Podcast Summary:

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Episode: Shooting the Shit: What Agents Really Think About Writer’s Conferences, How Agents Get Good at Their Jobs, and What Actually Sells Books Right Now
Date: September 1, 2025
Hosts: Carly Watters & CeCe Lyra

Episode Overview

This special "Shooting the Shit" episode features literary agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra as they offer a candid, in-depth look into the world of literary agents. The episode revolves around what agents truly think of writers' conferences, how agents develop their editorial and industry skills, and a fascinating discussion about why major publicity opportunities (like huge podcast appearances) don't always translate into book sales. Along the way, Carly and CeCe share personal experiences, valuable advice for writers, and industry gossip, all delivered in their signature blend of humor, insight, and practicality.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life as Literary Agents (03:00 – 06:52)

• Busy Seasons and Deal-Making:
  Carly and CeCe open up about current projects: juggling contracts, TV/film rights, book launches, and scouting new nonfiction ideas.
  • Carly: “I just made a list of the five books that I’m going to be pitching… sent it over to our foreign rights manager, and she sent me back a fire emoji. So thank you!” (03:04)
  • CeCe highlights how moving agencies prompts even more networking and Zoom calls.
• Analogy Time:
  Carly compares the build-up to fall submissions with sports: “I feel like a little cowboy at a rodeo. Wait for my little gate to open so I can do my little rodeo.” (06:35)
  • CeCe’s counter: “Right before Easter, you know you’re going to eat a lot of chocolate... you might only have five cookies a day. And that’s okay. A girl can live with five cookies.” (06:52)

2. The Realities of Writers’ Conferences (09:55 – 26:40)

What Do Agents Really Think?

Conference Schedules & Vibes (07:24 – 10:59)

• Carly and CeCe outline their packed fall event schedules, including AALA’s “PopCon,” DFW Con, and the Muslim Literary Festival.
• “PopCon… is only for publishing professionals. So it is not a writer’s conference. If you are a writer and you're like, I want to go. I'm sorry, you can't.” – CeCe (09:43)

Agent One-on-Ones: Love, Hate, or Meh? (12:31 – 20:09)

• Agents Don’t Hate Them:
  “If an agent is there, their goal is to find something. Agents don’t go to conferences and be like, I’m just gonna hang out in the corner. The whole point—if anybody was to accept an invitation to go to a conference, it’s because they want to be there. Meaning they want to sign clients. They want to take these meetings.” – Carly (15:29)

• What Makes One-on-Ones Great or Awkward:

  • Organization matters: Poorly run conferences leave everyone frustrated.
  • Best Meetings: “Meeting with someone who knows what their story is about, is excited to talk to me about their story, and hopefully isn’t too nervous.” – CeCe (13:08)
  • What Not to Do:
    “I once had someone sit down in front of me and say, ‘I've pitched to you before. I'm here to pitch to you again. I won’t take no for an answer.’ ...In publishing, this is not going to serve you well.” – CeCe (14:07)
  • Physical Takeaways are Overrated:
    “So many writers want to hand me something... pamphlet, bookmark, business card... The best thing you can send me home with is the desire for me to want to read your book.” – Carly (18:00)

• Building Relationships:
  Carly suggests writers build rapport both formally (at the pitch meeting) and informally (at lunch/cocktail hours):
  “Do the pitch meeting, but find me also at an appropriate informal setting. . . . double down on building that rapport.” (19:30)

Should Writers Attend Conferences for Pitching? (20:09 – 23:06)

• Will Meeting an Agent in Person Help?

  • “It’s not going to make me like your story more... but it will make me read your story faster. Just being honest here.” – CeCe (20:46)

• The “Beauty Contest” of Agent Offers:

  • “Whenever I'm offering representation, we call them beauty contests... It's all your personality. Why do I want to work with this person and not that person?... It could be: ‘Hey, I met with CeCe and I just vibe with her.’” (21:12–21:54)

• Conferences as Brand-Building (for Everyone):
  “It’s also a brand building exercise for us. . . That author could hear you on a panel or go to one of your workshops and be like, ‘Oh, that person’s really smart’” – Carly (22:45)

Conference Pros & Cons: Logistics (23:06 – 25:12)

• Organized, well-run, and comfortable conferences are key—disorganized, windowless, or marathon-day events can be miserable.
• “One of the reasons I really like Kauai is because the pitches are outside... you go outside, it's like, all of a sudden, it’s like, super hot. Anyway, it is a challenge, for sure.” – CeCe (24:08, 24:29)

Conferences Change Lives (25:12 – 26:40)

• Personal anecdotes: CeCe met both Carly and her now-boss at conferences. “If you think about it, the reason why the two of us are chatting right now comes from a conference!” (25:12)
• “Conferences are influencing my life, people, you know? I like them.” (25:11)

