The Significance of Pacing in Storytelling

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Episode: The Significance of Pacing in Storytelling
Release Date: November 14, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of "The Shit No One Tells You About Writing", hosts Bianca Marais, alongside co-hosts Carly Watters and CeCe Lyra from P.S. Literary Agency, delve into the intricate topic of pacing in storytelling. Through the lens of their Books with Hooks segment, they critique query letters and opening pages submitted by emerging writers, offering valuable insights into maintaining an engaging narrative flow.

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Books with Hooks: Query Letter 1

Summary of Query Letter

The first query letter reviewed is from Author X, presenting a 98,000-word literary novel titled "The Girls" by Emma Klein. The story centers on 17-year-old Honey, who grapples with her family's decision to prepare for an impending apocalypse predicted by her father. As Honey seeks to uncover the truth behind her mother's disappearance, she faces moral dilemmas and personal growth amidst societal collapse.

Analysis by Carly Waters

Timestamp [03:59]

Carly commends the brevity and focus of the query, highlighting its effectiveness in conveying the plot without overstepping. She praises the introduction of a ticking clock—the world ending in seven days—as a compelling narrative device that enhances the story's urgency. Carly notes:

“I love that she seeks to find her mother. (...) this is, you know, just doing so much for this queer letter in a really, really good way.”
— Carly Waters [03:59]

However, she raises concerns about the comparison to "Educated" by Tara Westover, suggesting it may not serve as the most effective comparative title for pitching to editors. Carly emphasizes the importance of selecting comps that accurately represent the novel's market position and uniqueness.

Analysis by CeCe Lyra

Timestamp [06:54]

CeCe provides constructive feedback on the plot description within the query letter. She points out a lack of causality between actions, questioning how Honey's decision to steal a phone leads to trusting a new character and subsequently wandering the desert. CeCe advises:

“It’s really important in a story to have that dominoes tipping over effect. (...) So just flagging that as a, you know, very thoughtful but potentially not necessary content warning for the sake of the query letter.”
— Carly Waters [03:59]

She also praises the author's personal connection to the story, reminding writers to highlight the "truth within the lie"—the authentic emotions and experiences underpinning the fictional narrative.

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Books with Hooks: Opening Pages Analysis for Query Letter 1

Summary of Opening Pages

Carly reviews the opening pages, describing Honey's complex emotions as she participates in breaking horses and anticipates her father's decision on inheriting the ranch. The scene sets up familial tensions and Honey's internal struggles.

Analysis by Carly Waters

Timestamp [08:46 - 10:01]

Carly appreciates the vivid depiction of the ranch environment and Honey's emotional turmoil. She questions the clarity of Honey's knowledge about the wider world, noting inconsistencies between the protagonist's perceived naivety and specific geographical references. Carly remarks:

“I got the sense that maybe she's been told about these places but hasn't been to them. So how does she know these things?”
— Carly Waters [10:01]

She suggests refining the opening to better establish Honey's background and enhancing the emotional depth to align with the high-stakes premise outlined in the query.

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Books with Hooks: Query Letter 2

Summary of Query Letter

The second query is from Katie, presenting a 95,000-word historical novel titled "Dust". Set before the Oregon Trail's transformation of the American West, the story follows Casey, a young woman navigating a perilous journey westward amidst family conflicts, natural disasters, and personal loss. The narrative explores themes of survival, familial duty, and self-discovery.

Analysis by CeCe Lyra

Timestamp [16:23 - 21:12]

CeCe enthusiastically praises Katie's query, highlighting its clarity and compelling plot progression. She likens the narrative's cinematic quality, noting:

“I could absolutely shoot the movie trailer for this if I had to. (...) I just think you need to dig deeper into this protagonist's psyche.”
— CeCe Lyra [21:12]

CeCe emphasizes the importance of interiority—the protagonist's emotional and psychological landscape—to enhance character development and narrative engagement. She suggests deepening Casey's internal conflicts to better fulfill the story's promise.

