The Anatomy of an Opening

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: The Anatomy of an Opening

Date: February 19, 2026
Host(s): Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra
Guest: Mara Williams (Author of The Epicenter of Forever, The Truth is in the Detours)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the craft and significance of opening pages in fiction, with a special focus on how to captivate agents, editors, and readers from the very first line. Host Bianca Marais is joined by co-hosts and literary agents CeCe Lyra and Carly Watters, along with guest novelist Mara Williams, who delves into her unique journey to publication and her nuanced approach to writing compelling openings. The conversation also explores the genre-blending nature of Mara's work, the real role of writing communities in a writer's career, and the delicate skill of revealing secrets and trauma in fiction.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Importance of Interiority and Psychological Acuity

• CeCe Lyra introduces the episode by highlighting the role of "interiority"—the depiction of a protagonist’s inner thoughts—and expands on her concept of "psychological acuity."
  • “Plot is what happens. Interiority is how your protagonist processes what happens. And psychological acuity is why it matters. It gives a book depth and meaning and staying power. All breakout books have psychological acuity.” (CeCe, 00:19)
  • CeCe also announces her upcoming course on the topic for writers (details at [start/end of episode]).

Mara Williams’ Journey to Publication

• Building Writing Community:
  Mara credits her success to the supportive groups she discovered through the podcast and related community activities, like Books with Hooks, Deep Dives, and beta reader matchups.
  • “We actually met for about a year and a half every single month, we gave each other about 50, 50 pages or so... My core people that I met through Deep Dive have really been amazing.” (Mara, 04:17)
• Persistence & Multiple Manuscripts:
  Mara details writing six novels before landing a publishing deal, emphasizing how each effort refined her craft and resilience.
  • “By the time I got to my fifth novel, I really thought, like, this is the one... But ultimately, I didn’t land an agent with that book, and I was pretty devastated.” (Mara, 08:20)
  • She eventually sold her fifth book (initially rejected) as her debut once her now-editor requested to see other manuscripts.
• Genre Challenges:
  Her novels blur the lines between romance and women’s fiction, spurring a discussion on restrictive genre conventions and real-life complexity.
  • “I think my lens is always… there’s a lot of other sort of emotional wounds and subplots in there, which I see a lot in romance. But for whatever reason a lot of people were like, we’re not sure if it’s women’s fiction or book club or romance. And so… we sold under women’s fiction…” (Mara, 12:21)
  • Memorable Moment: Mara describes frustration with having to “pin down” books to a single genre when real life—and stories—are more complicated. (Bianca & Mara, 12:45–14:12)

The Anatomy of Mara’s Opening Page

Read aloud by Mara Williams (14:23–19:55)

• The hosts and guest analyze the effectiveness of Mara’s opening scene, in which protagonist Eden faces her ex and his pregnant girlfriend a week after their divorce.
  • Notable Quote: “I must have fallen for a billion little lies to wind up here unexpectedly, face to face with my ex and his pregnant girlfriend barely a week after our divorce...” (Mara, reading, 14:23)
  • Bianca calls it “an opening that grabs your reader’s attention. I was squirming while I was reading those pages. I felt so awkward. But I loved Cassie, because I'd be the Cassie in this scenario, and the juxtaposition between them was so brilliant.” (Bianca, 20:33)
• Craft Discussion:
  • Mara explains how the secondary character Cassie’s boldness serves as a foil for Eden’s reserved personality and helps move the story forward.
    • "Having Cassie as a best friend who always says what she means was a Juxtaposition, I thought was really important as I wrote…" (Mara, 20:54)
  • Bianca lauds the subtle delivery of backstory and tension in the dialogue.

The Delicate Art of Revealing Secrets and Trauma

• Mara describes her method for planting "curiosity seeds" and calibrating reveals of information—balancing between too-obvious and too-manipulative.
  • “I want my reader to have a sense so it doesn’t come absolutely out of the blue... Like, you don’t want to jump the shark at three quarter way. But what I do want to do is leave enough hints that the reader can sort of figure out 80% of it, but then be surprised by a little bit.” (Mara, 22:48)
  • Bianca expands on how trauma becomes part of a character’s identity and choices, which should show up naturally not just in exposition, but in small behaviors and reactions.