3. How Agents Get Good at Their Jobs (Manuscript Analysis Without Being Writers) (27:56 – 35:15)

• Answer to Listener (Eve):
  • Editors/agents don’t need to be authors to have editorial skills. What matters: being an avid reader, spotting patterns/stakes/beats, and understanding story structure.
  • “I actually think that the best person to guide someone on their storytelling ... is someone who is A) an avid reader, B) very good at spotting patterns and understanding beats...” – CeCe (27:56)
• Agents Read Endless Drafts:
  “A good agent can spot potential. Anyone can spot delivery. . . . We spot the almost-there, you just need 10% more and you'll be there.” – CeCe (30:32)
• Editorial is a “Bonus”:
  “Please remember that the editorial component is an extra. . . . An agent’s job is to sell your work and to manage your literary business.” – CeCe (29:15)
• Carly’s Journey:
  English literature background, publishing school, learning from colleagues: “Nobody ever taught me how to edit. . . . The way that I’m going to direct you with my developmental edits is ... for the sake of storytelling for the most amount of people.” (31:08)
• Coaching Analogy:
  “A coach doesn’t have to have been a player... it’s sort of the same principle.” – CeCe (34:17)
• Every Agent is a Creative/Business Mix:
  “Every agent is a mix between business and creative, and whether it’s 60/40, 50/50, whatever, you find the agent that’s best for you.” – CeCe (33:43)

4. Substack Deep Dive: Why Big Podcasts Don’t Always Sell Books (35:15 – 46:18)

Amy McNee’s Viral Article: “I Went on One of the Biggest Podcasts in the World and It Didn’t Sell Any Books”

[Timestamps: 35:15 – 46:18]

• Amy McNee appeared on Jay Shetty’s massive podcast; despite high hopes, there was no “blip” in book sales.

• Notable Quote from Amy:
  “Artists constantly outsource their power to someone outside of themselves. We wait for the cavalry to arrive… None of the biggest opportunities I’ve gotten as an author, speaker, artist have made a measurable impact on my career.” (Quoted by Carly at 37:22)

• Industry Takeaway:

  • Even massive publicity (podcasts, TV spots, etc.) doesn’t guarantee sales—scaling book sales is harder than ever.
  • “We are living at a time where nobody knows how to scale book sales. Nobody.” – CeCe (38:36)
  • Read/listen-to action is rare: Most people need to hear about a book 3–4 times before buying (39:15).
  • Free content paradox: Listeners have so much access to the author (through podcasts, Instagram Lives, etc.) that they may no longer feel the need to buy the book.
  • Big podcast hits usually build author brands, not immediate book sales.
  • “Proximity to power does not equal power. … Exposure doesn’t give you freedom, money or certainty. . . I think it looks like success, but looking like success doesn’t mean you are successful.” (45:02)

• Advice for Authors Facing Costly Media Invitations:
  “If it’s your goal to sell books… then no. But if you’re thinking it’s going to further build your author brand, then yeah.” – CeCe (45:28)

• Name of Amy McNee’s Book:
  “We Need Your Art” (46:18)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The best thing you can send me home with is the desire for me to want to read your book.” – Carly (18:00)
• “If an agent is there, their goal is to find something.” – Carly (15:29)
• “I have heard you have to hear about a book three to four times before you actually buy it.” – CeCe (39:15)
• “Proximity to power does not equal power.” – Amy McNee (quoted by Carly; 45:02)
• “We are living at a time where nobody knows how to scale book sales. Nobody.” – CeCe (38:36)
• “A coach doesn’t have to have been a player… sort of the same principle [with agents].” – CeCe (34:17)
• “Conferences are influencing my life, people, you know? I like them.” – CeCe (25:11)

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 03:00 – 06:52: Agent life, upcoming projects, and pitch strategies
• 09:55 – 23:06: Fall events, conference realities, PopCon, and distinctions between writer and publishing conferences
• 12:31 – 20:09: Detailed breakdown of agent one-on-ones, what works/doesn’t, and best practices for writers
• 27:56 – 35:15: How agents build editorial chops, coaching analogies, and agent backgrounds
• 35:15 – 46:18: Amy McNee’s “Big Podcast, No Book Sales” piece; industry realities about marketing and sales
• Notable quotes (see above) are time-stamped throughout summary

Language & Tone

Carly and CeCe are direct, friendly, and unpretentious, mixing humor with honesty. They frequently pause to riff, offer real-world examples, and tease each other, contributing to an accessible, insightful, and often laugh-out-loud funny dynamic. They also cultivate a supportive, no-BS attitude that demystifies gatekeeping in publishing.

For Writers: Key Takeaways

• Conferences are valuable—for connections and morale, not just “getting discovered.”
• Agent one-on-one meetings: Be organized, concise, and focus on pitching a finished manuscript. Don’t obsess over physical leave-behinds; build rapport and curiosity.
• No magic bullet for book sales: Massive publicity may help your brand more than your current book sales.
• Agents’ editorial skills come from broad reading, pattern recognition, and market awareness, not necessarily from being writers themselves.
• Brand-building is cumulative: Success comes from stacking lots of little “bricks,” not from betting it all on one big break.

For more on the topics covered, follow the hosts, read Amy McNee’s Substack, and check out future “Shooting the Shit” episodes for more unfiltered industry insights.