Bianca Marae (3:46)

Hi there and welcome to our show, the Shit no one tells you about Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca and I'm joined by Cece Lera of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary.

Carly Waters (4:01)

Hi, everybody. Welcome to an episode of Books with Hooks. As you guys can see if you're watching us on YouTube, it is only Cece and I here today.

Cece Lira (4:11)

Sad.

Carly Waters (4:12)

Yeah, it is sad. She says she's under the weather. And so those of you who have been around a while know that when it's just cece and I doing books with hooks, you know, we can't really stick to a script. We go too long, we're all over the place, which makes it very fun. And we like being a bit mischievous. Is that the right word, mischievous? Mischievous, yeah, we like being mischievous.

Cece Lira (4:35)

Well, because Bianca is like the parent in this dynamic, right? Like, she keeps us on schedule, she doesn't allow anything to go off the rails. Whereas if you put Carly and I alone in a recording room, who knows what will happen? It's a mystery.

Carly Waters (4:51)

I know. And this is also a bye week for our Monday episode, our Shooting the Shit episode. So we only get to see each other once this week, so this is our time. That's true.

Cece Lira (5:01)

That's true. Okay, do you want to start with your query letter today or mine?

Carly Waters (5:05)

Yeah, you know, we were just chatting really quickly before I hit record, and these are very strong pieces today, so I'm really excited for you guys to hear these. So I will start today. Dear Carly, Cece and Bianca, I would blow my word count if I tried to describe how invaluable the shit about writing has been for me. As I ready my book for submissions, so I will simply say to all of you a very warm and heartfelt thank you. I am seeking representation for my historical YA debut, Milk Carton Girls. Milk Carton Girls, 58,000 words, is a coming of age story that combines the first love and family dysfunction of Eleanor and Park with the atmospheric missing girl story of God of the woods. It's 1985 in Maplewood, Massachusetts, and 14 year old Tasha O' Connor faces another summer alone. As the youngest daughter of an eight in a chaotic household, Tasha feels invisible and longs for the connection she cannot find with her family. She escapes her family's neglect on her bike, riding around town alone, doing her paper route and feeding her obsession with kidnappings by collecting milk carton pictures of missing children. Tasha meets the new kid Jeff on a bike ride and their burgeoning friendship upends her boring summer. They rebuild at dilapidated treehouse in the town forest and explore this place Tasha knows so well. When local girl Bitsy goes missing, the teens embark on a search for answers in her disappearance, unearthing eerie parallels between Tasha and the missing girl. As Tasha and Jeff's investigation and their relationship intensify, Tasha's guarded, solitary world comes under attack. And Tasha must face her own fears before she too is lost forever. I have studied creative writing at the Bennington MFA Program, Tin House Summer Workshop, Grub street and Hugo House Year Long Book Lab Program, and others. My scientific articles have been published in circulation in the Journal of Thoracic and Cardiovascular Surgery. I've written short pieces for the Atlantic Online. Milk Carton Girls is my first novel. I've attached the first five pages below. May I send you the manuscript? Thank you for your consideration. Warm regards. Redacted.

Cece Lira (7:08)

See, I forgot Bianca was in here, so it's already started. The Shenanigans thank you, Carly, for reading that query letter. What was the word count and what did you think of the query letter?

Carly Waters (7:18)

All right, this one clocked in at 331 words. Very tight and concise. I think everybody who's listening can hear how strong this is. It's really, really well done. So I think the title is great. I didn't do a sweep of the Internet to kind of make sure there's not something else named like that, but I can really see the package. I could really see the opportunity for what the design would look like here. So I think this is a super strong title. Word count 58,000. That's a tight novel, which is great. You know, this is for a YA audience. This is a coming of age story, so I definitely think we're kind of in a really great word count here. So I think that's super strong. Eleanor park, though, it's a bit of an older novel, I want to say. Is this novel 15 years old? Potentially 10 to 15 years old. There has to be that old.

Cece Lira (8:07)

Oh, wow.

Carly Waters (8:08)

Sure. I'm sure we could do a fact check. I'm going do a fact check right now.

Cece Lira (8:12)

No, I'm not. I'm not even doubting you. I'm just like surprised that time went by that.

Carly Waters (8:16)

Yeah, yeah. It was published in 2012.

Cece Lira (8:20)

Oh, yeah. Oh, wow.

