← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Black List: The Future of Storytelling
00:39:28
Franklin Leonard and Randy Winston
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- [00:01]
Bianca Marais
Omg. Have you seen the Deep Dive Virtual retreat lineup for the 1st and 2nd of February? It's incredible. Gatekeepers galore. As well as the authors who managed to get past them, we've got the editors and agents who worked on phenomenal projects like Station 11, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, Crazy Rich Asians, the Flight Attendant, Maame Wayward, the Wife Upstairs, the Tinder Swindler, Big Little Lies, the Perfect Couple, the Other Black Girl, and so much more. The presentation topics are brilliant, so practical and valuable regardless of where you are in your writing journey. One of our speakers, the brilliant Annabel Monaghan, who wrote the best selling Nora Goes Off Script, was a delegate at the very first Deep Dive Retreat and now she's kicking butt all over the place. Coming back to present. That could be you one day. Those of you who take part in the Thousand Words of Summer will also be super excited to see the fabulous Jami Attenberg in the lineup as well. Trust me, you do not want to miss this. Head to our website, theshitaboutwriting.com go to the deep Dive page to see more information and and to register. We hope to see you there. Hi there and welcome to our show, the shit no one tells you about writing. I'm Bianca Marais and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Leera from PS Literary Agency.
- [01:42]
Carly Waters
Hello to all of our lovely listeners. You do not have Bianca today. You have Carly and Cece here hosting our very special interview. We had some people reach out to us to come on our show and usually we have no shortage of people pitching us and ready to be on our show, but we had a special group of people that we thought everybody should definitely be hearing from and that is the founders of the Blacklist. So we have Franklin Leonard and Randy Winston here today. So I'm going to turn it over to you guys to introduce yourselves. Franklin and then Randy, go ahead.
- [02:12]
Franklin Leonard
Hi everybody, My name is Franklin Leonard. I'm the founder of the Blacklist and we are a platform for writers and for people in the publishing, film, television and theater businesses to connect. Started in the film business, but we have expanded considerably since then and just launched for fiction writers as of beginning of September and we're really excited to be here.
- [02:32]
Randy Winston
Hi everyone, I'm Randy Winston, creative director of fiction at the Blacklist. Been here for about 10 months. So not a founder but you know, one of the overseers or the overseer of fiction. So that includes everything from readers and writers to our programming to our partnerships. I oversee all of that and it's really exciting to be doing this work in support of writers and people in the industry that find good work and do something great with it.
- [02:58]
Carly Waters
Well, thank you guys so much for coming on the show. So CeCe and I are literary agents, so we obviously come with that background. Most of our listeners are mostly writers who are newbies, new ish to the business. We obviously have a lot of seasoned vets that also listen to our show. So a lot of my questions will be kind of geared towards making sure that we answer all the questions that our listeners will be interested in. So I will start with kind of my big question, which is kind of just obviously infused from my background as a literary agent, which is that as agents, we have never found it especially kind of necessary for there to be a blacklist in publishing, because agents, like literary agents, are really much more accessible to aspiring authors in a way that I don't think that they are in the TV film space. You know, as an agent, I've worked with a lot of co agents and sold, you know, TV film rights for numerous clients. And so I've worked with like, the CAA and the UTAs and. And I know how hard it is to get those email addresses and contact those people. So I know how different that world is. And obviously there's similarities in terms of all that pitching. And so as agents, literary agents, I should say we are very vocal about, like, here's our email address, here's where to pitch us, here's what we're looking for. And so we have always felt like, why would we take something that's public information and try to privatize it, right? Because, you know, all of this has been out there, you know, and this has been working as a system. I say working in quotes. Everybody can't see me working for, you know, hundreds of years at this point. So I don't know that that's kind of where we come from as agents. And so on this podcast, we also tried to demystify the book business and obviously let our listeners know that when there is, you know, new platforms coming on that can really help them in their journey. And so I guess my question for you, if I can narrow this down to a question, would be maybe can you speak to some of those criticisms that you've encountered? And you obviously built this as a business model, know to react to that, and how did you know that you wanted to step into the book business knowing that maybe agents like myself felt like that?
- [04:44]
Franklin Leonard
I want to start by saying this is exactly why I was excited to be on this podcast. I think that, you know, one of the values that I think we and y'all share is making sure that everybody has the necessary information so that they can sort of live up to their aspirations, as the merits of their work would dictate. Right. Whether it's you guys sort of breaking down query letters, by the way, so people can sort of know how best to present themselves to y'all in a query letter, or just making sure that you're having conversations about the craft itself. We all, I think, want to make sure that everybody has the information, and that information is in the public square. I think why we did this and why we expanded into publishing, I think, goes to your part about the quote, working, you know, in the film and television business, which I agree is a lot. It's a lot harder to access those agents, probably, than it is to get in your inbox. There is a super abundance of material. There are more screenwriters writing than there are people that can read all of the screenwriting. And I think the same thing is true based on the conversations that we're having in the book space. There are far more writers of novelists than there are people who could reasonably read all of them. And for you as agents, I imagine, especially y'all, because you are so open. Here's our contact information. Here's how to reach us. There is a super abundance of submissions in your inbox than you could possibly read. And I think what we're trying to do for the publishing industry, and then more broadly the storytelling industry, because it includes film and television, is to industrialize the process of sorting through all of that stuff so that people who have something great, no matter where they are, no matter who they know, no matter if they can command your attention immediately in a. In an inbox query, have a way to say, other people have said, this thing that I've written is really exciting, and you should pay attention to it on the writer side. And then on the industry side, you can have a signal that says, oh, a bunch of other people have read this and said it's really good. Maybe I should elevate it to the top of my pile, prioritize it in my reads, et cetera. And I think that's especially true within the publishing industry, but I think it's also true, transversing the publishing industry into the film and television industry. How do you. If you have something that's great, let everybody in film and TV know about it. If you're a novelist or if you are an agent, frankly, and we have a platform that does that. You know, we have thousands of film and television industry professionals on the site looking for initially scripts and television and plays, but now novels. And we have hundreds and an increasing number of publishing folks who are looking for great work that they can do something with on the platform as well.
- [07:19]
Carly Waters
That's great. Thank you.
- [07:21]
Cece Leera
So I have a flip side to.
- [07:22]
Carly Waters
My first question, which is I have often felt as an agent that we treat writing as a hobby for a lot of people, and it's okay for them to be a hobby. Anybody can pick it up, you know, just grab a pen or a computer. And often that negates the seriousness of this actually being a business. Right. It's like, this is my career. I want to work with people who want this to be their career. And so if you want to break into a business, there are startup costs involved, right? Like computer courses, workshops, conferences. Like, there is an expectation that you should invest in your future career. So in order to do that, right, you need to serve an industry and there's a cost involved. So I'm so curious about, like, how you guys landed at your price point. You know, how did you feel like this was what you wanted to deliver to people at this price point?
- [07:58]
Franklin Leonard
Yeah, I think it really began when we launched in the film and television business. I have a large network of good friends who are writers or aspiring professional writers. And so I'm, I think, probably more acquainted than most with the realities of navigating that when you have a day job. But what you're trying to do is write. So you have two jobs, essentially, and then startup costs, like you said, associated with the writing part of it. And so we wanted to set the cost initially when we launched the company as low as possible, frankly. That would allow us to try to build something that would be valuable. And that's sort of how we backed into the. The monthly fee for hosting material and the cost of the evaluations. It was also important that if we were going to have people read writers work and provide feedback on it, that we take that seriously as well, and that our readers are well compensated for their time. So on the feature side, that means that you pay $100 for a screenplay feedback. The reader gets 60 of that, plus bonuses based on the volume and quality of their work on a quarterly basis. And then, and this is a bit of an insight into my data heavy brain. We did a. We did. Randy's laughing because he. Where this is going. We did a study looking at the average word count of screenplays, 23 to 25,000 words. We knew that the excerpts which would be evaluated on our site would be about 30,000 words, 90 to 100 pages. We also just assumed that prose would be a little bit more dense to read than screenplays based on the typical format. And that's how we backed into the $100 per excerpt feedback fee or compensation for the readers. And that meant that $150 were sort of scaled up be the right one. So again, we're trying to balance all of these competing forces. It is imperative that we pay our readers an appropriate fee to provide high quality feedback so that we can hire high quality readers that have experience in the space. I think it's necessary for us to then set our prices so that we can continue to sustain as a business. But we want to make sure fundamentally that if you have great work, in all likelihood you can afford to get feedback and take advantage of our paid services. What I'd also, I'd say two things though. You can also create a profile on the Blacklist website entirely for free, right? Think of it as your IMDb page. As a writer, you can list all of your published, self published unpublished novels. They can be listed for search categorized by genre and tag, so that if anybody in the film and television industry or publishing industry goes looking for something of that sort, they can find you and contact you via the platform. But then also, if you can't afford our fees, we do have a fee waiver program. It is by application. You may have to wait a little bit longer to get that feedback than you would if you just paid. But you know, I live in constant fear that there is a brilliant writer out there who has a brilliant novel that can't, for whatever reason afford $180 to access, you know, the first step in the system. We should figure out a way to make sure that they can't. I'll add one more thing, is that when you get a high score on your feedback, 8 out of 10 or better, we also give you free hosting and more free feedback because the idea is that we want to keep the best stuff on the platform. And if you have something that one of our readers says is really good, you shouldn't have to pay more to make it more visible.
- [11:06]
Carly Waters
Yeah, Cece, I can see your wheels turning. Go ahead.
- [11:09]
Jami Attenberg
How many do you have, like, numbers in terms of like, the percentage of people who use the reader's feedback? Like, how many get that those high scores? Like, is it 5%? Is it 30?
- [11:20]
Franklin Leonard
That's a great question. We're still early on the fiction side, obviously, it's been only about five or six weeks. If you look historically at the screenplay side, which goes back 12 years now, it's about three and a half percent get eight plus scores. And I want to be very clear about this. It is designed to be a high threshold to pass. It is important that if we're recommending material to professionals in these spaces, that when they read the material that we're recommending because our reader said it was very strong or worth their time, it's absolutely critical that when they read it, they may not love it, it might not be for them. Right. But it is imperative that when they read it, they at least say, it's not for me. But I understand why someone recommended this to me so that the next time we recommend something, they will be inclined to read that as well. So we keep a very high threshold. Like I said, eight plus scores has been about three and a half percent historically. And one of the other things that we've seen across film, across television, across theater, that three and a half percent seems to hold even across format. So I imagine it would be very similar in the book space.
- [12:24]
Jami Attenberg
That's very reassuring to hear because I've always, like. I'm a big believer in understanding that the difference between a movie or a TV show and a book is that everything that goes into the movie or TV show is like, there's so much that goes into it. We have lighting, we have actors, we have makeup, we have special effects. Like, if you want to create mood, you put a little, like, ominous soundtrack. And I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying, oh, just throw that in there. I'm saying, like, there's so many tools.
- [12:50]
Franklin Leonard
That go into good.
- [12:52]
Jami Attenberg
Right. And with the book, it's just the writing. And like, as an agent, the number one reason why I pass on queries, it's not because the queries don't fit what I'm looking for in terms of, like, the checkboxes. It's not because the idea isn't good. It's because the writing isn't there yet. And so when someone tells me there's this service, you know, and I'm going to be like, okay, well, I need to know that you're not saying a good percentage is 8.
- [13:16]
Bianca Marais
Right.
- [13:16]
Jami Attenberg
Because that's reassuring to me. Yeah.
- [13:18]
Franklin Leonard
I'll say a little bit about this. I talk about this in the screenplay context a lot, but I think it holds just across art, frankly, good enough is not good enough. The goal here always is to aspire to something that makes someone say after they finish it again. Book, screenplay, movie, television show. What we're testing for is the reaction, oh my God, I have to tell everybody about this. In fact, there's not a checkbox rubrics that our readers are going through when they read a piece of material. What we ask them is, on a scale of 1 to 10, how likely would you be to recommend this to your peer or superior in the industry? We want to capture that. I have to hop into the group chat and tell everybody about this. Or conversely, I wouldn't wish reading this on my worst enemy. But it has to be an incredibly narrow filter to serve actual working professionals in these spaces. And if and writers should go in knowing that when they pay for feedback is that you are held to a standard of. I would tell other professionals working that they should pay attention to this immediately. And that's also why I say exhaust all of your the free resources at your disposal to get feedback on your work and make it as good as possible before you put money behind it, before you invest in it with us or anybody else. Frankly, you know, there's no reason to put good, you know, bad money after good or good money after bad, whatever the expression is. When you could have sought feedback for free, you could have done everything you could to make it as good as possible. Because we are definitely going to evaluate you as though this thing is ready or it's not. It's not binary. It's 1 to 10, but you get the idea.
- [14:52]
Carly Waters
Yeah. I was going to chime in on the 3% because so when I used to track my queries, I don't anymore, I had to give up on that. I don't have a data scientist on my team. But when I used to track what my request rate was, so queries come in. What percentage do I request the full manuscript of? Or the partial 3% was actually the number.
- [15:10]
Randy Winston
Yes. Wow.
- [15:12]
Franklin Leonard
That's actually. Now I want to hire a data scientist to look further into that. That's actually really fascinating.
- [15:18]
Carly Waters
I thought that was fascinating too because I'm like, there's something about the 3%. Like I. I'm totally with you on this. My data, my limited data, when I used to track told me 3%. So there you go.
- [15:29]
Franklin Leonard
I think that people really. Not to harp on this too much, but I think it's a really important thing for every aspiring writer to think about. Seriously, when you say 3%, that's 1 in 33. Right. And so you need to believe that your work is stronger than choose 32 other writers or, you know, doing similar things. That has to be the aspiration. And that's not to say that you should doubt your work. Right. It just means that you should do the work necessary to make it that elite, whatever it is. Right. And that doesn't mean you have to go to the right schools or have read the right books. It just means that you have to aim incredibly high with what it is that you're putting on the page.