Analysis by Carly Waters

Timestamp [22:26 - 32:42]

Carly echoes CeCe's sentiments, commending the rich sensory descriptions and emotional stakes in the opening pages. She raises questions about family dynamics and the balance of plot devices, particularly the use of multiple animal-related incidents, advising caution to avoid overcomplicating the narrative. Carly observes:

“I did not feel that the way that it was executed got across to me potentially the way that it was supposed to.”
— Carly Waters [29:29]

She underscores the necessity of maintaining narrative pace to keep readers invested, recommending streamlined scenes that advance the plot without unnecessary delays.

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Insights on Pacing in Storytelling

Throughout the Books with Hooks segments, both Carly and CeCe provide pivotal insights into pacing—the rhythm and flow of a story. They stress the importance of:

• Maintaining Momentum: Ensuring each scene propels the narrative forward without lingering on redundant actions.

  “You want to start at the top with the trigger warning. I don’t know if we need this... potentially not necessary content warning for the sake of the query letter.”
  — Carly Waters [03:59]

• Balancing Detail and Speed: Offering enough descriptive elements to immerse the reader while avoiding over-exposition that can slow down the story.

  “First lines are really important. (...) It's leveraging imagination. It's really, really important.”
  — CeCe Lyra [13:45]

• Deepening Character Arcs: Integrating interiority to develop characters’ emotional journeys, thereby enhancing the story’s overall pace and engagement.

  “You need emotionality and interiority to eventually lead us to psychological acuity.”
  — CeCe Lyra [16:17]

The hosts illustrate how effective pacing intertwines with character development and plot progression, ensuring a cohesive and captivating narrative.

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Conclusion

In "The Significance of Pacing in Storytelling", Bianca Marais, Carly Waters, and CeCe Lyra offer a wealth of knowledge for emerging writers. By dissecting query letters and opening pages, they illuminate the critical role that pacing plays in crafting compelling stories. Their expert critiques underscore the necessity of balancing narrative speed with emotional depth, ensuring that each story resonates with readers from start to finish.

For more detailed critiques and additional writing insights, listeners are encouraged to subscribe to their Substack newsletter, where comprehensive feedback and exclusive content are available.

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Notable Quotes:

1. Carly Waters [03:59]:
   “I love that she seeks to find her mother. (...) this is, you know, just doing so much for this queer letter in a really, really good way.”

2. CeCe Lyra [13:45]:
   “First lines are really important. (...) It's leveraging imagination. It's really, really important.”

3. CeCe Lyra [16:17]:
   “You need emotionality and interiority to eventually lead us to psychological acuity.”

4. Carly Waters [29:29]:
   “I did not feel that the way that it was executed got across to me potentially the way that it was supposed to.”

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Listeners are reminded to check out the Substack for full-length critiques and additional resources to enhance their writing journey.

Transcript

[Bianca Marais]

Omg. Have you seen the Deep Dive Virtual retreat lineup for the 1st and 2nd of February? It's incredible. Gatekeepers galore. As well as the authors who managed to get past them, we've got the editors and agents who worked on phenomenal projects like Station 11, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, Crazy Rich Asians, the Flight Attendant, Maame Wayward, the Wife Upstairs, the Tinder Swindler, Big Little Lies, the Perfect Couple, the Other Black Girl, and so much more. The presentation topics are brilliant, so practical and valuable regardless of where you are in your writing journey. One of our speakers, the brilliant Annabel Monaghan, who wrote the best selling Nora Goes Off Script, was a delegate at the very first Deep Dive Retreat and now she's kicking butt all over the place. Coming back to present. That could be you one day. Those of you who take part in the Thousand Words of Summer will also be super excited to see the fabulous Jami Attenberg in the lineup as well. Trust me, you do not want to miss this. Head to our website theshitaboutwriting.com go to the deep Dive page to see more information and and to register. We hope to see you there. Hi there and welcome to our show, the Shit no one tells you about Writing. I'm Bianca Marais and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Leera from PS Literary Agency. We'll be kicking off today's episode with our usual Books with Hooks segment, after which we'll go to today's guest. Hi everyone, welcome back to another Books with Hook segment. As per usual, we're going to dive right in to maximize our time. Carly, will you please kick us off with the first query letter.

