← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Untangling Complex Queries: Writing with Clarity Across Timelines
00:38:03
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
Loading summary
Transcript111 lines
- [00:01]
Cece Lehrer
What's up everyone?
- [00:02]
This is Cece. If you're a writer, then chances are you've wondered if your story is good enough. Maybe you're wondering that right now. I get it. Here's what I can tell you. As long as your story is making the reader curious, you're good. Now, I'm not saying you won't have to make edits when working with an agent or publisher, edits are part of the game. But I am saying that you will get ahead in your career if you know how to make the reader curious. The best way to do that? Infuse your story with plenty of tension, conflict and stakes. Which is why I'm so excited to invite you to join my four day course, Writing Tension Creating Tension, Conflict and Stakes in youn Story. It starts on October 13th. My favorite part about this class is that there are formulas. Yes, formulas for tension, for conflict, for stakes, and for the first time ever, we're having two optional interactive components including a query letter, studio and live critiques of select first pages. I'm super excited about this new format because I've seen it yield results in writers works and it works for writers of any genre as long as you're serious about improving your work. So if you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for this four day course. Don't worry if you can't attend live, the sessions will be recorded. For more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast's website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.
- [01:33]
Bianca Murray
Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader matchup?
- [01:37]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Or have you signed up before but.
- [01:39]
Bianca Murray
Haven'T as yet found your writing Soulmates the next matchup is the last one of the year, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 2nd of November, with the matchup emails going out on the 3rd of November. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and look for the Beta Reader Matchup tab. Please spread the word even if you aren't signing up this time. The more writers we have registered, the better the matches will be, which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors. Hi there and welcome to our show the Ship no one tells you about writing I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary. Hi everyone, welcome back to another Books with Hooks segment.
- [02:52]
Podcast Host / Moderator
As per usual, we are diving straight in. Cece, can you please read us the first query?
- [02:57]
Cece Lehrer
Dear CeCe, Carly and Bianca, thank you so much for your wonderful program. Through your show courses and socials, I've learned so much about writing over the years and have found the best community. I'm incredibly grateful. Worth the Whistle 99,000 Words is my grounded speculative novel for adults. Told along four separate timelines and from multiple points of view, this Midwestern saga features the intergenerational echoes of a gifted family like Tara Kar, Rob, Wild and Distant Seas, and the pursuit of healing with the deceased, as in an Ameli Salgado Reyes's My Mother Cursed My Name. Orphaned at birth, Benny wants nothing more than to find love, but has only an otherworldly gift for whistling to guide him. That and his mother, who will defy the laws of death to be with him no matter the cost. In 1960s Ohio, six year old Benny is removed from the foster system to live with his grandfather. Thrilled with the idea of being someone's real kid, Benny can't wait to experience the affection he's always craved. But Grandpa's estrangement from Benny's mother has left him too heartbroken to show Benny much needed kindness. Undeterred, Benny seeks the love and friendship of his neighbors and classmates with the aid of Lullaby, a woodland bird who teaches him magical birdsong. Whistling. These enchanting bird calls lead Benny to having friends and a wife and daughter of his own. A perfect little household that thrives even after Lullaby inexplicably stops visiting. When a tragic death splinters the family in 2025, Benny copes by bursting into birdsong as Lullaby taught him. This bizarre reaction stuns and offends his family, and Benny's most important relationships crumble under the weight of their shared grief and offense. Terrified he'll end up as lonely as he started out, Benny is desperate to make amends, but he flounders without Lullaby's guidance. If only she could visit one more time. Benny's mother knows he's hurting and that his end is near. Trapped in the afterlife, she is hell bent on escaping to save Benny from the misery that awaits him if he can't find peace before death. But illicit visits to the living have a hefty price, and this trip might cost her eternity with the sun. She's so Desperate to save like this Midwestern family. I grew up in small town Ohio. I now live outside Madrid, Spain, and work as a translator. Thank you so much for your time and consideration, Ashley. Word count without the very sincere fangirl. Paragraph is 382 words.
- [05:47]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Awesome, Cece. Thank you so much. Right, will you give us your take on that?