- [16:10]
Carly Waters
Absolutely. Okay, my next question. Can you speak to the qualifications and credentials of the readers who perform the reading services on your platform? Just kind of curious. If, you know, our listeners were to kind of go in there, what is the type of person? What kind of credentials would they have and how would that work for them?
- [16:25]
Franklin Leonard
Randy, do you want to speak to the qualifications? And I can do the. How they're assigned or.
- [16:29]
Randy Winston
Yeah, yeah. So when the blacklist is looking for readers for fiction, we are looking for people who have at least a year of experience evaluating fiction in the industry. So that's. You know, I used to work at nonprofits, literary nonprofits, and, you know, from time to time, there will be volunteer readers for volunteer things. That's not what this is. This is. I have worked at a house for at least a year. I used to be an assistant editor or I used to be an editor, or I was a senior editor, or I worked at an agency and I was a senior literary agent, and now I'm freelance. Or I used to do assistant or junior work for, you know, boutique agency here or caa. Those are the people that we're hiring. Outside of that, it is, you know, unfortunately, that's not who we're looking for, mainly because our promise to our writers is the quality of feedback that they are going to receive. And, you know, I love this question because when we did beta testing, at certain points, I have direct contact with writers, and so the writers are reaching out and asking every question under the sun. They're giving us all the feedback about the site, what's working, what's not working. And across the board, every writer that would ask a question would always say, can you promise me that the people who are reading my stuff are coming from publishing and not TV writing? And so that's the guarantee that we're giving them, and that's how we're looking at our reader pool. And it speaks to the quality of the feedback that people are getting. Franklin, I'll let you take it from there.
- [18:01]
Franklin Leonard
Yeah. I'll just add two things. The first is that I think one of the things that distinguishes us from other places where you might submit your work is that a. You get your feedback right. So the reader does their work. They write the feedback, you as the writer receive it. And when you do, if, God forbid, our reader fails to do their job, it happens from time to time. Rarely, but it does happen. Or if there was a copy and paste mistake, you know, they're writing the qualitative stuff in another window they copy the wrong thing over. We want you to email us. We have a customer support mechanism that. That is why it exists. Not only can you email us, I'm personally asking you to, so that we can make that right and remove that feedback and replace it with feedback that has been done at the standard that we expect. Second thing is, and I'm really just excited about this, so allow me to brag for a moment, which is how we assign the feedback. Like Randy mentioned, you're not going to have a film TV person reading your novel. Just like if you're a screenplay person, you're not going to have a publishing person reading your screenplay. So first we assign work based on the format that people have expertise in. The second is genre. So if you are a horror reader, you're not, unless you're interested specifically also in romantasy, you're not going to be reading Romantasy. So you're only reading in the genres in which you have interest. And the last piece is, I want to give credit to Kate Hagan and Shelby Kovant on the Blacklist team who came up with this is a content consideration. So when readers come onto the Blacklist, they can check off things that they're not interested in reading about gunplay, violence of any sort, et cetera. And when you upload your work, you indicate which of those things your work has, and then we negatively assign based on that. Because I don't want any reader reading content that they're not comfortable with. But I also don't want any writer getting feedback or an evaluation from a reader who may have whatever bias for whatever reason that may make it impossible for them to give the best possible feedback.
- [19:55]
Carly Waters
Thank you. Okay, so next question I had written down was the New York Times profile. You guys had a glowing New York Times profile written about you guys, which you must have been like, yes, and I'm sure it's not your first time being in the Times, but everybody publishing was like sharing that around, which, you know, the New York Times isn't always going to say good things about everybody, especially authors who get published they know the New York Times doesn't always favorably review their books. So I've seen, like, obviously the glowing review. You've had incredible endorsements from professionals within the industry. And then I was on Reddit because I'm obviously doing my research for our interview. And so I guess I'm curious about, has the launch gone the way you wanted, and are there any criticisms that have kind of come up where you've been like, oh, that surprised us, or we're making pivots based on that?
- [20:34]
Franklin Leonard
We did a lot of work before launch talking to stakeholders just to make sure we were doing things right. And I'll be honest, I have been resistant to move into publishing for quite a long time. And the reason it eventually happened is because enough people. People that were in publishing were like, no, you. You need to seriously consider this. And then they set me up on meetings to basically say what we were doing and take feedback. And it was, you know, surprisingly positive. There were some things like, okay, well, what is your pricing structure? And why did you land on this number? A lot of the questions that you've already asked. The New York Times story was amazing, obviously, and there was no small amount of anxiety, because, like you said, it's the New York Times. But I think that what's been really exciting is how excited the publishing space has been about this as a resource to find great material. And I think that we have to be cautious and respectful about how much we brag about that, because we don't want to make false promises to the writers who might submit. I wish I could tell every writer on Earth who was signed up for the site to find material, but I can't do that. But I'd say if there's one thing that has surprised me, I think that there will be. I think we have to earn the trust of writers so that they understand how we can be valuable. But I will say we've been overwhelmed by the interest from the publishing space in the platform as a way to find new, great novels, and I have no doubt that we will, which is the exciting part. It's just a matter of time.
- [21:59]
Carly Waters
Absolutely. I think one of the things I had on my list to talk to you about was kind of like the why now? Piece of it, and you kind of talked about a little bit, because I do feel like the industry is so much different than, you know, it's changed so much. I guess I should say, like, I started publishing in 2009. It's very different place.
- [22:14]
Franklin Leonard
Yeah. I think part of it was the ongoing Drumbeat of hearing from people saying, no, really, you should consider this. You built something that, with some minor modifications, could solve a macro problem that we see happening in publishing, which, again, I think when I talk about it as a problem, I think what I have to say also is, is that there were good reasons why the material identification process, the material discovery process existed as it has for long. There is a super abundance of material. There's no way to read it all. You end up reading the things that people who you trust, who have recommended good things to you before recommend. Right. But that does create some constraints. You know, if you don't know the right people, if you can't arrest their attention, if you. If you, you know, if you don't live in the right cities, in the case of Hollywood, it makes it hard, even if you have something great, to, like, have a professional career as a writer. And I think as the Internet and sort of the social Internet began to congeal, the technology allows for us to gather all of this information in one place and share it efficiently and effectively. And I also just think that the relationship between the film and television industry and the, you know, novels writing writ large has changed dramatically, and they're just a lot closer. You know, if you have a movie based on a book with a large audience, that's a very good thing right now in film and television. And I think, you know, film and television adaptations can definitely drive book sales. And so it does. It never really made sense to me that there wasn't a closer nexus between those two spaces so that people could find great stuff on some level. This is just a really selfish plan so I can watch more good movies and television shows and read more good books. If I'm being totally honest, I'm sure.
- [23:53]
Carly Waters
You'Re on a lot of lists to get the best. The latest arcs and galleys and all of that great stuff.
- [23:59]
Franklin Leonard
So not. Not as many as maybe I'd like to be. So if anybody's listening, call out, send.
- [24:05]
Carly Waters
Franklin and Randy More arts.
- [24:07]
Randy Winston
Oh, please, not me, Franklin. I get all that.
- [24:12]
Franklin Leonard
Randy's already on the list. He's been in publishing a lot longer than I have.
- [24:16]
Carly Waters
Okay. Okay.
- [24:17]
Franklin Leonard
Actually, I probably. Now I think about the piles of books in my living room and in my office. Maybe I should not ask for. Let's maybe make sure it's electronic.
- [24:26]
Carly Waters
Yeah. What you need to invent now is a cloning system so that we can read more books in our lifetime and extend our lifespan.
- [24:33]
Franklin Leonard
If I. If anybody figures out that technology, it does not have to be Me. Let me know.
- [24:37]
Carly Waters
Oh, that's great. Okay, so question for Randy. So I read this quote in the Publisher's weekly article and you said there is enough out there on craft books, podcasts, YouTube that you can read, watch and listen until the cows come home. We want to make sure that we're making accessible information on the business side so people can make reasonable decisions that they start operating in this space. It's important that folks know that it's not just me writing a book and then everyone doing Lord knows what for me in this romantic world of books, no, it's a business and it's collaborative. So one of the things that always surprises me in the book business still to this day is there's always newbies coming into this world and, like, there's no way for us to kind of infuse all this information in terms of the business side the way that we want to. So I'm just kind of curious about what your goal is and how you kind of hope to educate writers on the business side of things. I think that's one of the initiatives that you guys have set out to do as well.
