Shooting the Shit About What Agents Do All Day

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Shooting the Shit About What Agents Do All Day
Air Date: April 20, 2026
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra

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Overview

In this candid episode, literary agents Carly Watters (P.S. Literary) and CeCe Lyra (Wendy Sherman Associates) “shoot the shit” about the realities of daily life as literary agents. They discuss everything from organizing their schedules and managing overflowing inboxes to the nuances of relationships with editors, authors, and one another. The show also dives into the complexities of representing writers who've previously had agents, the code-switching required in their jobs, and current trends in the publishing industry—including a sales update for early 2026. As always, the conversation is honest, detailed, and accessible for writers at all stages.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Day-in-the-Life of a Literary Agent

Start ~09:44

• Fluidity and Triage:
  Carly opens up about the unpredictable rhythm of agenting:

  "It is a very fluid job...we have to react on an hourly basis. When a great query comes in, I might have to rearrange my afternoon to fit that in.” (09:49–10:27)

• Personal Routines:
  Both agents structure their weeks to balance meetings, reading, contract work, and personal time:

  • Carly time-blocks her week with Mondays for admin/organization, mid-week for calls and Zooms, Fridays for wrap-up.
    “I use a time-blocking system. My calendar, I’m looking at it right now, everything’s blocked…” (12:55)
  • CeCe’s “meeting weeks” in New York are filled with back-to-back breakfasts, lunches, and drinks with editors, organized by publishing house geography.
    “We do breakfast meetings, we do lunch meetings, even do drinks. There’s just a lot of walking around the city.” (15:26)

• Novelty & Urgency:
  CeCe loves that the job is never purely routine:

  “It’s both a job where you can have routine, that comforting familiarity…and then there’s the novelty aspect, the urgency, excitement, buzz.” (11:47)

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2. The Query Inbox & Manuscript Triage

Start ~08:06

• Overstuffed Inboxes:
  Carly mentions her query folder containing over 10,000 items (but not all are live queries); CeCe expresses the need for clarity and structure in working through submissions.

• Prioritization Pyramid:
  Carly’s triage system:

  1. Deals, auctions, contracts (most urgent)
  2. Correspondence with editors/clients
  3. Admin and reading
  4. Logging and lowest-priority tasks (12:55–15:18)

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3. The Human Side of Agenting: Meetings & Code-Switching

Start ~15:26 & 20:19

• Building Relationships:
  “One of the things that makes our job such a human job is that it’s all about knowing a person’s taste…hugely important for us because of relationships.” (16:14)

• In-person Meetings vs. Zoom:
  CeCe highlights the energy of in-person meetings, revealing personal dynamics and candid conversations:

  “There’s just something about an in-person meeting, the energy that gets transferred. Also, people feel a little more comfortable saying things they wouldn’t necessarily on Zoom.” (16:56–17:08)

  • The two agents riff on the “psychology” of meetings—from arrival times to what editors order for lunch to “teeth checks” pre-meeting. (22:20–23:39)

• Code-Switching and Boundaries:
  The job requires constant mental and emotional adjustment (code-switching) between clients, editors, assistants, legal documents, and social scenarios.
  “I’m constantly code-switching—talking to you, then my assistant, then working on a contract, then talking seriously with an editor.” (24:19)
  Both highlight the importance (and difficulty) of setting boundaries and protecting energy:
  “Learning when to say yes and when to say no is like an essential part of being an agent…No matter how much we give, it does not matter…There’s no positive reinforcement in this job.” (19:16, 19:23)

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4. Working with Authors Who’ve Had Previous Agents

Start ~30:32

• Listener Question: They address a “juicy” listener question: How do agents view authors who’ve had prior representation? When is it positive, neutral, or negative?

• It’s Complicated & Contextual:

  • It’s generally neutral, but nuanced:

    “The fact that someone else has liked your work doesn’t indicate to me that I will like it. I don’t see it as a positive. I also don’t see it as a negative…It needs to be discussed for practical reasons.” (32:18)

  • Practical red/yellow flags:

    • If the manuscript was previously on submission, agents need full transparency:
      “If you tell me…you want me to go back out on sub with this manuscript, and I don’t know how many people saw it…I will have to reject you.” (35:00)
    • It’s easiest when a prior agent retired or left the business.

  • How to Frame in Your Query:

    • Be neutral, professional, and transparent about prior submissions and representation.
    • Avoid unnecessary negativity about your previous agent.

  • What Agents Want to Know:

    • What worked in your last agent relationship? What didn’t?
      “I always ask point blank, what did you like about that agent relationship and what did you dislike?” (36:10)

  • Chemistry & Fit Matter Most:

    • “Not every book is for everyone, not every agent is for everyone. And that’s okay.” (38:23)
    • What agents really want: “The person who has the excitement and passion—that is the person you want representing your work.” (43:25)

• Notable Quotes:

  • CeCe: “You want someone who’s obsessed with your story…There’s energy radiating off them. That’s so important, and you can’t predict who that’ll be.” (43:25)
  • Carly: “If an agent loves your work…if I’m on board, I’ll get you out of [a sticky situation]. If they wanted to, they would.” (42:43)

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5. Market Update: U.S. Publishing Sales (Q1 2026)

Start ~44:04

• Book Sales Down Overall:
  • Print sales: Down 3.1% from Q1 2025
  • Only children’s books saw growth.
• Trends:
  • Only two adult nonfiction categories in growth: crafts/hobbies/games & religion
  • Children’s market: Deals down 18% despite sales being up—hosts critique the “blockbuster model” of publishing.
• Industry Takeaway:
  “Not the most uplifting of market updates...Children’s imprints closed, layoffs, but sales went up... come on, publishing, let’s get our [act] together!” (45:01)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Querying—And Harsh Realities:
  CeCe:

