Shooting The Shit: Shooting The Shit about what agents really think about writer’s conferences, how agents get good at their jobs, and what actually sells books right now

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Episode: Shooting the Shit: What Agents Really Think About Writer’s Conferences, How Agents Get Good at Their Jobs, and What Actually Sells Books Right Now
Date: September 1, 2025
Hosts: Carly Watters & CeCe Lyra

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Episode Overview

This special "Shooting the Shit" episode features literary agents Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra as they offer a candid, in-depth look into the world of literary agents. The episode revolves around what agents truly think of writers' conferences, how agents develop their editorial and industry skills, and a fascinating discussion about why major publicity opportunities (like huge podcast appearances) don't always translate into book sales. Along the way, Carly and CeCe share personal experiences, valuable advice for writers, and industry gossip, all delivered in their signature blend of humor, insight, and practicality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life as Literary Agents (03:00 – 06:52)

• Busy Seasons and Deal-Making:
  Carly and CeCe open up about current projects: juggling contracts, TV/film rights, book launches, and scouting new nonfiction ideas.
  • Carly: “I just made a list of the five books that I’m going to be pitching… sent it over to our foreign rights manager, and she sent me back a fire emoji. So thank you!” (03:04)
  • CeCe highlights how moving agencies prompts even more networking and Zoom calls.
• Analogy Time:
  Carly compares the build-up to fall submissions with sports: “I feel like a little cowboy at a rodeo. Wait for my little gate to open so I can do my little rodeo.” (06:35)
  • CeCe’s counter: “Right before Easter, you know you’re going to eat a lot of chocolate... you might only have five cookies a day. And that’s okay. A girl can live with five cookies.” (06:52)

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2. The Realities of Writers’ Conferences (09:55 – 26:40)

What Do Agents Really Think?

Conference Schedules & Vibes (07:24 – 10:59)

• Carly and CeCe outline their packed fall event schedules, including AALA’s “PopCon,” DFW Con, and the Muslim Literary Festival.
• “PopCon… is only for publishing professionals. So it is not a writer’s conference. If you are a writer and you're like, I want to go. I'm sorry, you can't.” – CeCe (09:43)

Agent One-on-Ones: Love, Hate, or Meh? (12:31 – 20:09)

• Agents Don’t Hate Them:
  “If an agent is there, their goal is to find something. Agents don’t go to conferences and be like, I’m just gonna hang out in the corner. The whole point—if anybody was to accept an invitation to go to a conference, it’s because they want to be there. Meaning they want to sign clients. They want to take these meetings.” – Carly (15:29)

• What Makes One-on-Ones Great or Awkward:

  • Organization matters: Poorly run conferences leave everyone frustrated.
  • Best Meetings: “Meeting with someone who knows what their story is about, is excited to talk to me about their story, and hopefully isn’t too nervous.” – CeCe (13:08)
  • What Not to Do:
    “I once had someone sit down in front of me and say, ‘I've pitched to you before. I'm here to pitch to you again. I won’t take no for an answer.’ ...In publishing, this is not going to serve you well.” – CeCe (14:07)
  • Physical Takeaways are Overrated:
    “So many writers want to hand me something... pamphlet, bookmark, business card... The best thing you can send me home with is the desire for me to want to read your book.” – Carly (18:00)

• Building Relationships:
  Carly suggests writers build rapport both formally (at the pitch meeting) and informally (at lunch/cocktail hours):
  “Do the pitch meeting, but find me also at an appropriate informal setting. . . . double down on building that rapport.” (19:30)

Should Writers Attend Conferences for Pitching? (20:09 – 23:06)

• Will Meeting an Agent in Person Help?

  • “It’s not going to make me like your story more... but it will make me read your story faster. Just being honest here.” – CeCe (20:46)

• The “Beauty Contest” of Agent Offers:

  • “Whenever I'm offering representation, we call them beauty contests... It's all your personality. Why do I want to work with this person and not that person?... It could be: ‘Hey, I met with CeCe and I just vibe with her.’” (21:12–21:54)

• Conferences as Brand-Building (for Everyone):
  “It’s also a brand building exercise for us. . . That author could hear you on a panel or go to one of your workshops and be like, ‘Oh, that person’s really smart’” – Carly (22:45)

Conference Pros & Cons: Logistics (23:06 – 25:12)

• Organized, well-run, and comfortable conferences are key—disorganized, windowless, or marathon-day events can be miserable.
• “One of the reasons I really like Kauai is because the pitches are outside... you go outside, it's like, all of a sudden, it’s like, super hot. Anyway, it is a challenge, for sure.” – CeCe (24:08, 24:29)

Conferences Change Lives (25:12 – 26:40)

• Personal anecdotes: CeCe met both Carly and her now-boss at conferences. “If you think about it, the reason why the two of us are chatting right now comes from a conference!” (25:12)
• “Conferences are influencing my life, people, you know? I like them.” (25:11)

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3. How Agents Get Good at Their Jobs (Manuscript Analysis Without Being Writers) (27:56 – 35:15)

• Answer to Listener (Eve):
  • Editors/agents don’t need to be authors to have editorial skills. What matters: being an avid reader, spotting patterns/stakes/beats, and understanding story structure.
  • “I actually think that the best person to guide someone on their storytelling ... is someone who is A) an avid reader, B) very good at spotting patterns and understanding beats...” – CeCe (27:56)
• Agents Read Endless Drafts:
  “A good agent can spot potential. Anyone can spot delivery. . . . We spot the almost-there, you just need 10% more and you'll be there.” – CeCe (30:32)
• Editorial is a “Bonus”:
  “Please remember that the editorial component is an extra. . . . An agent’s job is to sell your work and to manage your literary business.” – CeCe (29:15)
• Carly’s Journey:
  English literature background, publishing school, learning from colleagues: “Nobody ever taught me how to edit. . . . The way that I’m going to direct you with my developmental edits is ... for the sake of storytelling for the most amount of people.” (31:08)
• Coaching Analogy:
  “A coach doesn’t have to have been a player... it’s sort of the same principle.” – CeCe (34:17)
• Every Agent is a Creative/Business Mix:
  “Every agent is a mix between business and creative, and whether it’s 60/40, 50/50, whatever, you find the agent that’s best for you.” – CeCe (33:43)

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4. Substack Deep Dive: Why Big Podcasts Don’t Always Sell Books (35:15 – 46:18)

Amy McNee’s Viral Article: “I Went on One of the Biggest Podcasts in the World and It Didn’t Sell Any Books”

[Timestamps: 35:15 – 46:18]

• Amy McNee appeared on Jay Shetty’s massive podcast; despite high hopes, there was no “blip” in book sales.

• Notable Quote from Amy:
  “Artists constantly outsource their power to someone outside of themselves. We wait for the cavalry to arrive… None of the biggest opportunities I’ve gotten as an author, speaker, artist have made a measurable impact on my career.” (Quoted by Carly at 37:22)

• Industry Takeaway:

  • Even massive publicity (podcasts, TV spots, etc.) doesn’t guarantee sales—scaling book sales is harder than ever.
  • “We are living at a time where nobody knows how to scale book sales. Nobody.” – CeCe (38:36)
  • Read/listen-to action is rare: Most people need to hear about a book 3–4 times before buying (39:15).
  • Free content paradox: Listeners have so much access to the author (through podcasts, Instagram Lives, etc.) that they may no longer feel the need to buy the book.
  • Big podcast hits usually build author brands, not immediate book sales.
  • “Proximity to power does not equal power. … Exposure doesn’t give you freedom, money or certainty. . . I think it looks like success, but looking like success doesn’t mean you are successful.” (45:02)

• Advice for Authors Facing Costly Media Invitations:
  “If it’s your goal to sell books… then no. But if you’re thinking it’s going to further build your author brand, then yeah.” – CeCe (45:28)

• Name of Amy McNee’s Book:
  “We Need Your Art” (46:18)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The best thing you can send me home with is the desire for me to want to read your book.” – Carly (18:00)
• “If an agent is there, their goal is to find something.” – Carly (15:29)
• “I have heard you have to hear about a book three to four times before you actually buy it.” – CeCe (39:15)
• “Proximity to power does not equal power.” – Amy McNee (quoted by Carly; 45:02)
• “We are living at a time where nobody knows how to scale book sales. Nobody.” – CeCe (38:36)
• “A coach doesn’t have to have been a player… sort of the same principle [with agents].” – CeCe (34:17)
• “Conferences are influencing my life, people, you know? I like them.” – CeCe (25:11)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 03:00 – 06:52: Agent life, upcoming projects, and pitch strategies
• 09:55 – 23:06: Fall events, conference realities, PopCon, and distinctions between writer and publishing conferences
• 12:31 – 20:09: Detailed breakdown of agent one-on-ones, what works/doesn’t, and best practices for writers
• 27:56 – 35:15: How agents build editorial chops, coaching analogies, and agent backgrounds
• 35:15 – 46:18: Amy McNee’s “Big Podcast, No Book Sales” piece; industry realities about marketing and sales
• Notable quotes (see above) are time-stamped throughout summary

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Language & Tone

Carly and CeCe are direct, friendly, and unpretentious, mixing humor with honesty. They frequently pause to riff, offer real-world examples, and tease each other, contributing to an accessible, insightful, and often laugh-out-loud funny dynamic. They also cultivate a supportive, no-BS attitude that demystifies gatekeeping in publishing.

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For Writers: Key Takeaways

• Conferences are valuable—for connections and morale, not just “getting discovered.”
• Agent one-on-one meetings: Be organized, concise, and focus on pitching a finished manuscript. Don’t obsess over physical leave-behinds; build rapport and curiosity.
• No magic bullet for book sales: Massive publicity may help your brand more than your current book sales.
• Agents’ editorial skills come from broad reading, pattern recognition, and market awareness, not necessarily from being writers themselves.
• Brand-building is cumulative: Success comes from stacking lots of little “bricks,” not from betting it all on one big break.

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For more on the topics covered, follow the hosts, read Amy McNee’s Substack, and check out future “Shooting the Shit” episodes for more unfiltered industry insights.

Transcript

[Carly Waters]

What's up, everyone?

[Cece Lira]

This is Cece. If you're a writer, then chances are you've wondered if your story is good enough. Maybe you're wondering that right now. I get it. Here's what I can tell you. As long as your story is making the reader curious, you're good. Now, I'm not saying you won't have to make edits. When working with an agent or publisher, edits are part of the game. But I am saying that you will get ahead in your career if you know how to make the reader curious. The best way to do that, Infuse your story with plenty of tension, conflict and stakes. Which is why I'm so excited to invite you to join my four day course, writing Tension. Creating Tension, Conflict and Stakes in youn Story. It starts on October 13th. My favorite part about this class is that there are formulas. Yes, formulas for tension, for conflict, for stakes. And for the first time ever, we're having two optional interactive components, including a query letter, studio and live critiques of select first pages. I'm super excited about this new format because I've seen it yield results in writers works and it works for writers of any genre as long as you're serious about improving your work. So if you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for this four day course. Don't worry if you can't attend live. The sessions will be recorded. For more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast's website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.

[Carly Waters]

Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents Carly Waters and Cece Lira, where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. If you've ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug and pull up a chair. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of us shooting the shit. We're starting to get into the groove of what can we gossip about? What can we talk about? I also feel like we started on such a high with like the big reveal of the show and then Cece's jaw move and now we have to like, settle into the groove of the show a little bit. So I hope it will continue to be as juicy as possible as we go, but we won't find out.

Well, now our listeners will be like, no, no, you tell us all the time on books with hooks that after you escalated the tens tension, the tension needs to keep rising. So we're just gonna have to get creative.

I know we're gonna have to tip over some dominoes, but, yeah, we have lots of fun things to talk about. Yeah.

Speaking of dominoes, what are you working on?

Oh, gosh. So, yeah, this whole, like, quiet summer thing. So fun. So fun for everybody. Having a quiet summer. No, it's good. I like being busy. It's nice to kind of have a bit of a work life balance. But I have lots of fun things I'm working on in the middle of three contracts. I'm in the middle of a TV film deal. I'm hopefully going to announce these three book deals really soon, which is great. And I just made a list of the five books that I'm going to be pitching kind of out of the gate in the fall. So, yeah, I said, like, what they're about over to our foreign rights manager, and she sent me back a fire emoji. So I was like, thank you. I need a little, like, pump me up. So I'm good.

That's exciting. That's exciting. And we know. We know how high the bar is, so you should be very happy about the fire emoji. Yeah. I am discussing book launches with clients. I have two books coming out on the same day in November. Same day, Same day. I don't know why they do this to me. And reviewing contracts too. I'm in all the zoom calls. I don't know what it is about moving agencies that just makes people be like, hey, let's catch up. Which is great. Like, it's so great, but it's everyone wanting to catch up at the same time. Not a complaint, but it definitely keeps me busy. And I'm doing an Instagram Live with Shareese Fisher, who's at my agency. We're doing an Instagram Live on Thursday and Shareese is closed to query. So this is really a cool opportunity for people to get her take on stories, hooks, and stuff. If anyone wants to listen to the Live, check out the WSA Instagram. And yeah, I'm excited to talk about hooks. I've also been scouting a lot, Scouting a lot for nonfiction. I have so many book ideas and I'm like, let me find the people who can write these books. So that takes up a lot of time, too. It's fun time, but it's also time consuming.

Yeah, it's also hard because it's like that perfect alchemy, right? Where it's like, you can have this great idea. I don't know if you remember, Cece, but when you and I were in London last summer, I was in some nonfiction Meetings, like, talking about this idea, and I still never found anybody to work on. Remember the idea?

It's such a good idea.

Yeah. Like, I want to read that book.

Can you please get on it?

I know. I'm working on it. So, yeah, it's hard to, like, you can have the idea as the agent. I don't write the books. Right. One of the books I'm actually pitching this fall. And obviously, when this all comes together in a larger way, it will be very exciting and I can talk about it when it happens. But this author came to me via referral, and she had a huge platform, and we're like, okay, what is this idea going to be? What are we going to work on with you? Right. You have this great platform, incredible business.

I remember which one it is.

She sent me over all of this material, and so I was kind of like, ooh, now I get to be the sleuth of like, okay, she built this brand, has all this incredible stuff happening with her business, and then they come to me with all of this juicy material, and I get to be like, okay, where's the book in this? Clearly, you are an incredible person. You're a great teacher. Again, you built something. So how can I, as the agent, get in there with my little, like, toolkit? I don't know. I felt like a forensic, I don't know, scavenger of, like, oh, I get to, like, dissect all of this. Get in here. What's the book? And so I'm the one that kind of came up with the hook, and I pitched the hook to her. Okay, this is what you sent me. This is something you said. This is a line from an interview that you did. Can you build this out into a book? And she did. And so she built out this, like, incredible proposal. It's coming together so well. So it's one of those completely complete, perfect alignment things where, yeah, obviously it's all her. Right. All I did was pick at this and be like, there's something here. Right? How can we build this out? She built it out into this great proposal. So we're going on submission with it. Fire emoji from my foreign rights manager. So I'm really, really excited. I feel like the feeling is, and I might use some sports analogies, so I'm going to apologize to cece in advance. Sports analogies being this feeling of, like, in August. So we don't really sub things in August. I mean, some people do, and again, that's totally, totally fine. But most people kind of, like, take A little pause in the summer. Kind of go out on sub in the fall with their books. And so I feel like, you know, using my sports analogies, where as an athlete, before a race that you're supposed, like, taper down, right? You don't, like, go hard right until race day. It's like, okay, you taper down so that you recover, build some energy, and then you're really ready to go. Right. It's like, I don't know if anybody watches rodeos, right? They have the horses, whatever. They're the bulls. The bulls and their little, like, corrals, and then the. The cowboy gets on top, and then they're, like, waiting, and then they open the corral, and then the cowboy jumps up and does a little rodeo. That's how I feel. I feel like a little cowboy at a rodeo. Wait for my little gate to open so I can do my little rodeo.

I love that. I love that analogy. It's. Yes, there is a CC version of that. So right before Easter, you know, you're going to eat a lot of chocolate during Easter. So, you know, you might not have eight cookies a day right before Easter. You might only have five. And that's okay. A girl can live with five cookies.

Because you gotta build up the energy to get excited about your next cookie. Exactly.

For special Easter chocolate. So it is. It is the same. Speaking of, like, being excited about events, what are you gonna be doing in terms of events this fall?

Yeah, I was actually working on one.

We have one we're doing together.

Yeah, I know it's gonna be great. So we have tons of fun things going on. CeCe and I are both gonna be at the AALA people in publishing Conference. That one's coming up right away in September. September.

Or as insiders call it, Popcorn.

Popcorn.

I feel like it sounds like popcorn, but it's popcorn. Yeah. Yeah. Gotta be dramatic.

We're not speaking at it, but we are attending it. So other publishing folks, if you're listening to this cci, I'll be there. We're gonna go for the week. We're gonna do our little meeting things with our clients and editors. CeCe and I'll try and see each other and. And hang out. So I'm doing People in Publishing, Popcorn, the Muslim Literary Festival. I'm doing a virtual event with them in October. I am going to DFW Con, which is in Dallas, Fort Worth, Texas area. I'm going to be doing the Sunday keynote, which I'm very excited about. I haven't done a keynote in a Couple years. I love keynotes. Anybody who, you know, runs writers conferences and needs keynotes, I love doing keynotes. I like building in little analogies and metaphors for life and how that kind of translates to writing and how we build that out into storytelling. So I'm a huge, huge keynote junkie. So anybody that needs keynotes, definitely ping me, because I love doing them. And then in Ottaw, where I live, I'm doing the Ottawa Writers Festival. I recently joined the board of the festival. I don't think I announced that yet. I joined the board of the Ottawa Writers Festival. So I am participating in, kind of building out where they're going. They've been around for, I think, 30 years, so I'm definitely not new to the scene, but I'm really excited to join the board in their next kind of growth phase of how they're going to run the festival. So that runs pretty much through the fall, October through November. And that's me. Cece, where are you headed this fall?

That's exciting. So before our conference. Our conference. I'm now taking credit for the whole conference before Popcon. I have actually an event on September 12th that's called the Only Latine in the how to Advocate for Latinx Stories. And Melanie Inglesias Perez will speak at it. So will other very important people. But I have a book with Mel, so I wanted to go there and support her. And it's a networking opportunity and similar to popcon, by the way, listeners, we should make this really clear. Popcon is only for publishing professionals. So it is not a writer's conference. If you are a writer and you're like, I want to go. I'm sorry, you can't. It's only for publishing professionals. But there are other lovely conferences that you can go to. We'll talk about that later.

Is the Latinx Writers Conference in New York. Where are you going for that one? Where is that one?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's also in the city. It's on September 12th, and it's part of a larger writers conference, but this event is just for publishing professionals. So again, not open to writers. But then after this event, there's like a network working, kind of like. I think it's like a party, like a cocktail, I don't know, something like that. And then writers are encouraged to attend that one. So there will be an opportunity for me to meet writers, which I'm excited about. So I have that on September 12th. And then again the POPCON. When is POPCON? September 18th. I forgot.

17Th 17th.

Yeah, that week.

Let me pull up my. Yeah, you're right.

Seventeen. It's 17 of September.

Yeah.

And then I'm going to the Kawaii Writers Conference in November. There's also like a really cool event that I'm so excited to be able to talk about, but I'm not allowed to talk about yet in October. I will tell you, Carly, once we stop recording, but I'm not allowed to announce it in our podcast yet, but maybe next time I will in October. I'm very excited. Early October. There's a very cool event.

All right, well, you're building us lots of suspense, but yeah, lots of fun things coming up. The fall, as you guys know, is a very busy time. There's also Frankfurt Book Fair. Right. There's like all these other conferences going on, virtual stuff. And then we also have to do our day jobs in between all this. I am also going to LA in November to pitch some TV film projects for adaptation and meet with the co agents, things like that. So this will be. It will be busy. Cece and I will try to schedule these calls between all of these different travel events. Okay, so sticking on the theme of writers conferences and such. So somebody sent in this question and you guys know how I feel about your questions. If you want your question to be featured on the show, send us a good question. I don't know how else to say it. So this person sent in a great question at Lauren Cocker. She said, I'd love to hear you shoot the shit on writing conferences. Specifically agent one on ones. Do agents enjoy them or secretly hate them? What are the expectations of writers? Thank you. This is a great question because it's so hard to kind of get at the nuance of writers conferences. They are all different. Everyone has a completely different vibe and energy. I have been to some which are very kind of like small and intimate. I've been to some that are like huge. I feel like a huge festival. I've been to some that are really well run. I've been to some that are not very well run. So yeah, it really. It's hard to shoot the shit. It's actually fun to shoot the shit because there are so many different stories and different scenarios that we can talk about. But yeah. Cece, do you want to give your. Your high level take or where do you want to start? Do you want to start with the one on ones? Do we hate them? Yeah. Where do you want to start?

Yeah, I do think we should start with the one on ones, but I have to Be honest, I don't think that we can look at that in isolation. Like it is a part of the larger conferen. So we will zoom out. So I do not hate them at all. And I don't think most agents do or else I don't think we would do them. I do think like everything in life, like every experience in life, especially experiences that are intense. These one on ones are typically intense. So if you've never been to a writer's conference, picture a room, picture a desk, agents are sitting at their desk and every so often the person in front of us changes, right? And it could be like a 10 minute meeting, it could be a three minute meeting. There are, I believe there's a conference that's like a one minute meeting or something. I don't know, this depends on the conference. But it's essentially a situation where agents are meeting with people and it's like back to back meetings where writers get to tell us about their books. I enjoy the energy that comes with being around book people. I'm a huge introvert, but I discovered this about myself when I attended the London Book Fair for the first and only time I've ever been. And I'm like, book people don't drain me in the same way. Like I still need my alone time. But I enjoy being around book people. I enjoy book energy, I enjoy talking about stories. What I love is meeting with someone who knows what their story is about, is excited to talk to me about their story, and hopefully isn't too nervous. I completely understand being nervous. But I'm always like, it's all good, it's safe, you're comfortable, I promise you're okay. Sometimes too. I've met with writers who aren't super sure about their stories yet and they're honest about that and that's great too because what I like is a compatibility between what you've put into something and what you're expecting out of it. I think that's key. What to me is sometimes frustrating about these one on ones it comes down to two things. One, it's the organization. Some conferences I will never go again because it's so disorganized, like no one's keeping time, it's very anxious. I feel like the writers aren't getting proper attention. I'm not getting what I need to get, which is like to learn about their story. And so organization really matters. And going to a conference that's well organized is super important. The other thing I don't love too is, you know, sometimes I Once had someone. I'll never forget this. I once had someone sit down in front of me and say, I've pitched to you before. I'm here to pitch to you again. I won't take no for an answer. And I had to tell them, like, very candidly. I know that in the business world sometimes we're encouraged to practice a level of insistence that can be interpreted as determination. But for publishing, this is not going to serve you well. So I'm being candid.

It lacks self awareness. Let's just say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that it comes from the fact that there are instances in the business world where saying I'm not taking no for an answer can be really empowering and that can show ambition in publishing. It doesn't. Like, you need to know how to hear no and pivot and work on something else. Now, if they had come to me and said, I have a new story and I really want you to like that one. That's great. Like, that's great, you know, but if I've already said no to something, I'm not going to not say no again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's a. That's a great point. Yeah. I feel there's so many different directions to go in this. Okay, let's just. Yeah, I'll focus on the one on ones for a sec. I will say, you know, it's kind of one of those things where I am generally excited about them because the goal, if an agent is there, their goal is to find something. Agents don't go to conferences and be like, I'm just gonna hang out in the corner, or I'm gonna choose not to socialize, or, I don't know, like, the whole point. If anybody was to accept an invitation to go to a conference, it's because they want to be there. Meaning they want to sign clients. They want to take these meetings. And so there is a goal. It's not that we think we're going to sign clients everywhere we go, but there is an expectation that we're hopeful that we will see something that we like and something that is interesting. The best one on ones, in my opinion, are sometimes those really chatty ones where they're just like, it's not quite ready yet. I was hoping that it was going to be ready, but it's not. And I really, you know, really just want to pick your brain, because I always tell people, don't ever cancel if you set that meeting aside and you want to go and you paid extra for it or you're just, you know, it's, it's a competitive spot to get, just come and, and ask me any questions. I like those kind of those chatty ones because I think it does a lot for, it can do a lot for people's self esteem. It can answer a lot of questions. We can debunk myths and then they can just also just understand that agents are people. Right. Because they kind of, in general speaking very generally, they hold us up on this pedestal of like these agents are the gatekeepers. They're the ones that are standing between me and what I want, which is, you know, this published book. And we really are just the people in the middle, right? We are middle people, but we're incredibly educated and talented middle people that can again help serve you in your career. Yeah. So I definitely, I enjoy them. I don't hate them. They can be very long. We can be very tired, you know, if we have like, we have a dazed look at our eyes and, and are constantly looking for the Diet Coke or the coffee machine. You know, that's just because we need some, we need some energy to keep going. But yeah, I would never say that I hate them. I've definitely signed clients from them. Actually, one of the book deals that I'm working on right now, I found this person not from this book, but assigned them based on something that they pitched me in person. And now we're selling a book for them like years and years later. So you can form these connections that can turn into something which you know are everlasting and kind of can build into those, those actual client relationships. So definitely not hate. I would say if we are there, we are not hating on it. What are the expectations of writers? That's a much larger question because I think you're framing them again specifically in terms of one on ones. What are the expectations of writers in a one on one? Generally the expectation is that you will have a finished manuscript. And I know I just said that it's okay if you don't. I already talked about that. But the expectation is you're going to pitch us a Finnish manuscript. Because one of the things that happens is if a writer sits down and they pitch me this great book and then they don't have it done, I'll be like, oh, okay, well send it to me when you're ready, I guess. And again, that's fine. So you know, just letting us know that it's not ready if it isn't ready is fine. Other expectations, like some, I think some writers think that like you have to have a business card or like bookmarks and you have to hand me. A lot of people want to hand me something. I don't know if you feel like the cc, they're always like, like, take this, right? It's like a pamphlet, it's a bookmark, it's a business. Yeah. I'm like, what is this urge to send me home with something? Right. Like, the best thing you can send me home with is the desire for me to want to read your book. That's what you should be sending me home with. You don't have to send me home with a bookmark. Guys, like, come on. I appreciate you guys keeping staples in business, but yeah, we need to focus, focus on the story and that's what stays with me. One of the things I will say, like, how can you elevate? I think they're probably trying to get at, like, how do you elevate this experience a little bit? One of the things that I do like is kind of a combination of if, you know you're going to be pitching me at the conference, either come up to me beforehand at the cocktails or sit with me at a meal and just do the whole like, you know, sitting around the table together, chit chat and then just say, hey, I'm.

Going to pitch you later, you know.

Looking forward to it, and then walk away. Don't do the pitch there because the pitch is for the pitch. But you know, you can build a little rapport beforehand or pitch me say, you know, it's in the morning and then come sit with me at lunch after. Right. Like you can double down on building that rapport. You don't have to be like, I can only talk to her in the pitch sessions because again, if we're at a lunch, if we're at a cocktail hour, if we're at a networking event, we are there to work and chat. So I suggest like a formal and an informal. Right. Like do the pitch meeting, but find me also at an appropriate informal setting so that we can, yeah, just kind of build that rapport a little bit. That's always a nice thing to do. Yeah. Cc, do you have any other tips?

Yeah, I think one of the central questions I'm interpreting this, but I think when Lauren and other people send in questions like this one, they're saying, hey, if you as an agent have a slush pile, right, you have your query inbox open, what advantage is there to an in person meeting? And I think that having that clear expectation going in of what that in person meeting can and can't do for you is also super important to make the experience better for the agent. We want to work with realistic people, but also for yourself, the writer. I think that for me, I will look at every query you send me. And so you absolutely do not have to attend a conference to meet with me. I would never do that, and I don't think a serious agent ever would. That being said, like so many things in life, there is something special about meeting with someone and talking to them and seeing their face and hearing their voice and feeling their energy. It's so much of life is about energy. And so, of course, if you want to and you're able to, because I also know it's a big time in financial investment for people. But if you're able to, it's always a plus if you're excited about it and prepared for it. Because it's not going to make me like your story more. Right. Like that that will not happen, but it will make me read your story faster. Like, just being honest here. Right. Because you will have made me curious in person. And I'm like, I'm going to follow my curiosity. Another thing too is for me as an agent, whenever I'm offering representation, we call them beauty contests in the publishing industry. So when two agents offer on something, it's a beauty contest between those two agents. And we call them beauty contests because agents don't pay writers money. So there's no financial incentive to go with one agent versus another. It's not like, you know, one offer is larger than the other, which is the case when publishers make multiple offers. So with agents, beauty comes from the fact that it's all your personality. Why do I want to work with this person and not that person? And I think that if someone met me in person and got a sense for my energy, they will know whether they want to work with me or not. And if the answer is yes, then I will have a competitive advantage. So selfishly, writers conferences are also about giving agents competitive advantages. Because when we are in a competitive situation and that happens more often than you guys might think, then it could be like, well, hopefully an author will say yes. This other agent's really awesome. Hey. Hey. I met with cece and I just vibe with her, and I want to work with someone who I vibe with, and that will be the cherry on top. You know, the other agent might also be great. So it's also a selfish, strategic decision on my part to get to know writers like that.

Yeah. And I also think, like, to build on that. It's also a brand building exercise for us. Right. Because that author could hear you on a panel or go to one of your workshops and be like, oh, that person's really smart. They're taking this to a level I didn't imagine. Or whatever they said at that keynote really spoke to me. So it is a brand building exercise for us in terms of our relation to the industry and the writers that attended and things like that.

So 100%, yeah. And zooming out for the larger conference for writers, you guys can meet other writers, build a network, and for agents, it's the same. We meet other agents, we meet editors, and we continue to build our network. There's a lot of advantages to going to these. It's work, but it's also fun. I will say that for me, the conferences I struggle with are the disorganized conferences. I feel so bad saying this, but it's true. They are. Some of them are. And then also, and this is not the conference fault, this thing I'm about to say, being indoors all day, like from 7:00am to 11:00pm, like, back to back, it drives me bananas. Like, I need to go out and move my body and have my mental health walk, and there's often not time for that. So one of the reasons I really like Kauai is because the pitches are outside and you're walking and everything is outside, you know, and there's beautiful sunshine. And you guys know I don't like the heat. It's not about the heat for me, but I like, I, I cannot be indoors, like, in a, you know, cloistered.

Space full of air conditioning and being cold. Yeah, yeah.

Yes, yes. Honestly, you know which one I'm thinking about? We're not gonna say it, but, like, middle of summer, hot place.

Yeah. That's exactly what I pictured.

There weren't any windows. There weren't any windows. Not even a window. I'm like, I, I, I am, I am a human being. I was not born.

The air conditioning was, like, so cold. You go outside, you're like, are we in a different climate? I don't understand. Yeah, yeah.

And sometimes you have to walk outside just to, like, practice photosynthesis. Just be like, I'm gonna look at the sun and, you know, hopefully. And it's like, all of a sudden it's like, super hot. Anyway, it's, it is a challenge, for sure.

But yeah, the unorganized ones are brutal because I'm like, what am I even doing? Like, who's looking at the airport? What, What Time. Am I speaking? Do you have tech? Am I going to build slides? Like, what is happening?

I'm yelling because there's no microphone. I don't want to yell. My voice is precious. I will say this, though, and this was not a disorganized conference at all. But I met Carly at a conference. So, you know, if you think about it, the reason why the two of us are chatting right now comes from a conference. And I met my current boss, Wendy, also at the Kawaii Writers Conference last year.

Yes.

So conferences are influencing my life. People, you know, I like them.

And they changed your life. There you go. Yeah, no, I do. I do remember this. And from my perspective, it was a little bit different because I think this was so remind. Was this 20. 2019 or. No, wait, this is 2017.

No, 1919.

Okay. Because I was pregnant at this conference, but nobody knew and nobody knew.

Yeah.

And I just remember being like, you know, and that, like, can't really tell people. Not that publishing is a huge drinking culture, but there is, like, let's grab a beer after this, you know, happy hour. Let's meet up and hang out. It's not. Not a drinking culture, let's just say. And then. So all these people that I would hang out with all the time all know I love to grab a beer, have a glass of wine at the end of the day, and shoot the. No pun intended, about the conference and meet up. And it's a social thing that we do anyway, so I had to go there, go to the, like, agent happy hour and be like, I have a dinner to go to, so I can't have a drink right now. And I felt so out of character. I didn't feel like myself. Like, I. In many ways. And cece still liked me, even though I was kind of grumpy.

Loved you, became obsessed with you. The obsession started there, and I had to find out all the things about you. So, yeah, obsession.

It was because I was, like, acting too cool for school. I was pushing everybody away, I guess. But no, I do remember that. And then the world shut down, and we didn't see each other for a while.

The world shut down. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that was in Toronto. That was. That was a great one. So, okay. Yeah. So if anybody. I don't know, like, we can continue to build on this conversation over the course of us shooting the shit. We can talk about the conferences once we come back from them. If you guys want to know more, but any of you that have been to conferences, you kind of Know what we're getting at, right? Like, they're all a bit unique. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. You have to really think about what you want to get out of them, who's attending them, what the caliber of them is. So you can really feel like if you're going to do it, that, you know, there's a reason. Reason to do it. All right, we are going to throw to our sponsors now. All right. And we are back. I do have another question that came in. This is asked in kind of an interesting way, so you can kind of interpret this how you want, CZ, but I will read it to you from Eve Mitchell3016 on YouTube. Love the show. Love the banter from two very bright, amiable and spot on agents. One thing I've always wondered when it comes to literary agents and editors is how do they develop the skills to analyze manuscripts, to figure out what works and what doesn't, and make helpful and insightful suggestions that improve the manuscript without being writers? I asked this in the most respectful and curious way, and I hope it will be addressed in an upcoming podcast. I had, I had a little, little chuckle at the, at the approach of this one. Cece, do you want to kick us off with an answer?

Sure. I, I thought it was a really cool question. I appreciate it because I think embedded in this question is I think an understanding, an opinion that in order to know how to guide a writer, you must be a writer. And I personally disagree. I think that there are. That you can receive guidance from other writers and that guidance can be really special. Hey, beta readers, we love you. Critique partners, we love you. But I actually think that the best person to guide someone on their storytelling, not their writing. I will talk about that in a second. Is someone who is A, an avid reader, B, very good at spotting patterns and understanding beats. Someone who knows how to dissect a story. It's easy to spot this person. Watch a TV show with them for the first time, first time for the both of you, and they're going to be like, oh, and now the twist is going to be this. Oh, that is a red herring. Oh, that's a clue. Like, that's what I'm talking about. Right? And then another thing too, is someone who's very, very business savvy, good at positioning, good at building relationships, good at knowing how to pitch, which we won't talk about so much because this person's question is specifically about the editorial component of being an agent. That's how I'm interpreting it. Anyway, to Start. Please remember that the editorial component is an extra, that we do an agent's job. It is important that everyone remember this. An agent's job is to sell your work and to manage your literary business. There are agents who are not editorial, and that is fine. These are not worst agents because of it. They might not be the agent for you, but they're still fine agents. What we offer editorially is an extra thing we do. We do not charge extra commission for it. We have absolutely no incentive to do it other than the fact that we believe in your story. And I think that because we just observe so many stories, from inception to production, we are uniquely equipped. The fact that we are also flooded with stories makes us have the highest of bars, because I am literally reading 100 queries a day. So believe me, to get my attention, you need a lot. And people might be thinking, wait, that's bad. No, it's not. Because readers, of all the gatekeepers in publishing, okay, you might think to yourself, who's the biggest gatekeeper in publishing? Is it agents? Is it editors? Is it publicists? Is it salespeople? Is it booksellers? No, readers. Readers are the biggest gatekeepers in publishing because readers are ruthless, you know, to get someone to really buy a book, read a book, spend their time reading a book. And as agents, because we are flooded with material, we are actually primed to know what works and doesn't. We see drafts. Most readers who are not in publishing don't see drafts. They don't know what a draft looks like. A good agent can spot potential. Anyone can spot delivery. You know, your reader, you know what delivery looks like. A good agent spots potential. We spot the almost there. You just need 10% more and you'll be there. And I think it comes from that. I think it comes from that instinct for storytelling. How about you?

Yeah, it's a great answer. Nodding along as you were talking. You know, I think this. I can really. I feel like I can only speak to my own experience in this case, you know, And I hate making generalizations because I think I always think, like, we're just one podcast in this business. There's all these other people that do it other ways. My undergrad education was in English language and literature. So my job as a student was to analyze fiction, discuss fiction, think about it in a creative context and its context within the world. Then I went off to publishing school, where I learned everything from project management to sales to rights, et cetera, et cetera. So. So I am somebody that technically has the education to do this job. But nobody ever taught me how to edit. Nobody teaches you this. And even to agent, it was by witnessing other people do this job. And so the editorial piece, I did take a creative writing class in undergrad. I took two with a published poet. And she was incredible and very involved in the kind of literary scene in Kingston, in Toronto, Carolyn Smart, she's phenomenal. Shout out to Queen's creative writing. And from there it was really just about asking questions, about listening, about, you know, knowing what the assignment was. And I think from that very early age, I realized that I was never going to be a writer. I realized that I could spot, you know, who I thought was more talented than other people. And when you are in a creative writing environment like that, in undergrad or in any other capacity, you can see the people that are writing for the sake of writing, writing for the sake of their own ego. And from an early age, I could see I was much more drawn to the people that could tell a story and write a story in a way that was the most accessible. I was. I only cared about the most accessible stories. And so fast forward to me working in publishing. I work on commercial fiction, on market fiction. I don't work on experimental literary fiction. So I have always thought about the accessibility side of things. And so I have always edited towards accessibility in the sense of making sure that it is readable to the most amount of people. And so that is how I always tell my clients that I'm going to edit. I always say I'm going to edit as if I'm a reader. I'm going to edit for the reader, I'm going to edit for the market. And I don't mean we have to write to the market. I mean I'm going to add it to the market. So you write how you're going to write. And I am going to make sure that the way that I'm going to direct you with my developmental edits, with my structural edits, is going to be for the sake of storytelling for the most amount of people. And again, that's just how I developed my own skills.

