Shooting The Shit About Changes to the NYT Bestseller List and Editors Allegedly Using AI

Summary

---

Episode Summary: Shooting the Shit About Changes to the NYT Bestseller List and Editors Allegedly Using AI

Podcast: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Hosts: Carly Watters & CeCe Lyra
Date: April 13, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into three hot topics impacting the publishing industry: the latest changes to the New York Times Bestseller List, swirling rumors about editors using AI (like ChatGPT) to assess manuscripts, and a revealing survey of 2025 debut authors’ advances. Co-hosts Carly and CeCe bring their characteristic candor, industry savvy, and humor to unravel what these shifts mean for writers, agents, and publishing pros.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Changes to the New York Times Bestseller List

[09:39–17:37]

• New Audio Lists & Discontinued Categories:
  • NYT has added two new lists: Audio Children’s Top 15 and Audio Advice, How-To & Miscellaneous Top 10 to reflect the growing prominence of audiobooks.
  • The monthly mass market paperback and weekly paperback nonfiction lists will no longer be published; these books can still appear on the combined print & e-book lists.
• Industry Implications:
  • There’s a lag between industry trends and NYT changes—hosts feel the audio lists were overdue.
  • These new categories might favor celebrity or influencer-driven books in audiobooks, particularly in "Advice/How-To" (“This is essentially going to be the podcaster celebrity category, right?...That’s obviously very important to think about. They’re really just promoting things that maybe don’t already need promoting.” – Carly, 13:06)
  • Opaque metrics: Discussion around where NYT pulls audiobook sales data from (Audible? Libro.fm?) and the limitations of current tracking systems beyond Bookscan.
  • The discontinuation of mass market lists and waning support for this format bums both agents out. (“Mass market is tied to mass readership…and I can’t help but think, and I know that it’s in decline…Can we please have a world where we have lots of mass market?...That’s what I want. I want to get in a time machine.” – CeCe, 16:07)
• The Curation Factor:
  • The NYT list remains “heavily curated,” not simply reflective of pure sales numbers but editorial discretion and mysterious selection processes.
• Key Quote:
  • “It is not simply X, Y, Z in sales and then you’ll make the list…There are certain books they will consider and certain books they won’t. It’s curated.”—CeCe, 12:42

---

2. Editors Allegedly Using AI to Assess Manuscripts

[21:39–34:31]

• The Article:
  • Bookseller (April 2) alleges some editors are uploading confidential manuscripts into ChatGPT to “read” them quickly before traditional assessment.
  • Opens a broader conversation about the use of AI and text-to-speech tools (like Speechify) industry-wide—not just by editors but agents as well.
• Security & Ethics:
  • Major Concerns: Manuscripts uploaded to open AI platforms pose confidentiality and IP risks; there’s potential liability for editors and their publishing houses.
  • Internal (closed) AI tools differ from open platforms like ChatGPT, but boundaries remain blurry.
  • “Editors uploading confidential manuscripts into ChatGPT or other open AI platforms in order to help them quote, ‘read’ books quickly is not responsible behavior given the security risks…But disturbingly, conversations over the course of London Book Fair have indicated this seems to have become a widely adopted practice.”—Carly (quoting Agent Gordon Wise), 25:20
• Contractual Gray Areas:
  • Raises the need for clear “AI clauses” in agency and publishing contracts, but acknowledges scientific/nonfiction works may explicitly use AI as part of their content and research.
• Industry Realism:
  • Both hosts agree the growing ubiquity of AI is almost impossible to fully police in contracts or workflow:
    • “There’s no app that’s like, ‘We’re not using AI.’…Literally every app that we use. And so…no part of any workflow of anything that they touch is being used by these things.” – Carly, 31:15
  • The blurred lines between work and personal tech use, and the steady erosion of outrage over privacy, are noted as part of the “era of acceptance.”
• Cultural & Generational Change:
  • “Pretty soon this is going to happen with AI. There’s going to be a whole generation that’s like, yeah, I remember life before AI, but not for the purposes of knowing how to live without it.”—CeCe, 30:25

---

3. Debut Author Advances: A 2025 Survey Breakdown

[34:31–39:50]

• Survey Highlights:
  • Sample: 60 debut authors, 2025, traditional publishers (primarily US, some UK).
  • Advance breakdown: 20% received no advance; about 8% (adjusted for multi-book deals) landed a $100k–$250k advance; only 2% topped $500k.
  • The analysis adjusts for two-book, three-book deals by calculating advance per book, producing a much starker picture of pay.
  • “No advance, meaning an advance of $0, came out to 20% of those 60 people and an advance of 100,000 to 250…came to 15%. Now this is where it gets interesting. There’s a second pie chart…if you look at the advance per book, the number changes significantly…” – CeCe, 35:33
• Trends & Nuance:
  • Most $0 advances came from small presses, but even some Big Five digital-first imprints may offer little to no advance.
  • Comparative market effect: US advances tend to be higher than UK; sample skews US (60%).
  • The study also breaks down other important data like character and author diversity, adding needed transparency.
• Recommendation:
  • The hosts encourage listeners to read the full Substack by Emily Zips for a nuanced, candid look at the realities of debut advances.

---

4. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Book Covers:
  • The hosts gleefully discuss a client's visually-striking cover:
    • “Pink and the green and the yellow…Tonally, it’s perfect!…As an agent, sometimes the covers come in and you’re like, this is not the cover—but this one they just nailed.” – Carly, 03:00
• On Industry Resilience & Change:
  • “So much work could go into this…and then you get to the 11th hour and then it’ll be like, nope, we’re not picking this up…But, you know, the odds are not great.”—Carly, on optioning to TV/movies, 07:30
• On Addiction and Technology:
  • “It is an addiction…Even as I say this, a giant voice inside my mind goes, stop telling people not to buy books. I’m not saying that! People, please buy all the books!”—CeCe, on dopamine and compulsive reading/buying, 33:37; 34:10

---

Notable Timestamps

• 00:00–03:26: Warm up, book launches, what the hosts are reading
• 07:00–08:55: Top secret news: client adaptations for TV and Times Square billboards
• 09:34–17:37: NYT Bestseller list changes, industry implications
• 21:39–34:31: Bookseller scandal: editors & AI, ethical/contractual dilemmas, tech addiction
• 34:31–39:50: 2025 debut author advances survey – major findings, data context
• 39:50–40:31: Wrap up; encouragement to buy books (even if you don’t read them all!)

---

Takeaways

• The NYT Bestseller List is changing, reflecting the ongoing rise of audiobooks but diminishing visibility for mass market and paperback nonfiction.
• AI is complicating the editorial and agent workflow, raising new ethical and legal questions—while also proving almost impossible to extricate from the modern publishing ecosystem.
• Debut advances remain modest for most, with only a tiny sliver of new authors making “life-changing” money.
• The publishing landscape is shifting fast—authors and industry professionals need to be nimble, informed, and a little skeptical.

---

For More

Want the granular details on debut advances or literary market trends? Check out the Emily Zips Substack (as recommended) and follow The Shit No One Tells You About Writing for weekly, agent-eye views into publishing’s biggest debates and latest gossip.

---

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with literary agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. Hello, everybody. You got Carly and CeCe here today with lots of juicy stuff to talk about. You know, we should have placed a wager on if we could ever go a week without talking about AI. It was kind of a running joke for a while there. Now it is very clear, very clear that we will not ever be going a week without talking about it unless we are not recording. And it is that simple.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think anyone would have taken that bet, though, like.

[A]

Or they would have been like, what are these agents even talking about in terms of the modern publishing landscape? But we've got some fun things. Things to talk about today. This kind. I'm not sure if this looked under people's radar or not, but the New York Times has made some changes to their bestseller list, which I think we have to alert everybody to. It kind of went, as I said. I'm not sure if it went a little bit unnoticed. I think the news went live the week before Easter, so I think it slipped under the radar a little bit. And then we got. I know I got a lot of DMS about this. I'm sure you got a lot of DMS about this, which is the editors using AI internally to assess manuscripts. Bookseller article. And we're going to talk about that. So we've got lots of. Lots of things going on. And then we have a really interesting breakdown. On Substack, 60 debut authors were involved in a survey about the breakdown of their advances and things like that, which is really juicy and interesting. So you. You want to pay attention through the whole episode. We got lots of good stuff going on. But, Cece, I know you are making your monthly pilgrimage to New York next week. What do you have on tap for that?

[B]

Oh, gosh, I have a really fun book launch on Tuesday. I'm not going to plug it in because it's sold out, or else I totally would. But then I also have meetings. Just meetings, meetings, meetings, lunches, drinks. You know how it is. And as an introvert, it's both really challenging for me, but at the same time, like, really fun, because I discovered, I've said this before, that talking to book people does not drain me in the same way that talking to regular people does. Like, it's actually Quite energizing and lovely. Like, I'm still tired by the end, but it's like one of those worth it tired. I imagine it feels like it's what, the equivalent of going to the gym for healthy people, where you're like, you know, feeling good about yourself at the end. I wouldn't know. But, yeah, I have lots of fun meetings and yeah, really excited to go. How about you? How do you. What are you doing next week?

[A]

So you will be in New York? I will be in Toronto because my client Mai's book is coming out.

[B]

Yay. Cleo Dang would rather be that. Can we talk about what a great cover that is?

[A]

It is a great cover. It is.

[B]

Oh, my God. The pink and the green and the yellow and it's like. And I know what the. So, like, tonally, it's like, it's perfect. Like, what a great cover.

[A]

The Wedding People vibes, right where the Wedding People cover, where she's kind of like going under in the water and then has her champagne glass and up in the air. It's that like this character on Cleo Dang cover is horizontal. So you're like, is she sleeping? Is she okay? Is she just laying there? But kind of also has these bright yellow socks on and the colors are so bright and vibrant. Anyway, they nailed it. You know, with like, as an agent, sometimes the covers come in and you're like, this is not the COVID but this one. They just nailed it. They did such a great job.

[B]

So was it from the first try?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is it like first round?

[A]

Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, publishers usually have things going on behind the scenes that we don't see. But this was the first, right?

[B]

The first one you saw? Yeah. Yeah. That's exciting. Go my. Go my. I'm proud of her and I'm sorry I can't go. I'm now sad.

[A]

But yeah. So the event, the actual launch event is Tuesday. For everybody that's listening when this comes out live, which is Monday, so Tuesday, tomorrow the 14th. It is an open launch, so anybody can come. So anybody who is in downtown Toronto that wants to come, Simon Schuster Canada is asking that people rsvp. But you can go to my's Instagram at by M A I N G U Y E N which is like by my Nguyen. Go to her Instagram. You can see all the information. But I will be there and it's going to be a wonderful, wonderful time. And I also made a note of what I'm reading because I feel like we don't talk enough about what we're reading just for fun right now. I grabbed Evening and Weekends. I hadn't read that one. That came out a couple years ago, set in the uk. I'm really excited to dive into that one. And my copy of American Fantasy, Emma Straub's novel just arrived. So that's kind of what's on my bedside. Tbr. What are you reading right now?

[B]

So I just started yesteryear, which I'm really excited about. And I had yesterday, actually a client. We were on Zoom, and this is a shared client that I have with Wendy. And our client client was like, hey, so I have a new project, actually, I have two. And like, one's dystopian, one's romance. And she was like, which one should I send first? And I'm like, just send both. Like, I want to read both. She made both of them sound so good. Like, not every author can pitch their own work.

[A]

Totally pitch their own work. Yeah.

[B]

Especially, like, in a casual call. Like, she hadn't prepared or anything, but she was like, she nailed the pitches. And I'm like, really excited to read them both. So I have both of them on my Kindle. So coin toss. I don't know which one I'm going to start. I think I'm going to probably do the women's fiction with romantic elements first, because I actually said that wrong. It's women's fiction with romantic elements and dystopian. So I think I'm going to do. Because it's nice and sunny out, you know, we're trying to make spring happen. So I think I'm going to start with that one first. I love reading on my Kindle. It's. It's really good for the readability aspect of it, which does matter. Like, I like the feel of a book because I read an ebook so much.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So I read. And I do mean. Sorry, when I say Kindle, I mean my Kindle app. Oh, yeah, Kindle app on the iPad. Because I have an iPad. But I read so many ebooks that to me, Honestly, for over 15 years now, most of the books I read are ebooks. And so the feel of a book for modern CC has become an ebook. And so when I'm reading on my Kindle app, I really love it. It's so great. So I'm excited about that. And I always read in the evenings. I'm always watching TV with my husband for an hour in the evenings. And then I tell him, you have to go to bed early. Early for us, we're Night owl. Because I have a lot of reading to do. So then I go to bed and I read and it's the best.

[A]

Yeah. And then you. You never sleep because you're always reading. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah. The problem, I can't read on an iPad. I've done the iPad thing before, but I just find the. The technology piece sucks me. And it's like this app and then you can switch to this. And I love the Kindle, the physical Kindle. I have the scribe, which has a pen so I can annotate it makes me feel like I'm in work mode. So that when I'm doing other things, I don't know, it helps compartmentalize it for me. Interesting. Yeah. And I wrote in our notes today, we're pretty organized today, Cece, I'm going to give us a pat on the back. I wrote in our notes today, I have some top secret news that.

[B]

Wait, should we do drum rolls? Drum rolls for top secret news.

[A]

Okay. Number one top secret news is I have a client book that is an adaptation for television and it's like been humming along. Humming along, humming along. We're going to find out in November if it's going to be green lit. So I know this is still a while away and I have to wait till a lot of good vibes. Yeah, it's just when, you know, all the good season is and things like that. So everybody sent me lots of good vibes because I know you all want to see my clients work brought to life on the silver screen. Yeah. Finger fingers crossed, everybody, for that to happen. You know, we never know. I have been lucky enough to have works turned into television and movies and you just never know. Like, I think I've talked before about the percentage of books. I think I've done like 25 options and like I've seen two things made, you know, like the odds are not great in terms of getting things done. So we're, we're at the, the home stretch here. And the hard thing is so much work could go into this in terms of like the vision and everything. And then you can get to like the 11th hour and then it'll be like, nope, we're not picking this up. You're like, okay, great. Yeah, we just put, you know, tons and tons of work into this. But. But yeah, anyway, so everybody keep your fingers crossed. For me, the second piece of top secret news that I have is that I am going to get my second client billboard in Times Square.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Those of you who've been listening for a long time know that my client, Jane Healy, had a billboard in Times Square for women of Arlington hall, which was great. It's so exciting to see.

[B]

And you got to see it. And that was so cool because I. Oh, you shared a picture. Oh, you shared a picture on. On stories, but it wasn't you.

[A]

And.

[B]

Okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

[A]

Drove down from Boston to see. I was honestly so tempted to get on place. I was like, I. And I might actually do that for this one. And I don't know, just something like, if you were an author and you're like, I have a billboard. You're gonna go see the thing.

[B]

Gotta do it. Yeah.

[A]

So as the agent, I'm like, by proxy. I really want to see the thing. So I. I might have to go see it. But anyway, so my client, my second Times Square billboard is. Is gonna be happening, so that's really exciting. Anyway, so that's all my top secret news. Yay.

[B]

Fun, fun, fun. You can't tell us who yet, right?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay, so it's top secret news and top secret curiosity seeds.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Keeping you guys listening to the pod. No. And all of you guys buy my client books anyway, so I don't have to convince you I have excellent taste. Everyone knows.

[B]

Everyone knows.

[A]

Everyone knows. Awesome. Okay, so should we get into what we're going to talk about today? Where do you want to start, Suzy?

[B]

I don't know. Should we start with the list? The New York Times list being updated?

[A]

Yeah, why don't we start with that? So, as I said, I think this flew under the radar a little bit. So, you know, there's. I. It's not only that I want to talk about the announcement. I also want to talk about why the announcement was, you know, made and how we can give you some context and some behind the scenes, potentially about what is going to be featured more than others now and how that communicates some of the different trends that are happening within the industry, the consumer marketplace. So I'm going to read from the New York Times website announcing updates to our bestseller lists. So they're introducing some new lists and they're, quote, better positioning others to reflect shifts in the bookselling industry. End quote. So they're basically, like, going to be cutting some of the lists. So here we go. So this went live on March 30. So it said, with audiobooks making up a larger share of how people consume books, we are broadening our audio offerings by adding two new lists. Audio children's top 15 and audio advice. How to a miscellaneous top 10. I have a lot of thoughts about that. We'll come back to that. These editions round out our coverage of the audiobook segment, which currently includes audio fiction and audio nonfiction, and reflect the Times goal to publish lists that cover different formats through which readers and increasing listeners purchase books. Second paragraph. To better align with current market trends, we will cease publication of our monthly mass market lists and the weekly paperback nonfiction list will shift to monthly mass market and nonfiction paperback books will continue to be eligible to appear in the combined print and ebook lists, the overall lists. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like that is kind of bombshell news and we can get into all the layers of all of this. Like, what was kind of promoted above other things, what's getting canceled or, you know, demoted, obviously. Where do you want to start? Which one jumped out to you?

[B]

I mean, a lot of thoughts, like you said. I mean, my first thought was a little late to the game with the audio. I'm glad they did it now. I really am. Like, adding. Adding things. I'm glad about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, you know, audiobooks have been kind of, kind of a thing for a while and kind of a massive thing for a while. So I would have hoped to. To see it. And I'm glad they did it. The thing about the, the thing about the New York Times list is that it's so, like, it's so shrouded in secrecy. Like, it is not a situation. It's every author's dream. Everyone I talk to goes, yes, and my dream is to become a New York Times bestselling author. And yet people don't quite understand how the chances of getting in are very, very, very small. Like, I forget what the actual statistic is, but there was one time, an article, a great article that broke it down and it was something like depressing, like 0.00, whatever.

[A]

Oh, I was going to say it's like point something, something, something. Yeah.

[B]

Lots of zeros and then a number and then. But, you know, more to the point, though, it's not just the numbers game. As in, I don't know, like, if you qualify for the Olympics, like. Yeah. Chances of you running that fast is 0.001. But you know, if you do or if you don't, because you either run that fast or you don't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In this case, it's also like, there are certain books they will consider in certain books they won't. It's curated. Right. And they don't hide that fact. It's not, you Know something that people. People deny or anything, but I don't think people realize it that much. Like, it is not simply X, Y, Z in sales. And then you'll make a list also. It depends on. On the week and all that stuff. So I found it to be interesting. What were your thoughts?

[A]

Ooh, lots of thoughts. All of what you said is obviously true. If you're a longtime listener to our show or our socials, you know, all that information about how the Times list is very heavily curated. What I think is super interesting about the audio piece, a couple things. I don't even know where to start. My brain's just buzzing. Okay, let's talk about the fact that they are creating the audio advice how to a Miscellaneous. This is essentially going to be the podcaster celebrity category, right? This is. This isn't going to be for the kind of average person, right? Because this is going to be audio of people who have done an advice how to a Miscellaneous, which is always the kind of like influencer type of category, right? So that's obviously very important to think about. They're really just promoting things that maybe don't necessarily already need promoting. The other thing this makes me think about is where are they getting all this audio data? Because we know that most people have a subscription to Audible, have a subscription to Libro fm. Libro. Right. So. But Libro is supporting indies, right? Audible is obviously supporting Amazon. So I'm wondering like, again, where they're going to pull all this data from. If it's just Libro fm, that puts a lot of pressure on that system to, you know, I. If you're an author listening to this and I. And you're. You're hearing this, I would be promoting my audiobook through Libro FM like nobody's business. Because if you have that opportunity, especially obviously if you're in the how to Miscellaneous advice section. But anyway, so yeah, I think about what kind of data they're actually going to pull from.

[B]

It's a little. It's a little bit the same issue we see with Bookscan. Like, I'm a big fan of Bookscan because I love having a database where I can go in and nerd out about statistics and figures, but when it comes to the audio numbers, because they don't capture from Audible in terms of credits, right? Like who's using what credit for what, it's just so wildly inaccurate. At least I assume it is. Obviously I would need to see every royalty statement to compare it against everybody, and I can't do that. But, yeah, it's tricky.

[A]

And so let's pivot to the second paragraph there, which is ceasing publication of the monthly mass market list and the weekly paperback nonfiction. So there's a couple things that I'm clocking here, which is less nonfiction is being turned into paperback. A lot of nonfiction is published in hardcover and sometimes never goes into a second print run where it was used to always be that, you know, the hardcover print run would go and then they would do the paperback print run. It's not guaranteed that everything is going to be turned into paperback these days. So they're assuming you're either buying it in hardcover or you're buying it in audio, which is kind of why they're pumping up those audio lists and making that more central. The other thing is I'm sad. Market. Yeah, the mass market.

[B]

Right. I'm sad about mass market.

[A]

Yeah. For a long time. And we've reported on this. I don't know if you can call the show reporting. We have commented on this show about just the lack of support for mass market and how that has declined over the years. Yeah. So that's a bummer.

[B]

It really is. I mean, again, I will not pretend to understand the reasons behind their decision, but mass market is tied to mass readership. And I can't help but think, and I know that it's in decline. There was another New York Times article from February that talked about the decline of mass market readership. And I don't know. No, thank you. Can we please have a world where we have lots of mass market? One of my favorite things to do is to talk to people who have been doing this for a lot longer than I have. Like, they've been in agenting for many decades. And the stories of days where agents would get to sell paperback rights for millions of dollars. That sounds so great. Why wasn't I alive then? I want to get a time machine. This is what I would do. This is what I would do if I had a time machine situation. I would go back and be an agent in the era of the 90s. Yeah. Whatever it was that people were paying millions of dollars for all the rights.

[A]

Well, they used to be so separate. And there's more competition. I mean, if we're going to go down the rabbit hole of going into the past, the glory days, like, I mean, having more competition to be able to sell these books to would be great. Being able to sell paperback rights, I mean. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[B]

Yes, please. Yeah. That's what I want. That's what I want. Let's just do it. Let's just get in our time machine.

[A]

This is not a fiction podcast. This is a non fiction podcast.

[B]

Yet we are ranked on fiction on substack.

[A]

That's true. That's true. Okay, so let's hear a word from our sponsors and then we're going to come back and we're going to talk about all the juicy stuff about our editors actually putting manuscripts into AI

[B]

we

[A]

head into the thick of conference season and book events. I've been thinking a lot about the writing industry uniform. Whether you're bouncing between panels, pitch meetings, networking mixers, you want to look comfortable, sharp and professional without feeling stiff. And lately I've been doing a bit of a spring reset with my closet, moving away from fast fashion, focusing on fewer pieces and better materials. I want a wardrobe that's full of pieces that are well made, versatile and easy to reach for every single day. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They make beautiful everyday pieces using premium materials. We're talking 100% European linen, organic cotton and super soft denim. Many styles starting around $50. Their spring pieces are lightweight and effortless, which is exactly what you need when you want to put together for a meeting with an agent or an editor. The best part? Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middleman. That means you're paying for actual quality, not brand markup. I picked up a few staples that have honestly changed my morning routine. First is the Mongolian cashmere tee. I have it in both camel and grey and I kid you not, a week doesn't go by where I don't wear it at least once. It feels elevated enough for book signing events and it's comfortable enough for an eight hour writing session. I also paired it with their U shaped hoop earrings. They have that classic architectural look that feels tailored and intentional. The quality of the materials genuinely surprises me, especially considering the price point. Refresh your spring wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.comteessnotya for free shipping and 365 day returns. And for my listeners up north, they're available. Available in Canada too. Go to Q U I-N-C-E.com tisnotya for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's twins.com T Snotya it's hard to believe, but it's my 10th wedding anniversary this year and my husband and I are planning on what we want to do to celebrate when we got married to 20 somethings fresh out of grad school. Just starting our careers. We didn't really want to invest in a big honeymoon. It felt a bit irresponsible when we wanted to buy a house and all those grown up things. But Fast forward to 2026 and my Italian husband and I are finally planning a wine tour in Italy. If you have travel coming up, join me in using Rosetta Stone to learn some local languages there's something about spring that feels like a reset, fresh energy and the motivation to try something new. Learning a language is the perfect way to channel that momentum into a skill that's going to open up the world. Rosetta Stone has been the trusted leader in language learning for 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you n naturally absorb your new language without memorizing random vocabulary lists or relying on translations. Instead, you get to connect with words, visuals and meanings in context, the way that language is meant to be learned. Working in the publishing business means my days are often packed with meanings and manuscripts, but I love how simple these lessons are and they fit into my schedule. Whether I have five minutes between emails or an hour on the weekend, I can access my lessons from my desktop or the mobile app. Since we're heading to Italy, I've been using the True Accent feature, which gives real time feedback on my pronunciation so I can sound more natural when visiting the local vineyards. It's like having a personal coach help me communicate with confidence. Rosetta Stone offers 25 languages to choose from, including Spanish, French, German and Japanese. You can find the one that fits your next big adventure. Ready to start learning a new language this spring? Visit rosettastone.com today today to explore Rosetta Stone and choose a language that's right for you. Go to rosettastone.com today now and begin your language learning journey. All right everybody, welcome back. As promised, we're going to get into the Bookseller article. So it came out on April 2. It said some editors uploading confidential manuscripts to ChatGPT to read quickly Agent claims written by Eloise Wood and publishing the bookseller. The bookseller is, you know, for those of you that don't know the kind of official word of UK publishing. And so an article kind of this is like an equivalent of something coming out in Publishers Weekly or Quill Enquire if you're in Canada. So this is, you know, the considered a serious publication for book people. So this is a very serious accusation. Cece, did you get a chance to look at this one? Do you want to give broad strokes on what it said?

[B]

Sure. So you know the the article started With Gordon Weiss, who's an agent at Curtis Brown, voicing concerns that some editors might be allegedly using ChatGPT to assess the quality of manuscripts before reading them. So they would feed the manuscripts into OpenAI to essentially like do a quality check. It also flagged how some parties, including some agents, might be feeding manuscripts into apps and software such as speechify to listen to the submission as opposed to digesting it with their eyes, ahead of reading it with their eyes. Which is a little concerning, actually. I want to clarify what I just said because I have the article in front of me. I said some people, including agents. That's not true. The article said that editors do the speechify thing. But I know of agents who do the speechify thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is where I got that from. So. Because I have heard from a few agents that I know many that I love and respect and who are great that they have fed it, fed the manuscript. They viewed some type of app. I actually don't know that it's speech by. But they use some type of app.

[A]

Like a text to speech app.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. To. To listen to manuscripts. Like, I've never done it. And this is. I wish I could say it was because of principled moral stance. It isn't. I never thought about the implications. I should have. I never did. I don't like the text to speech apps. Like, I don't. It doesn't work for me. I like reading with my eyes when it comes to submissions. It's important to me. But yeah, I. Anyway, so the article kind of takes us through it and I will say it does have a very interesting point about how should agencies have AI language in their contracts? Should agencies have authors disclose whether they've used AI or not? 1 could argue that because so many of these contracts likely have language saying the work is original, that that is implied. But, you know, in an age where everyone's been using AI, that's a little bit tricky as well. There are some titles that you really just can't have a blanket AI clause. Like, you really. This is one of the situations where the agent has to negotiate. The article talks about an example of, for example, scientists who are writing about AI and have actually done tests in AI to write the book. Right. Like, they talk about how AI functions. And so, of course, they could never say that no part of that book

[A]

has been touched by AI used easily.

[B]

Exactly. So that would not be reasonable. And I feel like, you know, this is where nuance comes in and critical thinking and that's what's so important. But it's a really good article. I appreciated reading it a lot. How about you? What did you think?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where I can't tell if just my corner of the Internet or what things get sent to me are people who are just. I don't know how to say it, like in the discourse. Right. They're just like I'm. They're so online that they're just taking in so much of this content. A lot of this stuff, while I do not support, condone or endorse is things that I assumed that were going on, I think on the show before I've said that. I know that there are editors who used closed AI like systems like their internal AI software to write taglines. So we. We've known for quite a while that editors are using in house tools.

[B]

It is different though, right, to use in house versus open?

[A]

Yes, yes, exactly right. So I think that's a key piece. But yeah, I don't know. I. As I said, I can't tell if it's just like what corner of the Internet is kind of up in arms about things. I just want to quote agent Gordon Wise from the article. He said, in the same way we ask our clients to tell us if any AI was used in the course of writing their work. We expect transparency from publishers too. Editors uploading confidential manuscripts into ChatGPT or other open AI platforms in order to help them quote, read and quote books quickly is not responsible behavior given the security risks involved in handing over such property to a third party. But disturbingly, conversations over the course of London Book Fair have indicated that this seems to have become a widely adopted practice, end quote.

[B]

So it's really surprising to me, to be honest. That was. It was because I felt that people would be afraid of their jobs. Like, yeah, like if I'm an editor working like again, I'm thinking of. I'm thinking about it from a selfish perspective, not like a moral perspective. If I'm an editor working at a publisher, I don't want to put my job in jeopardy and open up myself and the publisher to liability. I would not want to feed it to a opening. Again, it is different if it's a closed program. I'm not saying that's always okay. I'm saying that it's just such a different category that this is not the same conversation. But I. I don't know. I think I would be scared of losing my job of liability. Wouldn't you? Like, I think everyone would, but. Oh yeah, I'm paranoid. Yeah.

[A]

No, it's one of those things where it's like the erosion of our sensibilities and our anger towards this software and just technology in general has changed over time because we've just accepted so much of it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Whether it's. We know that, you know that things are tracking us on our computers all the time. I forget the, the word. Right.

[B]

But, oh God, it's true.

[A]

How ads follow us. There's a word for this. But you know how ads follow us around wherever we go?

[B]

We say something and then an ad shows up. Yeah, like this has happened to me multiple times and to everyone I know. Like we talk about things and things show up.

[A]

Yes. This footprint follows us around on the Internet, right. We know this, this is like confirmed information. And I think over time we've just become less angry about it. And I don't know why. We just continue to accept how software and technology in general has just taken over our lives. And so people are just. And because there's such a blend of our work life, quote unquote, balance these days, right. We use, A lot of people use the same software for home as they do for work. Right. Like people used to have like, oh, your work computer was at work and it wasn't a laptop, you didn't take it home. A lot of people write. You're taking your software and hardware back and forth with you because you have to do work at home. You know, people are in a hybrid work environment. So this, this blur between the work and the home and the work and the self is really just non existent. You know, people such as you and me, right, we use our social media for both things. We use all of our computers for, for all this stuff. So I think people have just unfortunately become less angry about this. And, and it's just, it's really unfortunate that we're just accepting how technology has just taken over our lives. Well, if I could read faster, if I can review manuscripts faster, then is that just a net benefit? And I'm gonna have to weigh that moral difference in my mind.