  “It’s not because we’re mean, it’s because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it’s harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities... It’s your job to make your opening pages irresistible.” (01:11–03:33)

• On Work-Life Boundaries:
  Carly:

  “If you don’t have boundaries around your time or you don’t know how to triage your workload... you feel like you’re on all the time.” (12:45)

• On Meetings with Editors:
  CeCe:

  “So much of our job is about knowing taste. Taste is both personal and shaped by trends—and you can only get a sense of that through real conversations, not just wish lists.” (16:14)

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Important Timestamps

• 09:44 — Day-in-the-life: Triage, time-blocking, daily obligations
• 12:55 — Carly’s triage pyramid for managing tasks
• 15:26 — CeCe on “meeting week” with NYC editors
• 20:19 — The psychology and social rituals of in-person industry meetings
• 24:19 — Code-switching and emotional labor in agenting
• 30:32 — Listener question: Representing writers previously agented
• 35:00 — What agents need to know about prior submissions
• 43:25 — Why passion trumps “dream agent” status
• 44:04 — U.S. book sales update: Q1 2026

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a frank, detailed look at a literary agent’s everyday reality—demystifying both the human and logistical sides of the job. The hosts don’t shy away from the tough parts—like managing time, setting boundaries, and navigating complex relationships—while also highlighting the joys of championing great books and making electrifying industry connections. Their deep dive into what it really means when a writer has had prior representation is particularly valuable, with actionable advice and permission to treat your career as a series of evolving relationships rather than a one-shot, make-or-break opportunity.

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This summary skips all advertisements and focuses exclusively on advice, industry discussion, and conversational moments relevant to writers and publishing professionals.

Transcript

[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Lira]

What's up everyone? This is cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled. And I wasn't surprised at all because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with hooks and of course in my submissions inbox. But at the same time, I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean, it's because we get dozens and dozens every day I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities, so. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible. To make agents crave it. To make agents want to read more. That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course. Starting it. How to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure that your story's beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the best one, the best place to start, and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things. When it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way. How to balance exposition and mystery. How to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory. And what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline.

Most of all, I'm going to show

you how to make readers want to turn to chapter two. Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepared to take lots of notes. We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques. Plus a super fun surprise that I can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.

[Carly Waters]

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with literary agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing guidelines, gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. Hi, everybody.

Welcome to another episode with Carly and CeCe. If you are watching us on YouTube, you can see that CeCe is not in her home office today.

CeCe, tell us where you are.

[Cece Lira]

I'm not in my home office. I am. Well, maybe you guys can see the background if you're on YouTube. I'm in New York. There's Central park behind me. I mean, kind of a tiny glimpse of Central park behind me, but it counts. And Carly and I are shooting this on a Monday, which is not our typical day. Usually we record on Wednesdays. And so our week has barely begun because it's 10am and so it'll be fun to chat up, chat next week to be like, how was the week? How about you, Carly? Where are you headed? I know you're traveling, right?

[Carly Waters]

I'm traveling this week. So today I'm home. It's Monday. Tomorrow I'm going to Toronto, have my Cleo Dang launch tomorrow night. But I'm just kind of just staying one night, and then I'll be back at my desk for Thursday, Friday.

So, you know, one of those weeks

kind of on the go, which is. Which is fun. But I kind of. I'm gonna throw this out there. I mean, I. I haven't prepared Cece for this. I actually kind of like recording on a Monday. I don't know, there's something like a nice way to start the week, just like. Yeah, talk.

Even though nothing's happened yet.

I don't know, like, they're pro. Right. Because when we record midweek, news has broken, you know, newsletters have been released. Like, there is stuff to talk about. So would we just be reflecting on the last week, I don't know, in our kind of Google Doc today of what we're going to talk about is a bit more reflective. So I don't know, I feel like the tone of the day of which we record actually affects the way we talk about it. Does that make sense?

[Cece Lira]

It does. It does. Because we're human beings, we're not robots, and so mood affects everything, you know, Like, I love that. I actually really like recording on Mondays, too. I think that, you know, the. The disadvantage is if we record on a Wednesday and the episode comes out on the following Monday, things are a bit more topical.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

But like, in terms of mood and, like, a great way to start the week, I quite like it.

[Carly Waters]

All right, well, we might have to play around with it, but often we do really try to stick to Wednesdays, but we, obviously, we travel and we have all. The reason that we're recording today is because of me, because I'm going to be in transit. So.

[Cece Lira]

So wait, let me ask. Are you going to be. Are you going to take the train or plane to try.

[Carly Waters]

I'm gonna fly.

[Cece Lira]

Fly. Okay.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. I found last time I took the train, I used to take the train all the time, which, you know, I'm very pro public transit of all kinds. Last time I took the train, I was in business class, and on the way back, somebody zoomed the entire time, like, in a business class. Like, it's not like business class is silent zone. You know, like, it's Like a silent car. It's kind of a silent. It's kind of assumed that business class is silent car. Or you do like a quick call

[Cece Lira]

that would drive me insane.

[Carly Waters]

Zoom. The entire. And the Internet on the. On the train. Last time I took VIA Rail wasn't fantastic. Like, it cuts out usually at a couple spots where you're kind of out in the middle of nowhere between Toronto and Ottawa. Anyway, so somebody zoomed the whole. And I was like, I had had enough. I was like, I can't do this. Yeah. So we have a couple things we wanted to chat about today. I wanted to do a bit of

a Day in the Life.