Process: Plotting, Pantsing, and Drafting

• Mara identifies as a "pantser" (writing by discovery rather than outlining), but makes sure to know her third-act explosion or “dark night of the soul” moment early in drafting.
  • “I am not a plotter... by about 10, 20%, I feel like I need to know what [the major conflict] is... if I can get to that point, the endings are incredibly easy. I feel like I’m just rolling downhill.” (Mara, 26:47)
  • Bianca and Mara share their love for writing the most emotionally low moments for their protagonists. (Bianca & Mara, 28:30)

The Value of Beta Reading—Giving and Receiving

• Both Bianca and Mara stress the importance of critiquing others’ work, not just receiving feedback, for growth as a writer.
  • “Once you are able to say to somebody, this works for this reason, or this isn’t working for this reason, that’s something that you can apply to your own work.” (Bianca, 30:19)
  • Mara notes that seeing others’ drafts and their evolution demystifies the writing process and sharpens craft skills. (Mara, 30:47–31:57)
• They discuss the challenge of “over-correcting” based on feedback, advocating instead for finding consistent trends in critique and staying true to one’s vision.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Why Interiority Matters in Fiction:
  “Plot is what happens. Interiority is how your protagonist processes what happens. And psychological acuity is why it matters. It gives a book depth and meaning and staying power.”
  — CeCe Lyra, 00:19

• On The Emotional Cost of Publishing:
  “At the time, it was probably... probably had some other words to describe it... [other f words].”
  — Mara Williams joking about her “fascinating” journey, 08:10–08:19

• On Genre Frustrations:
  “Your life is happening. Things are happening. People are dying... and then you happen to meet someone, and that is just a part of what else is going on in your life. So for me, I find it frustrating that there has to be—it’s just romance or it’s women’s fiction.”
  — Bianca Marais, 12:54

• On Secrets in Stories:
  “I want my reader... to sort of figure out 80% of it, but then be surprised by a little bit. But also, if you read it again, I want the reader to go, oh, I could have pieced it together...”
  — Mara Williams, 22:48

• On the Power of Critiquing Others’ Work:
  “Looking at other people’s work, especially in different phases… helps you figure out how you can work.”
  — Mara Williams, 31:33

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|---------------------| | 00:00 | CeCe on interiority and psychological acuity | | 02:24 | Bianca introduces Mara Williams | | 04:17 | Mara on the role of writing communities | | 08:10 | Mara details her multi-book querying journey | | 12:21 | Genre discussion: romance vs. women’s fiction | | 14:23 | Mara reads the opening of The Epicenter of Forever | | 20:33 | Analysis of the opening’s tension and character use| | 22:48 | Crafting secrets and revelations in fiction | | 26:47 | Mara’s approach to plotting & drafting | | 28:53 | Feedback, beta reading, and creative integrity | | 30:19 | The value of giving critique | | 31:57 | Episode wrap-up and closing remarks |

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Conclusion

This episode is a deep dive into what makes opening pages truly effective and memorable in fiction. Through Mara Williams’ publishing saga and her insightful craft commentary, listeners gain both practical tips and relatable encouragement. Highlights include:

• The need for community among writers,
• The value of both giving and receiving feedback,
• Navigating commercial genres,
• And above all, learning how to hook readers emotionally from page one.

A must-listen for emerging writers seeking to understand, write, and polish their own standout openings.

Transcript

[Cece Lira]

What's up, everyone? This is Cece. Do you know something I'm always looking for when I review the slush pile? Strong interiority. Well written interiority shows what your protagonist is thinking about in a way that is realistic and interesting. It propels the story forward instead of holding it back. But it doesn't stop there. A strong writer will leverage interiority into a superpower, into something I call psychological acuity. Think about it this way. Plot is what happens. Interiority is how your protagonist processes what happens. And psychological acuity is why it matters. It gives a book depth and meaning and staying power. All breakout books have psychological acuity. You have been asking me to teach a course about psychological acuity for years.

[Bianca Murray]

Years.

[Cece Lira]

Well, it's finally here. Why did it take me so long? Because my courses take years to build. They're dense, they're thorough, and they're filled with examples and specific techniques. So this five day course begins on March 2nd. We'll have an optional interactive component. Students are invited to submit excerpts from their work for a chance to have them critiqued live during a class. If you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for writing interiority and psychological acuity. Don't worry if you can't attend live. The sessions will be recorded. And for more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.

[Bianca Murray]

Hi there and welcome to our show, the shit no one tells you about writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary. Hi, everyone. Today's guest is the author of the Truth is in the Detours. She drafted her first novel in third grade in a spiral notebook, a story about a golden retriever and the stray dog who loved her. Now she writes novels about strong, messy women trying to find their way in the world. When not writing or reading, she can be found enjoying California's beaches, redwoods and trails with her husband, kids, and disobedient dog. It's my pleasure to welcome Mara Williams. Mara, welcome to the show.

[Mara Williams]

Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[Bianca Murray]

I am so excited to have you here. Because what I am loving this year is that I am getting to celebrate people who were on books with hooks, people who were at our deep dives, people who've done our beta reader matchups, which is incredible to celebrate all of you, and we're gonna get to that part shortly. For now, I'm holding up the COVID of the book we're discussing today, the epicenter of forever. Beautiful cover. For those of you who aren't watching on YouTube. Go and take a look and then I'm just gonna read the flap cop. We dive in from there. Eden Hawthorne spent idyllic childhood summers in Grand Trees, a mountain town perched along a restless earthquake fault in the heart of California's fire country. But her family and future were shattered there, and she vowed never to return until news of her estranged mother's illness forces her back. Twenty years later, still reeling from her recent divorce, Eden has to confront her mom's found family, including single father Caleb Connell, who blames Eden for the seismic rift that drove her away. But as they move beyond a battle of wills, Eden and Caleb discover shared wounds and intertwined histories and succumb to an attraction that feels fated. When her mother's condition worsens, Eden faces an impossible choice between the man she's falling for and the mother she's just beginning to forgive. And with time running out, Eden fears her decision will doom her to relive the aftershocks of past heartbreak. So, Mara, I'm going to ask you to share some of those first few pages for our listeners to get a sense of how you really open with an opening that's going to grab people's attention. Before that, can you discuss about your experience of being on books with hooks and the deep dives and the beta reader matchups? Because I love seeing in your acknowledgments so many names that I recognize.

[Mara Williams]

Yeah, absolutely. So I've been writing a really long time and I was one of those writers that I needed to prove I can do it, I could finish a novel before really dove into the ins and outs of how publishing worked. And so I'd written a couple of novels, really, before I was like, okay, now how, how do you get this published? I wanted to feel ready and like I had a novel that was publishable. And so I found, I believe I found the, this was a while ago now, but I believe I found the podcast first, maybe by happenstance, maybe online, maybe it was in the old days of, of Twitter, I think, when we're all still on there and kind of obsessively listened to try to get the feel of query letters, publishing process and all of that. And I heard about the beta reading matchup group and I thought that's perfect. And so I started. I, you know, I had a group of five authors and we actually met for about a year and a half every Single month, we gave each other about 50, 50 pages or so, 10,000 or so words every month. And we got into a really nice rhythm. And this was with actually my debut novel that I started with. And then I did the Deep Dive, actually twice. I did a weekend one, which was really incredible. And then I did the Long. I believe it was in 2023, maybe. And afterwards there was a writer, Lorene, who decided, I want to get all the romance writers together. And so she got our email addresses, organized us, we developed a WhatsApp group, and we started to meet monthly, less to read pages and more just to be a support for each other. And to where are you in the process? What's happening, what's going on? And from that group, four of us got agents within maybe weeks or months of each other. It was really just like a miraculous, amazing. And I'd been in the queried trenches for two and a half, three years, and so it just felt like this really faded sort of. I found my people in the writing world and the four of us went on a sub together. Two of us got deals pretty quickly and kind of the rest is history. So I think the classes and the partnership and the writers I met was so pivotal to this process. Somewhere in that mix, I also submitted what would become my debut to books with hooks. And that was probably February 2023 or so. And by that point I'd sort of been in the middle of querying that, so I'll pause there. But all of that was just incredibly helpful. And I think the biggest thing was developing a community. I wouldn't have survived through the ups and downs in the roller coaster. And it's really hard to establish community, I think, before you're published. I have lots of writer friends now that I've been published a while and in other circles, but my core people that I met through Deep Dive have really been amazing.

