Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Shooting the Shit About External Publicity, Publishing in the Age of Kickstarter, and the Alleged Gambling Problem
Date: October 6, 2025
Hosts: Carly Watters & CeCe Lyra

Overview

In this candid, industry-insider episode, agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra tackle some of the hottest topics and lingering questions in book publishing. Focusing on the realities of publicity (especially the external kind), groundbreaking changes like the success of author-led Kickstarter campaigns, and the controversial notion that traditional publishing is essentially legalized gambling, the duo shares their personal insights, hard truths, and practical advice for both writers and industry up-and-comers.

Whether you’re querying, debuting, building a career, or simply curious about how books get out into the world, this episode pulls back the curtain—delivering both laughs and sobering realities.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life Updates & Recent Reads

(03:17 – 09:47)

• Weekend Updates

  • Carly’s family life, her kids’ “rink rat” hockey experiences, and prepping a keynote for the DFW Writers Conference.
  • CeCe spending time prepping her upcoming course on writing tension.

• Literary and Nonfiction Reads

  • Carly discusses reading All Fours by Miranda July, noting, “It’s a mushroom trip of a novel” (05:13), with lots of open-door sexuality, aligning with a broader trend in both literary and romance fiction.
  • CeCe raves about Spectacular Things, likening its confidence in narrative style to Lessons in Chemistry, and highlighting its themes of sacrifice, family, and systemic issues in sports fiction.
  • Nonfiction picks: Both appreciate Morgan Housel’s approach to the psychology of money.

“If you work in the industry, the ability to read for fun comes and goes, let’s just say.” — Carly (09:47)

2. The Truth About Publicity and Publicists

(10:05 – 17:52)

Key Listener Question:
Is hiring an external publicist really necessary? What are the expectations and misconceptions?

Industry Realities

• Publicity Roles Differ by Author Type: Debuts, mid-listers, and high-advance authors all have wildly different experiences.
• Publicity Is Not a Magic Wand: Many debuts feel pressured to reinvest advances but lack experience or understanding of goals.
• Clarifying Terms:
  • Brand building (long-term reputation) vs. Sales (immediate conversion).
  • External publicity is “not because the in-house publicists aren’t doing a good job” — it’s about “adding more troops to your army.” (13:43, CeCe)
  • Publicity is “an obligation of means, not results.” There are no guarantees, and the market is oversaturated with pitches.

Essential Advice

• Know your own goals: What does “publicity” mean for your book?
• External publicists aren’t there to “do it for you”—they’ll work with you. You must be engaged, pitching essays, brainstorming op-eds, and researching markets.
• Do your homework: Talk to authors who have hired publicists, understand expectations, and know what different firms really offer.

“You are not hiring someone to do the work for you. You’re hiring someone to do the work with you.” — CeCe (16:39)

3. Agenting and Industry Change: Is the Job Evolving?

(18:26 – 26:26)

• Carly’s Conundrum: Finding it harder to give relevant advice to new agents as the industry shifts. "Does it actually relate now? Is it actually harder to be an agent now?" (18:30)
• CeCe’s (Bantering) Rebuttal: “No, you’re great at giving advice... you make it personal.” (19:13)
• Essential Soft Skills for Agents:
  • Memorable personality and self-awareness.
  • Cannot be passive: “You need to make things happen.” (CeCe, 22:07)
  • Arrive prepared: “If I have to explain really basic things in an informational interview, it tells me you haven’t done research…” (CeCe, 23:10)
• Financial Realities: Open conversations about money, risk, and the slow track to income are critical.

“It’s incredibly entrepreneurial. Are you willing to risk it all?” — Carly (25:35)

4. The Kickstarter Revolution: Authors as CEOs

(26:47 – 31:38)

The Phenomenon:
Authors Ali Hazelwood & Adriana Herrera’s Kickstarter for a new collection was a runaway success—raising almost $700,000 in 24 hours, smashing their $10k goal and eventually topping $1 million.