[Carly Waters]

Dear Carly Waters. And then we have a content warning, trigger warning mention of suicide Set on a ranch in Joshua Tree National park. Out of the Eater, 98,000 words is a literary novel offering the rural coming of age struggle and educated by Tara Westover and the intense of a community enthralled by a charismatic man. In the Girls by Emma Klein. It will appeal to fans of Birnam Wood by Eleanor Catton and I love you, but I've chosen darkness by Claire Vay Watkins. 17 year old honey is breaking horses with her father when he tells her about his dream from God. The world is going to end in seven days. To prepare, Honey's father recruits a militia from those attending his survivalist training weekend to join them in their bunker on the last day and emerge to face the chaos of end times. Honey has no reason to doubt her father. She's seen the Black smoke from the ever increasing wildfires, the empty shelves in the grocery store, and the man hanging in the park, his suicide note saying he's been warned about the planet going to shit. Yep, she's full of doubt. Honey's mother, who disappeared five years ago, could always decipher the truth in her father's dreams. So Honey secretly searches for her mother. Honey is willing to steal a phone, trust a girl with a pretty smile, and wander the desert alone to bring her mother back. But after these sins, Honey discovers her mother has left for a reason. On the last day, Honey has to decide if she'll follow her family into the safety of the bunker or walk alone into an unstable world just as harsh and beautiful and on fire. I wrote this novel as a way to process what it was like to grow up on a seventh generation ranch in California while plotting to escape my family's fundamentalist cult. I left, much like Tara Westover, only because of education, therapy, and mostly writing. I was drawn to you through the voice tenacity of the authors you represent, especially Andrea Dunlop in the Women Are the Fiercest Creatures. I would be honored to be a part of your team. Thank you for your time and consideration. Author X Wonderful Carly.

[Bianca Marais]

Thank you. That felt quite short. What was the word count there and what was your take on that?

[Carly Waters]

This one clocked in at 389. And thank you to the author for writing it into your query to make it easy for me. So I feel like it felt short in a good way. You know, I feel like we really hit on all the notes that we needed to hit on. It was compelling. It didn't kind of over tell. It really focused on plot. You know, I want to start at the top with the trigger warning. I don't know if we need this. I mean, I know it's super, you know, thoughtful and cautious and you do have somebody, you know, hanging in the park and that sort of thing. But it is mentioned and not like described per se. So I don't know. I mean, as I said, I appreciate and applaud your thoughtfulness. I. I think this could probably be served a bit better in the synopsis if in the actual book itself you have a bit more on the page in that regard. So just flagging that as a, you know, very thoughtful but potentially not necessary content warning for the sake of the query letter. So in terms of the first paragraph, so educated is such an interesting comp because not only is it a great book and I do think it could potentially be a comp for you, it's one of those really tricky comps because it has become such a book that is larger than itself. And one of those comps, when we talk about it, it is starting to become ubiquitous in that sense. And it's a memoir, and this is a literary fiction novel, so I don't know if we need it necessarily, but I can appreciate how it is a comp here. I don't know it also, and I don't think this can necessarily be a comp because it's a bit old. It also reminded me a bit of History of Wolves. I don't know if you've read that book, and if you haven't, it's a really great book. One of my favorite literary novels. Yeah, I don't know. So I think everything you've written in that paragraph is super interesting and potentially on point, But Educated isn't one of those comps that I, as an agent, could then use and pitch this book to editors with because they can't use it as the comps when they run a P and L. So just flagging that. So one of the things I love about this query letter is this ticking timeline countdown. Love this, right? The world's gonna end in seven days. I love when we have this, like, ticking clock. Being like, okay. Especially in a literary. No, because so often with literary novels, they can be quiet in a certain sense, Right? So this is, you know, just doing so much for this queer letter in a really, really good way. So I love that. I love that she seeks to find her mother. You know, we know that the mother always had the answers. That's great. We discovered that the mother's left for a reason. Fantastic. We don't know necessarily if she finds the mother. It sounds like she potentially doesn't, but we do find out maybe she learns more about her mother, which is great. But overall, I think this is a really, really strong query. So I don't have a ton of notes. You know, in a structural sense. I think you're checking all the boxes. That first paragraph, you know, as I said, coming back to it, I have some questions potentially, but overall, this is a really interesting pitch.

[Bianca Marais]

Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece, we're handing it across to you.

[Cece Leera]

I feel like we need to count how many times we get educated as a comp on the podcast. I am a huge educated fan, so I'm not complaining, but it does happen quite a lot. My note is, as usual, about the plot paragraph. We have the sentence that sets the protagonist on their journey. Honey secretly searches for her mother and Then after that, we have a sentence which I believe is there to back up what that search looks like. And that sentence tells us that she is willing to steal a phone, trust a girl with a pretty smile, and wander the desert alone to bring her mother back. In my opinion, this type of framing is not serving your query letter because it's very loosey goosey. I don't understand how these things are connected. Does she steal the phone? And based on what she sees on the phone, she then starts trusting this girl? And is the girl the reason she goes to wander in the desert? Where is the causality? I don't see the causality. And I need to. It's really important in a story to have that dominoes tipping over effect. We talk about it all the time on the podcast for a reason. You don't want highlights. You don't want orbiting satellite points that don't fit together in a way that tell me what you're. What. Like, what thing caused the other thing. So that's really, really important. And I would revise that. I also want to say that the author paragraph that line about her writing this as a way to process her own growing up is great. Like, I loved that because, you know, one thing I do with my clients whenever we're out on submission is I always ask them, do you want to write a letter to the editors who are going to get your story? And, you know, you might want to choose to highlight in this letter the personal connection that you have with the story, like, where the inspiration came from. Like, where is essentially the truth within the lie? Like, yes, you wrote fiction, but what's the truth behind that story? And clearly you would write a fantastic letter, so excellent.

[Bianca Marais]

Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, will you give us a summary of what's in those opening pages?

[Carly Waters]

All right, so we start with our protagonist. She is watching her father break horses. So in the process of kind of training them and everything that goes along with being on a ranch, she is also kind of of the expectation that her father is going to choose who is going to take over the ranch. It is between her and her sister. She is almost 18, so she says, you know, I'm almost 18, and Father must choose who inherits the ranch, the land, and everything that comes with it. Before my birthday. And then again, we're watching the father kind of break the horses, and then she kind of gets the sense that she's going to be called in, and she is. And then he hands over the rope, and then it's kind of her turn to break the horse. She is kind of for the whole process, she's named the horse, you know, river, and has this kind of connection with them. So she has a lot of emotions that's going through her in this process. And then all of the kind of rage and jealousy and everything is kind of flowing through her body as she goes through the process of breaking the horse. And that is where it ends.

[Bianca Marais]

Wonderful. Okay, what was your take on that? Are the opening pages doing the heavy lifting? Are they getting us intrigued? Are they drawing us into the story? What do you think?

[Carly Waters]

So my big question here is kind of around that line that I read to you guys. I'm almost 18 and father must choose who inherits the ranch, the land and everything that comes with it. Before my birthday, I'm kind of thinking, who decided that? Right? Is it like, himself or the law or the. Like, there's a will or. I don't know. I was a bit confused about why. Now I get the sense that this opening of the novel potentially isn't where we need to begin because it does feel like it's just in service of trying to tell the reader something, as opposed to us choosing to enter the story at the exact right time. Another thing I'm a bit confused about is how much she knows about the world and the situation. So in the pitch, I got the sense that she is potentially not very worldly. And then in the opening paragraph, it's says behind him there's two columns of black smoke building from the peaks of the San Bernardino Mountains. One wildfire burning somewhere near Malibu or the rich homes of Santa Monica, the other choking the tourists in the Hollywood Hills for the eighth time this year. That kind of stopped me a little bit because I got the sense from the pitch that maybe she's been told about these places but hasn't been to them. So then how does she know these things? Maybe she has been there and I'm the one that's going to be surprised when, you know, she's actually toured quite a bit of, know, California for the ranch or something like that. I was a bit confused about that because also, again, you have educated as a comp. So my expectation is that at this stage in the book is uneducated and therefore there is an education to happen. So that actually really caught me off guard quite a bit, her knowing about Malibu and Santa Monica and the Hollywood Hills and who might inhabit that. So that actually stopped me quite a bit from, like, getting into the scene here. And I know it was obviously just for the sense of contrast or potentially to educate me, the reader, about how much he actually does know about California. So again, there could be completely intentional reasons for all of this. I did not feel that the way that it was executed got across to me potentially the way that it was supposed to. Because then in the next page, she says, I want to see just once, the redwoods, the great oak trees of the valley, the snow and the Sierras. I want to drive a truck up the coast of California to San Francisco, to Portland. So then I'm like, okay, then she hasn't seen a lot of the world, so what part has she seen? How is she learning about the world? Is it through books or is it through movies? How has she been taught about the world? So I actually didn't get a sense that I actually knew her very well or her process of being educated and growing up on the ranch and all of this. Yeah, so that was kind of my main. Huh. Thing about it there. And then the relationship between her and the dad is very interesting to me because we get the sense again, the dad has to choose between the sisters in terms of who is going to inherit the ranch and the point where the dad says, it's your turn. Father says to me, his voice low and rough, a sound I could recognize anywhere. You're old enough now. In that moment, I think there's an opportunity again, not to go into a whole backstory or, you know, diatribe here. But why would she recognize that voice anywhere? Or maybe it's that tone of voice she would recognize anywhere. Why does it make her feel a certain way? When was the last time he used that tone? Because obviously I know you'd recognize your dad's voice anywhere. Any, you know, if you've grown up with him, of course you would. Right? But what is it about that tone of voice? I actually felt like I didn't get to know anything really about their relationship. So I think there was just a huge opportunity there to really get into that moment. And then from a tech perspective, some parts of this weren't left aligned. So just check that to make sure your entire file is in left alignment. And I will stop there. Those are my notes.

