← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Infinite Options of Where to Begin
00:44:29
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
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- [00:00]
A
Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep Dive ever. Then the beta reader matchup is open once again with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the Shit About Writing to find out more. Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literal. Hi everyone, welcome back to another Books with hooks. As per usual, we are going to dive straight in. Carly, can you please read us your query letter?
- [01:10]
B
Dear Mrs. Waters, the allotment is an 82,000 word double POV contemporary romance that combines the grumpy sunshine energy of Lucy Parker's Battle Royale with the chaotically funny British Enemies to Lovers romance of Beth o' Leary's the Wake Up Call. I'm querying you because of your interest in uplifting humorous stories such as Kitty Johnson's prickly company Maeve Morton Face planted off the Internet, she was once a top food fluencer until a brutally honest Instagram live exposing industry fakery and calling out popular influencers saw her sponsors drop her and her followers turn. Now the Meltdown. Maeve is broke, stuck in a moldy East London flat and one overdraft extension away from moving back in with mom and dad. When after three years her name finally reaches the top of Bramblewood Allotments waiting list, she grabs the chance to stay in London and rebuild her brand with plot to plate content. Step 1 Claim Plot 27 Step 2 Try not to lose it when the committee double books your plot with a rude Frenchman. Sebastien Moreau was once a rising star in London's fine dining scene until a scathing video review went viral and destroyed his career. Or so he believes. The owners fired him within a week, other kitchens stopped returning his calls and he ended up scraping by in a battered crepe truck. Plot 27 is his lifeline, a way to cut costs by growing his own produce. The last thing he needs is that pink haired influencer using his allotment plot as a comeback plan. Forced to share plot 27, chaotic Maeve and rigid Sebastian grudgingly agree to split their beds and immediately launch into a passive aggressive horticultural warfare. Moved boundary markers, sabotaged bean sprouts, and a growing list of complaints from neighboring gardeners. When suspected vandalism finally pushes things too far, the committee gives them one last chance to show they can work together by fronting a food stall at the summer festival. Now, in an uneasy ceasefire, they spend long evenings watering, planting, and coming up with the summer festival menu. But just as they give in to the attraction, Sebastian reveals the truth. It was Maeve's first ever viral video that upended his career two years ago. Desperate to make amends, Maeve promotes his truck to her followers. But the stunt blows up in her face. Now, with their truce in tatters, they must decide whether to retreat to the safety of their solitary lives or brave the thorns of their history for a shot at something real. Thank you for your consideration. Awesome.
- [03:39]
A
Carly, what was the word count there and then? Can you take us through your thoughts on that?
- [03:45]
B
All right, so the author wrote it out for us. They said it was 420 words. They also wrote us a nice little paragraph at the top. So I just wanted to let you know that I did read that. And thank you. So 420 words. All right, so let's start. Oh, gosh. Let's start at the top, I guess. So you call this a double pov? Typical. Typically we say dual pov. I don't know if, like, double is a problem. I'm just letting you know that industry standard is generally dual pov. Other thing is, this is a. I should maybe start with by saying this is a very, like, UK centric book, right? The writing, the tone. So maybe in the UK, I haven't worked in the UK in 15 years, so maybe they say double POV in the UK and that's totally fine. But, you know, this is a more North American audience podcast, so I just wanted to flag that. And.
- [04:27]
A
And as we know, South Africans call them jewel POVs. Some are diamonds, some are emeralds. Yeah, okay, sorry, I just had to.
- [04:37]
B
Put that duals are doubles.
- [04:40]
A
Somebody actually messaged, emailed the podcast to go, what is a jewel J E W E L point of view? So I always feel like I need to clear that up. Okay, Carry out.
