Shooting the Shit About Your Response to Last Week's Episode and What Can Be Copyrighted

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Shooting the Shit About Your Response to Last Week's Episode and What Can Be Copyrighted"

Podcast: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Hosts: Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra, Bianca Marais
Date: March 23, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the hosts’ candid reactions to listener feedback from a highly discussed previous episode, a lively breakdown of burnout and disillusionment in publishing, a myth-busting review of the London Book Fair, and a detailed update on a major copyright court ruling in the publishing world. The hosts share personal experiences, industry insight, and practical advice for emerging writers while maintaining their characteristic mix of honesty, empathy, and humor.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal & Professional Updates

• Carly’s Social Media Shift (03:37–07:17):

  • Carly shares she's feeling fatigued with Instagram and introduces her new Substack, "The Weekend Rant," for deeper dives and essay-style reflections.

  • Story of being duped by an AI-generated pirated book (Culpability) and how even seasoned professionals can get caught.

    “I, the person who talk about this all the time was completely duped by this.” — Carly (04:43)

  • CeCe praises Carly’s move to Substack, noting social media’s increasing sameness:

    “What I like is that it’s meaty... it’s becoming rarer these days. A point of view.” — CeCe (06:11)

• Announcement: Calgary Conference Coming Up (01:49–02:13)

  • The trio is set to appear together, with hopes for a live podcast recording.

2. Publishing Industry Stats Quiz (07:17–10:04)

• How Many People Are Actually Reading?

  • Carly quizzes CeCe: What percentage of American adults account for the majority of books read?

  • Answer: 19% of adults account for 82% of all books read.

  • Both admit it’s a sobering statistic but less dire than expected.

    “I tried so hard. And yet.” — CeCe (10:21)

3. Listener Responses: Editor Burnout & Disillusionment (11:24–26:30)

• Reddit Editor’s Anonymous “Venting” & Viral Reel

  • The hosts summarize an anonymous editor’s Reddit post about disillusionment with publishing (12:12).

  • Multiple comments from current/former editors echo themes of chronic underpay, burnout, and clout-driven culture.

    “...the fact of everyone, even your idols, being secretly miserable and disillusioned really resonates.” — Former Big 5 Editor, read by Carly (13:36)

• Hosts’ Reflections on Burnout & Industry Reality

  • CeCe questions whether everyone truly is “secretly disillusioned,” challenging the generalization (15:09).

  • Carly distinguishes between “tired from the work” and “tired of the work.”

  • Discussion of publishing’s slow pace, economic realities, and need for intrinsic motivation.

  • CeCe’s key advice: Know what you’re getting into before joining any industry—do your research!

    “When you apply for something, it’s important to do your own research and not show up as a blank canvas.” — CeCe (23:37)

• Standout Listener Quote

  • Carly shares a listener comment distinguishing creative burnout from disillusionment caused by market pressures:

    “Listing burnout first suggests the editor is tired from the work and not tired of the work. This is about the sacrifice artists have to make…” — Listener comment (27:13)

  • Carly: “Great distinction between tired from the work versus tired of the work. That’s a huge distinction.” (27:13)

4. Publishing Myths from the London Book Fair (29:35–39:36)

• Hosts review and expand on Substack: "The Honest Editor" by Phoebe Morgan, debunking common Book Fair myths:

  • Deals aren’t actually struck in whirlwind fashion at the Fair itself—timing and publicity are highly strategic.
  • Not all buzzed books become hits; not all deals are six figures (35:11–36:18).
  • You don’t have to be a celebrity to succeed; editors/agents at all career stages are involved in big deals (36:53).
  • Foreign rights deals are relationship-driven and rarely finalized on the spot.
  • Yes, there are glamorous parties—but work and substance drive the Fair (38:04–39:36).

  “At the granular level... they are substantially different, not substantially similar.” — Quoting Judge’s verdict (42:12)

  “Hot, sexy, dangerous boys central to virtually all YA romance novels cannot be copyrighted.” — Judge’s ruling (42:39)

5. Court Case Update: What Can Be Copyrighted? (40:36–43:14)

• Crave Series Copyright Lawsuit Concludes (40:49–43:14):
  • Overview of a significant copyright case between Tracy Wolff (Crave series) and Lyn Freeman (Blue Moon Rising).
  • Judge’s thorough review of both works led to a verdict: shared YA tropes and archetypes cannot be copyrighted; only unique creative expression can.
  • Hosts praise the judge’s due diligence and wrap with humor and relief (“Hot, sexy, dangerous protagonists cannot be copyrighted” — 42:39).

---

Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On Disillusionment:
  • “I don’t think that everyone is secretly disillusioned... I meet with a lot of people who have that fire inside them.” — CeCe (15:09)
• On Doing the Research Before Entering Publishing:
  • “I just think when you apply for something it’s important to do your own research and not show up as a blank canvas.” — CeCe (23:37)
• On Publishing’s Economic Realities:
  • “People that are really good at those other jobs... could be paid 20 to 100% more in another industry.” — Carly (17:16)
• On Book Fair Myths:
  • “It’s so slow. People time the announcement to get maximum buzz...” — CeCe (30:09)
• Case Law Wisdom:
  • “Hot, sexy, dangerous boys central to virtually all YA romance novels cannot be copyrighted.” — Court judgment, read by Carly (42:39)
• On Community:
  • “There’s something about book people. Book people have a different energy.” — CeCe (39:36)

---

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Carly on leaving Instagram/launching a Substack: 03:37–07:17
• The stats quiz: 07:17–10:04
• Listener feedback on burnout and industry reality: 11:24–26:30
• Mythbusting London Book Fair: 29:35–39:36
• Crave copyright verdict & legal breakdown: 40:36–43:14

---

Overall Tone & Takeaways

The episode is equal parts vulnerable, witty, and deeply informative, mixing frank industry talk with clear-eyed encouragement and community spirit. The hosts validate readers’ and writers’ anxieties, while reaffirming the value of personal research, perseverance, and perspective in the publishing world. Their mutual respect, honest disagreement, and camaraderie make for a session that is both educational and reassuring for anyone hoping to thrive in publishing.