Carly Waters (8:21)

So, yeah, so 2012. So it's a bit older, which, you know, it's a very iconic novel. Definitely. I mean, some would argue really popularized the YA category, especially YA crossover. So I can see why it's relevant here. But there has to be a more modern YA comp that we could use, especially because your other comp is adult. Right. God of the Woods. So I would love to see like a slightly more up to date comp for the YA comp because it really has to ground it in the category. You know, I think it probably has some crossover potential. You're not saying the word crossover. I'm saying the word crossover. But you definitely have to have a YA comp here because it is ya. So overall, as I said, it is very strong. I think one of the things I struggle with slightly is the familiarity. You know, unfortunately, as much as it sucks to hear these words coming out of my mouth, a missing girl story, unfortunately, is a story that, that we have read before, you know, and we know we see it in the news. And I think that's part of this. What this book is trying to do is kind of talk about that and confront that. But what about this story is unlike any other missing child stories? What is so special about Tasha for telling the story? The structure, the twists? Like, I just. I don't know. It seems like this author is very capable. They wrote a very good pitch, and we'll obviously get to the pages. I'm just wondering where the. The why of this all is to make it really stand out here. I'm also a bit confused on how much of a thriller this is. I will be honest. I have started God of the Woods. I have not finished it yet, and I know it's a great novel and I can't wait to finish it, but it's a classic case of Carly picking up a book and having to put it down because I have other things to do. So I don't know how much of a thriller God of the woods is. My understanding is that it is a bit of a thriller. Cece, have you finished God of the woods?

Cece Lira (10:05)

Oh, my God, 100%.

Carly Waters (10:06)

I love it.

Cece Lira (10:07)

I would say it's more mystery, suspense than. It's not. Like, it's amazing, though. You must finish it. Like, it's one of my favorite novels.

Carly Waters (10:16)

Not only do I have to finish that, I literally, before jumping on recording this, started putting together my order for my local independent bookstore, Mill Street Books. I just put, like, six books in my cart. Yay. Hooray. Excellent habits. So, listen, I have a lot to read. Okay. Coming back to God of the woods, though. So this is not being pitched to us here as thriller, mystery, or suspense. And yet you're ending with Tasha must face her own fears before she, too, is lost forever. Which makes me wonder, is she being kind of hunted down? What is happening with the missing girls? Because it is a mystery in the sense that they are trying to figure out what happens to this girl. So they are trying to solve a mystery in this kind of, like, teenage way, which I love, which is very strong. I guess I'm just little. I'm wondering what is the special sparkly factor in this pitch? And I'm not really seeing the sparkliest. It's very. Well, this is a classic case of this looks great. I would totally request this, but I'm trying to think about what is, quote, unquote, sparkly and special and the most unique. If I was to pitch this book as an agent to an editor and try to explain to them why this is the missing child book that they need to buy amongst all the other missing child books. I have to be able to say why based on this exact pitch. I can't. Doesn't mean I wouldn't request the pages. Doesn't mean I wouldn't try if I really liked it. But that's just what I'm leaning towards.

Cece Lira (11:41)

Yeah, no, I 100% see what you're saying. I think that sometimes when we request a full and read it, especially when the quality of the writing is as strong as it is here, we can often find what's sparkly and special as we're reading the full. And that's amazing. But part of what we do on this podcast is be really honest with writers about how to stand out and how to really up your chances in this competitive industry. And not everyone will have the time to energy, brain power, cognitive ability to read the full and find that sparkly, special. And maybe you already know. Maybe you're listening to us and you're going, oh, I know exactly what it is. I just didn't add it to the query letter because of maybe word count. And so we're encouraging you to add that.

Carly Waters (12:19)

Right?

Cece Lira (12:20)

Because it's. It's so sad that this is the world we live in where there are so many missing girl stories, but it is the world we live in. Okay, so my notes from the top. I want to encourage everyone submitting to our show, everyone submitting anything ever, anyone talking about books, whether it's in a query letter or Instagram post or anything, to mention author names. Let us promote name linkage. So if you say the God of the woods, say Liz Moore, let's all do that because it's important. It's important to always be reminding our brains to. To promote authors. It does not count towards word count. I've said this before. Author names don't count. They're magical and special. This is a super minor, minor note, but it is the God of the woods. Like, there's a. The missing. Again, no one. No one's gonna get mad at you because of that. But I'm letting you know because I'm reading this. I do think that when it comes to the plot paragraph, when I read the line, eerie parallels between Tasha and the missing girl. Like that to me made me think, oh, there's going to be like a story here. Like an investigative story, a story that's very meaty, propulsive, plot forward, a clear mystery, a clear connection to the protagonist. Because of these parallels, however, after that, we don't really get anything other than really internal stakes. You know, her solitary world comes under attack. I have no idea what that means. Like, what shape does that take? Like, what does that mean? Plot wise and must face her own fears before she too is lost forever. I didn't know if Bitsy's kidnapper was onto her investigation and decided to go after her, or if it was more of a situation of she couldn't step into her protagonism and her power if she didn't conclude this mission. Like, I just had no sense, right as I was reading this, and I think I really want to. It's one of the most common mistakes authors make is ending the plot paragraph with a question about the stakes. That is super internal. I feel very strongly that the stakes have to be external in. In a query letter because we are focused on plot for the query letter. And internal stakes have a place in storytelling, and they're very important. But you don't have to worry it for the query letter. Like, focus. Focus on the external. But, yeah, overall, very strong. Like, your author bio is so impressive. I. I know so many agents who mention how the Bennington MFA is something that, you know, if that's in an author bio, they always pay more attention to the Tin House summer workshop as well. Like, this is very impressive. And even if you had not mentioned your writing credentials, we would have figured it out because the writing is so strong in the pages. Um, so, yeah, great job. I really enjoy this.