- [04:50]
B
There's sometimes what I'm like, oh, man, I wish we still had merch, because we could have been like, dual dual. Like Jewel, like, had some good merch. So back when we had merch. All right, so, okay. One of the things, and this is like a very personal thing, which is, I think I've talked about this before. There's some things where I, like, I struggle with a little bit. Influencer characters is one of these things I personally struggle with a little bit because the influencer landscape is always changing as a concept. And we have books that are written now or, you know, written a year ago, querying now come out in two years. And the influencer landscape in two years is very different. And so this is an example of something where I feel like we actually have to suspend quite a bit of disbelief because this person's version of what an influencer is. This very much more like the sweet side, the sunny side of influencer. Even though there's a dark side. I understand that she, you know, loses her followers and so on and so forth, but, like, we have to suspend a certain amount of disbelief of what we think influencers are, I think. So this is like a romanticization of what influencers are. Again, this could be fine for me. I personally have a hard time only seeing the sunny side of influencing. I see a lot of the dark side. So this is an example of why I think influencer books could be really challenging. That said, this is only the query. So maybe we get into much more of the dark side of influencer culture, which I would love. But anyway, this is just the query, but I just wanted to flag that because that's one of the things that I find really tricky about this. And they also are both influencers, I think, to a certain extent. No, he was a rising star until this game. The review went by. But, like, he has this online presence by being a top chef, you know, and. And being well known enough that an. In that a bad review, a viral online review could take him down. So I just wanted to flag all of that because as I said, you might just be focusing on the like, surface level side of. Of influencer culture, which can work, but it is kind of like a romanticization of influencer culture. Anyway, I hope that's making sense, but that's one of the things that I personally struggle with for people that are listening. Okay. Another thing that I think is a bit challenging here with this concept is I find that these POVs are very similar. You know, we have, like, he's a chef, but she is a. Like, she wants to be a plot to plate content influencer. She also wants to be a cook. And so we have two characters, obviously, one male, one female, both doing the Same wanting to work on this garden plot. The garden plot. Plot. I actually find it really cute that this is called a garden plot and the book is a plot and it's very like, plot, plot. And I find that very cute. So, yeah. So I find these characters very kind of similar in their trajectories, which I don't know where a lot of this tension is going to essentially come from in this book. It sounds like they are trying to kind of go at each other in a way that I just wonder at what point the reader is going to understand the conceit here. So anyway, I just. I asked some structural questions. As you can tell, this is also a very long query. It definitely seems a bit more summary heavy. So I. We have to do some cutting. We have to figure that out. And you know, it's really good at the end when you say it's. It was her viral video that happened in his career, but how did she not know that it was him when it was the taking it down of the thing, like. So there's a lot of confusion here, but it's very good that these two are actually connected because that's one of those things where you need this, like, real life tension, not just this kind of, like, imagine romanticized tension at the end. There's a really great line in this query letter that I love. I love launch into passive aggressive horticultural warfare. Love horticultural warfare. I think that is fantastic. So I think there's a lot here it's giving like, I don't know, Peter Rabbit or if you saw the movie where it was like, I don't know, this, like. I just imagine, like, them kind of going at this garden and things like flying everywhere, vegetables and fruits and just being like, messy. I love the. Like. That's a. Sounds like a messy plot with, like, messy mud. So I can really visualize this. So I think there's a lot of good things that are happening here. But I just wanted to flag those questions for you that I have. And we don't have you on the pod today, so I can't ask you, but I think there's something here. I just don't know if the dartboards go into the middle of the board here on this one at this point.
- [09:03]
A
Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece, handing it across to you.
- [09:06]
C
I too found the whole plot to plate thing to be absolutely adorable. Because of my job, I had to read it twice because initially I was like, story to plate. And then I was like, that makes no sense. So I had to reread it And I was like, oh, like a land plot. So clearly I need a break because I look at plot and I see stories everywhere. I'm not complaining. Small note in the first paragraph. The titles are not in all caps or italics. You just wrote it, like, normally. So, for example, the title, Battle Royale, it's not italicized. It's not in all caps. And for readability, I promise it matters. I know it sounds like such a small thing, but again, remember, the person who's reviewing this is going to be reviewing this in batches, like, 50, 60 at a time, or however many. And you really want that readability to be in your favor. I didn't understand how she didn't know. Like, how his whole revelation thing was a revelation. I think, you know, to build off on what Carly said. Even if she didn't know, which I'm not logistically clear on how that could be, the reader will know, because the reader will be in his head, so it won't be a revelation for the reader. And then I'm thinking, is it going to be sufficient climactic catharsis? Like, are we. Are we going to be surprised by this twist? We could.
- [10:29]
B
If.
- [10:31]
C
If you build up their relationship so much where the reader's like, oh, my God, if she finds out, it's, you know, everything will be destroyed. So I guess in that sense, it could. It's just a really. It's a tall order. And I guess it's something that I was thinking about. All in all, it seems like a really adorable plot. Something I will say, which I think is interesting, not just for this writer, but also for all our listeners, is I love it when food is woven into stories. Like, I love it. I love food themes and stories. I find it to be so interesting. And I know that a lot of acquiring editors want that, too. Like, it's something we hear from people who represent various genres that they love it when food is woven into books. I'm thinking of an amazing novel called Butter. It's a translated work. The original was in Japanese, and if you guys have not checked out Butter, please do.
- [11:19]
A
Wonderful, Cece, thank you so much. Okay, Carly, can you give us an overview of what was in the pages and then your take on them?