- [05:52]
Cece Lehrer
Okay, my first note, when I was reading this, our listeners know, especially our Substack subscribers, that I take little notes in the margins. And so I write my notes, and the first word I wrote was ambitious because four timelines, multiple points of view. You have given yourself a big challenge. And, you know, we admire ambition here on this podcast, but we're also honest about the challenges, so. So, yeah, this is going to be really hard to pull off. And I am not talking about the execution. That too. I'm talking about the query letter. You know, how do we get four timelines, multiple points of view, in a short, brief, succinct, but also compelling query letter? So here are my notes. The first paragraph, orphaned at birth. Benny wants nothing more. I'm not sure about that paragraph. I think it might need to go, because to me, it's creating confusion, like, what does his mother's defiance of death have to do with him wanting love? And then in the next paragraph, since it seems like that's when the story starts, I was like, wait, what? Hold on, I'm confused. So I think that paragraph has to go. Honestly, I think it's beautifully written, and I think that you're excited about it, probably because there's a bit of a hook to it. But when I get to the second paragraph, after the metadata paragraph, I want to know what the story is. You know, I don't want to get vibes anymore. I also think that when you are writing a storyline that takes place throughout four different timelines, it's best to start each paragraph. You should have four plot paragraphs, each of them with the date, with a different date. So the first one's doing that 1960s. Right. And then you can have the second one be, I don't know what it is. 1980s. The third one be, whatever. And then the fourth one, be, I imagine 2025, I don't actually know. But you will know. That will help us understand how these timelines are going to be braided together. There's a lot of trust that goes into reading a book. We have to trust the author, we agents, we readers, and we need to know, based on the query letter, that you've got this, that you have control over your story. And these timelines are going to be tight, and they're going to make sense and they're going to come together. And so I think that if you split it in this way, it will help keep you organized and it will help build trust, because I'll be like, okay, this person, you know, they have a lot of voices in their head, but the voices are information. We know what to expect. I think we need to know what the magic is so we know that there is a speculative element in this novel. MAGICAL BIRDSONG WHISTLING But I'm like, what's the magic? You know, like, I understand that it guides him to finding friends, but I just think a little bit more specificity in terms of that would help my big picture. Note, if anyone sees me looking to the side on YouTube, it's because this is where my computer is. So we need one clear arc for each timeline. Like I said, pov, goal, obstacle, climax. For each timeline, we need plot points. Right now, we have things that are vague. So, for example, tragic death, splinters, the family, and most important, relationships crumble and desperate to make amends. But he flounders. Those are vibes. Those are vibes. If I were a movie director, I'd be a terrible movie director. But if I were, I would not be able to shoot this. This would not mean that I had scenes in my mind to shoot a trailer. Like, there just isn't enough. We need plot points. So I suspect that you're facing these challenges because you are writing a really ambitious novel, and that makes sense. This is a good starting point in terms of you figuring out what's at the heart of your story. But I don't think that the structure is working. When I mentioned the need for an arc with, like I said, goal, obstacle, climax. I don't mean to say that the heart of the story isn't also important. I think it is. And having read your pages, I think that at the heart of the story is a mother trying to escape the underworld or wherever she is to save her son. But I don't actually know that. And you will know, so you keep the heart, but make sure you have these very clear timelines.
- [10:00]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, would you like to weigh in?
- [10:04]
Carly Waters
My assessment is really the same. I don't think there's another direction to go in. I think Cece's direction is the direction to go in. I think. You know, what I always say about multi POV pitches is that we need to know how each of these different POVs are going to come together in this kind of unifying hook. And I think the author tried to do that with the orphaned at birth paragraph. I think that was the attempt to kind of explain all of this.
- [10:26]
But there is only two characters in that paragraph, which is Benny and the mother.
- [10:31]
So in that, if that's what the author was trying to do, which, you know, I'm going to assume that's what their attempt was. The goal in that paragraph should be all four storylines. How do they intersect? And then you can go into, as Cece said, how each paragraph is going to explain each of the four Poes. I agree. I don't really see any plot in this. I see, like, an attempt to be mysterious, an attempt to explain the speculate.
- [10:53]
Say that again.
- [10:54]
An attempt to explain the speculative. And there's a lot happening. Right. So it's just so much simplification that has to happen here to get to a point where we could just understand it in a more straightforward way, because that's the hardest thing about writing an ambitious novel, is you can write an ambitious novel, but you still have to be able to pitch it and sell it in a way that makes sense to us. And that's how those types of novels become mainstream and not experimental. And that's the difference. So I think this query has a lot of work to do.
- [11:21]
There's something very interesting here.
- [11:22]
We're just not there yet.
- [11:24]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece, can you please tell us what's in the opening pages?