Discussion Points:

• Why Did This Work?
  • Years of community/reader outreach, careful planning, and strategic branding.
  • Authors as driving force—ownership, control, email lists, and fan engagement.
  • A “Swiftian” parallel: fans want their dollars to support people, not just corporations.
• What This Means for Publishing:
  • Shakes up the ‘author as victim’ narrative; authors can be business-strategists.
  • Raises well-founded questions about the evolving role of traditional publishers.

“It speaks to the author as the talent, the content creator, as the visionary… the CEO of this new venture.” — Carly (29:50)

5. “Delusions of Grandeur” — Money, Power, and Publishers

(31:38 – 36:15)

• Topic: Words of Women post & Instagram Reel by Lauren Martin about wanting a Porsche, the symbolic relationship between publishing "success" and luxury.
• Key Takeaway:
  • Being published by a Big 5 publisher puts you in the "1-2%"—akin to Porsche owners. Yet even then, women are culturally discouraged from “wanting more” or spending nonsensically on themselves.
  • Celebrating the idea that “women are allowed to be nonsensical with their money” is itself radical.

“Whatever your Porsche is… There’s a thing and there’s a symbol that is so nonsensical… that, to me, is the epitome of feminism and money and power.” — Carly (35:23)

6. The Walrus Article — “Publishing’s Gambling Problem”

(41:23 – 50:34)

• Article Context: The Walrus ran a piece characterizing the publishing business as institutionalized gambling.
• Listener Reaction:
  • Some listeners were “shocked”; others thought it was old news.
  • CeCe: “Publishing doesn’t have a gambling problem. It is gambling… and that’s okay.” (43:18)
  • Carly: “I am one of the institutionalized gamblers… who has gambled my entire career.” (44:53)

Key Points Discussed:

• Most books are financial losses; advances are investments, not “rates.”
• Corporate consolidation and risk-averse climate lead to heavy bets on a handful of titles.
• The system is not always fair, but understanding the business reality is essential for managing expectations and crafting a career.
• The unpredictability is both excruciating and, for some, energizing.

“We can never predict what’s going to happen. That’s what keeps this job and industry really exciting and fun.” — Carly (48:28)

“Publishing requires surrender. Surrendering of this urge to control… I empathize, but you gotta surrender.” — CeCe (50:09)

7. Bonus: Day-in-the-Life of Publicists & Other Resources

(50:34 – End)

• Link to PRH article on in-house publicity teams' daily routines—recommended resource for more transparency (51:07).
• Newsletter and Resource Reminders: The hosts highlight upcoming resources and tools for paid newsletter subscribers.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On wanting and deserving more:
  • “Maybe I’d never be rich enough for a Porsche, but I had been in the 1%, I.e. being published by a Big Five publisher, and I had written my way there.” — Lauren Martin, quoted by Carly (34:16)
• On publishing as gambling:
  • “Publishing doesn’t have a gambling problem. It is gambling.” — CeCe (43:18)
• On soft skills and agency:
  • “If you want to be an agent, you cannot be a passive person. You need to make things happen.” — CeCe (22:07)
• Publicity advice:
  • “You are not hiring someone to do the work for you. You’re hiring someone to do the work with you.” — CeCe (16:39)

Segment Timestamps

• 03:17 – Weekend and reading catch-up
• 10:05 – Deep dive: Publicists and publicity myths
• 18:26 – How the job of being an agent is changing
• 26:47 – Kickstarter mega-success & author empowerment
• 31:38 – “Delusions of Grandeur”: Women, publishing & money
• 41:23 – Reactions to the Walrus’ “Gambling Problem” article
• 50:34 – Recommended PRH article; calls for newsletter subs
• 51:10 – Wrap-up

Tonal Notes

Conversational, refreshingly candid, and sometimes irreverent, Carly and CeCe blend warmth and humor with no-nonsense advice and hard-won industry wisdom. Their arguments are rooted in both empathy for writers and a pragmatic outlook shaped by years as agents in a competitive, often mysterious business.

Final Thoughts

This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking an honest breakdown of what it takes to succeed and survive in publishing right now. Aspiring authors, querying writers, and industry newbies will all find a mix of reality checks, useful strategies, and permission to want—and work for—success on their own terms.