Shooting the Shit About Memoirs That Sell and The Publicity Delusion

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Shooting the Shit About Memoirs That Sell and The Publicity Delusion"

Podcast: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Hosts: Carly Watters & CeCe Lyra
Date: March 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into two main themes: what makes memoirs sell (with a focus on the new memoir Strangers), and the changing reality of book publicity and media coverage in publishing. Carly and CeCe share their perspectives as experienced literary agents, offering behind-the-scenes stories on “putting out fires,” trends with AI-driven submissions, and engaged listener questions. As always, the discussion is candid, supportive, and peppered with humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Industry Trends: Audiobooks and Reader Habits

(04:10–07:22)

• Stats Game: Carly quizzes CeCe on audiobook and print book purchasing habits among readers.
  • Only 17% (in Canada) of people buy an audiobook of a book they’ve already read in print.
  • Reported (but less substantiated) stat: 64% of audiobook listeners may then buy the physical book.

Quote:
"If you're telling me some of these sales are double dipping... then that means readership is going down. And I cannot live in a world where I believe that because I will be depressed."
—CeCe (07:04)

Insight:
The “double dipping” phenomenon—where the same reader buys multiple formats—raises concerns about real readership numbers and publishing metrics.

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2. Behind the Scenes: “Putting Out Fires” as a Literary Agent

(12:24–19:21)

• Cover Issues:
  • Covers are a recurring “fire” and are emotionally charged; agents help manage feedback and negotiations to support the author while maintaining publisher relationships.
• Production Timelines & Expectations:
  • Agents monitor that meetings and deliverables are on schedule, advocating for authors when timeline hiccups arise.
• Leverage in Dealings:
  • Preventing accidental loss of bargaining power, especially when authors communicate directly with editors about future projects.
• Contractual Smarts:
  • Agents make sure clients receive all contracted benefits (e.g., a publisher paying for a special service), emphasizing the importance of cc’ing the agent on all communications.

Notable Quote:
"I have never in my life thought to myself, 'Oh, this person ccing me too much in emails.' Never, never, never."
—CeCe (18:48)

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3. Memoir Chat: What Makes a Memoir Like Strangers Stand Out?

(19:48–26:29)

• Strangers as Case Study:
  • Classic “rich person divorce memoir,” but notable for its narrative voice, use of symbolic interludes (like the osprey nest), and themes of generational wealth and financial feminism.
  • Writing about COVID is usually tricky, but Strangers manages to pull it off in a way that adds to the story.
  • Discussion about market “comps” and the inevitability of this memoir being used as a model.

Quote:
"The best memoirs do is that they break every rule and then they break out."
—Carly (21:18)

• Audiobooks vs Print:
  • CeCe reflects on how listening to the memoir (especially when narrated by the author) can change her connection with the protagonist, particularly in stories where the internal arc is subtle/passive.

Quote:
"For you, for me, this book is going to be digested with my ears and not with my eyes."
—CeCe (25:16)

• Themes:
  • Financial independence, “bad motherhood” trope, and how these elements make the memoir relatable and resonant for a wide group of women.

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4. Listener Questions: Publicity & Traditional Media Coverage

(28:08–38:15)

• Does traditional media coverage still matter?
  • Both agents agree: traditional coverage has less impact on direct sales than before but remains powerful for validation and author branding.
  • Strategic, long-term benefit: accumulation of coverage helps mid-career authors build credibility and eventually supports breakout success.
  • Emotional benefit: Being featured remains deeply meaningful for authors’ sense of legitimacy.

Quote:
"There's a psychological element to 'I was featured in that magazine.' That level of validation for an author can be very important... Our emotions matter, and we have to stop pretending like it doesn't."
—CeCe (30:23)

• Advice to authors:
  • Know your own "why" for seeking media coverage. Is it for sales, career momentum, or personal validation?

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5. Publishing Gossip & New Book Deals

(38:16–40:39)

• The Outbox announcement: Literary agent as main character in an upcoming novel—sparking discussion on industry self-reflection and relatability.

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6. The AI Submission Crisis

(40:39–47:46)

• Article from The Bookseller highlights:

  • Agents are noticing more queries, with a marked decrease in quality and "flattening" of language—a suspected effect of AI.
  • Visual (illustrator) submissions are also being affected.
  • Leading UK agencies are formalizing anti-AI statements in their guidelines: submissions must be 100% author-generated.

• Key Concerns:

  • Aspiring writers may undermine their growth/self-trust by using AI as a crutch.
  • AI can never replace authentic creative development or genuine feedback.
  • Trend indicates a "loneliness epidemic"—writers seeking AI's validation due to lack of community.

Quote:
"If you're being efficient, you're doing it wrong. Sorry, honey. This is not the industry for efficiency... Pick a different industry."
—CeCe (43:18)

• Bottom Line:
  • AI-generated submissions may result in missed opportunities, with agencies becoming stricter and more suspicious.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Emoji Usage:
"You don't second guess yourself. People use emojis when they're worried their tone doesn't match the words... I don't think you've ever second guessed yourself a day in your life."
—CeCe to Carly, about self-trust (11:12)

On Writer Goals & Validation:
"The why is often to make money part of the why. But it's also to feel loved, to feel validated... It's not egotistical. It's not about their ego. It's about the creation and the work and the beautiful, beautiful thing they put out in the world."
—CeCe (36:51)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Audiobook Stats Game: 04:10–07:22
• Agent “Fires” and Industry Examples: 12:24–19:21
• Memoir Discussion – Strangers: 19:48–26:29
• Publicity & Author Validation: 28:08–38:15
• Book Deal Gossip – The Outbox: 38:16–40:39
• AI Submission Discussion: 40:39–47:46

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Listener Engagement & Tone

The hosts encourage comments, YouTube engagement, and feedback on all topics—particularly around habits (emoji use!), industry trends, and books.

Throughout, the banter is accessible and warm, making complex industry realities relatable for emerging writers. Both hosts are clear: transparency, self-trust, and community matter now more than ever for writers navigating a rapidly changing landscape.

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End of Content Summary

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. Hello, cece. How are you?

[B]

Busy and well, how are you? How was your weekend? How's your week been so far?

