Those Aha Moments That Arrive at the 80 000-Word Mark

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Episode: Those Aha Moments That Arrive at the 80,000-Word Mark
Release Date: February 27, 2025

In this engaging episode of "The Shit No One Tells You About Writing," hosts Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, and CeCe Lyra delve deep into the elusive "Aha" moments that often surface around the 80,000-word milestone in a writer's journey. Featuring a special guest, New York Times Bestselling Author Gillian McAllister, the discussion offers invaluable insights into the creative process, character development, and narrative structuring that can transform a good manuscript into a great one.

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1. Introduction and Guest Spotlight (03:00 - 03:47)

Bianca Marais kicks off the episode by welcoming listeners and introducing the show's special guest, Gillian McAllister. Gillian is celebrated for her novels such as Wrong Place, Wrong Time and Famous Lost Words, and brings a wealth of experience in crafting compelling narratives.

Bianca Marais:
"It's a new year and time to get fresh eyes on your work in progress... Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no one tells you About Writing." ([01:19])

2. The Eureka Moment: Rewriting at the 80,000-Word Mark (05:49 - 07:40)

Gillian McAllister shares her unique writing process, highlighting how she frequently encounters pivotal "Aha" moments after completing approximately 80,000 words. These moments often compel her to overhaul significant portions of her manuscript to better align with her evolving vision.

Gillian McAllister:
"I have a kind of eureka moment where either something falls into place that hasn't been working, or I realize there's a much better way of doing it... I am the equivalent of kind of trial and error. I have... unfortunately, the trial is writing a hundred thousand words, and the error is throwing it in the bin and starting again." ([05:49])

Bianca acknowledges the challenge but appreciates the necessity of this iterative process.

Bianca Marais:
"Nothing is wasted. You had to write those hundred thousand pages to realize that there is a better way of doing it." ([07:40])

3. The Alchemy of Writing: Subconscious Creativity (08:18 - 11:03)

The conversation shifts to the "alchemy" Gillian experiences—where subconscious thoughts and previously seeded metaphors seamlessly integrate into the narrative, enhancing coherence and depth.

Gillian McAllister:
"There is a lot of alchemy in writing fiction. I suddenly thought the reason why I want to do it going backwards is because something happened long ago in the past that was like the inception of this crime." ([08:18])

Bianca reflects on this process, emphasizing its inevitability and the satisfaction it brings once everything aligns.

Bianca Marais:
"There is no part of you that wants to like, go, I'm not even going to write the outline or the synopsis for my agent. I'm just going to sit and write and see where it goes?" ([07:40])

4. Structuring the Narrative: Linear vs. Non-linear Timelines (12:27 - 14:13)

Gillian discusses her approach to structuring novels, contrasting the linear elements with non-linear narrative techniques. She explains how Wrong Place, Wrong Time employs a seemingly backward narrative to unravel the mystery progressively.

Gillian McAllister:
"Everybody thinks it's this kind of maverick backwards book, but actually it's a very linear mystery where on each day the protagonist finds out a new piece of information..." ([13:04])

Bianca commends Gillian's ability to craft time jumps that enrich the storytelling without disorienting the reader.

Bianca Marais:
"You know, what pop songs were playing at that time, what was in the news at that time. So I think that was the jigsaw puzzle of that is the reverse character arc." ([14:13])

5. Character Development: Depth Beyond Appearance (19:27 - 26:01)

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to character development. Gillian emphasizes the importance of creating multi-dimensional characters whose occupations and backgrounds are integral to the plot rather than mere accessories.

Gillian McAllister:
"I think generally things in thrillers ought not to be superfluous because the reader expects them not to be... I think if I'm going to join in the trend, I haven't seen it in a thriller, first of all. So I kind of wanted to do that." ([31:49])

Bianca highlights Gillian's talent in infusing depth into even minor characters, making them memorable and essential to the narrative.

Bianca Marais:
"This weaving of description of people, this weaving of giving us a little nugget that really sums up their character so that we can get an essence of a person beyond just what they look like..." ([24:50])

6. Authenticity Through Research and Creativity (26:32 - 30:59)

Gillian underscores the necessity of thorough research to authentically portray characters with specialized professions, such as a hostage negotiator. She shares her methodology of blending factual insights with creative nuances to build believable and relatable characters.