- [11:27]
B
All right, so we start in Maeve's point of view. So chapter one, Maeve, right away, we are in the bramblewood allotments. So the kind of land plot, garden situation. She is in her bright yellow boots, kind of mucking around in the mud, getting herself to where she thinks she needs to be has her seeds. She's like ready to plant, ready to go with her garden plot. Then she hears someone speaking French to her. She turns around, very handsome gentleman, really pulled together and is like waxed barber jacket. I think everybody can kind of picture what I'm talking about. And she is in a hoodie that says the Hot Mess Express. And so they begin to argue over whose plot this is. As the query letter says, this is plot 27. She thinks it's hers, he thinks it's his. He pulls out his paperwork. She pulls out her paperwork. They go in to talk to the organizer, and nobody can kind of agree on that. They chalk it up to going from a manual system to a digital system. So, yes, they were both allotted plot 27. And that is essentially where we end. This person sent in more than their allotted pages. Speaking of allotments, they sent in more than their allotted pages. So that is where I think Cece and I both stopped reading. And that's where we are.
- [12:41]
A
Yeah. Just a reminder to our listeners, and this is not just for the podcast. This is for. With any agent you're going to query. If they say five pages or 10 pages, they mean 12 point font and they mean double spaced. So don't try and do everything single spaced so that you can put in double the amount of information and think that they're not going to pick up on that, because they will. So anytime you see page specifications, it's double spaced. Okay, Carly, carry on.
- [13:10]
B
All right, so one of my favorite things about many UK books and books that write in a more UK style is they always get right to the plot. They're always like right in it, especially with the ROM com. This is something that North American list listeners and writers can learn a lot from. If you pick up any UK rom com or romance or commercial fiction that's UK based and set and written like, they're always right at the plot. And I love this about them. Okay, so we basically, as we, as I said, we start right in the muck of it all. All right, so one small thing. And people who subscribe to our comments and our newsletter on Tuesdays will get this. But there's something. There's quotation marks around the description of the earth. It says, breathe in the sharp, quote, honest, end quote, smell of damper. I don't know why honest is in quotes. Like, if it's not the right word, they'll pick a different word. Like, I just don't know why we had to kind of bookmark the honest smell of damp Earth. That'll be like the right word, then just switch it. So I really loved a lot of the visuals here as I kind of described earlier on with the mud. Like I love this idea of love, like mucking around. I think that there's, there's so much here that's like very visual. Know there's also the contrast between him. He has this, you know, waxed barber jacket. She's in her frumpy sweater and she says she looks through her purse to find like her documentation. And it's like my cheeks burning. I shove a hand in my tote, raking past receipts. A crusty dried up lip balm, a tampon, a half eaten cornish pasty. Where is it? I, I love this like contrast that we're starting to build between these two characters because as I said in the query letter, I wasn't really seeing how different these characters are. So I do think it's really important, the grumpy sunshine especially to be really clear about how these two are different. So coming back to my earlier comments on the query letter about influencer piece. So I think that what I'm, I think I'm clearly over analyzing this, but this is the lens that I come to this with. It's like, why would an influencer be walking around or influencer that needs to revitalize her career be walking around recording video in her hot mess experience brass sweater? Because so what she was doing, I didn't explain this when I summarized, but she was like recording video of her plot essentially for content before the French band walks up. And so if she is trying to revitalize her career, wouldn't she be in something and there can be tension there, right? She's in an uncomfortable outfit, but she knows the outfit she has to wear to revitalize her career as an influencer because the standards of influencers are very high. I guess what I just didn't understand that kind of like the way that she was presenting herself. I just didn't really find much tension there. I like the tension between the two of them in terms of the descriptions. But the way that she was presenting herself to the world and the way that influencer culture like shows up, like essentially her content in the algorithm is going to be up against trad wives because she's doing plot to plate kind of content. So how do you show up as a hot mess express when you're like competitors or trad wives? Again, I could be overthinking this, but this is the lens that I, that I come to this with. So I think this could be an example of. It's maybe just too surface level for me personally as an agent. And that could just be, you know, my take on things. So in terms of age, I want to come to age here. So it seems to me that this character is probably around 40 years old. Maybe the author has a different opinion of that. But you say, if I can stay put, just as well wheel my suitcase back to mom and dad's and bunk with my shelf of Beanie Babies I once unironically called my pension plan. So this person's in their. Like, they're 40, which is fine, but, like, again, that, to me, creates a level of. Especially in a rom com, especially in a book about a woman's career. How does she feel about being 40 and her having to, like, rebuild this? There's just. There's a lot of gender expectation kind of also into this and career expectation, which, again, I felt we were very surface level. And I would have, like, loved to see the. The darker side of that. So that's something that I think, you know, needed. Needed to be looked at. But I love that, as I said, I love that we start with the mix up. I'm. I'm a huge fan of starting with the mix up. I think I just really struggle with influencer culture if we're not getting to the meatier, darker side of it, because there's just so much there. And so this could just be a me problem.
- [17:31]
A
Thank you, Carly, for our listeners who are clueless like I am when it comes to fashion. And Kali goes waxed barber jacket. I'm sure everybody knows what I'm talking about. And then I sit furiously googling waxed barber jacket. And for those of you watching on YouTube, that is what it is.