[A]

It's been good. This weekend was kind of nice and quiet at home, which was good. I went skiing with the kids. I've had a bunch of hockey. I've been on. I feel like I've been on the go a lot this year. I was in New York, which you guys knew about, and then I went to see the Backstreet Boys in Las Vegas right after that. So that was really fun. With my friends. We did five couples. So, like, five guys, five women. The five women went to the Backstreet Boys. The five guys went golfing. Anyway, it was great, but this was a very nice, quiet weekend at home. I cleaned up my closet, which I was very proud of myself about. I love cleaning out what I'm gonna drop off at the consignment store. And, yeah, it was good. How about you?

[B]

I'm such a nerd. I love cleaning out closets. It's like. It brings me joy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I love it. I love organizing. I don't like cleaning, but I love organizing. I was in New York, and. Let me see. I worked on slides for my class. Wait, when does this air? So if this airs on Monday, it airs on March 2nd. That. That's. So I'm speaking to Cece in the future today. CC, you are starting your class on March 2nd. So I worked on slides, and as usual, the slides are out of control. Obviously not something that I'm surprised about writing. Interiority is a big enough subject. Now I'm doing interiority and psychological acuity, and you just have so much to cover. And the slides are, like, the funnest part for me. Well, teaching might be the finest part, but I love creating slides because I'm always challenging nonfiction clients. Like, you have to distill everything, like, your whole message into, like, one counterintuitive, interesting, intriguing, not just informative, but intriguing message. And slides are that like, a micro version of that, obviously. Right. With every different point you're making. So worked on the slides. I have a bit going on with myself about how long this course is going to be. It's like, five days. So if I do, I mean, it can't like, there's no way I'll. Any of the days will be less than three hours. So we're talking a very long course. So apologies in advance to everyone who signed up. Truly, I apologize. I apologize. So many of you say, don't apologize. I love it. But for those of you who don't like me rambling for hours and hours, probably just don't sign up.

[A]

You know, one time somebody. I forget what the context was. Maybe it was when you and I did used to do courses together, and they were like, does cece have, like, a firm end time, or does Cece just, like, go until Cece's done teaching and talking? Like, Cece just goes until she's done teaching and talking. Cece does not have a firm end time.

[B]

I hate firm end times. Like, I. I can do it, as you know, because we do. Like, Bianca has a firm end time for shooting this, not shooting the ship. Sorry, books with hooks. Like, when I teach at conferences and stuff, I will respect that, but I just can't get into the same level of depth. Like, this is why I love doing it myself. My own thing as an entrepreneur. Like, I want the total freedom. It's kind of like a fantasy for me. I get to talk for as long as I want. No one's gonna tell me to shut up. That's amazing.

[A]

I've gotten to the point where I'm, like, tired of my own talking. I never listen to the show back. I never, like, watch the YouTube. Like, I could go a long time without hearing myself talk for a while. But I do like chatting with you, which is why we do our shooting the shit. So we got some.

[B]

Yeah, no, I don't. I don't listen back to anything. No, it's just the actual live talking I like. But, yeah, you were gonna ask me a question. I'm so.

[A]

Yeah, so you asked me, like, a stats question. So let me find my stats question. Okay, so I kind of have two. So I started doing some research for a good question, and I found one stat where I was like, I don't know if I believe this stat. It said it was a Pew research study, and I'm like, okay. Anyway, so I'm going to ask you the real one where I was like, okay, I found the actual stats.

[B]

Wait, can I guess? Is it how many men think they could land a plane on an emergency? No, I love that stat. It's so funny. I knew. I knew it would be a book one. I just wanted to plug in the ridiculous high percentage of men who think they can land a plane on an emergency. You guys are delusional.

[A]

We travel too much to think about those things. Thank you very much. Okay, so my stats are, all my two stats are around audiobooks. So the one where I was like, okay, I could actually find, as you can tell, I'm very particular about making sure it is a factual stat, not just some AI generated made up bs. Okay, so what do you think the stat is for people who go back and listen to an audiobook that they've already read the pre print book of? What percentage?

[B]

So in this situation, people read the print book and then they listen to

[A]

the audio, they go buy the audio later.

[B]

So is it by the audio or listen to the audio listen?

[A]

It wasn't by the stat that I. It's a Canadian stat, so I'm assuming it is by not listen.

[B]

Okay, okay, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say. Okay, hold on. So I'm reading a print book. I am tired, I'm obviously tired because everyone's tired. And I go, oh, I really like this print book. But I don't, I don't want to do it in print. So I'm going to go get the audio. Like that's what I think is behind this. Because the other way around, I get it, you want the book for your bookshelf. But if it's print first, that's the other side.

[A]

That's the other, that's the other side.

[B]

I'm going to assume a lot of people are tired and a lot of people do this. I'm going to say 60%.

[A]

Okay, so Booknet Canada. So Booknet is basically Canada's version of BookScan. So BookNet said 17% of people go back and listen to the audiobook because they read the print book. But I think that's because purchase like I think 17%.

[B]

A lot of people are tired.

[A]

I think 17% of people must go back and buy the book because I think a lot of people maybe get it from the library later. I would assume.

[B]

That's why I asked buy or listen. Right. Because if you have to spend money, then it's lower. But if it's just like, if it's like a library situation, then, then I think it would be higher.

[A]

Okay, now I have a stat for the reverse, which this is the stat where I'm like, it said it was a Pew Research study, but I couldn't actually find the Pew Research study because we were recording and I had to come online. What percentage of audiobook buyers end up buying the physical book after they listen to it

[B]

that I don't think is very high because it's about buying something for your bookshelf. So I do think that people do that. But again, it's spending money. The first question wasn't about spending. I mean, I didn't think it was about spending money. 20%.

[A]

64.

[B]

So basically, I got them both wrong. Inverted.

[A]

Completely inverted. So anyway, first one was from booknet. The second one's apparently from Pew, but I haven't been able to source that study. But anyway, let me know if you guys have comments on YouTube. What do you think? Have you either. Which have you done? Have you bought the audio and then got the print book? Or are you somebody who buys the print and then goes. Buys the audio, or are you just somebody who sticks to your format? I'd love to know.

