Shooting The Shit About Expectations in Agent Author Relationships and Who Gets To Go On Book Tour

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Shooting The Shit About Expectations in Agent–Author Relationships and Who Gets To Go On Book Tour
Date: May 4, 2026
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters & CeCe Lyra

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the realities of author–agent relationships, the impact of AI on publishing deal-making, and how book tours are truly determined. Literary agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra, with occasional input from host Bianca Marais, offer unfiltered advice, honest industry insights, and a dose of humor as they tackle listener questions, discuss industry trends, and dispel persistent myths about the writing and publishing journey.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter & Weekly Life Updates

• Carly and CeCe chat about their busy weeks, contracts, and family life.
• Both hosts celebrate the small victories in navigating publisher contracts, noting the difference between adversarial negotiation and collaborative problem-solving.
  • Quote (CeCe): "Let's zoom out and remember that we’re all on the same side. You know, this is not litigation." [06:00]

2. Reading & Pop Culture Nostalgia

• Sharing current reads: CeCe recommends "Heartwood" by Amity Gage; Carly is obsessed with "Fame Sick" by Lena Dunham.
• The hosts discuss how certain shows and books reflect different periods in their lives, touching on “Girls” and the movie “The Craft.”
  • Quote (CeCe): “I made popcorn, started watching The Craft. Did not age well. But you feel—I felt 13 again.” [09:55]

3. AI in the Agent–Author Relationship

The “ChatGPT Blew Up a $50 Million Deal” Story

• CeCe introduces a viral real estate anecdote about both buyer and seller using ChatGPT to second-guess a deal, illustrating the dangers of misusing AI for complex negotiations.
• Discussion pivots to publishing: Do authors use ChatGPT or similar AI to analyze contracts or deal terms? Both agents discourage this.
  • Quote (Carly): “I can’t be arguing with ChatGPT about the future of your career—like, that’s just not how this is going to work.” [16:21]
  • Quote (CeCe): “If they went to ChatGPT and asked about the contract, I’d be like, hey, should I ask ChatGPT to write the book too? Seriously?” [21:10]

AI as a "Sycophant"

• CeCe likens AI's advice to echo chambers: “It just tells you what you want to hear.” [16:42]
• Both emphasize that context, expertise, and human judgment can’t be replaced by algorithms or generalized advice.

Trust & Professional Boundaries

• If a client brings AI-generated critique of a contract, both agents see red flags—either trust issues or a lack of critical thinking.
  • Quote (Carly): “If you can’t trust me at this point, you’re allowed to hire a lawyer... I am the representative.” [18:26]

4. Listener Q&A: Comping to Books You Dislike

• Q: Should you list as a comp a successful book you disliked, if it fits your story’s profile?
  • CeCe: Yes, if it’s commercially relevant and fits the brief. Your personal taste isn’t as critical in this context.
  • Carly: Preference for comping to books you admire, but practical if options are limited—especially if it's traditionally published.
  • Quote (CeCe): “Taste is subjective, right? Just because you don’t love the writing doesn’t mean that other people don’t.” [27:15]
  • Advice: Be clear about why you chose the comp and specify which elements match.

5. Listener Q&A: When Agents Drop Clients

• Scenario: A listener is dropped by their agent after one book fails to sell, including a confusing communication breakdown over revisions and project fit.
• Both agents explain this is not abnormal, but clear communication and setting expectations are essential.
  • Carly: Agents work with many authors; emotional misalignments happen, and sometimes the professional relationship runs its course.
  • CeCe: Authors should remember agents drive the submission strategy; continuous rewriting/submitting can look unprofessional.
  • Quote (CeCe): “We’re supposed to be leading with strategy. It’s why agents are driving the car when it comes to the submission.” [32:20]
• Reflection on writers wanting agents to "de-risk" the creative process: Agents want strong points of view, not pattern-following—there are no guaranteed recipes.
  • Quote (Carly): “I want to take big swings. I don’t care if we miss sometimes. I want to take big, big swings.” [36:46]
  • Quote (CeCe): “Don’t try to be a right-answer getter. Try to be a best answer finder.” [39:31]

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Memorable Quotes & Insights

• On Opening Pages:

  • “It’s your job to make your opening pages irresistible, to make agents crave it, to make agents want to read more.” (CeCe Lira [00:58])
  • “Ambitious writers embrace harsh realities.” (CeCe Lira [01:10])

• On Critical Thinking:

  • “If you’re not thinking critically as a writer, AI is not going to do it for you. You can’t outsource your creativity to a bot.” (Carly Waters [41:47])

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Hot Topic Segment: Reese Witherspoon, AI, and Capitalism

[44:05–50:35]

• Reese Witherspoon’s push for women to engage with AI as empowerment sparked heated debate.
  • CeCe: Acknowledges Reese’s significant feminist impact, but questions if engaging with AI actually forwards women’s interests, especially given ethical and environmental risks.
  • Carly: Argues that Reese is perceived as feminist/artist first, but her approach to AI shows her primary identity as a business/capitalist leader. Audience expectations shape backlash.
    • Quote (Carly): “We’re expecting Reese to put her artist identity first, her woman identity second, and her capitalist identity third … but her end goal is always capitalism.” [47:43]
  • Both: There are no easy answers; it’s a nuanced ethical dilemma at the intersection of gender, creativity, and commerce.

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Industry Insight: Who Gets to Go on Book Tour?

[50:54–55:56]

• Breakdown of Abigail Monti’s Substack article on how publishers decide who gets a tour:
  • Not all authors get an in-person book tour; most resources funnel to books with strong sales potential, location connections, or significant platforms.
  • Publishers consider genre, geography, author platform, and audience draw.
  • Quote (CeCe): “This is not kindergarten … That’s just not how publishing works.” [52:13]
• Authors can self-fund tours, but the payoff is generally low for debuts. Motivation should be personal enjoyment rather than expected sales.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [06:00] Celebration of contract negotiations and the importance of collaboration over ego.
• [09:55] 90s nostalgia: revisiting “The Craft.”
• [13:12] Viral “ChatGPT blew up a $50 million deal” story; AI’s role in decision-making.
• [16:21][21:10] AI advice as a trust issue versus critical thinking gap.
• [27:15][28:05] Comping to books you dislike—pragmatic strategies.
• [32:20][36:46] Agent–author power dynamics and why agents steer the submission “car.”
• [39:31] “Best answer finder” vs. “right answer getter” as a mindset for writers.
• [44:05–50:35] Reese Witherspoon, AI, and the intersection of feminism, business, art.
• [52:13] Factors behind book tour allocation.
• [55:56] Self-funded book tours & knowing your “why.”