Gillian McAllister:
"I did, and I did get a sense of character from the hostage negotiator... I think it was what if he's actually a completely crap communicator at home?" ([28:02])

This balance ensures that characters are well-rounded, with professional expertise juxtaposed against personal flaws, enhancing their relatability and complexity.

7. Intentional Occupations and Plot Relevance (30:08 - 33:05)

The discussion turns to the strategic selection of character occupations, ensuring they serve the story's advancement. Gillian illustrates how each character's profession in Famous Lost Words is meticulously chosen to intertwine with key plot points, avoiding clichés and adding layers to the narrative.

Gillian McAllister:
"I think generally things in thrillers ought not to be superfluous because the reader expects them not to be... It should kind of earn its place a little bit." ([31:49])

Bianca praises this approach, noting how early-seeded elements seamlessly integrate into the story's development.

Bianca Marais:
"The title speaks to that, you know, his famous last words to her. And I wanted it to be not just the whim of the author." ([33:05])

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts (33:45 - 34:01)

As the episode wraps up, Bianca extends her best wishes to Gillian for her upcoming release, Famous Lost Words, and encourages listeners to support independent bookstores through their affiliate links.

Bianca Marais:
"Jillian, we wish you as much success with this one as you've had with all the rest. And we can't wait to read the next one." ([33:45])

Gillian McAllister:
"Thanks so much for having me on." ([33:47])

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Key Takeaways:

• Eureka Moments: Many writers, including Gillian, encounter pivotal "Aha" moments around the 80,000-word mark, prompting significant revisions to enhance their narrative.

• Alchemy of Writing: Subconscious creativity plays a crucial role in seamlessly integrating themes and metaphors that elevate the story.

• Narrative Structure: Balancing linear and non-linear timelines can enrich the storytelling, providing depth and suspense without confusing the reader.

• Character Depth: Crafting multi-dimensional characters with purposeful occupations and backgrounds enhances relatability and plot relevance.

• Authentic Portrayal: Thorough research combined with creative insights ensures characters, especially those in specialized roles, are portrayed authentically.

• Intentional Storytelling: Every element, from character occupations to plot points, should serve a purpose, contributing to the overall narrative without feeling superfluous.

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This episode serves as a treasure trove for emerging writers, offering a candid look into the complexities of the writing process and the transformative power of those crucial "Aha" moments. Gillian McAllister's experiences and strategies provide actionable insights that can help writers navigate their own creative journeys with confidence and clarity.

Transcript

[Cece Lira]

Hello from cc. I'm so excited to announce an all new class called Starting It Right which is all about how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. Now this is going to be a four day class so come prepared to take lots of notes. We'll cover the different types of beginnings and how to choose the best one for your story, how to frame your inciting incident in a compelling way, common mistakes writers make when starting a story, how how to balance exposition and mystery, how to make readers connect with your protagonist and how to make the reader want to turn to the next chapter and so much more. And guess what? For the first time ever, there will be an interactive component to my class. Everyone who is registered will have the option of sending in the opening scene of their work for a chance to be critiqued during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend and there are limited spots, so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend one or more live sessions because the recording will be sent to everyone who is registered. This class will begin on March 20th and like I said, will go on for four days. For more details, check out the link in my bio on Instagram. I hope to see you there.

[Bianca Marais]

It's a new year and time to get fresh eyes on your work in progress. Are you looking for beta readers, some of whom might potentially become writing group members down the line? Are you wanting to be matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs? At the same time, your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 2nd of March, with the matchup emails going out on the 3rd of March. Always such an exciting day. For more information and to Register go to Biancamarae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup tab and please spread the word even if you aren't joining the matchup this time, the more writers we have signed up, the better the matches will be. Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no one tells you About Writing. Hi, I'm Bianca Marais and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency. Hi everyone, we have an extra special guest today, so she is the New York Times Best selling author of Reese's Book Club Pick Wrong Place, Wrong Time, Just Another Missing Person and six other novels. She graduated with an English degree Before working as a lawyer, she lives in Birmingham, England where she now writes full time. She is also the creator and co host of the pop popular Honest Authors podcast. It's my pleasure to welcome Gillian McAllister. Jillian, welcome to the show.

[Gillian McAllister]

Hi. Thanks so much for having me.