---

Transcript

[Bianca Marae]

Hi, everyone. I'm going to keep this short because I know how busy you are. I just wanted to let you know that the next beta reader matchup is almost upon us. Submit your 3,000 words by 12pm Eastern Time on the 1st of April and you will get your beta reader matchup emails on 2nd April. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com

[Carly Waters]

welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. Hi, Cece, how are you doing today? Good.

[Cece Lira]

Busy and good. How about you? Busy and good too.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I'm in the middle of an offer, so I was just like throwing things together for this call, working on that. You know, just stay in the life of an agent, life of a showgirl, as Taylor Swift would say. So we're just, we're plugging along. I don't know how long this episode's going to be today because both of us have to get back to work. So we will do our very best to jam as much as we can.

[Cece Lira]

We will. And it's nice to have a break and chat. Like, it's nice to have this. Even though, again, whether it's an offer, whether it's a contract, whether it's organizing calls with interested parties, whatever it is that we're doing, it's. It's nice to be like, okay, 45 minute break to chat.

[Carly Waters]

Yes, yes, exactly. And you know, one of the things I love about doing this is it keeps me up on publishing news because I'm always like, what do I need to know to chat about with CC or update the audience? I enjoy that part of it. I enjoy talking to you since we don't work together anymore and I get to see you on a weekly basis, which is good.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, that's fun.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Okay.

[Carly Waters]

Things that are going on. So we announced the Calgary conference, so you guys all know where to see us when words collide.org you can grab your tickets. We'll be in Calgary August 13th to 16th and we're very excited to see you guys in person. So we hope that we will meet you in person and see you there.

[Cece Lira]

It'll be so much fun. Like it's our first conference, the three of us together, like so excited. First of many, I hope.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, exactly. And the organizers think that they have the tech abilities to Record it as a live podcast. So we'll be able to kind of share it later with everybody. So, yeah, fingers crossed all the tech wizards and tech ghosts support us that day because we thought at the start of this call we were gonna have some tech ghosts. But CC battled the tech ghosts and came back and all was well.

[Cece Lira]

I always offer the tech ghost a cookie. Like, if I give you a cookie, will you stop haunting me? Like, come on, tech ghost.

[Carly Waters]

Anyway, yes, okay, I have an update. Personal slash professional, I guess, which is I've like slightly fallen out of love with Instagram a teensy tiny bit. Because there's sometimes when I. I have found Instagram such a great medium over the last 5ish years, or, you know, I've actually been like professionalizing it probably for 10 years. But I do, I've enjoyed it. Right? There's like the visual element, the storytelling element. We can do the stories, we can do the carousels. I'm just lately finding, like, when I have something to say, I'm not thinking like, oh, I can't wait to figure out how to put this on Instagram. I don't know if that makes sense at all. But like, the carous, it's clunky sometimes stories like, who knows how many people are even going to see this reels again? People might not have their volume on or, you know, it might not go to them. So I launched a substack. Completely out of the blue is what I decided to do. Because I used to have this series on Instagram that I used to do on the weekends when it was like anything that's on my mind. I would call it the weekend rant. And I would rant like in my Instagram stories, kind of like essay style of, you know, whatever was on my mind. So I had ranted about why I think everybody should break up with their smartwatches. I've ranted about sports betting. Like, I just pick topics that are on my mind called Truly and rant about them. But yeah, I'm just kind of feeling fatigued by Instagram. So I started a substack, which. And I called it the Weekend Rant. So if you guys want to come and hang out on the weekend, I'm going to post one to two essay style things that are on my mind on the weekends. And I launched two already this past weekend. One was about the memoir Strangers, which you and I talked about on the show. And I think one of the things that's great about Substack is it's writing is such a way to process your thoughts. And I love talking about things with you on the show, but it is often like, you know, I don't always know how to put all my thoughts together verbally all the time, but the writing, you know, you can kind of process it, tag things, link things together that you're thinking about. So. So I wrote about strangers and how I connected it to kind of lots of different things that I was thinking about. And then I wrote a story about Cece. I don't know if you saw this. I don't know if you've seen my. My substack yet. I got duped by an AI pirated book. Did I tell you so?

[Cece Lira]

For real.

[Carly Waters]

For real. And I wrote about this in my substack because I tried to buy Culpability, the novel Culpability. I tried to buy it on Amazon. I was like, absentmindedly, just, like, tried to buy it on Instagram. The book that showed up was a pirated AI slop physical pod print on demand book. And so I write about it in my stub stack about, like, I, the person who talk about this all the time was completely duped by this. And I link it to, you know, things I'm thinking about with, like, the Mirror World and, you know, and Naomi's book Doppelganger. And anyway, I just, I connected it to a bunch of dots and things that I was thinking about because culpability is about AI. So it's just like, so ironic that I got duped by a pirated AI slot version of culpability when I was trying to read the real book. So anyway, that was my second substack, so meta.

[Cece Lira]

Like what?

[Carly Waters]

Like. And that's why. That's why, like, I really. I had to write about it. So come hang out with me. It's called the Weekend Rant. So it's the weekendrant.substack.com. it's obviously linked to it, all my socials. So come hang out and, and let me know about what you think about me being completely duped by AI. And I needed to write about it. And the best part is Bruce found my article. Bruce, the author of Culpability commented, like, da, da, da, da. And I was like, Bruce is the real Bruce. And then he commented, he's like, how do you know it's the real Bruce? So. So great things are happening in the comments over on my Weekend Rant substack as well.