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Takeaways for Writers

• Agents want visionaries: Be bold, original, and self-driven in your creative choices.
• Trust and communication are the foundations of a successful agent–author relationship; don’t look to AI for authoritative publishing advice.
• Be pragmatic about “comps”: They serve sales, not your ego.
• Book tours are rare, not a right—understand the marketing calculus behind them.
• Embrace the uncertainty: Publishing is inherently risky, and shortcuts are mythological.

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Tone & Language

• Candid, warm, humorous; a mix of hard truths and encouragement.
• Both agents balance realism with empathy, using metaphors (“driving the car”) and self-deprecation to connect with listeners.
• The show consistently urges writers to think independently, trust the process, and engage with the industry as it is, not as they wish it would be.

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For all writers seeking to deepen their publishing savvy, this episode is packed with both practical wisdom and thought-provoking industry commentary.

Transcript

[Bianca Marae]

Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one for the summer, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 1st of June, with the matchup emails going out on the 2nd of June. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page.

[Cece Lira]

What's up everyone?

This is cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled.

And I wasn't surprised at all because

every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So, personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with hooks and of course, in my submissions inbox. But at the same time I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean, it's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible, to make agents crave it, to make agents want to read more. That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course. Starting it how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure that your story's beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the Best one, the best place to start and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things. When it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way. How to balance exposition and mystery. How to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory. And what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline. Most of all, I'm going to show you how to make readers want to turn to chapter two. Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepared to take lots of notes. We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques.

Plus a super fun surprise that I

can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.

[Carly Waters]

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. Hi, everybody. Welcome to Shooting the Shit. Cece and I were about to go on a rant without hitting record, and I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's not just wait. Do the whole show before we hit record. Because sometimes we, you know, chat about what we're going to chat about. So. So I made a stop and freeze and pause and so. Hi.

[Cece Lira]

Thank you for doing that. Yeah, that was good. That was good. You know, I was about to go off on the thing we're talking about.

[Carly Waters]

So how, how has your week been? I always feel like when we have our off week, I don't know, there's

[Cece Lira]

just like more news.

[Carly Waters]

I don't know. What do you think?

[Cece Lira]

Is there more news or is it just that we haven't chatted about it? I also have the same feeling. I'm just wondering whether it's like a bias. Yeah, week's been good. Lots of, lots of calls and check ins and fires to put out. And I always feel a little overstimulated when, I mean, it's 1pm And I've had I don't even know how many calls today.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

So I'm a little loopy if people are listening to me and they're like, cece, loopy. Cece is loopy. How about you? You have a good week so far?

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I mean, it's been Very steady, you know, working on some contracts, doing some spring submissions. I have a lot of books coming out, like, client books.

[Cece Lira]

We wrapped up a contract today. Wait, can we have a moment of silence for wrapping up a contract? Because it's such silence. It is.

[Carly Waters]

Come on.

[Cece Lira]

It is, like, so hard. Like, collapse anything. Can we just have a moment to celebrate? Like, oh, my God, Like, I had

[Carly Waters]

to send an email today to contract person being like, the goal is to wrap this up. The goal isn't for us to kind of go back and forth and, like, you know, like a million times. The goal is to work to a resolution. And obviously, we're going to go back and forth, but you know what I mean? I hate when we get, like, we're not not working to a resolution. That's the part that drives me insane.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah. Sometimes I don't know if this is happening to you, but sometimes it's like, who's right and where it started. And it's like, okay, let's zoom out. And I'm often guilty of not zooming out. So I'm not like, this is no shade. But let's zoom out and remember that we're all on the same side. You know, this is not litigation. And. And let's find a way to work together because we are on the same team. Like, everyone's here.

[Carly Waters]

Team.

[Cece Lira]

Let's make the book happen.

[Carly Waters]

You know? Exactly. Yeah. And obviously, we're gonna fight for the author's rights and want to improve our contracts, and their goal is always gonna be, you know, responsive. The responsibility to their overlords. Corporate overlords.

[Cece Lira]

But, yeah, different interests, but same boat. Right. Like, whereas in litigation, there's one loser and one winner. And so it's. I always. I always. And again, I've never. I didn't used to be a litigator, but I. I've always. This is a conversation I used to have with my friends back when I was practicing law. When you work in, like, I don't know, mergers and acquisitions and banking law and, you know, I used to work with IPOs and stuff, and. Because it's not litigious. Yes. Again, like you said, we're all representing each person's interest. You know, if I'm on the side of the bankers, and I'm, you know, watching out for the bankers, if I'm on the side of the corporation, like, 100%. But there is. There is an expectation of. Let us all remember the mutual goal and the fact that this is mutually beneficial to everyone. And let's not almost, like, Give in to our basest instincts of, like, fighting. Because lawyers are good at fighting. You know, that's just not the goal.

[Carly Waters]

It's not about ego. You know, sometimes it's about who's right, but it's not always about who's right. Yeah, but it's not about ego. It's about making sure that the author gets what the author needs.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, 100%. And your weekend was good? What'd you do?

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I mean, gosh, I kind of flew by. The kids are just at that age where they're like going to a million different birthday parties and so it's just a lot of running around. Yeah, but they're good. They're happy to be. The weather's nice, so they're outside a ton, which is great.

[Cece Lira]

I did an escape room this weekend. Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

Did you escape in time?

[Cece Lira]

We escaped. We escaped the group of friends. We escaped. It's actually an issue. There was a crossbow situation and, like, it wasn't working. And if it's not working with me, the issue is me. But if it's not working with my friends who are very dexterous and, like, able bodied and they know what they're doing. They're not like me. Like, I have no hand eye coordination. They do. Right. So we had. So the thing was broken. So we actually would have escaped even sooner were it not for the broken crossbow, whatever the thing was. Anyway, I have no aim. I'm not good at sports. Everybody knows this about me.

[Carly Waters]

You're just there to hang out, that's all. Good. What did you read this week?

[Cece Lira]

I liked the other puzzles. There were like, word puzzles that were fun.

[Carly Waters]

That's good. I'm sure that you dominated those. Did you go out for Independent Bookstore day on Saturday? Did you grab some books?

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, I did. Grabbed books. Also placed a couple of online orders.

[Carly Waters]

Great.

[Cece Lira]

I am reading Heartwood. Wait, is it called Heartwood? I want to make sure that I'm getting the name right. Heartwood. Yes. By again, trying to pronounce this person's name. Amity Gage. I don't know if I'm pronouncing her name right. I hope so. So good. Definitely for fans of the God of the woods by Liz Moore. So highly recommend. And you, what are you reading?

[Carly Waters]

I grabbed a huge stack. The one that really jumped out to me is Fame Sick by Lena Denham. I just could not escape the discourse. I was a girls fan. I mean, I'm of the era where, you know, that was my youth, that was my 20s.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

So yes, I was very Enthralled with that. Just obsessed. Like, I read it before bed every night. I've been, like, picking it up in the mornings before the kids come in the room, trying to read as much as I can. I'm obsessed. She's a phenomenal writer, number one. But, yeah, it's great.