- [11:29]
Cece Lehrer
We begin with the Bird's Eye prologue. The mother is giving birth, but she never gets to tell her son how much she loves him. It's one page, very emotional, and then we go into chapter one. The boy is in the backseat of a car, looking out the window, watching a bird. The social worker, who's driving, tells him to stay still. He thinks of how the drive in the clean, comfy car could go on forever and maybe the bird would follow him. And that sounds great. The social worker tells him that he's not going to a foster home like he had thought. He's surprised. Instead, he's going to a relative's house. Then she says that if his grandfather likes him, he'll be out of the foster system, so he needs to be in his best behavior, and he should be very grateful because not many kids get this opportunity and to let her do the talking, because his grandfather is going to be surprised. So they arrive at the house, meet the grandfather, and the social worker introduces herself, saying who she is and saying, listen, I have a death certificate here. For you. And that stuns the grandfather. So that is the plot.
- [12:35]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Thank you, Cece. Okay, so we're beginning with that prologue. So the obvious question is, do you think the prologue is working? And then what do you think of the rest of the page?
- [12:45]
Cece Lehrer
The job of a prologue is to establish one of two things to being mood or mystery. This prologue does establish mood. It is beautiful. It's emotional. I don't think it's not working. But for my personal taste, prologues should make me curious. And curiosity is totally different from empathy. I so wish it weren't. It'd be so much easier if all we had to do was create empathy in a story. But it's not, and I am not curious. That being said, it's so short that if the author feels very strongly about keeping it, it certainly didn't bother me. And it was really well written. I actually have way more notes on chapter one than I do on the prologue, because I don't think chapter one is starting the right way. It is starting in the right place, at least one of the possible right places, but it's not starting in the right way. So we are in his head as he is being driven. And I mean, maybe this is intentional, but his thoughts and his emotions are framed in such a light way. I had expected more depth because of the prologue, which established that mood, but also because of the subject matter. You know, we have a child who's being driven. He doesn't know where. He assumes a foster home, and his thoughts are very superficial. His emotions are barely there. We have bodily reactions to emotions, but we don't have true, true, deep internal reactions with emotionality and with interiority. I'll give you examples. At one point, the boy asks the social worker, why is this new foster place so far away? She responds, did no one tell you I'm not taking you to a foster home? In response, we get. He dug his fingers into the leather seat. Open quotations. You're taking me back to an old one. Close quotations. So we have movement, him digging his fingers into the leather seat. And then we have dialogue. A question, a smart question. Dialogue is great. Movement is great. But what's missing is more depth, more interiority, more emotionality. First of all, there has to be visceral. Visceral emotion. Panic, fear. Because that is a big bomb to drop on a kid. I have many feelings about the social worker, by the way, because she does not seem to be a very good social worker. Which is fine, right? Maybe that's part of the tension. Maybe that's part of the author's intention. It's just that it's like the social worker doesn't know how to talk to a child. Or to the grandfather, by the way. But anyway, not the point. His reaction needs more depth, like it's a huge deal. And then it happens again in the next piece of dialogue too, because she tells him, do you know how many children dream of exactly this? How grateful they'd be, how they'd be on their best behavior? And in response, we have him blinking and wrinkling his forehead. And then he asks, how long will I be there? Again, totally fine. To keep the response you have, but you have to also go deeper. I am reminded of Bianca's note, many, many episodes where she mentioned friends, because of course she did. She's obsessed with friends. And she talked about how Joey, in teaching an acting class, talks about how acting is reacting. Now remember, for Joey and for any actor in a movie, reacting is all about the face, the body, the dialogue. But in a book, you have to go deeper. In a book, you have access to someone's psyche, to their thoughts, to the way they process information, to the way they process emotion. So really, we must have more depth here. A great example for psychological acuity is actually this line of dialogue I read to you about the social worker telling him that he should be grateful. Is he used to being told he should be grateful? Maybe all it makes him feel is angry. Maybe he's tired of being told he should feel grateful. You know, forced gratitude isn't. Isn't usually well received, especially in a child who has to taken on a lot way too early in life. So anyway, my notes are all about the interiority and emotionality, and our Substack subscribers will be able to see this. I do think you're starting in an emotionally charged place. There's a disruption, there's a shift, but you're not leveraging these elements. He is reading as. And I feel so bad saying this, but I have to. He's reading as generic and superficial. Like he can't. He can't read as generic and superficial. I do want to say there are some really great lines. I did highlight lines that I loved. There's one line that reads, the Groth's home looked awful. Lovely. A description that was only half right. And I thought that was so clever and really, really well written. So again, I really liked it, but I thought that we needed more interiority.
- [17:31]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you.
- [17:35]
Carly Waters
In terms of the prologue, it had.
- [17:37]
A very like, fairy tale energy to.
