← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Shooting the Shit About High Brow vs. Low Brow and Editors Who Hate Their Jobs
00:44:48
Shooting The Shit
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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. All right, so we were very cruel and mean last week because we teased that we were going to be somewhere, and yet we did not tell you where we were going to be. And so cece and I talked to Bianca and we said, bianca, is it okay if we share the news about where the event is if you are not on the show with us? And she said, yes, because we record our books with hook segments so far in advance that Shooting the Shit is our. More. Our weekly episodes. As you guys know, we only record these about five days in advance of you guys listening to them. So do we do a drum roll? I'll do a little drum roll. Cece, should we do drumroll? Drum roll. Can you hear that drum roll? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so the three of us have actually never done a in person conference. So we did Bianca's book launch event, which was so fun and I loved meeting you guys. I can't believe we filled a 400 person room to do that event. I'm just so thrilled that Bianca had an incredible launch. All this to say. So we are doing a conference where there's going to be a live podcast recording and CeCe and I will be there doing talks and pitches. Bianca's going to be there in her author capacity. All right, so we are going to Calgary When Words Collide 2026. It is August 14th to 16th, downtown Calgary at the Hyatt Regency. You guys can get your tickets now. Go to their website. It's through the Alexandra Writers center, but just Google When Words Collide and we're gonna be there. So we can't wait to see you guys in person and come to our live taping. It will be our official. Our first official live taping because we didn actually record Bianca's event for the show. Yeah, I'm excited.
- [01:59]
B
True. Yeah.
- [02:00]
A
Yeah. So anyway, get your tickets now because we can't wait.
- [02:03]
B
It'll be my first time in Calgary. I've never been to Calgary, so I'm really excited. My best friend is from Calgary, so.
- [02:11]
A
Nice. Well, we. We're gonna have to get recommendations for her. I have been to a writers conference in Edmonton, but I haven't been to a writers conference in Calgary, so we're very excited to see our west coast. West coast Friends.
- [02:22]
B
And we've also been to Surrey in British Columbia.
- [02:27]
A
Yes. So.
- [02:28]
B
Yes. No, not together.
- [02:29]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [02:30]
B
But like we've both been there. But then I don't think Alberta. I don't think we've ever done Alberta. Have we done Alberta? I don't think so.
- [02:36]
A
Yeah. Awesome. It's gonna be great. So we'll see you guys there August 13th, 16th in Calgary. So get those, get those tickets and we will see you guys in a few short months. And okay, so what's going on this week? It's a bit of a quieter week if you are at your desk this week because it's London Book Fair. Yeah. And cece and I were just chatting about the last time we went to London Book Fair. So cece, what were you. What were you saying about showing up on your phone?
- [03:00]
B
Oh, so my phone. Because it's March, it reminds me of the first and only book London Book Fair I've ever attended. And so it reminds me like of the pictures I took of the conference center, of the books, of my selfies, like dorky selfies. There's one of my shoes. Not entirely sure why I took a picture of my shoes, to be honest. I think it's because there was a sign like the right center this way. And so it was like me walking. I'm not sure, I don't know what my thought process.
- [03:25]
A
It was an artistic vision. There was an artistic vision.
- [03:28]
B
These pictures were not shared. But I love it when my phone reminds me of good memories. It's kind of a double edged sword though, right? Cause sometimes we're reminded of things that we reminded of. But I guess that makes it an interesting story.
- [03:38]
A
So.
- [03:38]
B
Yeah, I don't know, the London Book Fair again. I've only ever been once, but it is so amazing, so magical. I have heard rumblings of what people are talking about this year and of course, unsurprisingly, politics. And you know, how it affects the book market, how prices of oil goes up, what happens to supply chains, all that state of the world, you know, the dumpster fire, pirate ship. We're all in. Buzzy books. Buzzy books always are. Always a fun topic of conversation. Gossip. There's always gossip. Things like the new CEO, right, of Simon and Schuster was announced. So of course, you know, the fair is abuzz with news about that. How to revive nonfiction. People are talking about that too. I've heard that, like the fact that nonfiction is declining and you know, what do we do about that? Like, how can we make other forms of media boost nonfiction sales? As opposed to there's a theory that it's taking away from nonfiction sales like podcasts and stuff. And then of course, AI, because how could people not talk about AI? But anyway, I'm not there. But I love hearing updates from people who are my agent. Slack channel is abuzz with, with fun news and that's just great.
- [04:44]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's a great week. If you're not there, it's a great week to have a bit of a quiet week so you can catch up on some things, which is lovely. So London Book Fair, it used to be in April and then it moved to March, and when it moved to March, my son's birthday was in March. And so it's been the week of my son's birthday for the past however many years. So I haven't been to London Book Fair in a while. But next year it is moving a week and so I'm going to go next year because it is not my son's birthday week. So I don't want to miss my, my son's birthday. My, my baby that was born the week that was declared a pandemic is years old, which is so wild. He's, you know, my boys are getting big and anyway, so I'm going to do London next year. We celebrated birthday this week. It's been a quiet ish work week, which is great, getting some reading done, getting kind of planning out the rest of my submissions for the kind of spring season and yeah, just lots of, lots of stuff like that. There was also, because we can't go a week now without mentioning AI, and Cece already mentioned it once, but there was some AI news and publishers lunch that I wrote down to mention to you guys. So if you've been following any of this AI news and there's obviously so many different threads of this that you can kind of pull on, but one of the things is around whether something that is created by AI can be copyrighted. And so there was a big case. And so on Monday, the Supreme Court refused to hear a case that challenged whether AI created art could be copyrighted. Computer scientist Stephen Thaler sought to copyright a piece of art that he created in 2018 with an AI program that he built. The copyright office declined his request for copyright in 2022, noting that AI created work is not protected. Thaler brought the course the case to court. Now the lower court's decision stands, holding that copyright only applies to human created art, which is very important. You know, obviously we try to scare you guys away from using your Writing, in conversation, in concert with AI at all. And this is just such an important reason that copyright only applies to human created art. And I can't say that enough times.
