We look forward to hearing what you think. You can also head over to my substack the weekend rant because I have posted a lot of my thoughts there

[Carly Waters]

on this topic as well. And we'll see you over there.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Bye everyone.

[Cece Lira]

Bye.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query Cece, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency.