Shooting the Shit About Editors Quiet Quitting and the Unpaid Labour of Agents

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Shooting the Shit About Editors Quiet Quitting and the Unpaid Labour of Agents
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra
Date: February 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the often-unspoken challenges and frustrations of working in the publishing industry, especially from the perspective of literary agents and authors. Topics include the phenomena of editors “quiet quitting” on projects, the financial and emotional costs of agenting, the realities of unpaid labor, transparent author income, and the value of professional development versus writing talent. The co-hosts intersperse their candid industry commentary with laughter, personal experiences, and shoutouts to trending bookish social media posts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. TV, Pop Culture, and Book Adaptations

• Hosts open with light chit-chat about TV shows based on books (e.g., Sansa's show, book-to-screen adaptations) and the FOMO around cultural phenomena.
• Bianca: “I want to dissect the storytelling… I want to do it for my nerdy purposes.” (02:31)
• They discuss balancing family, work, and “couch time” for creative replenishment.

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2. Publishing Industry Pet Peeves & Quiet Quitting

The Problem of Editor “Quiet Quitting” on Option Projects

• Carly raises major frustration over editors not officially passing on option projects but also not communicating clearly—leaving agents and authors in limbo.

  “I’m calling it quiet quitting on this option project because they haven’t officially passed on it, but they’re also not saying no, which is just so annoying and so frustrating.” (07:23–07:59)

• CeCe recounts a similar anecdote where a lack of communication led to tension after a book was sold elsewhere, with the original editor being surprised.

  “And like, to be clear, like, to anyone listening, this is not common behavior. Like, most lovely editors will respond and will be, you know, honest about whether they want something or not. It is the author's choice… Communication in this industry is not what it should be.” (08:59)

• Key insight: Contractual timelines are often ignored, and poor communication from publishers creates stress and financial risk for agents and authors alike.

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3. Unpaid Labour and Economic Realities for Agents

The Nonfiction Creator Who Opted Out

• CeCe shares a story of approaching a promising nonfiction creator who analyzed the economics of book writing and ultimately declined due to time and opportunity cost.

  “They were like, I talk to my friends about how much money they make off their books… And I can make more money off these other products… What I think I don't have is the time it would take to write such a thoughtful book.” (12:08–12:40)

• Carly adds: The “brand recognition” and long-term business value of publishing a book isn’t always outweighed by immediate monetary gaps.

• Insight: Writing a book demands passion and a vision that isn’t always compatible with other business models—authors must weigh the real costs and benefits.

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4. Industry Transparency: Viral Money Posts & Book Sales Reality Checks

Laura McKowen’s Post on Book Advances and Royalties

• The hosts discuss Laura McKowen’s transparent breakdown of her income, expenses, and units sold.

  “The average book in America sells 200 copies per year and a thousand copies over its lifetime… She talks about the money going out—agent, freelance editor, publicist… she was out of pocket at this point to invest in all of these things.” (16:58–20:22)

• Notable frustration: BookScan’s incomplete data fails to reflect true sales performance.

  “It did not capture even close to 85% of her sales… The idea that people attach such importance to Bookscan…” (20:22)

• CeCe's rant:

  “People who complain when authors promote their book... I wish that you live in a world with no chocolate. Okay, that is my wish for you.” (22:41)

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5. Navigating Writer Resources & Professionalization in Publishing

Where Should Emerging Writers Look for Reliable Information?

• Carly reflects on the overwhelming amount of (and past scarcity of) information available now, contrasting then-vs-now learning curves.

• CeCe’s advice:

  “Learning about the business of publishing is really important… but first, work on your talent… So that would be my first comment. Like, first I would work on writing, writing, writing, storytelling, storytelling, storytelling.” (28:17–28:39)

• Practical Tips:

  • Find structure—courses, in-person/virtual networking, and credible sources.
  • Be skeptical and fact-check even industry “experts.”
  • Use social media to build community, not just a following.
  • Conferences and workshops are invaluable but require a strategic investment.

• Career/Hobby Divide:

  “If you want something to be a career, you have to invest some form of capital in it. Right? Whether it's your human capital, your labor, your financial capital, there has to be an investment made.” (33:18–34:57)

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6. The Unpaid, High-Risk Labor of Literary Agents

Viral Post by Editor Yadon Israel on Agent Labor

• Summary: Yadon Israel’s Instagram highlights that agents only earn if a sale is made—no salary or guarantee.

  “When you work with an agent, you're entering into a shared risk agreement. They... invest labor. You provide intellectual property and you both hope it converts.” (38:00–41:40)

• CeCe expands:

  “There's labor on both sides... Never make changes your agent asks for unless you really love the vision.” (41:40)

• Carly observes:

  “Different agents experience this financial risk differently, which directly affects how much energy they can afford to put into you… Over the years by just having more experience… I do it faster, arguably probably better.” (41:40–42:51)

• Critical insight: The agent-client relationship and degree of attention are shaped by agent experience, financial circumstances, and life stage—there is no one-size-fits-all.

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7. Miscellaneous Updates & Substack/Instagram Highlights

• Shoutouts to viral, comedic bookish posts (e.g., “excuse a girl for catching a vibe”).
• Announcements about upcoming literary events and substack content, including essays on beta readers, self-publishing to Big Five deals, and writing collaborations with spouses.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On psychological acuity in writing:

  “Plot is what happens. Interiority is how your protagonist processes what happens. And psychological acuity is why it matters.” — CeCe (00:00–00:48)

• On editor quiet quitting:

  “I’m calling it quiet quitting on this option project… so annoying and so frustrating.” — Carly (07:23)

• On publishing communication:

  “Communication in this industry is not what it should be.” — CeCe (08:59)

• On agent unpaid labor:

  “When you work with an agent, you're entering into a shared risk agreement… you both hope it converts.” — Yadon Israel, paraphrased by hosts (38:00–40:00)

• On writers treating writing as a career:

  “If you want something to be a career, you have to invest some form of capital in it…” — Carly (33:18)

• On online criticism:

  “I wish that you live in a world with no chocolate. Okay, that is my wish for you.” — CeCe (22:41)

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Memorable Moments

• CeCe’s passionate rant about industry negativity:
  “Apologize. And stop doing that because it’s not okay. Authors should promote their work online… I wish you a world with no chocolate.” (22:08–23:08)

• Carly on talent before business acumen for writers:
  “I actually think it's putting the cart before the horse to learn about the business first… every agent I talk to says the same thing, which is the overwhelming number of books in the slush pile are not where they need to be in terms of the skill.” (28:17–28:39)

• Pragmatic breakdown of an author’s costs versus advance:
  “She said I don’t have to do those things, but I wanted to because I was anxious as hell and it was my first book… She was out of pocket at this point… to invest in all of these things.” (16:58–20:22)

• Mutual appreciation for book community humor and transparency.

• Quick-fire industry advice, candid professional confessions, and encouragement for intentional career-building.

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00 — Opening; Interiority & psychological acuity in writing
• 01:28 — Host banter: TV, reading, storytelling obsessions
• 05:17 — Publishing pet peeves and quiet quitting editors
• 10:09 — Approaching nonfiction creators & industry economics
• 16:14 — Viral posts: humor & industry transparency
• 19:00 — Breakdown of Laura McKowen’s book earnings post
• 28:10 — Advice for emerging writers: business knowledge vs. craft
• 38:00 — Agent labor: risks, commission, and viral editor post
• 45:44 — Wrap-up, future topics teased

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Tone & Style

• The episode is candid, sometimes irreverent, always supportive of emerging writers.
• Hosts blend practical advice with real-talk about publishing’s ongoing frustrations and realities.
• Encouragement is balanced with a call for self-awareness, professional investment, and clear-eyed expectations about the industry.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking a forthright look at the business behind writing and publishing. With humor and unvarnished honesty, Bianca, Carly, and CeCe pull back the curtain on the unseen labor of agents, the communication woes with editors, the sobering economics of authorship, and the importance of both artistic skill and intentional professional development. The episode also celebrates fellow industry voices and continues its tradition of amplifying transparency and good humor within the book community.

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Transcript

[A]

What's up, everyone? This is Cece. Do you know something I'm always looking for when I review the slush pile? Strong interiority. Well written interiority shows what your protagonist is thinking about in a way that is realistic and interesting. It propels the story forward instead of holding it back. But it doesn't stop there. A strong writer will leverage interiority into a superpower, into something I call psychological acuity. Think about it this way. Plot is what happens. Interiority is how your protagonist processes what happens. And psychological acuity is why it matters. It gives a book depth and meaning and staying power. All breakout books have psychological acuity. You have been asking me to teach a course about psychological acuity for years.

[B]

Years.

[A]

Well, it's finally here. Why did it take me so long? Because my courses take years to build. They're dense, they're thorough, and they're filled with examples and specific techniques. So this five day course begins on March 2nd. We'll have an optional interactive component. Students are invited to submit excerpts from their work for a chance to have them critiqued live during a class. If you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for writing interiority and psychological acuity. Don't worry if you can't attend live. The sessions will be recorded. And for more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.

[C]

Hi, everybody.

[D]

Welcome back.

[C]

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.

[D]

If you've ever wanted to have a.

[C]

Coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. I did say that you write off.

[B]

Okay, I will. I still have it on my list, but okay, so it's not my fault. It's Sansa's fault. I watched the Sansa show. I don't know Sansa's name. I should. Is it called Steel Stolen? I don't know the show's name, but I watched the whole thing. And that was obviously very time consuming, right? Because I watched every single episode. It's very good. And so that was all my TV time. But I will. But again, I'm not feeling the pull, the pull of the story. And I had actually quite a few listeners. Dm me to be like, cece, you're not alone. I also didn't fall in love with it. Like, it's good. Everyone's saying, yeah, it's good. It's well made, but I wasn't obsessed. I think it's actually really interesting when something like become such a cultural phenomenon. There's always people who are like, oh, my God, what's wrong with me that I don't love it?

[C]

I want to love it totally.

[B]

I want to be a part of this. So I'm still going to get into it or try to get into it anyway, because I do think that because of how popular it is and the fact that it's based on a book, I kind of want to dissect the storytelling. Like, I want to do it for my nerdy purposes, but. Yeah, but my current obsession has been Sansa's show. Yeah, she'll always be Sansa for me.

[C]

I also want to shout out one of our fellow book podcasters and Bad on Paper, the ladies over there are doing a heated rivalry. So if you are looking for podcasters who are going to be talking about the books in the show, I know the Bad on Paper ladies did an episode or maybe they're continue to do more episodes, but I know they definitely have one episode, so people can head over.

[B]

See, now I want to do it even more. Now I want to watch it even more because I want to then listen to the. To the awesome Bad on Paper I'm on.

[C]

I'm on my second rewatch of the show, but I also. I've been watching the Pit, which comes out weekly, and I'm very focused on that and obviously all the reading that I have to do. You pigs are so fun. I'm like, can I do a TV show? Should I read? What should I do? Yeah. And I also started.

[B]

Do you watch a show every day or no? Like, no.

[C]

My God.

[B]

TV every day or.

[C]

No, I don't do an hour TV every day. I probably, honestly, like a week or two weeks could go by sometimes with me watching tv.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

Yeah, it's just I do.

[B]

I do an hour every. Every year. Yeah, it's our couch time. It's our. We call it couch time. We just literally watch an hour every evening. And yeah, I love it. I love it because it's like, still storytelling, so it's still feeding my obsessive brain. But it's much more passive. Right. Because, you know, your imagination is not being leveraged in the same way.

[C]

You do it together. Right. Whereas, like, you can't read a book, like, side by side together. So I love that.

[B]

Yeah. Plus it's an excuse to eat more popcorn because, you know, I love eating popcorn. So.