Carly Waters (15:00)

Absolutely. Okay, we're gonna flip over to the sample pages now. I'm gonna give a quick summary for us. So we start in the summertime, as you guys know from the query letter. We start with the kind of acknowledging it was halfway through the summer when Bitsy disappeared. And we are in Tasha's point of view. Tasha's kind of talking about, you know, summer in general. Chapter one is kind of a sneaky prologue, but we can get to that. She talks about July, 4th of July, fireworks, how that felt as kind of a kickoff for the summer. And then we flip back a little bit. Chapter two goes back to the summer started normally enough. And so the summer is kind of the way that she's describing it is Memorial Day weekend, and she is sitting at her table. She has a very chaotic family, as we know from the query letter as well. I believe it's 8 total of siblings and the parents. And they are eating breakfast. There's a reference to the milk cartons because she's pouring cereal for her milk. And it's Memorial Day weekend, and they are headed to the cemetery. It seems like only the girls are going to the cemetery. I could be incorrect there. And the boys were at home unpacking the older brother who was coming home from college. And then the girl, they drive to the cemetery, but then they ride their bikes around the cemetery. And our protagonist bikes herself home because she feels like nobody's paying attention to her. But they stop at a couple of their favorite grave sites along the way to kind of reflect and talk about those. On the way home, she sees some friends, and she sees an unfamiliar face, which she said it's very unlikely because everybody knows each other. And that's kind of where we end.

Cece Lira (16:38)

Yeah. And what did you think about the execution?

Carly Waters (16:41)

I really liked the writing. Like, I thought it was super strong. I made a number of notes of where I liked it. As I said, I think chapter one's a sneaky prologue because it's like, you know, talking about the fourth of July fireworks about kind of the missing, you know, when Bitsy goes missing. And then it's chapter two, where we go back to, quote unquote, beginning of summer, which, you know, kind of kicks off with Memorial Day. So, yeah, I mean, do I have a problem with calling chapter one chapter one when it's a sneaky prologue? Not really. It's kind of a nitpicky thing to do with the agent slash submission stage. Do we all kind of know it's a sneaky prologue? Yes. I don't hate it. Let's just say that. So, you know, and I really thought the last section, so. So the chapter one, the. The prologue is essentially like one word document page. And at the end, she's talk the fireworks. And it says, the sky sprinkled its fairy dust down on us. In the finale of Explosions, a rainbow of shooting stars drifted down and trailed off until eventually it faded away. Vapors of smoke and dust and fog in its wake. With nothing else to prove that it had been there. It had completely disappeared, just like Bitsy. I mean, fantastic work there. Well done. I absolutely love that. You know, just the concept of things fading away. I thought it was really just really well done. It does have a bit of a sophisticated voice. You know, I think the thing with coming of age is there's always that balance of, you know, is it ya? Is it coming of eight? Like, who is it for? What is the audience? And as I said in the pitch, this person's not calling a crossover. I'm calling it crossover because I think this is an example of when something feels very childlike in the way that the child is experiencing the world. And yet the writing itself is very elevated, and I can enjoy it with my adult lens. So I think. I think it's really, really well done. Okay, I have a couple things to start off with. I thought the town was called Maplewood, and then she calls it Braintree. Is the town called Braintree or is the town called Maplewood? A little bit confused about that? Maybe one of them is the county and one of them is the specific town. One is. Maybe it's the neighborhood. Maybe Braintree is the neighborhood in Maplewood. I don't know. I was a little bit confused about that. That kind of tripped me up a little bit. But, yeah, again, could be potentially a smaller note. I'm also a little bit confused about the framing and the structure here and the way that the author is telling the story. It almost seems like there is such an attempt at this first person writing to Break the fourth wall. Like, it really seems like this character is trying to talk to the reader. For example, chapter two starts that summer started normally enough. I mean, as normal as things could be for my family, I almost like, is she breaking the fourth wall? Is she trying to tell the reader a story? My instinct as a reader is to know why she's speaking to me. That's something I'm really interested in kind of figuring out. So I don't know, I'm just really curious about how this author decided to get really close to breaking the fourth wall or talking to the reader, but not really talking to the reader. And maybe this is, you know, a structural thing that kind of comes out throughout the novel. But that was interesting to me about how they were kind of toeing that line, especially at the beginning. And it does feel very kind of teen esque, which is nice, as if, like, potentially they're journaling and we're getting brought in on this story of like, come with me, here we go on this journey. I like it. I was just a little bit curious about how close we got to the fourth wall and why. I thought that was great. I also really, really liked, and I'm sure cece liked this as well, that the family has somewhere to be. But it has nothing to do with the missing girls, right? They're like, they're at the table. The mom's like, hurry up, we gotta go. We have all these things to do. Gotta get, you know, gotta get the car so we can do our Memorial Day tradition, which seems to be, you know, visiting the graves of fallen soldiers. And they kind of talk about that in the car. It says, so I love that. I love that there's a sense of urgency that has nothing to actually to do with the missing girls. But then we're able to kind of weave in these themes as we talk about people that are lost at the cemetery. And, you know, the girls really gravitate towards a certain gravestone which was a 14 year old girl, and we find out that our protagonist is 14. So I really loved that. Super smooth. Really, really well done. I had another question about logistics. So they drive to the cemetery, yet the girls bike around. This is a family of eight. Like, how big of a vehicle do they have? How many people are in the car? Where do they put these bikes? I was very confused about the logistics of that situation and could be an example of, you know, in the editing process, some lines were cut out to explain this. Maybe you never meant to explain this, but I have a lot of questions. About that. And, you know, she never tells the mom, I'm gonna bike home. She just kind of takes off, which is potentially, obviously very classic of that age. So those were just some things that kind of tripped me up little bit. But the writing is really, really good.