[B]

But anyway, there's, I mean it's, it's, it's really sad and I agree with you. At the same time, it's very unsurprising that people aren't more angry, I think because we are addicted to the technology and addicts, addicts tend to just accept new realities as long as they can keep getting the dopamine hit that comes with the, the thing they're addicted to. And it is an addiction like I I have been trying to do this thing where I leave my phone in another room and I literally feel the withdrawal like it is.

[A]

Oh yeah, I, I do not like that. And it's still true.

[B]

And at the same time, like, I can't dissociate myself from my phone entirely because so much of my work life is on my phone. Like, yeah, try to do anything without a two factor authentication system that's usually tied to your phone. Try to, you know, live without apps. Like, it's just really hard. So there is, yes, a convenience, you know, need for work, but there's also again, the addiction pace, which is, yeah, even sadder.

[A]

Yeah, I know. Yeah, it's something that we're just going to have to continue to wrestle with in different ways. And yeah, it's one of those things where, you know, obviously we talked about the kind of AI book cancellation scandal last week, but you know, if there is an editor using AI to review submissions scandal, like are we really going to hear about it or is it just going to be somebody's fired or they're just reprimanded or depending on the level that they're at within the publishing house, what are the consequences? Right. And I think that's what this agent is mad about. Or not mad. I'm obviously totally speaking for them, but I think why the agent is raising concerns about this. Right. It's like as agents, how do we know what editors are doing with our clients work? We don't know 100%.

[B]

And I, I wonder what their contracts say, you know, like their employment contracts. Like I wonder if there's language preventing them from. I'm sure there's, there's like confidential language, etc. But like I wonder if there are specific references to use of AI and unauthorized platforms. I also wonder what it's going to be like for the younger generation. Like one of the things that does keep publishing going and that is so important is hiring new talent, younger people who are, you know what.

[A]

Young people of energy.

[B]

Yeah. And also like who understand what people want to read. You know, like, you know this like one of the best things about getting like a reader's report from like an intern or an assistant who's younger is. I'm not only getting my millennial perspective, but I'm getting their Gen Z perspective. I'm pretty sure it's gonna be like Gen Alpha, right? Because like Gen Alpha is getting old enough to pretty soon be, be a part of the workforce. So I just feel like it's interesting because what I've observed is that more and more. So here's what I'm trying to say. I remember when the Internet became a thing. I was really young, but I remember. And I sort of remember a world without it, but I can't live without it, right? So pretty soon this is going to happen with AI. There's going to be a whole generation that's like, yeah, I remember life before AI, but I don't. Not for the purposes of knowing how to live without it. And what's going to happen then? I. Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

I think she was. It's just integrated into everything. And I think this was so, you know, I wrote on my sub stack about all this happening. Obviously we see your comments on YouTube and all this. I think one of the issues that kept coming up in all of the comments and captions and things that you guys were responding to was this idea of AI is integrated into everything. Like, you can't. You don't. There's no app that's like, we're not using AI. It's like, here's how to AI ify, you know, literally every app that we use. And so how can we actually say. And so I'm. I'm talking about editors, right? In their work life. Like, how can we actually say that? And no part of any workflow of anything that they touch is being used by these things, right? And a lot of the AI author contracts have the clause, an AI clause in them which set like in the publishers negotiate for them to protect themselves, for their be able to. Their employees to be able to use some sort of internal system. So it's not that you can write in an author contract that nothing will be ever touched by AI because that is just not a reality. And that's not what the contracts look like 100%.

[B]

It's so complicated. Like, life has been getting more and more complicated.

[A]

I know, I know. So there was a really good podcast episode by Money Feels and they had a really good episode about how to reduce your screen time that came out in early April. It was like an hour and a half long episode. And so many things about, like, how can we just make technology a little bit harder, right? Like, how do we just resist a little bit more? So I don't have threads on my phone. I have to go to my computer for threads. I don't have substack on my phone. I have to go to my computer for substack. So anything like that, which is not directly tied to work, but kind of tied to work, I just don't have it on my phone. I don't have any notifications on. Yeah.

[B]

Have you ever read Dopamine Nation?

[A]

No, I haven't.

[B]

It's actually really interesting because the author talks about multiple types of addiction. Especially, like, addiction, because what happens in the world when you're addicted, when, like, the thing. Thing. The thing is so readily available, which is our world. Right. And she actually became curious about it from a personal perspective. Like her experience with addiction because of. Wait for it, Books. She became addicted to romance novels. And I remember being like, this is not a real addiction. My first shameful reaction. And then, no, she actually did. She went through her process, and I'm a thousand percent convinced, and I feel so embarrassed that I had that reaction, but I did, and I want to own up to it. She did become addicted to it. And one of the things she talks about is. Is how one of the ways to combat the plentiful supply of all the things we could ever possibly want in our world and how we become addicted to dopamine. I don't think that's actually medically accurate, but whatever. Is to make things harder is to do what you're saying, like keep the threads.