- [17:39]
Me, I actually really liked it. I guess what I expected. And I think. Which is some of the tension maybe of this project, which is how much of this is speculative or this fairy tale energy and how much of it is realism. Because I don't know, I just really liked that fairy tale tone. And then we moved into a bit more realism in terms of the historical setting. I don't know. I was just. It was unsettling. Not necessarily in a bad way. Again, that could just be some of the tension of, like, again, how this speculative side is going to be woven into the book. And I don't know if there's going to be, like, interstitials of this type of writing or. Because if there's not, then this is kind of out of nowhere, you know, I just don't know how we're going to come back to this tone, this voice. We do have, as we know for POVs. Is the mother's POV written in this.
- [18:30]
Type of tone, perhaps. And then it can work.
- [18:32]
But if this is the only part of the book that reads like this, then I think it's a problem. But if it's part of the mother's POV and her interstitials, I think that's probably okay because it is very warm and interesting, and I did like that. Okay, the boys chapter. I thought the way that the author tackled the historical writing was really well done, like, right away. I really liked the part where riding in the car, social worker driving the car, reached back to swat at him because he wouldn't sit down, but made no contact. She gave up and muttered, no wonder they're going to start installing seatbelts in back seats. Driving me batty. And that's just such a subtle way to be. Like, this is a time period when they didn't have seatbelts in the back seat. So right away, we know what approximate time this is. So I just thought that was such a great idea. And I did like the interaction between Shirley the social worker and the boy. She's just like, would you be still? And he's slumping and he's just, like, just wiggling. Right. And so, like, realistic of how I think that situation would have went. I completely agree with cece. I made a note of when I thought that the internal reflection should happen amongst this dialogue. And it was the exact same line you'll see in my notes, which was, the boy blinked and wrinkled his forehead, so how long will I be there? Like, that's when he should be. His mind should be spinning, coming up with all the theories about what's going to happen, you know, why is this happening to him, etc. Etc. So that's that's exactly the same point that I thought this would happen. Overall, I'm mostly just I don't know if it's curious. I don't know if it's confused about where this book is going. I don't understand where all these POVs are going to come into play. I think the writing is strong, but I think this is a really hard one to address in five pages because there's just so much that we can't know is happening.
- [20:11]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Thank you, Carly. I just want to mention one or two sort of line level things so this author really leaned into shape showing rather than telling. And I think that's where the lack of interiority comes from because the action beats were incredible. Like action beats instead of dialogue, tags conveyed nervousness and nerves, etc. So it's ironic that one of the line level edits that I want to recommend was something that leaned too much into showing rather than telling. So it says sit down, would you? The social worker driving the car reached back to swat at him. So the social worker driving the car is complete telling. And to do showing so that the reader can figure out the person's driving could be the social worker took one hand off the steering wheel to swat at him. So there we have. Okay, the reader can fill in the blanks. Something as well was we had some redundancy here. Those of you who have listened to the podcast know how I feel about she shrugged her shoulders. Remember, you cannot shrug your butt, people. So just she shrugged. Or you can say she shrugged with one shoulder, but we shrug our shoulders. So just she shrugged. Okay, that's it from me. Let's hear from our sponsors.
- [21:30]
Carly Waters
I just got back from my work trip to New York City, where it was still very much a summer, and when I landed home, I was finally able to say it's sweater weather. Yes, and of course we all know that cooler days call for layers that last. And quince is my go to for quality essentials that feel cozy, look refined, and won't blow your budget. Think 50 Mongolian cashmere, premium denim that fits like a dream, and a new collection of luxe outerwear that you'll be.
- [21:54]
Wearing year after year.
- [21:55]
These are the pieces that'll turn into your fall uniform. I'm eyeing the new wool coats and leather coats. They look designer level, but cost a fraction of the price and the quality. Honestly, just as good, if not better because Quint partners directly with top tier ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. They deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless. I want to reach from my Quint options every time. Both of my Mongolian cashmere items are staples in my wardrobe. I have the cashmere tea in gray. It still blows me away at how soft it is. And the Mongolian cashmere mock neck sweater vest in oatmeal. There's something so classy about a sleeveless sweater look because it doesn't bunch up in your coat. It is seamless, classy, warm. At these price points, I'm happy to wear them to the hockey ring to watch my kids and out to dinner with friends. The timelessness of them makes them so functional. If you want to be effortlessly chic and warm, I recommend these two picks. Find your fall staples at quince go to quince.com tisnatyaw for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too, that is quince.comtsnatyaw to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comtsnatya okay, great.
- [23:07]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Now we are going to Carly Carly, will you please read us your query letter?
- [23:11]
Carly Waters
Dear Carly, Cece and Bianca, I've learned so much from each of you over the years. I don't think I've missed a single episode in the last two years.