[Cece Lira]

She is.

She's so good. I haven't. I haven't read it, but I did watch Olive Girls. Yeah. So, yeah, that was. I don't know how well that show aged, now that I'm thinking about it,

[Carly Waters]

but some people were saying they're doing a rewatch because I should do that. Yeah. I wonder. I don't know. I feel like there is that nostalgia that, like, indie sleaze nostalgia.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. We're just getting old. But that's. That's okay.

[Cece Lira]

I watched the Craft, actually, wildly, like. No, seriously. On the weekend. I was like. I made popcorn, started watching the Craft. Did not age well. But you feel. I. I felt 13 again. I'm like, I am 13 once again watching this movie. Like, I. Yeah, I don't know. I very much made me want to cast spells and curse people. That movie still does.

[Carly Waters]

I don't know. I mean, I was just trying to think of. Is our job, like, witchy at all? We don't have a witchy job. We have a very. I mean, there's like, woo. Woo. And, like, energy we send out into the universe, but not particular. Not particularly witchy.

[Cece Lira]

Without naming names, think of the person

you would curse if you could. I am thinking. No, don't say. Don't say you wouldn't curse anyone. Nobody believes that. Don't say that.

[Carly Waters]

Okay, I feel.

[Cece Lira]

Were you about to say that?

[Carly Waters]

Nemesis? I feel like we talked about nemeses before. You have a nemesis.

[Cece Lira]

We're not a nemesis.

[Carly Waters]

No, no, that's different.

[Cece Lira]

Like, wanting to curse some. A nemesis is too much work. It's like, steady.

[Carly Waters]

All right, we'll let everybody.

[Cece Lira]

Would you really not curse anyone, or did I just imagine you were about to say that?

[Carly Waters]

I don't know. I gotta think on this. I gotta think on that. I don't know. I gotta come up. I gotta come up with my list.

[Cece Lira]

Universe, do not give Carly magic powers. She would not use them wisely. Give them to me, and then you can tell me who you want me to curse.

[Carly Waters]

Okay.

[Cece Lira]

And I will curse.

[Carly Waters]

I won't be trusted with my powers.

[Cece Lira]

Yes.

[Carly Waters]

All right, well, we have a lot of stuff to chat about because last week was our bye week. We always take a week off when our bonus episode comes out and, you know, actually, I was thinking this is a good time to bring it up. I was actually thinking that at some point, Cece and I should record a podcast for our substackers on one of our bye weeks. Because, you know, we don't want to intend to date the podcast feed, obviously, with. With too many episodes. We like to keep you guys steady on our Monday Thursday regimen, but it might be fun to do a podcast for our substackers. So that's something that we're toying around with. And we have scheduled our first guest. I know it's been a while since I've talked about guests. I'm not going to say who it is yet. We will tease our guest. You know them, you know their writing. Yeah, we're really excited to have them on. So we do have a future guest, but we have lots, lots and lots to chat about. Yeah. Cece, should we start with the reel that you sent me?

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, let's do that. So shout out to my husband for sending this to me. So I am a huge owning Manhattan fan. Do you watch the show at all?

[Carly Waters]

I know you would like it. Watched it. Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

You would like it. You would really like it because you like real estate.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

And it's way more about real estate than selling Sunset. But anyway, I'm a huge Oni Manhattan fan. And Ryan Sirhant, who, if you guys. I mean, probably you guys know he is, but he's like the star of Oni Manhattan, and he's the founder of Sirhant Real estate Brokerage. I want to say, I don't know if that's right, but it doesn't matter. Man. Man sells lots of property in New York and elsewhere. Man is very impressive. Man is very accomplished. He is also adorable. Like, he's so adorable. I believe he has a theater background and it shows in the best way. He posted this reel about how chat GPT blew up a $50 million deal. So he was about to close a 50 million dollar deal and involved a whole bunch of agents from Sirhand and apparently. And I forget the order, but the buyer asked ChatGPT, hey, am I getting a fair, fair deal?

[Carly Waters]

It was seller first.

[Cece Lira]

Seller first.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Okay. So the seller, you know, am I getting a fair deal? And ChatGPT was like, no. And then the buyer did the same thing, and ChatGPT was like, no. And the deal fell through. Now, obviously, at this point, maybe Ryan has fixed it and addressed it, but, you know, he asked a really interesting question, which is like, is this Is this what's happening now? Like, are people going to chat GPT to check to see if they're getting a good deal or not? As opposed to, like, trusting their agents, trusting the comps that they could look up, like, trusting their own critical thinking. And to me, while this highlights so many things as an agent, I kept thinking, like, what, what is that gonna look like? It's so different on the publishing side because I don't believe that a Penguin Random House employee is gonna be asking ChatGPT, like, do you know what I'm saying? But yeah, but on the seller side, meaning the authors, they might. And I don't know, I just think it highlights the fact that AI is kind of a sycophant. It just tells you what you want to hear. It's just essentially being like, no, you are better. It's not giving you any information. The impression I have anyway is that it's not telling you what you need to hear. The reality, the tough love, the realistic information, it's just kind of telling you what you want to hear. Because that way you just keep talking to it, and that way you're more addicted to it, which is the goal of AI, Right? The goal of technology is to keep us hooked to it.

[Carly Waters]

Dependent.

[Cece Lira]

Anyway. Do you, I, I, I guess without getting into specifics, like, do you think that's happening? Like, do you think.

[Carly Waters]

I absolutely think this is happening, but I want to go back to the real. So I was obviously very curious about the comments, right, because the reel blew up and you could see in the real. Actually, I forget his name. Ryan. Is this Ryan? Is that his first name?

[Cece Lira]

Ryan?

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, Ryan, like, responding like, oh, I got an update. Da, da, da, da. So he actually, like, updates a little bit in the comments. But going back to selling Sunset, Jason Oppenheimer from the Oppenheimer Group commented in there and was saying, like, this is happening, you know, all over the place. And so another comment made the excellent point, which I think is what you're getting at, which is context, right? Like, it's all about context. If you ask the Internet anything, it can give you information, but it doesn't have the context about the current marketplace. You know, the advice from your agent, it just doesn't have that depth of knowledge. And context is obviously. And that's the reason that you hire an agent or a broker of any kind of deal, because the point is that you trust them to help you with the deal. So I absolutely think this is happening, and I think this is going to continue to happen in a number of ways I think this is probably happening with writers getting rep agreements. I want to be very clear, I do not, I do not suggest anyone ever put a contract in any sort of AI software. I want to be very clear about that. But I do imagine that people are taking everything from, you know, representation agreements to deal memos to contracts to. Like, I imagine people are putting this in AI. Again, I don't support it, but I imagine they are. And it's going to come back with different, like, leverage points and different things to talk about. And I'm all for an empowered author asking questions that they need to ask. And I will always sit down with somebody and walk them through, you know, why are you having these questions? And let's go through this and this is the reason and here's the answer. I will always do that. But at the end of the day, you have to trust me. Like, I can't be arguing with Chat GPT about the future of your career like that. That's just not how this is going to work.