As I said, we don't have, you know, a lot of topical news yet

because it's Monday morning, but I wanted

to talk about kind of examples of days in the life for CeCe and I. As you guys who listen to the show know, often we're traveling or we're kind of in the middle of different things. So I wanted to give you guys a couple of different examples of days in the life. We have a message from a listener

that we want to run through with

you guys, which was. Gave us some. Some interesting fodder. And then we have some sales updates from the first quarter of 2026 in

terms of book sales.

But. But, yeah.

Where should we.

What do you feel like?

[Cece Lira]

Where should we start? I want to start asking a question because I just looked this up and I'm curious now.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

How many unread queries do you have in your query box?

[Carly Waters]

I'm going to tell you.

[Cece Lira]

Do you have a number? I want you to look. I just looked at mine.

[Carly Waters]

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Because I didn't. I didn't look at queries all weekend, and I'm like, huh. I wonder if a lot of them arrived over the weekend.

[Carly Waters]

Okay. I mean, yeah.

[Cece Lira]

In your box specifically. Right. Because I know there's like, agency box, too.

[Carly Waters]

The way that I have them organized.

I'm not sure if it is.

I mean, I can't.

I don't know if I could give a number.

Like, right now in My box is 10,044. I don't like. I don't go back and delete.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

And it doesn't.

[Cece Lira]

You don't have unread.

[Carly Waters]

Mine aren't. What's that?

[Cece Lira]

You don't have unread.

[Carly Waters]

Let me see.

[Cece Lira]

That would drive me crazy that you don't know. I need to know a number.

[Carly Waters]

I don't know.

Google.

Google's being.

[Cece Lira]

No, no. If it doesn't work for you it doesn't work.

[Carly Waters]

My Gmail's a bit weird.

So in the folder as a whole there's 10,044. Like 10. Okay, zero.

[Cece Lira]

Never mind this question then. This is going to depress people. Never mind. Guys, ignore my question. Guys, if you're listening, Carly does not actually have 10,000 queries that she has to get through today. Okay. I don't want anyone feeling depressed right now.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I do have a really great manuscript in my inbox. I'm going to drop everything and read because I got an email like late last week being like I have two offers.

I have, you know, give it, you know, another week to.

I'd only been sent the query and I read the pitch and I was like, ah, want to see this? So I have the manuscript on my Kindle right now and I've got a few contracts to work through. Today we'll talk about our day in the life. Actually this probably just segues into day in the life.

Should we just get into day in the life?

[Cece Lira]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

Okay.

[Cece Lira]

So I mean how many queries you have is a day in the life, right?

[Carly Waters]

So it is like it affects I think what the heart of this question is and why I thought it would be interesting to bring to shooting the shit is it is so fluid. Like we have to react on an hourly basis. Like it isn't. And I know a lot of jobs are like this where there is certain structure of weekly team calls or you know, certain things we know in advance. But I've. It is a very fluid job and I think maybe that's sometimes hard for people to understand where like when a great query comes into my inbox, I read, I read it for five minutes before we hop on this zoom. Like I know how I have to rearrange my afternoon to be able to fit in everything I need to do and like look at a chunk of this.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, 100%. 100%. Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. I'll just kind of start with my day in the life. So I, I went to the gym. You know, this isn't a, this isn't a vlog. So I haven't done a full video but went to the gym, worked out. I actually, you know, I ran into at the gym was my friend that I am doing the in conversation with in Ottawa for the Ottawa Writers Festival event. So plug for our event May 13th Ottawa Writers Festival panel and we're having two authors and my co host Mary Taggart and we're gonna talk about book clubs.

What makes a good book club pick?

What makes A good book club book and obviously have that great conversation. We're actually halfway sold out. So if anybody is thinking about buying a ticket, please go do that now.

[Cece Lira]

Man.

[Carly Waters]

We only have 60 spots and we've

[Cece Lira]

already sold you only. You only book things. When I have another thing, like, seriously, I'm mad now.

[Carly Waters]

You can't come

[Cece Lira]

Amazon Publishing summit that day in New York.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

So, yeah. So I'm gonna go to that.

[Carly Waters]

Boom.

[Cece Lira]

Not boot. To the summit or to the law. Boo. To the fact that there's a conflict.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. We can't do everything. I know.

[Cece Lira]

Yes.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. And. And that's. That's a great point that we. We can't do everything. Right. We can't go to every client's book launch and every single thing because we do get invited to tons of stuff. I get invited to different, like, award ceremonies that.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

We are kind of, I don't know, binational, I guess, in terms of. Both of us travel quite a bit across.

[Cece Lira]

And it's wonderful. We love the invitations. Please keep them coming. It's just not possible to do it all. I think what I like actually a lot about our jobs is that, yeah, it's both a job where you can have a routine, that familiarity, that really comforting familiarity that comes with doing something that you do often enjoy, that you do. Well, we get a lot of that. So, like, that part of my brain gets stimulated in a nice way. And then there's also the novelty aspect, the urgency, excitement, buzz. So whether you're like. Whether it's an auction that, you know, unexpectedly took off and you have more parties bidding than you thought you would have, or whether it's a manuscript that makes your way into your Kindle, and you're like, I have to read this in a week because there's another offer on the table, and I'm really excited about it. So I kind of like that. It's like, it just gives me both, you know, like, it really is a perfect, perfect job if you're the kind of person who enjoys having, like, a nice mix.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, totally. But I feel like that's where it gets out of control a little bit, because if you don't have kind of boundaries around your time or you don't know how to kind of triage your workload.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