[C]

Yeah. Well, I should say I actually do watch a movie a week, but it's because as a family, we sit down and watch a movie and have popcorn on Fridays. And so we watch Disney's Zombies, which was like, a kid's musical, like a high School musical. Zombies, Disney, but it's like High School Musical. People who've seen it know what I'm talking about. It's basically High School Musical. So I do watch a movie. We do watch a movie as a family. So I don't get a lot of, let's say adults, quality TV time or sitting down with my husband on the couch time. But, yeah, I think it's just that stage of my life. So we had a couple. We had a big list of things we want to talk about today. I want to talk about. I have a gripe. I want to talk about quiet quitting. Cece has some things she wants to get off of her chest. I. We also have a bunch of Instagram kind of posts that popped up on our feeds that we really enjoyed. We also. So I don't. We have. We have so much to talk about. Oh, I also want to talk about publishing our publishing pet peeves. I have a bunch of, like, little pet peeves that have been piling up. So I. I need to get those off my chest. And then we have an author kind of writer follower DM that we want to. To get to. So we. We have lots of good stuff today. Cece, where do you want to start?

[B]

I want to start about hearing about this quiet quitting situation, because I'm curious now what happened?

[C]

Oh, my gosh, I'm so annoyed by this. So publishers in their contracts have option clauses which involve a number of things, like the material that needs to be submitted, the timeline that it needs to be submitted by, and often, at least in my contracts, the amount of time that the editor or publisher has to take to kind of get back to you to make a decision so that clients can go on their way, you know, whether it's a fit this way or that way. So there's. It's a pretty meaty clause that goes through all the parameters and the guidelines of what a good, you know, what. What an appropriate amount of time is. So I sent a client's option project in July to a publisher, and the author's book did really well. And I should preface all of this. The author's book did well, so it sold well. It was a great book. It earned out its advance. The author has, you know, continued to earn royalties years after the book came out. So all in All I should preface this with successful project. So I see. I send the option project to a publisher and takes forever to hear back from them. Then they come back with like a few questions and then I get the answers for them. And then it takes a month for them to get back to me. It's like, oh, we need to do a couple more questions. Another month to get back to me. Let's set a call with the authors to ask some questions. More questions. So it's a. It's like a completely long, drawn out process. And then by December, I still hadn't heard from them about whether they're going to buy the book. And so frustrating. Like, I followed up with a, you know, we need to make a decision. The authors need to be able to, you know, know whether they can go on their way. And contractually they are free to go on their way because it's been so long. But out of, you know, the respect and due diligence of, you know, that partnership. Yeah, I continue to check in with them. So very frustrating. Kind of like, I'm calling it quiet quitting on this option project because they haven't officially passed on it, but they're also not saying no, which is just so annoying and so frustrating.

[B]

That is really annoying. I wonder. Like, I do remember an agent once told me. This was so many years ago when I first started agenting. I remember an agent told me that, you know, he sent over the option work to the publisher. Publisher. It's not that they were dragging their feet, but they were like, very respectfully, we are swamped. Can we please have a little bit more time? And the agent was like, that's fine. And then the editor started ghosting this agent.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Seemed wild to me, right? Like, you have a book together, et cetera. I don't actually know what the track record was for the first book, so I can't offer that context. But anyway, the part that shocked me was editor ghosted. And then the agent, after following up multiple times, mind you being like, hey, like, after a while, the agent was like, well, my client's free to go because we fulfilled our contractual obligation. We are very sad that this person's not answering us. I remember they tried to like loop in the senior editor to be like, yeah, right. Like nothing. So, okay, cool. Agent goes out with the submission. Submission sells. Publishers marketplace. Deal is announced right away. Because this is not an agency that has to wait for the contract for the announcement.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And then editor follows up to be like, I'm very surprised to hear that you Know, this. This. This author's work went to. And he was like, do you. Like, what?

[C]

Like, did you have emails?

[B]

The call I emailed you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, and again, according to the story, the editor apparently was. I thought that out of respect for our relationship, you wouldn't have shopped it around without telling me about. Sorry. Not that you wouldn't have shopped around. You wouldn't have accepted the offer without first coming back to me and being like, we have an offer which is.

[C]

Not in the contract. Right.

[B]

Like, and I never heard of an editor doing that. And since I have never heard. And like, to be clear, like, to anyone listening, this is not common behavior. Like, most lovely editors will respond and will be, you know, honest about whether they want something or not. It is the author's choice whether they obviously want to take any offer that is made. But it's just, like, it's really frustrating because communication in this industry is not what it should be. I think it's actually one of my. We're not there yet, but it's one of my big things about publishing.

[C]

So that's my gripe. And it sounds like it has happened before, and I'm sure it will happen.

[D]

Again to somebody else.

[C]

And, yeah, the joys of publishing.

[B]

I look forward to people reaching out to you being like, oh, this deal was announced.

[C]

What? Excuse me. What's going on? Okay. And, cece, you had a note here about a nonfiction creator. What did you want to say about this one?

[B]

Again, obviously not going to share details. We're very mindful of confidentiality here. But what I love about our show is that we still get to talk about specifics without. Without getting into details. So I was having conversations with a really talented nonfiction expert. They do not have a book. And I approached them. I want to make that clear. And I said, hey, would you consider writing a book if you ever do? Would love to chat.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And whenever I have these chats, I always come in, you know, if I have a vision, and often I do, I'll come in with a vision. But I'll make sure to say that I'm really flexible in my vision. And, you know, they're the exper. But as a consumer of their content, which I am, I'm like, I would love to read a book by you. And this book could, you know, take on many forms. But this is what I was thinking, like, what do you think? This is a very smart person who has many, many years of research, and so their book would be very meaty, filled with case studies, filled with original research, which is what I love. One of my many gripes about proposals are like, hot air proposals. Like, I can't stand it. And this person like, oh, my gosh, so much content. And they were lovely. Like, they were so lovely. And they were like, yeah, I have all these ideas. And I really liked that they, like, kind of. We had this really great back and forth. We were like brainstorming angles. And I could tell that, like, I knew they were smart, but I'm like, whoa, you're even smarter than I thought. And it was just awesome. So much chemistry. And, you know, I always say, please talk to every agent out there that you might be interested in working with. There is no timeline to get back to me. I'm not going to pressure you. I never want that. Like, I always want people to sign with me because you want to sign with me, but, you know, let me know. And I. And they got back to me and I'm. I. I could tell by the start of the email that it was going to be bad news, but I thought they had picked a different agent, which happens, you know, it happens to everyone. Side note, when I first started working with Carly and Carly mentioned, like, losing a beauty contest, I was like, does it still happen to you? Because in my mind, it could never happen to the Carly Waters. And Carly was like, everyone's Cece. Anyway, sorry for that side note. Back to the story. So the, the email basically said, I've decided not to write a book. And I would love to hop on a call and tell you, but I'm mindful of your time and I don't want to waste your time, but I don't think I want to write a book. And I'm like, really curious to know why. So I was like, yeah, I'd love a call. So we had a very quick call and, you know, this person was like, look, I ran the economics of it. I talked to all my friends who have books.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I offer these products currently. And I'm obviously not going to say what the products are because I. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, I'm assuming courses and whatnot.

