Podcast Summary

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Shooting The Shit: CeCe's new job, agent referrals, and what publishers try to get away with when writers don't have agents
Hosts: Carly Watters & CeCe Lyra
Date: August 18, 2025

Overview

This episode centers on CeCe Lyra’s big career move to a new literary agency and the many questions and concerns writers have about such transitions. The hosts dive into the practicalities of agent moves, demystify referral etiquette between agents, and passionately discuss the pitfalls authors face when negotiating with publishers without agent representation. The latter half of the episode touches on the economics of publishing, the realities of the “blockbuster” model, and why writers fundamentally need to view themselves as entrepreneurs.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. CeCe’s New Agency Move

[03:17]

• CeCe reveals she has joined Wendy Sherman Associates (WSA) and shares lighthearted stories about her first days, including an ironic Writer’s Digest magazine listing her at her old agency.
• She clarifies the podcast remains unaffiliated with any literary agency.

"So my very first day, I wake up... and I see Writer's Digest in my mailbox... at my very first day at Wendy Sherman Associates, we have a profile. ...Of course, I'm listed with my old agency. Isn't that ironic?"
— CeCe, [05:00]

• Discusses the challenges and emotional nuances of job changes in publishing, likening motives to standard career incentives elsewhere—money, growth, freedom, or company culture.

2. FAQ: The Realities of Agent Changes

[08:36–25:56]

• Recent queries & requested materials: If you query an agent who switches agencies, your submission stays with the original agency. You're free to re-query.
  "Everything that was sent to my former agency stays with my former agency. ...If you guys want to query me at the new agency... you can." — CeCe, [09:11]
• MSWL (Manuscript Wishlist): Her genre focus and tastes remain unchanged, though details will be updated for WSA.
• What happens to clients: Clients always have a choice. They may stay with the old agency, follow the agent to the new one (after contractually appropriate notice), or move elsewhere. Books sold under one agency stay there.

  "A good agency will never hold clients hostage, right?...Nobody's going to do that at a serious agency."
  — CeCe, [11:53]

• Emotional ties: The hardest thing about leaving is missing colleagues; the perk at her new agency is having a real (physical) office for meetings.
• Collaborating with Carly: Now, writers can officially query both Carly and CeCe, as they're at different agencies—a shift raising the "stakes," playfully referenced with a “shark” song.

3. What Publishers Try to Get Away With (When Writers Don’t Have Agents)

[29:50]

• Contracts Without Agents: Publishers often include unfavorable “option” and “non-compete” clauses, which can severely restrict an author’s career if not negotiated.
  "This, as you can imagine as an agent, boils my blood like nothing else..." — Carly, [29:50]
  • Sneaky clauses include perpetual options, overly long non-competes, and unfavorable terms for future books or advances.
  • Without agents, authors may also get lower advances, worse royalty rates, and lose lucrative subsidiary rights (like foreign or film).

  "A lot of people think that the agent's job is merely that of a matchmaker. ...But that's just a tiny, tiny piece of what we do."
  — CeCe, [35:01]

• Lawyers Are Not Always Sufficient: Non-specialist lawyers may not know the industry specifics, and mistakes can lock authors into bad situations.

4. Agent Referral Etiquette

[37:56]

• CeCe and Carly explain why it's generally NOT beneficial to name-drop another agent in a query if that agent passed on your manuscript.

  "If they didn't want to work on this, it's not a good thing. ...I've seen queries where somebody says, like, I got this quote from an agent... That’s from a rejection letter!”
  — Carly, [38:33]

• The only exception: when switching genres or if the referring agent has specifically reached out.
• The hosts liken agencies to mid-sized companies where, if the project was promising, it’d likely be handled internally—not referred out.

5. The Economics of Publishing: The Blockbuster Model

[45:54–53:46]

• Featured a Substack article by Helen Lewis on book sales, showing most books sell modestly while a few big successes fund the rest.

  "Most publishing is basically the same model as venture capitalism. Make a few best bets and the outlier success will hopefully pay for all the rest."
  — CeCe, quoting, [46:13]

• Publishers take many “bets,” knowing only a few will “win big.” Authors need to understand this realistic industry context and manage expectations.
• Carly urges authors to see themselves as entrepreneurs seeking investment, not just artists.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On leaving and loyalty:

  "Clients are always free to do as they please... Obviously they have to follow their contracts... but a good agency will never hold clients hostage."
  — CeCe, [11:53]

• On professionalism:

  "Even if you’re not going to do it for the right reasons, for the wrong reasons, like, it would just look so bad."
  — CeCe, [12:34]

• On contract dangers:

  "There’s just so many sneaky things... that's just diabolical to me."
  — Carly, [30:45]

• On the publishing business model:

  "You are an entrepreneur seeking an investment. ...You are also at this stage, at the querying stage, submission stage, production stage, an entrepreneur seeking investment."
  — CeCe, [53:46]

• On the artist’s journey:

  "The biggest gatekeepers in all of publishing are not agents. ...The biggest gatekeepers are readers."
  — CeCe, [54:50]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• CeCe’s New Job & Announcement – [03:17]
• FAQ About Agent Moves – [08:36]
  – Queries and materials: [09:01]
  – Wishlist/taste: [10:22]
  – Client transitions: [10:54]
  – Emotional impact: [18:26]
  – Excitement about new agency: [21:35]
  – Querying both hosts: [24:16]
• Pitfalls for Unagented Authors (Publishing Contracts) – [29:50]
• Agent Referral Dos & Don’ts – [37:56]
• Publishing Economics/Blockbuster Model – [45:54]
• Closing Thoughts / Entrepreneur Mindset – [53:46]

Tone & Style

The hosts are candid, friendly, and packed with practical, sometimes humorous, industry wisdom. There’s an undercurrent of advocacy for emerging writers, combined with hard truths about industry realities.

For Further Reading

• Helen Lewis on Substack: The Economics of Writing a Book ([46:13])
• Podcast Website & Beta Reader Matchup: biancamarais.com

Summary Prepared For:
Listeners who want the inside scoop on literary agent moves, how to query smart, why agent representation truly matters when negotiating with publishers, and the business realities of a writing career. Even if you missed the episode, this detailed digest covers all you need to know.