You feel like you're on all the time. And that's one of the things that I feel like is just, like, a weak spot of this job. And it's just my personality is like, I want to be all things, all people, all the Time, right. Like when I sign a client, you know, I want to be there for you. I want to be able to get back to your emails quickly, I want to read your manuscripts quickly. Like that's part of the job and that eventual kind of learning how to triage things like what is actually an emergency, you know, what does need to be dealt with quickly. And I've talked about this before but I have like a, a triage pyramid, you know, and that really dictates a lot of my day which is, you know, what is the most important things. And just as a reminder what my kind of triage pyramid looks like is the top thing is as CC said, right. The deals, the auctions, the deal memos, like that type of thing, contracts. That's kind of the top of the list. Then it's really a lot of the second bucket is correspondence. It's a lot of like getting back to editors, getting back to clients. That piece. Then there's the next bucket is a kind of admin and reading and then the next bucket kind of at the bottom of the triage pile is. Yeah like a lot of the actual logging and admin stuff kind of under that bucket for me. So that's kind of what my day to day looks like. But I use a time blocking system. So my calendar, I'm looking at it right now, everything's blocked. So it's like, you know, I know what I'm doing for any given time period. I know how long things take me. I know if I'm trying to block a bunch of stuff into one moment, you know, I know I'm not gon actually going to get all that stuff done. So I have to kind of spread that out. Beginning of the week is a lot of organization so I tend to organize my calendar my week in. I kind of keep Mondays open generally for organizing my week. So I'm working on like larger projects that's you know, try not to do as many calls so that I can kind of get into things, organize my inbox for the day or the whole week. Sorry. And kind of understand what I'm going to be working on through for the week. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursdays is when I try to bank all of my calls, all of my zooms, like all that intensive stuff. And then Fridays I try not to do calls again. Things of course pop up and, and I will do them but I try to wrap everything up for the week that was on my to do list, get back to everybody and yeah, so you know, I'm in the middle of Working on two deal memos, two contracts, and they're kind of in various states of back and forth. I want to look at this manuscript. As I said that came in, that was exciting to me. I have this, I have a call with my assistant. I usually always talk to them for about an hour early in the week. Once a week I have a call about said deal memo, one of the deal memos that I'm working on with the editor.

And then I have some kind of agency calls.

So that's, that's my day. What does your day look like? And your day's gonna look very, very, very different from mine because you're in travel mode today.

[Cece Lira]

Well, yeah, this week it's like what I call meeting week, where I'm just meeting with people all day and it's really fun. We do breakfast meetings, we do lunch meetings, even do drinks. There's just a lot of walking around the city. And I always try to schedule my day so that I have my PRH SNS Hachette meetings, you know, close to each other because they are geographically close. And then I do Macmillan and HarperCollins on another day. That's not always possible. Sometimes it's like, ah, this one editor I really want to see. And then we try to meet halfway. I had an editor who's coming, coming to me so that we can, we can do drinks. And that's fun too. I really like the, the portion of our job that is talking to editors. It is like hugely important for us because of, you know, relationships. Like one of the things that makes our job such a human job is that it's all about knowing a person's taste. And taste is something that is both very personal, like hyper personal. Something like, I studied abroad in Spain and I would love a novel set in Spain. Like, very, very personal, but also very, you know, a good agent and a good acquiring editor has that kind of mainstream taste. Mainstream in whatever. Like bucket. You are obviously right. Like, but like, you'll, you'll know that something is really good and that other people will have that reaction to other people will also love it. And so I really enjoy that part of the job. The part about. That's like talking about books, talking about the industry, talking about the market. I feel like I love doing zooms.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

And I'm very grateful we have zooms. But there's just something about an in person meeting, the energy that gets transferred. And also the fact that sometimes people do feel a little bit more comfortable saying things that they wouldn't necessarily in a Zoom.

[Carly Waters]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Not like the secrets to the nuclear clothes or anything, just like, you know, things. And, and that's a huge part of why I like it so much.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

But then in between it all, like, I can't turn off. Right. Like, I'm still finding ways to check my email to look at contracts, to review what needs to get reviewed. Last night I actually finished an edit letter to a client. She finished, I want to say, 50, 60% of her new project and she wanted me to read it to get a check in, which is something I'm open to doing if it works. If it works for the client and for me. And in this case, with this client, it works really well. But it is torture. Like it is actual torture because I stopped at the 60% mark or 50% mark. And I don't want to know. I don't want spoilers. I want to share what my theories are, where I think the story is going. But I was finishing up an edit letter on Sunday evening yesterday and just thinking about how, you know, in one mode I'm like hyper focusing on this edit letter and I forget about everything that's around me and I'm just like in this world, in the weeds, giving like big picture notes. But you know, in order to give big picture notes, you have to substantiate it with, for example, on chapter X, this is happening and I feel like if we, you know, if you did this, like you have to zoom in in order to zoom out. But then afterwards I'm like in another different kind of hyper focused mode and like doing meetings. So like that kind of. Yeah, that kind of energy I really like. And I think it's, I think it works for people with a certain kind of brain. But like 100%, what you said about boundaries, like, absolutely. Like learning how to say no and learning when to say yes and when to say no is like an essential part of being an agent. Because no matter. And this is your line, Carly, you once said this and I, and I quote you all the time querying, as in querying writers and some clients too close will always want more from us. Like, no matter how much we give, it does not matter. Like I, I was used to over delivering. Like in my previous career. I was someone who always over delivered that. That was my, that I loved doing it. I loved going above and beyond always. There is no over delivering the positive

[Carly Waters]

reinforcement in this job. You don't get positive reinforcement always when you're. Just. Because you can't give 110 to everybody.