[Cece Lira]

I like that I will be subscribing because I'm excited to know what your weekend rants are I definitely read your weekend rants on Instagram. I agree it's not the best medium for long form, but I don't know. I'm not. I'm not a stories watcher at all. I am using. I don't know what's happening on Instagram. Again, I. I do not have a relationship with social media that a lot of people do. Like, like the whole. I have to forget it exists sometimes. Even though I post often, I literally forget it exists. I love that for you, I never missed a rant. No, I never missed a rant from yours. Because. Because I like. What I like is that it's meaty. Like there's actual thought that went behind it. And I find that more and more takes on Instagram, this is a generalized comment, of course. Right. But all conversation involves some form of generalization. But more and more takes, they're just. I'm not using empty as a mean word. I'm just using, like, I've heard it before, you know, like, it's. It's. It's the same thing I've heard before, and there's nothing wrong with it. You know, it's okay for people to say the same thing, but when comes to me consuming content, I kind of don't want to hear the same thing over and over again. You know, I want to hear entirely individualized perspective. I want someone's point of view. It's becoming rarer these days. A point of view, not necessarily ones that I agree with. I like. I like hearing it all. Or even things that I didn't even think of. That's interesting too. So I will be subscribing the weekend rant. It's a good name.

[Carly Waters]

Thank you. Thank you. It was time. It was time to put those thoughts somewhere. All right, my next thing up for you is you asked the question a couple weeks ago, and then we kind of both answered the question, which is our. We usually usually do some sort of stats question or numbers related question or something to quiz each other on. So I have prepared a question for you today, Cece. Okay. Okay. So it's kind of like a Mad Lib. So you're gonna fill in the blanks. Okay.

[Cece Lira]

Okay.

[Carly Waters]

So I'm gonna read it out loud a couple times.

[Cece Lira]

Okay.

[Carly Waters]

Okay. So everybody who, you know is listening along, if you're in the car or, you know, wherever you are, if you want to sit down, pause this and come back to it. But we're gonna do, you know, a

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

stats question, which will be very fun.

[Carly Waters]

So here we go. Just blank Percentage of American adults account for. Blank. Percentage of all books read in the US So what percentage of American adults account for what percentage of books read in the US Is it going to depress me?

[Cece Lira]

Is it going to depress me? I can tell by, I mean, probably. No, no, no. There was a micro expression there. There was a micro expression there. It's going to depress me. It's like the billionaire question. Just X percent of billionaires account for X percent of. Yeah, okay.

[Carly Waters]

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cece Lira]

For people. Yeah, totally. Okay.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Okay. It's gonna depress me. The question is, how much is it gonna depress me? Okay. Is it like 1% and is it super depressing or is it like 10? No, no, no, don't tell me. Okay. I, I have been trying to step into optimism. It's true. I've been trying.

[Carly Waters]

I love this for you.

[Cece Lira]

More optimistic within. Within CC Land. Okay. Within CC Universe. Like, I'm still going to be me. That's just how it works. But I've been trying to get in touch with the optimistic CC that must live inside me. Like she must, she must, she must. She should. So I will not say 1% because that's where my mind is. My mind is like, it's probably something like 1%, maybe even less. I will say 5% account for. And it's just adult. Or is it, it's an adult.

[Carly Waters]

It's kids in the U.S. adults and us. Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Okay. Okay. So we're not talking about kids books, because that's another thing too. 50. I don't know. I, I, I wanted to say 90, but the optimist in me is going to say 50. Like 5% for 50.

[Carly Waters]

So your two numbers are what? Your two number percent of American adults.

[Cece Lira]

5% of American adults account for 50% of all books read in the U.S. again, pessimist in me wants to say 1 and then, and then 90, but I'm not, I'm not. I'm going to be an optimist.

[Carly Waters]

I have good news and bad news for you, which is you're still on the negative side. So it is 19%. So 1 9. 19% of American adults account for 82% of all books read. So that 82 is doing a lot of work there. So 19% of American adults account for 22%. And the source for this is the U.gov American government website.

[Cece Lira]

Interesting. 20 account for 80. Okay. Okay. I think proportionately I'm gonna have to do the cross multiplication to find out, but I think proportionally it's not, I Don't know. I'll figure it out. But, yeah, this is me. This is what you get for trying to be an optimist.

[Carly Waters]

You tried so hard. And yet.

[Cece Lira]

I did. I tried so hard. So hard.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Oh, you're adorable.

[Carly Waters]

Okay, so a few things I want to talk about today. We obviously always feature a substack of some kind, obviously other than my own. So we have a substack to talk about. We have a judgment on a court case that you guys might have been following. That's kind of very intense. And then I really wanted to make sure we spent some time unpacking some of the comments that we got on last week's episode reel. So we're actually recording a day earlier than usual because our lives are very busy and it's March break and my kids are off. So, you know, obviously not all of you have had time to listen to last week's episode, but right away on Instagram, we got so many comments. I mean, I think we're in the hundreds, plural comments. There's over 30,000 views on that reel. So this is the time to kind of make sure. If you haven't listened to that episode, go back and listen to it or, you know, pause it for later. But do you want to give a summary, cc, of what the contentious issue was that everybody is up in arms about on Instagram? Yeah. Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

So Carly sent me a screenshot of an editor. This is an anonymous person who posted on Reddit, essentially discussing how, like, venting. Venting about how he feels. This. Well, I don't know if it's a he or she. We don't know. This person, this human, feels disillusioned with. With publishing, and it is very vulnerable, and it's hard to listen to. It was really, really hard to listen to as you were reading it, Carly. I remember being like, part of me wanted to hug him, part of me wanted to ask questions. I keep saying him. Like, I don't even think. Statistically speaking, it's probably a woman. There's more women in publishing. But, yeah, it was a difficult. A difficult vent to read about. You know, how publishing is broken, essentially. Like, if you had to summarize it in a word, broken.

