Shooting the Shit About What Carly and CeCe Want To Fix In The Publishing Industry and (of course!) Heated Rivalry

Summary

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Shooting the Shit About What Carly and CeCe Want To Fix In The Publishing Industry and (of course!) Heated Rivalry
Hosts: Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra
Date: January 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special “Shooting the Shit” episode features literary agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra in an open, candid discussion (“hence the great title,” as CeCe quips at [01:28]). With Bianca absent, the duo cover a range of topics important to emerging writers, including needed changes in the publishing industry, personal anecdotes about memory and title-stealing, some pop-culture TV-and-book chat (“Heated Rivalry”), fresh discussions about marketing and agenting, industry stats, and insightful answers to audience questions on agent guides and more. The tone is unfiltered, witty, and deeply knowledgeable—perfect for writers seeking advice and a window into the business.

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Key Topics and Insights

1. Podcast Structure & Tone

• Carly and CeCe joke about their lack of organization, missing Bianca’s “General Z” energy, and maintaining a loosely structured, conversational show ([01:00–02:00]).
• “It's a show where we shoot the shit. Hence, hence the great title.” – CeCe ([01:28])

2. Engaging with the Writer Community

• Both hosts discuss the difficulties of managing DMs and social media engagement, drawing the line between being influencers versus thought leaders ([02:47–04:13]).
• “I love having a literary community but sometimes I feel like backed into the corner of being a quote unquote influencer… I want to reply to everybody and I can’t.” – Carly ([03:39])

3. CeCe’s Mea Culpa – The Importance of Memory & Attribution

• CeCe admits to misremembering and unintentionally taking credit for a client’s book title, exploring the unreliability of memory and the importance of owning up to mistakes:
  • “Your brain is a liar.” – Carly ([05:37])
  • “I took credit for my client’s work. Horrible, horrible agent moment. Guys, I’m so sorry. This is, like, unacceptable.” – CeCe ([05:54–06:00])
  • Retraction was handled with grace, humor, and full transparency ([05:37–07:56]).

4. Personal Updates and Work-Life Balance

• The hosts chat about fitness routines, winter slowness, husbands who bring coffee to bed, busy schedules, and their shared love of books over working out ([08:01–10:25]).
  • “Reading a book, way more fun than working out.” – CeCe ([09:46])

5. Publishing News – Deep Dive and Author Events

• CeCe and Carly discuss the upcoming Deep Dive event, lineup highlights, and notable sessions on genre-blending, short stories being adapted for Hollywood, and more ([10:26–13:50]).
• Carly plugs client E.J. Dixon’s NYC book launch, noting the importance of literary community events ([14:03–15:15]).

6. Heated Rivalry – TV and Book Crossovers

• Carly shares her excitement about the TV adaptation of “Heated Rivalry,” discovering her client Harrison Brown’s cameo, and the joy of seeing authentic connections between literature, television, and community pride ([16:04–17:49]).
  • “So I was just so excited to see a client in a hit TV show…feeling lots of national pride over Heated Rivalry.” – Carly ([17:06])

7. Major Segment: What Carly and CeCe Want to Fix in Publishing ([20:53–34:46])

The hosts volley back and forth with specific (often controversial!) ideas for industry reform:

Carly’s and CeCe’s Fixes:

• Transparency in Marketing Budgets: Authors should know what support their book is getting ([21:04]).
• Pay Publishing Employees More: From diversity to overtime, “this is the crux of almost all the issues.” – Carly ([21:28])
• Raise Book Prices: To both address inflation and fund better pay ([21:49]).
• Remove Sales Tax on Books: Promotes reading and access; inspired by examples like Brazil ([25:13]).
• In-house Fact-Checking: Nonfiction books especially need stronger vetting ([26:14]).
• Higher & Escalating Royalties Across Formats: Better pay for authors ([27:22]).
• More On-the-Job Training: Upskilling, especially in publishing marketing and contracts ([27:49–29:03]).
• Escrow for Advances: Advance money should earn interest for the author while contracts are finalized ([29:18]).
• Editors Should Get Contracts Training: Reduces friction with agents and improves deals ([30:25]).
• Publishers Shouldn’t Auto-Grab Audio Rights: Audio deals should mean more money, not be presumed ([32:27]).
• Industry Needs More Publishers: Reduce the “oligopsony”—too few buyers, too many sellers ([34:25]).
  • “Publishing is an oligopsony…If we had more competition, a lot of things would naturally be fixed.” – CeCe ([34:25])
• No Taxes on Books: Books foster empathy & critical thinking; incentivize reading with price breaks ([25:13–26:06]).

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8. Substack & Social Media Highlights ([34:46–37:23])

• Previewed upcoming essays on starting stories at the right place, the impact of social media on writers’ productivity, changing genre/POV, and sustainability in publishing.
  • “Books increase empathy and books increase critical thinking. We need more books, we need more readers.” – CeCe ([25:15])

9. Discussion: Matt Haig’s Instagram Post & Authorial Vulnerability ([37:23–41:45])

• Matt Haig’s Instagram post about the dark side of literary fame and the toll of critical public attention sparks an empathetic conversation.
  • “Some people wonder, why isn’t this author writing more? … there’s so much pressure that comes with being a successful author.” – Carly ([41:45])
  • “The internet has become a massive version of the old town square where people were suffering…” – CeCe ([40:15])

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10. Agent Guides: Evolving Book-Pitching on Social Media ([41:45–49:37])

• Analysis of visual “agent guides” (slide decks, Canva images, etc.) and whether they're effective or could backfire for querying writers.
  • “The best way to land an agent: write a fantastic query letter and fantastic first pages…that will make us go, yes, please.” – CeCe ([49:37])
  • “I do think anything with a timestamp can potentially make something feel ‘stale.’ ...but I would probably just be reposting it.” – Carly ([45:20])

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11. Industry Sales Stats: 2025 Category Performance ([49:51–53:36])

• Discussion of year-over-year shifts for various genres:
  • Adult fiction up 1%
  • Science fiction up 22.1%
  • Fantasy down 8.7%
  • Self-help up 14.7%
  • Biography/autobiography/memoir down 7%
  • Children’s/YA genres up and down by ~1–4%
  • “So much of this has to do with single titles… and I do not like this about our industry, but…” – CeCe ([52:29])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• CeCe wrestles with unreliable memory:
  “My brain, all of our brains, are liars...I took credit for my client’s work. Horrible, horrible agent moment.” ([05:37–06:00])

• On the publishing labor crisis:
  “If employees are paid more, we’d get diversity, less burnout, less scarcity mentality.” – Carly ([21:28])

• On the enduring importance of great writing:
  “[Fancy pitch decks, apps] will come in handy when promoting your book. They're typically not going to land you the agent of your dreams… The best way to land an agent: write a fantastic query letter and fantastic first pages.” – CeCe ([49:37])

• On the perils of literary fame:
  “There’s so much pressure that comes with being a successful author, and there’s a lot of pressure that they feel on their shoulders.” – Carly ([41:45])

• On publishing “oligopsony”:
  “If we had more major publishers, so many of these issues would be fixed… I want to stop saying the word!” – CeCe ([34:25])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:00] – Banter on podcast structure, creativity, and disorganization
• [02:47] – Social media engagement, influencer vs. thought leader discussion
• [05:37] – CeCe’s mea culpa: memory, book titles, and apology
• [08:01] – Personal check-in: routines, books, Deep Dive event
• [16:04] – TV/book crossover: Heated Rivalry and national pride
• [20:53] – Main segment: Fixing the publishing industry (tennis match-style)
• [34:46] – Substack and essay previews
• [37:23] – Matt Haig, mental health, and the cost of success
• [41:45] – Agent guides, visual pitching, querying advice
• [49:51] – Sales stats: genre/market analysis

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Final Thoughts

The hosts’ mix of candor, industry expertise, and warm, self-effacing humor makes this episode a goldmine for emerging and established writers alike. With transparency as a through-line—whether regarding publishing structures, personal foibles, or the realities of “making it”—Carly and CeCe offer actionable insights and comforting solidarity for writers navigating an often-opaque business.