- [23:17]
So thank you for everything you do.
- [23:18]
Me for for us writers, Whalespeak is.
- [23:21]
My 89,000 word upmarket debut, which includes perspectives from above and below the ocean's surface.
- [23:28]
Right whales are beaching themselves near waitress Sloane Murphy's home, and she receives a.
- [23:32]
Shocking message that this beaching is not an accident.
- [23:35]
In the spirit of Richard Power's playground, intelligence in the oceanic world and human.
- [23:40]
Arrogance play a role.
- [23:41]
This may also appeal to fans of Shelby Van Pelt's remarkably bright creatures. Just as summer season begins on the New Jersey shore, 41 whales wash up on the sand.
- [23:53]
When Sloan recognizes one whale's familiar scar, memories of a tragic childhood boat incident.
- [23:59]
Surface, and with what appears to be a form of silent communication from the whale, she senses that this beached pod.
- [24:06]
And the accident are connected.
- [24:08]
Seth Kelly, a cessation specialist from NOAA sent to investigate the Beechings, researches the language of whales.
- [24:16]
Sloane finds this thrilling, especially when a.
- [24:18]
Humpback becomes a presence during her routine two mile swim, in which she is drawn into a bond unlike anything she's ever known. Newly aware of the increasing toxic, noisy ocean, Sloan looks to Seth to help.
- [24:30]
Her make a difference.
- [24:31]
But he suddenly disappears. In his absence, she discovers something much more toxic than the ocean itself. There's a plan in the making that will devastate the ocean and its intelligent mammals. And when Sloan finds that Seth may.
- [24:42]
Be involved, she sets up a wild.
- [24:44]
Agenda of her own. Meanwhile, beneath the surface of the Atlantic Ocean, a pot of humpbacks lingers long after the beachings. But they have already heard the sand muffled murmurings of those who died on the shore.
- [24:56]
The message was unclear.
- [24:57]
Yet what the humpbacks are sure of.
- [24:59]
Is something about a girl.
- [25:00]
The girl. The one helping the dying onshore. The one scribed in their collective consciousness. They've waited long, and she's finally appeared. While my business has been as successful.
- [25:12]
Artists, I'm also a longtime writer whose fiction and poetry have been published in such journals as Earth, Raven's Perch, and the Harbinger.
- [25:20]
I was rewarded an honorable mention by the Soulless Award Traveler's Tale for my.
- [25:24]
Short story the Bathroom.
- [25:26]
I participated in Community of Writers Writers conference working with the novelist.
- [25:31]
Redacted.
- [25:32]
Please see my first five pages below. Thank you for your time and consideration.
- [25:35]
Sincerely, Liz Kalt.
- [25:38]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Thank you, Carly. I think that came in at 435 words. Okay, so what's your take on that?
- [25:45]
Carly Waters
All right. I was very curious about this one. I think it's interesting that we're having these two queries back to back where there's like potentially a bit of like speculative element and animal element with the realism. So good job for Bianca for pairing these ones together. I think this creates an interesting theme.
- [25:59]
For our conversations today.
- [26:01]
Okay, so I'm just going to start at the top and work my way down. I really do like this title. Somehow it has a bit of a.
- [26:07]
Non fiction bend to me.
- [26:08]
Like if I just saw something called Whale Speak, I'd be like, is this a nonfiction about the history of whales? But I think paired with the right package, it could be interesting. So I don't think you necessarily have to change it. But I did want to give you.
- [26:19]
My first reaction to this one.
- [26:21]
The.
- [26:22]
The comps here.
- [26:23]
I think it is very obvious that this, you know, remarkably bright creatures would be a comp here. So you say this may also appeal. I don't think it's a May. I think this. It's a this will. So I would just watch that kind of passive wording there. I think I'd be a bit more confident with the Comps another comp. And I don't think it's worth putting in here because it's a different category. But there's a lot of this that reminded me of. And people who have kids probably also read this is the in the Wild Robot book series. So there was. Wild Robot 1 was made into a film in the third Wild Robot book. It is all about the robot and the sea creatures. So I really like that. So if you haven't. Just out of curiosity, if you guys.
- [27:02]
Are interested in this type of subject matter between humans and sea creatures and.