[Cece Lira]

But if get it, like, because sometimes we do get positive reinforcement. Like, that's not, that's not the reason why it's not possible. It's not possible because the target will always move. It's not possible because even if you do more than what someone expected, all of a sudden they're like, what about this? And it's unconscious. It's not something that, you know, writers, writers are mean about it. You know, clients aren't mean about it. But no matter how much we give in this job, there's always a way to give more. But we, we as humans, because agents are humans. We are made up of finite resources, whether it's our energy, our headspace, our cognitive ability. So it's really important, I think, to be the kind of person who's like, okay, is this a part of my job? Is this within the scope of what I have to do for this person? If it's a no, then that answer tree ends right there. If it's a yes, like, is this the time to do it? Because there's that too, right? Like, you might be able to deliver something just not in the timeline that people are expecting. And then there's a whole answer tree that comes after that.

[Carly Waters]

Okay, so a couple things that came to mind when you were talking. One of the things you're talking about with editors and in person meetings that I think is really interesting is. And I'm sure you totally think about this, even though you didn't say it is. There's a whole different psychology of an in person meeting. There's the whole, like, who gets there first? Who shakes the hand? Do you hug? What's your familiarity with each other? And then you clock like, oh, what are they wearing? Or what did they bring? And everything about them informs who they are. Like, you can't subtract their mind from how editors present themselves. And the same with me, right? I don't expect editors to separate how they think about my mind from the way that I present myself. Myself, right? And so there's. I find that dance of, like, the psychology of getting to know each other from that perspective really interesting. Because there's some editors where we both would, you know, and they might be different people, but people you get really overly familiar with because you have a lot in common personally, or you have great kind of chemistry or, you know, bantering or whatever. So I find that piece really interesting of an in person meeting. I feel like once you, you know, when you're a newbie agent, you're just like, I just got to get to the meeting on time and write down the notes. But once you're more established, you're like, okay, I can take in a lot more. More about the psychology of, like, this interaction and how that infuses the way that I think about this person. You and I both. You're gonna know exactly what I'm talking about. You and I were both at a agent editor drinks one time, and there was an editor who was talking about their job in a very kind of unflattering way. Kind of just being like, you know. You know who I'm talking about. They were, like, kind of overwhelmed, kind of just talking how they're managing up, and they're also managing down. I totally appreciate that that person said that. But you and I, as agents, we clock that and we go, oh, that's an editor that's really overwhelmed.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

I don't know if I actually want to pitch that person right now, because they seem like they have way too much on their plate, and so I actually.

[Cece Lira]

And they're, like, risking burnout. I remember us saying that. We were like, I would not be surprised. Like, sometimes editors leave the biz, and we both go. We're not surprised. Right. Like, and sometimes we are surprised. It depends.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, you know what I mean? Right. It's like, we take in all of these other social cues, status symbols, psychology, in these meetings, which I just wanted. I know that you know, all those things. I just kind of wanted to hammer that home.

I find that piece of.

[Cece Lira]

And really, there's food, too? Like, if you're eating.

[Carly Waters]

Yes.

[Cece Lira]

Like, there's that. What does that person order?

[Carly Waters]

Like, they have dietary restrictions.

[Cece Lira]

Like, like, how. How you eat, how fast you eat. Who eats fast. Like, drinks. What do you order? Like, obviously, these days, like, not everyone drinks alcohol, by the way. A wonderful thing about our society. But then, like, mocktail cocktail. Like.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

It's just so interesting, like, how you

[Carly Waters]

tell somebody they have food in their face, like, food in their teeth or whatever. Right.

[Cece Lira]

You know, like, it's so good way. I have a really good way of telling you people that. Actually, I have a line for that. Yeah. So I. I always. Like, obviously it has to be private. It can't be, like, in front of other people. Right. Like, you find a way. If it's just the two. Two people, then it's a moot point. And I always say, okay, so girl code. Because I would want someone to tell me, is this. Okay. You have food on your teeth, you know, And I. And. And it's fine. Like, it's always fine. Because I would rather people tell me, like, I would always rather someone tell me, like, if you have lipstick in my teeth, food, whatever it is, just tell me. We would check each other's teeth before meetings in London. Do remember this?

[Carly Waters]

Yes. Yes. Because we were eating on the go all the time. Yeah.

[Podcast Announcer]

And.

[Cece Lira]

And it was so funny. And it's like before every meeting in London.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

When did we go to London? Was it 2024? Was 2024.

[Carly Waters]

I would say summer 24. Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah. We would be like teeth check.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. And when I eat also what I've made, if I have lipstick on and I eat, I always end up like getting lipstick, like smeared around my face. So just, you know, note to me to wear less makeup maybe in those days. Anyway, I just wanted to go off on that tangent. Oh, the other thing I wanted to talk about was in terms of what you were saying is the amount of code switching. Like, I don't actually think people understand how much code switching we actually do in any given day. It's constant. I think I've talked about this before, not that long ago, but, you know, for, for me today, right. I'm going from talking to you to talking to my assistant, to working on a contract, to having a really serious conversation with an editor. Like, I'm constant. We're constantly code switching. And even you in New York, right, You're going to be like, okay, I need this type of tone for this meeting.

This type of tone for this meeting.

[Cece Lira]

It's ex.

[Carly Waters]

That's exhausting, the code switching and obviously gets easier over time.

