Shooting The Shit: CeCe's new job, agent referrals, and what publisher's try to get away with when writer's don't have agents

Summary

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Podcast Summary

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: Shooting The Shit: CeCe's new job, agent referrals, and what publishers try to get away with when writers don't have agents
Hosts: Carly Watters & CeCe Lyra
Date: August 18, 2025

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Overview

This episode centers on CeCe Lyra’s big career move to a new literary agency and the many questions and concerns writers have about such transitions. The hosts dive into the practicalities of agent moves, demystify referral etiquette between agents, and passionately discuss the pitfalls authors face when negotiating with publishers without agent representation. The latter half of the episode touches on the economics of publishing, the realities of the “blockbuster” model, and why writers fundamentally need to view themselves as entrepreneurs.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. CeCe’s New Agency Move

[03:17]

• CeCe reveals she has joined Wendy Sherman Associates (WSA) and shares lighthearted stories about her first days, including an ironic Writer’s Digest magazine listing her at her old agency.
• She clarifies the podcast remains unaffiliated with any literary agency.

"So my very first day, I wake up... and I see Writer's Digest in my mailbox... at my very first day at Wendy Sherman Associates, we have a profile. ...Of course, I'm listed with my old agency. Isn't that ironic?"
— CeCe, [05:00]

• Discusses the challenges and emotional nuances of job changes in publishing, likening motives to standard career incentives elsewhere—money, growth, freedom, or company culture.

2. FAQ: The Realities of Agent Changes

[08:36–25:56]

• Recent queries & requested materials: If you query an agent who switches agencies, your submission stays with the original agency. You're free to re-query.
  "Everything that was sent to my former agency stays with my former agency. ...If you guys want to query me at the new agency... you can." — CeCe, [09:11]
• MSWL (Manuscript Wishlist): Her genre focus and tastes remain unchanged, though details will be updated for WSA.
• What happens to clients: Clients always have a choice. They may stay with the old agency, follow the agent to the new one (after contractually appropriate notice), or move elsewhere. Books sold under one agency stay there.

  "A good agency will never hold clients hostage, right?...Nobody's going to do that at a serious agency."
  — CeCe, [11:53]

• Emotional ties: The hardest thing about leaving is missing colleagues; the perk at her new agency is having a real (physical) office for meetings.
• Collaborating with Carly: Now, writers can officially query both Carly and CeCe, as they're at different agencies—a shift raising the "stakes," playfully referenced with a “shark” song.

3. What Publishers Try to Get Away With (When Writers Don’t Have Agents)

[29:50]

• Contracts Without Agents: Publishers often include unfavorable “option” and “non-compete” clauses, which can severely restrict an author’s career if not negotiated.
  "This, as you can imagine as an agent, boils my blood like nothing else..." — Carly, [29:50]
  • Sneaky clauses include perpetual options, overly long non-competes, and unfavorable terms for future books or advances.
  • Without agents, authors may also get lower advances, worse royalty rates, and lose lucrative subsidiary rights (like foreign or film).

  "A lot of people think that the agent's job is merely that of a matchmaker. ...But that's just a tiny, tiny piece of what we do."
  — CeCe, [35:01]

• Lawyers Are Not Always Sufficient: Non-specialist lawyers may not know the industry specifics, and mistakes can lock authors into bad situations.

4. Agent Referral Etiquette

[37:56]

• CeCe and Carly explain why it's generally NOT beneficial to name-drop another agent in a query if that agent passed on your manuscript.

  "If they didn't want to work on this, it's not a good thing. ...I've seen queries where somebody says, like, I got this quote from an agent... That’s from a rejection letter!”
  — Carly, [38:33]

• The only exception: when switching genres or if the referring agent has specifically reached out.
• The hosts liken agencies to mid-sized companies where, if the project was promising, it’d likely be handled internally—not referred out.

5. The Economics of Publishing: The Blockbuster Model

[45:54–53:46]

• Featured a Substack article by Helen Lewis on book sales, showing most books sell modestly while a few big successes fund the rest.

  "Most publishing is basically the same model as venture capitalism. Make a few best bets and the outlier success will hopefully pay for all the rest."
  — CeCe, quoting, [46:13]

• Publishers take many “bets,” knowing only a few will “win big.” Authors need to understand this realistic industry context and manage expectations.
• Carly urges authors to see themselves as entrepreneurs seeking investment, not just artists.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On leaving and loyalty:

  "Clients are always free to do as they please... Obviously they have to follow their contracts... but a good agency will never hold clients hostage."
  — CeCe, [11:53]

• On professionalism:

  "Even if you’re not going to do it for the right reasons, for the wrong reasons, like, it would just look so bad."
  — CeCe, [12:34]

• On contract dangers:

  "There’s just so many sneaky things... that's just diabolical to me."
  — Carly, [30:45]

• On the publishing business model:

  "You are an entrepreneur seeking an investment. ...You are also at this stage, at the querying stage, submission stage, production stage, an entrepreneur seeking investment."
  — CeCe, [53:46]

• On the artist’s journey:

  "The biggest gatekeepers in all of publishing are not agents. ...The biggest gatekeepers are readers."
  — CeCe, [54:50]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• CeCe’s New Job & Announcement – [03:17]
• FAQ About Agent Moves – [08:36]
  – Queries and materials: [09:01]
  – Wishlist/taste: [10:22]
  – Client transitions: [10:54]
  – Emotional impact: [18:26]
  – Excitement about new agency: [21:35]
  – Querying both hosts: [24:16]
• Pitfalls for Unagented Authors (Publishing Contracts) – [29:50]
• Agent Referral Dos & Don’ts – [37:56]
• Publishing Economics/Blockbuster Model – [45:54]
• Closing Thoughts / Entrepreneur Mindset – [53:46]

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Tone & Style

The hosts are candid, friendly, and packed with practical, sometimes humorous, industry wisdom. There’s an undercurrent of advocacy for emerging writers, combined with hard truths about industry realities.

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For Further Reading

• Helen Lewis on Substack: The Economics of Writing a Book ([46:13])
• Podcast Website & Beta Reader Matchup: biancamarais.com

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Summary Prepared For:
Listeners who want the inside scoop on literary agent moves, how to query smart, why agent representation truly matters when negotiating with publishers, and the business realities of a writing career. Even if you missed the episode, this detailed digest covers all you need to know.

Transcript

[A]

Beta Reader Match Up Time Is happening Again. It's been so gratifying over the summer to be tagged in so many posts about beta readers who've become writing besties and who are still going strong many years after they were first matched. Some even travel to meet up and do writing weekends together. Which sounds incredible. I can't guarantee any of that. That's entirely up to you, but. But what I can guarantee is that you'll be matched with a group of people working in your genre and or time zone who will critique 3,000 words of your work as you critique theirs. In return, you can sign up from now until the 31st of August with the matchup emails going out on the 1st of September. Head to my website Biancamarae.com and look for the Beta Reader Matchup tab.