[B]

It's the stuff everyone's assuming. Right. Like, but these are the products they offer about their content. This, these products give them X amount of money.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which is totally fair. They are, they are in a for profit business. And if I were to write a book, I would have to dedicate X amount of time and also money because they would need a ghostwriter. Not because they're not a fabulous writer, because they're too Busy. And, you know, when you work with a ghostwriter, it's. It's really important to remember that there is no such thing as plugging a flash drive into another person's brain. And so you still invest a lot of time. It is not time typing, but it is time.

[C]

And you have to choose the right ghostwriter. You need to do interviews to find the right fit for the right collaborator, 100%.

[B]

And it takes time and et cetera. And of course, it's a money investment. And they were like, I wouldn't mind the money. Like, I wouldn't mind, like, spending money to make money. That part's fine. What I think I don't have is the time it would take to write such a thoughtful book because they want to be really thoughtful. And then. And then they were really honest. They were like, like, I talk to my friends, like, about how much money they make off their books. And some of these are good book. These books do well, and I can make more money off these other products, you know, And I was like, look, I'm not trying to convince you because again, I never want to convince anyone to write a book because it's so much work that you have to want it. That's the number one condition. You have to desire it. It has to be a big ambition of yours. But I did mention, you know, some things I say to people, which is, I understand that there are other products that could give you more immediate money. Now, just remember, successful books have longevity. Successful books can be converted into other things. There's sub rights, obviously. There's also things like speaking engagements after you have a book, you know, you can get so much out of that. There is something about the credibility of a book. Like, I have this. I have a spiel, right?

[C]

Like, I have my little spiel, too. I always talk about how it's a. It will get you into stores that you never thought possible. Do you want your name in a Target or Barnes and Noble, a Walmart, like that. Brand recognition that you can then translate and parlay into other industries. You just can't get a product, another product into a Target, a Walmart. Anyway, I have my whole spiel anyway, too.

[B]

Yes, and it's so true, I think. And again, I love that this person did their research again. It speaks to their intelligence, speaks to their critical thinking. I am in awe of that and I applaud that. I'm obviously disappointed selfishly, but, like, I'm happy that they're doing what's right for their goals because, hey, everyone has certain Goals. Good on you. So much respect. I am sad, though. Just like, as an agent, I'm sad. But also as a reader, I'm sad. I was gonna really love this book.

[C]

I.

[B]

In this respect, I'm an optimist. I will keep, keep, keep hope in my heart, the embers of hope glowing, that perhaps they will change their mind someday. Because it is an evergreen book. It's not like a this book needs to come out now situation.

[C]

Yeah. And you can always, like, somebody can take a course and turn it into a book later. Maybe if sales start to kind of take a little downturn, then you just turn that into a book. So lots, Lots of options there. But, yeah, that is a bummer. But, yeah, not unheard of. Speaking of, busy people are busy. Yeah.

[B]

Let's talk about fun things. When is your event in New York? Because I'm excited for that.

[C]

I know it is. So the day this comes out, I will be in New York. EJ's one bad mother event. Yes, it is tonight. If you're watching this live, we've nearly sold out. I think the think there's space for the venue, which is the second floor at the strand is like 150, and we're almost sold out, which is amazing. So I will be there. My assistant will be there. Obviously, the author's friends, Rebecca Traister, who's doing the. In conversation. So if you're in New York and there's any tickets left, make sure you head to the Strand tonight. And, yeah, I'm just excited for her. We got so much great buzz for the book. The excerpt in the cut has come out. We still have two more excerpts to come out, and we have our great review in the New Yorker. And, yeah, all the good things. Buzzing for that one.

[B]

So, yeah, that's so exciting. I mean, again, I think. I think that by the time this. This airs, it'll be sold out, but hopefully there's still a couple tickets that people can grab. Go grab your tickets.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

All right, so we get into some posts that intrigued us this week. Where do you want to start?

[B]

Let's start with the funny one. I want to start with the funny one. Yeah.

[C]

Okay. Okay. This one is for this account called Stacy McEwen Books. S t A C E Y M C E W A N Books. And it starts off being like, I want to talk about toxic behavior. So it's like, oh, my gosh, editor behavior. Toxic editor behavior.

[B]

Editor behavior.

[C]

Yeah. So we. So right away you're like, oh, my gosh, toxic behavior. Need to Stop. And then it's just like, hilarious things, like, what if I want to change my character's name halfway through? So, yes, there are three Chapter 17s, and it's just a really, really funny viral post.

[B]

Creative license. My favorite was this metaphor doesn't quite make sense. We'll excuse a girl for catching a vibe. And it's just. Okay. I want to think, given everything that's happening in our world, and I don't have to specify what's happening in the world, people know. Thank you to funny people. You guys make the world so much better. Thank you for funny people. You are making me laugh. You're giving me, like, all the good hormones in the middle of the dumpster fire, pirate ship world we live in. I love you. Thank you.