[Cece Lira]

But yeah, especially because, like, after a while you. You still meet with new editors, but a lot of the meetings are people you know really well. So like, one of the editors I'm meeting this week is someone who bid on an auction and lost. And she was really heartbroken. Like, really, really heartbroken. She was so surprised. She was not expecting to lose. And that. And again, it's not the only thing we're going to talk about. Like, we'll probably talk about way more things, but, like, that is a different energy.

[Carly Waters]

Totally.

[Cece Lira]

So it's all. Yeah, it's all really interesting at the same time. Like, I think one of my favorite parts about in person meetings might be when we click over a book. It could be a project I'm pitching, but it could also just be a book that neither of us have any association with. Something like, oh my God, did you really love that too? I really loved that.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Now the origin story I think of so Many agents is the same, which is like, we love books. You know, we love books. And that kind of connection is really special.

[Carly Waters]

Totally. Yeah. No, and not that long ago, an editor reached out to me, and they kind of wanted to, you know, hadn't. Hadn't chatted with you in a while. Like, let's set up a zoom. And then she just called it, like, let's talk about books. She didn't say, like, let's go over our wish list. Because, like, we're both pretty established. Our wish lists are pretty clear. If you've, like, been on Publishers Marketplace, like, you know what we work on. Do you know what I mean? So it wasn't like, let's talk about our list. Nothing's changed in 15 years, really, for either of us. But she's like, let's just talk about books. That's it. She's like, I just want to talk about this book. This book. This book.

[Cece Lira]

This book.

[Carly Waters]

This book. One thing I would say that's come up in so many meetings in the past kind of two months has been strangers. Everybody's wanted to talk about strangers. Industry people have definitely been reading about, reading that, thinking about that book, the memoir Strangers. I know we've already talked about that on the show, but that's something that everybody is still talking about. Unpacking. Why did that work? And other memoirs don't work? Like, we think about that all the time as industry people, because. Because all of us work on so many books, and not every book is going to be a huge hit, and we sometimes.

We just don't know why.

And so we're always, always working on those. And anyway, yeah, I think all this is just a reminder, obviously, is like, why we. Why we love our jobs. It's, you know, we get to. We get to solve problem. It's the problem solving for me, actually, that's kind of one of my joys. My clients bring me, like, a problem, and I'm using air quotes here. Like a problem. I'm always like, it's not a problem. Like, we'll solve it. We'll figure it out. That's one of my joys, is, like, something complicated that's always really fun for me.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, for sure. I love that.

[Carly Waters]

Was there any other days in the

life we didn't really talk about?

I mean, I think we've kind of run through, like, meeting days in the life.

[Cece Lira]

It's. It's just. It changes and it's always fun and.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, awesome. Okay, let's hear a word from our sponsors. And when we come back, we're going to get into a very juicy question that a listener sent us between school

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All right, Cece, do you want to tell us the question that we got that we both thought was quite juicy?

[Cece Lira]

Yeah. So we got a question about how agents feel when they receive a query letter from someone who has been previously agented. When is it neutral? When is it positive? When is it negative? This person said it seems the standard is to say it was amicable, but. But has that word lost its meaning and what if it wasn't amicable? This person also asked if an author has ever turned us down, you know, when we offered representation, but then come back saying, hey, I made a mistake, or saying whatever, you know, saying I'm back and I, I would love to work Together. Have we signed clients who were previously represented by, you know, another agent? Has that ever happened to us? And just generally, like. Like, why do agents and clients part ways? So it's a really big topic, I think, and an important one.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, there's so many layers to it. I'm actually. I was. The reason I was staring at my other screen while you were talking about that was I was trying to find an email from somebody who queried me after being with somebody else. So I just kind of wanted to pull that up at reference. I'm not going to, you know, do any spoilers or anything, but I just kind of wanted to have it handy because there's different ways of doing it. Where do you want to start? With this one, I think.

[Cece Lira]

I think, you know, maybe we could take turns talking about the various elements. There are so many elements. I think. I think the umbrella thing is it's very common for people to think that, like, one of two things. Number one is because I was previously represented, agents are going to be really excited because it means that someone else believed in my story. Like, it's necessarily a positive. Like, that's one interpretation that's really common. It's necessarily a positive because someone else has believed in me, Meaning I have the talent. I have what it takes to be agented. And that. It's not that. That's not true.

[Carly Waters]

Right.

[Cece Lira]

It's just that that's so. Actually really complicated because taste is so subjective. And the fact that someone else has liked your work doesn't indicate to me that I will like. I don't see it as a positive. I also don't see it as a negative. This, to me, is more neutral, and it might be a positive for an agent who's starting out. I think if an agent is just starting out, they might see this as someone else has given a stamp of approval to this person, especially if it's an agent they respect. But as an agent develops their career, I find that it's more common for you to go, you know what? I don't know if it's positive or negative. I'm not saying it's either. I'm saying, like, it is a thing that needs to be discussed for practical reasons. And then the other very common direction that people go is, oh, my God, that means that no one's going to ever want to sign me again. Because if we parted ways, something must have. Like, they'll assume something happened. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Carly Waters]

They're on their back. Yeah, yeah.

[Cece Lira]

And they. And they Kind of think that that's kind of like a kiss of death. And it's definitely not that either because again, there's nuance to it. Like, there's so many things with human relationships. It is really, really complex and there's so many variables. How we approach it really depends on, I mean, first of all, how someone frames it in the query letter. There are definitely like red flags ways to frame it. And there's also like really awesome ways to frame it, which I think is, you know, a little bit more sparse and neutral. And you're right, everyone does use that word amicable a lot. I would say this to, to this person who asked the question the most clear cut, obvious, not even obvious, but like the easiest scenario I think would be like my agent retired, you know, like my agent left the business like that. That is just, you know, I, I know it's not you. I know it's not her or them, you know, I know, I know it's.