- [25:25]
Cece Leera
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- [26:05]
Carly Waters
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- [26:06]
Cece Leera
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Carly Waters
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- [27:09]
Carly Waters
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- [27:23]
Randy Winston
Yeah, I don't want another Randy Winston. Like, if I'm being honest, I started writing my first book in 2009, 2010. I did a full undergraduate degree and then paid stud. If we're being, you know, we have emerging writers listening. So I just want to be transparent. Student loans that I'm still paying back for MFA degree that all just to get network and information that I now have 10 years later. I don't want to see other writers struggle to get that. You know, I feel like a lot of this stuff should be centralized and shouldn't always live behind paywalls and, you know, we should be finding ways to make information accessible to students. I had no idea that an MFA existed. I had no idea. I'm from Atlanta, Southwest Atlanta. I had no idea that there was a such thing as poets and writers and Publishers Week. Like, none. Nothing about nothing. I just wrote a book because I enjoyed reading books and I wanted to write a book that I wanted to read. And so when you think about agents, I didn't know the business side of the industry. And if I'm being fair, I didn't know about the business side of the industry as a result of an MFA degree. But I was very lucky to be around people and I was very proactive that as a sponge, the longer I hung around authors at events and agents and editors, they trust me and they start sharing information. And that's why I am where I am now. But that shouldn't be the case. You shouldn't have to move to New York to learn this stuff. And so, you know, one of the things that we're doing is read the acknowledgments, which is a visual podcast, so live on Zoom. And then we recorded an archive it for folks to have access to where I sit down with two industry members, whether it be an author or an agent or an Editor or people that work in book production, or librarians or booksellers, pretty much anyone that's involved in the production or the ecosystem or the life of a book to talk about the business. I think that's important. And everyone's experience is different. So, Carly, cc, your experience is going to be completely different from an agent that's at CAA or an agent at UTA or an agent that used to be at those and are now starting their own agency. And I think that's important for writers to understand that everyone's experience is going to be different. And so it gives you a different layer of the business side of books, if I'm being honest. It's going to make you a better career professional in that regard. And that's separate from the artistry of it all. Right. I'm a fiction writer myself, so yes, the artistry matters. I spend Saturday and Sundays in the mornings writing. But I also need to know the business so that when it's my turn to sit in the chair and I'm being grilled and there's paperwork in front of me and I. Or there's an auction on the table, I know how to make the right choices, and I know the right questions that I should be asking. Or even if I'm looking for an agent, I know the right questions that I should be asking agents so that I can make the right choice there. All of those relationships are very important, and time is important, and I just want to make sure that writers don't have to go through all the loops that I.
- [30:27]
Carly Waters
Well, that is a public service because we also do the same thing and we work very hard to educate everybody. So thank you, Randy Franklin, were you going to say something?
- [30:35]
Franklin Leonard
Just that that's why I hired him. I say that partially in jest, but, you know, as Randy and I started talking towards the end of last year, beginning of this year, one of the ways in which I knew that he was the right person was that all of the questions that he was asking me about how we did what we did came from the perspective, first and foremost, of a writer who would be using the site. Right. Like he was like, I'm a fiction writer. These are the questions that I would be asking, can we provide this education? Why is this behind a paywall? And I think that that is. That has to be our orientation. And the beauty of it is that if we solve this problem for writers and for the industry, everybody wins because we're finding good stuff and there's a con, there's a way for that stuff to get found. But I think, first and foremost, how can we make sure that everybody has the information that they need to be as successful as they can?
- [31:20]
Randy Winston
It's possible that there's going to be a writer that is extremely talented that decides, I don't want to use the blacklist. I'm going to sign up for a profile, but I'm not going to use the blacklist. That's their business. Right. I think if for nothing else, you check out our resources. We have a resources page with a variety of books and links and helpful tips about the writer agent relationship or the editor agent relationship. The goal is for you to make an educated decision on how best to serve your career. And if using the site and no paywall, just straight to the information helps you get there, great. I'm happy.
- [31:57]
Carly Waters
Well, we better be one of the resources on your resource list.
- [32:01]
Franklin Leonard
I mean, yeah, if you're not already, we definitely should add you. I mean, it's funny, as I was. As I began to sort of, like, better understand the ecosystem, you know, part of doing that in this day and age is listening to podcasts. You know, you go looking, and of course I found Jaws. And the title alone just sort of, again, it's just like, this is the stuff you got need to know. Here it is. And. And then as I listened to it, like I said, y'all break down a query letter. This is the information that we want people to have, both in sort of like, practical, simple terms, but also, like, in practice, you know, listening to, like, I've learned things about listening to y'all breakdown query letters, because I'm like, oh, yeah, that I'll be looking for that going forward.
- [32:40]
Carly Waters
Well, thank you guys so, so much. My last question that I had was just who is the ideal customer for your literary blacklist when you designed it? Like, we talked a little bit kind of obviously about who might be potential customers, but like, yeah, who did you design this for?