Cece Lira (21:14)

I didn't think about the bike logistics, but that. That's so true. Right. Like, if there are three sisters, I think, and they all hop on their bikes after being driven there. And this is like, 1950s. So I don't even think we had vehicles.

Carly Waters (21:30)

85. 85.

Cece Lira (21:31)

Why did I think it was 1950s? Anyway, so, yes. So this is the 1980s. So I don't know how big vehicles were, but I don't remember. I should remember. Okay. These opening pages, I felt were really strong. The first line is excellent. Like, absolutely excellent. It was halfway through the summer when Bitsy disappeared. Like, it's short. It's simple. There's an inherent mystery. There's specificity. It's not over explaining. I really, really liked it. That being said, and I fully agree, it's a sneaky prologue, which is fine, but. But I'm not entirely clear on what the author's trying to accomplish with the use of we. So the third paragraph has a very clear I. In the beginning, I leaned back on the cushion. And then every other sentence is, we sat and marveled. We were completely absorbed. We lost ourselves in the spectacle. None of that even entered our minds. Who is this collective we and collective hour? Is she trying to do a Greek chorus situation where you know, she's talking about the community? If so, then lean into that. Start with an I and all of a sudden switch to we, because it's very jarring. I actually think it would be stronger if you leaned into the I. Though to me, the collective we does not make sense. You're not here to explain it to me. But I kept thinking it should be more focused on the protagonist. I would recommend reading the prologue of all the Other Mothers Hate Me for inspiration. It is also about a missing child. Obviously very different. It's an adult novel, but the prologue is very centered on the protagonist, even though it is introducing the mystery of a boy who went missing. Okay, so chapter one. Chapter one. I. I really, really liked the family dynamics, and I like that she's observing a lot. One of the things I'm always looking for in novels is when the protagonist is observing things, because I really want to see how they observe the world, their insights. That being said, her place in the world. We get so many references to the fact that she is lost, forgotten, invisible, unimportant. And I highlighted a few of them and I. This is being repeated a lot, right? Like, over the course of these four pages. And I. I feel like I'm a big proponent of you have to show and tell. Like, I don't believe in show, don't tell. I think that storytelling requires showing and telling, and there's a reason it's called storytelling. But this is a situation where this specific detail, like her place in the world, being invisible, I need to see it as well as hear about it. Her telling me that, you know, she feels completely on her own, doesn't really have a place anywhere in the family. I kind of want to see what that looks like. So here's an example. Imagine if they were all, you know, going to the cemetery and they forgot about her, and this was like, story of her life. You know, they left her behind. You know, her mom has eight kids. She. She forgets about the one that she does that she forgets about. Like, that would show me how common this is for her and how alone she feels. And she could also tell me in the way. In the beautiful way that she is telling me now. But I kind of wanted to see it as well, because I don't know what shape that takes, especially because she is comparing herself to girls who have gone objectively missing. Right. And that's a big comparison. And teens absolutely do that. Like, that is very realistic. A teen will say, oh, my God, these girls just like me. Like, super realistic. That part's fine. But I, as a reader, need to experience what this neglect looks like. And I'm using neglect intentionally because that's the word that's being used in the query letter. So, yeah, I. I wanted more on that. But it's very well written. Like, very, very, very well written. I want to commend the author on that.