- [27:06]
How they connect, The Wild Robot 3 book is really great and completely on theme with this one. Okay, so I guess my greatest question about this is how supernatural is this? Like, how much are we suspending disbelief? Because I think there is a way to not make this a supernatural book and just make it about kind of our curiosity about the ocean. I guess if we start to go into personified animal creatures where we are reading them in their language but translated into English in terms of the communication, then there is maybe some explanation that has to happen. So I guess I'm just really curious about how supernatural. How much of a suspension of disbelief, I think in its current form, how the query is written. I think this author can probably pull this off. Like, I actually have no doubt here that they can do it. So I'm. That makes me really curious about how they're going to pull it off. But I'm. I'm sold. Like, I think, you know, you've written this in a way that. That is really interesting and definitely going to attract attention again for fans of Remarkably Bright Creatures.
- [28:09]
So you write in here, the Seth.
- [28:11]
Person is a specialist from noaa. I would write this out. I'm assuming this is like National Aquatic something, something, something. I would write that out. I wouldn't keep that as an acronym because that's not an acronym that I'm familiar with. And if, even if you made it up, we still shouldn't be in an acronym. It should be spelled out. So this bond. I mean, again, this is kind of hard where it's like, is this going to be a mental bond, a physical bond? How is this bond going to show up? I'm really curious about that. Again, don't know if we need to explain it in the query letter, but these are the things that are definitely coming up for me. I'm a little bit curious about how sinister we're supposed to think that Seth is, because she presents it as like, she's thrilled to interact with him, but I don't know. I guess I'm just curious about what you want us to think about Seth, because he may be involved. It's not that he is involved. So I'm a bit curious about. About their interaction and again, why she cares, other than the fact that he has the answers. So I don't know, maybe explaining, like, their bond as characters a little bit more specifically could. And why they need each other. Like, why does Seth need her? I would also be curious about that.
- [29:19]
All right, so I think those are.
- [29:22]
Those are most of my notes. I think this is really interesting, I think, for the type of agent that would be interested in these kind of personified animal stories. I think there's a lot to go on here. I think it has the ability to pull off the suspension of disbelief, which can be really tricky. So I really enjoyed this.
- [29:37]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece handing it across to you.
- [29:42]
Cece Lehrer
Okay, so plot paragraphs. When I got to the clause that read, she senses that this beached pod and the accident are connected, I thought to myself, do we need to understand how? Like, how are they connected? Because if it's the inciting incident, then you're not giving too much away by. By revealing that. But then when we got to the other plot paragraphs where, you know, Seth started being involved and all that, I felt confused about the central plot. So the beaching thread was abandoned. And I'll be honest, Substack subscribers will see this. I got a lot of anxiety about this, about these whales. I kept highlighting being like, are they okay? Did you save them dying or dead? Because at different points, you say different things. So there was a lot of anxiety here about the baby whales. But anyway, not the point. The point is that thread was abandoned is Seth's disappearance, the inciting incident, and the plan that Sloane uncovers. It just feels really vague right now. It's important to show a really airtight plot, right? Like a query letter should show a very clear inciting incident. I should never have to wonder, is this the incident, or is that. And then a very clear, surprising, yet at the same time makes total sense. Escalation, Maybe another escalation, and then the climax. Like, that's just super, super important. If we don't have that, I'm left feeling like I don't actually know how the plot point comes together. I think the premise is really interesting, but I'll be honest, I just don't know how the story. After reading this, I don't know how the story goes. And I'd have to. To feel excited about reading the pages. I'd read the pages either way, but to feel excited, I'd have to have a clearer, more concrete sense.
- [31:27]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, we're going to ask you to tell us what's in the opening pages.
- [31:32]
Carly Waters
All right, so this focuses on Sloane, the main character here, who is doing some open water swimming, which she does on a regular basis. She is holding her breath, kind of making some communications about how she thinks about animals and holding her breath and, you know, records for holding your breath. While she's swimming, she has an encounter with what she thinks is a whale. And in the past, she's maybe thought.
- [31:54]
It'S just like an illusion of them.
- [31:55]
Swimming around her, but she's, like, pretty sure that it's real this time. After her swim, she's going home to.
- [32:01]
Her house, which is above a fish.
- [32:03]
Market and a really kind of historic, charming building. Right away, she's confronted by two real estate agents who are around trying to get all the property in the area, and they're trying to make some offers to her son. Is really firm and like, I don't want to sell. Having already turned down what we think is, like, million or multimillion dollar offer, the agents are insisting on presenting a.
- [32:25]
New offer to her.
- [32:25]
It ends with her going into the outdoor shower, trying to get some privacy from them, just determined to shut them down.
- [32:31]
And that's where we end.
- [32:33]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Thank you. So again, we have another prologue. What are your thoughts on that?