[Carly Waters]

That's.

[Cece Lira]

That's what it sounded like. You know, broken system, broken person saying that, you know, they should have gone into law or medicine. Hard to disagree on the law. I wonder why. Yeah. You know, how. How it's. You can always tell. I think someone's. Someone's mood has so much to do with how much of the future are you looking to? And how much of the past are you looking to? And how much of the present are you looking to? And this person seemed to be very, very disillusioned about the future and very, very sad about the past, which. Which made me very sad to hear. Yeah.

[Carly Waters]

And so, you know, a snippet of the episode that we recorded was shared on Instagram from our lovely social team. And so. And obviously on, you know, the YouTube comments were very active as well. So I'm just pulling everything up so we can kind of chat about it a little bit, because there was a huge kind of mix of, you know, feedback. A lot of writers were very kind of just like, upset by it, disillusioned by it, feeling like, you know, wow, that shocked me. And then there's a bunch of people that were like, that didn't surprise me. You know, maybe if you're really plugged into the publishing world, that shouldn't be surprising to you or, you know, wouldn't be surprising to you. There was also some editors that chimed in and said, like, I echo, you know, everything that's been said, and, you know, there's a lot of reasons why this is probably true. Some people said, you know, obviously this is. This is Reddit and we really have to take it with a grain of salt, which I completely agree. And I preface my. My recording of that, saying that for sure.

[Cece Lira]

So one of the.

[Carly Waters]

One of the comments that got 23 likes was from a former editor, a former Big 5 editor. So I'm going to read it to you guys. I was an editor for over a decade, worked at three major imprints across two Big Fives. Hearing this reminds me of one of the multiple reasons I left trading. I looked up at the editors I admire, who had better titles and salaries than I did, who I imagined commanded more respect and autonomy, and they were still toiling, burnt out, and often bitter. The goalpost was always moving, and when I asked myself how much money it would take to keep me going in that slog, it. It was an amount that was completely laughable and unrealistic for the industry. Going to publishing parties made me depressed because I became hyper aware of how much the industry is fueled by clout, perception, and striving for a romanticized version of the House of Con days that maybe never existed and are certainly long gone if they did. Some much, much older editors seem to really have made it, but when they retired, the door would close behind them. That promise of prestige and meaning with an office and the kind of money that you need to buy a place in New York evaporated. I don't necessarily have the same specific gripes as this commenter, but rather the fact of everyone, even your idols, being secretly miserable and disillusioned really resonates. And I think that's like a huge underpinning of the. The theme here, which is everybody can have different grievances, of course, but people do feel really burnt out. And I remember in Covid, the AALA put together or was planning on. I don't know if they ever did. They're planning on putting out a burnt. Putting together like a burnout subcommittee. I was like, I don't even know if the subcommittee even got off the ground because who had the time to put together a committee about burnout when we're all spread a little bit thin? So I don't know. Cece, was there any comments that stood out to you?

[Cece Lira]

Do you think that. So in the comment you just read, I'm going to butcher it because it's not in front of me. But do you think that everyone is secretly disillusioned? I don't mean everyone literally. Right. But like, do you think most people are? Because I'm asking. Because I don't. Either people are very good at lying to me, or I actually meet with a lot of people who I think have that fire inside them and love this industry so much. And they see the bad. It's not that they romanticizing it, they're not idealizing it, but they see the bad, they see the problematic, they see all the issues that come with it, but they still, they still have that drive and that passion and that story forwardness that I feel. Personally, I don't consider myself disillusioned with this industry at all. I see so many of its problems and I think that so much of it needs to change. And there are so many systemic issues, but the good still outweighs the bad. Bad for me. And please, if. If the lovely editor is hearing this, I do not mean to invalidate you in any way because, like, feelings, right? Like, we're all sharing feelings. But I don't know, like the comment you just read. I don't think that everyone is secretly disillusioned or if they are, they are very good at hiding it.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, I mean, if I had to give a number. Disillusion is such an interesting word because I think by like five to 10 years in, your eyes are wide open. Like, you see, you should have seen it all in terms of the good and the. So when you're in Those early stages of your career you might. Obviously everybody's a bit more like bright eyed and bushy tailed, which makes perfect sense. Between years 5 and 10, your eyes should be wide open. And that's often when people leave because they figured out it's not what they thought it was. Or the goal of being an editor actually isn't very much editing at all. It's a lot of project management. So that's kind of the piece where, you know, people will leave once people have made it past that 10, 15, obviously 20 year mark. Like you're kind of staying like you built your entire foundation of your career doing this job. I think one of really, really hard. I know we've been really focused on editors here in the editorial role. There's a lot of other jobs in publishing. There's the marketing, publicity, design, production. And I think one of the things that's really hard that I witness is that there can be people that are really good at those other jobs and if they go to another industry, they could be paid 20 to 100% more, you know what I mean? In another industry doing that exact same job. And that's what's hard to keep really good people in those other jobs. Because editor, book editor is a very specific job. Right. You are editing books. You can't do that in another industry because this is the book editing world, this is the book world. But you can do design, project management, rights management, like you can do a lot of other things in other industries. And I get really sad when I think about how many people we lose in the other departments who are really quick on their feet. Just because I know that other, you know, finance and other industries say them more.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, I also wonder how much of this has to do with like, we all know that publishing moves at a very slow pace. So by the time, you know, a book comes out, so many years have gone by from the first time you acquired it. And we also know that publishing operates on a venture venture capital model where only a few books actually make it. A ton of books are published and publishers expect only a small percentage of those books to actually break out and actually become the cash cows that will pay for everything else. Because of these two realities, the economic model and the timeline, it means that you have to wait a long time before you see results, good or bad, before you know whether you've made it. And I'm not saying that's a good way to think about it than making it, but a lot of people do. It's emotions. And so because of that you invest a lot of time in your career to then find out if you, if you chose one of the books that are going to make it or not, and if you happen to have chosen these books, and to a degree it is a lottery system, then you feel validation and that might give you enough fuel to keep going. Like it or not, human beings need validation. And a huge part of being in this industry as writer, as an agent, as an editor, as a publicist, it doesn't matter, is finding ways to get that fuel. And you can't look for that fuel in the wrong places. And I just wonder, you know, these editors, like at the end of the day it's really hard because you have to wait so long to find out if you're on the right track or not. And when you do, you've invested years into your career and it's not different for agents at all. The different part about agents is that you get to pivot so so much more quickly in terms of like, I want to rep this genre now. I want to do this, I want to, like, there's just so much more flexibility because our jobs are entrepreneurial. Our jobs are also way more high risk. You know, we're not getting steady pay, we're not getting salaries. Most agents only make commission, which means that for the first couple years of their agenting, they're often making $0 because it takes a while for you to sell your first book. So, yeah, I don't know, I wonder how much of this has to do with this, this, this, this part of this industry, this piece of the industry. And I think a lot too depends on like how bright eyed you were when you joined. I, I remember this clear. I remember this so well. I was, I went back to school for publishing. I was the only person in my mid-30s among a whole bunch of 20 year olds. I shouldn't say the only person, other people who were actually older than me who were lovely. But everyone in class was like 22, you know, or maybe 25. And I remember at the end of the program, someone, a very smart person, very smart person raising her hand and being like, I'm just really surprised by the salaries, you know, like I didn't expect the salaries to be xyz. And I remember asking her, I hope with all the love in the world, before you went into debt and signed up for this course, did you not look up the salaries? And I'm saying this with love, like before you join an industry or even like pursue an education to potentially join an industry like you should look at the sub.