[B]

What's up everyone? This is Cece. If you're a writer, then chances are you've wondered if your story is good enough. Maybe you're wondering that right now. I get it. Here's what I can tell you. As long as your story is making the reader curious, you're good. Now, I'm not saying you won't have to make edits when working with an agent or publisher. Edits are part of the game. But I am saying that you will get ahead in your career if you know how to make the reader curious. The best way to do that? Infuse your story with plenty of tension, conflict and stakes.

[C]

Which is why I'm sorry so excited.

[B]

To invite you to join my four day course Writing Tension Creating Tension, Conflict and Stakes in youn Story. It starts on October 13th. My favorite part about this class is that there are formulas. Yes, formulas for tension, for conflict, for stakes. And for the first time ever, we're having two optional interactive components including a query letter studio and live critiques of select first pages. I'm super excited about this new format because I've seen it yield results in writers works and it works for writers of any genre as long as you're serious about improving your work. So if you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for this four day course. Don't worry if you can't attend live, the sessions will be recorded. For more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast's website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.

[D]

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents. Grab your mug and pull up a chair. Hi, everybody. Happy shooting the shit day. We have a new episode coming at you, a very important episode for many reasons, which we'll get into. I think this has been a much anticipated episode because, you know, news that goes live on social media makes it to the podcast on a different schedule. But cece has the very biggest news of all, which, again, you guys would have already known by the time you make it to this episode. And you click on the episode title, because it's in the episode title. But cece, throw everybody, you know what the big news is.

[C]

So I have a new job. I have moved agencies. I am now with Wendy Sherman Associates, and I'm so happy, and I want to share all the news. But before we do, Carly, what day of the week is it?

[D]

So today is Saturday, and we actually never record on a Saturday, so this might be a little bit more of a loose weekend conversation. But it's Saturday, Cece.

[C]

Yes, and why is it Saturday? Why are we not recording on our usual Wednesdays? What happened last Wednesday?

[D]

I was having tech issues. I take full responsibility.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. No, that's not what happened. What I mean, I just mean, okay, this is how much we love you guys. For everyone listening, we always record on a Wednesday. And we started recording, but then Carly had Internet issues, which is fair. Like, I've had Internet issues, too. And then Carly was like, let's just do it on Saturday because I don't want to delay the episode. Isn't that sweet? I feel like everyone should be like, yay, round of applause for that. Thank you, Carly.

[D]

Well, I couldn't miss out. Also, I feel this, like, responsibility. Like, I say, I'm gonna do something come hell or high water. I'm doing the thing that's just a part of my personality. So I do feel beholden to everybody that listens to our show and expects the show. But, yeah, it's coming to you very live. And a huge shout out, obviously, to Alicia and Rosanna, who edit our show, who are turning this around very quickly because of my personal tech issues. Yeah. So usually Cece and I have a Google Doc where we kind of talk about everything we're going to mention in the episode. So I don't know where to start. Should we just start with the big move? And I know people had lots of questions. They sent in lots of questions to you. Yeah. Where would you like to start with questions or give us the backstory? I'm giving you the floor. Cece, you get. You get this one.

[C]

I will start with an ironic story on my very first day at wsa. So excited. You guys know how first days are. It's like opening up a fresh new notebook that you're very excited about. So my very first day, I wake up, and I've been trying to regulate my circadian rhythm, and I know that it's really important to wake up and see sunlight. Like, do not sit down. Do not look at screens, right? And that's what I like to do. I like to sit down and look at screens. But I was like, I'm not going to do that. So I got a cup of coffee, put on a really big hat, because I never leave the house when it's sunny without a very big hat. We should do an episode on skincare tips. Never mind. I digress. Put on a very big hat and walk to my mailbox just because I needed to go on a short walk. And my mailbox is a short walk. And then I see Writer's Digest in my mailbox, and I am actually showing Writer's Digest, so if you're watching this on YouTube, you'll be able to see the COVID And I'm like, this is interesting. I don't subscribe to Writer's Digest. Why is there a Writer's Digest in my inbox? I'm not complaining, but why? And then I thought to myself, oh, the podcast was probably featured. Fun. We've been featured before. We love that. But no, in the irony of all ironies, at my very first day at Wendy Sherman Associates, we have a profile. Well, not a profile that makes it sound more important than it is. So there is a list of various agents, and I am included on the list on page 36 with the name of my former agency. Isn't that fun, guys? Isn't that ironic? Like, everyone who picked up this magazine is going to be like, let me look up this agent. And like, oh, she's not there anymore. So if you're listening and you found me via the magazine, this is where I am now.

[D]

That's so funny. That is very deeply, deeply ironic. I so funny. You were talking about skincare, because I was getting ready for this episode, and I have been thinking this weekend about how I've been spending way too much time in the sun because I went to France. Obviously was in the sun. I go to the cottage in the sun. I train for triathlons. I'm in the sun. And I was literally thinking about how Cece's Going to look at me and be like, carly, you are too tan. You need to wear a hat. Because everybody, Cece is completely right. She will wear a hat to go two blocks. And I am deeply impressed by it. So I need to pull it together. Yeah, I feel like it's such a faux pas. It should be to spend so much time in the sun. So I'm giving myself a little flap on the wrist.

[C]

You look good. Listen, looking tanned makes you look healthy. It's good. But at the same time, like long term care. Carly knows this about me and hats because we went to London together last year. And literally to walk two blocks, I was like, I need a pause in the shade so I can pull off my really big hat. It's a very big hat, guys. It is ridiculous and embarrassing and I have to put my big hat on so we can walk two blocks. So my skin, I do so much stuff. It's really embarrassing. Anyway, we'll do an episode someday.

[D]

Yeah, we'll have to connect it to publishing somehow.

[C]

How the world of skincare and the world of publishing will find a way. So when I announced my big move on social media, when I announced that I was leaving my former agency to join Wendy Sherman Associates, I was obviously so happy. I. I was excited. I made a reel and I started getting a lot of dms, you know, people just asking me, like, what was happening, some specific questions. And so I shared in a story. The first thing I shared was, guys, the podcast isn't going anywhere. Like, the podcast is and has always been unaffiliated with any literary agency. So you don't have to worry about that. You're stuck with Carly, Bianca and myself. You're just stuck with us. We're still here. And then the second thing I did was share like a questions box in my stories and say, just drop your questions here and then we'll will answer them when we shoot the next shooting the shit. And we got 82 questions. So, like, obviously we're not going to go through every one of them, but I did round up because a lot of the questions were like the same thing in different wording. So I am going to go through all these questions. Carly has a copy of the questions. I don't know if you want to ask me, if you want me to ask them. How do you want to do this?

[D]

Yeah, I'll read them to you. Let's do it that way. Are you ready for your first question, Cece?

[C]

Yes. Oh, and I do want to say one thing. These are the six most Common questions. And then the seventh question was not most common, but it was the smartest question. The smartest, bestest, most wonderful list question of all, which we are leaving last to keep you guys wondering.