[Bianca Marais]

That's wonderful to finally get to chat to you. I have been following your work for the longest time, been a huge fan, and absolutely flew through Wrong Place, Wrong Time, and then recommended it to everybody I knew. And it was one of those books that appealed to everybody because normally when I recommend a book to people I don't love a book and then just recommend it to everybody I normally curate, I'll say, oh, this friend likes this, this friend likes that. But this was a book that my husband loved, friends loved across all backgrounds, across all demographics. So that was incredibly special. To hit that nail on the head. We're going to talk about that book shortly before we discuss this one, but for our listeners, I'm just going to go into reading you the flat copy. Those of you who are watching on our YouTube channel will see the COVID for the book Famous Lost Words. But here is the flap copy. It is June 21, the longest day of the year, and new mother Camilla's life is about to change forever. After months of maternity leave, she will drop her infant daughter off at daycare for the first time and return to her job as a literary agent. Finally. But when she wakes, her husband Luke isn't there, and in his place is a cryptic note. Breaking news. There's a hostage situation developing in London. The police arrive and tell her Luke is involved, but he isn't a hostage. Her husband, doting father, eternal optimist, is the gunman. What she does next is crucial because only she knows what the note he left behind that morning says. Famous Lost Words is the story of a crime, a marriage, and more secrets than Camila ever could have imagined. Now, before we go into discussing this, for those of you who are working on multi POV novels and whenever you come on to books with hooks, you say, I've got multiple characters, I don't just have one character. So how do I write my query letter to reflect that? Now, this book has got a lot of POV characters and yet notice how on the flap copy we stick very close to Camilla's life and what's happening in her life as it relates to her husband, et cetera, et cetera. So this is a great book to look at, the flap copy. If you are struggling with summarizing the paragraph of a Multi POV novel. Gillian, I remember years ago following you on Instagram, and you were, I think, at the time, writing Wrong Place, Wrong Time. And I remember you seem to be galloping along with this manuscript, and one day you had this post and you were like, oh, my God. I just. I can't recall if you said it was a lucky accident or if you wrote something wrong or something just came to you and suddenly you realized that you would have to rewrite the entire novel in a completely different way to how you originally envisioned it. Could you take us through that for us, please?

[Gillian McAllister]

Yeah, I mean, I actually. I do go through this novel process with every book that I write, and reluctantly. It does seem to be part of my process. So I do quite a large planning document, and my agent even signs off on that synopsis. However, something always happens to me in the writing, and it is always after about 80,000 words, unfortunately, where I have a kind of eureka moment where either something falls into place that hasn't been working, or I realize there's a much better way to do it, or sometimes even something that I have been slightly distracted by becomes the main plot. And the first version of Wrong Place, Wrong Time only went back a few weeks, and it was about a woman whose son was caught up in a gang. So it's completely different. And my eureka moment was, there's a reason that I'm telling this book backwards that goes beyond just a structural kind of thing I wanted to do. And that was I. I feel like there's a lot of alchemy in writing fiction. And I suddenly thought the reason why I want to do it going backwards is because something happened long ago in the past that was like the inception of this crime, and that was the eureka moment. But I. I do have them for every book, and it's quite an annoying aspect of my process. I would say a lot of people can stick to a plan, and they kind of do it in a really organized fashion, but I am the equivalent of kind of trial and error. I have. Unfortunately, the trial is writing a hundred thousand words, and the error is throwing it in the bin and starting again. But that is, unfortunately, what I seem to do.

[Bianca Marais]

That's incredible as a process, but, I mean, nothing is wasted. You had to write those hundred thousand pages to realize that there is a better way of doing it. And you've got to go through the whole thing and then go, okay, I've now figured out kind of what I was planning to do, and now I'm going to come back and unravel that and start all over again. Is there not a part of you that wants to like, go, I'm not even going to write the outline or the synopsis for my agent. I'm just going to sit and write and see where it goes? Or is that so much a part of your process that you need, need the structure of the outline and then you need to be able to use that as a diving board from which to see what else follows?

[Gillian McAllister]

Yeah, I mean, there are twists in that first synopsis and I wouldn't know where to start without any kind of plan at all. It's just that the twists become different and there's a very big twist in Wrong Place, Wrong Time that I won't spoil for anyone who's not read it. But that came organically and it kind of made the plot a lot more difficult for me to handle. So I had to amend the synopsis. But yeah, that synopsis, I guess it is, it's like a safety net kind of starting point for me. I've just done a synopsis for my newest book and I fully believe I'm going to stick to it and not delete the first draft. But it's, this is book 11, so there is a level of delusion going on, I think. I think there's a lot of alchemy at play in writing a novel. And I so often find when I stumble upon an organic twist, it's almost like my subconscious has seeded it already for me. And at the moment I'm. Well, I've just finished edits on my book that's out early next year. And it's about a husband and wife who go on holiday to Texas and their teenage daughter is kidnapped and they receive an old fashioned ransom which says, don't tell the police, we've got your daughter. Meet us at this lay by. And the husband decides to tell the police, but the wife decides she is going alone to that lay by and she's going to do whatever it takes. And the thing that put itself in the book was that all along the wife was a chef. I liked writing about food and I liked the kind of hot headed temperament that some chefs have because she, she has to make that decision kind of in a split second moment. And she also, she has this scene in a flashback where she doesn't, she doesn't like to cook lobsters anymore because everybody always thinks when you put them in the pan they squeal. But actually what they do is they tap the lid and it kind of broke her heart. So she doesn't cook them anymore. And it was a tiny anecdote hidden in the plot. Then ages later, I made a decision about what happened with this kidnap and the daughter when they find her. And it isn't a spoiler because they actually find her. Very soon in the plot, she begins tapping on the underside of the boot the handover in a car. And it was like, I had already put that metaphor in the plot. And then she just started to do this. And all along I had no idea why she was a chef. I just put it in. But then these things just coalesced and there was kind of this perfect moment that I'd already seeded the metaphor for earlier. And I kind of can't explain things like that.

[Bianca Marais]

That is the alchemy of writing. It's when your subconscious is just putting it all in there and you just trusting yourself, you trusting the process. And then later you're like, oh, that's why I put that there. And that's why that happened. But then other times there are instances where you have to go back and do things in reverse. Like you say you'll realize a twist later. It feels kind of inevitable. Very satisfying, but inevitable. But then you do have to go back and thread it through so that at no point the reader's like, what? This just happened? This doesn't make any sense. So sometimes it's a forward going motion and sometimes it's completely working backwards.

[Gillian McAllister]

Yeah, it is. And I find the more working out I have to do, the harder it is. The best writing experience of me is like Wrong Place, Wrong time, where it felt like quite an organic and easy process, even though that book was a non linear narrative. And if you'd have asked people who've read my books, they would probably say that that one ought to have been the hardest to write, but it was the easiest. And I think the more work I'm having to do to make a plot twist fit, the worse it is. But it is unavoidable. And not all books are easy. Some of them are just problem children and some of them just spin on out of you. And every time I have an easy one, I think I've cracked it. And I know how to write a book now and then I have a really hard one afterwards.

[Bianca Marais]

Yeah, well, every book teaches you how to write it. And you do play around so brilliantly with time. You know, in terms of some authors always just stick to a very linear timeline. You, when I read your writing, there's always these time jumps which make it really, really interesting. And in terms of wrong place, wrong time. Did you write it the way we then saw it going backwards? Or did you have to start at the end, figure out what was happening in the story and write it forward? What did that look like for you in terms of actually writing it compared to how we saw it on the page? Eventually I did write it the way.

[Gillian McAllister]

You see it because I always say about wrong place, wrong time. Everybody thinks it's this kind of maverick backwards book, but actually it's a very linear mystery where on each day the protagonist finds out a new piece of information that leads her to find out what her son did and why. But what I did do was I had lots of post it notes, one going backwards, which was what she was figuring out and when. And I did have a set called what happened? And it started in 2003. And it. I had a set that I could deal out that I kind of looked at it and thought, okay, this is the actual linear narrative and I need to land here somehow. So it was helpful to have the forwards and the backwards version. But actually, you know, on day minus one she finds the knife, and so she realized that he intended to commit the murder. On day minus two, she finds his girlfriend who has got a dodgy family. That's the second clue. You know, it's actually a very straightforward novel and nobody ever believes me, but it was very easy to write.

[Bianca Marais]

I think where the difficulty would have come in is, for example, is a reverse character arc. Because we start with them older in life and their relationship is a certain way and we see them interacting with each other a certain way. And then as we go back to when they meet, you know, they were very different people then to who they are now. And we see the relationship develop. But also we see them in a simpler time when they had less money and they were living in very different circumstances. And it was like what pop songs were playing at that time, what was in the news at that time. So I think that was the jigsaw puzzle of that is the reverse character arc. As opposed to most stories, you start them off in a certain emotional place and then they end up at a different emotional place. Which you did. You just did it backwards. Yeah.