- [06:48]
B
Yeah, 100%. I mean, not only is it going to create, let's face it, really boring art, it will not be protected. So it's kind of a lose, lose situation using those things. Maybe we just don't use them and call it a day and move forward. Yeah, I look forward to not having to talk about AI for a week.
- [07:05]
A
Really. Again, it's a challenge. I don't know if we're going to. I don't know if we're going to win that challenge.
- [07:11]
B
You know, it's bad when I'm being optimistic and Carly's being pessimistic, you know? You know, the world is bad when we have reversed our roles.
- [07:19]
A
That's true. Okay, so I sent cece a DM because I saw something that was definitely something we had to chat about. So over the course of the week, CeCe and I kind of build out what we're going to talk about on this show, just literally based on, obviously, what's happening in the news and things we see on social media and conversations that we're having in the industry. So I saw an Instagram story from a journalist, this journalist, whose name is John H. Maher or Mayer. I'm not exactly sure how we pronounce the last name. M A H E R. Used to work, I believe it was for Publishers Weekly. Now is a journalist for the New York Times Book Review. So this is a. Something he posted in his stories. These are not his words, but he took a Reddit screenshot and posted it in his stories because it's going to be a lot of reading, so just bear with me here. But I think it speaks to something that I think is an underground current of a lot of conversations that we have in various capacities. So trigger warning, I guess, to anybody who feels like publishing is this hunky dory, happy business all the time. Even though I am an optimist, there is such an undercurrent of so many other feelings from other people and other roles about this industry. And so this is from the Reddit thread, just publishing. So the publishing. Reddit thread. So R slash, publishing. And the journalist kind of like blacked out the person's name. I don't know if you can still go to Reddit and find the original post, but I'm gonna read it. It's. It's long, so bear with me here. And Cece just cut me off if you want to chime in on anything. Or we can just wait till the end, as we would with a query letter. And. And here we go. R Publishing. I literally can't do this anymore. I'm an editor whose name you've probably heard, and I've been in publishing for more than a decade, and I pretend to be cheery at every event that I have to attend, but the truth is that I want to quit this loathsome career every day. I should have gone into law or medicine. What kept me going was the belief that rising into an editorial role would give me the chance to champion books with real craft books written to mean something, as opposed to the ghost written dreck, celebrity nonsense, and slightly upscale material we'll call literary fiction because its author has an MFA that will claim we publish, quote, so we can afford to print real books, end quote. But that has become all we care about. It hasn't happened. I've spent years making compromises in an attempt to build a political capital so that I can acquire something worth believing in, and thus far I have nothing to show for it. Here I am in an airport while the world counts down to World War iii, and if I had to be honest, I have not published one book worth caring about. I'm constantly forced to justify decisions in financial terms even though no one can be certain about how a book will perform. I've seen influencers given massive advances while real authors are forced to serialize on substack to 79 followers. I hate this. My whole life I've been in an industry that does such a disservice to writers and readers that it has no moral authority, no real reason to exist, where reput launderers for people who can afford publicists and who boarded with literary agents. I can't believe I ever thought this life could be anything else. And it has 97, I think, like upvotes. It has like the up arrow and 41 comments, 36 shares. Again, I haven't gone to Reddit to kind of track this post down. Obviously we never know who this person is or you know, this is just somebody's thoughts. Sometimes on Reddit there is, and I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist. Sometimes there's people feel like maybe people on Reddit aren't saying the truth, but this feels very heartfelt. Cece, what reaction did you have to this? When I sent you this in dm,
- [10:46]
B
it read to me similar to okay, I'm going to backtrack. Do you know how Every once in a while, unfortunately, with more frequency than I would want, we hear about friends, colleagues, publishing professionals who are quitting the business. Not just moving, not moving from like one press to another, but like leaving publishing. It read really similar to vulnerable and I guess difficult messages I've exchanged with friends who have, have chosen that career path. Not everyone who leaves publishing leaves with sentiments such as this. But, but it's happened enough times that I, I am confident to say there is a pattern. Yeah, it was. I read that and I wanted, I wanted to cry, I wanted to give this person a hug. I wanted to ask so many questions, like I've just so many follow up questions. I think there's so many interesting threads to it, like the idea of political capital, the idea of, you know, you kind of playing the game and paying your dues, which is something that exists in many corporate structures. It makes me, and I mean this with, with the most respect possible, please know this, but it makes me very grateful to be an agent because yes, we exist within a corporate structure as well. But you know, our jobs are so entrepreneurial. We get to, we get to pivot, we get to represent what we love. We get to champion books that we truly and dearly care about. And, and yeah, and I've known about my privilege for a long time, but at the same time it's also like, whoa. Yeah, it wasn't surprising, which says so much, but it, but it did leave an impression on me. When you, when you DM'd that to me, I was like, oh, wow. Yeah. And I'm glad that we're talking about it.