Carly Waters (25:13)

Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much for sending this in. We loved it. All right, we're going to switch over to cc, but before we do, a word from our sponsors. Between school drop offs, hitting the gym, and diving into client calls, I don't have the mental bandwidth for a wardrobe crisis. I need pieces that feel effortless and comfortable, but still look sharp. Work Quince has been my go to for that, especially now as I'm counting the down the days until the summer finally hits. Their elevated fabrics make me feel put together without any overthinking. It's that rare combo when I know I look good, whether I'm chasing around my kids or sitting down for a meeting. Right now I'm in the thick of balancing client work and triathlon training sessions, so my spring wardrobe has to do double duty. Quince makes that transition really easy with pieces that feel as good as they look. They're using high end quality 100% European linen, organic cotton and ultra soft denim, which is exactly what I need when I want to look sharp without feeling restricted. I'm a huge fan of wear on repeat items and Quince's linen collection is the gold standard for that. Their lightweight pants, dresses and tops just started $30. They're breathable and effortless, which is a lifesaver whether I'm recording an episode, headed to the gym or just keeping up with my kids. It's an instant outfit that makes it getting out the door so much easier. If you're like me and appreciate a smart financial move, you're going to love their model because everything at Quinn's is priced 50 to 80% less than similar luxury brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen so you're actually paying for the quality and craftsmanship rather than a brand markup. It's a high end style that actually makes sense for a busy budget. I am so eager for the weather to warm up so I can get my linen shorts on machine washable linen I can wear every day. Sign me up. I bought them in black so they'll look classy with a black slide sandal. Or I can pop on some running shoes and chase after the kids to the park. And the price I had to double check because I was shocked at how affordable they are. I can't wait to wear my black linen shorts. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com tisnotya for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q I N C E.com tisnatya for free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com tsnatya all right, let's do this.

Cece Lira (27:17)

Dear Ms. Lira, I'm submitting to you given your interest in morally ambiguous characters, grifters and LGBT Q stories currently in the drafting process. Perishable Flesh is an 80,000 word work of literary fiction that will appeal to fans of the suspenseful plotline of Emma Cline's the Guest and those with an interest in obsessive gay friendship as seen in August Thompson's Anyone's Ghost. British born Clay is an expat and a drifter in his 20s, surviving by navigating the desires of wealthy older Men in Madrid. On arriving in the city, Clay has little vision of a future for himself. But when he meets Johnny, a seductive American sex worker, a new world of possibility opens up. Johnny has everything Clay wants. He's cocksure desirable and has a knack for knowing what people want. Thankfully, he's only too keen to show Clay the ropes. Through Johnny, Clay is schooled in the art of sex work and finds himself growing into a new person, someone eerily indistinguishable from his new friend. But then, after a catastrophic accident, their roles are upended and Johnny is forced into Clay's care. When the boundaries between the two men begin to blur irrevocably, Johnny vanishes without a trace. Six months later, Clay's current lover, the professor, confronts him with an commit to a conventional relationship or pack his bags and leave. He must decide. By the time the professor returns from a conference, just seven days, the proposition is a far cry from the fantasy life Johnny has sold him on. But he has no safety net, no fixed income, and potentially nowhere to live. The only person he can think to turn to is his former friend. After all, it's Johnny's fault he's in this mess. Now he has just a week to find him. But does he want to be found? Over a dual timeline, we track Clay's hunt for Johnny through the seedy, queer underbelly of Madrid, as all the while, he picks through the shards of their shattered relationship. Now Clay must use all the skills his mentor passed on to him. Charm, guile, and aptitude for lying as he unveils his way into increasingly precarious situations with one question on his tongue. Where is Johnny? I'm an English teacher living in Madrid and spent some years as a bookseller in my native uk. Perishable Flesh will be my first novel. May I send you the full manuscript once completed?