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Listen Next

Check out the next Substack, follow CeCe and Carly on their personal socials—not the podcast account!—and watch for updates on future guests and more “Shooting the Shit” sessions.

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Transcript

[A]

Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep Dive ever. Then the beta reader matchup is open once again, with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the Shit About Writing to find out more. Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary.

[B]

Hi everybody. Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit. We are so glad to have you. I think it's been like approximately six months since we've been doing this. We have not been keeping track of this, mostly because we are not very organized. So we are having a lot of fun with this. But we have a Google Doc. Let's just say we have a Google Doc that we update, we share some notes, we know approximately what we're going to talk about, we add in some questions from you guys, we add in the sub stacks and, and yeah, that's about as organized as we are.

[C]

And all the organization that does exist is largely. Carly, I need to give a shout out to you, Carly, because it's. I feel like no one's going to be shocked by the fact that the segment in which it's just Carly and me and Bianca isn't here is the least organized segment because we don't have General Z. Exactly keeping us in line. And yeah, I feel like also that's, that's part of the nature of the show. It's not a structured show. It's a show where we shoot the shit. Hence, hence the great title.

[B]

We've been thinking about getting some guests to join us, but again, we aren't that organized. But we were thinking about Sean, who we mentioned, Shondalon, whose substack we. We've read on this podcast, I think a couple times, definitely last week. Leigh Stein, who's another publishing expert and great critical thinker of our business. So, you know, when we get organized, maybe we will start to have some guests. But you just get me and cece again, this Week.

[C]

Yeah. And we want to hear from you. We want to know, do you guys want us to add guests to. To the segment occasionally or are you like. No, no guests for now. Keep the small talk just between the two of you. We want your opinion. So if you're watching this on YouTube, comment, because we want to know. And if you're listening to this, let us know in our. Where should people let us know? Instagram.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Like, yeah, whatever the wheel is for this week. Comment.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, on Instagram. As you guys know, Cece and I have DMs that are open, but we get a lot of DMs so we can't always reply to them, but we do try to look at them all, but please don't send them to the podcast. The podcast, Instagram specifically, because we don't have anybody that's able to monitor those DMs specifically. So if you're going to DM US, choose our personal accounts. And yeah, I also will say, you know, I made a story about this. I don't know if you've ever done this, cc, but like, I made a story and I deleted it. I usually don't delete stories, but I was like, what is this doing? What is this serving? So I made a story about how I'm just not able to respond to all the DMS that I get. And I don't know, I deleted it. I just, I felt a little grumpy. The tone of it wasn't the tone that I kind of wanted to hit, because I am thrilled that I get to kind of engage with such a wonderful community. But I don't think of myself as an influencer. I kind of think of myself as like a thought leader. And so anyway, I've kind of stumbled into this content creation, as you guys know, from, you know, blogging to social media to podcasting. And I love having a literary community, but sometimes I feel like backed into the corner of being a quote unquote influencer sometimes. And I'm like, I don't know, I want to reply to everybody and I can't. And I have a day job, which you guys know, which is why you follow me, because I have to do my day job. So anyway, I had a kind of a grumpy post about I'm sorry I can't reply to everybody's dms and yada, yada, yada. So anyway, give. Give us some grace. Maybe I'm just being hard on myself.

[C]

But wait, are people complaining that you're not responding? Are you Just projecting that they're.

[B]

I'm projecting. I'm 100% projecting.

[C]

I'm projecting.

[B]

Yeah. Nobody complains.

[C]

I honestly feel like the majority of our community gets it, you know, get it. And there's always gonna be, like, a couple people who won't get it. But that's just the exception. Yeah, people. We're busy. We're busy. They know that I know. Okay, so I would like to begin by issuing a retraction. A much needed retraction. A mea culpa moment. I mentioned on the podcast, I believe it was last week. But I don't know. I might be getting this wrong, that the title to Laura Leffler's tell them you lied was suggested by yours truly. By myself. I had this. I have this memory. I have this memory. This is a scary part. Okay? This memory exists where I was reading Laura's manuscript. A character said the sentence, tell them you lied. I then highlighted that sentence, started a little notes on Word. You know how Microsoft Word has that feature? And then I wrote, this is amazing. This should be the title. Now, this memory was totally created by my brain. I remember in law school hearing about how witness testimony was the most effective way to sway a jury. And that was really ironic because studies show how memory is very unreliable. I'm also really into psychology, as you guys know, So I know this also because of, like, just being into psychology. And yet I'm still shocked that my brain did it because, like, obviously I'm very, like, I think very highly of my brain, and I think my brain wouldn't do that. Like, just shows me, you know, just.

[B]

Goes to show, your brain is a liar. Your brain is a liar.

[C]

My brain, all of our brain. Brains are liars. But, like, I thought my brain was, like, not lying to myself, you know, not. Not about creating memories. I knew. I knew I didn't lie to myself in other ways, and that's not true. That did not happen. Okay? Laura came up with the title by.

[B]

By doing.

[C]

By the exact same thing I just described. But, like, I. I took credit for my client's work. Horrible, horrible agent moment. Guys, I'm so sorry. This is, like, unacceptable. And we can all start a hotline. If I'm doing this, if I'm taking credit for other people's works, we can start a hotline where we can all call out my egocentric brain and. Yeah, and just shame me because it's really bad. I will say that because I am, again, so stubborn. I. Even though I had irrefutable proof that this was done in the way that I just described Laura doing it. I had an email in which she suggested the title to me. I was like, wait, but why do I have this memory? So I started searching all the old files. Like, I spent like 30 minutes doing this. It was, like, ridiculous because I'm, like, so scared. Like, what if I'm losing my mind? So then I found an old version with a different title in which I did highlight alternative titles. And I said, I really like this title, but not so much this title, but I would love a title with you. Right. This was before she came up with the idea of tell them you lie. So I'm not. Like, this is obviously not the same, but I'm showing that this is scary. And I don't know. I don't. Retraction issued. I'm very sorry.

[B]

So did you catch yourself or did Laura call you out? Does Laura listen to the show?