[B]

So I don't believe this stat. I do believe it. Like, if our listeners say they do it, I believe it because we're talk. We're talking to readers, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Fair, fair, fair. Here's. Here's the thing. We have multiple. We've talked about this on the show. We've seen a very clear line of. Readership stays the same, meaning people who buy books stay the same.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But then more books come out onto the market. If you're telling me that some of these sales are double dipping, meaning one person buying the same two books twice, then that means readership is going down. And I cannot live in a world where I believe that because I will be depressed.

[A]

Therefore, I do believe that, which is why I think these stats are true.

[B]

I don't want to be depressed. No. Okay.

[A]

No.

[B]

I'm vetoing believing that. You're not allowed to believe it.

[A]

All right, let's flip back. So speaking of YouTube, we had a question on YouTube. Well, first there was a comment that I loved on YouTube that I wanted to keep.

[B]

Before we do that, there's another thing I want to ask.

[A]

See, this is the problem. If we're keeping this recording. The problem is Carly thinks that she's in the driver's seat of this. And then cece reminds me that this is a team effort.

[B]

No, you can be the driver. I love it when you're the driver. But there's a. Look, there's an agenda. I. I put it there. There's a fun question I want to ask. So context. I was. I'm a part of the membership committee of the aala, which is the association of American Literary Agents. Love being a part of the Membership community. So much fun. If any agents are listening to the show, you should join the aala if you haven't yet. There's so many fun resources. I literally am saying this because I believe it. I get no incentive to say this. It's like, volunteer, nobody gets paid. Anyway, point is, I was at the membership meeting and there's this really cool icebreaker that an agent shared, which I loved, and it is, what are your most used emojis? So what are your top three most used emojis? So Carly and I will share mine too.

[A]

Like, okay, for text messages.

[B]

Not for posting on Instagram, for text messages. Private texts with friends and family.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And by text message, I mean like anything from Instagram DMs to I can

[A]

see because they're like the ones that are in the block that I always go to. Right. I'm grabbing my phone.

[B]

So I don't know if your phone shows recent or if it shows most used because they are different things.

[A]

Okay, mine's recent, but I think it

[B]

should be the same. But you can also just use your own common sense. Like, what do you think are your three most used emojis?

[A]

Okay, so I feel like this is a sneaky question to out myself as an elder millennial, first of all, so.

[B]

Oh, because of the smiling.

[A]

Crying is what I usually. What I usually use on Instagram for comments when I. I can't always, you know, write everybody a huge love letter back in the comments. So I'll usually always try to acknowledge somebody's comment with. I do the clapping hands. Clap, clap, clap. And then. Or I'll do the thumbs up hand. So that's what I, I use. That's my go to. For Instagram.

[B]

No, but I'm asking people, you know, no, I'm asking about, like, text. Okay, yeah, like text. This is why I said text, because I don't want it to be like what we do, public facing. I want to be like your private life. Like, text to me, text to Mike, text. You know, text to the people in your life.

[A]

What would I use for my emoji? I'm going to like my friend chats here. Let's see. Maybe I'm not a big emoji user. I have to like, scroll through here.

[B]

Actually, you're not a big emoji user, right? Because they didn't look at our chat.

[A]

I have some prayer hands. I have. What else? I do the. Maybe I'm not a. I think I might be in a bit of an anomaly. I don't know if I'M a huge. I don't know if I'm a huge. You know, what I try to do is when I travel, I'll be like palm tree or if I'm in New York, you know, Big Apple. So I don't know, I think I'm kind of, like, relatively balanced. I don't know. Maybe I'm not a good person to ask this question to. What are yours?

[B]

Interesting. Okay, so mine are the upside down smiley face.

[A]

That's a good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like the satire face, smiley face. So clearly I'm very sarcastic in my. In my personal text. But also, also the champagne. I'm always being like, celebrating, you know, So I do have a chat with my closest friends where we just celebrate wins. Like, it's a specific celebrate wins chat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then if I could sneak in a fourth, also prayer hands. Because again, we're also, like, manifesting things. But yeah, I. This is personal life emoji. If I were to look at the emojis I use on Instagram. Yeah, more then it's the same thing you said. Like, I'm sometimes trying to validate people who DM me, but I don't have time to write. So I'll share like a heart or, you know, a smiley face with hearts. Like, I'll like, this is just me saying, hey, I got your message. Thank you for your message, but I don't have time to respond to like 100 messages. But, yeah, I just feel like it's very revealing what people's most used emojis are.

[A]

I don't know what it says about me. That I don't. I don't really use them as much, maybe.

[B]

No, I can tell you what it says about you. Do you want me to tell you? You don't second guess yourself. People use emojis when they're worried. Their tone doesn't match the words. And so they put. Yeah, they go like, hey, I don't mean this in a harsh way. So I'll put a little smiley face. You are someone who. I don't think you've ever second guessed yourself a day in your life. If you have, please write a memoir about it because we'd all be curious. So you're like, I don't need to add the emoji. I'm Carly.

[A]

Yeah, that's probably true. I'm like, okay, well, take it or leave it. Yeah, okay. Well, that was a fun one in the, in the YouTube comments. Let us know what you got. What are your three emojis that you guys Use pop them in the YouTube channel chat. It's getting a little bit more chatty in our YouTube chat. I checked them out just so I can see what you guys are chatting about. So, so thank you.

[B]

I'm gonna start checking them out and responding too because I like that idea. I like the idea of having like the YouTube as a space. Yeah. Fun.

[A]

Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's nice. Thanks guys for hanging out there. Okay, so going back to YouTube, we somebody had a question follow up. But first I just wanted to shout out someone who said it's at Deadringer Prods said also just throwing this out into the ring. The new rant segment Carly is talking about should be called you don't know shit, which is a great.

[B]

Yeah, you dead ringer person. Don't know your handle because I already forgot you, genius. Love it.

[A]

You don't know shit. So that should be our little rant. Yeah. So we need to practice our rants. Okay. Same person had another follow up question about something. So we often talk on the POD about agents and how like, you know, there's fires to put out. Now that I've read this question, I'm like, obviously that's a very vague thing for us to say. Fire is being put out. What does that even mean? So this person said, what things do you have to frequently prevent by being cc'd into an email chain, you make it seem like there are frequent fires being put out behind the scenes that authors don't know know about. And I'm really just curious. So, CeCe, do you want to talk about some examples of fires? We call them fires, but, you know, do you want to give them some examples?