Carly Waters (29:49)

Thank you so much. Cece, how many words was this? And what did you think of the query letter?

Cece Lira (29:54)

This clocked in at 407 words. Perishable flesh is a great title for literary fiction. I loved this title. Like, good job, I can see the COVID again. Both queries today. Both queries so strong. I love Emma Cline's the Guest. Whenever someone comps something to Emma Cline's the Guest, I am like, ooh, I'm interested. But also, you've set the bar very high. Just saying. Okay, so plot paragraphs. We learn pretty early on. First sentence, that he is surviving by navigating the desires of wealthy older men, right? But then we also learn that he Meets Johnny, which I assume is like the disruption, right? Like new person entering the equation. One of the most popular disruptions in storytelling. And then Clay is schooled in the art of sex work. But I'm like, wasn't he already schooled in the art? Like, I'm just confused as to what's what, what that means. I want Johnny to have disrupted his life and added real change because storytelling is about change. And I'm unclear on what exactly he's doing. Like, is he just upgrading his seduction game? Is he, I don't know, showing him how to build a roster of clients? Like, I just don't know. And I kind of wanted to know if he hadn't been in sex work before then I of course would understand. But my understanding is that he was. So I don't quite see how the disruption lands. I think a little bit more clarity on that. And then the other thing I want to talk about, and this is really important for query letters, for everyone listening. Your query letter is not just telling a story, it's setting a tone. And particularly with literary fiction, the tone can vary so widely. The line Clay finds himself growing into a new person, someone eerily indistinguishable from his new form friend, that line tells me promises a tone. That line promises me some thriller esque tone. Like why are you highlighting the fact that all of a sudden the protagonist is eerily. Eerily. That word's doing a lot indistinguishable from his friend. I read that and I thought, oh, this is going to be like a swapped identity story. But no, after that we get a different plot line that's totally different in tone, which is there's an accident and now Johnny is forced to into Clay's care. So basically the power dynamics shift completely and all of a sudden Clay is taking care of Johnny as opposed to the other way around. And that is an entirely different novel tonally speaking. Right. That's a novel about caretaking, about what happens when, you know, the fragility of life is highlighted by an accident. So now I'm confused. Now I'm going, okay, I don't know if this is an eerily indistinguishable situation plot or if it's a roles upended caretaking plot. And then we have a third line which is the boundaries between the two men begin to blur. I don't know what that means. Johnny vanishes without a trace. So it becomes a missing person story. And as you guys can see, missing people story, very common, just very common, which is Fine. Like, they're common because they're popular. That's fine. But I am unclear on what kind of story this is being promised. And I think there are clues in this query letter that explain the reason. The author is very clear that they are still working on this story. Right. So I think that this might just be a case of you are figuring out your storyline, and so the tone is a little all over the place because you're figuring out what your story's about. That's normal. There is a mention of a dual timeline. I love me a good dual timeline, but I'm not clear on how this is dual timeline at all. Like, is one timeline him meeting Johnny and then the other timeline him searching for Johnny? Because if so, I'm not clear on. I'm not clear on the mystery, the plot link that will create enough mystery for both of these timelines. I mean, I guess it could be his disappearance. It is literary fiction, but I just don't see dual timeline here. I don't see clarity on it anyway. So that's another question I had. I want to be clear. Like, this is very strong. The fact that I'm, like, kind of ripping it apart a little bit and have so many questions is actually a testament to the strength of the query letter. Because I. When we have specific questions, we, as agents, that usually means that we can start to see a story in our minds, but then the story isn't fully formed, isn't fully packaged. And that's the point of this podcast, right, for us to discuss that and to give you guys hopefully, helpful notes. What did you think, Carly?

Carly Waters (34:11)