Yeah, and you're so right. Like, your job at the end of the day is to make sure that your client's work can reach as many readers as possible. And that is what an author who can succeed in publishing wants. Like anyone listening, going, oh, no, that's not what I want. Yes, it is. It better be, because you want readership. If you were just writing for yourself, then why would you be querying, you know, like, Anyone can write for themselves, and that's awesome. That is a wonderful thing. Please write for yourself. Keep a journal. It'll be awesome. You will have fun. But if you're writing as a career, then your job is to find your audience and having that sensibility. I mean, we've worked together in projects for years. I've seen you do it. I've seen you read a story and be like, this is what I like. And this is what I think readers are going to like. And I think that's a very special thing. It's about knowing the audience. It's about having that. I mean, this is your line, Carly. Like, every agent is a mix between business and creative, and whether it's 60, 40, 50, 50, whatever, you find the agent that's best for you. And when was it Eve? I think it was Eve, the person who asked this question. When. Eve, when you're asking this, I get it. I think that in the same way that a coach doesn't have to have been a player or the best player to know how to coach, it's sort of the same principle, you know, Now I use the sports analogy.

But the players that become coaches have a skill that the others don't, but it doesn't mean it's better or worse. And I think that also speaks to agents, right? Like, we all come from different backgrounds. You know, you have a lawyer background, right? And you wrote books. And so you have, like, your own special background that makes you who you are. I have my own background that makes me who I am. And so every coach, every agent, every editor, everybody that you work with, they come to their career infused with, you know, everything that kind of touched them in their storytelling journey along the way. So that's why it's such a special business, and that's why this. We always talk about alchemy. I mean, I don't know if we. I always talk about alchemy in this business because you just never know when all this, like, magic and the stars are going to align and everybody's individual skills coming together on a project or what make it special. So I hope that answers your question a little bit. Thank you so much, Eve, for sending that one in. Okay, so now we have kind of like a juicy substack to talk about. I feel like we're starting to get into a flow of this show where it's like, we have our intro, we feature some questions, and then we find a substack that we, like, deep dive on. So the substack that we're going to deep dive on today is Amy's substack and the title of the article is I went on one of the biggest podcasts in the world and it didn't sell any books by Amy McNee. It was featured on July 31st of this year on her podcast. So Amy A M I E Amy substack. I went on one of the biggest podcasts in the world and it didn't sell any book. So I found this through a follower and a follower named Sonia sent this to me. So thank you to Sonia who DM'd me this one because I hadn't seen it and it got a lot of comments and likes. It has like 660 likes, 113 comments. So definitely a juicy one that was making its way around the web. So basically she went on Jay Shetty's podcast and she says, first of all, like, no shade to him whatsoever. He was a lovely interviewer. You know, he was a fan of her work. And then they had an incredible interview. So there's no shade. It's more just like so curious that she's like, she tracks this in a chart. She shows a little chart so you can see, like, was there a blip? So this is really interesting for a number of reasons. And she kind of like breaks it down. She's just like, I found this super fascinating as a creative professional that this happened and kind of did her little. Her deep dive on it. I just want to read one thing that she said in her post. She says artists constantly outsource their power to someone outside of themselves. We wait for the cavalry to arrive, for the leg up, for the good connection, to elevate us to quote, success, end quote. This podcast will save me and get me into the charts. If I get this gig, then I'll be untouchable. If I get a review in the New Yorker, my books will fly off the shelves. If this big label, big publisher, big director picks me, I will have it made in the shade. None of the biggest opportunities I've gotten as an author, speaker, artist have made a measurable impact on my career. So I loved, loved that quote. I think there's also just like so much for us to dive into from like the PR perspective to the sales perspective, to the brand perspective. So I don't know. Cece, do you want to talk about your high level thoughts or where do you want to start on this one?

Yeah, I loved this one. This one was so interesting. I especially liked the fact that when she told her publisher that she was going on this podcast, everyone Freaked out. You know, so her editor freaked out, her team freaked out. Everyone was like, oh, my God, this is amazing. Everyone was expecting a halo effect, which says a lot, you know, And I'm. And I'm wondering, like, yeah, yeah. Because listen, the truth is, this is probably going to be depressing for people, but it's reality, so let's just say it. We are living at a time where nobody knows how to scale book sales. Nobody. Nobody. I talk to editors. Carly talks to editors. We. We are always talking to book people all the time, including publicists, including PR people. How do you scale in a world where 85% of sales are direct to consumer? It's really hard. And, yeah, a podcast does sound logical, because I'm going to listen to a podcast. I listen to plenty, and then I'm going to go buy the book. But, you know, a question I have, if it didn't move the needle. So, two thoughts. One thought is, I have heard, and this tracks just as a human, like, this tracks for me. I've heard that you have to hear about a book three to four times before you actually buy it. So maybe being on this podcast is still awesome. I mean, of course it's still awesome because she loved the experience, but it's still one of those times, you know, like, you hear about it from a friend and then a podcast, and then you see. I don't know, like, you see something on Instagram and then you buy it. And the second thought is, why not? And I started thinking about myself. I'm not the best example because I'm a bookworm, but also because I have so much reading to do. But I started thinking about my own situation. Like, do I ever. Am I ever on a podcast? And then I buy a book. And I do, but not all the time. You'd think that every interview I liked, I'd buy a book. And that's not true. Just being honest here. I remember Jane Friedman. Carly, you might remember this. Jane Friedman came to talk to us at our agent group years ago, and she's a big nonfiction reader. And she said something that I thought was so smart. She said that she loves reading, she's a big nonfiction reader, but that lately she was struggling because so many of the books by the nonfiction experts she was buying. She had kind of the Curie knew everything that was going to be in the book, you know, because there's already a podcast, there's already an article, there's already a substack.

Remember?

Remember when she said that?

Oh, yeah. No, it makes perfect Sense.

And you need to have a platform to get a book deal, but then what's your book gonna be about, you know? And also, are you gonna go on a podcast and make people curious to read your book, or are you just gonna make people curious to hear more about you so they'll search for other podcasts where you were a guest, you know?