- [17:50]
C
Is that right?
- [17:50]
B
It's like a chore jacket. So it's like a British chore jacket where they literally wax them because it rains so much in the UK when they're outside doing their outdoorsy stuff. And so they literally wax it. So it's called wax. So barber is the brand, and waxing is literally what they not, like, waxes. And, like, like, your legs, like, like, put the wax on the jacket.
- [18:11]
A
And when you said barber, I went to the guy who does men's hair, and I'm like, why is there a special jacket for barbers? So, yeah, so.
- [18:20]
B
But I'm. I'm, like, falling into my own trap. Yeah, I'm falling into my own trap of not describing things properly. That's why I'm not the writer Guys, this is why I'm the critiquer.
- [18:31]
C
I know this isn't shooting the shit, but I have to say, like, the. Bianca, the fact that you are not into fashion or into most things that a lot of people are into makes it so hard to get you a gift. Okay, I need to vent about this.
- [18:45]
A
Okay.
- [18:46]
C
Like, getting a gift for Carly. Easiest thing ever. Like, easiest thing ever. There's the million categories. She likes Bianca's like, what does Bianca want you to do? Bianca is, like, I don't know. To show her love. Like, I don't know, do your taxes or something. Which I would never do, obviously. But, like, you just. Yes. Acts of.
- [19:00]
B
But.
- [19:01]
C
But, like, I. I still remember this. Like, this is super personal. But when. When you're. When you're. When Muggle passed away, like, when your beautiful dog passed away, I made a donation to this shelter thing because I'm like, Bianca is not going to want flowers. She's not going to want chocolate. She's not going to want this. She's not going to want that. Like, it's so hard to get you a gift. Okay. You need to get into something that's mainstream. Get into something that's mainstream.
- [19:22]
A
The perfect gift that you got me. And also, I want a raccoon. So that's on my list. So if you give me a raccoon, though. No.
- [19:29]
B
Okay. No, we can't.
- [19:30]
C
We can't give you a ra.
- [19:32]
A
Damn it, people. Okay. Alrighty. So, cece, we're handing it across to you now before everything goes completely off the rails.
- [19:40]
C
Yes. Okay. We're totally letting Shoot the Bleed into books with hooks, people. Bianca will be so mad at us. Okay, I will start by saying that there's a lot of humor here, and I liked that. I kept flagging lines, and again, our Substack subscribers will see this, but I kept flagging lines that I thought were really humorous and funny. Small things. I really like it when humor is tucked into action beats and dialogue tag. I think it's a really fun way to, yes, have dialogue, and dialogue's so important for, like, movement and interaction, but at the same time, it's a way to keep us really tethered in the protagonist's interiority in a way that's like. Like tickling your brain. So I really liked that. And I did flag lines, and I do want to, you know, applaud the writer for doing this. I did not connect with the writing. For me, this was one of those situations where the writing for my taste, it didn't work. Like, I Kept. I kept having to reread sentences. I am fairly certain this is a me problem. This is probably just not the kind of book that I gravitate towards as a reader and as an agent. I make my decisions very much organically as a reader. Like, if I'm feeling curious, if I'm feeling emotionally invested, then I know I have a project that's for me. And if I'm not, then I know that project is not for me. Something that I think was really interesting here was that the two roommate situation reminded me of Elphaba and Glinda in Wicked, but, like, with a twist, with the romantic twist. Like, they do not want to be stuck together. He's clearly like, oh, my God, not this one. And she's like, not that guy. And I thought that that was really cute. And that's a framework that you might want to leverage when you. When you're talking about, you know, elements of your story. Again, I. This is not something that's for me. And you did not send it to.
- [21:23]
B
Me, by the way.
- [21:24]
C
You like, when people submit to books with hooks, they can choose who they want to like, primarily. Review this. Although we both review it and I. It was sent to Carly, so probably you know this. Probably you know that it's not my taste, but, like, for me, I kept wanting more mess. Like, I just kept really, really, really wanting more mess. And I also don't think the writing is. Is. Is quite doing your story justice for my taste. So that's. Those are my thoughts.
- [21:52]
A
Thank you, Cece. Before we move on to the next one, I do want to say we tape these episodes very far in advance. So this one is being taped on the 10th of December, and I just recently saw that Sophie Kinsella passed away, and that's incredibly sad. So I just wanted to, you know, pay tribute to an excellent English writer who is just phenomenal. And I think she passed away at the age of 55, which just makes it that much sad. So, yeah.
- [22:21]
C
Oh, my God, I read her novels in my 20s. Like, I. Like, they were, like. They were so formative.