[C]

Okay, so Laura. Laura listens to the show. And she texted me the email to be like, cece, she wasn't mad. She was, like, laughing. She was like, this is hysterical. And she kept saying, like, it's because we came up with it together because we share a brain. She said the loveliest things. But that is just my client being really nice. No, it was not. Okay, we do not. Like, we do not share a brain in that sense. Like, we share a brain. We are very cognitively connected. But, like, Laura was gracious and lovely and amazing, but, like, no.

[B]

And. And.

[C]

And the weird part is I still didn't believe her after seeing her. Her email. It's not that I didn't believe her. I just thought that it happened to both of us.

[B]

Said, oh, okay. I was like, when somebody comes up with the same idea at the same time. Yes.

[C]

So I started searching files. But that's not true. That didn't happen. That did not happen. And yet I still have this memory. Spooky. Unreliable narrator.

[A]

Cc.

[C]

Anyway, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Retraction issued. Laura did not ask me to issue a retraction, but I feel like I.

[B]

Have to hand in your agent card. You don't get it anymore. I'm just kidding.

[C]

I'm just gonna go here. Here you go.

[B]

Goodbye. All right, I want to hear how. How is your workout routine going? You. You said you were thinking about some ideas about incorporating some fitness in. And I'm going to partner. Oh, look. So on YouTube, you can see what she's holding. For anybody that is listening, she's holding up a 10 pound weight, which is A decent size weight. Good job, Cece.

[C]

I am. Well, the. For the brain, it's very important to do resistance training and strength training, apparently. And, you know, again, my brain needs it as. As we've just established.

[B]

So.

[C]

So I am not a class in the morning person. I had a lot of people suggest to me classes. Multiple people was like, hey, you should do this class. And people gave me some great suggestions, but I looked up, like, schedules, and most of these classes begin at an ungodly hour.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Like 6:30 in the morning.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I do not believe in being vertical at 6 in the morning, let alone moving my body in tandem. Like group activity stuff, like. No, thank you. This is how my mornings work in winter, guys. Winter. This is very important. Winter. It's so dark in the morning. I wake up and my husband brings me coffee in bed. And I have leisurely coffee in bed for A good, like, 20 minutes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I like slow mornings. I am not interested in choreographed movements with, like, someone being peppy and telling me what to do. Like, I'm 0% interested in that at 6 in the morning. So they have really terrible times for these classes. But I'm thinking of doing it on the weekends because that could work. And then, until then, I am trying to do some at home with, like, weights that I bought. Yeah, I bought multiple weights. This is the heaviest one. I, of course, brought the heaviest one.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But I also have, like, baby weights, different movements.

[B]

Yeah. And.

[C]

And yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying really hard.

[B]

Good job.

[C]

But I must be honest. Like, it's not fun. You know, books are way more fun than working out. Like, I have to tell you this. I have to tell you this in case no one knows. Reading a book, way more fun than working out. Way better.

[B]

You know, wait till I break it to you that you can walk on a treadmill and read at the same time. It's all possible. Okay.

[C]

Yeah. But I don't do treadmills. I can do, like, walking outside.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Audiobook.

[C]

For sure.

[B]

For sure.

[C]

But I can't do treadmills. I've tried treadmills. They deeply annoy me. Because you're not going anywhere.

[B]

Like. Yeah, okay.

[C]

It frustrates.

[B]

I'm very.

[C]

I'm a very difficult person, Carly, in case you don't remember, in case you've gotten.

[B]

We've had nine recorded minutes talking about all of CC's issues this morning.

[C]

Not all of them, just some.

[B]

Just shout out to husbands that bring coffee in bed. Because my husband also does this. He gets up with the kids more than half the week and he'll get up with our younger and then he'll bring me coffee in bed. So I also like to wake up a bit slower. So, yes, shout out to all those lovely husbands. And so I am not attending Deep Dive this year. So I need an update on Deep Dive. Okay. How is it going? Tell me everything. All you guys are posting about it. It looks so exciting. I am going to be traveling, so I'm going to be missing Deep Dive. So tell me what's going on.

[C]

Okay, so first of all, we're going to miss you a lot. I hope your travels go really well, but I hope you also experience a tiny bit of fomo because we'll miss you. You're not going to experience film. We're going to be traveling and having a fabulous time, but we will experience missing you. Yeah, it's going really well. I'm really excited about it. We have a. We're pre gaming, so we begin our pregame on January 24, which is actually my husband's birthday, speaking of husbands. And so we're going to have a pre game meetup that day, but then Deep Dive officially begins. Like, the actual Deep dive weekend is January 31st and then February 1st. And we're so excited. And okay, so I've been having this conversation with multiple people who signed up, including Bianca, who's obviously hosting it with me. Who are you most excited about? Right. Like, which presentation are you most excited about? And this is like, so hard to choose because part of me, part of my brain goes, okay, I'm really excited about the one where, you know, like, we have an acquiring editor and an agent talking about like the behind the scenes of buying a book, of making a book happen. Like, the collaboration seems so exciting. And then my brain goes to wait, no, but they're actually, you know, another acquiring editor from, from HCI is going to talk about, like, genre blends and how important that. And like these days genre blends are so big. And like, I'm really excited about that too. And then we have another presentation about like interpreting agents responses so that you can like, make sense of them. And because I'm an agent and I give responses, I'm like, oh, I'm so curious to know, like, how aligned.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So. And then of course we have the Amazing short story one where Katrina from Sugar 23 is going to talk about, like, how short stories are currently being adapted in Hollywood, being sold, you know, from major deals into film and tv. And these are like unpublished short Stories by unpublished writers. So, like, not big writers or not short stories that were in the, I don't know, New York, New Yorker.

[B]

Yeah, we haven't.

[C]

You and I have talked about this on the show. Right, Carly, this new update in the film.

[B]

We talked about it a little bit when I got back from la. So I love that you guys are doing a full session on that. That's great.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. So we talked about that and, like, how fun it is. It's been going on. I don't know how long it's been going on for, but I'm pretty sure I first heard about it, like, a year ago, which doesn't mean it's been happening. It could be happening for a lot longer. It's just when I first heard about it, I'm sure. I'm pretty sure. And it's just one of those things that's, like, so exciting and, like, Katrina's gonna break down stories that she sold, unpublished stories, and going to explain, like, what a story has to have on the page in order to have a chance at, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And the interesting thing is, because I've seen some of these stories there. It's a very different bar from what you need to make a short story work. Just in. Right. In reading.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, it's a very different bar. So the idea of, like, breaking that down sounds super fun. I'm also really excited because our deep dive delegates. So everyone who attends the deep dive will get to submit to Katrina. And what if. I mean, obviously there's no guarantee this will happen, but, like, what if one of these short stories actually becomes a TV show or a movie? Like, isn't that the coolest thing? Like, again, I'm not saying this is going to happen, but sometimes our business.

[B]

Is very magical, you know, it is a lot of serendipity sometimes. So I'm excited. I mean, after watch the recording, you are giving me a lot of fomo. Yay. I did it.

[C]

I gave you fomo. Well, it's because you're not on your trip yet, so that's why I managed. I know, but I'll take it.