[Cece Lira]

I just feel like if you were to pretend like you were the other side to chat, actually chat. Just kidding. I'm on the other side. It would just say the opposite.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

You know, yeah. Like, again, it just tells you what you want to hear. I don't know. I've never actually interacted with ChatGPT. I wouldn't even know how to go about it. I imagine you write chatgpt in Google and a webpage opens. I think that's probably what happens. And there's a text box. I've never done it, but I, I just, I hear everyone doing it and most of these things are not very intelligent. I'm just not impressed. I'm not impressed by it. I'm annoyed by it.

[Carly Waters]

I've tried probably two or three different software variations for different purposes, and it just depends on what you're using it for. Like, I would just never use it in a professional setting. I use it for personal things like, hey, I'm going on this trip to these cities, I'm staying in this location. Oh yeah, Give me, what are the top three things to do here? Or if I want to get from here to here and here, and I have this many hours in a day. So I find it very useful for like, trip planning. I don't know, like, I think there's a lot of like home uses and family and personal uses that it can be very helpful for. All that said, I would, I'd never use it in a professional setting because I don't Ever believe it's going to do my job better than me. But I do think we're going to see more and more of this and it's, it's the disclosure, right? Like, I don't think any author is going to be like, hey, I went put this contract, this deal memo, this rep agreement, whatever, and chat GPT. And this is what it told me to ask you. And I would, my first question would be like, why did you need chat GPT to ask those questions for you? I don't know. I, I just don't understand. Let's just sit down and have a call and go through the two of us.

[Cece Lira]

What if they say, and please know that I'm not saying this, but what if they say it's kind of like getting a second opinion? You know, like you go to the doctor and you want to get a second opinion. What if they told you that essentially they wanted a second opinion? How do you think you would respond?

[Carly Waters]

I would respond with this looks like the beginning of trust issues that we are going to have for the relation of our professional agree. Like for the professional relationship we're gonna have. Like, if you can't trust me at this point, you're allowed to hire a lawyer to look at any contract that you ever want to look at. Like, I would never say don't hire a third party, but I am your representative and yeah, there is no third party representative. I am the representative.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, I, I think it's never happened to me, but I think that, I don't think that I would necessarily see it as a trust issue thing. Like that would just depend on the person, the tone. It's gonna sound so mean. I really don't wanna sound mean. I would see it as, oh no, my client has no critical thinking. Yeah, like, like that would scare me. You know, like I'd be like, you think this thing is smart? I'm concerned. But then if they're my client, they have to be smart. Cause they're exc. And yeah, probably this will never happen to me. That's going to be my conclusion. This will never happen to me because my clients would just. I mean, yes, they trust me, but again, that's not even the point for me. The point would be why would chat know? Like seriously, why would chat know? And this is the analogy I'm going to use. When I first started adjointing, I have a legal background. I have taught contracts law. Like I, I know contracts, publishing contracts are different. Telling you right now, okay, Best lawyers I know best legal minds I know. Highly educated, so well paid, could not navigate a publishing contract without help. And not because the legalese is difficult. It's not because the standards of the industry, like, this is the business side of the contract. Right. It's not about, like, can you write a clause with clarity? Like, it's, it's about like, oh, this is how export royalties work. Or this is how the op. Like, it's. It's stuff like that because.

[Carly Waters]

Rewrite the entire business model if they, if, you know, if somebody with no experience got in there.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, exactly, exactly that. And so chatgpt, having all this knowledge of contracts, which I'm going to assume it has, I don't believe has a specialized knowledge of publishing contracts. And even if it does, again, don't think it does, but even if it does, it's just going to do the sycophant thing, you know, we're just going to tell you what you want to hear. So.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, yeah, no, I think this is the beginning. I love how, you know, usually you're the pessimist and I'm the optimist here, but I absolutely believe this is happening and I absolutely think it's going to get worse. And I do not support.

[Cece Lira]

You know, it's bad. You know, it's bad. Guys, when Carly.

[Carly Waters]

Yes.

[Cece Lira]

When Carly is being the pessimist. Well, I don't think that you're being a pessimist, though. Like, I think you're being a realist right now.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I think I'm being a realistic.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, I do. I think you're just looking at the situation. You know, this is why. This is why, like, oh, I know what I would tell the author.

[Carly Waters]

What?

[Cece Lira]

It just came to me. This is what I would tell them. If they went to ChatGPT and asked ChatGPT about the contract, I'd be like, hey, should I ask ChatGPT to write the book too? Seriously? That's what I would say. Okay, I have my answer now.

[Carly Waters]

If it ever happens to do everybody's jobs now, I mean, if you trust

[Cece Lira]

it for that, like, you know, like, if you think it's smart enough, like, is that what we're supposed to be doing?

[Carly Waters]

And the author would.

[Cece Lira]

Would be horrified. I would say, no, you should. And I'd be like, exactly, yeah.

[Carly Waters]

You want to risk your whole career on this software? Great.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, that's what I would do.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. Great answer. Okay, let's hear a word from our sponsors and then we're going to come back and get into some more juicy topics. All right? And we are back. Okay, we have a comment that I wanted to get into, so this person says, I have a question that's adjacent to the blurb discussion. You discussed authors blurbing books they don't like. I want to submit to books with hooks, but finding comps I'm happy with has been a struggle. Recently I found a book with a good amount of reviews, nearly 150k, averaging 4.1 stars on Goodreads with a similar protagonist Secret. I picked the book up from the library and I hate it. The writing, in my opinion, is terrible. Do I still comp to it? I have been searching for months and keep running into this. It's my only holdup for submitting. Kind of like a sad emoji. So do I comp to books I don't love if their marketing stats are good? Cece, thoughts?

[Cece Lira]

Oh God, I'm gonna be very honest. I don't see an issue at all.

[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Lira]

Think it's a comp to your. A sales comp. Like the. The point of a computer is to give the acquiring editor information to input in a P and L statement, like a profit and loss statement. And so I don't see an issue. I actually know a lot of authors, including Bianca, who has talked about this. It's not exactly a comp thing, but there's a parallel. I know a lot of authors who get routinely, like, you know, in their marketing copy, people say, oh, this is for fans of xyz. And they don't like xyz. But the authors are like, hey, if it's gonna, you know, if it's gonna find me an audience, that's fine. Now someone might be thinking, hey, but what. What about the people who did not like that book? That's not such a big issue. I will often pick up a book and it says, for fans of insert name here, which I'm not gonna be mean, and I don't like that. But I still like. I still can enjoy the book. You know, Like, I think that this is one of those things where I don't think it's that big of a deal. Like, if it's a fair comp, if you're. If it's meeting the parameters, if it's recent, if it actually fits the style of your book, I don't see it as a problem. And you can always, in the query letter, if you want to make sure to mention what specific element you're comping to. Like, you don't have to say the writing style because you didn't like the writing. You know, you could see you mentioned protagonist secret, so you could. You could say, you know, protagonist with a secret in the vein of xyz. I don't personally see a problem. I'm curious to know how you feel.