All right. I had a lot of the same notes. It really did feel like there was one story happening. And then I was like, okay, then this is a different story. And then every paragraph, I was like, this is a slightly different story, which is potentially fine. But I think the biggest question for me was, where is the inciting incident? Because in my head, like, paragraph one could essentially be a book in itself. So then by the time I got to the end of paragraph one, I was like, oh, oh, there's a whole. There's more book. Like, I was so confused about where the inciting incident is. And obviously, when we get to the pages, we can talk a bit more about, like, where the book begins and all of that sort of stuff, because it's a little bit at odds with the way that it was pitched. So, yeah, I was just very confused about the pace of it all, how long we're spending in each of these sections, because the Query letter seems to tell a different story, I think, than the pages do. So I think I just had a bit of a question mark about that. I definitely want to know what the accident is. I had a big question about what the accident actually is. It's catastrophic. Is it? I think. And I don't know if it matters potentially, but maybe I'm just nosy. I wonder if it was something to do with the job. Like, did Johnny get him into the situation in which he got hurt and therefore felt morally responsible for taking care of him, or was it a health issue and unrelated. I don't know. I was just very confused about why Johnny was forced into the care, whether it was from guilt or whether there was another reason. That was a question for me. There's a number of questions that need to be cut. You know, does he want to be found? Cut that. You know, question on his tongue. Where is Johnny? Cut that. I also don't know. How do we know? How does Clay know that he is still in Madrid, that Johnny's still in Madrid? It's just assumed that he still in Madrid. I have a question about that, you know, and ultimately, like, what is he seeking? What is he trying to find other than Johnny? And how does it all go off track? Because, again, when we get to the pages, I think we have a lot of questions about is our protagonist happy with the situation that he's in and why? And why not? I have a bunch of notes about that. So, yeah, I don't know. I really like it, and I really wanted to, like this. This is an example of something where I would definitely scroll down to read the pages that were pasted down below, because I think the query letter is super interesting, but not fully doing the job it needs to do to kind of, like, pitch me for the sake of the query letter. But it's very interesting. There's a lot going on here, from the kind of, like, blending of the two friends to, you know, the situation he gets in with the professor. There's a lot going on here. That's really interesting.

Cece Lira (36:33)

Yeah, I thought so too. Okay, pages. So we have the protagonist pretending that he's never seen a camel before to please the professor. But we know, we, the reader, because of interiority, we know that he has seen a camel before and that he just is in the business of pretending. They arrive at a resort, and they're sunbathing, and the professor is reading, and our protagonist is like, I'm gonna go into the water. And the professor wants to go with him, but he clearly wants to be alone. So he goes into the water and he. He's in the water and he's observing people, observing another couple, and wondering if the young man and the couple is there in the same capacity that he is. Meaning someone who is pretending to want to be there, pretending to love the other person or if they're actually a couple, like a mutual romantic couple. And then while he's in the water, he knows he has to go back, but he really doesn't want to. He sees the professor talking to someone else, and he. His heart just starts racing, and he goes to them because he thinks he recognizes this person, but then he doesn't. When he gets there, he realizes that it's not really Johnny. Yeah. So that's what happens.

Carly Waters (37:41)

All right, thank you for the summary. And what did you think of those pages?

Cece Lira (37:45)

So very well written. Like, you know, not everyone who pitches literary fiction is actually writing literary fiction, because so much of that depends on the quality of the writing on a line level, the specific style. And this is. This is 100% literary fiction. I love the first line. Clay is in the business of fantasy, so when he sees the camels, he pretends that he hasn't. Specific, curiosity inducing, voicey, like, it's just. It's absolutely great. I wanted. The thing about literary fiction especially is that because the plot isn't what's keeping us turning the pages. Like, we're not turning the pages because of plot. And because of that, I think that we need even more depth of emotion and insight than we normally do in a novel. And so there were a whole bunch of passages in which I'm like, hmm, I want to know. I want more depth. Like, here's an example. The protagonist is using new sandals, and he thinks to himself, why couldn't the professor have forked out for some premium leather? And instead of a question, I want an opinion, I want a theory, I want more. I want him to say, when it comes to his own sandals, the professor does fork out for real leather, but not for his. Or maybe he has a theory because he got these. These sandals for him in a day when they were, I don't know, not doing super well. And it was a message. It was a message of like, I'm not going to get you gifts that are as nice if you don't act a certain way or something else. I don't know. But I wanted him to interpret and to go deeper and to offer strong opinions that just involve more cognitive brain power. There are other examples. So when he arrives at the resort. He realizes he must be the youngest there by a long stretch. How does that make him feel? You know, is he used to being in environments where he's the youngest, that he used to enjoy it, but now he doesn't anymore. I want to know how he feels deeply about things. Because in Litwick, I think we need that. There are some amazing observations. When the professor is picking out books and he pretends that he's going to read serious nonfiction, but then our protagonist knows that he's actually going to read Lord of the Rings, he says the professor always chooses fantasy over reality. And that's really interesting. There are great details. Like, absolutely great details. At the same time, I wanted even more depth just because I wanted to really, really feel like this book was going to deliver on psychological acuity, which I think is quite essential for literary fiction. It is a matter of taste, though. One question I had something that tripped me up a little bit is he is in the water. He sees the professor talking to a man, which he thinks is Johnny. And as he approaches the man and gets closer to the man, he realizes it's not Johnny. That part's great. We often, when we're looking for someone, we often see people where they're not there. It's very realistic. However, when he looks at the man, the man who now he knows is not Johnny, he thinks to himself, this stranger inspires the same mystifying urge surging inside like a rising tide to know him or fuck him or be him. That, to me, tripped me up because I don't want the stranger to cause the same emotions as Johnny caused on him. Because Johnny is special, right? Like, the whole point of Johnny is that Johnny is special. So if this random stranger, who he's really just seen for like a second and now realizes is not Johnny, if that stranger has the power to cause all these things in him, then it just feels too plot convenient, you know, it feels like, okay, well, he's feeling these things for random people. I think it kind of takes away from the special nature of his relationship with Johnny. So that was one note I had, one question I had. But again, overall, very strong. We have some excellent query letters and pages on this show today. Just saying.