[B]

I know. That's great. Awesome. Well, I've been very busy, so I'm going away next week. So I have been. I'm actively negotiating three deals right now. So I have, like, emails back and going back and forth on three deals. I have two contracts I'm doing. I have three client manuscripts, one proposal, and just, like, obviously, my daily emailing. So, yeah, I'm. I'm a little Bit busy right now, but it's all like good busy. My like calibration is always can my inbox be under 50 by the end of the day? And a couple times this week my inbox has been under 40, which is like thrilling for me. So. So yeah, so I've been busy with that. And then my client EJ Dixon is doing her one bad mother launch in New York. So when I am back from traveling, I'm going to New York. So I hope to see as many of you kind of New Yorker tri state area fol possible. So the event is at the Strand, the famous strand Bookstore on February 9th. It is ticketed, so you have to get a ticket. And EJ will be in conversation with the Rebecca Traister who is doing the in conversation. So it's going to be an awesome event. So make sure you grab a ticket for that. I will see you guys there. I am very excited.

[C]

That sounds like so much fun. I'm really looking forward to that for you. Yeah, I, I don't have a tally of number of things, but I've been doing a lot of calls, setting up lunches and in person meetings for a few projects I'd like to pitch. Pitching is always so much fun. I love pitching. Also doing one of my favorite things ever, which is working on deal memos. It's fun at this stage. And then doing one of my not so favorite things ever, which is waiting for contracts. Nobody likes to wait for contracts. Like there are zero agents who enjoy the waiting for the contract period, I am sure. Oh, I'm also reading a full manuscript and really loving it. I'm. I'm at the 50% mark, I want to say, which is like a big compliment because again, if you're, if you get to 50% like it means that the book is so good already and it's just so fun so far. So I'm really looking forward to it. I will share more about it when we record next.

[B]

All right, so this is something where as Canadians who are bookish people, we haven't talked about all the show yet, but we absolutely have to talk about when I made a note which is we have to talk about heated rivalry. The book entirely show.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And so I was making these notes for cece and cece's notes in our doc was cece did not watch it. Okay. So I was planning on watching it yet. Okay. Yet. So I was planning on watching it over the break, but as you guys know, I had family stuff going on and I was like, I don't want to catch up on that right now. So I binge watched it last week and obviously fell in love with the show, as everybody has. And so now I've gone back and started reading the books because normally I will definitely try to read a book before the movie or television show, but in this case, I watched the show and now I'm going back to read the books. But it's been so good and so many, like, I don't know, wonderful little, like, serendipitous things. So my client, Harrison Brown, who wrote the book Let Us Play, is actually in the, in the show. So Harrison is an actor who played hockey, like, you know, growing up and played in college. So Harrison is actually an actor in the show. So if you remember the scene where it's not very often that Ilya has a teammate in his hotel room, but if you remember when Ilya has a teammate in his hotel room who's sitting on the other bed and kind of talking about the game, that's my client, Harrison Brown. So yay, Harrison. Hopefully Harrison's in the second season as well. And check out his book that he co wrote with his sister, Let Us Play. So, yeah, I was just so excited to see a client in a hit TV show, and part of it is kind of mentioned or set in Ottawa, which is where I live, so I'm, like, feeling lots of national pride over heated rivalry.

[C]

I, I. Okay, I have to watch this now. Now you're making me want to watch it. That sounds really exciting.

[B]

So I'm excited about that. Okay, so some topics we wanted to talk about today. We've done a lot of chit chat today, so we want to talk about things that we want to fix in the book business. That was one of my topics for us to discuss. If CeCe and Kylie could wave their magic wand, what could we actually fix in the book business? That's something I want to talk about. We're going to tell you guys what is in the substack tomorrow. I want to talk about a. I have a wand.

[C]

Can we all take a moment? Because I have a wand. I have an actual wand.

[B]

Of course you do. You have great props. I don't have any. I don't have any good props. Okay. Another thing that's coming up is I want to talk about Matt Haig's post. Matt Haig wrote the Midnight Library, along with so many other great books, had a really interesting Instagram post that I want to chat about. And we also have a question from the audience about these kind of like visual agent guides that people have been posting on social media. So we have lots of great stuff coming up. But first we're going to throw to our sponsor. Are you starting a new job cleaning out last year's don't fit anymore outfits? Do you simply need a wardrobe refresh? Well, Quince has you covered. Luxe essentials that feel effortless and polished. You can layer them, I know I do, and mix and build a wardrobe that lasts. The versatile styles make it easy to reach for them day after day. And I am such a creature of habit that once I like something I buy it in multiple colors and that's what I'm doing with my quince pieces. Quince has all the staples covered. I can't stop talking about the Mongolian cashmere teas and I will not rest until everyone has one. I've already talked them up to everyone in my life and I am talking them up to you too. I have three and I'm wearing them every day. The cashmere sweaters feel like designer pieces but don't have the markup. Then there's the 100% silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up. Now let's talk Italian wool. The Italian wool coats are beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and built to be worn for years. Like everything from quints, each piece is made with premium materials and ethical listed factories, then priced far below other luxury brands. My cashmere sweaters are on constant rotation over here. It's been so cold lately that I've been layering a cashmere sweater tee with a cardigan over top for a lovely soft hugged wool feeling. You know when it's cold outside but you're going somewhere but you don't exactly know what the temperature is going to be inside. Happens to me all the time and for that I've been wearing my sleeveless cashmere sweater. I can layer it, but if I'm too hot I have the right amount of coverage. It's so cozy while giving my arm some room to breathe. It feels very chic as well. Multiple people in my extended family have bought them because I've been parading them around. I have the oatmeal in two styles and I have heather gray as well. The colors are very quiet luxury if you ask me. They have over 8,000 reviews on the website averaging, wait for it, five stars. They have earned every single one, believe me. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Don't wait. Go to quince.comtsnatyaw for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.comtsnatya to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comtsnatya all right, we are back and talking about what Carly and Cece want to fix in the book business. Maybe we'll go back and forth like a tennis match. So you say one, I say one, vice versa. So Cece, what is one thing that you wish you could fix in the book business?

[C]

I mean, you shared your, your, your list ahead of time. So the first one on your list, which I will not ruin is the same on mine.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And I'm only saying that to say that I feel like that's. Who doesn't.

[B]

The crux of the, you know, everyone.

[C]

Wants that, but whatever, I will, I will skip that one. Something I'd really love is transparency about budgets given to each project, specifically marketing budgets. So authors don't actually know how much publishers are spending on their books in terms of like, promoting them and stuff, marketing wise. And I think that transparency on that would be really helpful and would go a long way. How about you?

[B]

The first thing on my list was figuring out how to pay employees and publishing houses more and agencies and all the places. Because this is, to me, the crux of all, almost all of the issues, everything from like, diversity to, you know, overtime, like people having to be compensated for overtime for, I don't know, to like just that not having a scarcity mindset about your, like, situation if you're not getting, you know, paid that much in a big city. So, yeah, I think just being able to pay publishing employees more is just crucial to like, I don't know. Yeah, just people feeling more settled in their adulthood so that, you know, there's not that scarcity mindset with work and they can focus on their work because everybody is overworked. You know, not only people at junior levels to also senior levels. Everybody's just overworked. And I don't know, again, I don't do the balance sheet at publishers, so I don't know how we're going to pay everybody more. I have some ideas about how to pay everybody more mostly being another thing on my list, which is so I might have to do two in a row here, which is raising the price of books. So this might be a controversial take because, you know, a hardcover book can be, you know, 35, $40 these days. And I understand that. I always make the case for book prices rising because they have to rise with things like Inflation or just kind of entertainment budgets in general. And so if somebody is in the position where they can't afford that book, they can get it from the library. You know, like, there are other ways to get that book. So I'm not trying to say let's raise the prices so that everything about books is inaccessible. It's that there are still ways for everybody at every price point to get books. But I do actually think we need to raise the list price of books more. And that will help, help raise money so that we can pay people in publishing more. Cc, do you want to chime in on that? Because I know that's on your list too.