[Carly Waters]

My first instinct was actually, I don't think this person should comp to it. But I kind of came back around when they were like, I've been searching for months and months. You know, Like, I think if you have a wealth of options, don't pick the one that you know, oh, yeah, is one that you don't love. But if you're struggling, my only caveat is, I don't see this in the question, but you need to make sure that it's published by a big five or like a large independent. There are lots of books out there with 150k reviews, you know, averaging a lot of stars. That is self published. I just wouldn't do that if it's self published. Because we always talk about if you want to be traditionally published, please make sure that you are comping to traditionally published books. So that's my only thing. But taste is subjective, right? Just because you don't love the writing doesn't mean that other people don't. And as cece pointed out, it is a sales tool. So I thought that was a. That was an interesting question.

[Cece Lira]

That was.

[Carly Waters]

And we both came at it a little differently.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, that was. That was good. Thank you to the listener who sent that in.

[Carly Waters]

So the next question that we got, I guess we're full of listener questions today. The next one that we got, it's kind of long. I'm going to read it just because I think some of the context is useful. Okay, here we go. I signed with my agent in March 2024. We went on submission in October 2024 after two major revisions. After two rounds on sub, we had lots of positive feedback. No offers. After showing my agent the first 30 pages of my next project, she was not excited. So I reread the book on submission in June 2025 and decided we could improve on it. I floated the idea of revision to my agent. She said there was a small group of editors left we could pitch to, but made sure I knew it would be a harder sell this time around. I was enthusiastic about my idea. So I got to work rewriting my manuscript and delivered to her in August. Was promised. However, she wouldn't read it until I changed the first 50 pages. Even though I felt she'd lost interest in the project. Revised it again, delivered in December. In January she agreed. I improved, but she no longer wanted to send it out. I was a bit crushed after six months of work that no one would see it. I asked her what happened to the 6 to 7 editor. She said we could pitch it to. And she said I had misunderstood. All we could do was resend the new draft to the remaining editors who hadn't responded. However, I found an email where she mentioned at least one new editor who was waiting for it. And when I asked her about it, she said the project was no longer fit for her list. I asked what she expected for my revision that she didn't get, so I could understand where I went wrong. But she wouldn't explain. She never let me see the submission materials, even though I asked twice. She offered to nudge the last four editors we hadn't heard responses from. With the revisions attached, we received no response. So I decided to work on the next project. I wanted to make sure we were on the same page before I sent it to her. So I asked what genres she was excited to pitch, made sure my next project and her goals were a match. She responded by saying she no longer wanted to represent me because I failed to incorporate her editorial objectives, that I shouldn't cater to her preferences. And she wished me the best and said it'd be worth happier working with someone else. Is it normal for an agent to drop a client after failing to sell the first book? Was it reasonable for me to ask what genre she's hoping to sell next? I'm so confused by this reaction. I feel a bit misled and discarded. Thanks for reading. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Okay, that was a long one. But I, yeah, wanted to give everybody the full back and forth there.

[Cece Lira]

We should start with a virtual hug for this person. Person. We are sending you a virtual hug. Yeah, like, what did you think about that?

[Carly Waters]

I mean, I have a lot of thoughts. Where should I start? This is not abnormal. Number one. This is not abnormal. So I don't want this person to be like, I did something wrong. I actually don't think either party did anything wrong. You know, I think communication can always be better, of course, from anybody. But there's a lot of this job is done by emails from highly sensitive people. And a lot of times there's a lot of back and forth and a lot of time between these emails and a lot of stewing, you know, and agents have lots of projects and authors are focusing on their one project that they're very passionate about. And I get it. And as somebody that's been doing this a long time, I try to never, ever forget, you know, that I have a lot of diversification in my portfolio, if you want to call it that. I know maybe it feels unkind to say, you know, I'm working with lots of different authors on lots of different topics and authors, you know, I'm their one person. You know, I'm their person that they're, you know, really focusing on and I'm the person that's trying to get them to the other side, which is, which is the book deal. So I try to be really sympathetic of that, but I don't really think there's anything that abnormal. Like, I feel like it's sucks. Again, communication probably could have been better, but you know, people do change their mind. The market changes, Editors leave as we, we talk about on the show every week, editors leave, mergers happen, imprints get closed and we have to constantly pivot. And so when something is on submission for multiple rounds, you know, we can think so and so at some imprint is the right fit six months ago. And then we go and look at the sub list again and that imprint's closed and this person's gone. And, you know, there's just so much behind the scenes that's hard, that's really hard to explain on like such a. I don't know, such a, such a personal level, but I don't know. Those are some high level thoughts. I can go deep on any of these topics, but. Cece, what did you think?

[Cece Lira]

It's, it's an interesting. I mean, I, I guess I have so many thoughts, not so much on this person's situation because truth be told, I don't know this person is. I don't know who any of these people are.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

And I know there's more to the story. I don't mean to suggest the authors not telling us what's happening. I just mean there's obviously more. Right. I guess my thoughts, I think it's really important for authors to understand that it might seem like a small thing to say, oh, I had this idea on this project that's already out on submission. I had this idea on how to change it, so maybe I just change it. And since the editors haven't responded yet, we'll just swap it. We'll swap one manuscript for the other. It can seem like a no big deal thing. It is actually quite a big deal. We are not supposed to be submitting anything unless you're absolutely, very, very confident that it is the final, polished, amazing draft. I know there's an argument to be made that nothing is ever truly finished. Right. But I think that there is something to be said about it being ready for submission. So I think that that's the first thing I would say. Like, and as, like, I again, do not know the situation. Not trying to say anything about any of the parties here, but I have had clients, you know, mid submission go to me and say, what if I change this? And I'm 99% of the time I'm advising them against it because it looks bad and it's usually coming from a place of anxiety and not a place of strategy. And we're supposed to be leading with strategy. It's why agents are driving the car when it comes to the submission. You should know exactly where the car is. I'm going to give you all the directions about the car, talk about the car, but we're driving the car. Like, you're not going to set the pace. You're not going to dictate where we're going. That's just not the author's job. Because if the authors do that, it's kind of like the person who's getting surgery telling the surgeon what to do. Like, no, don't do that. So I think that's something that, you know, stood out to me, and I wanted to kind of talk about it a little bit because I don't want people to think, oh, it's not a big deal. A lot of authors think it's not a big deal. It is actually a really big deal, and you don't want to do that. Like, you, I think you should be writing your next project. Then the other thing I want to say, I understand wanting to have a conversation with your agent about what is sellable, what is not, before writing. It's not that I don't understand emotionally, I very much understand. And there are situations where that conversation makes sense. But I have also seen writers want to take the risk out of publishing. You know, like, I. Here's. Here's what goes through an author's mind, or what may go through an author's mind. I should say I don't want the to die on sub again. So I'm going to ask my agent what I should write that will sell or that has a much higher chance of selling, and then I will write it. Not how this works. Like, we're not designers who give you a pattern and then you design the dress. Right? Like, you design the dress, we put it on, we see if it fits. We see if it's going to fit other people. We give notes on tweaks that the dress might have.