[D]

Yes, cece is tipping over some dominoes. So you guys listen to the end of the episode. Okay, so the first question that cece got, or I guess one of the top questions cece got, was, what happens to recent queries that were sent to you, including requested faults?

[C]

Yeah, I love this question because it's straightforward. So everything that was sent to my former agency stays with my former agency. That is as it should be. Right? Like, you are querying the agency. Of course you choose an agent there, but you're querying the agency. However, remember, writers are free people. Like, if you guys want to query me at the new agency, or if you just want to query another agent everywhere else, like, you can do that. I don't take materials with me. That's just not how it works. But you can find me. You know where I am. Unless, of course, you've already queried another agent at wsa, in which case, don't do that. But you guys know the rules. You guys know this.

[D]

Yeah, I saw. Just to chime in really quick, I saw a query come in recently into the PSLA box that said to Carly, I queried cc and she's not there anymore. And I'm like, you know, totally fine to re query it to somebody else. Like, we do see the bulk of queries coming to the inbox. That's again, the purpose of us having just a general purpose query inbox. So if it makes you feel better to redirect it to somebody else, then again, you're definitely free to do that.

[C]

As always, do what your heart desires when it comes to this stuff, guys, because it's. It's your choice.

[D]

Absolutely. Okay, so the next question, and I've already seen some this on social media, which is will your MSWL change? Which is your manuscript wishlist. So is your taste going to change now that you've moved agencies?

[C]

My taste has not changed. I still rep adult fiction and nonfiction. I still want all the stories I wanted before. I want to lose myself in a book. I want to find that book that hypnotizes me. So same taste, different agency. It's. I will be posting more about my wish list, something more specific, just more detailed, both in the WSA Instagram account and my own Instagram account. So make sure to follow me there and you'll get more information.

[D]

Great. All right, next question. Is, do clients get to move with you?

[C]

That was probably the second most popular question. Everyone was like, what happens to your clients? What happens to your clients? So people did say, like, do your clients come with you? How does it work? So this is a really interesting opportunity to talk about how it works in publishing, right? So when an agent leaves an agency, clients are free to do as they please. Clients are always free to do as they please. Obviously they have to follow their contracts and there's ways to do that. But let's say a client wants to stay within the agency. They can say that to that agency. They can say, hey, I want to stay. Can you assign me to a different agent? Can I have a conversation with this other agent there? Let's say a client wants to move with the agent who's leaving, then they terminate with the agency. Wait whatever period they have to wait. It could be 30 days, it could be two weeks, right? Like, there's different periods for different places. And then they get to sign at a different agency if they want to. They could also decide to leave the agency and the agent and just go elsewhere. Just go to a third, different option. Just remember that you are free and that is as it should be. Your books, if you've sold, like, if your agent has sold books under an agency's umbrella, those books stay there. But again, future books that you write and all that, you can continue your career elsewhere if that's what you want. I do think that it is very common for people to come with agents because it is such a personal relationship. Like, clients typically are attached to the agent way more than they are to the agency. I am sure there are exceptions, but it's really not my personal situation. Like, I know my clients are attached to me and I'm attached to them. I know of a story and this has to be said, it's a little bit gossip, but I know of an agent who used to work for an agency that would not let him take his clients. So when he left the agency, started his own, actually, legally, contractually, I should say, he was not allowed to take his clients. But he did, and the agency sued him. And then he countersued. And after very lengthy and annoying legal dispute, he did get the right to take his clients and he got damages and all that. But, like, what I'm saying is different agencies might have different policies, but a good agency will never hold clients hostage, right? Like, nobody's going to do that at a serious agency. Like, that's just not something who wants that, first of all, like, people who do that need to start eating more chocolate chip cookies and just becoming happier in their lives in general, because that's just not a nice way to be. But also, like, it would look so bad. Like, even if you're not going to do it for the right reasons, for the wrong reasons, like, it would just look so bad. So, anyway, I'll use an example. Bianca. Right. Bianca is a perfect example. Like, I sold Witches of Moonshine Manor, and I sold A most puzzling Murder under the PS Literary umbrella. Those books stay there. Bianca can choose to terminate her contract. She can choose to sign with me. She can choose to stay with P.S. it is entirely her choice. She has chosen to terminate and eventually will sign with me once the period is over, which, of course, I'm very happy about, because I love Bianca. You guys know that. But the trio remains intact.

[D]

Yeah. One thing I just wanted to chime in on was just because this is such a good learning. Learning opportunity for everybody to kind of chat about how this works. And cece touched on this, of course, but I just kind of want to nail it is the books stay with the agency. And so it's kind of hard to fathom, obviously, things becoming, like, bad blood or anything like that. So this isn't based on cece's specific situation, but it's just one of those things where, like, always treat people really well. Like, even if, again, you're terminating, you're moving on because you're going to have so much future interaction with that agency, Even if you're like, I'm terminating with that agency, if they've sold books for you, you will be in contact regularly about royalty statements, about tax forms, about foreign rights. Like, there's just so much that's captured, you know, with that sale of the book that the agency is then continuing to manage it in perpetuity. So, again, always a reminder to be nice to everybody all the time in publishing, because, you know, everything comes back around. And again, if the agency has sold something for you, you will be in contact so much more than you think that you will be, because, again, the proper management of the rights is dictates.

[C]

So. And honestly, even if you have not had a book sold there, it's good advice for everyone because you might need blurbs from a client of that agency. You never know if tomorrow you might decide to go back to that agency. Like, why not nurture relationships in an industry that's based on relationships? Like, it's not a bad thing. Right. The thing is, it can get awkward. We'll get to that in a. In a later question. But it can get awkward to be like, oh, leaving and going elsewhere. But at the end of the day, like, this is a business. We're all adults. And if we're all professional and kind to each other, there will be no drama. That's the message here.

[D]

All right, we'll move to our next question, which is why do agents generally change agencies? Not prying for your personal reasons, by the way, but maybe like a little bit.