[Carly Waters]

What was the answer? They didn't look it up.

[Cece Lira]

No, they didn't. They didn't. And. But here's the thing. Most people in class had not. She was like, most of them did. Most people had not.

[Carly Waters]

Okay, most people. I did a publishing postgrad program, so I did a master's in publishing, and I did it in the uk and so I sent off my application whenever that would have been, right the winter of my fourth year of university. And I remember hearing back from the program coordinator, and she was like, she wanted to set up a call. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm getting a call. Like, I was, hopefully, this is, you know, the next steps to, you know, getting accepted into this program. And I remember vividly on the phone, she explained, she's like, you're an international student. This course will cost tens of thousands of dollars. I don't even remember how much it was, sadly, at this point of so many years ago. And I'm so old at this point, but so she's like, it will cost this much for an international student, and this is what the starting salary looks like in publishing. And she walked, like. And I'm assuming all the other international students, she called and she walked us all through it. And I give her so much credit for that because, like, there's a moral response, that's a moral responsibility for those program coordinators to, you know, accept students, make promises, per se. I mean, nobody's saying they're going to get you a job, but the goal is to get us a job. That's the whole point. So, yeah, I give her a lot of credit for that. I remember at the time just being like, I just. And, you know, I'm that type of person where I'm like, oh, I'm going to be the exception. I don't care. Like, you can tell me whatever you're going to tell me. Like, I just know in my heart of hearts, I will be the exception. And that's fine. The audacity of me at 21. And however, yeah, you need audacity to make it.

[Cece Lira]

Like, thank God you had audacity. If you didn't, you wouldn't be here, you know?

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

So I love that she did that, and I 100% agree with you that there's a moral responsibility to do that. At the same time, I also think that this is about locus of control. I think that the people who make it in any industry have a locus of control where they turn inward for answers. You can Google salaries. I love that she said that to you. And 100. She should, I'm not saying she shouldn't and other program coordinators shouldn't, but we do live in a world where information is quite accessible. Like if you are a publishing professional, any professional, you should be looking up salaries, the stats, how many jobs.

[Carly Waters]

I don't even think Glassdoor existed when I was like, this is, this would have been 2008.

[Cece Lira]

Okay, like what I did, it did, you know, because I, when I went back to school for my postgrad program, it 100% existed. I know it did because it existed when I was a lawyer and that was before. So like you can, you can find out. And I know it was harder in 2008, but you could still, like, it's still there was still the Internet.

[Carly Waters]

Yes. You know, yes. Like you, I am not from the dinosaur stone ages.

[Cece Lira]

I just, I just think that when you, when you apply for something, it's important to do your own research and not show up. Like, you're not showing up as a blank canvas. You're not showing up like, now teach me. You need to have done the work so that you, you, you come sufficiently prepared to ask smart questions and to know whether you have, if you have the conditions to even make it. Again, I am not trying to say it's on people to do all the research and education should not be available. Of course not. But part of it is doing your own research. We see this when people reach, reach out to us, right? Like we've talked about some of our questions too. Like sometimes people reach, they're like, what is the difference between genre A and genre B? And I'm like, hun, you can Google this, you can Google this, you can, you can do your own research. Ask me a question that you've put more thought into, you know, because there are questions that you should be, should be able to ask publishing professionals, but, but not something so basic. So this is all my way of saying, because we were talking about the venting session, how much of the disillusionment, however, however many people, it does affect how much of it is coming from unrealistic expectations that you walked into. Because say what you will about me, I have fairy dust around me. I have rose colored glasses for a whole bunch of things.

[Carly Waters]

True.