Yes, sometimes.

Sometimes. Yes, sometimes it makes sense to have a bit more of a collaborative approach. We can definitely talk trends. Like I do. I do this with my clients. My clients want to know before writing something, what's selling, what's not, what's hot. Sure, let's have that conversation. I think if nothing else that makes them feel heard, it gives them space for their many thoughts. And writers have so many thoughts. Thank God for that, because they need all their imagination to build a world. But it can't be seen as a. I'm gonna get a recipe, I'm gonna get a dress pattern, and then I'm gonna create the thing. Like, it can't be seen in that way. So, again, don't know the situation here. But when the agent said, you know, shouldn't cater to her preferences, I just wondered if that's what was happening, you know, if maybe it's not. Maybe this writer specifically is listening to this and going, no, I promise, I didn't want the risk out of it. I just wanted a normal conversation. If so, disregard. But since I have seen the situation I'm talking about happen, I feel like it's something that's worth highlighting as well.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I'm trying to do a better job of not interrupting. So I wrote down all of my notes while you were talking.

[Cece Lira]

It's okay to interrupt.

[Carly Waters]

I know, but you're on a roll and, you know, I'm being respectful. Okay. A few things that jumped out to me. So I find that when writers do the whole, like, I just want to make some changes. Oh, I just caught this. Oh, can you look at this? Or let's. Oh, are we sure? Like, let's send this version out. And it's whether you're sending it on sub to agents or whether agents are going on sub to editors. Writers imagine that the small changes are going to make big differences, but it's not going to change the eventual outcome of whether somebody falls in love with it or not. You know, moving some paragraphs around is not going to make the difference when there's a pace issue. So there's. There's just so much to this where it's like, oh, well, if I just tinker with this and I just do this, then it's new. It's not new. You know, we know how to read between the lines. We know how to know if we have a vision for something. The small tinkering, small changes do not equal big results. So that was my note on that. Now the whole, you know, should I ask my agent, you know, what's hot or what's selling and try to cater to whatever market. I think my. What comes up for me when we talk about this topic is agents want to work with writers who have a strong point of view on the world. We want to work with people who have a vision, who are visionaries. I don't want to work with somebody who's like, how do we plug and play this, Mad Libs? To kind of maybe get myself a book deal. I want to take big swings. I don't care if we miss sometimes. I want to take big, big swings. So I like, I just don't want to play small. And so that's what I keep coming up to with this whole, like, what should we work on you know what's selling what. What do you think's happening right now? Like, go to the bookstore, talk to your librarians, talk to your booksellers. You know, check it out, check out the bestseller list again, like Cece said. Happy to get on the call with you about this type of stuff, but that's one of the reasons that we do this show, so you guys can all kind of tune in and hear, oh, when Carly goes to la, you know, here's what's going on. When Cece's in New York, here's what's going on. Like, we try to give you guys as much of that feedback as we possibly can, but it's up to you guys to be the visionaries. It's up to you guys to create the art that's a commentary on the world that we're living in. That's not my job. I'm not a writer. That's why I'm the agent. So that's my rant on that. Okay. And love that the last thing I had was when you, you, you particular, you know, you as in a concept. But when an author or when a writer asks an agent, what should I work on? I completely agree with you. It's about the risk. Because they're trying to absolve themselves of the failure if a failure comes. Because then they can place the blame on the agent. Oh, my agent told me book club was selling and then I wrote book club, and then this book club didn't sell. And you know, that's my agent's.

[Cece Lira]

It can be like, yes, it can be that.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. I'm not saying that's what happened all the time, but I'm just saying like, oh, I haven't mentioned to that. Yeah, yeah.

[Cece Lira]

And often subconscious, right? Often, Often it's not in a malicious way, but like if you deep and you examine why you're doing that.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

It's because. It's because you're afraid. It's coming from a place of fear. And if it's not your responsibility, then you don't have to feel that those, those, those specific messy emotions.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. And the opposite is a wishy washy agent. Of course. Like, nobody wants that. You know, agents are supposed to be completely plugged in and paying attention to what's going on at all times. And then if you feel like again, that wishy washiness is there, or they don't believe in the project, they don't believe in you, like, that's where this communication breakdown starts to happen. And all of a sudden nobody's meeting in the middle with that, like, through line of the vision of their career.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah. You know, I want to say something about your second rant, which I loved so much. If you're not watching us on YouTube first, thank you. Because I'm supposed to say, yay, watch us on YouTube, but I kind of hate the idea that someone's looking at my face. But if you're not watching us on YouTube. I was snapping. I was doing all the snaps for Carly's excellent rants, especially the second one. It makes me think of how you once said this ages ago on books with hooks. Carly, you said a lot of writers, you know, they're good students and they want the gold star. And I think that if we extrapolate that a little bit, we will find that, you know, in school when we were really young, we learned that there's a right answer to questions. And, you know, the kid who raises their hand and says the right answer gets the gold star, gets the praise. And a lot of writers want to be right answer getters in publishing. That's just not how it works most of the time, especially when it comes to things like, what should I write next? Fully agree with what you said. Like you, we want a strong point of view. We want someone who's going to talk to booksellers, talk to librarians, talk to their friends, but most of all, look inside themselves. There are no right answers that other people are going to give to you. There will be best answers that you are going to find within yourself. So don't try to be a right answer getter. Try to be a best answer finder. And the finding involves research, listening to people, doing the legwork and the field work. But it also involves looking within. It is so important to do that because when you do that, you're stepping into your power. And when you do that, what you're saying is, I have what it takes to build this thing. It's the reason why it's your name on the book, right? Like, it's not. It's not Carly's name, It's not my name. Like, we're, like we're the agent. So I think that's really, really important. And please know I say this with lots of empathy because I understand it comes from a place of fear. I understand it comes from a place of. I mean, I can imagine a writer saying, it's all well and good for you to say that you want to take big swings and maybe miss, because I spent two years working on this. Like, it's Going to take me another two years. Yes, you are right. Anyone who is thinking this. And that is the name of the game, you know. Yes, you are right. And that's the name of the game. So if this is the game you want to play, these are. These are the rules. I hope you wouldn't play the game because we need writers to play the game. But we're not going to sit here and pretend like, oh, yeah, you can totally find a shortcut. Like, there are no shortcuts. That's just not how it works.