[C]

A lot of people were prying. A lot of people were like, I need to know your personal reasons. Okay, so this is why I love this question. I feel like, especially when we discuss shooting the shit, and especially when I'm in panels at conferences and when I'm just answering DMs and when we're doing our Q and A segment for our newsletter subscribers, I feel like whenever I'm explaining publishing, I have to talk about an alternate universe because so much of publishing is weird. I don't get to say, oh, it's just like working in tech, or it's just like working as a lawyer or like working as, I don't know, marketing. Like, it's. It's so different from other corporate jobs because it's such a specific industry. This question, though, I kind of love it because it's just like any other job. Agents move agencies for the same reason why many, many workers change companies. And it has to do with incentives. So if you're listening to this, I'm curious, please tell me if you're listening on social media or on substack. But I'm curious, have you ever changed jobs to whoever is listening? If you have, sometimes it might be for reasons that have nothing to do with incentives. It might be for logistical reasons, like you moved countries or moved cities if you had to move jobs. But I am willing to bet that most of you changed because of incentives. And incentives can be financial incentives, like more money. Agents obviously get paid on commission, but much commission we make, what the terms of that commission is. These things change, right? So financial incentives is a big reason why agents move agencies. Another reason is just growth. Sometimes, not always, but sometimes to grow, you need to change. And so it makes sense to. To do that. You might want to be at an agency that has, I don't know, a different path for promotions or a different way of. Of growing. Like a different. Like different systems that might allow you to grow in different ways. It might be able to give you access to things that you don't have at a different agency. A big Incentive, too, in, in the corporate world is freedom. How much freedom you're going to have versus how much freedom you had before. Another really big incentive is company culture, which comes down, I think, to management style in the business world. There's a great line, I love this line that says culture eats strategy for breakfast. So you can change strategy all you want. You can adopt a new strategy. If the culture isn't aligned with the strategy, culture will eat strategy for breakfast. And like, I won't discuss my own personal reasons because I do think that that is super personal. But I will say this. I followed incentives that mattered to me. And it's not about bad or good. It's about figuring out what incentives are most important to you. To your mental health, to your well being, to your ambition and excitement and just life. You know, it's a big. It's a big life decision. But I love this question because I get to say it's like so many other jobs.

[D]

That was a great answer. Thank you. And I'm keeping my mouth shut. This is supposed to be a gossipy show, but we can't. This is one we're not gonna gossip on. So I'm zipping my lips over here. If you're watching me on YouTube, I'm like spatially zipping my lips. Okay, so next question. What will you miss the most about P.S. literary? And what are you happiest to leave behind?

[C]

Okay, the missing most is easy. It's the people. Like, I'm gonna miss the people. I am very lucky to say I won't have to miss Carly because I'll still get to hang out with Carly because we have a business together. But I will miss the people. There are some brilliant, like, actually scarily intelligent people that I got to work with, people who fight the good fight, people who have taught me so much. And I. When I think back to the person I was joined, my former agency, I get emotional. Like, I've grown so much. I've discovered so much about myself, about publishing, about writing, about life. Like, I couldn't even. Like, it could feel a book, which I will not, because that would be a very, very personal book. But it could fill a book. That is how much material I could talk about in terms of my growth and my learning experience. And I'm just deeply, deeply thankful. Deeply thankful for the years there. Like, they have shaped me. It was a dream come true to work there for as long as I did. And I want to make something clear. No place is perfect. Like, even if I were to open up my Own agency, which, spoiler alert, I have no desire to. It would still not be perfect, but my time there was net positive, you know, like I had so much, so many good things. So that is an easy question to answer. The first part, which is I will miss the people the most. I don't want to name names, but there are people that I used to get to be on the phone with and ask questions. Their answers, answers were always like so scarily smart. And it was just, yeah, it was a really great place to work for, for as long as I did. And I'm very thankful. What am I happiest to leave behind? So this is a hard one to answer because like I said, it was so positive. I did think about it. I'm like, I want to answer the question. I am excited to leave behind the fact that we don't have an in person office. I want to be clear about this. It is 2025. Nobody needs an office. Everyone works remote. Okay? Editors work remote. Editors who have offices in big buildings, they still work from home most of the time. At least many, many of them do. It is 2025. I am not suggesting it's a necessity. I am saying I'm excited to have an office in the city. I'm excited to, I don't know, grab coffee with an editor and then be able to head to the Flatiron district and be inside my agency's office. Like I have said this actually before. I said, hey, I love working here back when I was at ps, but I miss the fact that we're never all together in the same place. So, yeah, that's something that I will get to have occasionally. It's not something that will go in all the time or anything like that, but you have the option of going in and I like that. So it works well for me.

[D]

I love that. Yeah. And I mean, I think that the work from home return to office conversation is super interesting and like picking up steam again as people are trying to figure out what the right thing to or, you know, right, obviously is in quotes because it's so personal. Right. For everybody's lives has changed so much since we started this, like, work from home culture. Yeah. It's going to be really interesting the next couple of years how that shakes out. But there's certain personalities where they just really thrive and being in more interactive environments. And some people who are very happy to just like, you know, do their silo thing and work completely remotely. So that's interesting. And I think that topic is going to come up on our, our show and in other ways for sure. Okay, and number six. We're up to number six here. What are you most excited about your new agency?

[C]

This is like the hardest question because I'm so excited about many things, I think working with Wendy. So Wendy and I Met in Kauai, November 2024. Hit it off right away. Like, we grabbed a drink at this Japanese bar at the hotel and we just, like, the conversation just flowed. She has great energy, and I'm an energy person. Like, the reason why I like or don't like someone or I want to spend time or don't want to spend time with someone is so energy based. And we love the same books. Like, she knows everyone. She's just one of those. Like, she's such a known and respected figure in publishing. I've received so many emails since I've announced a move to be like, oh, my gosh, you get to work with Wendy. You're so lucky. And I agree. I am. Think. I think the reason why I'm so excited, in addition to, like, her being this person that I want to hang out with and spend time with, is publishing is a business of soft power. And it's hard to explain. This is. This is me going back to publishing being weird and unlike other industries, it's sales, right? But it's selling emotions and it's corporate. But it's almost like a exclusive club and it's corporateness. Like, it is a business of soft power. Wendy wields that power in a very impressive way. And I'm excited to be a part of that because I love power. You guys know me. You guys know I love power. So I. I will say that is the number one reason. A close second is working with. With the other agents who, who work there. So Charisse, Callie and Laura. I'm really excited. I. The biggest compliment I can give someone, and people don't think this is a compliment, but it is, is I feel safe with you. Like, that is the highest compliment I can pay to a person because it takes me a long time to feel safe around someone. I am, I'm not a trusting person. I'm. I can be very playful and warm and I appear extroverted. So people get this wrong about me. I am deeply, deeply untrusting. I skeptical. I'm. I'm reserved when it comes to my deep emotions. And I already feel like I belong in that group. Like, I've had enough chats with them and I've interacted with them and I feel comfortable. Like, I feel Comfortable being there, and I feel lucky to be there. And I don't know. I. Like I said, I'm an energy person, so this is very much an energy match. Cool.

[D]

I love that. Yeah. And Laura was a fantastic editor for a long time, and now she's a fantastic agent. On Laura mostly does nonfiction, but, yeah, she's incredible. So look up all of Laura's books as long as. As well as everybody else's books. But Laura has really great taste. Laura Masur on the nonfiction side over at Wendy Sherman. Okay. Oh, dun, dun, dun. We're up to number seven. This is the one that Cece teased you guys. And since we're recording on the weekend, I haven't read these questions in a couple days. So here we go. Number seven, which is. Does this mean we can officially query you both? Was that a very popular question?

[C]

No. No.

[D]

Only two people asked the surprising question.