[Carly Waters]

I need a new agent for a reason. Yeah. I wasn't like strong armed into a choice either way.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, exactly. And it wasn't like they wanted to leave me or I wanted to leave them. It was like they left this industry for whatever reason.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Anyway, so that, that I think is one of the easy reasons. But we could talk about various reasons. There are various reasons why I made a bunch of.

[Carly Waters]

I made a bunch of notes here. One thing I think that's kind of missing from this question, which would potentially affect the read on this, is whether

they've been published or not.

This just says, have they been represented? This doesn't say whether they've been published. That's actually quite a different scenario if you have been represented and unsold. I have a lot of questions. That's actually not red flag, not yellow. It's just like my antennas go up, as I always say. Right. Because I have to really think about how many people saw this, this manuscript. Are you trying to query me with the same manuscript that this agent.

[Cece Lira]

That is the big question. Like that is the biggest question. And how is it the same manuscript and has it been on sub.

[Carly Waters]

Yes. And how much information do you have? Because a lot of people might think they're agent because they weren't very communicative. And then you think if this person comes to me and says, I want you to go back out on sub with this manuscript, I don't know how many people have seen it, I will have to reject you because I actually like, I can't do my job to the best of my ability. If I don't have that information. So that's a rejection. And pretty much flat out, in my opinion, I just can imagine a world where I would take that on, knowing the amount of just labor and situation that that would put me in with my relationship with editors. Like, I just, I couldn't do something like that.

If you've been published and you're seeking

a new agent, I also have a

lot of questions about that.

Right. How successfully did it go? What did the deal look like, you know, after going through various steps of confidentiality, I'd want to see the contract. You know, you're. I just want. I need a lot of information about. About how it went. How did you feel about how it went? What was the outcome of that situation? And again, you can't give me all that in a query letter, which is why people say amicable. So those are some of my thoughts about that. And we'll. We'll definitely, you know, get into that type of stuff in a call. So I wouldn't like emailing back and

forth with somebody about this necessarily.

It would be more. I would ask. What I always ask point blank is what did you like about that agent relationship and what did you dislike about that agent relationship?

[Cece Lira]

Yeah. What worked for you and what didn't? Right. Because it is so subjective.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. We need to know both sides. Right. There could be a lot of things that really worked and then there, you know, something else that didn't, and that was kind of the deal breaker. And then I have to think as an agent, you know, can I work within what they are looking for? Because if they're seeking a new agent, there's very specific things that they're looking for. Am I that person? So I think about that. The next thing is whether it's a referral or not, a lot of people, you know, by the time that they have again, been in the business a little bit, maybe published some books, and then they're looking for a new agent, they will often come to me through a referral through a client, and they will say, you know, or they'll say in the query letter, you know, I

know you represent so and so, and

they have great things to say about you, which is why I'm querying, you know, I parted ways with my agent. That's a very simple way to do that. So you, like, get a referral or kind of talk about why, you know, stumbled across me. That's kind of important.

But at the end of the day,

like the psychological piece of this to me, it is very neutral. Like it is a business decision ultimately for them and for me about whether knowing what they know and knowing what I know, whether it would be a great fit. One of the things that I've really come to understand about doing this for so many years is when I was younger and starting out put a lot of pressure on myself to be like, you know, need to just fix everything. You know, I've talked about, like, I love to solve all these problems and if a relationship isn't working out or, you know, they, you know, they publish one book and maybe they don't want to work on another book. Like these, this, the concept of like the season of life and the season of career and the moment that that client is in, what they want from themselves. Like, it's not every author that comes across my desk is going to want to publish books for the next, you know, 30 years. But guess what? Like, I'm doing this, you know, as, as my, you know, full time gig. You know, this, this is my career. This is, this is it. And so there are clients that come across our decks that are just going to be for a certain season of life. And so, you know, I know this person isn't asking about my feelings about parting ways with clients, but there's so much that goes into this about what makes sense for a certain amount of time in somebody's life. And, and that's okay. And that's why it's neutral. Like, that's kind of what CC's getting at. It's just, it's all information and then we all just got to go make a business decision.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, for sure. I, I think that for the query letter it's best to leave it pretty standard, almost like simple. I think that we need to know, you know, I have been previously represented before. You don't have to say the agent's name though you're very welcome to, but I don't expect it. And I think it's essential to say this manuscript has not been on submission before or it has. Like, that's two things that need to be in the query letter for the conversation. And keep in mind that no one is having a conversation with you unless they're really into your story. Right. Because we don't like our time is valuable. It is literally money for us. And so we're not hopping on zoom calls to be like, oh, I don't know if I've read this yet or if I'll like it, like that. That doesn't happen. So for that Conversation. I mean, first of all, I would go into it really confidently because the person liked your story, or else they wouldn't be talking to you. And then I would also, as an agent, I do ask, like, I need to know what happened. And it's not because I want to pry, but because I need to know. Like, to your point, Carly, like, if you tell me that you left your agent, your previous agent, because of a reason that I will also. That will also happen with me, then I'm going to be honest with you and I'm going to say probably we're not the best fit. Right? But if you tell me it's something like, I don't know, actually something that's really common, a reason that's really common that I know that people tell me is, you know, communication, like, communication styles is a huge reason why people part ways. So if it's communication, as in agent wouldn't email you back, you know, within a reasonable amount of time, then I'm not worried, because I'm not. I'm. You know, this is something that. This is a strength. I've had problems in the past. Like, I'm human. I. I make mistakes, but it is a strength of mine. And so I'm fine with that. But I think that just as not every book is for everyone, not every agent is for everyone. And that's okay. We don't have to be universally liked. Stories don't have to be universally liked. We grow apart. Agents and clients sometimes grow apart. And it is. It is sad as an agent anyway. Of course, there's that element of sad. But ultimately, at the end of the day, it is a part of the business, and we all have to be really strong and get through it and not lose our minds over it. So growing apart happens. It could be something like the editorial styles didn't match. It could be communication styles. As I've said before, it could even be something like personality. Personality is a part of it. I recently heard from a client that she thought that she needed an agent with a lot of chill. These are her words, because she has no chill. This is what. This is how she refers to herself. And she's like, I need someone with a lot of chill. But then she found out that actually she quite enjoys having an agent who also, in occasion doesn't. Because it's almost like if you match my energy, you feel seen and you're like, oh, actually, I can calm down now because it's also a big deal for you.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