[Bianca Marais]

Thank you, Carly. I know sometimes when I export from Scrivener into Word, it does this weird thing. So writers, just be aware of this. Scrivener can be a great tool, but sometimes it'll do these kinds of things. So just be aware of that. Okay. Cece, your take.

[Cece Leera]

Alright, so I'll share a micro note. The first line reads, father is Gentle when breaking his horses. Is that a good first line? Yes, it's good. I think it could be even better. I don't know if this fits your story, but I would make it father is only gentle when breaking horses. I would remove the his. I get that they're his horses, but we can learn about that detail later. Just makes for a tighter sentence. And I would add the only. If this is true, it makes me instantly curious about their relationship. I am watching a very young person observing how the one time her father is gentle is when breaking horses. And breaking horses essentially taming horses, which is something that requires asserting dominance. So I think there's so many interesting layers that could be foreshadowed from that sentence. Again, maybe it doesn't fit your world, but if it doesn't, then what line could you include that would make me not just curious about what's happening in scene the man breaking the horses, but the larger dynamic they share. Why is he not gentle with her or others unless he's breaking horses? So I think that that's something to think about. First lines are really important. First lines are essentially the opportunity any reader has of creating cerebral fusion. That's when the reader's brain and the storyteller's brain essentially become one, even though no one's in the same space together. It feels like magic. It's leveraging imagination. It's really, really important. And then the other thing I'd say, as a big picture note is I know that we are being told this is a very high stakes situation, like the whole two women, one spot, you know, But I didn't feel the emotions were landing. Like, the premise is very juicy, very interesting, but the level of emotionality needed to back that up, in my opinion. Wasn't there, nor was the interiority. And you really need emotionality and interiority to eventually lead us to psychological acuity. And the reason why Educated is such a fantastic book is the psychological acuity. So, again, I think you have a really cool premise. I just think you need to dig deeper into this protagonist's psyche, and I think that actually connects with Carly's really great note about what does she know about the world beyond? She's giving all these sharp specifics of Hollywood and, you know, specific areas, but, like, how does she know that? And so I'm wondering, you might have to spend some more time with your protagonist before this is ready. Or maybe you already know, and you just need to reflect that on the page.

[Bianca Marais]

Thank you, Cece. Okay, now we're going to move on to our second query letter. Will you please read that for us?