[C]

Yes. Like, Paige asked this question, was the first person to ask. And another human did, too. Forgot their name. So sorry. Other human. Guys, guys, look alive. Guys, look alive. This should have been the first question everyone asked. As it stands, yes, again, podcast separate from agency, but, like, we are agents, and you get to query agents if you so choose. As it stands, you guys, up until now, you guys had to choose. You had to be like, I can either query Carly or Cece. And now you don't. Now we get to put on shark hats. Wait, can I can. Do you know how to sing a shark song? Like. Like, what? What is a shark song? I don't know. Shark songs. We need musical. Duh. Duh.

[D]

But that's the start of the. Like, baby shark.

[C]

That's okay. We can sing that. Like, we can sing any shark.

[D]

Baby shark, baby shark, shark.

[C]

Shark. Oh, God. Okay, but seriously, this is the first question everyone should be asking, okay? And you guys were not. You guys were all like, tell me the gossip. What's going on? What made you do this? What about your clients? Great question. Guys, you're missing the point. The point is, now we have upped the stakes, okay? This podcast has done what we expect queering writers to do. We have given you a plot twist, and we have upped the stakes. And. Yeah, and you can sing the shark song now for the rest of your lives in your head. You are welcome.

[D]

Yeah, I won't do that in every episode. Apologies. All right, and now we're gonna throw to our sponsors. Did you know that your calendar age doesn't always match how old your body truly is? I recently took the true age test from True diagnostic to disc my biological age and I know it's going to completely change the way I think about my health. You guys know I take my health very seriously, from training for triathlons to wanting to live a long time to raise my boys and watch them grow. Health is such an important part of my life and family. Biological age is a powerful indicator of how fast you're aging internally, which directly predicts your risk for serious diseases. Here's why that matters. Research shows that if your biological age is even just five years older than your actual age, you risk developing diseases like cancer or heart disease and they can jump by as much as 30 to 50%. That's a big deal and it's completely avoidable. 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Wayfair makes it easy to tackle your home goals with endless inspiration for every space and budget. Get organized, refreshed and back to routine for way less. Head to Wayfair right now to shop all things home. That's w Wayfair. Every style, every home. All right, and we are now back. So we have, you know, another half of the show to go here. We have a couple things we wanted to talk about today. One of the things I wrote on my list is we talked about this like vaguely on the books with hooks segment in various capacities. I think in our deep dives we've talked about this whenever I get some opportunities to be more long winded. One of the things that comes up from time to time and again I could speak about it as vaguely as possible on the show is what publishers try to get away with when writers don't have agents. This, as you can imagine as an agent, boils my blood like nothing else because I just, it's just one of those things where I just know that if somebody had an agent, they would have been treated differently in so many ways. Whether it's the way that their acquisition was handled, the way that their contract was handled, the way that the contract was drafted, the way that their publishing experience. There's just so, so many things. So I want to talk vaguely about an experience. You know, I'll, I'll mash up a couple experiences in this regard, but Cece, how do you. How do you feel about this? Does it boil your blood as much as it boils my blood?

[C]

Very much. Very much. And I remember the day I realized the degree to which this matters. It can be. It can be scary to do this without an agent. And I know, I know someone's listening and going, well, you guys are biased. Yes, we are. We are also right. You can be biased and write. You can be both at the same time. This is one of those situations. An agent is an advocate, and an agent knows how this industry works. And so it's. It's bad. It's bad. And bad things could happen. I'm curious to hear the mashup composite character situation we're going to hear about now.

[D]

Yes, I will composite the situation usually. And I guess I shouldn't say usually, but the thing that's coming to mind for me is the kind of the way that the option clause and then on camera, compete clause interact with each other can really get authors into a pickle. So the option clause is the kind of first right of refusal in your contract, in your book deal, which is you give the kind of exclusive opportunity for your existing publisher to consider your next work, which, you know, sounds relatively fair in theory. Okay, they took a chance on me, therefore, you know, I'll let them have the, you know, the next look. That doesn't mean that you have to sign with them. But there's so many sneaky things. I've seen things where the option clause includes they have to acquire the book on the exact same terms, like financially and otherwise that they paid on that first book. So let's say your first book was a huge New York Times bestseller, sold millions of copies, and they bought it for a more modest sum, that they could still pay that modest sum on your next advance anyway. Just like, that's just diabolical to me, seeing things like just not narrowing down the clause. So say, you know, you are somebody that works in the romance genre, but the option clause wasn't narrowed down to just your next romance. It was like anything you'll ever write. But like, again, what if you wanted to do a nonfiction book or a children's book or something in another category, which that publisher isn't a specialist in. Why would you want to give them the first right of refusal on that? So, like, narrowing it down, timelines to consider. This is a big one on the option clause, where, you know, you want your publisher to consider it in a timely manner, you don't want to give it to them, and Then they can sit on it for a year while making a decision. So some publishers will be kind of sneaky and say like we're not going to consider your option. Meaning like you can't kind of get back to work and have a new deal and move forward in your career until your last book has like come out or even longer than that. And then they, they delay how long they can consider it. And then all of a sudden your book's been out and you have no idea whether your publisher is going to give you another deal. Contractually, all of that stuff is just like again, just always so mind boggling. And then the non compete clause is the window in which you know, you can't really have anything going on. And this is very realistic in business. Right? It's like if you're going to put out a product you don't want to somebody to then go out and then put another book out within two weeks of the existing book because again like how are consumers going to know what to buy and things like that. But there could be sneaky things like a non compete for an exorbitantly long amount of time, like a year plus 18 months, something really long. Or again not carving out fiction versus non fiction or self published title. So there's just, anyway there's just so many sneaky things. And that's what's got me all riled up is like, and especially the way these two things interact and how it can just put the brakes on an author's career so fast because all of a sudden they're not able to submit their option material or they're tied to these terms or this publisher that doesn't really have their best interests and has the publisher's best interest and they're not able to like escalate their career because they just get stuck anyway. So that was what was on my mind.

[C]

Yeah. And it's for sure very frustrating. And also there are, there are elements that come into play where you make less money because publishers are not offering the same royalties necessarily to someone without an agent because they think they can get away with more. At the end of the day, it's a business. There are also things like the advance like I have seen not just with the deals I've negotiated myself, but deals my colleagues have negotiated. Like I have seen the difference an agent can make in terms of like no, no, no, not this amount of money, this other amount of money in terms of right scraps, you know, and in theory a beginner author hears they bought world rights isn't that great. They want my book in the whole world. That's terrible. I mean, it can be terrible because the publisher is paying you the same amount of money for more territories. And so if you keep those rights and, you know your agency's foreign rights teams can sell those rights, often, you'll make a lot more money. And I'm not saying that is necessarily the best situation, because every. Every deal is a different situation. You have to.

[D]

Sometimes World can be very lucrative, right? It's like, that's up to the agent. Again, usually to say, like, put the gas pedal on here. Because if you think you can pay a lot of money for this and launch it in the world, that's great. But if we're talking like a low five figures, a low four figures for World, like, that's a big question mark about whether that would be in your best interest.