[B]

I mean, absolutely. I, I, I do appreciate the question because I get it. That being said, if you were to ask authors as well, not just agents, I'm sure they would also give you a list because authors do know about these fires. Not someone who hasn't had a deal yet, but like authors in the know, 100%, they know it. Again, I have to be careful because I don't want to get specific with the fire. So I'm going to talk about like the, the neighborhood that the fire is in because I don't want to reveal identifying details about client stuff. But here's one example. Cover issues. There are a lot of issues with covers. So if you're working on a nonfiction project, for example, and the COVID is being shared, are covers that again, cannot get specific. But it's happened multiple times. This cover just doesn't work like, I'm sorry, the person who, who proposed these covers missed. Missed a. The point with. With the book. And so by being cc'd, I could make sure my client was like, hey, how do you feel about it? First thing, I'm not going to tell you that I don't think the COVID is good. Before you tell me what you think, I always want to hear my client's opinions first. But I can, like, check in with my client, strategize about how to approach it in a way that is professional, yet at the same time valuing the relationship. Right. Like, it is very important in this business to strike a tone that is incredibly firm because you do have to be firm. But also, hey, sometimes the editor, like, the editor who is the person who's getting all that fire, like, they mean really, really well. And they actually need multiple editors have said this. They need the agent and the author to be like, no. So that they can then take that email and do something about it. So, you know, editors are on our side. So anyway, that's one example. Covers.

[A]

Covers is a big one. There's. It's so emotional. It's a marketing tool, and yet there's so many feelings around it. So covers is top of the list on for mine as well. The next one I have is. Is just timelines. You know, there's so many things where authors don't know necessarily what a schedule looks like and what it means to be on time or behind. Like, obviously they're given production schedules, but things move. And I'll notice, like, if I haven't got a notification for a marketing and publicity meeting within a certain range of pub, the author might be wondering, like, why have we had our meeting yet? And I'll be like, oh, somebody dropped the ball here. Somebody hasn't scheduled this meeting. Da, da, da, da, da. And I'll step in and be like, you know, why haven't we scheduled this meeting? You know, so it's anything related to timelines, where in my experience, I know when things should be happening and if they're not, I can just like, slip in and just keep the machine kind of chugging along. Just timelines in general, Schedules in general is a big one.

[B]

Yeah. And also, like, that is a great one, but it's still in timeline. I've had a situation where editor emails client. Here's the specific pass. Can you please get, you know, can you please send your notes back by Monday? This was a Friday. And no, like, first of all, that was not on the schedule. It was not like the author was expecting that on the Friday, but also like, no, what you are asking this person to do requires more than two days. So because I was cc'd again, I always check in with my client first. Maybe my client's like, I can do it fine. Yeah, but that is something that's really important. Like, sometimes publishers have really unreasonable expectations of authors because I know it comes from a good place. Many times they are stretched thin. There was tardiness in their own schedule. And so they're like, hey, so we're not late overall, let's just ask the author to just be faster when it comes to this specific leg of the project. It's the whole hurry up and wait line that we're always using in publishing. So, yeah, I get to again, go to the editor and say, so what is your final, final deadline? Because as you know, my author wants to be thorough and the scope of what you're asking her to do is quite significant. And she has a life. She is busy with kids at home.

[A]

That's not zero business days, too. Like, if ask for, like you on a Friday, ask for something on a Friday, that is zero business days.

[B]

Yeah, maybe it's essentially like genie.

[A]

Genie.

[B]

Genie magic. Yeah, yeah, that, that's. That's something that happens.

[A]

Okay, next one on my list is whenever something is going to give away leverage. So one of the main tools that agents have is leverage, and it can be used in multiple different ways. For example, you know, if we want to submit option material at a really specific time, then I want to make sure that, like, we have our pitch package ready to go. And I still pitch option material complet solid. Like, I don't just passively submit option material. So, for example, if a client is just like casually chatting with an editor about their next idea, that's fine. But if they then go all to the next steps with something like that, as the agent, I'm like, put the brakes on that. Let's like, let me step in. Let me formally go through the option material. So it's just these little things where maybe the editor didn't ask that in a way that was trying to be nefarious or try to reduce the leverage that we had. But anytime something gets in the way of me having leverage on behalf of my author, that's something where it's not a fire. But I'm always trying to be ahead of those things.

[B]

Yeah, there's also another situation I'm thinking of this one major crisis was averted. This is a contract where and this is not typical. The publisher had to pay for a specific thing. I'm not going to say what the thing was. And the author didn't realize that by the time the thing came to be, she either forgot when she read the contract or maybe read the contract, I do not know. But she forgot. So she emails the editor, hey, I've hired this thing, or I'm going to hire this thing. And these are my plans. And the question wasn't about money. The question was about something else. And I was not cc'd love my client, but forgot. Forgot to CC me. And then the publisher just responds like, hey, this is great. This is our feedback. But not saying, hey, we have to pay for this. Yeah, again, maybe good faith. Maybe they just didn't realize their contract said that because it was an exception. This was a difficult thing to include in a contract. And by. Thank you, universe, like, thank you, universe, my author texted me with a silly question about this thing. And I'm like, but you know they have to pay for that, right? Once you are ready to talk about it, just be sure. And she's like, oh, I already talked about it. I sent an email. I'm like, where is said email? Where is said email, author? And my author's like, I didn't want to bug you. And I'm like, there's nothing. Please understand this. I have never in my life thought to myself, oh, this person ccing me too much in emails. Never, never, never. You are my client. If you. And of course, if you're comfortable, it is your decision. CC me. Do it. So. So, yeah, so this, in this case, like, she was gonna lose money, essentially, you know, she's gonna make an investment that she didn't have to make because contractually speaking, she didn't have to.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's a great example. Common example. Not common, but like a great example of we keep the wheels on the bus. That's our job. You know, that's a. That's a great example. Okay, I think we. We've covered enough examples there, and those are all great examples. That was a great little question. So thank you for that. Okay, next I wanted to talk about. Okay, so we haven't talked about books we've read lately. I want to have you read. There's a memoir that came out called Strangers. Have you read Strangers?

[B]

I have not. I read the sample and I can share thoughts on why I did not keep reading.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yet. There is a yet situation.

[A]

Okay, but.

[B]

Yeah, but I. I'm really excited to

[A]

hear what you think Okay. I loved it. It was one of those things. So I got the sample as well. I do this all the time. I get tons of, like, just Kindle samples, and I'm always just trying to dip into as many things as I can.

[B]

And whatever hooks you, you buy.

[A]

I'll keep going. Yeah, so I definitely got that one. I was totally taken with it. It's a classic rich person divorce memoir. Classic. Like, if you want to sum it up, that's what it is. But it really did. I think it really did hook me. I think the writing was great. We wanted to see what happened with her. There was, I think, an attempt to really elevate it because there was. I don't know if you're. You're at this part, but there's kind of interstitials throughout that talk about the osprey nest. There's, like, a bird's nest that was on her property, and it's kind of symbolism for what's going on in her life. And so I like the kind of scientific interstitials with the osprey and the migration and everything like that. So that kind of scientific elevating, that kind of mirroring symbolism. I liked that. It was. Yeah, I. I don't know. I think. I think it struck a really good balance because there are so many, like, quote, unquote, like, rich people behaving badly stories out there, whether it's fiction or nonfiction. This one is nonfiction, but it's also told in this way that is also just very humble and very real. It's also told through Covid, which we talked about before, how writing a book about COVID can be really challenging. And it kind of just broke a lot of the rules. And I think that's one of the. That's the thing that the best memoirs do, is that they break every rule and then they break out. And then we're going to get all these comm. To strangers about, like, my memoirs, like, strangers, and we're going to be like, is it really.

[B]

Wait, what rules did it break?

[A]

I don't know if rule, like, rules is the right thing to say. What rules did it break? I think it just on paper, if you saw that pitch, a divorce memoir set during COVID Is it something that would be like, she is a really

[B]

standing, but she is a, like, very. I don't think, faint, but she is a personality.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So there's famous parents. Yes, yes.

[B]

The lineage, storied family and connections. And so that. That does change things, right?

[A]

I think so.

[B]

I'm not saying the book was sold because of that, but, like, if you mentioned, like, getting a pitch from. From someone who's an unknown person versus someone who's like, yes, yes, exactly.

[A]

I guess I'm trying to say, like, not maybe not what rules were broken, but what elevates that amongst all of the other things that we see, I guess. Right. So it would be the family lineage, you know, having a storied family history that goes back many generations, generational wealth, you know, that's something that is very polarizing. Right. Because it's. It's very. It helps insulate them in this story quite a bit. But you still are very sympathetic to her, I think. Also, I don't want to ruin the whole story for you or anybody that hasn't read it yet, but I posted on my Instagram story or my Instagram grid today about two books that I had read. So one was Strangers and the other one was how to Be a Rich Old Lady. And it was just funny how these two, like, how these two things dovetailed really well, because essentially this woman in Strangers is going to lose all of her generational wealth because of this divorce. And it just kind of gets into how women don't necessarily always set themselves up for financial success throughout their lives. And so I really liked that theme, the financial theme. And if anybody follows the Financial Diet, they are a YouTube channel and Instagram channel. And I think Chelsea, the owner of Financial Diet, is doing a deep dive on strangers on her YouTube channel. And I think it's going to launch today. And so I really want to check that out to see what she thinks about that, like, financial feminism piece. Because I think that piece was really interesting to me in the story about how that was all going to go down.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah. So I checked out the sample the week it came out. I read it with my eyes. The sample. There's a reason why I'm saying this, and I don't know if this is what's going to happen, and I don't want you to tell me, but I got the sense that, you know, a huge part of her arc was going to be awakening to her being passive in her life. Because so much of the sample that I read is her saying, I deferred to my husband. And her feelings were quite passive. Like, her interiority was passive, not just her actions, because it's different actions and interiority. And so I immediately, when I read books like this, like, I know myself so much of reading a book is what you are bringing to it. You as the Reader, what moment you are, 100%, what moment you are in your life, what mental modules you have about the subject of the memoir. Like, for example, I do not have divorced parents, but if I did, I would probably approach that differently. Do you know what I'm saying? Every time you read a book, the themes, this topic, the subject, the arc that reflects on you and how you feel about the book has so much to do with who you are as a person. I'm saying all this to say the whole passive interiority thing. I know myself, like I know myself. If I read that with my eyes, I would not connect with that protagonist in the same way as if I read it with my ears. Because this is a very specific reason, because she is reading the audiobook. So I looked it up immediately. I was like, yeah, who? Who is narrating this thing if it's her? Because her voice is going to do the work interpreting what her interiority is not interpreting. And so this is one of those situations where I'm not saying audiobooks or books are better or worse. I would never say that that's such a simplistic, like small minded thing. The no such thing is better. But for you, for me, this book is going to be digested with my ears and not with my eyes. Because that is the kind of reader that I am about this kind of story. And I know myself and so I'm very excited to listen to it. I have not read it with my ears yet because I am doing another book in audio and I'm not finished yet. But then it's right next up on my tbr, so I'll let you know how it goes.

[A]