[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Leera]

Dear CeCe, based on your interest in stories about families, both inherited and found, I hope you will enjoy my 95, 000 word historical novel Dust. Set in the years just before the Oregon Trail forever changed the face of the American West, Dust follows a young woman's perilous journey west as she struggles to survive not only the untamed wilderness, but her unyielding Paw's tight grip on the family. A literary reimagining of westward expansion, it will appeal to readers of C. Pam Zhang's How Much of these Hills is Gold? Lauren Groff's The Vast Wilds, and Olivia Hawker's One for the Blackbird, one for the Crowd. 1843 Utah Country Casey is no stranger to hard times. Raised on a desert ranch well beyond the current American frontier, she works tirelessly to earn her stoic Pa's affection. But when a drought forces Casey and her family to leave the only home she has ever known, her life is turned upside down. She reluctantly adopts Pa's vision of starting anew in Oregon, but wildfire, illness, and rattlesnakes plague their journey, ultimately claiming Casey's beloved Ma. Bereft, Casey struggles to fill the hole Ma leaves and care for her younger brother, Colt, while Pa spirals into his own grief. As they reach the mountains, Pa's erratic behavior becomes a bigger threat to Casey and Colt's survival than hunger or cold. Desperate, Casey leaves their alpine camp in an ill fated attempt to seek help, only to find herself alone when she returns months later. Casey has almost given up on reuniting with her family when she meets a frightened girl who offers her a new sense of purpose and a clue as to Pa and Colt's whereabouts. But when she discovers why the girl is on the run, Casey must decide which offers a better chance of survival. Seeking out her family no matter the cost of the girl or pursuing the fragile independence she is just beginning to build. I am a strategy executive by day, a mom to a bright and exhausting 3 year old from dawn until dusk, and a writer during during those oh so precious nap times. As an active member of Boston's Grub street writing community, I benefit greatly from the wisdom of both the instructors and the other writers. The first five pages of the completed manuscript are attached. I would be thrilled to share Casey's whole story with you. Thank you for your consideration, Katie.

[Bianca Marais]

Thank you, Cece. Okay, before we go into the word count and your take on that, just a reminder to our listeners that the written critiques will be available in next Tuesday's Substack. So for those of you who are our substack subscribers, you can look in Tuesday's newsletter and you will find the marked up critiques there. Okay, CC Word count and your take on that.

[Cece Leera]

So this one came in at 404 words. Instead of a critique, I am offering a cookie. I know you can't see me, but this is so good. You get a cookie now because we are not in the same space. I will have to eat the cookie for you. I will be your proxy in enjoying the cookie, but you get a cookie. Seriously, this crate letter is really great. I could see the plot as I was reading it. I could absolutely shoot the movie trailer for this if I had to. I could picture her on her journey from the inciting incident all the way up until the climax. You've left room for mystery. Is her family still alive? What do this girl do while still giving us a whole bunch of really specific, escalating plot points? I am just applauding you here. Like, really, congratulations. And, yeah, enjoy a cookie.

[Bianca Marais]

You are so selfless, Cece, to have the cookie on Katie's behalf. Gosh, how you suffer for our listeners. I absolutely love it. Yeah, Cece's halo is about to strangle her. Okay, so now, excellent that you have written such an amazing query letter, Katie. But now the thing is, do the opening pages fulfill the promise of the query letter? And we will discuss that shortly. So we will see. Carly, what was your take on that?

[Carly Waters]

All right, so my big note was, you did so good. Exclamation, exclamation, exclamation, A plus, exclamation, exclamation, exclamation. So, you know, I was very, very impressed with this. My only notes, and obviously this is our job. If you're coming on our show, is let's talk about the comps. So how much of these hills is gold, I believe, was Booker nominated? Lauren Groff. The Vaster Wilds. I mean, if Lauren Groff hasn't been nominated for Booker, she should, like, we're talking about, like, capital L literary fiction greats of all time. Let's be serious here. So I'm expecting a lot from these pages. This query letter delivered on the quality of storytelling that I expect from those comps. The only other comp that you might want to think about is Four Winds. Kristin Hannah could be a comp here. You know, obviously haven't read your whole book, but I've read four wins, so I don't know, could be potentially an opportunity there. If you feel like those comps might be too capital L literary for your actual book. And I don't mean this in a way to be like, there's no way you can be as good as Lauren Groff. I would love it if you were as good as Lauren Groff. I would love to be like, we discovered the next Lauren Groff on the show. Amazing, amazing, amazing. That would be my favorite thing ever. But we always have to be a little bit careful when we're saying, like, our book is as great as the great. So I hope that that is true. And let's get into it.

[Bianca Marais]

Awesome. Okay, Cece, what are in those opening pages?