[C]

And part of your agent's job is to advise you there, right? And to be like, hey, okay, World is great in this situation, but they have to pay more or World is great and they're paying adequate amount of money. I. I have seen this happen so many times. I'm thinking of one case, one specific case where I really wanted to work with this author. She works in nonfiction, and, gosh, her book would be so great. Like, I could just. I can picture her book. It hasn't come out yet, but I can picture it in my head just based on her content. And it's such an amazing book. And I offered her up. She had other offers, and she called me and she said, I. If I were to sign with an agent, I would sign with you, but I don't want to sign with any agent. I just don't think I need one. I'm, you know, two. She's really well known. She has connections. A lot of people think that the. An agent's job is merely that of a matchmaker. And that is a huge part of our jobs, a part that I'm very proud of. But that's just a tiny, tiny piece of what we do. It's not just connecting you with a publisher. And anyway, this person decided to go ahead without an agent. They asked me to. They asked, would you consider reviewing the contract? As a former attorney, as someone who has experience in contracts? And I said, no. I said, if you want my. If you want my brain, like, you have to be my client, and you don't want to be my client, and that. That's fine. But anyway, fast forward to this person sold their book, their book was announced, and then they reached out to me on social media to be like, I realized that I signed something I shouldn't have signed. And she realized this after she had already signed the contract, obviously. And she spoke with a friend. This friend does have an agent. And I'm not going to get into what it is, but there is something in her contract that's going to make her life very, very difficult. From an expert point of view, there are no escalators in the world. Like, there's just so much. Click, Carly. Like, if you had. Like, there's just so much that we could have done. You know what I'm saying? Like. Like a good agent could have been in.

[D]

Frustrating. I know. And it's like we spend our careers building these, like, these abilities.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Like, we are experts in this field. This is what we do. So frustrating. Again, everybody's allowed to make their own choice. But I've even seen somebody hire a lawyer because we're always like, okay, if you. If you don't want an agent, obviously hire a lawyer. But if somebody doesn't hire the right lawyer who knows the world of publishing, they can also get themselves into a pickle. Because I've seen lawyers do things in contracts which I've reviewed later, and I'm like, I would have never. Like, I just wouldn't have expected that from a lawyer who would have expertise in the field like that. So all lawyers aren't created equal. All agents aren't created equal. And, yeah, sure.

[C]

And it's just. Again, no, but it's true, like. Like what you said. People should do whatever they want. Happy for authors to do whatever they want. And listen, I'm sure there are unagented authors out there who are doing just fine and don't want one. Cool. Good for you. We see the horror stories because no one reaches out to us and says, I. A great story. Let me just tell you a great story. For no reason. That's. That's also true. I don't know. I know, again, this is one of the situations where you can be biased and. Right. We are biased and Right.

[D]

This episode is just all the things we think we're right about, I guess. This is our show, guys. This is our show. Yeah. Oh, man. All right.

[C]

So I have a question.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Okay. Yeah. I have a question for you. I have a question about. This is kind of gossip also. I want to pick your brain, and I. If there are any other agents who listen to this, because I know a lot of publishing professionals have told me they listen to this. I want to Hear from you. How do you feel? Like, does. Has this ever happened to you? And if it has, how do you feel when. When you get a query from a writer, like, random writer, you don't know this person. Random query, saying, hello, Carly, so and so referred me to you. So and so is an agent. So and so is an agent who works in the same space that you do. They rep the same kinds of books that you do. How does that make you feel?

[D]

That's a really good question, actually. So not great. Is that what you're gonna say? Because if somebody queries me and says, oh, so and so age read this and liked it, but they can't work on it, and I'm like, well, there's probably a reason. So and so agent who is my peer, my contemporary, who I probably know in some capacity? Or again, this is such a relational business where I know somebody who knows them. If they didn't want to work on this, it's not a good thing. Like, I've seen examples of this. I've seen queries where somebody says, like, I got this quote from an agent, and then they'll like, quote the rejection in the query as if that's an endorsement. And I'm like, man, dude, like, that's from a. That's from a rejection letter. Don't, like, cite that rejection letter back to me about why you think it's good. Because it could be the part of the rejection letter that's like, I really connected with. Did you do. Do. Do you know? And that's an I. As an agent, I'm like, that's a rejection letter. You're just quoting a rejection letter back to me. So, yeah, I would say that's a no go. Yeah. Have you. I guess I'm curious about, like, what spurred this on? Was there something that this has been happening to me?

[C]

Okay, there's an agent. We're not naming names. This is a very successful agent.

[D]

Agent.

[C]

Okay. I've met her. She's great. She's.

[D]

Does she have a really full list? Does she have a really full list, you think? And that's.

[C]

She's in growth. So I have theories about what she's. Why she's doing this, and we'll get to the theories. But she, She's a great agent. I want to make that clear. Because if this were coming also from a bad agent, it would also be different. She's a great agent.

[D]

Right.

[C]

I have gotten, at this point, 10 different query letters from people who said, I spoke to this person and this person has Referred me to you. Now, I have many theories about what's happening here.

[D]

Okay, I got a couple theories. Okay, let's run with it.

[C]

One theory, like, this person is supposedly anyway in growth mode. And so I don't know. I don't know why they wouldn't be taking on new clients. Another theory is they met me and thought, because I'm in major growth mode, I really want more clients. And they're just like, hey, this is good. Good. But I didn't love it. But maybe CeCe will love it. You know, they might. They might be trying to be nice. Another theory is they might be doing freelance work that I don't know about, and then they can't sign the people they're doing freelance work with. I don't know. I have a lot of theories. My brain is nothing but a theory factory.

[D]

I have a different. I have a different theory. Okay, go ahead.

[C]

No, but I was gonna say, I really don't like this. And it's not that I don't like that she's doing this. I don't like.

[D]

I.

[C]

When I read a query letter that starts with so and so referred me to you.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

That does not make me. That does not increase the chances of me liking the query letter. Now, I want to be honest. I would never hold it against a writer because it is not the writer's fault.

[D]

Fault.

[C]

The writer did nothing wrong. And so I would read the query letter. I would review the query letter. I would still scroll down and read the pages. I would not let that have hurt a writer's chances at all, because I just wouldn't do that. I would override the part of my brain that resists. But I don't think that's a smart move. And if sometimes writers ask me, hey, you don't want my story, but can you refer me to someone else? And I'm like, no, you don't want that. You don't want me to say. Unless it's a genre I don't rep. Right. Like, I don't rep kid lit. If I refer you to a kid lit agent that is totally different. But I just don't.

[D]

I would say, yeah, the only time. Okay, I'll get into my theories. I have two theories. The only time I would think this would be okay is if that agent says, hey, Carly, you know, I'm sending this person your way for XYZ reason. So, like, the referral comes from the agent, not the author. Because to me, that's not really a true referral. Like, that's not does it still make.

[C]

You wonder why you guys have identical.