- [12:17]
A
Yeah. For me it was one of those things of like saying the quiet thing out loud. And in the pandemic, I think a lot of people, when they were feeling this way or people who were feeling this way left. Right. And so we saw mass exodus and then we saw a lot of new people joining publishing because then all of a sudden we could work remote. And that was great. And I think, you know, obviously the doors were open and so now I think it's that group of people who like, you know, maybe made it through the pandemic.
- [12:39]
B
Yeah.
- [12:40]
A
Working in the business or joined the industry in the pandemic or rose in their career during the pandemic. And now some dust is settling as it's returned to office as corporate mentality shift a little bit. Yeah. So I think we're in this like post pandemic resettling phase of people realizing once again how hard publishing is, how much it takes to move this Massive ship, you know, and I think I really related to cece what you said about, as agents, we do have this privilege where we can pivot faster. Because of the diversification of our lists and being entrepreneurial and being small businesses, we can pivot much faster. And the machine of publishing that, like, large. I just think of it as like a cruise ship or this oil tanker.
- [13:22]
B
Yeah.
- [13:22]
A
It's like moving that. It's like moving an oil tanker, you know, in the Strait of, you know, just. You just can't. Right. It just like bumps around and gets stuck.
- [13:31]
B
Correct.
- [13:31]
A
So, yeah, it's so hard.
- [13:33]
B
We're on speedboats. Yeah, we're on little speedboats, which is like, not as, I guess, powerful as an oil tanker, but, like, nimble. And you can have flexibility. And sometimes we ride the wave and it's amazing. And sometimes it's like, oh, God, there's an oil tanker next to me. Yeah, I'm having a lot of fun with this metaphor.
- [13:53]
A
I was gonna say, how long can we keep this going? Who are the authors?
- [13:56]
B
I'm imagining myself on a speedboat. See, I am not a boat person or a water person at all, but in my head, I can be. So for imagination.
- [14:05]
A
Yeah. Anyway, I feel like we're going to get some. Some DMS about this one or some YouTube comments about this and maybe some authors who didn't realize that editors felt this way. We are here to break it to you. If you did not know that editors there, and again, not all editors, that there are a subset of editors that feel this way. We are breaking the news to you. That is factual information essentially about how editors feel about their jobs. And it is hard. So I actually feel like this might be a good segue into the Bloomberg article, talking about, you know, the industry and business and how people feel about their business. So cece sent me this article, which a lot of you maybe saw. I think it's behind a paywall. Cece, do you want to give a. I mean, there's lots of things we could talk about. Do you want to just explain what the article's about?
- [14:47]
B
Sure. So the article is essentially. It's called Along Came an Influencer, How America's Best selling writer became Mr. Beast. Co authors. So it's about James Patterson and the fact that he is doubling down on collaborations, dabbling in multiple genres, including romantasy. And. I mean, I. First of all, I appreciate any publishing article, any article about publishing from a financial perspective. I always think it's very interesting. I. I'm interested in it. I Want to. I want to hear about it. But the thing that stood out the most to me is a part that reads on earnings calls. The corporate parents, meaning the publishers, brag about their biggest sellers, not their Pulitzer or Booker Prize winners. Success in modern publishing is defined as exactly the thing at which Patterson has excelled. Selling tons of copies. And this is why this stood out to me. What other industry, Tell me what other industry would. Bloomberg, if financial news outlet, a behemoth, a very respected name. When would they ever think to highlight the fact that sales is what is highlighted in an earnings call? When like, this is.
- [16:03]
A
This is.
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B
This is so normal. Like every earnings call on any industry, people are highlighting the sales. Awards can also be highlighted. But what, in what world would someone even write a sentence? Oh, it's not the awards that are highlighted, it is the sales. Of course it's the sales. This is a business. It's for profit business. It's capitalism. Did you think it was charity? Did you think it was academia? Did you think we were living in la la land with the unicorns and the ponies and the rainbows and the fairies and the. Whatever else is in unicorn land?
- [16:32]
A
Like, no, in our walls. I don't understand.
- [16:36]
B
I find it. I find it mind boggling that people would have to highlight this. Like James Patterson, however you feel about the man's books. Have I read a James Patterson book? I'm pretty sure I have. I don't remember which one, but I'm pretty sure I have. Maybe you like the man's books, maybe you don't. He is a success story. He is doing something in publishing that is very hard, which is disrupting. He's creating new earning streams, new business models. Oh, people look down on it. They go, he co writes with so and so, like, oh, he's just doing it for the money. Hi. Hello. I'm knocking on your door. Do you not want to do things for money? Like, is this not a business to you? I just don't under. I don't understand the attitude of looking down on people who are exploring various business models in publishing and clearly reaching readers. The reason why anyone writes is to be read. Okay, there might be a million other reasons, but the number one reason at the core of everything is to be read or else it's your journal. We've talked about this. If you're writing a book and you want to be in bookstores, it's because you want readers and the man has readers. The man reaches readers. Good job.
- [17:39]
A
Good job.
- [17:39]
B
Because he actually reaches readers. I'm Proud of him for doing that. I also think he's managed to do something which is amazing in publishing and to the best of my knowledge, not heard of until he did it, which is to scale. Like this model of working with collaborators he's scaling. If his readers like it, then why, like, why. Why is there an article in which the tone is clearly, oh my gosh, wow. Publishing is highlighting, say, like what? This is just very confusing to me. Like, I thought it was a little bananas. What did you think?