- [22:27]
B
The news just broke this morning, so. Feels like a fresh wound for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
- [22:31]
A
And I know so many people, like, huge fans across, like, men, women, everything, so it's so. It's really sad. Okay, Cece, we're going to move across to your query letter, but before we do, just a quick word from our sponsor.
- [22:46]
B
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- [26:44]
A
Okay Cece, can you read it for us?
- [26:47]
C
All right. Dear Agent, I am pleased to present the One eyed angel, my 90, 000 word ya fantasy about an angel on a quest for revenge against her human ex lover. Told with a dual timeline, dual perspective structure, this novel is the first in a duology that takes the morally Gray characters and conflicted desire for vengeance in Emily Vargas, For She Is Wrath and combines it with the yearning human versus heavenly creature romance of Rebecca Ross. Wild Reverence. It began with a promise, as so many betrayals do. Twelve years ago, a young angel, Ilina, fell from the lands above and was discovered by a human boy, Pio Trek Halvorson. He promised to never hurt her. One year ago, Piotrek gouged out Ilina's eye to use it as magic for himself, then disappeared. Now, armed with a sacred oath and her sword, Aileen seeks vengeance against the boy she once loved. But when her journey leads her to Ymir, a kid vagrant running from an order of human magic users, she learns that Pyotrech isn't just a traitor. He's also a key player in a plot to free a demon queen. Growing up in a forgettable town with his abusive hulk of a father, Pyotrek wants nothing more than to be special and loved. Initially, he thinks he might have found it with the angel in the forest. But when his gnawing insecurity at her magical abilities gets the better of him, he leaves for the city, where he makes a desperate pact for dark and forbidden magic. For the power he's dreamed of, not knowing it will cost him the only love he's ever known. Now aware of Piotrek's wicked plans, Ilina knows that she and Emir must stop his ritual to free the demon queen. Still, she can't ignore the love she still inexplicably has for him. The very same love she must shut away if she wants to protect the world. I was born in the Philippines, but now live in Toronto, Canada, where I studied media production and screenwriting at Toronto Metropolitan University. I currently work as a bookseller and diversity book club liaison at Indigo, Canada's largest book retailer, and am a writing fellow at Inkspire, a youth led nonprofit organization. All the best, Samantha T. Awesome, Cece.
- [29:11]
A
Okay, word count there and then your take on that.
- [29:14]
C
So many thoughts on this one. Okay, the word count is 375. I need to. First and foremost, where's my magic wand? Magic wand for this lovely writer. Because this first paragraph is giving me all the metadata, everything I have, title, genre, word count, comps, plus a clear and compelling hook. Not just clear hook, compelling hook. You know, I read this and I go, okay, this is a story about what happens when an angel goes on a quest for revenge against her human ex lover. Like, this is interesting. I don't rep ya. And I was like, yes, please. So Good job. Good job to this writer. Okay, this is so small, but you wrote a kid vagrant running from. Isn't it a vagrant kid? I think it is. I don't think it matters that much, but, like, just. I don't know, it tripped me up.
- [30:03]
A
Plot.
- [30:04]
C
Plot is what matters the most in a query letter in from. For me. Anyway, this is actually a really interesting question to all the agents who listen to our podcast. What matters the most in the query letter for you? For me, definitely the plot paragraphs. This is so good. So good. Because you've established a mystery in the past timeline. What makes Piotrek betray Eileena? That is the mystery. And the best dual timeline stories make the reader experience dread in the past timeline. In this case, because we know Pietrak is going to betray Aileena, but we don't know how and we don't know exactly why, and we. And it makes the reader experience hope in the present timeline. In this case, the hope that she will get her revenge and that she will stop him from summoning the demon queen. This dread and hope combination should be connected by the same plot point, and it is the betrayal. It's very important to note that hopefully hope does not have to be all fluffy cotton. Okay. Hope can be. I hope she gets her revenge works for readers like me, this is very important for people to realize. They think, oh, hope, this beautiful, empathetic feeling, it can be. But it can also be like, I hope she kills him in fiction, people always in fiction. So, yeah, I love this. It's so, so good. I did wonder again, please know this query letter is fantastic. You could send it out now and I'm sure you would get requests. But since we're here, we're an educational podcast. That line. But when his gnawing insecurity at her magical abilities gets the better of him. I don't know that I like that line. I think you're giving too much away with that line. This is rare. Usually people don't give away enough. Part of what is going to keep the reader hooked here is why did he betray her? So you're sharing the emotionality of why he did it because he was insecure, and I don't think we need that. You can share the plot if you want to, because it happens early in the story. You don't have to share it, but you can. But I don't think you should be sharing emotion forward. Do you know what I'm saying? I think it's simultaneously giving too much away without giving us any Shape. So it's kind of like lowering the tension without actually giving us any concrete thing to predict and to anticipate. So I would tweak that line, make it less explicit, a little bit more mysterious. You just don't have. This is one of those situations where you don't have to specify what happens, but when the unexpected happens, he leaves, you know, he makes a dark pact.