[Bianca Murray]

I'm so happy to hear that. I love hearing about the community that our community builds with each other because it is so important. And in Toronto, we have something called tawa, which is the Toronto area woman authors. And we meet up every two to three months, run by someone incredible called Lydia Laceby. And for the rest of you out there, there's nothing stopping you from starting the same things in your, you know, your cities, your areas, because it is wonderful to have WhatsApp groups and stuff, but honestly, getting together with people, real people, once every three months and sharing everything that's happening and, you know, leads on certain agents or just to commiserate is really, really empowering. So I would recommend that those of you out there who like taking the reins, this is something you might want to do. But also, besides that, Mara, your journey to publication has been such a fascinating one. So can you take us through that because it's really unusual and interesting?

[Mara Williams]

Yeah, absolutely. I love the word fascinating. At the time, it was probably. Probably had some other words to describe it.

[Bianca Murray]

Other f words.

[Mara Williams]

Yeah, probably.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah.

[Mara Williams]

But I think it was in 20, 2018, I think, when I was really like, okay, I'm gonna finish a book this time. I just decided, I'm gonna finish it. I have so many, like, a collection of unfinished manuscripts in the drawer that I just thought weren't perfect, so I wouldn't finish them. I'm like, I'm gonna finish it no matter what. So I finished my first, knew it wasn't ready, knew it wasn't quite right, wrote another one. And that's when I started querying, was on book two. And I kind of was tentative about it. I think I sent out like 30 queries total. And then I'm like, okay, it's not good enough. Wrote another one. Wrote another one. By the time I got to my fifth novel, I really thought, like, this is the one. I felt confident in it. I felt like it was marketable. I had the hook and the writing obviously had been elevated now that it was my fifth one. And so I really took queering seriously by this point. This is when I'd taken a bunch of deep dive workshops, taken a bunch of classes, developed some friends, had a lot of feedback on the novel. And so I queried it widely, and I will say books with hooks told me to take out my prologue. It broke my heart. I took out my prologue, and I'm still a big, fierce advocate for. For prologues when they're necessary, so I'll put that out there. But in that one, I took out the prologue, and I had a ton of full requests. So I thought, okay, this is going.

[Bianca Murray]

To be the one.

[Mara Williams]

But ultimately, I didn't land an agent with that book, and I was pretty devastated. I think I took the others in stride. But, you know when you have a feeling like a gut, like, I just think, this is the book. I think this is my debut. And. But I it in the drawer, and I still had some full requests out, but, you know, unfortunately, sometimes people don't, like, reply to full requests and you kind of get ghosted. And so I wasn't going to wait another, you know, six months to a year. So I'd written Another book by this point it was my sixth book, sent it out and with very quickly I got an offer on that sixth book and then I got another offer. And so I was debating between them, chose, you know, my, my now agent who's amazing. And when we went out on sub with that book we got some initial. But I think a lot of the feedback that I've gotten throughout the course of my writing is I like your voice. I don't know what genre is, I can't sell it. And I always think I'm writing romance. Like I just, I feel like I'm writing romance. It's a central love story, there's a happily ever after. But I think my lens is always I. There's a lot of other sort of emotional wounds and some subplots in there, which I see a lot in romance. But for whatever reason a lot of people were like, we're not sure if it's women's fiction or book club or romance. And so when we sent out that book on sub, my editor said, I really love this. Again, love her voice. Not sure what genre it is, but I see on her website she has a, you know, a backlog of books. Can you send me another one so I can figure out where I can place her? Because my editor happened to sort of acquire for women's fiction and romance. And so we sent her another book which was my book five, the one I'd queried widely and they ended up acquiring that one. So the one that I thought was my debut the whole time, I just really it's. The truth is in the Detours, the one that was on books with hooks that I started with my beta reading matchup group that I just really polished and to the point where if I'd done any more I would have messed it up. And so they acquired that one and that became my debut and I got a two book deal. So the Epicenter of Forever is my second book in that which was. I'd already finished again by the time I got the deal. It was my seventh book and the sixth book is still in the drawer. Maybe it'll come back out another time.

[Bianca Murray]

Wow. All these resurrected books. I absolutely love it. And this was going to be my question on Epicenter of Forever in terms of genre. I was sitting going, you know, I'm not someone who needs to pin down genre because Lord knows my genres are all over the place. But I was like, is this woman's fiction with a love story? It feels like that to me. It doesn't feel like Centrally, a romance. So what did you guys decide when it came to the genre?

[Mara Williams]

So, ultimately, we sold under women's fiction, and I think my book 3 is definitely more women's fiction than romance. But again, there's always like that. That love story that's really, really prominent. And so it is. It does blur the lines. It's kind of for those who really love a romance with maybe a side of family dysfunction and trauma and a little bit of, you know, a side adventure.

[Podcast Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Bianca Murray]

But I mean, the thing is, it is frustrating that it's expected to kind of be one or the other, because romance doesn'. In a vacuum, you know?

[Mara Williams]

Yeah.

[Bianca Murray]

Your life is happening. Things are happening. People are dying. There's people you aren't speaking to. There's a pandemic, whatever's happening in the world. And then you happen to meet someone, and that is just a part of what else is going on in your life. So for me, I find it frustrating that there has to be. It's just romance or it's women's fiction, et cetera.

[Mara Williams]

Yeah. And I think that's the lens I bring to it. Like, I'm an avid romance reader. I read a lot of women's fiction. A lot. I read broadly. But I think the books I always gravitated to as a reader for all time is I liked these books with, you know, a lot of plot where there was a love story that I could really attach onto and fall in love with. And also, you're right, I think, in real life, when I think about telling a love story, that feels relatable to me, it's about all the other stuff that's going on. I think we can all attest that there's no relationship that happens in a vacuum without it being influenced by family, by career, by, you know, tragedy by trauma, by, you know, all of these other things that make us who we are. And so that's the lens I bring to it. And I do consider myself a romance author, but I think I am, like, sitting really on. On the edge based on sort of really strict genre conventions.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it's a good thing. It means you can appeal to a wider audience. Okay. Will you read us a excerpt from chapter one for us, please? Sure.

[Mara Williams]

I must have fallen for a billion little lies to wind up here unexpectedly, face to face with my ex and his pregnant girlfriend barely a week after our divorce. As my failed marriage flashes before my eyes, I tally every deceit and decide the cruelest one was his reason for leaving. We only hit one note he said, with a single suitcase in hand. Of course, I didn't know he was lying then, even though the truth should have been obvious. Cheating, after all, is part of my origin story. Eden, wow, jeff says in the polite tone reserved for acquaintances. What a surprise. It's nice to see you. I have no idea how I feel about seeing him because I can't look away from the woman holding his hand. I'm disappointed in myself that my first thought is a petty one. She's pretty, but not beautiful. She has mousy brown hair that frizzes at her temples, flat blue eyes framed by blunt lashes, and over plucked brows. I'm not sure I'd notice her if she weren't flaunting the evidence of Jeff's betrayal with a full abdomen. That does the math for me. My second thought is a devastating one. I bet this new girlfriend round with the baby Jeff refused to give me must play him a motherfucking symphony. You too. I accept Jeff's hug. I don't think to hold my breath, forgetting scent memories. The most stubborn I'd bought him this Tom Ford cologne on the last anniversary we celebrated together. Memories of that day invade like an occupying force. Baker beach at dusk. Takeout coffee cooling in my palms, fog so thick we couldn't see the bridge. Eden, this is Nadia. Nadia, this is Eden. Nadia, Nadia, Nadia. The name is familiar, but less potent than the cologne. It's nice to meet you, Eden. Nadia extends her hand. It's disorienting to live in two worlds at once. Internally, I'm devastated by the delayed realization that my marriage ended in infidelity. I'm furious that Jeff fed me a half truth drenched in a sad metaphor, and I fell for it. But externally, I'm politely shaking the hand of the woman he must have been sleeping with while I did his laundry and bought his mom's birthday present. Worst of all, my irrational composure validates Jeff's frequent complaint that I'm incapable of passionate emotions. And maybe he's right. I should be yelling, screaming, crying. Instead, I'm undergoing a system reboot. Cassie emerges from the restroom and steps into the cramped cafe lobby. Her gaze darts from me to Jeff to Nadia, drawing immediate conclusions. Jeffrey, what a surprise, she says. Who's this? Jeff's face goes pale. Somehow I didn't suspect he was a cheating scumbag, but I can tell he's scared shitless by the look on Cassie's face.

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[Mara Williams]

Nadia and Nadia takes it, giving a good impression of nonchalance if her left eye weren't twitching. I'm Cassie, Eden's best friend. their wedding I gave a speech about what a nice guy Jeff was, but I guess even smart women get duped by assholes. Cassie, jeff warns. Cassie cocks her head toward Nadia's pregnant belly. Yours. Jeff looks at me before pursing his lips and nodding congratulations. When are you due? Cassie asks Nadia, the hard edge of her voice smooth to velvet. Nadia hesitates, looks at Jeff, whose gaze is ensnared with mine, and stutters. Friday wow.

[Bianca Murray]

Talk about an opening that grabs your reader's attention. I was squirming while I was reading those pages. I felt so awkward. But I loved Cassie because I'd be the Cassie in this scenario, and the juxtaposition between them was so brilliant. Was this always your opening or was it an opening you had to work with?

[Mara Williams]

Actually, it was always my opening, I think. I work on opening pages so much and so deliberately each time, and sometimes it's what I revise the most. But for whatever reason, I think that opening sentence was the opening sentence, the opening scene. There was a lot of finessing, but I didn't go back and forth of maybe I should start here, maybe I should start here. Like I do with a lot of my novels. It is the hardest part, I think, but for whatever reason, sometimes it's easier than others. And I just saw it, I felt it. And you're right, the juxtaposition. I think Eden's arc is really to get more in touch with her feelings and be able to say what she means when she means it. And having Cassie as a best friend who always says what she means was a Juxtaposition, I thought was really important as I wrote, was a great example.

[Bianca Murray]

Of using a secondary character so effectively, because the fact that Jeff is more terrified of Cassie than what he is of his ex wife, who didn't know that he had a baby with somebody else, says a lot, you know, and then the conversation that follows gives us kind of hints of backstory, etcetera, but not so much that we drag back into it. So a really, really great example of effectively leveraging that. That secondary character. Okay. Another thing to write that is difficult is writing secrets that one character knows that another doesn't, right? To create this kind of tension where clearly there's a curiosity seed, something has happened, but we don't know what's happened. And so turning the pages to find out what happened, but the other character doesn't know this. So for you, how do you know how to calibrate this kind of thing? How far do you push it? And is this where your beta readers come in handy, being able to say, okay, this needs to be revealed now I'm feeling manipulated. This, this is always something that some writers do instinctually and others are like, no, I need people to help me. So how. How did you go about that?

[Mara Williams]

That. That is such a good question. I think it depends on the book. So this one, I felt it was a little bit more natural. I knew what the secret was, I knew why she was withholding it, but, you know, there were little. I didn't want it to feel like she was intentionally withholding it. So I think sometimes when you have a trauma in your, in your backstory, I feel kind of strongly about this that you don't think like, oh, that time that XYZ happened, I was really sad. You sort of. It's in your, your body language, it's in how you approach certain things. It's in really adapt to the environment around you. You may have a feeling, like you see something that reminds you of it and you look away. And so there are a lot of those hints throughout where, you know, an astute reader can figure out at least, you know, 80, 90%. And I, and I want my reader to have a sense so it doesn't come absolutely out of the blue. They're like, oh, I didn't see that coming, or I didn't see anything coming, or I thought it was this. But actually, you know, it's something entirely different. Like, you don't want to jump the shark at three quarter way. But what I do want to do is leave enough hints that the reader can Sort of figure out 80% of it, but then be surprised by a little bit. But also, if you read it again, I want the reader to go, oh, I could have pieced it together. I see the hints there and there and there and there. They weren't intentionally trying to deceive me. They were. The character was just going about their world in their mind. They know what's happened. They're not going to tell the reader. Kind of like backstory, like here this traumatic moment happened in this explicit way. So usually with reveals, you know, for this one particularly, it's in dialogue. And so I do feel pretty strongly about it that it has to be a balance between giving the reader enough of a hint so they don't feel gaslit, I think, by the book. But also not so much that there aren't some, you know, a gasp or a surprise or like, wow, I didn't know it was that bad, or whatever. Whatever. That surprises for this book in particular, I think, because I knew what happened, because I knew the players that would know what happened didn't know what happened, why they wouldn't know felt somewhat natural. But it's a funny question you ask because I'm currently writing another one where there's a surprise as well. And I just got beta reader feedback that's conflicting, like, oh, I want to know more here. And some others were like, nope, it was perfect. I knew I kind of figured it out, but not entirely. Don't change it. And so I'm really. I think one of the most important things about learning to write is I was always really good about taking feedback. I took a lot of feedback. But what I've had to learn is, like, sometimes you don't take feedback because you can't please every reader. And you have to write the book for the people who need it. You have to find your audience. And sometimes you're getting feedback from people who wouldn't be your audience anyway. So it's a really difficult balance to strike, I think. But for whatever reason, in this book, it was a little bit easier than some others I've written.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, two really interesting things you've said there. One, like, trauma becomes a part of our body. It becomes so ingrained in our identity. Most of the times we are making so many decisions in our lives. The things we avoid, the people we're attracted to, the people we don't want to be around, the situations we put ourselves in are linked to that trauma, and we're not even consciously aware of it. So I love that making all of that it's almost like the misbelief or the character's wound so integral to who they are that when we go back, we like. Of course, that person would do these kinds of things based on what happened to them. I really like that. Do you plot everything out? Because what I will do. I know you said that you knew what was happening, but for me, as I write and I figure out what's happening, then I reverse engineer, and then I can come and put those curiosity seeds in so that it felt like it was going to be that way all the time, even though I only figured it out on, like, page 120. Yeah.

[Mara Williams]

I am not a plotter. I think there's, you know, a spectrum. I Sometimes I just get started and I have had manuscripts that I pants so much that I couldn't figure out what happened next, and I had to put them aside. But I am. I am a panther. I only. I don't force myself to sit down and plot, I guess is a. Is a better way of doing it. I do buy the 10%. Mark. Want to figure out, okay, what is the explosion going to be in the third act? Not a literal explosion. Something sometimes, but most of the time, some emotional explosion. I want to see where that conflict is, because if I don't have that a. It's my favorite part to write.

[Cece Lira]

I love.

[Mara Williams]

I love when everything goes south and it's all messed up and you have to figure out how to put it back together. But also, I want to make sure there's enough gas in the tank of the novel to get me there. So by about 10, 20%, I feel like I need to know what that is. And if I know what that is, I can take a lot of detours and not know where, you know, where I'm going in the next chapter. As long as I know where the almost final destination is. And from there, if I can get to that point, the endings are incredibly easy. I feel like I'm just rolling downhill. Like, I know how to close it out most of the time. Sometimes I really screw everything up. So in this case, I think I had. I knew actually the idea for the book was the third act, so I knew what had happened and was really driving the book to that point. But I'm not a plotter and let myself sort of discover. And I want to be surprised, and I want to go, oh, gosh, I did not see that coming. I didn't know they were going to do that. That's what keeps the writing part interesting for me, is that Creative process.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, same. And I love that long, dark night of the soul for the character when all seems lost and completely bleakness and then they have to rebuild themselves up and come back. Something you were saying as well about the beta readers, and that's so important because as important as it is to get people reading your work and critiquing your work, I was the same as you in the beginning because I'm a chronic people pleaser.