[Gillian McAllister]

And I think what I liked about Wrong place, Wrong time was that she had the same consciousness. So she was like a 43 year old in a 20 year old body. So in some ways she had all the character development, but she was just body hopping, which did help because I enjoyed writing about, you know, if you could visit your past, literally, how would you parent, but also how would you feel about your own body and all of the youth that you once had? And I liked staying in that old headspace in order to do that. Really?

[Bianca Marais]

That felt so organic, you know, because it was just like, God, look at this body of mine. This is incredible. I didn't appreciate it when I was this age and now it's, it's, it's absolute luxury. So yeah, that felt authentic and it made me laugh as well. Right. So before we dive into the opening pages of Famous Last Words, we can have a quick word from our sponsor.

[Carly Waters]

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[Bianca Marais]

Okay, we're back. Right. I want to read the opening two paragraphs to you for this book. Because what Gillian does brilliantly is she sets up a kind of hybrid point of view that is part omniscient, part third person close. And she zooms in and out the whole time to create tension and foreshadowing, which I absolutely love. I feel like it's a fingerprint of Gillian's work. There's some authors that I feel like I can open any book of theirs and not see their name on the COVID And there's certain things that I'm going to be like. This is what makes it a Gillian McAllister book. So it starts with, it is one hour before Camila's life changes, though she doesn't yet know it. All she knows right now, as she cleans the high chair while Polly sits on her Playmat after breakfast, is that her husband isn't here. He's gone somewhere, left her to deal with Polly's first day of nursery and her return to work by herself. Has he got a deadline? Has she forgotten some urgent project? And then it goes from there. But to start with the sentence, it is one hour before Camila's life changes, though she doesn't know it yet. Boom. It immediately creates that tension because the narrator is telling the reader something that the character themselves does not yet know. And so immediately the narrator and the character are in cahoots as they know something about the character and they wait for the character to catch up. So can you speak a bit about that technique, Gillian? And when you choose to use it in the novel and when you zoom out of that.

[Gillian McAllister]

Mostly I do third person close. I favor that in later novels because I think it's more elastic in. You can zoom out a little bit, but also you can be so close that you do show the character's voice, whereas I find first person quite limited for that. But, yeah, I do do that omniscient thing only occasionally when I feel like I'm not doing an omniscient narrator. So I feel like I have to choose where to deploy it. Where is forgivable. Because if you suddenly do it like halfway in the book or you head hop, the reader's kind of confused. Whereas I thought for the first sentence, it's kind of forgivable because the first sentence is so self conscious anyway. But generally, I do stay in third person close, I think, for almost the rest of the book.

[Bianca Marais]

Yeah, you absolutely do. But then every now and again, there is this omniscient voice that pops in and it always builds tension, creates some kind of foreshadowing, and again creates that tension where we're like, oh, we as the reader know something this character doesn't know. And we're immediately nervous for them, and we're immediately scared for them, and we want to see how it's going to play out something else that you do so, so well. And for our listeners who struggle with interiority, who struggle with sort of stream of consciousness, who struggle with the sort of main Danity of life, this is something that Jillian is so singular at that. She puts us in a character. She anchors us in that character's perspective. And we don't just get the big feelings, we get the small, fleeting thoughts that make a person who they are and that focus our attention. So I'm going to read you one page as page nine, just as an example of how this has done so well. So she's now back at work at the literary agency and making small talk with her boss. So it starts with Cam, her boss, Stuart says, rounding the corner to the kitchen. Welcome back. Tanned, strawberry blonde, mid-50s, ostensibly benign and somewhat dithery. Here's a list full of best selling writers that hints at his regular displays of brilliance. He's the sort of person you think isn't listening in a meeting, who then makes the best suggestion of anyone there. Baby well? Life feeling on an even keel yet? He asks. Oh yes, better, cam says, thinking that the house is full of piles of laundry of unopened bills. The baby doesn't sleep this morning. Cam showered while shouting nursery rhymes to Placator. When Cam sits in the garden every night, she feels the tasks looming behind her to do. Lists, specters that she doesn't have the time to deal with in the way she used to. All good here, she adds brightly. Great stuff, stuart said. It all falls into place eventually anyway, he says. He raises his arms above his head. He has been, for the past couple of years, the most toxic of things. A gym convert, an arm stretching. Cam finds the best tactic is to ignore him when he does this, and so she pulls the sash window open, overlooking Pimlico below, gardens out the back, and here in front, huge white Georgian buildings. She's missed it. The simplicities of a nice view and a hot cup of coffee that she can drink in peace. So this weaving of description of people, this weaving of giving us a little nugget that really sums up their character so that we can get an essence of a person beyond just what they look like and these moments of how mundane life can be interspersed with these really, really big emotions. Is this something that was like always your narrative voice and something you you just love to do, or is this a style that you worked on over the last 11 books?