Carly Waters (41:13)

I know. We totally do. All right, so my take, I love the first line. Clay is in the business of fantasy, so when he sees the camels, he pretends that he hasn't. I absolutely love that. I love all the lying, you know, on the first page. That's great. So a number of questions that I have, which I think is at the core of maybe my. My. I don't know, just how I feel unsettled about, you know, whether this would be for me or, you know, how I feel about the project. I think the query letter pitches this as he wants to make it back to the Professor. Therefore, he has to kind of find Johnny to say goodbye or heal something in him so that he can kind of move on. Because you give us the. He has to find him in seven days. I have to decide, you know, with the professor in seven days. So there's this, like, time crunch that happens in the query letter to suggest that this needs to happen within seven days. And then there is absolutely no affection from. Between Clay and, you know, from Clay to the Professor. And so was it there and then it's gone? Has he always been playing along? It's going to be so hard for us to want Clay and the professor to end up together if Clay doesn't actually want that. Like, so what is he spending those seven days doing if not to try to. I don't know, is he trying to find another way to live? And then what's the point of the Professor? So, I don't know. I'm talking myself in circles a little bit because I do really want to like this. And yet I'm trying to find the why of why I, as a reader would want to keep turning the pages here year. And I think I'm struggling with that a little bit. Overall, I like that it's very transactional. Like, I think that has a really nice edge to it. You know, we read so many kind of quote, unquote, like classic relationship books where, you know, it is based in love. And this is very clearly based in transaction, which I adore, how we can reflect on that in a different lens. So I'm. I'm very interested in that. But again, kind of come back to the concerns about, from the storytelling perspective, how does the transaction work there? One of the things I think this project does really well in these opening pages is the way that we kind of move through pace a little bit. You know, at the beginning, there's the discomfort of, you know, the lying and his foot's bothering him because of the sand and the cheap sandals. Then he gets to this moment where he's just, like, floating in the sea, which is, like, very peaceful. And then when he thinks that somebody is talking to the professor, that he doesn't want to be talking to the professor, the urgency really ramps up and you feel that, like, adrenaline rush of, like, what would you do if you were floating in the ocean and you stood up and somebody was talking to your person in a way that felt threatening to you and there's like that threat that comes up at that point. So I really love the kind of the way that we moved through the project there. Pace wise and intensity wise for a literary novel. I thought this did that really well.

Cece Lira (43:54)

Amazing. Thank you Carly. Thank you for these insights. We managed to get through it. We did it. You did it. Bianca, if you're listening, be so proud of us.

Carly Waters (44:02)

Yes, and feel better soon. And we will see all of our listeners and YouTube watchers another day. Bye everyone.

Bianca Marae (44:09)

Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CeCe, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader Matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't yet found your writing soulmate? The next matchup is the last one for the summer, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 1st of June, with the matchup emails going out on the 2nd of June. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup page.

Cece Lira (45:30)

What's up everyone? This is cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled and I wasn't surprised at all because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing. So personally, that is a wonderful thing because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on books with hooks and of course in my submissions inbox. But at the same time I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because, and I quote, my story gets better in chapter two I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor, is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean. It's because we get dozens and dozens every day. I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible. To make agents crave it. To make agents want to read more. That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course. Starting it how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way I created this course after studying hundreds of books. I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists that you can use to ensure that your story's beginning is seducing your reader. We'll cover how to write a great first line, different types of beginnings, and how you can choose the best one, the best places to start, and the best way to start. Yes, these are totally different things. When it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't. How to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory and what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline. Most of all, I'm going to show you how to make readers want to turn to Chapter two. Join me for this multi day course designed to help you break through the noise. You'll leave with a clear, actionable breakdown of exactly what goes into a terrific beginning. If you've already signed up, come prepared to take lots of notes. We're talking hundreds of slides with real world examples and specific techniques, plus a super fun surprise that I can't wait to share. I hope to see you there.