Okay, yeah, let's chat about it. And obviously I got a couple messages on Instagram about it and Obviously in the YouTube comments, let us know if you guys have read it, it what you liked about it. I just think it's gonna be one of those things that we're gonna see a million comps about it just because of the nature of the story and a woman in midlife and her experiences. And another thing I want to plug is. So I was talking to a film agent about this actually, because she called me on Monday and we were both like, what did you read on the weekend? We're both like strangers. And she was talking about another really interesting theme, which is the bad motherhood theme, because the book also talks about her having to raise the kids essentially, you know, after the divorce, and how she felt ousted as a bad mom. Like, you know, is. Is putting your kids through divorce making you a bad mom, which is a theme through many of my books, including my client E.J. dixon's book One Bad Mother. So anyway, I thought there's just a lot of really good themes in that book. And anyway, we can keep talking about it but once you finish it we can talk about it some more. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. And with that, we are going to throw to our sponsors. Is anyone else running out of places to store their books? I did a big organizational and closet cleanout this weekend and I'm so glad I got a new bookshelf from Wayfair to stack all my books and make them look pretty, make your home work better for you and fall in love with it all over again with new items from Wayfair that give you real solutions to your home needs. Whether your aesthetic is mid century modern, contemporary or eclectic, Wayfair makes it easy to find what fits your style. I love how easy it was to narrow down exactly what I needed for my living room. Size restrictions and price point. And using their filters and reviews. I personally love contemporary and modern furniture that still has an old world feel. My new bookshelf looks and functions perfectly in my house, making my space feel so much more organized. From furniture to decor to outdoor essentials and organizational solutions. You can upgrade your space with quality pieces that work within your budget. Find furniture, decor and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F-A-I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home all right everybody, welcome back. We got a really fun DM from a journalist who follows both CeCe and I. So shout out to them. They didn't ask not to be named, but I guess, you know we could, we can keep them anonymous and we will read the question. So the journalist said, I'm obviously biased, but I'm curious, what do agents think regarding traditional media coverage these days? Does it still matter? Does it quote, move the needle, end quote for their authors? Do agents encourage their authors to take seek traditional media coverage? Slash publicity? Why slash? Why not? As the traditional media landscape shrinks, does that coverage become more or less important? Which I think was a great question and I know there's a lot of pub professionals that follow us. So I would also love to know what you guys think. So you know, send us a DM or comment on the YouTube channel because I would like to know what everybody thinks on this topic. I know publicist Kathleen Schmidt often writes in her substack about this topic. And so I. I honestly have a lot of feelings about this topic. And my comments on this change probably every couple of years because the landscape changes so fast. Cece, do you want to start with your overarching thoughts on this one?

[B]

Sure, yeah, I'm happy to. It's a great question, and I definitely appreciate this person asking. As a general rule, as an aside, we'll adopt the following policy. If you don't say you don't want to be named, we'll assume you don't want to be named. So if anyone is sending us a dm, this is. This does not count for comments that are public because then your name's there. But if you send us a DM and you. You want your name to be read, let us know explicitly, please, because we want to respect privacy. Right. But we also want to give credit. So anyway, just. Just a general thing that we can decide on. So. Okay, my thoughts on this. We operate as literary agents, as publishing professionals in a deeply human business. Our business is deeply, deeply, deeply personal. It is about personal relationships. What we bring to the table as publishing professionals has to do with that human element. And I bring this up in connection with the question of does traditional media move the needle? Does traditional media still have a space when it comes to promoting and selling books? I bring that up because once upon a time, the role of traditional media, the primary role is making sure that your book, book reached as many eyeballs as possible. In the same way that traditional TV shows, like for example, Once Upon a Time, if you wanted to know the news in the evening, yeah. In the morning you read your paper, right? But in the evening, you had to tune into one of X shows. X was a number and the number was low, right? Once upon a time, if you wanted to know what was happening in the world, you had to turn on that like one of three, one of four TV shows. Now that's not the case. Now, we're always plugged in. We don't all learn about the news at 7pm at night or whatever time it used to be in the same way that this used to be the case with journalism when it comes to just current events and politics. It was also true about books. If you wanted to know what books were hot, you needed to go to certain media coverage. And it used to be that one placement in the New York Times, a review in the New York Times, or one best of in a certain magazine talking about the big ones, especially that used to be make such a big difference when it comes to reaching large numbers of people, however, that's changed. We no longer live in that world, so that that primary purpose no longer exists, because it is very, very obvious that traditional media coverage doesn't bring in the same number of eyeballs and therefore does not translate to the same number of sales. But as I mentioned in the beginning of my rant, we are deeply human, Deeply, deeply human business. That's all about relationships. And one of the things traditional media does, which I think is very special, very special, and I'm thankful to traditional media for, is that there's a psychological element to. I was featured on that magazine. I was featured on that paper. I was. I went on that TV show. And that. That level of validation for an author can be very important. And people shouldn't discount psychological advantages and psychological benefits because we are human beings. We're not AI. AI doesn't care about the psychological benefit. You know, AI is fine. But we humans care. There is something to be said about the credibility, fair or not, the perceived credibility, the perceived legitimacy that being on these traditional media platforms brings to an author. And I think that's really valuable because I work with authors and I know that, you know, their author hearts, they care about this sort of thing. Even our podcast, I remember we were once featured on. I think it was Cosmopolitan's best podcast of the years. It was a couple years ago. We didn't get more viewers because of that. We really didn't. There was no moving the needle. But I loved it. I'm so proud of it. I mention it all the time. I'm excited about it. And of course, it's different from writing a book, because a book is a much more, you know, impressive and deep endeavor, for sure. I'm like, I'm not equating the two. I'm just comparing. But it matters. Like, how we feel matters. Our emotions matter. And we have to stop pretending like it doesn't, because to pretend like it doesn't is to equate us with AI, which I definitely don't want to, but, yeah, I think there's definitely a space for that. I just think that what people need to recalibrate in their minds, and this happens all the time, is I was once at a lunch, and it was two agents and two acquiring editors. I was one of the agents. We're talking about a book, and one of the husbands of one of the acquiring editors shows up, sits down, joins our conversation. And we're talking about leaked sales. And this person's reader, this husband is a reader. And we were talking about a book that didn't do well. And the husband was like, wait, but that book was everywhere. Wait, but that book was everywhere. We hear this all the time. That book was everywhere. What do you mean? It only sold 600 copies? That book was everywhere. It does lead to confusion. And that's the negative side of, wait, if my book was everywhere and it didn't sell, is it personal? Is it my book? I don't think it is, because again, the eyeballs and the conversion rate just isn't the same. But I think it's a great question, as you can see by all my documents.