[Cece Leera]

So the protagonist discovers that a cow, unfortunately died in the heat, and she worries that they won't make it without the cow. The cow is a source of sustenance and food for them. She tells her mom she knows they have to move really quickly or else the meat won't be good. The mom tells her to then tell the dad, and she goes off to do that, and we see the protagonist walking to find her father.

[Bianca Marais]

Okay, so do you feel like she started in the right place? Do these opening pages fulfill the promise of the query?

[Cece Leera]

The opening pages need work, and this might be a situation where it's one of two things. Either it's not starting in the right place, and then I'd need to know more about your story to figure out where we could start, or you are starting in the right place, but you need to dig deeper. What do I mean by that? You are doing an excellent job of describing setting and of ensuring clarity of scene. Like, I know exactly where the protagonist is, what she's doing. Like, I. It was very clear, very organized, very thoughtful and polished. But when it comes to her interiority and her emotionality, I feel like we are barely scratching the surface. And I'll give you an example. From the very first page. There's a line that reads, you know, she really wants PA to recognize that she could contribute to the family. Like, this is a part of her emotional makeup. This is who she is. She wants to be someone who is seen as someone who can contribute, who can carry her own weight. And then she finds out that the cow died, and she's desperate. Right. The problem is that when you are someone who internalizes responsibility like this, when you are that kind of person and your job is to go feed the cow and you find out the cow died, most likely you will suffer tremendous guilt. That will be the irrational, illogical, but very human first emotion. You will feel guilt over having Letter the cow die now. And then after feeling guilt, you will. You might feel anger because you might go, I shouldn't have been the one, you know, left responsible for the cow. Or, I told them we should have fed the cow earlier. Or, you know, I. I'm too young to be doing this. And then after feeling anger, you maybe feel resentment that your sibling who's younger doesn't have to shoulder the responsibilities that you need to shoulder only then to feel guilt again, because you are now angry and resentful towards your little brother. So, and these are just examples, I have no idea what your protagonist actually feels. You know your protagonist. I don't. But my point is all these messy, layered emotions need to be there. We need emotions that logically make no sense, but are human. We need emotions that feel contradictory, but again, very possible for humans to feel apparently contradictory emotions. We need that inner turmoil without the inner turmoil. When she goes talk to her mom, all she's doing is relaying information that the cow died. You know, her mom then says, go tell your father. I got no information on whether that was typical of her mom or not. Like, she did not think typical of mom to let me do the work of telling dad. Or maybe she was surprised. Oh, my God. Mom normally wouldn't do this. She must be really freaked out, you know, if she's making me go tell dad or something else. How does she interpret her mom's actions? Seeing how she would interpret that is so essential to developing character and to really giving me access to her psyche. Or else I'm not going to be immersed in the story in the way that I need to be immersed to really, really imprint with the character. The second, like the second scene, which is when she's looking for her father, the pace is really dragging there. Like, I feel like you can cut that. You can cut 90% of it. We're getting a lot of, like, her, she's walking towards her father. I don't think we need to see that. I think you can cut. Cut to the scene where she's already there telling her father, because it's really, really important for us to keep the pace moving because we already know what she's going to tell her father. So just to see her walking and thinking, it's just not enough to keep the curiosity flowing. I think you have a really interesting premise. I think you have a really good idea, and I think there's a lot of promise in the execution, but I don't think it's quite there yet. Our Substack subscribers will be able to see additional notes. I have notes on the writing on a line level, notes on how to frame the direct thoughts in italics on the importance of doing that in the present tense and other notes. So check those out if you are a subscriber.

[Bianca Marais]

Thank you, Cece. Something I just want to add there before we go to Carly is that when we talk about world building in this kind of fiction, you know, when we talk about world building, people tend to think we're talking about fantasy or sci fi or something like that. But even in something like this, you need to be building your world. And that kind of interiority helps build the world. It establishes dynamics, it establishes a character's motivations, it establishes the biggest fears in the world without you saying, her biggest fear is this is letting so and so down. Her biggest fear is, you know, her father being disappointed in her. So make sure that you spend time on this kind of interiority, on this kind of emotionality as part of the world building, as opposed to feeling like world building is something that happens in its own paragraph underneath what's happening in the story. It really needs to be braided through everything so seamlessly that the reader doesn't even realize that you are doing world building. Okay, coming to you now, Carly, your thoughts on that.