- [32:34]
B
I don't know.
- [32:34]
C
I'm not going to write it well right now, but it's. It's something that I would tweak. I just really want to say, like, I only have applause for this. Like, I know what the protagonist wants. I know what's standing in her way. I know what happens if she doesn't get it. I know all this for Pyotrek 2. And there's like inherent conflict between the things they want. And I will add as a final thing, which I don't think we've talked about recently, so much is said about the author paragraph, what makes for a really awesome author paragraph. And people always ask me about things like awards and conferences they attend and writing courses. And these are all great things that you may choose to include in your author paragraph if you want to. But this person included something that I think is so valuable and that we don't talk about often enough, which is the fact that she's a book bookseller. Let me tell you something. Having a background as a bookseller can be such a big, big advantage for you when you decide to make it in the publishing industry. First of all, all the love to our hero booksellers. But also, this is not like because of some empathetic wheel of booksellers thing we do. But that's not why. It's actually because as a bookseller, you understand certain things about the publishing industry. You understand that books are returnable. We talked about this on show, shooting the shit, you know, a while ago. You understand that it's super competitive. You understand that shelf space is limited. You understand that readers come into the store and ask for books and ask for recommendations and don't buy all the books that people recommend. Like, you just understand more about the competitive nature of publishing when you have a bookseller background. So when I see this in a query letter, I go, this is going to be a client who will is more likely to be savvy and more likely to understand what it takes to make it in this, frankly, ruthless industry. So, great job. This is a great query letter. You really knocked it out of the park. Oh, look at me doing a sports Metaphor.
- [34:20]
A
Thank you so much, cece. Also, something as well that I think agents and editors can consider as well is that if you are a bookseller, you are going to be championed by other booksellers, you know, because booksellers support each other. So if this book gets published and she works for Indigo, all other Indigo booksellers are probably going to be hand selling this book as well, which I think stands, you know, somebody in really good stead as well. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you.
- [34:51]
B
I want to go on the record saying CeCe was very positive and she used a sports metaphor. So I think we need to take her temperature, see if she's ill over there. Issues are a wand. I mean, excuse me, are you saying.
- [35:03]
C
I'm not normally positive? I'm a delight?
- [35:05]
B
Okay, I would say I'm a delight. Your level of upbeat suggests that you have beat all the illnesses that you've been battling this fall. That's what I will say. That's fine. So this person did a great job. You know, cece obviously highlighted a bunch of incredible things here. What I want to highlight is something that I think the reason why we get so many, you know, fantasy queries on this show. And a lot of times I'll go, ah, there's something not working here. Maybe I can't figure out what it is. But what this one does well, which I can finally point out, because this is. This one's doing it really well. So we get a lot of queries that seemingly, and especially I'm talking about the fantasy space, have stakes. It's like the world is ending. Dun, dun, dun. And we're like, oh, like that should be a stake. The author's like, I wrote, stakes. The world's ending. But what this one does differently is that not only is there a big world stake here, there is a very personal stake, and we feel very deeply invested in the personal stake. And the personal stake feels personal because literally her eyeball was stabbed out. So that is what I want to highlight here. So not only do we have world stakes, we have personal stakes that, as cece pointed out, are connected, which is very important. But we feel very deeply because, as cece said, we are rooting for her. And part of the hope is that we hope that she gets this mfr. Okay, so other thing I want to talk about. Ya. Do we actually think.
- [36:25]
A
Did you say mfo?
- [36:27]
B
Yeah.
- [36:34]
C
We're all just positive today. Okay. It's not just me. There's something in the water, and we're not even in the same place.
- [36:39]
A
I've never heard that. Mfa. There was a very delayed reaction.
- [36:44]
B
Listen, I'm like, I'm trying to not swear as much, guys. Maybe it's my New Year's resolution, but.
- [36:49]
A
Oh, my God. Okay, I love that. Okay, sorry. Carry on.
- [36:53]
B
Okay. Ya. Do we actually think this is ya? I have a couple things to talk about in that category. It can be YA because you say it's ya. It can be YA because the age of the kids is ya. That's enough to be ya. There's a couple things I want to flag. The way that you wrote this hook is actually very mature, so I want to flag that. I know cece pointed out it's a strong hook. It is, right? Quest for revenge against her human echo lover. That's a very mature way of saying something. So I just want to flag that. The other thing I want to flag about YA is so you call this morally gray characters. And as soon as you said morally gray, I know that you know what you're doing because you're a bookseller, and what you're doing is you're alluding to dark romance. And so we have to be. You didn't call this dark romance, but that is something that we have to be a little bit like. Let's turn on our brains a little bit. What do we want to endorse for the way audience when we think about morally gray and potentially dark romance? Because at the end, you say she can't ignore the love she still inexplicably has for him. The very same love she must shut away if she wants to protect the world. If these two get back together, you're essentially endorsing abuse. And so we have to just. I just want to flag that, as, you know, maybe that can work in morally gray dark romance for adults. For ya, we just have to be like, let's take a pause. Is that what we really mean? What are the consequences of that, if that is what you mean? So that's all I wanted to flag there, but I think you did a really great job. This is a very interesting book. Your comps are on point. You're a bookseller. That makes perfect sense. This sounds great. It sounds really good.