- [32:37]
Carly Waters
So with this one, my note was, unless this is going to explain the mythology, it has to go. Definitely one of those things that's like, It's a very lovely piece of writing, has to go. Unless it's going to service the larger story, we don't need it. Chapter one. I really liked this. I think. I don't know. Again, this could be something that, you know, Cece can talk about as well. But as somebody who does swim in open water, there is something just so compelling about this idea of, like, you are swimming with other creatures. Creatures in here. And when I'm swimming at the lake, you know, where I swim in open water, I know there's, like, beavers that live in the lake. Like, you just know that they are. And it is kind of. It is really interesting to think about how we share our space with creatures and animals. Anyway, so I just really. I just thought it was a really well written piece and really explained that feeling really well. So I definitely enjoyed that. Enjoyed that. I wanted to know what season it was. I wasn't really clear on that, you know, is it cold? Is she wearing a wetsuit? Why or why not? Just kind of, again, leaning into that kind of like aquatic beachy element of it. I think we know from, I think.
- [33:43]
The query letter that it's the summer.
- [33:45]
But I don't really think it's spelled out specifically in the pages. And when you're doing open water swimming, the temperature of the water in the season is a very important piece of, like, how you are doing your swimming. So I thought that would be really.
- [33:57]
Important to focus on.
- [33:58]
I think one of my main notes for this, because I did actually find it really well written, is there are multiple references to Covid. So, you know, there's a part that says around March 2020, they, the real.
- [34:09]
Estate agents had stopped coming around.
- [34:11]
Da, da da, da da. So, I mean, again, there's something else CC and I can talk about. In general, the consensus right now in the industry, as far as I have experienced, is that there is not a reason to mention Covid. There is not. Like, unless, again, you're trying to do something specific about that time period. It's a medical piece. There really just isn't any sort of reason to be writing about it. It makes people think about some of, like, the worst times in our recent history and the isolation and the depression. Like, it just doesn't really bring a lot of good vibes to a piece. So in general, I'm just, you know, again, cc, you can chime in here. Bianca, feel free to chime in as well. I would say, unless you need to mention it, please don't, because this person mentions it both times, which also worries me a little bit that maybe the pandemic setting is crucial to this novel. And that, again, worries me a little bit. Again, I would just try to try to avoid that. So that's really my only note. Like, I really enjoyed this piece. I. I thought it was really well done. But we need to figure out how much of COVID is important into this, because maybe it is a big piece because, you know, again, we're talking about animals and the connection between humans and nature and toxicity. And so there could be a larger scientific theme that's happening here, which this author feels very strongly that Covid has to be in here. I would ask that it is not. And with that, I'll turn it over to you guys.
- [35:32]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Thank you. Carly. Something. I had to read the piece multiple times because I was getting confused between Quinn and Sloane because Quinn, to me, sounded like a woman's name. And every time there was reference to Quinn and she. I was like, is that Quinn she, or is that she Sloane? And then it was only revealed, I think, like, four pages in, that Quinn was a man. And I was like, was that meant to be a reveal? Because it kind of made me confused. Cece, did you have that problem or was it just me?
- [36:00]
Cece Lehrer
I had the exact same problem. I have a note. First page. Quinn had always said that only a whale could hold their breath longer than she could. I'm like, she Quinn or she Sloane? Like, what? And again, sometimes you can withhold things to surprise and delight the reader, but in this case, for my brain, it confused me. You do not want confusion. You want curiosity. So, yeah, that also confused me.
- [36:29]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Okay, Cece, so give us your take on the rest of the pages.