- [18:09]
A
Oh, so many things to talk about. You know, I still think even in business there is a romanticization of our industry. Right. This is, this was published by somebody who is an author, but obviously this had to be pitched to a business publication with a business editor to review this in order to publish it. Right? So, like, there's multiple lenses here to come at this. But there is. I just come back to this idea where there is still a romanticization of our industry. There is still the low brow versus highbrow brow business that everybody needs to unpack, even himself. Right. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of things here. So there's a quote that stood out to me that I said, you know, sums up the industry perfectly. One person who's worked with him and asked not to be identified to avoid professional repercussions, says he goes back and forth between dismissing literary writers as not for a popular audience and then wanting to be seen as a literary writer because he feels somewhat ghettoized as a pulp writer. So it's like even within this structure that is built, he still feels this desire potentially to want to be seen as a literary author and yet benefits from all the trappings of being a commercial author.
- [19:14]
B
I love what you said about the romanticization. Like, that's okay. But can I ask a question? Why does romanticizing something. Why is this in contradiction or in conflict with reaching readers? Because that's what sales means. Like, I don't think people get that. People think of sales and they think money, but really behind the money is people buying your book, reading your book, engaging with your book, talking about your book, word of mouth for your book. And why can't we. I, I totally agree that we romanticize publishing. Everyone does, but to a degree. Right, but, but why, why does romanticizing it, like, in order to romanticize it, why do you have to look down on numbers?
- [19:53]
A
Like, it's because it's anti capitalist. Yeah, but because, why is it.
- [19:57]
B
But why is it. Why is that the lenses that we see it through, anti capitalist as opposed to More readership. Like, why aren't we thinking, oh, my God, this dying art form, allegedly dying. Right. We've been saying it's been dying for decades. It's obviously not. But, like, reading. Reading is. Is going extinct. People love to say this. People are only watching tv. They're only on their phones. This man is making more people read. Like, why isn't that the angle? Why isn't the angle social justice. Justice is the wrong word. But, like, social reach, readership, reach.
- [20:25]
A
I don't know.
- [20:26]
B
Like, it's so weird to me. Like, why can't we romanticize something and be happy with. With reaching readers?
- [20:33]
A
I think sane people think that, but, like, again, we're in this capitalist infrastructure and that in order to admit that leisure is the goal, that art is the goal, then do you have to denounce capitalism?
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B
Why would we have to?
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A
That's what I'm saying. That's. I think that's kind of like, how this is positioned. It's kind of saying, like, through. If the ultimate goal is to be the leisure class, to go to galleries or, you know, appreciate art or be creators of art, that they're saying. They're arguing that it is in conflict because you could only have one or the other.
- [21:11]
B
Why is leisure in the middle of it? Because, like, the man works hard. Like, I guess my point is.
- [21:15]
A
I agree. Yes.
- [21:16]
B
Right.
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A
No.
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B
And I know, I know. Of course I know you do. I guess my question is, why is that? Because I agree with you. That's the lenses through which the world is seen. Like, I'm not saying that's Carly's lenses. I totally like, what you're saying is exactly how people see it. I'm wondering why, like, why has no one stopped to think, hey, guys, whatever we think of this, of the story or the business model, people are reading.
- [21:34]
A
Yay.
- [21:35]
B
Yay for critical thinking. Yay for empathy. Yay for reaching readers. Like, I want to see, but I
- [21:40]
A
think the lens is still villainizing his attachment to success. Yeah.
- [21:46]
B
And why. And if a man can't get away with this, what hope do other people have?
- [21:51]
A
Yeah.
- [21:51]
B
You know, like, this is totally. This is really bad. I think the people who are romanticizing publishing in this way are missing out, are missing out on actually looking at the world through the lenses of. Oh, my God, it's so cool that so many people are reading. If the man has. I don't even know what the sales numbers are. I don't have the article in front of me anymore. Like, 400 million sales or whatever it is. Like, yay. Yeah, that's a lot of people reading.
- [22:16]
A
Yeah. Okay, now I want to tie this back to that Reddit thread. Now I want to tie this back to the Reddit, because this is where these two worlds collide for me. Because a lot of people who get into working and publishing want to be the type of people that are championing the Pulitzer Prize winning authors, the authors that they feel are capital L literature. There's less people that get into publishing who want to create commercial publishing, and there still are. I mean, I pretty much only whatever wanted to work in commercial publishing. But that's why I think that Reddit thread is so interesting, like, when you compare it to this article, because it's suggesting still that, like, there can't be happiness in the middle. So many people find this so hard.
- [23:01]
B
It's also, it's also assigning a sense of superiority to one type of literature versus another, which is like, so come on, what is this, middle school? Why can't there be different types of literature for different readers? And they're all really valuable and really great. I'm not saying you have to like all of them equally, because that's just not realistic.
- [23:19]
A
But I think it's still icky, though, to want to want success. And even if for a man, it's icky to want success even at scale. I get what you're saying, like, how hard does it help for a woman to want that? Yeah.
- [23:31]
B
And you know, with the editor, like, I guess the difference there to me is, you know, if you're not excited about the books you're working on, then then I understand. Of course I understand, because I, I have had a job where I wasn't excited about my job.
- [23:45]
A
Yeah.
- [23:45]
B
Haven't had it for a while. I'm very grateful to now have a job that I'm excited about. But I know, I know that if you don't find your work to be meaningful, that can be really tough on the spirit. Right. But to, I guess to look down on someone who presumably enjoys his job and more importantly, readers enjoy his books.