[C]

Yeah, that was great. So check that one out. It's gone viral a bit, so it might have popped up on your feed. But excuse a girl for catching a vibe should definitely be a catchphrase. Love that. And maybe it is a catchphrase, and I'm just too old to know whether it's a catchphrase. So I really enjoyed that. The next thing we had on the list was there's a couple different Instagram posts that. That caught our eye. The first one I wanted to highlight, and it refers back to a substack. To be honest, I haven't clicked through to the substack yet. I don't know if you did, Cece, but we can refer back to it. But Laura McCowan is the Instagram handle aura_mccowan mck o w e N. And it's called how much I made on my First Book. And, you know, I. You know, I love a transparent post. I think, you know, as agents, we can't be like, here's what happens with our clients, Lauren. And Laura isn't a client. I obviously want to be clear, but it's so nice when we could just shout out people who are doing the Lord's work, as they say, to. To share things. And so this is a substack post that you can go to Laura mccowan.substack.com how much I made on my first book. So she starts with some stats. The average book In America sells 200 copies per year and a thousand copies over its lifetime. She has some quotes about, you know, a traditionally published book, you know, anywhere from three to 5,000 copies over its entire lifetime. It's common. 10,000 copies is considered solid slash successful. 20,000 copies, very strong. 100,000 copies is rare. Usually Requires, you know, platforms and book clubs and word of mouth. And so. And then she talks about the money. So she said, I received $20,000 advance for her book, which is called We Are the the Surprising Magic of a Sober Life. Shout out to her book. And then she talks about the money going out, right? So the agent got 15% off the top of every check. She also hired a freelance editor at 7,500 and a freelance publicist at 15,000. So she says I don't have to do those things, but I wanted to because I was anxious as hell and it was my first book. And she also paid 80% of a six city book tour. And then in September 2022, it crossed over the hundred thousand copies sold and is now over 150,000 units of print, ebook and audio, which is amazing. So if you want to read more, she just throws to her substack, which is Laura McCowan substack.com so if you want to do a deep dive into that. But yeah, I just, I just love that because it highlights a number of things, right? Potentially, you know, what the average number of copies are sold, the average, you know, or an example of an advance also talks about for very commonly, which we've also just talked about when Suici was talking about the content creator. A lot of people have to hire somebody, whether it's a freelance editor or publicist and the different ways that authors spend their money. And as you can see, this adds up to more than the advance. So she was out of pocket at this point to invest in all of these things. And we know that with books there's usually a third of the advance on signing, a third on delivery and acceptance of the manuscript, and then a third on publication of the book. And she would have had to pay out a bunch of these things before that amount of money comes in. So then you have to have this amount of money to set aside for your book in order to cover all of this. And none of this, of course is requirements. But she's also trying to show, hey, this helped me sell a lot of copies. And this is a common formula that authors use, which is some of them, especially if it's like a business book or a nonfiction book, they're in the hole a little bit to do all the promo and then they're kind of able to accelerate those copies. But obviously want to be clear that we can never assume those things. But I, I enjoyed that post.

[B]

Yeah, I really enjoyed it too. Love it. When like to be clear, this is not expected of anyone Please, no one feel pressured. But I do love a good money post because it is, it is something that, as agents, to Carly's point, we can't share ourselves. A few things stood out to me. First is she mentions that her book sold like 150,000 copies, which is like, so great. And yet if you look up her numbers on Bookscan, it's a tiny fraction of this, which is so, like, it just makes me like, ugh, Bookscan. You know, like the fact that people attach such importance to Bookscan, like, don't get me wrong, I love the platform itself because it gives me some sense of, you know, sales. It's really actually kind of addicting to look up books there. But the idea that it's so different looking at her bookscan number versus her actual sales numbers. And we know that Bookscan doesn't capture everything, but come on, it did not capture even close to 85% of her sales. So that was really interesting to me. And then the other thing that I will, that I will say, and it is, it is an angle about this post. So she was inspired to do this post, which again, Carly and I are thankful for, because when her paperback came out, she started promoting this book again because that's what authors are supposed to do. And she got a little bit of pushback from quite a few people saying things like, I don't understand why you're promoting your paperback. You're already a best selling author. Why are you doing this? Or, you know, someone else saying like, so you want me to buy your book again? Because I already bought the, you know, the hardcover. And, and just people like complaining that authors are promoting their work. Now, I want to say something, and to be clear, I speak only for myself. I do not speak for Carly. I don't believe in putting out anything negative in the world. Not because I'm a good person, but because I believe that things come back and I believe that you put out good even when you're feeling angry. So when I'm feeling really, really angry, and sometimes I'm really, really angry, I remind myself, like, feel the anger. Ride the wave. But when it comes to thoughts, be intentional and put out love. Because then love will come back and love will reach the person who is making you angry. They need love. Everybody needs love. I am making an exception. People who complain with authors, people who go to authors and send them DMS and make comments and say things like, where are you promoting your book? I am making an exception for you. I wish that you live in a world with no Chocolate. Okay, that is my wish for you. That is a very mean spirited wish. I stand by it. I hope there is no chocolate left in your world because that is such a mean thing to say. Apologize, Apologize. And stop doing that because it's not okay. Authors should promote their work online. They absolutely get to. The fact that it's rubbing you the wrong way says so much about whatever message you've internalized from like weird things. I don't know. Women can't promote their own work or creative work isn't about profit. I don't know what you've internalized, but I would go to therapy and I would think about it long and hard. And yeah, I do wish a world with no chocolate for you. I just do.

[C]

On that note, we are now going to promote our sponsors so we will take a quick break and we will be back.

[D]

As you know, we have booked our summer adventure. We're off to Germany and Austria for the kids summer break. I've been to Frankfurt for the book fair but nowhere else in Germany. I've been to Zurich but nowhere else in that region. So I am pumped. I can't wait to carry the kids.

[C]

Up the mountains while we hike.

[D]

Kidding.

[C]

But what they often excel at is language.

[D]

My kids are getting really strong French skills but I can't wait for us to learn some German before we go so we feel less like tourists and.

[C]

More like locals connected to the country.