[C]

I think at the heart of that is the fact that in creative industries there's a lot of exploitation because there's this idea that, because it's so, like, it's a cool job, you know, like, it's not like. And I apologize to everyone else, everyone out there who's an accountant, but if you say you're an accountant, that is a boring job. I'm sorry. It just is like, hey, I'll use my former job, lawyer. I remember being in parties, being like, what do you do lawyer? People will be like, okay, great. Okay, like, moving around, like, I have no questions. I have no questions. And if there were questions, they weren't questions about like, oh my God, how cool. You know, like, in fairness, I did a very boring kind of law, but still working in publishing is cool. Like, working with books is cool. It's not as cool and as glamorous as coming.

[B]

Okay, I was gonna say we think it's pretty cool. I don't know if it's like capital C cool like fashion is, but it's a pretty cool culture of the arts.

[C]

It's the less cool, but it's still in the arts. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's still a profession where there's this social cachet attached to it. Fair or not, this is just how reality works. And I feel like because of that, in these industries there's a lot of potential for exploitative work. And I do not like that. It obviously hurts everyone. And people with less power, it hurts people even more. And yeah, it's ah, it's just one of those things. But I will share my next one, which is something that we've. I've shared before. Oh my gosh, so long ago before Shoot the shit. Back when Curly and I recorded like end of year episodes where we shared, like, you know, our favorite TV shows, our favorite books, which Is no taxes on books. No taxes on books. Books will no longer be taxed. This is a thing in other countries. Brazil, for example, there's no taxes on books in Brazil. If you go to a foreign country and buy 400 books when you come in, you do not pay import tax. If when you go to a store and you buy a book, you do not pay sales tax on that. I mean, it could have changed because I haven't looked it up in a long time, but I don't think.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

And no taxes on books is actually a really great way to promote, to increase sales without having to necessarily increase the price. And you can actually increase the price if that's a good solution. But then the final price won't be that different because there will be no sales tax. And it's not that I don't believe in taxation. I am very pro taxation in many, many situations. It's just that. Here's the thing. Books are the last line of defense when it comes to things our society desperately needs. We need more empathy in the world and we need more critical thinking in the world. Guess what accomplishes both of these things? Books. Books increase empathy and books increase critical thinking. We need more books, we need more readers. So I actually think it would be really smart to not have taxation on books. And I'm in favor of that. So I know that's also a little controversial, but hey, I stand by my opinion. How about you, what's the next one.

[B]

You'Re just recording us? Controversy, Cece gonna get us in trouble.

[C]

Book prices should increase, lady.

[B]

They're trying to cause drama today. Okay, my next one is in house fact checkers. So some of you might not realize this, but books are not fact checked in house by a publisher. Like in terms of non fiction, somebody could be writing a factual piece of kind of reporting or science or history. And the in house publisher is not required to fact check it. The author of the book can do the fact checking. And they would have to hire them out of their, you know, own budget, which can be expensive. And some authors definitely do this, but some authors don't. And so books, as you guys know, go out into the world with errors in them. Sometimes critical errors. And then there's this whole drama, this happens at least once a year with a big nonfiction book about errors in this title. So to prevent all of this and just kind of increase the quality and the standard of nonfiction projects, because there's a lot of also like woo, woo science books out there which are like, are those, you know, you Know what I'm talking about? The pseudo science books. Everything should require fact checking, especially if it's published by the largest publishers, just for the reputation of our business, for just, you know, keeping up quality standards. So that's one for me. Yeah.

[C]

Another one for me would be just higher royalties across the board with escalators in every format. You know, we've talked about escalators before. It's when, you know, a royalty rate keeps going out depending on copies sold.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's not always something that we can get for all formats. And I think it should be a thing for all formats. So it doesn't matter if it's a mass market paperback, it doesn't matter if it's an audiobook. It doesn't matter, like higher royalties to authors. Because that would be really awesome.

[B]

Yeah, that's a great one. Next one on my list is publishing employees getting more on the job training. And this actually dovetails with another one of my ideas. But I feel like, like, for example, things such as marketing constantly evolve. And there's also a lot of publishing employees who work in certain departments that maybe didn't go to school for that department, like marketing. Right. Because a lot of people who do marketing degrees go and, you know, work at corporations on the marketing side. And a lot of publishing employees just come from more liberal arts backgrounds. And so we're all kind of these like liberal arts people trying to do marketing. And so I would love it if ever so many years, for example, people in the marketing department had to go back to do some extra training on the latest stuff about algorithms and social media and just feeling like there's this ability to kind of like upskill constantly. Because sometimes I worry in publishing where we just assume that the younger generation is going to know more about tech and social media or marketing, and we rely on those younger generations to kind of fill those gaps. Whereas I really wish we could upskill mid level, like marketing employees, you know, just to kind of up our game. Because I worry that publishing, as I said, just relies on the younger generation doing all of the things that we're really. We should be upskilling mid level employees to be doing.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, that would be. Oh my God, so awesome. I'm sure if there are any publishing employees listening to this, they're like, yes, please sign me up. Something else I'd really like. Oh, I know. Something that really annoys me. There's always so many things that really annoy me.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

A publisher makes an offer, right. And let's say whatever goes to auction. You pick a winner. You're like, I will accept this offer. Let's say the offer is for. I'm just gonna throw a random number out here. $300,000 advance, okay? Now, that advance, as you guys know, is paid in installments, okay? That advance, as soon as the offer is accepted, should go to an escrow account where it will be earning interest for the author, okay? And while we are negotiating the contract, a process which can take several months, okay? And the author is not getting their first installment because the first installment is paid on signing of the contract. That money is earning interest for the author. That money is not sitting around in the publisher's budget, okay? Because this actually creates an incentive for publishers to drag their feet on the contract stage. I'm not saying that it's happening maliciously, okay? But I am saying that if there was an escrow account situation, I'm pretty sure things would move a little faster. It's just a theory. And if anyone thinks it wouldn't, great, prove me wrong. Put it in escrow. Let's see if it doesn't move faster. I'll be so happy to be wrong. Yeah, that's me. Advanced money stays in escrow.