[D]

No. No. I got two theories. I have. I have two theories. One theory is this is from a conference and this person was. It was like face to face at a conference. And your name or like, I don't know, this person had a list of, like, other agents. Because that's a really nice thing to do at a conference. Face again, we talked about conferences before, actually, some. We're gonna talk about that on the next shooting. This shit actually is how we actually feel about writers conferences. But I have a feeling, like, because at writers conferences, when people pitch us, then it's like, oh, it's not for me. But it could be for so and so is a way to, like, get out of requesting it in a way. So I have a theory. One theory is it was a writers conference and that's why you got 10. Because it was at a writers conference and this person maybe had a list of other agents and was like, try so and so. Try so and so. One theory. Second theory is they. Again, I'm completely speculating. So nobody hold this against me. They're going on maternity leave or parental leave, and so they can't take on clients potentially because they're like, I'm going on. Because when I went on maternity leave, when I found out I was pregnant, I just stopped signing clients because I just.

[C]

Again, yeah, of course I had.

[D]

Et cetera, et cetera, all the reasons. So those are my two theories. It was a writers conference or they are going on print leave.

[C]

It's been happening for months, so it wasn't all at once. And this person was not going on leave. Okay, yeah, but those are good theories. Those are good, solid theories because that could be the case. I've spoken to another agent about this and they were like, I don't like it when that happens because this other agent also has. This has happened with. To them. Like, they've had emails where, oh, this other agent referred me, and they're like, the other person didn't think it was good. Why am I getting a thing? Think it's good Writers, if you're listening, like publishing professionals, if you're listening, I want to know if this happens to you writers, if you're listening. I would not put that in a query letter unless it's a different genre situation. Again, I don't rep kid lit. If I tell you, you should look up so and so. That is fine. Because if I have.

[D]

We don't know all the kid lit agents because that's like, in my Opinion. That's not even a good referral either.

[C]

But I have like, I will say this, and in fairness, it was different because I contacted the agent. But like, I remember reading something that was really good. Good, really, really good kid lit and perfect for my friend Linda Camacho. Like perfect.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm like, this was built for Linda. I contacted Linda.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. I would do the legwork to be like, there, there is a reason this isn't for me. Another reason this is a red flag or yellow flag. I don't know. How are we flagging this? Are we flagging this yellow or red?

[C]

I think yellow. Yeah. I think yellow. Yeah.

[D]

Okay. Another reason this is a yellow to red in my opinion is. Or if it was that good. This is an orange flag. This is a Taylor Swift flag. Orange flag. Another reason this is flag worthy is because if it was that good, why would they want to keep it within the agency? Because a lot of us work at mid sized to larger agencies. If you're a solopreneur and so you, you have your own shingle and it's your name. Okay, sure. You only work on nonfiction and somebody queers you with fiction. You have an agent fiction friend. Off they go. If you work at a large to mid size agency, super suspicious. That's flag worthy. Because then it's like, well, why, if it was that good, why wouldn't you pass it on to a colleague? That's what I. Yep.

[C]

Thank you. I. Okay. Took the words out of my brain because that's something I mentioned too. Big agency, guys, this is from. I'm gonna tell you as soon as we stop recording, but big agency, like huge, huge agency. And yeah. I don't know. Weird. Weird. I. I don't think you should put this in your query.

[D]

I don't think they're doing a good thing. Maybe they think they're doing probably. Nobody's probably known that they're. We're all telling them. Maybe now they can listen to this and not do that. Yeah.

[C]

But probably they do and, and, and listen. That's cool. Again, like I said, I am not gonna hold it against any writer because that would be.

[D]

But it's just not getting the writer. It's getting the writer's hopes up a little bit. So I guess, yeah. Writers who are hearing this. Yeah. Just know it's not. If you think this is maybe like an endorsement or like, yay, it's a referral. In my opinion. It is actually not a referral because it's not coming from the source of, of Which I want the referral to filter to me. That's why.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. We're back to talking about how weird publishing is. Publishing is weird.

[D]

We should have just called this segment Publishing is Weird.

[C]

Shooting the Shit.

[D]

That'll be our placeholder. Okay, so we have. We're gonna just do one link today. I think we only have time for one link. So, cece, you put this link in our chat, which is kind of about, like, sales and bestseller sales and things like that, so. Really interesting. You want to walk us through the link you chose to talk about today?

[C]

Sure. So this is. And we. I will ask our team to add the link, if possible, in the show notes. So this is from a substack by Helen Lewis, the Bluestocking 379, the Economics of Writing a Book. I really enjoyed it.

[D]

Published August 1st, if you're looking for this. Yeah, published August 1st.

[C]

I really enjoyed reading this. Essentially, she goes through a few things. She just published a book, and she is talking about how a friend of hers also published a book and. And diligently followed the publisher's advice about generating buzz on social media, but ended everything. Like, studied how to record videos and vertical videos versus horizontal videos and, like, whatever the ratio is, like, all the things. All the big, big social media work. And then this friend, I'm trying to look up her name, Caroline Crampton, wrote an essay called I'm Done with Social Media, in which she basically says, look, I'm just doing busy work here. It's not making any difference. It's not actually generating buzz. It's just stressing me out and taking my time and occupying my precious, precious brain space. I am obviously paraphrasing. And. And Helen was talking about how she agrees with this because she has also just published a nonfiction book. And the fragmented media landscape makes it really hard to have a book be discovered. Now. What does that mean? Once upon a time, media was controlled by a few big companies. And so if you had a review in, I don't know, the New Yorker or Time magazine or New York Times or whatever it is, that review could sell books. And nowadays it's not like that anymore. People are looking to social media, and they're looking to diffuse and disperse places. And so selling a book is harder than ever because it's not like you put this material in one place, you reach a large audience. It's actually more like you have to put it in multiple, multiple places to hopefully reach multiple audiences. And she's talking about that. She's also talking about how this is true across the entertainment industry where the the business model seems to be spray and pray. Like you just try everything and pray that something will go viral. She is also saying like there is appetite for my content because I do other things. Again, she writes nonfiction, so she's an expert. And she's like, well, I'm wondering whether things need to be books. And that's actually a super interesting conversation too. But and anyway, the most interesting part of this though to me was a footnote, right? A footnote that reads, and I'll read this to you guys. I highly recommend checking out this article to give you a rough benchmark of sales figures in the period between January 2023 and September 2024. An industry source tells me the 250th best selling non fiction book in the UK sold 30,000 copies. The 1000th did 11,000 sales. This confirms my belief that most publishing is basically the same model as venture capitalism. Make a few best bets and the outlier success will hopefully pay for all the rest. If you guys watch Shark Tank, you know what it's all about? The sharks, they typically invest money in multiple businesses. Most of them do not make any money. Some make decent amount of money, but nothing that they couldn't get in a much better investment. Nothing that they couldn't get in a different investment that would be better. And then there is occasionally the few bets they make that pays for everything else. Venture capital model, right?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And that to me is so scary because I don't think writers realize this and we have to talk about.