[Gillian McAllister]

A bit of both, I think. I always wanted to be able to sum up characters in a single line, but it kind of felt out of reach for me. For, to be honest, at least my first four books I would search and search for the one line pitch for the character and write reams and reams about them and maybe do a lot More telling than showing. And then I did sort of start to learn, which I feel like there should be no shame in admitting, really, that it takes several books into your career to get the hang of some of the skills. And the description of Stuart is placed in kind of an anodyne way. He's not a particularly important character, but it took me months to work out who he was. And I really like to play with that kind of the idea that your Z List characters are still kind of main characters in their own right. And I do work really hard on those, kind of distilling them to that single essence. And it does take a long time, even though it doesn't. It doesn't add much to the plot, but it adds other things. I think it adds so much depth.

[Bianca Marais]

To it because the people feel so real and in the moment when the character's sort of looking out the window. We grounded in place and time as they're having these other conversations. I feel like you're a big people watcher, Jillian. I feel like. Do you have a notebook where you sitting somewhere, perhaps at a bar, and you see somebody who's got a weird little mannerism and you make a note of it to use down the line or. No. Are you just able to just sit and be like, okay, I'm going to keep working at it until I get to him?

[Gillian McAllister]

I do generally think of it out of nowhere. Yeah. I don't tend to write people I observe or know, actually, but I do write down a kind of notions. Like recently I. I was watching some reality show, I can't remember what it was, and one of the guys said, I'm just not the kind of person that goes after what they want. And I thought that's so interesting because I think most writers are. And I was thinking, like, it's kind of like the nice guy that finishes last because he kind of didn't think to play the game. And I did write that down, and I know that that will form the backbone for a character, but generally it is just lots and lots of thinking, I'm sad to say.

[Bianca Marais]

Oh, well, I mean, we've got to put in the work, people. So on one of your other characters, one of your other POV characters, Niall. So he's a hostage negotiator. And I love how you built him up, because we think. Hostage negotiator, you think somebody who just like swaggers into a building and, you know, does all of this stuff, but you show so much of the bureaucracy and all the bullshit that he has to deal with in the background and how he has to report to this one. And he constantly has to like, you know, account for everything. I'm assuming lots of research goes into that. So did you have to reach out to a hostage negotiator? Did you have to sit with them, go through their day, interview them? How do you build up that kind of character as authentically as you do?

[Gillian McAllister]

I did, yeah. I absolutely had to speak to one because some things you can kind of research yourself and kind of have a stab in the dark. But hostage negotiation is quite specific. And also I knew almost nothing about it. So I did, and I did get a sense of character from the hostage negotiator. But then I started to. I often think kind of what would be unexpected about, you know, the, the guy who is supposedly so good at communicating. And I thought, what if he's actually a completely crap communicator at home? And I think that's so often the way, you know, like, I'm very organized about novel writing and I'm always hit my deadlines and all of that, but I'm horrible to live with because I think that the novel writing kind of takes all of the organisation and I'm kind of a shambles otherwise. And so Niall kind of came about because of that, the dichotomy and also just the insight into. Because it is his day to day job, he finds elements of it boring. And he's not scared or exhilarated, particularly because he does it all the time. And I thought it was just interesting to have him kind of passing the time and, you know, drinking a lot of coke, because that was what was available and he was, you know, that's what he wanted to do. And I find it always interesting to get the interiority of somebody in like an unusual job.