[B]

I. You've mentioned that before, and I've always been like, yes, applause, applause. I think that's such a good one. I love that idea. Okay, the last one that I wrote down, and obviously we could probably talk about this for another two hours, but the last one I wrote down today was. And this kind of dovetails with what I was saying on my last one, which this. This one is editors getting contracts, training. And really, this is about the idea that everything in publishing is so, like, departmentally separated and there are very few publishers where it really feels mult. Disciplinary, where everybody understands what everybody's job is. And I know theoretically, of course, everybody understands. But for example, with editors learning more about contracts is that when agents are trying to negotiate with them, I think it can go. I think it would be able to go smoother. And it does. I should say, I think it does go smoother with editors that understand more about contracts and understand why they're saying the way the things that they're saying and why I'm saying the way the things that I'm saying so that we can figure out a. A way to meet in the middle. Or if I'm asking for something they don't understand, it's not like. No. Because they don't understand. It's. It's that, oh, now they can figure out how to approach this with their internal system so that we can give the team what they want. So some of it is Carly always is right and always wants what she wants. So then she's. She thinks that editors and contracts people should give her whatever she wants. But some of this is also. I feel like I come up against a lot of editors that don't have a lot of contracts, training, and they just don't understand why I'm asking for the things that I'm asking for. Or they'll say, oh, yeah, you'll deal with at the contract stage. And then I get to the contract backstage, and they're like, well, this should have been a deal point. And I'm like, well, the editor, you know, kind of dropped the ball on that for me. So that's when I get frustrated about editors not knowing much as much about contracts as I think that they should be. And so if there are any kind of assistant editors listening to this, like, please head over to your contracts department, try to get some extra training or just kind of, you know, suggest to the team that's something that you'd like to learn more about. Because I think you'll make you better at your job. I just truly do. Because agents will be. You'll be able to speak a language with agents that will help everybody 100%.

[C]

100%. I love that idea. Another thing I would love to change. Magic wand. Where's my wand? Hello. Wand is. Okay, I'm just gonna say this. There's this insistence that audio is included whenever you sell a book, right? Especially for the major publishers. And that is nonsense. Audio is a lucrative format, and publishers are not paying more, you know, by grabbing those rights. And actually, the PRH trial, you know, when they tried to buy Simon and Schuster, revealed some problematic origins to this practice. Problematic origins that would suggest collusion on the part of publishers, which all agents already suspected. But it did feel validating to hear. If you look up the PRH trial and, you know, just people who wrote about it, it's a really interesting part of that. Audio is a way for authors to make more money, right? And so I. I don't love the idea that publishers are necessarily going to get those rights. In some cases it might make sense, but then they have to pay more. In other cases, it doesn't make sense. You know, there are audio publishers out there who might do a better job, might be more specialized in that, and I feel like that's just something that shouldn't be seen as included. That being said, you know, Carly, because I know you went through your list and of course we could talk about it till tomorrow, but we will stop. I feel like all the things we're saying, all of them come down to one very specific change that we need to see, which is more publishers. If we had more major publishers, like real contenders, people, money. Exactly right. Like, so many of these issues would be fixed. Not all of them, but a lot of them would. Publishing is an oligopsony, which is a market with very, very, very few buyers and a lot of sellers. I don't want there to be fewer sellers because sellers are writers. So I certainly don't want to mess with that. But I would like to see more buyers. I would like publishing to not be an oligopsony, especially because saying this word is annoying. It's a difficult word to say. So I To. Would like, like to stop saying it, please. And yeah, I. At the end of the day, all this unfairness stems from the fact that there's a lot of people who want to break in and not a lot of people buying these projects. So it's unfair and it's annoying and I don't like it. But if we had more competition, a lot of things would naturally be fixed.

[B]

Absolutely. I definitely agree with that. That's a good point to land on. Thanks for summarizing that for us. Okay, now I want to tell you guys about what's going to be in your substack tomorrow. So if you are paid subscribers, tomorrow is Tuesday. I assume that all of you listen to this on the day it comes out, which is Monday. So Tuesday it comes out, and we got some great stuff for you. So we kick off with an awesome essay called how to Know where to Start yout Story by Larissa Pham, author of Discipline, who begins by saying, every piece of writing really has two timelines. The chronology of the work as it reads from the first sentence to the last, and the chronology of the events that the text text covers almost 100% of the time. These timelines aren't the same. She goes on to ask an excellent question. For me, the key question is, when do decisions begin to matter for the reader? Or another way of putting it, at what point do your character's choices start to have real stakes? So that's a great piece. I'm looking forward to tomorrow. Really?

[C]

Oh, my gosh, this sounds amazing. A must read for sure. We also have Malcolm Kempt, author of A Gift Before Dying, dropping all the truth bombs you can. Guys know I love truth bombs. As he discusses the detrimental impact of social media on aspiring author's productivity. And yeah, I feel like since it's the month for turning over new leaves, you might want to seriously consider what he has to say. I know I'll be considering it because social media is just one of those things where love it and hate it at the same time. Very complicated.

[B]

Then we have an interesting follow up piece from Alyssa Schoonmail, author of Such Sheltered Lives, who writes a follow up essay from Friday, Friday's edition about changing voice and changing genre. She said, when I first got the idea for my new novels, Such Sheltered Lives, I found myself torn between two different approaches to the story, one for adult readers, one for teens. In fact, I wrote two version 2 versions of the book's opening chapters before I made up my mind about which genre this book would be. The interesting thing wasn't how the two versions were different, but how similar. To show you what she means, Alyssa gives you the two versions of the same scene from chapter three of the novel. The first chapter that's narrated by Florence. First from the finished novel in which Florence is nearly 40 years old, and then from an imagined version of the novel which Florence is 16. In both, Florence is on her way to Russia's recovery for the first time, having been sent away to rehab after a violent run in with another pop star. So if you're playing around with genre or pov, you definitely don't want to miss this one.

[C]

That sounds really interesting. I cannot wait to read both versions of that. Love that. Finally we have Rachel Sarna, former journalist and two time TEDx speaker with a very excellent, very well researched essay about sustainability and the Big five publisher who Does It Best? This is like who Wore It Best but with sustainability and publisher. So this is way more fun. So let's take a bet on which publisher will do a better job. Let's take a bet.

[B]

I've actually I've seen the essay so I'm not gonna bet. But you guys enjoy this one. It's a really great piece. Okay, the next the Instagram that I wanted to talk about was from Matt Haig and his handle is M A T T Z H A I G. You probably all know him, he's incredible advocate for mental health, talks about his own mental health journeys. Obviously he's an author of incredible books like the Midnight Library. So the post that he posted was just, it came out on Tuesday, January 13th. The kind of COVID of the Carousel is the side of being published I was never warned about. And then he goes through to share on the different side slides, basically. I guess that's what you call them in Instagram, in the carousel. Just like really mean headlines like one of them from the Spectator. The banality of Matt Haig. Something else. The Midnight Library is problematic in A post. Roe vs. Wade Society. The Guardian. Matt Haig. I've never written a book that will be more spoofed or hated. Just kind of talking about the hate and just every. All of the kind of negativity that he got online after being like such a successful author and his work being contextualized in a way that it was never meant to be read. Anyway, I just. One of the reasons I wanted to share this post was that like Matt Haig is so beloved. You know, everybody loves the Midnight Library that I've encountered at least. So yeah, he just kind of in his, in his caption he says, someone asked me why I don't write as much as I used to. Fair question. I used to write three books a year and now I write write three books a decade. The answer is 2021. The Midnight Library should have felt great. And I have guilt that I wasn't grateful for its success. The slides are the tiniest tip of the iceberg. There was more positive than negative, but the negative was intense and landed just when I had every dream fulfilled. Around three weeks into 2021, my publisher reckons that the Midnight Library was the best selling novel in the world it was within. And shortly after that period I experienced negativity to a level I had never known. I was used to bad reviews. I'd had thousands. I often agreed. But I was less used to personal hit pieces in the media directed at me for monetizing mental health. I wasn't used to being accused of plagiarism by an unpublished writer and about 20 separate blog posts stating a conspiracy theory that my agent Claire, along with other agents deliberately exploits women writers by setting their work for males to steal. That gained so much traction there had to be investigation lawyers. I didn't realize that featuring in Megan Markle's Vogue edition would lead to articles about me in the Mail and Express and other White Rangers press. I didn't realize a friend would lie about the nature of that friendship and imply to someone I'd sent unsolicited messages. I didn't know that someone would accuse me of hiding a secret love child of an A lister. So anyway, it goes on and on. Not too much longer. But yeah, I just kind of said about how much landed on him. And so with that exposure and success and like just the amount of negativity and somebody that's so vocal about mental health. I just thought that was really great podcast. So, anyway, cece, your thoughts?