[D]

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[C]

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[C]

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[C]

One of the things that's been on my mind actually all week since we talked about it last week, which is we kind of started a conversation about how much information there is on the Internet. And there is so much information on the Internet. And so I don't know, I was thinking about my answer. I was like, was I happy with my answer? Because I do think about, you know, after record the show, I'm like, you know, was everybody going to get something from our conversation? Because when I started in publishing, you know, they're just. The Internet wasn't a place of resource like that. You know, maybe there were some organizations, for example, you know, so this is back in. I started publishing in 2009, so there were resources like SCBWI, which is the Children's Society of Publishers. And Illustrators. So if there was an organization, there would often be resources, but they were also usually buying to paywall. You know, you could buy the copy of, you know, writers and artists, you know, the Writer's Digest guides. So, like, there were select resources. But that's one of the ways, as an agent, which I've talked about before, that I was able to kind of create my own agent brand and, you know, communicate to, to, to writers, which is, you know, showing them all of the different ways that the way the business works and kind of break it down for them. And, and I started blogging and on social media and so forth, which is, you know, how I started to build that following. And anyway, I just think about how, how far we've come in that amount of time, which now there's so much information out there, tons of grifters, tons of completely legitimate resources as well, and how overwhelming that would be now to think. It's not about locating the right place to find the conversation. It's also about, like, parsing through what conversations are worth having. And I also imagine it being such a time suck for you guys of like, oh, you must go down these Reddit rabbit holes of like, you know, where do we go to get this information? So I was thinking, you know, if, if you CC we're trying to learn the business in 2026, what would you do to. Or it could also be like, when you're learning anything, you know, in the year 2026, like, where would you go to do a deep dive on a, on a topic?

[B]

Am I learning the business as a writer or as an agent? Because the answers are totally different.

[C]

I would say writer because I'm thinking about our listeners.

[B]

Okay, then I want to first caveat something. And again, it's. It's a hot take, perhaps. Actually, I don't think it's a hot take at all, but maybe it is. I actually think that, again, it's my perspective as an agent. Learning about the business of publishing is really important for all writers. If you want to make it in an industry, you need to know about the business. Duh, 100%. But first, work on your talent. I actually think it's putting the cart before the horse to learn about the business first. Like, I see the slush pile. We all see the slush pile. We all have different slush pile, obviously. But like, every agent I talk to says the same thing, which is the overwhelming number of books in the slush pile are not where they need to be in terms of the skill. Right. Talent for Writing online level. I genuinely think that the first thing I would do as a writer is make sure my talent is where it needs to be. That takes years. That is something that's really important once I'm confident in that. And yes, it can be done in parallel to a degree, but I see people really stressing themselves out. They go, I don't know enough about how to promote my work on social media. Your work is never going to be promoted on social media because you're never going to get it traditionally published because your talent is nowhere where it needs to be. I'm sorry, it's mean, but it's true. And people first go do that. Your talent can get there, you can do it, but first you got to work on that. So that would be my first comment. Like, first I would work on writing, Writing, writing, writing, storytelling, storytelling, storytelling. Once I was like, yes, I'm good. I actually think that I learn best my brain in a structured environment. I don't go down Reddit, Reddit rabbit holes because I, I'm, I'm so protective of like my attention span. I would of course listen to that. You know, the shit no one tells you about writing. I feel like that's, that's biased on my part. But we, I do think we actually offer good content. But I would look for structure. One initial structured course or program. Like, I'll give you an example. My colleague Charisse Fisher, she teaches Introduction to Publishing, I believe it's called, at City College. And again, I know my brain. I know how I like to learn. I like to learn with structure first. And then I can go down rabbit holes, but not in a bad way way. Like, right then I can like kind of like fill in the gaps. But I would like to begin with a course that would teach me things like, what are the roles in publishing? Difference between acquiring editor, editor, difference between literary agent and scouts. What about publicists? What do they do? Like, I remember being in publishing school and literally learning things like the difference between publicity and marketing. Yeah, it's obvious that there would be a difference, but I wouldn't know how to say it. Before I, before I was in school, I remember learning this one was mind blowing to me. Ya. Because I remember as a reader, I didn't read ya And I remember thinking young adult. So it must be like people in their early twenties. That is what a young adult is. No, YA means teenagers. You know, like I would learn jargon lingo. Like I would pick up on all these things and learn what are the resources that the professionals Use. So, for example, people rely on bookscan. Great deep dive on bookscan. People rely on Publishers Marketplace. Great deep dive on Publishers Marketplace. Like, what are the traits people love? Publishers Weekly. Like, what are the resources that the actual people doing the job use? And I would make sure that whenever, whenever I take a course or listen to a podcast, and again, this is what my brain likes. I would be learning from people who are doing the job, which ties back to what we talked about last week. Like, I learn best from people who are actually in the trenches doing the work. And I would try to take an in person course, even though I'm a homebody and I never want to leave the house.

[C]

House.

[B]

But I would try to leave the house and like, kind of force myself out of my comfort zone. Because publishing is a business of relationships. It's one of the reasons why, like, I'm not worried about AI replacing us as agents and editors and all that. Because it is a business of human connection. And so meeting people, you know, being able to like, actually meet people is so important. And it can be in a virtual setting as well. But I do think that I would probably try to start with an in person setting and then move to a virtual setting. I would also network a lot on social media. Social media. Like I would have like a bookstagrammer account or something, you know, because I would, I read books all the time anyway. I would post about books and I would try not worrying about follower count, but like just reaching out to people and being like, hey, you know, like, I love this book. Do you love this book too? And, and kind of connecting with people. Because so much of what we learn is the whisper network. Like, whisper networks are important above all. And I say this all the time, but truly I practice what I preach. Yes, there's an overwhelming amount of content on the Internet, 100%. But I actually think that this is where people with critical thinking can rise and stand out and set themselves apart. Like, you're not going to get discouraged by the overwhelming amount of content you're going to be. You're going to make a plan and you're going to stick to that plan and be really intentional about what content you're consuming. And never 100% trusting anything anyone is saying, not even the world's biggest expert, someone saying something. I remember being in publishing school and my professor, very accomplished, was saying the average word count of both books. And I remember being like, that doesn't sound right to me. So I looked it up and she was not right. And I told her And I was like, look, I'm sorry. Can you help me understand what you mean by the average word count? I guess this is what I'm saying. Like, use your own brain to fact check what people are saying. You know, I think it's important to do that. Yeah. That was my rant. I wanted a rant. How about you?