- [38:25]
A
Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece, what was in those opening pages?
- [38:29]
C
Okay, so we have our angel, our protagonist, sitting alone at the bar in a musty tavern, and she asks, asks the bartender if he knows where the Amber Brotherhood meets. And the bartender is asking her about her eye patch, essentially, like, how she lost her eye. And he's saying, I won't give you information unless you give me information. And she gets really annoyed. And, you know, in conversation, she actually becomes aggressive towards him, and he kicks her out of the bar. And we learn through interiority and through a flashback what happened between her and Piotrek. So we see Piotrek betraying her. We see her at first confused that he was hurting her, thinking maybe he was possessed, but then realizing that that was actually him. And if it were a human, she would have died, losing all that blood. But he also wouldn't have done that to her if she were human. So again, we see Pietrek doing what he does, and we see him disappearing into the forest with the Amber Brotherhood's emblem on his cloak, almost mocking her. So obviously, this is why she wants to know where the Amber Brotherhood meets. So, yeah, that's what happens.
- [39:42]
A
Okay, so what was your take on that?
- [39:44]
C
Okay, my take.
- [39:46]
B
So from.
- [39:46]
C
From the top, I. The first line reads, the girl with the eye patch sat alone at the bar of the musty tavern, her head low as she swirled a tank filled with nothing but water. I don't love this first line. First lines are really important. Really, really, really important. However much you care about your first line, you should care about it even more. It's purely descriptive. It has lots of clauses, and it feels generic. And your book is not generic at all. So this first line is not doing your story justice. I would think of another one. You have some great lines. None that I thought to myself, this should be a first line, necessarily, but I'm saying this to say you have some amazing lines in this book, and so you can write amazing lines. Please go tweak your first line. Example is a description of her eye. It was a dark, sharp eye. As observant as two. Love that. As observant as two.
- [40:37]
B
Like, come on.
- [40:38]
C
That's so great. So, so great. I like that she. When she's talking to the barkeep, she says things to him, but through interiority, we get extra layers that reveal her power dynamics. The power dynamics in the room, the power dynamics in her life. So it is very, very good. I want to say that something that was not believable to me was the barkeep being so curious about how she lost her eye. Like, I just. I. I couldn't get into it. I was like, no, he wouldn't. He's a barkeep. He's busy. Like, do you know what I'm saying? Like, it just doesn't seem that believable to me.
- [41:12]
B
Or he was a baddie. Like, or he was a baddie. I was just gonna say I thought he must have have been a bad guy, you know?
- [41:17]
C
Yeah, but. But like, even if he's a bad guy, like, he's there to serve her drinks, like, do you know what I'm saying? Like, it just feels like it feel. It felt forced to me. That's what it felt like. It felt like we wanted her to think about the story of how she lost her eye. And so the guy kept insisting, and so we went on the flashback. And that to me, just read as really forced. So I personally don't think that it's a dynamic that works, which is actually tied to my bigger note. For my taste, this is too zoomed out on a technical level. Technical line level. You've done an amazing job at weaving in backstory. It's baked into the present scene, which is exactly what you're supposed to do. But what the present scene is matters. And in my opinion, you picked a present scene that isn't sufficiently curiosity inducing. And that felt forced for the reasons that I've already mentioned. So I wish you could be here so I could ask you, like, why did you pick. Why did you pick this as your opening scene, the present day one? And did you consider others? Because I feel like there might be, like, a special, a better opening scene for your novel, the present day one. And then if you really need the backstory to be woven in, I think that you're weaving in too much. So this is a second note on dosage. We don't need to know all the details of how she lost her eye immediately in the first five pages. We just don't, you know, there's a mystery to that. Let's keep the mystery going for a little bit longer. I think it's fine to give us some shape, but you gave us way too much shape. And by the way, he did it in a really good way. Like, it's strong. It's strong writing, strong scene work. But I think that in the dance of withholding and revealing, you're revealing too much. I personally, this is up to you, but if there's a different scene that you would have considered starting your novel, I would play around with that. And, you know, to all our listeners, it's really important to remember this. When it comes to choosing the best place to start, there is no such thing as one best place. Go to your favorite movie. Go to your favorite novel, the one that has the best beginning you've ever read. That beginning is a best place, but it is not the Best place there could have been another one. There's always so many versions of a really great place to start. And I encourage people to actually think about in the works they've already read and already watched. Encourage them to think about alternative beginnings. So you guys know I'm obsessed with Legally Blonde, and so Legally Blonde begins with Elle and the sorority, right? What other way, what other place could that movie have begun? When I ask that question to my students, people always think about other scenes in the movie. You know, they go, it could have started with her at the restaurant. It could have started. But there's also the version of a scene that has never been shown. And as a creator, you get to do that. You get to choose a scene that doesn't exist at all in your own work, especially. But if you start with other people's works, it kind of trains your brain into thinking, like, best place. What are the options? The options are infinite. That's exciting, right? So I would consider a different place here for the present scene, and I would withhold a little bit more in terms of what happened in the backstory.