[Cece Lira]

I am a deeply cynical person. I walked into publishing knowing exactly what it was, exactly how hard it was. I actually, if anything, thought it was even harder because I, I am not an optimist. I'm not, I am someone who, I look at Life. And I think, how can this go wrong? It used to make me a great lawyer. How could this go wrong is what lawyers do. We figure out all the ways things can go wrong, and then we try to prevent it and try and mitigate it and try to write a contract to protect people. Like, and I. I knew about this and I knew about it. And of course, the texture of it, I didn't know until I joined. Right. The specific texture, the specific nuances, for sure. But I knew how hard it was going to be, and I had no illusions, no illusions that it wouldn't. And one of the reasons why I never even tried to get a job as an acquiring editor, which I. Which probably I wouldn't have gotten anyway. Like, they were not hiring people in their mid-30s. Let's just be honest, but with no context. But one of the reasons why I didn't even try is because I didn't want the constraints of a big corporation behind me. Like, I didn't want that. I'm like, no, no, no. If I'm going to do this, if I'm going to start over in a career that's all about how much I love books, I want to have freedom. And being an agent, you get that freedom. You also get a ton of risk. But, yeah, that's.

[Carly Waters]

That. That. That's a story for another day.

[Cece Lira]

So, yeah, my head.

[Carly Waters]

That's a story for another day. But, yeah, I'm. I love how engaged you guys were in the Instagram reel. You know, I think we probably made a lot of people disillusioned in the comments, but I also got. I think that reel obviously made its way around the Internet in various capacities. But, yeah, I. Yeah, I guess I was just surprised at how many people were shocked by it. In some ways, maybe we don't do enough on this show to, like, say how hard this job, like, this career is.

[Cece Lira]

No, no, we do talk about how hard it is. No, no, we talk about how hard it is all the time. In fact, we've gotten lots of people reaching out to us to say, we get it. It's hard. Stop saying it. We do a great job. I'm sorry, but I'm gonna pat ourselves in the back now of telling you literally the name of the show, right? Like, the shit. No one tells you about everything. So, like, no, we do enough. I think it's more that the way this person, that editor, who we don't know who they are, the way they framed it, just hits. I think. I think it's about making. Using the Right. Words for things. You know, like, it's the way they wrote it. And I. And I get it because I remember reading and going like, oh, wow. Yeah, oh, wow.

[Carly Waters]

There was a comment also that I really liked. So I'm gonna read this person's full comment, and then I'm gonna read my response to it because I think they kind of nailed it here. So this is not about burnout. I mean, sure, but listening. Listing burnout first suggests the editor is tired from the work and not tired of the work. This is about the sacrifice artists have to make in order to get their work published. The number of writers who have told me in interviews that they were asked, they were told they were required to make changes to a manuscript to make it more sellable. And many were told by literary agents and editors, the capitalistic structure cannot be influenced for the better if writer advocates are carving out giant spaces for books that will sell and not making room for books that will change the world. A renaissance cannot happen when people in power maintain old structures that limit or edit artistic expression to suit a system that is willfully and unapologetically embracing replications of art simply because they will make them more money. And I said, great distinction between tired from the work versus tired of the work. Those. That's a huge distinction. Yeah. And that got 60 likes on that comment. So I think a lot of you guys agree with that.

[Cece Lira]

That was very smart. I agree. I definitely agree. I definitely agree.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, I'm looking at this again.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, it's just. It's a lot. I wanna. I wanna follow this now. I had not been following it. It's only been like, what, 24 hours since it was posted.

[Carly Waters]

Exactly.

[Cece Lira]

But I'm gonna. Yeah, I'm gonna mess with this. So I can see it. Okay.

[Bianca Marae]

Yes.

[Carly Waters]

Okay.

[Cece Lira]

Yes.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah. So anyway, we really appreciate everybody's thoughts and comments. I'm also over on YouTube where Lauren says, I wish you spent more discussing the topics from London Book Fair. SNS changes, you know, that we discussed. And she's like a little bit fatigued of our. Of our Reddit rant. So to that, Lauren, I will say I prepared us a substack about myths from London Book Fair. So I do want to get back to some, you know, core publishing stuff. I mean, I guess the balance that I always try. Try to strike with this show is that I've been talking about this industry for nearly 20 years on the Internet, so I fatigue of something. So sometimes when I'm like, oh, there's a fun Reddit thread or a fun substack we can talk about. We can get into some things I haven't talked about in a while. I do understand that sometimes you guys just want a little bit of bread and butter about the industry, which I obviously can respect as well. So, yeah, I grabbed us a Myths behind the London Book Fair from Phoebe Morgan, who is an editor, and her substack is called the Honest Editor. And we have quoted this substack before because it is great. So Phoebe posted just a couple days ago, must have been just after the fair, a great post about some myths just dispelled. So, cece, do you want to go back and forth with these myths? We can read them out for people.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah. Okay, so I really like this list. Myth number one, deals are done in a whirlwind at the book fair itself and announced immediately. Yeah, people always think that about the immediate announcements, right? Like, and remember, guys, please remember, like, reading a book takes time, and people need to read a book before making an offer. So it's not a situation where someone walks to someone's desk, is like, I have the next blah, blah, blah, and someone's like, I will give you a million dollars for it.

[Carly Waters]

Let's announce.

[Cece Lira]

It's so slow. So slow. You know, people time the announcement to get maximum buzz around. Around the publications. You know, whether it's the bookseller or publishers marketplace or whatever else it is. Like, we want the trades to capture deals.

[Carly Waters]

So for sure. No, for sure.

[Cece Lira]

This is like strategic timing. When to announce something is a very strategic publishing decision, and it's something that you should absolutely talk to your agent about and something that you should do to maximize buzz. So many writers are like, I really want to announce right now because I want to have, like, good publishing news.

[Carly Waters]

And I get that.