[C]

I. I mean, I'll admit. I'll start by admitting a very embarrassing thought, which is, I did not know about this until you shared it with me. Like, I obviously heard of the Midnight Librarian, Matt, but I did not know that there was this. You were reading from the caption, and I'm like, what? People did what they accused him of? What? Hiding a child? What? Like, I did not know about this until I read the post, which you shared. I don't know what to say other than this seems tragic and sounds terrible, and, I don't know, it's. Our world is messed up in many ways when it comes to this stuff. It's actually something that we talk about a lot, just agents amongst ourselves. And with writers, this idea that once you break out, you become really big. And for so many authors, that's. That's realizing a dream. Not necessarily the fame part. I know a lot of writers who wouldn't want the fame, but they want the fame of the book. But the thing is, people always want to know about the person behind the book, which fair, very fair. But then it comes with so much potential for hurt. I don't know. The Internet has become a massive version of the old town square where people were suffering, and it's just really hard to see. I didn't know about it, though. I didn't know. And it's deeply embarrassing, and it just shows. I'm one of those people who. There's so many things that everyone knows about that I've never heard about it because I'm in my little, like, Lala Sisi land, living with my books inside my head and my stories inside my head, and I just don't know about these things. So thank God for you to tell me about things.

[B]

Yeah, I just thought, you know, some people wonder, it's like, yeah, why isn't this author writing more? You know, they had this such big hit. Where did they go? And it's like, there's so much pressure that comes with being a successful author, and there's a lot of pressure that they feel on their shoulders. Also, writers are really, you know, know, sympathetic and empathetic people who, you know, feel a lot of feelings out loud, and so that intensity can hit them in a different way, and it can be really hard. So, anyway, sending lots of love to Matt Haig, who I think is really talented, and, yeah, I'm sure a Lot of us are really bummed about that amount of negativity and how that affected his creativity. Okay, so we had a question come in about agent guides. And so just so everybody can kind of get on the same page. So if you guys are on social media, you might have seen these. It's almost like a slide deck or a canvas thing where authors will do kind of like an agent guide to their book on social media where they'll kind of pin it maybe to the top of their page or they'll use it in a pitch contest. So just so everybody is kind of visualizing what I'm talking about, it just kind of imagine a static image that kind of encaptures things like what the characters look like or the tropes or the vibes. You probably know what I'm talking about. Okay, so the question is, what are your takes on queering writers posting agent guides to their book on social media? I heard anecdotes about this leading to agents reaching out to writers. But I also wonder if it could backfire. For example, if you've been querying for a while and an agent sees how long your agent guide has been up on social media, could they feel less excited about a project? And so I was thinking about this question when it came in, because Jane Friedman, you guys all know, because we talk about all the time, she actually covered this in one of her newsletter posts, and she asked for my opinion about this. And the framing was a bit slightly different about, like, why people are using these pitch decks and what they're for. But I just want to read you my answer that I wrote to Jane and then I will also answer the question. So my answer was, we have become a much more visual society, especially when it comes to socials. Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. So when these pitch contests and pitch decks happen, it's a natural evolution of the pitching process for visual elements to come into play. It is unique that these pitch decks are being used outside of social media and pitch context within the expectations that agents will make their way to the pitch deck from traditional querying. I recently offered rep to an author who queried me via the traditional method. And in their email signature had a link to a spot, Spotify playlist and a Pinterest page. I clicked on both. I didn't listen to the playlist, but I scrolled through the songs and board and got a sense of how they imagined their story coming to life through multiple sensory experiences. In some ways, it acts as a secondary gut check to see, you know, could I work with this person? And does their vision for the book align with mine through supplementary material? In the Pandemic, I experimented with pitching editors with an audio recording of me reading my pitch aloud and or recording video interviews with me and my clients that they could watch. I think we're always trying to find new ways to break through the noise, but the method of writing a really great book and pitching it well to the right people is always going to be the mainstay. So I do think it's a flash in the pan, per se, but I also think it's a rest stop in the evolution of how we pitch emotional reading experiences in 3D. I think this will continue, but not move the needle any more than a great book will. And so their question was, you know, basically, does this get an agent less excited with the timestamp? And so my answer to that is yes. I do think anything with a timestamp can potentially make something feel kind of quote unquote, stale. It's up to you to decide, you know, how much that matters to you. You can always, like, repin the post, but. Or delete the old post if you want to make it fresh. So I do think there's like a timestamp element to it for sure, but I would probably just be reposting it or link to a Spotify or link to a Pinterest page, like I said, as a way to kind of communicate that visualization. So anyway, that was my long winded answer of what I wrote for Jane Friedman.

[C]