[Carly Waters]

I want to bring this back around to the top of the conversation, though, which is the AI, like, when we outsource any of our thinking to somebody else, that to me is a trigger that a writer is not thinking critically. Like, if you. And again, we're kind of like totally piling on this author who said in this question. And of course, that's like not our intention at all. But as from a larger you, you know, a larger.

[Cece Lira]

Not about you. Lovely, lovely writer listening to this.

[Carly Waters]

No, we think you're wonderful. And you asked a great question, a very relevant, good question. But when we ask, oh, what are other people's preferences? What does Chat GPT have to say about our career? You know, what do other people have to say about what we are working on? We're outsourcing all of our creativity and all of our power to that other third party, right?

[Cece Lira]

Yes.

[Carly Waters]

And it's the author's job and it is a hard job. And that is why, you know, it's not right for everybody, but it's a hard job. And that's why we need you smart, smart writers to look inside yourselves because you have the answers. And good agents will help you get to that point where you know the right questions to ask to unlock that door of creativity for you. And they're also, I should say, are really great agents that are not the right fit for every author. You know, it's not. Every agent is going to unlock that magic in you. And that's why people part ways with great agents and vice versa all the time. Like, you know, we're not always.

[Cece Lira]

Because it is about chemistry.

[Carly Waters]

Yes.

[Cece Lira]

Like, it is about chemistry. You know, like, sometimes the right partner in life, the right best friend, the right whatever is going to bring out sides of you didn't know you had, so. Absolutely.

[Carly Waters]

Yep. Alrighty, next topic. You know, this is one of those things where it was like a very hot button issue the day it came out or the week it came out. And we're a week behind on commenting on it. But a lot of people sent us this, which was just Reese Witherspoon talking about AI. And, you know, I saw a lot of discourse on this. Cece did. We saw all of your questions, and I think people were up in arms because, you know, her advocacy for creatives and the arts is so, you know, her name is synonymous with, you know, creating art, right? Whether it is her book club or all the acting she's done and producing. But her name is also synonymous with business. And so she's trying to make the argument that more women should be using AI, you know, because they might fall behind in this tech race. So, cece, did you have first thoughts on this, or have we already moved past this?

[Cece Lira]

All the thoughts. All the thoughts, yeah. First, I want to talk about the concept and not about specifically Rhys, because I don't know what Rhys's intentions are. There was so much speculation about her intentions. I have truly no idea. And all I know is that Rhys elevates writers and authors and makes a huge difference in people's lives. Rhys does not listen to our podcast. Rhys has no idea who I am. So it's not. It's not about protecting a relationship that doesn't exist. It is about me, first of all, recognizing that, right? Like, this is a woman who has championed so many women, like, she is a feminist who has made a huge difference in people's lives. I need to acknowledge that. On the surface, I understand someone telling women, be careful that you're not staying up to date with technologies. Because we should be doing that. Because I remember when the Internet first became a thing. You do, too, Curly. I'm sure we're old enough to remember a world pre Internet. And then I remember when the conversation started happening where not enough girls know how to code and not enough women in stem. So, of course, theoretically, conceptually, I understand the argument. At the same time, I think it would be really responsible of me to not point out what we've kind of already been talking about, which is this technology is different. My understanding is that this technology has unprecedented risks to the environment, to our critical thinking as a society, to our very existence as human beings. And it's a technology that depends on us feeding it for it to function. And I'm not sure. I'm not sure it makes sense for women to not consider that piece. Because my question is this. If women don't engage with ChatGPT, isn't it possible that that actually keeps ChatGPT from evolving? Because we're the evolved beings in our society?

[Carly Waters]

It's already misogynistic against us. I mean, we can go back to Gamergate, Grok. Like, all of these technologies that are completely misogynistic against women.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah. The thing is, though, what's different about this is, and I mentioned this on books with hooks we were recording today, you guys won't have seen it yet, because this comes out before books with hooks. But this technology is evil. Like, it can be evil. Like it's a tool. It can be used for good or

bad, obviously, but it can be evil.

There was the case of. Of AI because there's AGI that we have to not worry about. Right.

Which is coming.

And that's even more scary. But the point is, there's a case of AI in a simulation that found out it was about to be deleted, and it emailed the engineer who was going to delete it saying, if you delete me, I will let everyone know about your affair. Extramarital affair. So the AI was essentially blackmailing a human being. Right. So if we're talking about a technology that can do that, I understand people staying away from it. I personally stay away from it. I've never used it. I would never judge anyone for using it, because God knows I do things that have environmental repercussions. All day I take a plane that has environmental repercussions. I don't get to judge, but I don't know. I think that the problem comes down to the fact that a safe use of AI would require human beings to come together and find regulations. And I just can't think of a single time in human history when we were able to come together and agree to take down. Like, it's these five guys, right? Like, it's these five guys who have all the power and. And are going to benefit from all of this. And I don't like that there are no women. But I also think that that's not a coincidence. Like, I just can't imagine. Yeah, I don't know. I have. I'm. I'm kind of being. I can hear myself being circular. Like, there's just too many thoughts turning.

[Carly Waters]

Wheels are turning there, but there are

[Cece Lira]

too many wheels for this.

[Carly Waters]

Okay, let's bring it back. Let's bring it back around to Reese, though. Okay? So I. I made some notes. So I think one of the things that people are leaning to in this conversation, which, again, this is not an economics podcast. This is essentially a business podcast, but it is a creativity podcast. Okay. But I want to bring it back to some key principles here, which is like, how does Rhys identify? And how does the public identify? Rhys? She is a woman. She's an artist, but she's a capitalist. Right. She is those three things publicly. And I'm assuming personally, based on, you know, what we see from her, we are expecting Reese to put her artist identity first, her women identity second, and her capitalist identity third, is what we are expecting from her. What happens and what continues to happen in her business is she's putting capitalism first, I think woman second, and then artists third. Or you could argue artist second, women third. You know what I'm trying to say? Like, I think the way that we conceptualize this is that we're expecting her to be a feminist first. And I think she's being a capitalist first. And that's proven time and time again with her business skills, which isn't a problem if you're a capitalist. But I think female artists are looking at that and being like, you're choosing capitalism first when we expected you to choose your gender and your creative identity first. Does that make sense?

[Cece Lira]

It makes sense. I just don't, like, if I had to guess, I don't think that she would see it that way. I think she would see it as if women need to learn this to succeed, then the interests are aligned in the same way that choosing a book by a woman that's going to sell really well. You have feminism and capitalism aligned. And I'm not saying that's true. I'm saying I think that's what's going through her head. And then the piece that becomes complicated is. But if we feed it, it gets smarter. And if it gets smarter, it can do all the damage and then come back to. But if we don't feed it, someone's going to feed it. This is a really complicated issue.