[Cece Lira]

At the same time, it's so important to do it when the time is right and when you can get most attention for that announcement. And you can never know for sure, but, you know, you can make an educated guess.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Think of this as a PR tool, not as just a. Like, we're just going to put this out on the Internet because it's happened. Like, it's incredibly, incredibly strategic. So, for example, that, like, let's talk about strategy regarding the fair. I think CC mentioned it, but just to kind of drill down on this, right? So a deal would have been done in 2025 for the primary book rights to the US publisher. Then they might be, you know, putting together the contract, negotiating the contract, doing all of that. And that's why it's not really announced, usually till contracts are done. Publishers Marketplace also gets really stingy about when you announce deals. If they think that you're taking too long to announce it, they can also refuse to post your deal because you didn't announce it close enough to when the deal actually happened. They are actually very particular about that. But let's say you do the deal, then it's the contract, and then the book fair is coming up. So you will notice there was a lot of six figure book club books announced probably about two weeks before the fair. And this is all done on purpose. There is also blasts that go out in Publishers Weekly in the bookseller, all the trades, because everybody's like making their list, making their meeting list, seeing what people are talking about so they know what to prep for for the meetings that are going to happen. And then whoever has the sub rights, the translation rights to those buzzy books that were announced a couple weeks before the fair, that's. That's the star of their catalog. So they've already printed the catalogs. Right. They're ready to go to the fair. They're doing the meetings. I guess a lot of them do digital catalogs these days. Not as many physical catalogs, but you know what I mean. So the catalog's been done, and then they're pitching the thing that looks like it was just announced. And in relative terms, it was a recent deal. The book hasn't come out because they're trying to bring on translation partners so that they can kind of, you know, sell more translation rights. And sometimes you'll see some of those deals were announced with a bunch of translation rights. So they just want more.

[Cece Lira]

Right.

[Carly Waters]

It's like, let's get this snowball moving. Nobody wants to have that FOMO of not being on the train of a hot book. So those are some examples of that specific timing.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, I like that. Okay, do you want to read us the myth number two?

[Carly Waters]

Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

First Morgan with this list. I really liked it.

[Carly Waters]

All right, first we're going to hear from our sponsors, and then we'll get to the next one.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

You guys know I am all about quality over quantity. I've worked on books about fashion and making the most of your wardrobe. So I feel pretty strongly about making making my clothes work for me. They have to be versatile and high quality with durable fabrics that feel elevated. And that's honestly why I love quince. They make high quality wardrobe staples from premium fabrics like 100% European linen, 100% silk, and organic cotton poplin. I'VE been living in their heather gray and camel Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're light enough for layering as the seasons change, but still feel incredibly luxe. I'm new to their jewelry but wear their gold hoops daily. Quince works directly with ethical factories to cut out the middlemen so you aren't paying for brand markups. Their pieces are built to hold up season after season, from the stitching to the fit. Stop waiting to build the wardrobe you actually want.

[Carly Waters]

You don't need a closet full of

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

options, you need pieces that work right now. Go to quinns.comteessnatya for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear and love it. And you will now available in Canada too. Go to Q-U-I-N c e.com tsnatyaw for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comtsnatya Is anyone else running out of places to store their books? I did a big organizational and closet clean out this weekend and I'm so glad I got a new bookshelf from Wayfair to stack all my books and

[Carly Waters]

make them look pretty.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Make your home work better for you and fall in love with it all over again with new items from Wayfair that give you real solutions to your home needs. Whether your aesthetic is mid century modern, contemporary or eclectic, Wayfair makes it easy to find what fits your style.

[Carly Waters]

I love how easy it was to narrow down exactly what I needed for

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

my living room, size restrictions and price point using their filters and reviews. I personally love contemporary and modern furniture that still has an old world feel. My new bookshelf is looks and functions perfectly in my house, making my space feel so much more organized. From furniture to decor to outdoor essentials and organizational solutions, you can upgrade your space with quality pieces that work within your budget. Find furniture, decor and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home

[Carly Waters]

all right, so the next one, every book that is announced at LBF goes on to sell really well and takes the world by storm. So no, obviously like that's not the case with any book or you know, we just never know, she said. Sometimes publishers overpay for books and the books do not perform and that happens all the time. Often we profile authors around the fair because they're more newsworthy and the Bookseller is more likely to run them. Right. The bookseller also runs, I want to say they do four issues the week of the fair because I think, well, maybe even five because they do their regular issue. They do a pre fair day, then there's three days of the fair. So there's a lot of content the bookseller has to fill, you know, in the newspaper to make it look like a lot's happening. So that's a really good one too. CC Next one.

[Cece Lira]

If your book isn't being sold at the London Book Fair, you're not important to the industry. That is definitely not true. And there's so many huge breakout books. Buzzy books, books, books that went out to become like category killers that were not sold during the London Book Fair that have absolutely no ties to the London Book Fair, did not get any buzz. And it's just, it's just not true. So if anyone's feeling that way, please don't.

[Carly Waters]

Number four, all the books announced at LBF are sold for lots of money. And she says, of course, no, you know, some deals are just for average amounts of advance money. Not everything's a six figure deal. Which is a great reminder.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, okay, so I love five. This is a myth we're busting. You have to have a platform or be a celebrity to be a successful writer. Now, like this, Okay, I love what she wrote. She's like, the vast majority of books on the fiction list are from regular people, like regular quotes. That's not how it works. It's about writing a fantastic story. Please focus on writing a fantastic story.

[Carly Waters]

All right, the next one is number six. Only the top editors or agents have books announced at lbs. Jeff. She says no. There's so many amazing, hardworking editors and agents at varying stage of their careers looking for brilliant books all year round who might not have splashy deals announced, but who are creating bestsellers all the time. Sometimes the timing doesn't link up. And of course, this is like any industry, right, where there's going to be splashy things announced, there is going to be people, you know, who get more attention than others, but a lot of people, agents and editors, just working class people selling really great books. So, you know, there's a lot of people just out there doing their jobs.

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, I like that. I like that. Seven. Is that where we are?