[A]

Friction.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Make it a little bit inconvenient. Because the fact that this supply, like if you are addicted, for example, to romance novels, the fact that you have a Kindle, you know, and you can buy books anytime, you don't actually have to go to the bookstore, you know, makes it. Makes it harder to not fall prey to the addiction. Even as I say, this is a giant voice inside my mind going, stop telling people to not buy books. I'm not saying that. People, please buy all the books. We don't have to read them. Feed the authors paychecks, but then you don't have to read them if you have a problem. But still, buy all the books.

[A]

Please buy all the books. Buy them as gifts. Buy them as gifts. There are so many ways.

[B]

Buy them as artwork for your bookshelf. Pretty, pretty guys.

[A]

Home decor. It's. It's home decor. It's anything you want it to be. All right, well, that's kind of all we can say on. On that topic for today, but I'm sure there'll be next week there'll be another article making the rounds. And we always have our eye out for that sort of thing. All right, the last thing on our list today was a sub stack posted. I don't even know how this came across my desk, but there is a sub stack from an author Named Emily Zipper with a Z, Z, I, P, P, S. Emily Zips, who did some surveying of 2025 debut authors. And so what they did was they did a survey of 60 people. So we're totally, you know, acknowledging it's not a massive sample size, but there's a lot of interesting information here. So 60 people who had their debut book traditionally published in the year 2025. And so there's a part one to this data and a part two to the data. So we are doing part two of the data and this subst day 28. Yeah. So, Cece, you said you, you had came across this one. What did you think? When I posted, you sent it.

[B]

You sent it to me and I thought it was so well written. Like, Emily Zips, I am not familiar with you, but now I'm going to look you up and become a fan. No, this was very good. Everything was broken down in a very clear way. I like that she started right away with the number one question everyone has, like, okay, so you surveyed 60 debut authors, you know, people who debuted in 2025. And the first question was like, how much money did people make? And so, you know, one of the figures showed the, like a pie chart with the levels of advances. So, for example, and I, you know, I encourage everyone to look at the substack. I'm not going to read up all of them. You should look at this pie chart. But, for example, no advance, meaning an advance of $0 came out to 20% of those 60 people and an advance of a hundred thousand to 250, also known as like a good deal in publishing, came to 15%. Now this is where it gets interesting. There's a second pie chart in which Emily says, okay, but that's not super accurate because some books are two book deal, three book deals, four book deals. So you actually have to look at the advance per book. Right? And then the number changes significantly. No advance is still 20%. But the second number I read, so 100,000 to 250,000 advance goes from 15% to 8%. So it does matter. The per book does matter. And I'm really just highlighting this one detail in the article because there's so much more data to say how thoughtful and how interesting this analysis was. And 100% 60 people is not a large sample size if you consider the millions of books that were published, published in 2025. But hey, it's someone crunching data in a really interesting, smart way. So I personally loved it. I'm going to subscribe to this and start reading the substack. I'm excited.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, no, I thought it was an excellent, excellent breakdown. A couple things I wanted to highlight which you guys might have questions about, which is where are these people from? So 60% of these respondents were from the United States and 17% was from the UK. That matters because American advances are much larger than UK advances just based on population, population size and market size. So that is something to pay attention to. And then you're probably wondering what is the size of these publishers? 42% of these debuts were with big fives. A large subset were with. I think they call them just like smaller presses, which is why you're seeing that $0 number kind of, you know, pull down that to that 20% of people were $0. Small presses. People don't offer advances sometimes just royalties. So this, you know, sample size of 60 people is obviously varied. I think she said in this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there were no kind of like mid range, like mid sized publishers. It was either small independents or big fives, just based on the people that did the survey. So anyway, lots of, lots of interesting and I'm sure people are wondering, you know, the big advances, how many people got big advances? It was essentially one person of the 60, if you do the breakdown of the math. So it was of a multi book deal who was over 500k, 2% of the 60, which is essentially 100 person. So just fun facts for everybody there. Yeah.

[B]

The fact that the only houses offering the zero dollar advance were big five or small indies says a lot to me, I think. Like.

[A]

Yeah, and like who is getting these?

[B]

I mean, yes and no. Because if you think about the digital first imprints of some big fives, right. They, they sometimes offer, they sometimes do. Like for example, if you do book couture, is that Hachette?

[A]

Because that's a big five technically, yes.

[B]

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, is that how it counts? So then yes, it would be like

[A]

that's, it would be a Hachette contract, I assume. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, I assume. And so, yeah, so that would be a zero dollar advance situation.

[A]

So interesting.

[B]

And it would be not a small indie press. Although again, digital.

[A]

It just, again it is traditional, it is technically big five, but it's not, it's a digital first. Yeah, there's a lot of, of, you know, loopholes and things that we won't know. But I think you guys will really, really like that. So definitely go check it out if you want to know more about data. She she breaks down like race of the characters. Are there queer characters? All of the diversity representation is also in this. So if you're curious about that breakdown, head over to Emily's substack.

[B]

Yes, that was great.

[A]

That was great. That's everything we have for today, guys, so we look forward to hearing what you think about it. You obviously know where to find us. We love hearing from you on YouTube, so you know where to drop things in the comments below. Thanks for hanging out with us for another week.

[B]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query Cece, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.