[Bianca Marais]

Yeah. And I love that the things that terrified him most weren't the hostage negotiations, it was things in his own marriage, you know, so there's always that nuance, like you say, have somebody who communicates for a living, but he's actually terrible at communicating personally. And it just really elevates their character and brings them so alive on the page. I have time for one more. Two more questions I'm going to quickly ask you. So you've got four acts. You wrote the novel in four acts. Some are much longer than others. Was that something that was arranged after the fact? Once you had the whole novel, you were like, okay, I'm gonna now put them into the four acts. Or again, was this something that originated from the outline?

[Gillian McAllister]

It Originated from the outline because, I mean, it's kind of a novel of. It's about literature in a way. You know, the. The protagonist is a literary agent and her husband is her client, who' and I wanted therefore to have a kind of literary structure where there are acts. Actually, the first draft that I binned, there were three timelines. So there was the siege, and then there were seven years after the siege. And then the main part of the novel was 14 years after the siege. And that didn't work at all because I ended up in a situation where the main character had to fill in the blanks for the reader too much on what she'd been doing and why. So I ditched that and just went with set seven years. So it actually had many more acts in the first draft that was thrown in the bin, like all of them.

[Bianca Marais]

Last question about choosing occupations for your characters. So we get a lot of pictures on our show. We read first five pages and query letters to help people polish them up ahead of getting literary agents. And a lot of them like to have editors or agents in their actual novels. And we'll look at it and go, I don't feel like this character should be this particular occupation. Now. It was very important in this book you didn't thumb suck her as a literary agent and you didn't thumb suck him as a writer. There was important plot points that arose because of her job. And as you said, when you picked the chef, there was a reason for picking that. So can you speak a bit to that as well when it comes to fully building up a character, the intentionality in terms of what their occupations are, where they studied their background, all the rest of that.

[Gillian McAllister]

Yeah, I think generally things in thrillers ought not to be superfluous because the reader expects them not to be. And I thought it's a little bit of a trend to write about publishing. And I thought, if I'm going to join in the trend, I haven't seen it in a thriller, first of all. So I kind of wanted to do that. But I did think a little bit, like, wrong place, wrong time. You know, ultimately there was a reason I told that novel backwards, because the. That clue was deep in the past. And with this one, without spoilering it, it's very relevant that he, you know, he leaves her a note and he's a writer and she is used to editing him and reading his work. The title speaks to that, you know, his famous last words to her. And I wanted it to be not just the whim of the author. Because I think the moment you feel like, oh, Gillian McAllister just wants to write about the publishing world, I think you lose the reader slightly because there's a consciousness to the narrative. So generally I try to make the occupation relevant. If not relevant, then at least interesting, I think, because not, you know, not every occupation can unlock your plot. But I think it should kind of earn its place a little bit.

[Bianca Marais]

Yeah, absolutely. And there was a part where she had a client and I don't want to give anything away. The client wanted to do something so certain way. And as soon as I read that, I was like, oh, interesting. This is going to come back into play later in terms of the plot. So when it did, I was like, yay. Watching Jillian planting all the seeds early, early on. Okay, everybody, if you're watching us on our YouTube channel, I'm holding up the book Famous Last Words. We're going to link to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page. Buy it from there. You will support the podcast and an independent bookstore at the same time. Jillian, we wish you as much success with this one as you've had with all the rest. And we can't wait to read the next one.

[Gillian McAllister]

Thanks so much for having me on.

[Bianca Marais]

And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.

[Cece Lira]

Hello from cc. I'm so excited to announce an all new class called Starting It Right, which is all about how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. Now this is going to be a four day class, so come prepared to take lots of notes. We'll cover the different types of beginnings and how to choose the best one for your story. How to frame your inciting incident in a compelling way. Common mistakes writers make when starting a story, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to make readers connect with your protagonist, and how to make the reader want to turn to the next chapter and so much more. And guess what? For the first time ever, there will be an interactive component to my class. Everyone who is registered will have the option of sending in the opening scene of their work for a chance to be critiqued during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend and there are limited spots, so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend one or more live sessions because the recording will be sent to everyone who is registered. This class will begin on March 20th and like I said will go on for four days. For more details, check out the link in my bio on Instagram. I hope to see you there.

[Bianca Marais]

It's a new year and time to get fresh eyes on your work in progress. Are you looking for beta readers, some of whom might potentially become writing group members down the line? Are you wanting to be matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs at the same time? Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 2nd of March, with the matchup emails going out on the 3rd of March. Always such an exciting day. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup tab and please spread the word. Even if you aren't joining the matchup this time. The more writers we have signed up, the better the matches will be.