[Mara Williams]

Yes.

[Bianca Murray]

Any bit of feedback I would get, I would change it. And eventually it lost all sense of the vision I had for it. So it is so important to look for consistency. Especially, like, if you have three or four beta readers. If one says, I wanted more, the other three say, no, it's calibrated perfectly, then you go with the majority. And sometimes you'll have the majority say something and you still feel strongly about it. And then in that instance, instead of saying, I'm going to ignore everyone, you say, why didn't it land for you? How can I improve it so that it does land for you? Because I feel quite strongly about keeping this in. And that comes with time and experience with. With. With beta readers. Right?

[Mara Williams]

Absolutely. I think it's always a delicate dance. Like, I was having a conversation literally last night as I received some beta reader feedback, and there's a part I feel really strongly about, but I'm like, there's a truth in their feedback. I have to figure out how to address it. Even if it's not based on their recommendation. They say, this isn't working. Here's what I think you need to do. You take the, here's what's not working, but you don't have to take. Here's what you need to do to fix it. You can fix it in a different way that still aligns to your vision. And it's really. It takes a lot of trial and error and a lot of practice and a lot of confidence. I think part of finding your voice is finding that, like, figuring out what feedback to take and what feedback not to take.

[Bianca Murray]

And something I want to ask you there is, because I know every time I do a beta reader matchup, I know that 90% of people just want their work critiqued. They want their work critiqued and they want to go with that. But I found that I became a much better writer when I started critiquing other people's work, not by just having my work critiqued, because once you are able to say to somebody, this works for this reason, or this isn't working for this reason, that's something that you can apply to your own work.

[Mara Williams]

Oh, for sure. I think I do a lot of beta reading and I have, you know, a wide variety of critique partners, and I think sometimes it's just providing a little bit of feedback. I've also gotten better at that, at realizing, okay, this isn't what I would do, and sort of reverse engineering that, making sure that I'm not trying to give them advice based on how I would write it, but how to make their vision better. And it's a skill honed over time, and I think I've gotten a lot better at it. And I'm still at a point where I always say yes, which is probably getting me into a little bit of trouble. But I think looking at other people's work, especially in different phases, I think when we're just starting out, all we see are the finished books and the finished products that have been edited and polished. But seeing that process for other people and seeing how other people work helps you figure out how you can work. You know, I've now seen quite a few books from their first draft to publication. And realizing how much change and shifting and evolution goes in is incredibly helpful. And how to be helpful, how to see what's not working and how to make a recommendation of how they might fix it has really helped me fix things in my own manuscripts, for sure.

[Bianca Murray]

Yeah, I really, really agree with that. Well, we passed our time, everyone. I'm holding up the book cover, the Epicenter of Forever, Mara Williams. We are linking to this on our bookshop.org affiliate page. If you buy the book there, you support the podcast and an independent bookstore at the same time. Mara loved the book and love chatting with you and wishing you all the best with it.

[Mara Williams]

Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me. I had a great time.

[Bianca Murray]

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CeCe, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency. And the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency.

[Cece Lira]

What's up everyone? This is cece. Do you know something I'm always looking for when I review the slush file? Strong interiority. Well written interiority shows what your protagonist is thinking about in a way that is realistic and interesting. It propels the story forward instead of holding it back. But it doesn't stop there. A strong writer will leverage interiority into a superpower, into something I call psychological acuity. Think about it this way. Plot is what happens. Interiority is how your protagonist processes what happens. And psychological acuity is why it matters. It gives a book depth and meaning and staying power. All breakout books have psychological acuity. You have been asking me to teach a course about psychological acuity for years.

[Bianca Murray]

Years?

[Cece Lira]

Well, it's finally here. Why did it take me so long? Because my courses take years to build. They're dense, they're thorough, and they're filled with examples and specific techniques. So this five day course begins on March 2nd. We'll have an optional interactive component. Students are invited to submit excerpts from their work for a chance to have them critiqued live during a class. If you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for writing Interiority and Psychological Acuity. Don't worry if you can't attend live. The sessions will be recorded and for more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.