Yeah, I think that what this, what this question brings up is, and it's something we've talked about before, just, you know, privately, us writers are hungry for agents. And oftentimes writers think to themselves there has to be a better way than the whole querying via the slush file thing. And if, if there is a better way, let me, let me explore that. Those paths, which is a totally valid thing to do. And that might be, I don't know, pitching contests. It might be going to a conference and trying to get, you know, a one on one experience. Not everyone can do that, obviously. Or it might be. And then, lo and behold, we have the agent guides. So obviously this depends on the agent. It does work because I have seen agents sign people via these guides. So I'm not saying it does not work. Please, please don't think I'm saying this to anyone listening, but I will say this. I feel strongly that the best way to grab an agent is to write a really, really, really amazing query, let even better pages and it like reinventing the wheel. It's just one of those things, you know, like, if you think about the way other storytelling form formats have evolved, like, Like a movie, like, think about a movie in. In the days of silent film, you know, like those. Those static images in black and white with, like, text underneath, like captions, and how that evolved into, like, color and then sound and like, nowadays we have these blockbuster productions with all like. My point is, when you. That kind of story, the tools to tell the story have evolved deeply over time. The tools to. To tell a story in a book. I'm picking up a book here. They are. The same tools are words. Yes. Picture books are a little different, but like, talking about these kinds of books, all the books I work on, we are talking about letters, Letters that make words, words that make words. There is no evolution in the tool. And I bring that up to say, because of this specific format, I don't think there's a lot of evolution either to the process of, like, pitching it. You know, it's not that you can't try new things. Carly, you tried the audio thing. That was really cool. I remember when you tried that. I remember you sharing it with me. It was awesome. I remember listening to one. It was great. It's not that you can't do these things, but at the end of the day, the best chances of success is going to be making sure your project is so, so compelling in the format that most agents are going to look, which is. Is reading it, not a visual pitch deck. Nothing wrong with a visual pitch deck. If that's what people want to do, they should absolutely do it. But I do think that sometimes, like, there's only so much attention we can pay to certain things. And I do think that sometimes the decision to do that is coming from a place of anxiety, of this querying thing isn't working. So I'm going to work on this other way to get an agent when really the thing that a lot of writers need to be doing is improving their project and product. There's a person, Carly, you know who I'm talking about. I'm not going to name her, who listens to the show. So person, you will see yourself identified in a second. We love her. She's a friend of the pod. She's amazing. She's so smart and talented, and she wants to pitch to us an idea of creating, like, Tinder for agents and authors, where essentially, like, it would be an app where agents would have a profile, authors would have a profile, and they could match kind of, like, we match on. On Bumble, on Tinder, on whatever. But obviously, like, not romantic. Guys, I'm not talking about romantic. And I remember telling her, with all the love in the world. Like, all the love in the world. I tried. Anyway, no agent wants this. I'll tell you why. There's a million reasons why, including the fact that, like, they have to follow their own agency guidelines, right? Like, we have a slush pile, a shared slush pile. This is just going to create confusion. But that's not the main reason why we don't want that. I'm not going to match with someone over a picture or a profile or vibes about their book that they're writing. I'm going to match with someone based on. On the book they wrote. That's.

[B]

That's.

[C]

That's first. That happens first. That happens first, second, and third and fourth is who you are. Who you are matters. Don't get me wrong. But you first fall in love with the story. So all these fancy things of apps and decks and all these, like, really cool things that, by the way, power, power to you for thinking outside the box, that will come in handy when promoting your book. They're typically not going to land you the agent of your dreams. And I don't think this is to burst anyone's bubble. I say this to kind of, like, hopefully empower you. Because the best way to land an agent, to write a fantastic query letter and fantastic first pages, because that will make us go, yes, please. I want to see the full.

[B]

It's really that simple. That's what it takes. So I totally agree. There's one last thing. I actually just added this to the list of things to talk about, Cece, so I'm totally springing this on you. So you know how we like to talk about.

[C]

Is it books?

[B]

It is, isn't it too.

[C]

It's you, Carly. Guys. Carly loves stats. Stats, data. Like. Like, it's not that I don't love it, but, like, oh, my God, this woman would have a love affair with stats and data. Your husband should watch out.

[B]

You know what? I love that somebody else does the math on it. I don't want to do the math. I don't want to crunch the numbers. I like the idea of the trends. So what I'm going to tell you guys is the category performances for 20, 2025. So we've talked about general sales numbers throughout the weeks and throughout the months. We're going to get more and more numbers from 2025. So you're going to hear me say different numbers all the time. And you're like, why is Carly always saying different numbers? Because they're just related to different things. So this is the category performances last year. So adult fiction was up 1%, 1 single percent. Science fiction up 22.1%. Graphic novels up 9.2%. Romance up 3.9%, which is actually, like, considering romance is, like, it's already high, that's another 3.9%. Suspense and thrillers down 2.2. Fantasy, and then fantasy was down 8.7. So science fiction up to 22.1. Fantasy down 8.7%.

[C]

But wait, wait, wait. Is romantasy in fantasy or Romantasy and romance?

[B]

I think that is something that we don't have the answer to based on these statistics. So I would.

[C]

Because If Romantasy is 18 in fantasy, then I would say it might sound. If it's in fantasy, even though it's supposedly down 8.7, then it's just. Because it was so up before. So it's not really sad down. But if it's in romance, then. If it's in romance, then it actually might explain why fantasy is down. Do you know what I'm saying?

[B]

I think the bisexual as well, because. Yeah, exactly. Like, we didn't have a place to maybe put all those biceps, and now people are, like, coding it properly. Do you know what I'm trying to say under romance? I do. Yeah. That's a theory. Okay.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

All right. Cece, do you want to read us the nonfiction that I sprung on you?

[C]

Okay, so nonfiction, overall, this is very sad, because both of us do nonfiction, down by 1.5%. Overall. Let's read the breakdown. Self help is up 14.7%, led by a very, very big book. Religion is up 5.4%. Business and economics down 3.9%. Biography, autobiography, and memoir down 7%. I wonder how much of this is actually because. Did we have, like, a huge, huge, huge memoir, celebrity memoir in 2025 because we had, like, spare the year before.

[B]

No, this wasn't a year of a big. Yeah, this wasn't a year of, like, the Obama type of memoir.

[C]

Yeah, I just feel like so much of. Of these. This up or down has to do with. And I do not like this about our industry, but has to do with, like, single titles. You know, I remember I was still in publishing school when I found out that, like, overall sales were low, were down, but because of Michelle Obama's becoming up. Because this one title, right. Like, and again, I was in school, so that was, like, very surprising to me at the time. Nowadays, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I already had all this. So I wonder, like, how much of that that has to do with, like, the celebrity members.

[B]

I think that's the accurate analysis. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

It's just an interpretation. Right. But, like, it's. We'll never know for sure, but it's just a theory. And then. Yeah. Do you want to read children's or we skip children's.

[B]

Sure. Yeah, we'll do some children's for you guys. I know we don't cover it a ton on the show, so. General Children's fiction, up 1.6%. Children's nonfiction, up 3.6%. YA fiction down 1.8. YA nonfiction up 3.8. So, as you can see, I mean, a lot of this is, you know, less than 10%, swings in either direction. Generally more up than down. Big winners, I would say, is science fiction and self help.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, thank you for sharing that.

[B]

I love.

[C]

I love your love affair with stats.

[B]

I just feel like, as you've talked about, like, there's so. There's a lack of transparency in the business. So there's something about the second I see stats, I'm like, I just want to gobble them all up. So thanks for hanging out with us this week, everybody. We will let you be on your way. Make sure you check out tomorrow's substack because there's lots of juicy stuff in there.

[C]

And send you again and send me good vibes that I continue holding these things. These things are very heavy. Like, I'm using both of these.

[B]

She's holding up a weight. Everybody who's listening and not watching, she's holding up her template.

[C]

It's a very big weight. It's very big.

[B]

Your legs can handle it. Your legs can handle it. Do squats with those.

[C]

I'm using my arms to hold it. What are you talking about? My legs? You hold weights with your legs. What?

[B]

I'm gonna end up scoring.

[C]

You hold your weight with one's legs.

[B]

I don't understand. With your hands, but beside your body. Okay, guys, I'm letting you go so you don't have to listen to this. Bye, everybody.

[A]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query Cece, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency. Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep Dive ever. Then the Beta Reader matchup is open once again, with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available, which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the Shit About Writing to find out more.