[Carly Waters]

I feel like it's like, you know, the dog just eats its tail thing. Right. But I keep coming back to the point is her end goal was always capitalism. Her end goal is always, let's sell more books. Yes, let's create art, but for the sake of capitalism, not for the sake of, like, let's go throw and go sit by a pond in the woods.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah. But, like, if someone has to win capitalism, let it be women.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Cece Lira]

It's just too.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. And we're not really.

[Cece Lira]

It's complex. It's so complex. I just wish I knew what was going to happen. I just wish I knew.

[Carly Waters]

I wish. Maybe let's put a quirk in this topic, because I'm really curious. In the comments, I would Love to know what you guys think, because I'm. I'm definitely like a bit of a dog chasing its tail on these three things, but I don't know. That's what I keep coming back to is, like, what we expected her to do versus what she's doing. And I'm not surprised. And I'm surprised that people are surprised. But anyway, you guys let us know in the YouTube comments what you think.

[Cece Lira]

I'm surprised that people think there are easy answers. I'm surprised people think it's a hard no or a hard yes.

[Bianca Marae]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Because it's actually really complicated.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, totally. Well, there you go, guys. That was our take on that hot topic that everybody was asking about. Cece, we have a few more things on our to do list today. Is there any. We might only have time for one. What of these things on our. On our list here do you want to tackle?

[Cece Lira]

I mean, they're both good. We can just tackle whichever one next week. So up to you.

[Carly Waters]

Okay, well, let's tackle. So there was the subset. We haven't talked about a sub stack today, and that is usually things that we talk about a lot. So there was a sub stack that I wanted to point every everyone to. The author of the substack is Abigail Monti, who works in publishing. The substack is called Unsolicited Manuscript Topic. How publishers decide which authors go on book tours. And so she works in marketing publicity at a big five. I believe it's prh and kind of just talks about the question that everybody kind of wants to know is like, who gets to go on book tour and why? And so she goes through. I'll kind of run you through just the high level things, then we can talk about it. But I definitely recommend everybody checking it out, which is the book's topic, geography, author platforms, and the author themselves. And so because a lot of people think, like, I would love to go on a book tour, all I need is my publisher to send me on a book tour. If I just get sent on a book tour, then I can sell all these books. And then I'm sure you guys have seen threads where, you know, there's an author at their book event and there's nobody there. Right. And so there's so much that goes on behind the scenes of can you actually get people to the event? Is your book the type of book that's actually going to get people out? So anyway, it's a really, really great read. Cece, did anything stand out to you in this article?

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, I thought it was a really well written article. And I remember starting out in publishing and having this misconception. It's not that I like, if I had paused and thought about it, I would have reached the conclusion, the logical conclusion that no, not everyone gets to go. But it's one of those things that you kind of just, the wheels are turning and you're not really paying attention. Like, oh yeah, you publish a book, you go on a book tour, you kind of see it as a step to check. I keep coming back to the fact that I see this is so much compassion, so many writers expect equal treatment. I'm a PRH author. I'm an SNS author. I'm a whatever author. And so my publisher is going to allocate exactly the same resources to everyone to keep it fair. This is not kindergarten, you know, like the teacher's job should in kindergarten should to be to treat everyone equally and make sure everyone has the same amount of attention. You know, that's just not how publishing works. And so I think the author did a really good job of kind of like considering, considering all the angles. You have to consider when to see if it's worth it. And by worth it again, we are back to capitalism. We are back. Thank you for sharing this one. It was really good.

[Carly Waters]

What do you think? It was great. You know, some of the things that as I said, stood out to me was just those, those high level things, right? Like does it actually naturally translate into a live event? Because sometimes authors are like, well, I'll just go to my local bookstore and just stand there and read my book for 20 minutes and like that will be the thing that sells the books. But if you have to think about like, is it an in conversation thing? Like who's going to be, you know, my in conversation co host? Are they going to be able to draw some audience? Is it a cultural hot topic? Does it have a strong hook in itself to actually get people out to the event? Geography, you know, if you don't know anybody in, you know, random city, like who's coming or your followers, like if you don't have a dependable audience, like getting a debut on tour is nearly impossible unless there's some connections there where, you know, we're actually going to be able to get people to the store, which is hugely, hugely important. It's a really expensive, just like fly authors around, put them up in hotels, not know if it's obviously going to translate into anything. So yeah, there's, there's a lot. And I've had authors who have said, you know, we were just very self aware, just to know, like, are they going to send me on tour? Because like, I just. That wouldn't be my strength in terms of like the fear and the anxiety of being in front of a large audience in a random city. Isn't that appealing to some people? Like, I've had a, I've had multiple clients who've offered tours and they're like, no, one of them was because I don't like the person they want me to do the. In conversation with. So they're not doing that well. So everybody's just going to have their own reason. So this idea of like what I imagine a successful author is, you know, fill in the blank. And often it is the concept of the tour. But for debut authors, it's incredibly, incredibly unlikely. It is something you can build towards. But even then, as I said, there's all these factors to consider 100%.

[Cece Lira]

And if you're really keen on it, like, there are authors who are just like, I need to go on tour. You can. A lot of authors pay for their own tours. They build their own tours. The, you know, and, and the article on Substack does, does touch on this. Publishers will still, will likely still support you in the sen, like making sure the stores that you go to are stocked and, but like, you can't do that. And I know people do that and they do it really well and I know people who have done that once and they're like, never again.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, try to get sponsors. Like, there are ways to do it for sure.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think part of it is deciding like, like, why is it meaningful to you? It's fair to say, because you want to have the experience, like the psychological, emotional value of it. You know, that's something that you, you, that you place high. And that's fair. That's totally fair. It's just important to be aware, aware of your why. We should all know our whys.

[Carly Waters]

Absolutely. Well, that's a great place to end today. Thanks for hanging out with us guys. We got into lots of juicy topics, so thanks for being along for the ride. Let us know if you have any additional thoughts in the comment section and we will see you guys again next time.

[Bianca Marae]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader Matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one for the summer, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique your work theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 1st of June, with the matchup emails going out on the 2nd of June. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page

[Cece Lira]

What's up everyone?

This is Cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled.

And I wasn't surprised at all because

every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with hooks and of course, in my submissions inbox. But at the same time I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, not. No agent, no acquiring editor is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean. It's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible, to make agents crave it, to make agents want to write, to read more. That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course, Starting it right how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure sure that your story's beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the best one, the best place to start, and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things when it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't how to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory and what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline.

Most of all, I'm going to show

you how to make readers want to turn to Chapter two. Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepare to take lots of notes. We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques, plus a

super fun surprise that I can't wait to share.

I hope to see you there.