- [24:03]
A
Yeah.
- [24:04]
B
I don't know, it just, it's. I guess it's so complex and I get that. I just, I just feel like people are missing out on an opportunity to be like, so many, so much bad news in our world. And if there's people reading, that's good news. Let's celebrate that.
- [24:18]
A
You know, there was a quote from the article where it says, for Patterson, the lack of highbrow appeal seems like both a point of pride and a Source of defensiveness. That's the thing that best selling authors do. He says. We get people coming into bookstores. Right. And so, like, there is a way, there is a way to have both, I think, but there is still this, the framing of this article is still like in that defensiveness, which is really interesting.
- [24:44]
B
Well, it's, it's the defensiveness that the author, who admittedly has sold very few copies, is bringing to the table. I also think there's something about the lenses of this author. Right. When he was saying, like, I'm an author too, and I've won awards, but I've only sold a tiny fraction, I'm like, I mean, thank you for disclosing your point of view, I guess. But also, maybe Patterson is defensive, maybe he's not.
- [25:05]
A
Also, it's a sheep projecting that the author is a sheep of the article.
- [25:09]
B
Oh, I like her more.
- [25:10]
A
Which is interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Which is interesting. Yeah. One of my favorite parts, one of my favorite parts of the article is when she shows, because there's this whole thing about how James Patterson worked in advertising and he cares very much about the look and design of his books and how, you know, he has a lot of opinions about it. She shows Patterson her book cover and I want to find the quote because it was, it was so good. So this is, this is the interaction between them. I fought for a very obscure cover, I explained as he peered at the phone. I wanted a book that would be like that, sort of like that nobody would buy. He deadpanned. So cool. There's an aesthetic, there's an argument. You mean with no title and all that? He asked, now seeming genuinely perplexed. There is a title, I said, you just can't read it unless you put your phone really close up to your face. I asked, suddenly a little insecure if he hated it. Yeah, he said, and then self corrected. I mean, what's your objective? If your objective is to be read, then you need to put stuff out there that people will like, like, oh my gosh, what an interaction. I just adore that. And I obviously had to then go look up her book because I wanted to see what the book title was. And it is really hard to see. The COVID of the book is Searches Selfhood in the Digital Age. Anyway, incredible interaction. It might be behind a paywall, but go check it out if you can. There's a couple other great quotes in there, but I find the framing of the article very interesting. Yeah, but I. Yeah. Anyway, we could go on and on.
- [26:35]
B
We don't have Time for all of it.
- [26:37]
A
No, we don't. We are going to throw to our sponsors. It is my 10th wedding anniversary this year and my husband and I are planning on what we want to do to celebrate. When we got married, two 20 somethings fresh out of grad school, just starting their careers, we did not want to invest in a big honeymoon. It felt kind of irresponsible when we wanted to buy a house and all those grown up things. Fast forward to 2026 and we are planning a wine tour in Italy. If you have travel coming up, then join me in using Rosetta Stone to learn some new local languages. There's something about spring that feels like a reset, fresh energy and that motivation to try something new and imagine arriving for your trip actually understanding the language. I'm talking about ordering confidently, connecting with locals and feeling immersed instead of just visiting. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted leader for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you naturally absorb the language without memorizing random vocabulary lists. You learn by connecting words, visuals and meaning in context. Plus, their true accent technology gives you real time feedback on your pronunciation so you sound more natural. Whether you have five minutes or an hour, you can access lessons from your desktop or the mobile app. Ready to start learning a new language this spring? Visit rosettastone.com today today to explore Rosetta Stone and choose the language that's right for you. Go to Rosetta Stone.com today now and begin your language learning journey.
- [27:53]
B
All right, we're coming back from our break. I would like to bring back the question I asked of Carly last week. Carly, if you could represent any author who is no longer with us, by that I mean has passed away, which author would you represent? And they are back. They've come back to life in this scenario. Right. You get to interact with them. It's not like a representing the estate situation. So, okay, who would you choose?
- [28:17]
A
Okay, I'm gonna admit that I struggled with this question. I'm glad you didn't put me on the spot last week because I would have been like, I would have said something dumb. And my answer might still not be what people expect. But I thought really hard about because I thought about like more recently passed authors who are still kind of contemporary. I thought about the classic, like 1800s authors. And then I actually was working on.
- [28:39]
B
I want to know if we're gonna say the same person. Hold on. I'm gonna write down on my post it my first.
- [28:43]
A
Okay, okay, okay. I'm gonna.
- [28:44]
B
Yeah, I don't know because what if we did?
- [28:46]
A
Okay.
- [28:46]
B
Right. Wait. I just want to make sure that I'm right.
- [28:48]
A
I have a feeling. I don't know. I have pretty strong feeling that we did, but I'm gonna write it down right now.
- [28:52]
B
No, no, because you're gonna say it first. So. So you write it down.
- [28:55]
A
Okay. Well, just for.
- [28:57]
B
Okay.
- [28:57]
A
You know, I wrote it down. Okay. I wrote it down. I'm gonna post it. Okay. Okay. So I was working on an Instagram reel this morning for one of my clients, which really made me think about inspiration and where inspiration for projects comes from. And so this is. I'm gonna get to my answer, but I'm gonna plug my author. So the book is Midsummer Nights by Lara Stokes. So her novel is inspired by Shakespeare's A Midsummer's Night's Dream, which immediately made me think that the author that I would need to bring back and represent is Shakespeare. And it's kind of a corny answer, but I'm gonna. I will do my whole. This is why.