[D]

Well, that's what I was just gonna say. Like, are you actually surprised about this?

[C]

Like, no.

[D]

I don't know. I guess I'm cynical where I'm like, I think I thought we all, I thought we all knew it was a blockbuster model. I thought we all knew that.

[C]

I'm not surprised by the model. I'm surprised people don't know about it. And I think that if you're going to start like if you're going trying to break into an industry, you need to know not just what your odds are but what the model is, is Right.

[D]

And that's fair.

[C]

Yeah, I don't think that's something people realize. I think that people realize it's like, oh, it's really hard to break out. And you see numbers like only whatever percent of books sell more than 10,000 copies or whatever it is. But, but do you understand that it's also a model where they are making bets on a lot of people and whatever breaks out is going to pay for the rest. Meaning even if you sell a book and they pay you real money, they don't need to recoup that money necessarily with your books sales. They're happy to take that loss and then just make up for it in a different model. Like that needs to be talked about because yeah, I don't think, I mean, I could be wrong.

[D]

And it's hard. Editor and departmental, right? And then publisher wide, like everybody's in their own buckets and their own ways that they're kind of connected vertically. But I mean, I guess all this to say so last week, which once you guys follow me on socials, I did six stats that every writer should know about publishing and talked about a bunch of this stuff which is like, it is such a small percentage of authors that quote, unquote, make it by financial standards, by brand standards, by market standards standards, it is a very small percentage. And again, it's up to you whether you look at that as glass half full, glass half empty. Like is this opportunity. Because that's what venture capitalism is, right? It's like we are going to make bets and those bets will pay off. That's what capitalism is, right? This is. These publishers operate under capitalism so they need some of these to break out. It's like Broadway plays, right? Like, not everyone's going to be a hit, right? Some of them are going to go on and you know, live on for decades and decades and some of them will have a very limited run and people move on. So it is hard to understand. And I think what's really hard is that authors get really excited about sometimes these smaller book deals to think like somebody wants my book and they're just so grateful that somebody wants their book. And then you think like somebody else, like yesterday, tomorrow, like this week, got a deal X times what you just got. And that is going to be the one that's going to be the lead title or the one that's going to get invested in more. And so this isn't to make everybody upset. This, this, this is also to remind everybody that that is something to work towards, right? So you can accept that smaller deal. That is okay. But again, eventually you want to hopefully work towards being that top 10% that is going to generate the equity and the resources and the revenue that is going to kind of create this umbrella that sprinkles, you know, all of this, these benefits across all of these different titles. So it's such a long game. And again, I'll just continue on my rant, which is like, like these books are available for Lifetime, right? This is lifetime sales. So there, there is always an opportunity for something to break out later or something to kind of pick up steam in a different way. A TV film adaptation, translation, sales. Yeah, there's just. There's just so many things to bring this back to Taylor Taylor. Allison Swift, I was just watching her on her YouTube channel that. Her YouTube podcast episode that she did when she talked about why she wanted to own her masters and how that was so important to her, and she said it was owned by a private equity company and she didn't want those rights to be left to so and so's grandchild, like, as a right. And so we just have to always have to remember all of this is a right. This is all rights sales. And so we have to think about the short term, the medium term, the long term, and how these are all in conversation with each other. And I think this loops back to what we just said about agents and why authors need agents. Because we can help you, you know, figure out how to navigate these things and hopefully explain to authors the blockbuster model, the private equity model, however you, or I guess venture capitalism is how she framed it, the venture capital mod, the blockbuster model. Because this is what TV studios do, this is what Broadway does, this is what publishing does. This is just what so many different businesses do, you know, to figure out what is going to move the needle. I don't know. It's just. It's such a noisy media landscape right now that we just never know what is actually going to happen and what's going to break through. But I am an optimist, as we all know. I have my, my optimist hat on always, which is I have been worked on, titles that are in that top 10%, that top 5%, that top 1%. And it teaches you so much about how the model works and who it services. And kind of bringing cici's note about power earlier, right? Like, and how you can generate power through that revenue and being in that top 10%, 5%, 3%, 1%, and how that power shift happens. It's just, it's really interesting.

[C]

And if you take away one thing from everything we're saying, I hope you take away the fact that you are an entrepreneur seeking an investment. You, listener, assuming you're a writer, you're an entrepreneur seeking financial investment. And put that hat on. Don't, don't let the artist hat beyond. While you're seeking an investment, please keep the artist hat. You'll need it to produce your beautiful works. But you are an entrepreneur seeking an investment, and that matters. The mindset has to be. It has to be that of someone who is asking people for money. If I give you a chocolate chip cookie and I say, here, taste this cookie, you're going to be like, yeah, yummy cookie. But if I tell you, hey, do you want to invest real money in main selling these cookies, like, we'll open up a bakery, all that, you will taste that cookie with a different perspective in mind and you will not just say, yay, yummy cookie, Basically any cookie. The bar becomes higher, the rules change, the game is different. You are an artist. Yes. You're a creator. Yes. But you are also at this stage, at the querying stage, submission stage, production stage, an entrepreneur seeking investment. And the biggest gatekeepers in all of publishing are not agents. They're not editors. They are not publicists. They're readers. The biggest gatekeepers are readers. And that's everyone listening to our show. I hope. I hope that's everyone listening to our show.

[D]

On that note, we are out. Thanks for everybody for hanging out with us.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines at www. Carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency. Beta Reader Matchup time is happening again. It's been so gratifying over the summer to be tagged in so many posts about beta readers who've become writing besties and who are still going strong many years after they were first matched. Some even travel to meet up and do writing weekends together, which sounds incredible. I can't guarantee any of that. That's entirely up to you. But what I can guarantee is that you'll be matched with a group of people working in your genre and or time zone who will critique 3,000 words of your work as you critique theirs. In return, you can sign up from now until the 31st of August, with the matchup emails going out on the 1st of September. Head to my website biancamarae.com and look for the Beta Reader Matchup tab.

[C]

What's up, everyone? This is Cece.

[B]

If you're a writer, then chances are you've wondered if your story is good enough. Maybe you're wondering that right now. Now I get it. Here's what I can tell you. As long as your story is making the reader curious, you're good. Now, I'm not saying you won't have to make edits when working with an agent or publisher, edits are part of the game. But I am saying that you will get ahead in your career if you know how to make the reader curious. The best way to do that Infuse your story with plenty of tension, conflict and stakes.

[C]

Which is why I'm so excited to.

[B]

Invite you you to join my four day course Writing Tension Creating Tension, Conflict and Stakes in your story. It starts on October 13th. My favorite part about this class is that there are formulas. Yes, formulas for tension, for conflict, for stakes and for the first time ever, we're having two optional interactive components including a query letter, Studio and Live critique weeks of select first pages. I'm super excited about this new format because I've seen it yield results in writers works and it works for writers of any genre as long as you're serious about improving your work. So if you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for this four day course. Don't worry if you can't attend live, the sessions will be recorded. For more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast's website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.