Yeah, I think that's one of the issues also with the attention economy, right? Because we're just, we're used to just having podcasts for free so we can consume all this information. But then you have to think about it. So even though you aren't paying to listen to the podcast, and I know a bunch of people pay extra subscriptions and all of this sort of stuff, so some of you guys do pay for podcasts, but most people don't, let's just say. And so the way that the podcasts are funded is through ads, not you guys, right? And so we are all, as listeners, very used to getting things for free. The amount of value that is in podcasting. I mean, let's pat ourselves in the back as well, you know, and we're bringing a lot of value, right, for everybody for free, which we love doing. And we do get compensated through ad revenue, through our substack revenue revenue. But all of these people are so used to getting such quality information. Like there are incredible, they're incredible podcasts out there. And so think about all these people that are listening to podcasts and not necessarily buying. So that, that could have been the audience that used to buy the audiobook. Now they're not buying the audiobook because they're actually listening to the author not only talk about their subject matter, but bring it to life in a foundational context with another really intelligent person person. And so if you're giving away, you know, the five best tips of your book, again, are people getting that much out of it? And then if you go, if you do a podcast tour, let's say not only are you on Jay Shetty, you're also on Mel Robbins, you're on, you know, Armchair Expert, let's just say, for example, right? Then people have that's three to five hours worth of content with you when your audiobook could only be eight hours long, right? So I think people are also used to the parasocial relationship they also have with creators where there is this expectation that there will be interaction. And so when we get to the book, it's like, well, this is just a one way street. Why, why wouldn't I go watch their Instagram lives. Go listen to the podcast. When I can be a two week.

That's true.

I have a lot of thoughts on this subject matter. I made lots of notes. Another note that I made to myself was, I think we're confusing podcasts for traditional media because morning shows used to do big numbers for books. And I remember this as an agent, like you would have an author on a morning show, you go on Amazon, like you'd be live watching it climb up the Amazon hourly charts as somebody is on a morning show, which is very incredible to watch. Podcasts are not traditional media, even though they are marketed us as a version of a modern talk show. Right. People right now are watching us on YouTube, watch me blather on about this, you know, and, and which is, which is great. But this isn't a talk show, this is a podcast. And people listen to it at different times, even though maybe they're downloading it at a certain time, maybe they're not also listening to it at a certain time, or they're only listening to a certain percentage of it. We also don't know necessarily like how much of every episode people are listening to. We know when you guys download it. I'm sure I could bug our sponsors to tell us more information about all drilling down, but I don't have that information. Another thought I had as I was making notes to myself was, so again, I think we're kind of talking about like, do these big PR movements or moments actually move the needle? I actually think they're more for the author brand or the creator brand than it actually is for the book itself. Because now when this agent goes to sell this person's next book, they get to say this person was on Jay Shetty's podcast. Right? And so it's like to me, it's part of a larger brand building exercise. And publishers put so much emphasis on the ROI of this PR hit for this book so that that marketing person can put that on their year end report that we got somebody on Jay Shetty and they did this so they could prove to their boss and all these like internal politics and publishing. So certain publishers are better at focusing on the ROI for the author versus just the ROI for the book. And I think that's a huge distinction, you know, that investment of the author versus just the investment of the book. What is the publisher's responsibility to the book versus the brand? And those are things that I think about. And it depends on the author, it depends on the publisher. But so I actually don't think this is a failure at all. And I don't think this author does either by anyway. But, you know, I think everybody should go read the substack. It was really interesting. Another quote that I really liked from the substack was proximity to power does not equal power. Being in collaboration or platform by a big name doesn't just make you a big name. Exposure doesn't give you freedom, money or certainty. We are told we need big companies, big names, big media to make it big. As an artist. I suspect all of this is actually bullshit. I think that proximity to power, big companies, big names equals a lot of text from your friends and family. I think it's good optics. I think it looks like success, but looking like success doesn't mean you are successful. And that's like such an incredible theme that CeCe and I talk about all the time on this show. I love that quote.

And, and it's so interesting how I had this conversation the other day with a client. So my client was. She called me and she was like, should I invest money? She was invited to be on this big platform. Not going to say too much, but she was like, I have to pay for my own travel. Should I pay for it? The first question I asked her was, it depends. What's your goal? Like, I took a page out of Carly's book and made it about what, what your goal is. If it's your goal to sell books, if you're thinking the conversion will be whatever, then no. But if you're thinking it's going to further build your author brand, it's just a great brand, then, yeah, because it's, it's again, it's about one brick on top of the other. And it'll, you know, you'll. At the end of the day, not the end of the day, but at the end of a long time, you'll have a house and the community building.

Right. You know, there's, there's so many elements and this business is so personal, so interpersonal. And some of these like quote unquote bricks we're talking about, it's like, are these people right? And how we, how we bond with people. So shout out to Amy. I also realized we haven't said the name of the book yet, so I'm like, contributing to the problem. So Amy McNee's book is called we need you'd Art. That's the name of the book. So shout out to Amy mcie. We need your art. Please go check out the substack. Yeah, Amy McNee, which is spelled a M I, E M, C N E E McNee. Yeah. Very, very. Well, it's not super long. It's just like, right to the point. And I absolutely adored that. So thank you, Amy, for putting that out there. Cece, anything else on your mind today?

No, we actually just got a publisher's lunch email with big news, big publishing news. But we can talk about that next week because it'll be. Did you see?

Did you see?

Yeah.

Okay, I just switched over to my.

And how is that going to affect the thing that I know you're thinking about? Yeah, I'm not gonna say it, but yeah.

Okay. Okay. Well, we got a lot of juicy stuff to talk about. Yeah. Rolling into the fall here we have the numbers from. We got the official 2024 publishing numbers. Publishers Lunch also sent that out. And we have some. Some juicy publishing personnel gossip that we will talk about next time.

I swear this is not just us planting curiosity seed. I swear. The email just arrived. Okay. It actually happened.

All right, see you next week, everybody.

[Narrator]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission [e-mail]. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.

[Carly Waters]

What's up, everyone?

[Cece Lira]

This is Cece. If you're a writer, then chances are you've wondered if your story is good enough. Maybe you're wondering that right now. I get it. Here's what I can tell you. As long as your story is making the reader curious, you're good. Now, I'm not saying you won't have to make edits when working with an agent or publisher. Edits are part of the game. But I am saying that you will get ahead in your career if you know how to make the reader curious. The best way to do that, infuse your story with plenty of tension, conflict and stakes. Which is why I'm so excited to invite you to join my four day course, writing Tension, Creating Tension, Conflict and stakes in your story. It starts on October 13th. My favorite part about this class is that there are formulas. Yes, formulas for tension, for conflict, for stakes. And for the first time ever, we're having two optional interactive components, including a query letter studio and live critiques of select first pages. I'm super excited about this new format because I seen it yield results in writers works and it works for writers of any genre as long as you're serious about improving your work. So if you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for this four day course. Don't worry if you can't attend live, the sessions will be recorded. For more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast's website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.