[A]

Okay, so I have a lot of thoughts about this, as I've said, and I was kind of jotting them down as you were speaking, which were all great points. The first thing I always ask my clients about this is, what is your goal? And they will often sheepishly say, my goal is to be a bestseller. Right? Like that's what my goal is. I want to sell a lot of copies. Right? And then we think, okay, let's break this down. Do we think think so if you, by you wanting to increase the amount of marketing publicity in traditional media, do you think that that is actually going to make you a bestseller? Then we have to break down why that is probably not true. Because traditional media does not convert into actual sales. There are two things that traditional media does, legitimacy and brand building. And as you said, the legitimacy piece is very important. The brand building piece is very important, Especially in the age of AI and how much we in a general, as a culture distrust the media. It's very, very important that select outlets remain important to us because we want to be able to say, hey, my author was featured in xyz, quite a prominent newspaper or magazine or blog or channel, because that helps legitimize and rise above in the age of us kind of losing trust in traditional media and all the AI slop out there. So there is a very specific, solid purpose for all of this. The brand building piece is the piece that has been building for the last 15 years. And this is so important because it's not that maybe the sales didn't convert because of certain coverage for this book, but your next book is going to come around, and your next book is going to come around, your next book is going to come around, and all of this goodwill and this branding that you have built year on year on year, eventually, if you haven't broken out yet, you will break out because of that. That. And that is the reason. And that is the purpose to Continue to strive because you get to say, hey, you know, I was featured in this and featured in that and xyz. And then you start to just layer all of this legitimacy, all of this brand building, and that's how you kind of accelerate mid career. So there is a method to the madness, but it isn't specifically sales conversion.

[B]

I love that you mentioned that. It's a long game. I think that's a super important point. May I ask, when you ask your clients what their goals are and they say to be a bestseller, have you ever asked why?

[A]

No, Unless they offer it. Because I do think it's a deeply personal thing. I don't try to poke holes at their goals in that regard.

[B]

No, no, no. Not to poke holes, but to get to the root cause, because, well, I guess it's the same thing. Poke holes. And like, here's. Here's why I'm asking. I have learned from you, as you know, and I know that's a question you ask. And so I also ask it of my clients because you taught me. I started to ask why, because very few people will admit to this unless they feel safe around you and unless. Unless it's a private space, obviously. Right. And I always say, you don't have to tell me why, but, like, if you want to. I'm curious to know why.

[A]

But you should know why. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, you should know why for sure. But here's the thing. Human beings don't know their why half the time. I'm saying half.

[A]

That's a lie.

[B]

90% of the time, you know, we don't know our what. We don't want to examine. Examining takes time and brain space, and our brain doesn't like that. The why is often to make money part of the why. I'm not discounting that. Money is very important. It's been established. We love money. But it's also to feel loved, to feel validated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To have my work of many, many years, the heart and soul that I put into this rectangular, leafy thing, I want validation for that. I want recognition for that. I want to feel seen. I want to know that I matter. I want to know that my story matters. I want to know that my characters matter, matter. It's not egotistical. It's not about their ego. It's about the creation and the work and the beautiful, beautiful thing they put out in the world. And that is something that traditional media coverage can give to people. The validation and the love and the recognition. Fair or not, we feel special when an outlet like The New York Times features your book, you know, and so I just think that, you know, I don't think the journalists necessarily realize this, but a lot of the reason why coverage matters is deeply psychological.

[A]

No, I totally agree. I think it's about the validation. I think they're seeking something much deeper than what they actually even realize that they're seeking. So that was a fun conversation, and I think we're both on the same page about that. We're obviously sad that all the places are kind of shrinking and there's less places for all of this to happen. I think you guys remember me ranting about when the USA Today bestseller list closed down for a while, and I had a million rants about that, and I'm up, obviously, so glad that it's back. So all of these things matter in their own way. But as the author, this is a great moment to kind of pause the episode and write down your why, because those whys are really important.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Well, we still have more to cover today. I saw this deal in Publishers Marketplace that I wanted to just give a shout out to. So sometimes agents get. And I didn't get pitched this book, but agents get pitched these books sometimes where it's like a literary agent character. Anyway, I just wanted to read this deal that was announced. So Rachelle B. Weinstein has written a book called the Outbox, in which a literary agent's carefully compartmentalized life implodes when a glitch sends her brutally honest private draft emails to their intended recipients, forcing her to confront the messy feelings she's been hiding and to discover that vulnerability and authenticity might be the keys to the life and love she's been too afraid to lose. Which was sold to Pippa White at Lake Union Publishing to be published next year in 2027. Agent is Danielle Marshall at Jane Rustron Agency. Anyway, did you see that one, Cece? I always. Antennas always go up when there's a literary agent character.

[B]

I know. It's such a. Like, it's such an interesting. Like, I feel like literary agents, we have such an interesting life. So, yes, we would make for great characters. But at the same time, as agents ourselves. Is it too close to home? Like, is it. Is it going to be, like one of those good situations where I can't feel seen or bad?

[A]

It's hard to, like, impart editorial feedback based on my own life. You know, when you were reading which Emily Henry book had a literary agent character, was it book love?

[B]

I don't. I never know the titles of her Books, but I know exactly which one you're talking about. Yeah, it wasn't book lovers. Book lovers.

[A]

I want to say. Book lovers.

[B]

Yeah. I'm really bad with your titles.

[A]

It's not beach read. I think it's book lovers. Anyway, that one. Like, I couldn't not read that and not think about my own career and expectations. So anyway. But yeah, the. So writing brutally honest private draft emails and then having those. Could you imagine, Like, I don't type out any of my. Like, well, sometimes I type out my rants and delete it them, but that would be crazy. So shout out to Rochelle for that. Interesting premise there.

[B]

If. I mean, they're not drafts, because, again, I would not do that. I would not leave it up in the cloud. But if my private ramblings. Oh, boy, I would be in trouble

[A]

in a lot of ways. This is our ranting. So I guess it is out there in the universe. So I have way.

[B]

I have way darker rants in private.

[A]

Well, I am so glad that you don't air those out on our show. I'm sure you have them examined.

[B]

Or not. You have them, too. It's not just me.

[A]

All right, so the last thing I wanted to talk about today. So I have a subscription to the Bookseller. Cece, do you have a subscription to the Bookseller?

[B]

I don't.

[A]

Should I get one? Uk?

[B]

Do you love it?