- [29:34]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:35]
A
Name me an author that's been adapted more times for stage and screen and graphic novels and adults and, you know, and plays. Like, literally everything has been adapted so many times. So as an agent, I'm like, the amount of. Right. Sales I would get from that, living on for hundreds of years in every single, you know, different platform and, like, the right sales alone, I mean, translated into every language. So, anyway, so my answer is Shakespeare, because of the agent capacity to sell all the different subrights and the capacity to just, you know, connect with people and change people's lives for hundreds of years. So that's my answer. Shakespeare.
- [30:14]
B
Okay, well, that's not the same answer.
- [30:16]
A
Okay. I didn't think it was Tony.
- [30:19]
B
Toni Morrison.
- [30:20]
A
That's crazy.
- [30:22]
B
I was actually going between her and Isabel Allende. It's hard to choose. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go with Toni Morrison. Yeah, that would be my answer.
- [30:30]
A
It's hard. Beautiful. It was really hard. Question. I'm very forward, as you know, which we talked about. I'm very forward thinking. It's very hard for me to look back. I really struggle with that because as an agent, I'm always like, I'm selling into the future. So if I want to bring this author back, I don't want to recreate the past necessarily. So that's kind of what led me to where I landed with my answer. So that's why I chose Shakespeare.
- [30:50]
B
Love it. Love it. Love that answer. Thank you. Thank you for sharing.
- [30:55]
A
All right. We've been getting such good YouTube comments. So thank you, guys. It's a great place for you guys to drop us a note because I actually have been checking them every Wednesday morning before we record. So somebody had said. So this is imagining that we were the author because last. Last week we were talking about blurbs and I actually think, you know, you guys have had. I've seen some interesting back and forths about this, but. So the question on YouTube was essentially, what would we do as Cece and Carly if we were authors and we were asked to blurb something that we didn't like? So, cece, what is your answer to that?
- [31:26]
B
I mean, my knee jerk response when I first read this was like, no, I couldn't do it. Like, I'm just so bad at being happy when I'm not into something. Like, I. I'm like a child. Like, I need to like it. You know, I don't like boring things. I need to be. But I actually thought about it some more. I think it would depend on the reason why I didn't like it.
- [31:45]
A
Yeah.
- [31:45]
B
Do you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah. And I can definitely see myself if it were important, if the reason why I didn't like it is like this highly subjective thing and not any major objections I have to the work, and if it were a situation where, again, because of literary citizenship and just, you know, being a good, good colleague, I can see myself giving a blurb, that would still be honest, though. Like, what I would write would still be honest. I could write something like, you know, it's an exploration and then include the themes. That's not dishonest. It is an exploration of whatever it is. You know, like, I. I would be careful to still be honest with my wording, and I would just use my brain to, like, very cautiously say things that weren't untrue. But that also allowed me to get away with. Yeah, that's what I would do.
- [32:24]
A
Yeah. It's really tricky. I mean, one of the things what I advise clients about is not committing before you've read it. So it's just, you know, does this person have time? They'll try to get to it. Kind of keeping it vague, obviously. Yeah. But if it's somebody whose work you have liked in the past and you're like, sure, you know, it's. A lot of it depends on the framing of the conversation and trying not to make promises. If I genuinely didn't like something and I was an author, I would have my agent buffer the situation for me and just say that I didn't have time. That's. That's what I would do. That's what I would advise anybody. And this happens. You know, I'm not saying every time somebody says they don't have time. That's why. But it's like, I just don't think that authors should put their name on things that they don't actually want to support. And so I'm pretty much, do you
- [33:12]
B
have to like to want to support? Because that's the question at the end.
- [33:15]
A
There's lots of other ways to support. Right. There's like, share on social media, have somebody on the podcast.
- [33:20]
B
Yeah.
- [33:20]
A
You know, feature it in the newsletter, share on socials, give to a giveaway.
- [33:24]
B
You have to like a book to want to support it. Because I don't like. I don't have to. There are many reasons why I would want to support a book.
- [33:30]
A
Book.
- [33:30]
B
Even though I don't like. No, because again, this comes back to the root. Like, why did I not like it? That. That to me is the guiding light.
- [33:36]
A
Yeah. I think I have a hard time putting myself in the head of an author because I'm not. And so I'll always just kind of put my business hat on.
- [33:43]
B
Imagine if there is a blogging blurbs, though, Carly. Everyone's gonna be like, carly, can you please blur?
- [33:47]
A
I've actually given a blurb. I've actually given two blurbs, but for none.
- [33:52]
B
Now everyone ask Carly to blurb your book. Everyone. Do it. Do it.
- [33:56]
A
I blur I blurb Jane Friedman's book and I blurb Sarah Selecki's book. And both of them did kind of like crafty writing business books. So I am asking blurbs. Thank you very much.
- [34:05]
B
There you go. There you go. And now we know you loved them or else you wouldn't have blurbed them.
- [34:09]
A
Exactly, Exactly. We gotta. But yes, No, I understand the question for sure, but it's hard for me. Okay. And so let's talk about what's in the newsletter this week because, you know, we pivoted slightly because we have a new installment in the Tuesday newsletter called Meet yout Dream Agent. Every Tuesday, we're gonna publish a Q and A with a literary agent, which is gonna make it easier to find and fall in love with the one agent that's right for you. So tomorrow, which. Cause this episode comes out on Monday. So the Tuesday newsletter is going to be with Adria from KT Literary. She's gonna talk about common mistakes that authors make in their query letters. We also have Carrie Clare, author of Definitely Thriving, who has penned an excellent essay which reads like a love letter to D. For writers, dialogue is one of the most versatile tools we've got in our toolkit. Dialogue can do everything, and so it's especially tragic to let yours sit on the page doing absolutely nothing at all. Carrie includes tons of practical examples, including excerpts from her latest novel to highlight the many functions dialogue can serve, and so get ready to take lots of notes.