[Carly Waters]

I want to echo what Cece was saying about the quality of the scene on the first page especially. You can tell this person went over this first page so many times, and I could absolutely visualize where we were in terms of the setting. I could smell it, I could see it, I could feel the heat like I was there. So absolutely fantastic job in that regard. And then obviously, when the animal dies, I was like, oh, I was so gutted. And obviously it's a very sad thing no matter what. But because we were so insane with our five senses, I think this was just a tremendous job. So everybody definitely check that out on our sub stack. Okay, so in terms of our notes, Cece was bringing up the interaction between our protagonist and her mother. And I want to come back to that as well. I felt like this was a huge missed opportunity because my notes here were just that. I simply didn't understand it because, like, I'll run you through a little bit here. You better go on up and find your pa, then. Ma's voice was uncharacteristically heavy. Colt and I will get a start on butchering. I could help you, Ma. Pa could hardly argue that the drought was her doing, but Casey could already picture the disappointment in his eyes when she told him about the cow. Colt's too small to be much use. Ma shook her head, retying her bandana to pull the wisps of hair, sweat plastered to her forehead. You know how he is. He'll dawdle up there, and he's just as likely to get lost himself as find Pa. You'll be quicker. So all of this was kind of around this idea of like, who's gonna be slower And I felt like in this last line, the mother thinks that Colt will be slow, but also wants him to help. So then why is she choosing Colt to do that job? Like, why is he better at that job than going to get the dad if he's going to be slow at both? I don't know. To me, I just. I didn't understand anything about the family dynamics from this interaction. And it was a huge opportunity for us to learn a lot more in terms of the specifics of what would any given person in the family do in that scenario. And again, that's just a great opportunity there to really double down and express to us how well you know your characters. I think that was really important. My last thing I'm going to say is that I personally find it's too coincidental that we have two animal issues here. And I understand that their relationship to the land and the animals, and obviously that's just huge in terms of their life. But to lose the cow and then for the horse to kind of get loose, I don't know. To me, it just felt like if this is a metaphor for something, you kind of did it twice in the sense of, like, okay, obviously the one animal dies, the other one is lost. What are you trying to say about our relationship to the land and the animals? And again, how this all connects in terms of this ecosystem? I kind of feel like we have to choose one. I just. I don't, again, don't quite understand why we need two animal issues here. All of it is beautifully written and I can visualize it, and it is really stunning in terms of the quality. But from a pace point of view, which CC was mentioning, like, we kind of. We got to get to the adventure and where we are in some ways, you know, stalling, even though it is five pages. So I leave all of that with you. I do think this is a super interesting premise and I do think there is really quality writing here. I think there's just potentially a bit more exploring to do about what these five pages need to do.

[Bianca Marais]

Wonderful. Thank you, Carly and Cece, as always, for your incredible insights. You can go to our substack and you can see them written up there. That's it for today's episode. Next week we have our author interview and we'll be back in two weeks time with another Books with hugs.

[Carly Waters]

A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the fulsome picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at PS Literate Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcast. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our Substack newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more. You can find it@the shitaboutwriting.substack.com that's theshitaboutwriting.substack.com.

[Bianca Marais]

And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes omg. Have you seen the Deep Dive Virtual retreat lineup for the 1st and 2nd of February? It's incredible. Gatekeepers galore. As well as the authors who managed to get past them, we've got the editors and agents who worked on phenomenal projects like Station 11, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, Crazy Rich Asians, the Flight Attendant, Maame Wayward, the Wife Upstairs, the Tinder Swindler, Big Little Lies, the Perfect Couple, the Other Black Girl, and so much more. The presentation topics are brilliant, so practical and valuable regardless of where you are in your writing journey. One of our speakers, the brilliant Annabel Monaghan, who wrote the best selling Nora Goes Off Script, was a delegate at the very first Deep Dive Retreat and now she's kicking butt all over the place. Coming back to present. That could be you one day. Those of you who take part in the Thousand Words of Summer will also be super excited to see the fabulous Jami Attenberg in the lineup as well. Trust me, you do not want to miss this. Head to our website, theshitaboutwriting.com go to the Deep Dive page to see more information and to register. We hope to see you there.