[C]

What would you. That's great. No, no, you answered everything. I mean, I don't need to. I don't need to rant now. I think. I think you kind of touched on this. But just to go a little bit farther on that, which is. Is conferences. Right. There are so many writers conferences out there, but how do you know which ones are the good ones? Is a huge question mark. Right. So that's where that whisper network is going to come into play. Just because a conference is local doesn't mean it's the best conference. And I will guess we'll say something controversial. Now I'll go on my rant, which is, if you want something to be a career, you have to invest some form of capital in it. Right? Whether it's your human capital, your labor, your financial capital, there has to be an investment made. Because there's a lot of people, cece and I have met them at conferences and. Or online, where it's such a hobby. And it's. And it will always be a hobby because people are not making that leap to treat it as a potential career. So they're not financially investing in it. They're not, you know, figuring out ways to make it a part of their life and take a step to transition from what they were doing before to the career that they want to have, and there's a huge cognitive shift there that has to happen. Super important. And so while I am very empathetic to people who, you know, are working multiple jobs as it is, holding down the Ford at home, have kids, there's no time, Barry. And it could just be right now is not your season of life. And to make this transition to this career, I'm not saying money grows on trees, but I do firmly believe it's like, you know, when we went to university and college, you know, when we were 21, to figure out what we want to do with our lives. Lives. There is. There is an investment there with our time, with our money, with our attention span, and that's that mental shift that has to happen.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I posted about this on Instagram not that long ago. Is writing a hobby or a career for you? I asked that question. And so many people were like, oh, it's a hobby for now because I don't make money yet. But. And I'm like, no, what? Before I ever made a cent as a lawyer, it was a career for me back when I was still spending money to one day a whole, hopefully graduate, hopefully pass the bar, hopefully get to practice law. And of course it's different because as long as you're a reasonably intelligent person who studies, you probably will, you know, make money as a lawyer. Whereas with writing, you might never make money. But that's also your decision to go into a risky career. No one has to write a book except for my clients. Clients, if you're listening, you do have to write books, but no one has to do this career. Like I. I am thankful people choose it every day, but please remember it's a choice because it is.

[C]

All right, and end rant. Okay, so next. All right, now I want to tell you guys about what's in the sub stack tomorrow, which will be followed by a really great Instagram post that Cece and I both loved. So substack tomorrow what you guys will be getting so Sarah T. Dub, author of Honeybee Mine, pens an excellent essay titled Know your rights, Setting boundaries with beta readers to keep your writing joy intact. She says, in my writing life, finding trusted writing partners has been vital. Having critique partners and beta readers gives me a way out of my own head and let someone else play with my characters and stories. It brings new and interesting perspectives, pushes me in new directions. I've been lucky to work with incredible readers and writers who have helped me in my practice of writing as well in the hard fought internal work of what it means to be a writer. But giving and receiving feedback isn't always easy or natural. Giving feedback is a skill to be cultivated in practice, just like writing. Writing and failing to do so harms writers who are bravely sharing their work. So that's a great essay you guys can get in the Tomorrow substack.

[B]

I love that. I'm also excited for Ashley Bennett's essay. She's the author of Muscles and Monsters and essentially her essay is all about like she self published a monster romance. You guys, please picture this. Please picture yourself self publishing a monster romance. And then guess what happened? Guess what happened. But she landed a deal with her dream Big five publisher. Not just a Big five publisher, but her dream. And yeah, I want to know like how she got from point A to point B. This is going to be a really good essay, so I'm excited to read that one.

[C]

All right then we also have Eleanor Shearer, author of Fireflies in Winter, a thoughtful essay called Journey to the Four Steps for Bringing History to Life in Fiction. And finally, we have Josie Lloyd and Emilyn Rees, author of youf and Me and you'd and Me and you'd and Me. Spill the beans in today's author video about collaborating writing with your spouse. I can't even imagine what that would be like. So I'm excited about that one.

[B]

Love that. Oh, my God, that sounds exciting. Okay, should we talk about the post we liked? Yes.

[C]

Yeah. So, I mean, you found this one before I did, but I was like, we have to talk about this one.

[B]

We actually both found it independently and.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Like you told me. But, like, my point is, we both liked it before we even talked about it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Why don't you summarize this one for us? Easy.

[B]

So, okay, so yon. Is that how I pronounce his name? Yadon? I would say so, yeah. So Yadon Israel. He's an editor at Simon and Schuster. He has a great Instagram account. Love his account. You should follow him. Y, A, H, D, O, N. That is his handle. He has a little blue check mark, so it's easy to spot. He's essentially, it's a. It's a post about how you should think about the agent, author relationship. And so he's saying, you know writers, you're approaching agents only thinking about how to get a deal, but it's really helpful for you to essentially think about what that means for the agent. And he talks about how agents are working, in his words, for free until they. They sell a book. And he's makes it clear that in many cases there's no salary, no retainer, no guarantee, and that they only get paid if the author gets paid. Which means that an agent is essentially making a bet, right? A bet on your manuscript, a bet on the likelihood that their labor is going to turn into a commission. And he then breaks down a couple of examples, like, for example, if your debut makes X, this is what your agent will get. And I thought that was really. It was really interesting to see an editor mention that from an agent perspective. I once remember an editor telling me, I love it when agents understand what we're up against, we editors. And I think that the flip side of that is, hey, I really think it's cool when editors understand what agents are up against. I will offer a few opinions on a few things he said. And this is not because I disagree with the overall message, because I don't I agree with everything he's saying, but there are a couple things that he says that I'm like. And actually, you know what? Lord did the same thing. So he wrote, agents typically earn 15% commission on what they sell. So if your debut sells for 20,000, the agent makes 3,000. I just want to remind everyone, and this is not again, not a pet peeve, the agency, agency makes 15. Agency. What the individual agent makes is different. People are always forgetting this. Like, I have friends who work in publishing, like editors, and we're going out to lunch and they're like, oh, so you sold that book for X, that means you made Y. And I'm like, no, that's the total commission. Right? Like different, different agents make different commissions depending on their structure. And by the way, so worth it to have a portion of that go to the agency. Because it's awesome to belong to an awesome agency. It is a thousand percent worth it. But please remember that the other thing too, he said when you work with an agent, you're enter entering into a shared risk agreement. They, they being the agent, invest labor. You provide intellectual property and you both hope it converts. And again, it's not that he disagree. I would just build on that. I actually think you're both investing labor because especially when I sign a client that I feel like needs a lot of editorial work, I am asking them to do work work before we even go out with it, before we even know if it will sell. And so it's really important that the client trusts me and loves the vision. Like never make changes that your agent asks for unless you really love the vision. I give my clients a lot of work. Guys like I know this. And so there's labor on both sides. I also think in a weird way, there's intellectual property on both sides, although only one of them will be sold, which is the author's intellectual property. But you know, the more time I spend in this career, I realize that we are accruing a framework which I know is, does not count as intellectual property for legal purposes. But, but you know, Carly, you actually really good example of this. Like you used all the, all the teachings and lessons and wisdom that you accrued over years to build your awesome course. And that is intellectual property. Right? So it's in a sense your clients get that right whenever they talk to you, whenever they, they, they, they exchange information with you because they're getting your brain. And so I think I was, I would also I guess make that, make that distinction.