- [35:13]
B
We also have a really fun author video by two authors, Ali Frank and Asha Usman, co authors of Run for your Life, and they're discussing the challenges of writing humor. Writing humor is very hard. Writing humor, like, I mean, humor is the most, most difficult and most accessible way to show off your intelligence. So I'm looking forward to that one. Also, Kristin Katchock, author of An Impossibility of Crows, wrote an essay, four tips to tricking yourself into being a better writer. I very much like this because it involves therapy and self deception. So I like it. I'm excited.
- [35:49]
A
All right. We also have number one New York Times best selling Ava Reid, author of In Morata, marketed as a gorgeously gruesome gothic romance. Wow. Who gives us food for thought in terms of being a reading omnivore. I'm really an omnivore when it comes to reading. I bounce around from genres I love everything from doorstopper epic fantasies to YA Dystopian to contemporary fanfic, contemporary litfic. I think reading so widely vastly improves my own writing, and it's something I would recommend to any aspiring author. And lastly, there is still time to up for the next beta reader matchup, which Bianca matches people together, obviously, to do beta reading. I'm sure you can read between the lines there. And so if you're looking for a beta reader right now, there is still time to sign up. So go to the substack for the shit about writing tomorrow and you'll find all the links that you need, all the good stuff. All right, so I think the last thing we have to talk about, we've bounced around a lot of topics today, but I think it kind of dovetails with a lot of the things we always talk about on the show, which is money and writing. There was a New York magazine article about the salaries of 60 New Yorkers. I think they do this kind of frequently, but this one kind of went viral because there were a couple different ones, obviously that got people's attention, but one of the ones that got people's attention was the ghostwriter. There was a ghostwriter in there, and I think There was also an author, too, so let's talk about those ones. So let's start with the ghostwriter. So this is first of all self reported, so obviously I don't think this is fact checked in any capacity, but. So this ghostwriter reported an income of $164,768. They received 107,000 from Substack Book Proposals and other projects, 55,000 from Ghostwriting Books, and 2,000 from Personal Writing. And there's a little write up down below. It said, because I had a slow year, I did a lot of moonlighting on smaller projects. Sub stacks for famous people, book proposals. I had 11 different clients, wrote five proposals, finished two books, and started another book at the end of the year. I get paid a flat fee per book. There's a wide range. A lot of factors in a deal. Some people like to have their name on the COVID but sometimes you get paid less that way. I started ghosting five years ago. I called my agent and said, I want to be a full time writer. What does that mean? My agent said, can you write a book in three months? So there you have it, an example of a ghostwriter salary. Cece, what did you think about that one?
- [38:11]
B
It didn't surprise me. I. When I saw 107,000 from Substack, at first my brain went, wait, is it their own substack? Where they maybe teach people how to ghostwrite? But then, you know, if you read the write up, it does say that it's ghost writing substacks for famous people. It doesn't surprise me, honestly. Like, I. I've worked with clients who have used ghostwriters, and they are expensive. And you know what I get? But they're expensive. It's a very difficult job.
- [38:35]
A
Mm.
- [38:36]
B
It is super, super, super. Like, okay, pet peeve. I was once in a car with friends. Five friends total. My friends do not work in publishing. They do not. They do not. I was just mentioning, you know. Oh, my client. Yeah, Ghostwriter. Oh. I mean, you know, it's expensive. Oh. How much? How much do they charge? Like, obviously it depends. But then I mentioned the amount. It's high amount. And my friend's like, oh, my gosh, I should do that. And it took every fiber of my being to not be like, that was a very dumb comment for such a smart person, because they are very smart. I want to make this clear. But that was a very dumb comment because it is so hard to be a ghostwriter. Like, so hard. So hard. Okay. You are interpreting thoughts into seductive storytelling. Like it is so hard. Okay. Anyway, whatever. So a lot of people think they can write a book.
- [39:25]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [39:26]
B
And ghost writing a book. Oh, yeah. I'll just write it for you.
- [39:28]
A
Well, it's somebody else's idea. I just have to write it. No.
- [39:31]
B
Yeah.
- [39:32]
A
So hard to get the voice right. Especially. Especially for nonfiction, when you have to nail that voice. So hard.
- [39:38]
B
Yeah, it's whatever. Anyway, so I am not surprised by the amount. Yeah. Kind of really admire the Hustle, honestly.
- [39:46]
A
And.
- [39:47]
B
Yeah, I'm just not surprised at all. What were your thoughts on the ghostwriter?
- [39:51]
A
I feel like I just been chiming in all along. Okay. My thoughts on the ghostwriter. One was a few things. I don't know why I was kind of like, huh. When they said they're writing the substacks for famous people, I'm like, duh. Did I actually think that celebrities or influencers were writing their own sub stacks? Clearly, they're making bank because if they have huge followings, they just get to charge, you know, substack rates and then just pay somebody to, you know, just to write the posts. I don't know. Anyway, I just. I'm. I'm starting to realize what a grift that is, and that's kind of blowing my mind a little bit. But I'm also like, why didn't I think, you know, the grifting would be there anyway? So that's just me being, I don't know, I guess a little naive about that, but makes absolutely perfect sense. I mean, somebody can ghost write anything
- [40:32]
B
to see Carly be naive. I did it. I lived long enough to see it happen.