- [44:23]
A
Okay, Cece, thank you so much. Okay, Kali, what's your take on that?
- [44:28]
B
All right, so the line, it was a dark, sharp eye, as observant as two. I mean, like, that's one of the best lines we've ever read on the show. Like, I. We've had some really great queries lately, guys. You guys are totally ratcheting up the level of quality here. That is blowing my mind. That's so smart and so good. So sometimes what happens is there's, like, a beautiful line. You're like, I don't want to change this whole scene because there's one beautiful line. But, yeah, maybe there is a way that you can keep this line and do it. Cc, he said, you know, change it up a little bit. Is this the right place for this to start? I agree. I think we forced it a little bit. I was just playing devil's advocate when I said, maybe the bartender's a bad guy. But, yeah, I think we are probably over sharing a little bit in terms of some of the details. Like, an example of what I don't think we need is as soon as he said something like, you know, not sure your lover will be very happy about that eye patch, which is a weird thing for a bartender to say. She just, like, goes back into the past and thinks about her lover and, like, has this whole, you know, the treehouse they built. It has this little memory anyways. Like, that's an Example of why did the park keep up, say lover? Because that's kind of weird. And then it leads to her thinking, oh, going back and reminiscing about that. So that's the piece where I'm like, if you. That's the piece that feels forced. And I think CC already got to that. But I wanted to make sure that I also shared my. My two cents. One of the things that, again, I think these pages do really well because often I will say, it's like, if something dramatic happens in the first five pages, I'll often go, I don't feel anything for these characters yet. So you could write a really dramatic scene. And, like, I don't feel anything. I actually feel really deeply. I think revenge is such a great, just like, motivator because I actually feel really deeply about the scene where she describes her losing her eye. I felt very visceral about that. I thought that was really, really good. The only thing that I think. And this could be a whole, like, you know, she's an angel and not a human thing, but she says very clearly, pietrex. She called his name once more with her last of her energy. What about our promises? I felt like that was a very tidy sentence. And so I don't know, it could just be, you know, because she's an angel, she can be, I don't know, coherent when she's in extreme amounts of pain. But I don't think that is. I don't. It's too. It's too coherent. I think that needs to be a little bit more of a. Something a bit more chaotic. But all in all, like, it is really good. I definitely have some question marks and I definitely wish this person was on the show with us so we could figure out some. Some things here, because I think we could brainstorm something really interesting. But if this person hasn't queried yet, you know, go forth, you know, just have a great time. And I hope that you find some incredible agents. Hope you can take our advice and it means something to you. If you are querying, I hope that you're kind of getting lots of requests and, you know, again, if some passes are coming in, maybe this is enlightening some things for you because there's definitely something here is really strong and well done.
- [47:19]
A
Thank you, Carly, and for all the agents who listen to the podcast, because we know there are a lot of you who listen to the podcast. If this query appeals to you, please reach out to us. We are always very happy to put you in touch with the author if there is any interest from your part. Okay, Carly and Cece, thank you so much for your critiques.
- [47:39]
C
Wait, before we go. Before we go. Any matchmaking that happens through this podcast is not an endorsement of either writer or agent, and no one should construe that as such. Please, people, we are here to celebrate, love and to share, but we are not vetting anyone. That is your job on both sides. Please, everyone, remember this. Sorry, had to say it, recent events and all.
- [48:01]
A
Very happy to have our lawyer, Cece put on her lawyer hat every now and again and save us from a lot of trouble. I'm just always trying to get every writer on this podcast and I'm just like, we'll, we'll. We'll say and do whatever to, to. To try and land them the agent. Okay, so join us next week for our author interview and then we'll be back to Books With Hooks the week after that. Thanks so much, everyone. Bye. Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query see cc, please refer to the submission guidelines at www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency. Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep Dive ever. Then the beta reader matchup is open once again, with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the Shit About Writing to find out more.