So much of it. We keep saying energy And I think that that's a huge part of every job, but especially our job. I also think that you asked about our personal experience. Like, I have clients who have been previously represented, and I'm sure that every agent feels this way. Actually, there is. There is actually an advantage to someone who knows the industry more than someone who's never had an agent. Like, there is an advantage to that because they typically know the industry a little bit better. But, you know, I'm also not gonna say it's all ponies and rainbows, because I've also been on calls, and I know of agents who have been on calls with people who have had previous representation. And there were a little bit of red flags, you know, like, something that you should, I feel, not do is, like, badmouth someone else in a disrespectful way. It's okay to say, hey, this. This thing didn't work. Work for me. Right? Like, that's totally fair. But it's a professional setting, so there's. There's that, too. But I think. I think approach it as something neutral. Like, that's what I would say to this person. Approach it as something neutral. Be really polite and professional about it and let the strength of your story speak for itself. And, you know, if it is a situation where the manuscript has not been out on submission yet, please make sure that is very clear in the query letter. I mean, you have to make sure either way. But know that it is an advantage if something hasn't been submitted before. Our lives are way easier. It is not that an agent won't take on something that has been submitted before, but it is way more rare and for good reason. There's very little we can do once people have already seen something.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. And another thing, just to, like, throw a wrench in this whole conversation, which is, like, if an agent loves your work, like, there's been people that have come into my inbox being, like, seeking new representation. I'm like, I am such a huge fan of yours. Even if you're in a bit of a sticky situation, like, if I'm on board, I'll get you out of it. You know, like, so there is the thing. It's kind of just that, you know, if they wanted to, they would, right? Later, people talk about relationship. Like, if he wanted to, he would. But they just. Like, if they wanted to, they would. You know, like, you want somebody that really wants to work with you.

[Cece Lira]

You 100% want that. It's. It's the number one criteria. It's why the Concept of dream agents is so tricky. Like, it's not that you can't have dream agents or dream editors, but your dream partner is the partner who's obsessed with your story.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Like, you want someone who's like, oh, my God, this. This story. I love this story. I have to tell you about the story. Like, they're. Like, there's energy. Energy radiating off them. You want that so much. It's so important, and you can't predict who that'll be. You can make informed decisions when, you know, curating your submissions list, like, agents do, too. But that person, the person who has the excitement and the passion, that person is the person you want.

[Carly Waters]

Totally. Yeah. Well, I feel like we have a lot more to unpack there, so we have to move. Move some of that. More of that conversation to next week because I enjoyed that. I just wanted to do a quick highlight of. Of what's going on with the sales as I promised. So, US book sales update, first quarter of 2026. Some of this comes from Publishers Weekly.

Some of this comes from Publishers Lunch.

Some of this comes from the Bottom

Line, which is Jane Friedman's newsletter.

Okay. Compared to the first three months of 2025. So we're doing a year on year combo here. Print sales this year are down by 3.1%, according to BookScan.

In a bright spot of news, children's

sales saw some growth, which was the only category to do do so, which is really interesting after we've talked about all the shadowing, the layoff prints, the layoffs. Very, very interesting.

[Cece Lira]

What?

[Carly Waters]

The only two adult nonfiction categories to see growth were crafts, hobbies, and games, which is one category, and religion. So do with that what you will. Meanwhile, Publishers Lunch reports that deal making is, quote, looking more fractured, end quote.

This year, adult fiction continues to drive the marketplace. Non fiction deals are flat.

Total deals in the children's market were down 18%. So not the most uplifting of market updates, but I definitely wanted to make sure that we set that your way.

[Cece Lira]

I'm just not happy with the fact that so many children's imprints were closed and there were layoffs and all that. And then we see the news about children's sales being up, but then at the same time, the deal's going down. Like, come on, publishing, let's get our

[Carly Waters]

together blockbuster model, right? Everybody knows how we feel about our blockbuster model, right?

[Cece Lira]

Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

Okay.

Well, that's it for today, everybody.

Cece's gonna run off to her meetings. I'm gonna get back to my contract, and we will see you again next week.

[Podcast Announcer]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one for the summer, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 1st of June, with the matchup emails going out on the 2nd of June. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page.

[Cece Lira]

What's up everyone? This is cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from Harper Collins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled. And I wasn't surprised at all because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with with hooks and of course, in my Submissions inbox. But at the same time, I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean, it's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible, to make agents crave it, to make agents want to read more. That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course Starting it How to begin your story in the best place and in the best way I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure that your style story's beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the best one, the best place to start, and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things when it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory and what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline.

Most of all, I'm going to show

you how to make readers want to turn to Chapter two. Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepare to take lots of notes. We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques, plus a super fun surprise that I can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.