- [32:54]
Franklin Leonard
There's actually a few answers to this question. The shortest answer on the writer side is anyone with a great piece of work. If you have. Whether it's published, self published, unpublished, if you have great writing that people need to know about, you should be creating a profile. Consider hosting and feedback, but at least create a profile. But again, even if you don't, you're an ideal customer for the information that's available for free, and you should listen to, read the acknowledgments and do all of that stuff. On the publishing, film, television side, our ideal customer is anyone who is Looking for a great piece of writing and storytelling who has the ability to make it real in book form or in film and television form. So on the industry side, you know, you have to be somebody who, in the normal course of business can advance the material, you know, so that includes assistance, by the way, because an assistant can walk into their boss's office and say, you need to read this immediately. But that is a, it's a lower threshold for even having access to information. And all of our members, you have to apply, you have to be approved by the team, and that is the threshold that you have to cross. So when your work is on the blacklist, that is who is on the other side of it?
- [34:15]
Randy Winston
Franklin, I'll add to. I was at an event last week, the Kirkus Book Awards last week, and a published author who has two books came up to me and said, hey, me and my agent are having a problem getting the third one to bite. Can I use the blacklist? Absolutely. Oh, I didn't know I could.
- [34:34]
Franklin Leonard
Yeah.
- [34:34]
Randy Winston
It's not just for people who don't have agents. It's also for people who have agents and are having, you know, try everything at your disposal, even if it's just listing it for free on your profile. And so you know those people. And then lastly, I would add, on the industry side, I was, I won't say who, but I have a very good relationship with a very high up editor who represent, who edits some, some of the best novels, probably on everyone here's bookshelf. And she told me, she said, listen, even with, with the books that I edit and even with my small view on what I want, I would still use the site because I love opportunity and I'll leave that there.
- [35:14]
Carly Waters
It makes perfect sense. Part of our job is always finding something new, you know, and that's what we get excited by. And speaking of assistants coming to my office, I love when my assistant's like, you have to read this. I'm like, I will drop everything. That's an endorsement. I trust you so totally.
- [35:27]
Jami Attenberg
It's the best feeling in the world, right? When you want to shake someone and be like, you have to read this.
- [35:31]
Carly Waters
Now.
- [35:31]
Jami Attenberg
I was gonna ask because I know I have this like special power where I can hear what our listeners are asking as they listen to this. Even though this isn't even technically out yet, it's still being recorded. But I have that magical power. And I know for a fact that some of them are going, what about us memoirists? You know, like, what's up with this whole, like, fiction thing. And I'm saying this because I am a big believer that a good memoir reads like a novel. In fact, if you go to, like, I don't know, Goodreads or whatever and look up a super popular memoir, a lot of reviews will say, oh, my God, when I read this, I didn't realize it was a true story. I thought I was reading a novel. And so have you ever considered. Would you ever consider expanding into memoirs as well?
- [36:13]
Franklin Leonard
It's a great question, and this question has come up regard to nonfiction as well. And what I'd say is that evaluating memoir and nonfiction because of the sort of journalistic fact based of it requires additional resources that I don't know that we're equipped to provide at the moment. And we don't want to offer a service that is incomplete. What I can say, and I think people will have to make their own judgments based on how they want to handle it, is that you absolutely can submit your memoir, but it will be read as fiction. And I think it's critically important that people understand that. I think the definitions around these terms have always been a bit hazy, possibly no more so than they are right now. But you could theoretically take advantage of the blacklist as a memoirist, but know that it will be read as fiction. And, you know, don't email customer support and say, but it's a memoir, because we won't be able to evaluate it as such. Randy, is there anything you would add to that? I think you're more. I have more facility with this stuff than I do.
- [37:11]
Randy Winston
Yeah. I mean, people write autofiction, but that's obviously. Cece, that doesn't answer your question because you're talking strictly nonfiction memoir. But, you know, for writers out there who are on the fence about, you know, if. If they even want to submit or query a memoir, you know, there's also autofiction as an alternative. Obviously, the craft of it all changes and the structure changes as well, but that option is also out there. That's something also I didn't know about until I started. So I moved to New York and started talking to agents and authors. So just another option for people listening.
- [37:48]
Carly Waters
Thank you guys so much for offering your time and your expertise.
- [37:52]
Franklin Leonard
Can I add one more thing before I forget? Because this is actually an opportunity that if you're already. If you have your material hosted on the site, there is no additional cost associated with it. There are two opportunities that are currently on the site and there will be more forthcoming. One, we've named the Unpublished Novel award, which is that next year we will sort of do a short list of the best things that we've seen on the site over the course of the first year. Those manuscripts will then be read by a judging core that is frankly ridiculous. The Child in Me is particularly excited about LeVar Burton reading sci fi and fantasy. But we've got Roxane Gay, Mike Flanagan, Kathy Belden. Kathy Belden. If you go to the blackwist website, you'll see all the judges. It's a little absurd, but each of the winners in each of those genres, each of the selected novels in each one of those genres will receive $10,000. And that's money in pocket. They're not exchanging those rights for anything. That's just $10,000 check. We also have a partnership with Simon Kinberg. He's probably best known for being the producer of the Martian, which obviously was a self published novel when he first found it. And so when we told him what we were doing, he was like, I know you're going to find stuff that I want to turn into a film and television show from a television show. And so he. We're helping him find a novel to be optioned for 18 months for $25,000 film or television show that he'll be involved in producing. And there'll be more similar partnerships on the way imminently. So, you know, check Blacklist Social media. If you join the site, you'll get emails about this stuff and to submit to each of those, any and all of them, no additional fee. Again, because when you have something great, you shouldn't have to pay for more opportunities associated with it. That should be the last time you pay and all those opportunities should should be available to you.