[C]

The one thing that really stood out to Me. And it could just be, you know, my agent, whatever I call them, my agent antenna. I was curious to hear what you thought about this page because I. I was reading through the comments and everybody, I should say, is so thankful for this post. And everybody loved the post. There. There are no real critiques of the post, I will, I will say, but the page that says different agents experience this financial risk differently, which directly affects how much energy they can afford to put into you. I thought that was such an interesting way to frame, like, the different levels of where an agent might be in their career and their time. Because I also think like, baby agent versus now, that I'm actually way more efficient with my time in my brain space. And so something that could have taken me longer in time, labor might have taken a lot longer, but I have turned that into an energy source that is faster and processes quicker, if that makes sense. So anyway, I found that really interesting and it also made me reflect a bit on, like, I do the same job as I have always done. I do it differently. I do it faster, arguably probably better over the years by just having more experience. And I really. I thought that was a really interesting distinction.

[B]

It is. And it's. It's kind of like a paradox because a simple way to look at it is younger agent, more hungry, has more time, will invest more because your sale will mean more to them. And older agent, less time, has big clients, doesn't need your book. Like, that is a. I'm just gonna say it. That is a simplistic. In a bad way to look at it. Because it's not that these things aren't true. It's that they're not the whole truth, you know, like, there's so many other factors that matter. Yes, baby agents hungry. There is something so cool about that. Carly and I have said this on multiple times. We will always remember the people who invested in us in the very beginning. I am nowhere near where you are in your career, Carly, but I have been doing it for years now. And so for me, I remember when I first started and the people who believed in me, so much gratitude. And it can be a very smart investment. Okay, but first of all, I'm not less hungry now. And I know you're not eating. Like, we're not two. There is a lot of, like, wisdom and experience that comes with time. And also, again, this is shoot the shit. We have to be honest. So much of it is also financial anxiety. Agenting was my second career, so it was different for me. But like, if you're a baby agent straight out of university, chances are you have more financial anxiety. You might have privilege in other senses. You might have, like, really awesome parents who are willing to, like, support you and stuff, which is awesome.

[C]

Let me live in their basement for years so I could do this.

[B]

Oh, okay. You're talking about you.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

I was like, what My point is, like, that's fair, right? Like, you might not be in, like, a hard, hard strapped situation or anything like that, but. But it is different when you have. Frankly, money helps. You know, like when you're a situation, when you're making enough money, you get to buy back your time in so many other aspects of your life, and you get to have more time. You just do. And then there's also, like, the personal thing, like, how much do they have going on their personal life lives? And is that stuff that recharges them or is that stuff that drains them? So they're just. There's just too many variables, frankly. Too many variables. I think it's actually a really fair question for an author to be like, you know, hey, how does communication work with you? Hey, how do. Like, they want to know what kind of level of attention they can expect from you. I think these are totally fair questions, but I would encourage people to really, really use your critical thinking when it comes to things like that. And don't think things like, young agent, more time, older agent, less time. No, like, it all depends on too many things, and you have to really analyze all the variables.

[C]

Yeah, I think my neurons fire faster now from just the repetition of doing this job for so long, which is very interesting. But thank you to Yidon for this interesting post that inspired a lot of questions because it's definitely worth checking out. And I can see almost a thousand people already liked post, so again, some of you guys have already seen it. All right, well, that's all we have for today. We did have one DM and our pet peeves, but I actually have to run because I have a call in three minutes. Do you want to try and hammer out these pet peeves really fast or should we save them for next week?

[B]

No, we should save them for less next week. Pet peeves require time.

[C]

Okay, so we didn't get to everything today. We have to get back to our jobs, which is doing our jobs. I have a call with a client and I know CC has to get back to work as well, so we're going to save that for next week. Thank you, everybody.

[E]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CeCe, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.

[A]

What's up everyone? This is cece. Do you know something I'm always looking for when I review the slush file? Strong interiority. Well written interiority shows what your protagonist is thinking about in a way that is realistic and interesting. It propels the story forward instead of holding it back. But it doesn't stop there. A strong writer will leverage interiority into a superpower, into something I call psychological acuity. Think about it this way. Plot is what happens. Interiority is how your protagonist processes what happens. And psychological acuity is why it matters. It gives a book depth and meaning and staying power. All breakout books have psychological acuity. You have been asking me to teach a course about psychological acuity for years.

[B]

Years.

[A]

Well, it's finally here. Why did it take me so long? Because my courses take years to build. They're dense, they're thorough, and they're filled with examples and specific techniques. So this five day course begins on March 2nd. We'll have an optional interactive component. Students are invited to submit excerpts from their work for a chance to have them critiqued live during a class. If you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for Writing Interiority and Psychological Acuity. Don't worry if you can't attend live the session. Sessions will be recorded and for more information check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.