- [40:37]
A
Shocking.
- [40:38]
B
It's actually really shocking.
- [40:39]
A
So I actually want to come back to something else again. We can't go a week without talking about AI. So everybody says, you know, AI is going to kill writing. AI is going to kill writing. This is a perfect, perfect example why AI is not going to kill writing. Because things still need to get written. Content writers, copywriters, ghostwriters. Like these newsletters don't write themselves. Of course AI could write this, but are they going to do it? Well, no. And you would still need an editor, you know, if you didn't. If the celebrity didn't hire a ghostwriter to write this upstack. This is just a classic example of why we still need writers in the age of AI Even more so because we don't want to read AI Slop. Right. So anyway, that. That's me on my high horse about that. Yeah.
- [41:20]
B
And then we also have the author. We had an Author salary. So the title is author. With one New York Times bestseller and their annual salary reported was 49,000. 30,000 came from a book advance. Made me feel kind of weird that it was such a round number from a book advance because wouldn't you have to deduct the agent commission or whatever?
- [41:37]
A
But yeah, it's all self reported, so
- [41:39]
B
it's like, yeah, 14,000 from teaching two retreats. So great job with those retreats. And 5,000 from narrating their own audiobook because of course authors should be paid when they narrate their own audiobook and the write up reads. I'm trying to manifest more abundance, but I'm really feeling the income streams have dwindled. I have over 800,000 Instagram followers. Before, if I wanted to do a brand partnership on social media, 10,000 was an easy get. Now it's like 500. I pretty much live from a bucket of savings.
- [42:07]
A
Now.
- [42:07]
B
I have no idea how brand partnerships work on social media. I will admit to this ignorance. I don't know what people make. I know. I'm sure it varies wildly. Like again, I have zero information on brand partnerships. I've never obviously done one because why would I? Or been around someone who did one. But it does surprise me that the author has such a massive following. Like this is 800,000 followers, right. And because they're narrating their own audiobook and they have such a following, I imagine that they write nonfiction. And then my question goes to. Wait, but then like most nonfiction, I mean, unless you write memoir, like so many nonfiction authors, like, they're, they're, they're an expert and they have that income stream and author. Do you know what I'm saying? But this person is just, just, just author sounds horrible. I don't mean the just in a, you know, bad way, but yeah, yeah,
- [42:57]
A
I'm thinking, you know, obviously advances are paid out in multiple parts. I'm assuming this is one of the advanced chunks. Right? Because you wouldn't get all three.
- [43:05]
B
Right?
- [43:06]
A
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. But why, why are they only the
- [43:10]
B
author and not like therapist and author or. Do you know what I'm saying?
- [43:13]
A
Yeah.
- [43:14]
B
If they write nonfiction, they must have another income stream or else what's their, what's their expectation?
- [43:19]
A
And especially why would you read your own audiobook? It's like way more common to read your own audiobook in.
- [43:24]
B
Exactly. Unless it's memoir. I guess it could be memoir, but like a memoir with 800,000 followers, usually that's.
- [43:30]
A
And teaching two retreats. Yeah. If you had 800,000 followers. Anyway, we're really getting into the grill here. But, like, if you had 800,000 followers and you, in my opinion, you only made 14,000 from teaching two retreats, you should be teaching more retreats.
- [43:45]
B
I mean, I guess. Although sometimes people do this because the retreat is a great way to keep their. Their brain going, but it's not what they're passionate about, you know, like, that's not.
- [43:55]
A
They love. And they've already published a book because they already have a New York Times bestseller. So, like, you know, book. This is just an example of how book income can be so weird, right? Because you could. They could have had a large advance and then spent it and then not got royalties because there was a large advance and never earned out. You could still be a New York Times bestselling author and not make royalties because of a large advance. Maybe they. Again, I'm totally speculating. I'm assuming they spent that money and so. Or they said, you know, I'm living from my bucket of savings, you know, so they presumably save some money from the first book. Or again, one of the segments of this.
- [44:27]
B
Maybe it's just one book, though, and the advance they're referring is like the. One of the installments that comes after publication. Yeah, it could.
- [44:35]
A
But why would they have that? The narrating. The own audiobook would have happened in the year that the book came out anyway.
- [44:41]
B
That's true.
- [44:42]
A
Hard to know. Hard to know from all of this information.
- [44:45]
B
But then it could be also the.
- [44:46]
A
On.
- [44:46]
B
On pub.
- [44:48]
A
Yeah, right. Yeah. And it could have been front loaded. Could have been front loaded.
- [44:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [44:54]
A
Hard to know. We're clearly trying to pass through something like, who.
- [44:58]
B
Who is this?
- [45:01]
A
We're so curious. All right, well, we bounced around a lot today, but I. I always feel like we had some themes come through. So thanks for hanging out with us for another episode of shooting the. And if you have any kind of comments, any questions, drop them in the YouTube channel and we'll check them before our next recording.
- [45:18]
B
Do it. Okay, bye, everybody.
- [45:21]
A
Bye.
- [45:23]
B
Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this
- [45:42]
A
podcast is not affiliated with the agency,
- [45:45]
B
and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her
- [45:49]
A
as a podcast co host and do
- [45:52]
B
not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.