[A]

I find it, yeah. I actually. I do read it. They do a really. They do really coverage of London Book Fair, which is coming up really soon. They'll do the dailies. So in the Bookseller, which is the British kind of trade publication, there was an article about AI. And I feel like from this point forward, I mean, I don't know if we've had an episode in the last six months that hasn't talked about AI, but this is going to be an article that talks about AI. So the name of the article, it came out February 3rd, written by Lauren Brown, article, literary agents urge writers to avoid AI as they see, quote, change in nature of submissions, end quote. So I pulled a couple quotes from the article for us to kind of focus on. But basically, the crux of the article is agents feel like, you know, whether they're using software or not, they feel like they can absolutely tell that there is an influx in submission. So a number of submissions are increasing, quality is going down, language is flattening. Also, another thing that was interesting in the article is that the Illustrator agents found that those pitches had changed dramatically because they said the artists are often very visual. And not as often, kind of tech technical with the writing. And so they've noticed the illustrator pitches to illustrator agencies have changed quite a bit. I thought that was interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, it was a great article. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. I mean, I'm curious, have you seen this too? Like, have you seen a larger number of queries, not saying it's AI or not, but like larger numbers?

[A]

I haven't checked. Have you checked?

[B]

Okay. Yeah, I have. I have. And the number has been going up.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I do think that part of it is AI. One of the most interesting angles about this article is when it said, what we're most concerned about is potentially good writers who don't trust themselves. And they are trusting this concept of AI that they're told repeatedly is so brilliant and transformative when some of them are missing the opportunity to discover that they themselves might be a great writer. Close quotes. To me, this was such a brilliant angle because one of the things you need to make it in this industry, I always say, talent for storytelling, talent for writing. And the third thing is the mindset. And one of the things you need in that mindset is self trust. Like author, there's. There's a reason why there's author in authority. Yes. Open to collaboration. Yes. Flexible, yes. Someone who can learn. But you need to know your vision, you need to trust your skills. And true confidence comes from competence. And competence comes from practicing. If you have not practiced writing, whether it's a query letter or a manuscript, you will not get good at it. Therefore, you. You will not get confident. Therefore you will be someone who's like, I don't trust myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think that so much of this is about wanting shortcuts. Now, I empathize with wanting shortcuts. I do. But it's not realistic. I say this all the time. If you're being efficient, you're doing it wrong. I am sorry, honey. This is not the industry for efficiency. Pick a different industry. It's not going to be this one. And so for me, I have seen a larger influx. What's sad, here's what's really sad to me. What's really sad is this happened a couple times already. I sometimes do, like, ask me any things. And I've had more than one person. This was not a one person situation. Ask me, hey, I use AI just to check that my story plot points are going well. Like, I create them. I just feed it into the AI and AI gives me feedback. And it just makes me feel like validated when I know that it's working. And then when it tells me it's not working, then I feel validated that I got the feedback and I'm like, this is a loneliness epidemic. What is actually happening is you're lonely. You have not found trusted beta readers, trusted critique partners, and most importantly, you have not trusted your own developed palette. And you're thinking that AI is going to essentially fix that or address that it's not going to happen. This is the same as someone not having a romantic relationship and being like, I'm lonely. I want to have romance in my life. I'm going to use AI to have Romans. I don't think that's a very good idea. You know, there's no substitute for your

[A]

connection for work content if we haven't been not safe for work content already.

[B]

No, but like, romantic can be like, like, like, like, like, you know, fairy tale romantic.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Just stop, stop, stop thinking that AI can do what humans can. Yeah, because it can't. Can we go a week? You wrote this. Can we go a week without talking about AI?

[A]

Like, from this point forward? I actually don't know if we could. I don't know if it's possible. I mean, I think this veers into a lot of, like, existential questions about the business. And I want to read a few more things from the article just so I can really help this hit home, because in some ways, the UK is ahead of us in some things, and sometimes North America is ahead of the US in some things. I think the UK is ahead of us a little bit in terms of agents kind of coming forth with some statements here because I don't think I've seen, you know, North American agents coming out with statements like these. So this is from, this is from the article. So this is different literary agents, submission policies and how kind of firm the wording is here. So it said. So you already talked about the flattening of the writing. So by using them, you may be missing an opportunity to secure representation by a reputable literary agency. Submissions to Green and Heaton must be the original work of the author. Submissions originated, written or edited using artificial intelligence AI will not be accepted. This includes the use of AI in your cover letter synopsis proposal as well as the manuscript. RCW's guidelines include the line, submissions must be the original work of the author, not generated or co written using artificial intelligence. Blake Friedman says, we do not accept submissions originated, written or edited by artificial intelligence. Felicity Bryan, associate says we do not accept submissions originated, written or edited by artificial intelligence technology. Grandma Christie's guidelines say, while we acknowledge that AI used judiciously can be used useful tool for research, we do not accept submissions originated, written or edited by AI. So I'm just, like, continuing to repeat myself, but I'm doing that on purpose because I want you guys to understand the stakes here. And not every agency is going to have software that is going to have a tell here, but we are going to be able to tell. I mean, there's. For so many reasons. And I think the thing that I worry about the most is writers who kind of the example that cece said where they're going in and they are using AI manipulation tools for things, and they're not going to know the line of where their writing ends and the AI begins because they're getting lost in the romanticization of this software. And that is what I think one of the huge, huge disadvantages are here of anybody using it. And that goes back to what CeCe said about, you know, writers need to trust themselves. I want to work with writers that have a very strong point of view on the world. I don't want to work with writers who have to pump their stuff into AI to. To figure out if they can validate whether this is a useful plot point. So I. I really do think, you know, this is a really important article, and I think it's behind the paywall. But I really wanted to bring this to light for us today.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, to anyone listening, we do empathize with the wanting, the validation and the wanting at the same time. It's possible to empathize with something and be critical of it, and you're. You're not putting yourself at an advantage by relying on AI to get that validation. It's fair to want it. Part of that validation is going to come from within, and part of it is going to come from other trusted human sources. But human being, the operative word in that sentence. I. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see if one of these days we'll stop talking about AI. I don't know. I don't think so.

[A]

I would love if we didn't have to talk about it every week, but, yeah, it's absolutely going to be something we'll probably have to talk about every week. But that's the end of this week's episode. Thanks for hanging out with us. We had lots of fun things to talk about, and as always, we'd love to know your thoughts in the comments on YouTube. So let us know what you think about this episode. Let us know your thoughts and we will see you guys again next week.

[B]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her

[A]

as a podcast co host and do

[B]

not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.