- [39:36]
Carly Waters
Thank you so much, guys. I appreciate how thoughtful you guys are in terms of the creation of this and the way that you speak about it. And we all have such a care for creators and obviously that's the thing that brought us together on this show today. So thank you. Thank you so much. Cece, is there anything else that we didn't get to that you wanted to.
- [39:53]
Jami Attenberg
I would like to just wrap it up by asking you, what are you reading? Can you please recommend a book that you're each reading? Because that is the last question I always ask of every interview. This is your opportunity to pipe up a book.
- [40:04]
Randy Winston
I'm reading this great Hemisphere by Matteo Scarrapour. He's actually gonna be on Read the announcements tonight. Super fan of his. So shout out to Mateo. That's what I'm reading right Now I just read.
- [40:15]
Franklin Leonard
I tend to read nonfiction more than fiction. Embarrassing acknowledgement.
- [40:19]
Jami Attenberg
Ironic.
- [40:20]
Franklin Leonard
It is ironic. It's true. It's true. I just. I just read my friend Sarah Lewis's book the Unseen Truth, which is absolutely brilliant, as all of her work has been. I just read Godwin by Joseph O'Neill. I'm a sort of crazy soccer fan, so that. That was an easy sell to me. I really enjoyed it, and I've been reworking my way through Colson Whitehead's the Intuitionist of late. I saw Nickel Boys at the film festivals this fall, and. And that made me nostalgic for that one. So I'm. I'm. I'm digging back in.
- [40:53]
Jami Attenberg
Thank you. I love speaking to book people because they're always like. I'm always like, say, recommend us a book. And they're like, 1, 2, 3. Like, I love it. It's the best feeling. So thank you.
- [41:03]
Franklin Leonard
I'm always like, halfway through like, three, and just pick them up.
- [41:07]
Jami Attenberg
We're not complaining. Please read more.
- [41:08]
Franklin Leonard
Books on my side table right now. And I'm just, like, looking. I'm like, what is on? What is on that list?
- [41:14]
Carly Waters
Yeah, we need the list of, like, the audiobook you're listening to the print, the hardback, the.
- [41:21]
Jami Attenberg
We'll have another episode just with the reading list. It'll be 40 minutes or the books.
- [41:25]
Franklin Leonard
Yeah, it is Lister, what we do, so.
- [41:29]
Carly Waters
All right, guys. Well, listeners, if you have any questions, let us know. We can obviously pass anything along to these guys. Any feedback, let us know. Thank you guys for tuning in and thank you to our guests, Randy and Franklin.
- [41:41]
Franklin Leonard
Thanks for having us.
- [41:41]
Randy Winston
Thanks for having us.
- [41:43]
Cece Leera
A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the fulsome picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at PS Literate Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency, and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcast. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our substack newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice, and more. You can find it at the shitaboutwriting.substack.com that's theshitaboutwriting.substack.com and that's it for today's episode.
- [42:38]
Bianca Marais
I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes. Omg. Have you seen the Deep Dive Virtual retreat lineup for the 1st and 2nd of February? It's incredible. Gatekeepers galore. As well as the authors who managed to get past them, we've got the editors and agents who worked on phenomenal projects like Station 11, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, Crazy Rich Asians, the Flight Attendant, Mame Wayward, the Wife Upstairs, the Tinder Swindler, Big Little Lies, the Perfect Couple, the Other Black Girl, and so much more. The presentation topics are brilliant, so practical and valuable regardless of where you are in your writing journey. One of our speakers, the brilliant Annabel Monaghan, who wrote the best selling Nora Goes Off Script, was a delegate at the very first Deep Dive Retreat. And now she's kicking butt all over the place coming back to present. That could be you one day. Those of you who take part in the Thousand Words of Summer will also be super excited to see the fabulous Jami Attenberg in the lineup as well. Trust me, you do not want to miss this. Head to our website, theshitaboutwriting.com go to the deep Dive page to see more information and to register. We hope to see you there.