- [36:33]
Cece Lehrer
I am in firm agreement with Carly that this prologue is just not working. Like, the first two paragraphs about the pandemic seem entirely disconnected from the third. I had assumed that the pandemic was integral to the story, because the first line is, something beautiful happened in the upright year of 2020, and it's all about how humans stopped being so terrible. And, like, the sea creatures don't know why they don't know about COVID And all of a sudden, you know, the sea creatures got to be free again, and they weren't as. As hunted as before and all that. So that's fine. Like, if that. If it is actually integral to your story, cool. But I don't think that the prologue is doing the job of adding the mood and the mystery in the way. That's leveraging curiosity. And I think the prologue has to go. If you need another prologue to leverage mood and curiosity, please try that. But this one is not doing that. And then the references in chapter one to Covid. Okay, again, so, mean. Author, you have to forgive me, okay? As you're listening to this, please forgive me, but it made your protagonist seem like a crazy person. Like, she sees these real estate agents, and we learned through interiority that they would come around all the time trying to get her to sell her house, but then they stopped coming. So she was like, oh, maybe they died, first of all. Sure, that can be a theory, but it's much more likely that they're just hunkering down like everyone else. Like, she thinks to herself, why did they stop coming around? Maybe they died. No, I don't think she'd think that, and I certainly don't think she'd say it. She turns to the people, and she says, oh, you're alive. Like, who is this person? And by the way, if you want to write a quirky character who, much like myself, says things that perhaps shock people and then later goes, oh, shoot, why did I say that? But then you have to actually write that in. You know, you have to write in her interiority, style, the way she processes information. I just didn't think that the COVID references in chapter one were adding anything to the story. It felt like you were putting it there to remind us that Covid happened. We don't need reminders that Covid happened. We are sufficiently traumatized by that. So, yeah, I just thought it was kind of a stretch. I did really like the way she reacted to seeing the real estate agents in terms of her confrontation style. Something I'm always looking for in terms of having, like, a well rounded, well developed character is what is your protagonist's confrontation style? And in her case, she's clearly avoidant because she considers taking a jog around the block. But then they see her. And I thought that was really clever and really, well, well done. I do think that there's lots of opportunity for depth and character development. Especially, for example, she has an offer for a million dollars on her house. Now, when someone has an offer for a million dollars on anything, really, there has to be a moment of, well, what does that money mean for her? And there's none of that. You know, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm someone who. I expect people to have financial anxiety, but I actually think that in order for us to connect with the character, we need to know how she feels about the subjects that are kind of taboo in our society, the stuff that really matters, but we don't talk about. And one of these things is money. Money is one of those subjects that. It affects all of our lives. It. It's really, really important. But there's also socialization that we're not supposed to talk about it. We're not supposed to, you know, mention money in conversations. It's not polite. It's tacky, all that. But we're inside her head so we can know how she feels about a million dollars. And we have dialogue in which she mentions it, but we don't have interiority. So I definitely don't think you're starting in the right place. The swim is very slow. I have swam in the ocean more times than I can count in my life. I grew up by the ocean. I was forced to go outside and be under the sun. I was not allowed to read all day, much to my disappointment. And, yeah, swimming in the ocean's great you're with nature and all that, but it's not a particularly compelling place to start a story, you know, because there's not just there aren't things happening. And I get that she sees the whale. She's not sure if she actually sees the whale. She had sensed the whale before, but that to me was just too slow. So don't think you're starting in the right place. And I think that you have to give us more access to your protagonist.
- [40:57]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Thank you, cece. Okay, that's it for today's episode. Thanks so much to Carly and Cece for sharing their insights. If you would like to submit for the Books with Hook segment, go to our website the Shit About Writing. Find the Books With Hooks tab and you can submit there. If you submitted within the last four months and haven't heard your query on the podcast, feel free to submit again. Either a revised work or something new. Right. Next week we'll be back with another Author episode, and in two weeks we'll be back with another Bookswith Hooks. Bye everyone.
- [41:29]
Bianca Murray
Cece Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
- [41:34]
Podcast Host / Moderator
If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com.
- [41:42]
Bianca Murray
Carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S.
- [41:46]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS Literary Agency.
- [42:06]
Cece Lehrer
What's up everyone?
- [42:07]
This is Cece. If you're a writer, then chances are you've wondered if your story is good enough. Maybe you're wondering that right now. I get it. Here's what I can tell you. As long as your story is making the reader curious, you're good. Now, I'm not saying you won't have to make edits when working with an agent or publisher, edits are part of the game. But I am saying that you will get ahead in your career if you know how to make the reader curious. The best way to do that? Infuse your story with plenty of tension, conflict and stakes. Which is why I'm so excited to invite you to join my four day course writing Tension, Creating Tension, Conflict and Stakes in youn Story. It starts on October 13th. My favorite part about this class is that there are formulas. Yes, formulas for tension, for conflict, for stakes. And for the first time ever, we're having two optional interactive components, including a query letter studio and live critiques of select first pages I'm super excited about this new format because I've seen it yield results in writers works and it works for writers of any genre as long as you're serious about about improving your work. So if you're ready to take your writing to the next level, join me for this four day course. Don't worry if you can't attend live, the sessions will be recorded. For more information, check out my bio on Instagram or the podcast's website. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.
- [43:38]
Bianca Murray
Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader matchup?
- [43:42]
Podcast Host / Moderator
Or have you signed up before but.
- [43:44]
Bianca Murray
Haven'T as yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one of the year, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs. Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for the 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 2nd of November November, with the matchup emails going out on the 3rd of November. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and look for the Beta Reader Matchup tab. Please spread the word Even if you aren't signing up this time. The more writers we have registered, the better the matches will be, which means you'll be paying it forward to your fellow authors.