[Carly Waters]

Seven. Yes. Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

Foreign editors buy books on the spot at the London Book Fair. Again, not how life works in publishing, especially if you're from other industries that are very fast paced. This is a struggle. It takes Time to read a book. It takes time to make a decision. So much of Affair and Phoebe does write, this is about, like, relationships. You are building a relationship. You are working on a relationship. You are cementing a relationship. It's like, oh, my God, how have you been since last year? That's the sort of thing that's going on. So I definitely think that is a big myth that needs to be busted.

[Carly Waters]

All right, and our last one on the list is number eight. There are lots of glamorous parties. And she says, okay, yes, this one's true. I had to keep one true one in there to keep you on your toes. So a lot of publishers will do different parties on different nights. Different agencies will have different parties on different nights. Some foreign teams will organize meals for everybody. It's a lot of staying up late. There's a lot of alcohol consumed. There's not a lot of sleep. And it is very fun. That's all there is to it. For extroverts. It's great for. There's a lot of people, book publishing, that are introverts that, you know, have their moment to shine, and they're like, I really need to sleep. So there's a balance, you know? But I think a lot of the fairs serve extroverts very well.

[Cece Lira]

I remember, like, First London Book Fair seeing my schedule, and it was meetings every 30 minutes, like, the whole day with one tiny break for lunch. And I remember thinking, I'm going to die. I'm gonna die. Like, this is gonna deplete my energy. And the opposite happened, because I spent every single one of those meetings in this trance of, oh, my God, this is my life now. I'm talking about books. Like. Like this person, this person who's been sitting in front of me, this is all going through my head. I wasn't saying this out loud. This person in front of me, she did all these really cool books. And now I get to be here sitting down and talking. And it was just. Just the best feeling. So how something, like, whether something drains you or energizes you is like. It's just such an interesting discovery about yourself. There's something about book people. Book people have a different energy. Like, it's just different when you're around book people. When I'm around book people, it's. It's different. And speaking from an introvert. So it's a lot of fun.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's great. And it's. It's just contagious, right? It's like kind of like I Always say when I go to New York for meetings or go to LA for meetings, it's like a mini book fair for. For me. Because you get this like condensed perspective on the industry in a way that's just so validating and refreshing and reminds you why you're passionate about the job that you do. And yeah, it's all the, all the feels happen. So thank you to the honest editor substack for that one. And that was great. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, so the last thing on my list to talk about was the Crave series. So if you guys have been following this lawsuit it had going on for years. Cece, I don't know if you said in the ALA did a work workshop, kind of like a workshop, but they did a panel featuring the agent of.

[Cece Lira]

She was so brave. So great.

[Carly Waters]

Like she just spoke about like what the author was going through. Oh, it was incredible. Yeah.

[Cece Lira]

I wanted to like give her a huge box of Brigadeiros just to thank her for her bravery. Amazing. Amazing. She did amazing.

[Carly Waters]

Yeah, it, it's just so hard as an agent. You're like, what if I was in that. Those shoes and. Yeah, and I'm just so glad that they have, you know, come out on top essentially. So should we give the verdict here?

[Cece Lira]

Yeah, go ahead, you can read it.

[Carly Waters]

All right. So yesterday a judge in the Southern district of New York ruled that Tracy Wolf did not plagiarize her best selling series. There's a long running lawsuit first brought in 2022 by writer Lyn Freeman, who claimed that Crave was substantially similar to Freeman's manuscript Blue Moon Rising, which was represented by Wolf's agent, Emily Sylvan Kim, and ultimately unpublished. The suit named Kim the Crave publisher. Entangled Books distributed Macmillan Universal Studios which optioned Crave for film. So this has gone on for years and years. You know, we don't need to kind of give you the whole backstory of this case. This is what Google is for. There's been lots reported on it, but I just kind of wanted to bring it into this for a couple reasons, which is there's some great quotes from the judgment on this that I wanted to read out to everybody and yeah, just kind of like validate this because. Yeah, I'm just so glad we are where we are. So the judgment concludes this is a case that is easily disposed of once one reads the allegedly infringing works against each other. In light of the well developed law in the circuit on substantial similarities within literary works. I'm just going to pause for a second because the judge read six drafts of Blue Moon Rising and four of the Crave novels so that they could compare this. I just wonder this.

[Cece Lira]

Judge, you now can work in public if you read six drafts of the same book. You are an honorary publishing professional. Judge, we are awarding four of the others.

[Carly Waters]

Good job, judge. Good job. Like they really did their due diligence and I'm thrilled by this. Okay, back to the judgment. Freeman's novel and Woolf's Crave novels are indeed similar, but only in ways that all young adult romantasy fiction novels are similar to each other at the granular level. Looking at the unique creative expression, they are substantially different, not substantially similar. And I quote.

[Cece Lira]

Okay, are you ready for the best quote ever? Drumrolls Go. Go.

[Carly Waters]

And I quote, hot, Sexy, Dangerous Boys central to virtually all young adult romance novels cannot be copyrighted. End quote. The court notes.

[Cece Lira]

Oh, gosh. That means that they can be available for everyone. Whoever wants a hot, sexy, dangerous.

[Carly Waters]

The protagonists are for everyone. So that reporting was in Pub Lunch, but obviously can be found in many places. So I just kind of wanted to end on that because Hot, sexy, Dangerous protagonists cannot be copyrighted, everybody.

[Cece Lira]

They just can't. They just can't.

[Carly Waters]

All right, and we're going to end on that note today. Thanks for hanging out with us, everybody.

[Bianca Marae]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. Hi everyone. I'm going to keep this short because I know how busy you are. I just wanted to let you know that the next beta reader matchup is almost upon us. Submit your 3,000 words by 12pm Eastern Time on the 1st of April and you will get your beta reader matchup emails on the 2nd of April. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com.