Using the 'Micro to Macro' Hack

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Episode: Using the 'Micro to Macro' Hack
Release Date: March 6, 2025
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Waters, and CeCe Lyra

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Introduction to "Books with Hooks"

In this episode of "The Shit No One Tells You About Writing," host Bianca Marais is joined by her cohosts, literary agents Carly Waters and CeCe Lyra from P.S. Literary Agency. The trio dives into their beloved segment, "Books with Hooks," where they read and critique query letters and opening pages submitted by aspiring authors. This segment is a treasure trove of insights for emerging writers looking to refine their craft and navigate the publishing landscape.

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Critique 1: The Cat with the Silver Eyes by Julie Packer Sams

Timestamp: [02:43] – [10:30]

Plot Summary

Carly Waters introduces "The Cat with the Silver Eyes," a 74,000-word upper middle-grade fantasy novel. She describes it as a blend of the found-family vibe from Kalyn Josephson's Ravenfall and the hidden magical world reminiscent of Rebecca Mix's The Mossheart's Promise. The story follows Charlotte, a kitten who, after surviving the streets, discovers her magic and the promise of family. When her magic attracts the predatory owl Crier, Charlotte must protect her kittens and navigate a secret magical society to save them from impending doom.

Notable Description:

“Imagine if the rose bush in The Secret of NIMH led to a vast magical animal society hidden in plain sight.” — Carly Waters [03:02]

Agent Critique

Carly begins her critique by noting the novel's length and genre, commending the interactive elements such as the author's website and serialized web chronicles. However, she raises concerns about the query letter's clarity regarding plot versus character background:

“I always wonder sometimes when we get too much of this, I don't actually know where the book begins or where the inciting incident is...” — Carly Waters [05:17]

She questions the specificity of the stakes and the portrayal of the antagonist, Crier, suggesting that more detailed motivations could enhance reader engagement.

CeCe Lyra builds upon Carly's feedback, emphasizing the need to streamline the query letter:

“I think the first plot paragraph, I think that basically needs to go. You want to edit it down to, like, one sentence, maybe two.” — CeCe Lyra [09:07]

She highlights issues such as vague references and the need for clearer connections between characters and plot points, ensuring that the stakes feel immediate and relatable to middle-grade readers.

Key Takeaway:
Both agents appreciate the world-building and emotional core but advise tightening the query to focus more on the plot's inciting incidents and clarifying character motivations to better engage potential readers and agents.

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Critique 2: Cass Collins Can't See the Future by Redacted

Timestamp: [19:50] – [34:23]

Plot Summary

Bianca Murray presents "Cass Collins Can't See the Future," an 80,000-word young adult speculative novel that intertwines themes of friendship and apocalypse with a modern retelling of Homer's Odyssey. Fifteen-year-old Cass Collins grapples with his mother's unexpected death and discovers he has premonitory visions after a lightning strike. These visions escalate from minor events to the catastrophic eruption of the Valis Caldera, a nearby supervolcano. As Cass and his friend Phil Byrd race against time to prevent the apocalypse, they contend with Alexandra, a relentless antagonist determined to capture Cass.

Notable Description:

“With the loyal yet unpredictable Phil by his side, Cass steals a truck to race across state lines to fulfill his vision...” — Carly Waters [05:14]

Agent Critique

Carly Waters commends the synthesis of the protagonist's personal struggles with the broader apocalyptic stakes, introducing the 'Micro to Macro' hack effectively:

“You've done it perfectly when it comes to the antagonistic forces. What's the macro? The macro is the volcano is going to erupt. The world's going to end. That's a macro thing. What's the micro? The micro is the horrible neighbor, Alexandra.” — Carly Waters [22:39]

She suggests expanding the stakes beyond the global catastrophe by integrating personal, relatable elements that anchor the story emotionally. For instance, introducing a personal vulnerability or a secondary goal can make the high-stakes plot more digestible and engaging for readers.

CeCe Lyra echoes Carly's sentiments and adds nuanced feedback on character development and plot clarity:

“I think you need to contextualize 'End of the World' for this character and this story, because that changes things, I think, quite a bit.” — Carly Waters [25:07]

She encourages the author to delve deeper into Cass's emotional landscape and explore the ramifications of his mother's death on his motivations and actions. CeCe emphasizes the importance of balancing the grand scale of the apocalypse with the intimate, personal journey of the protagonist.

Key Takeaway:
The agents recognize the novel's potential in blending personal grief with global threats. They advise enhancing character depth and contextualizing the apocalyptic events to create a more compelling and emotionally resonant narrative.

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Conclusion and Key Insights

Throughout the "Books with Hooks" segment, Bianca, Carly, and CeCe provide invaluable feedback that underscores the importance of clarity, emotional depth, and strategic plot structuring in crafting compelling query letters and opening pages. Their critiques highlight the delicate balance between showcasing a story's unique elements and ensuring that the core narrative remains accessible and engaging to potential readers and agents alike.

Notable Quote on Writing Philosophy:

“Present tense always gives that immediacy, which we sometimes need to really get the reader on the pages dragged along with the characters and really attached to them straight away.” — Bianca Murray [17:16]

This episode serves as a masterclass in refining writing techniques, particularly the 'Micro to Macro' hack, which effectively ties personal stakes to broader conflicts, enhancing both character development and plot progression.

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For aspiring writers, this episode is a must-listen, offering practical advice, honest critiques, and the experienced perspectives of industry professionals. Whether you're polishing your query letter or honing the opening of your manuscript, the insights shared in this episode of "The Shit No One Tells You About Writing" are invaluable steps toward publishing success.

Transcript

[Cece Lira]

Hello from cc. I'm so excited to announce an all new class called Starting It Right which is all about how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. Now this is going to be a four day class so come prepared to take lots of notes. We'll cover the different types of beginnings and how to choose the best one for your story, how to frame your inciting incident in a compelling way, common mistakes writers make when starting a story, how how to balance exposition and mystery, how to make readers connect with your protagonist and how to make the reader want to turn to the next chapter and so much more. And guess what? For the first time ever, there will be an interactive component to my class. Everyone who is registered will have the option of sending in the opening scene of their work for a chance to be critiqued during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend and there are limited spots, so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend one or more live sessions because the recording will be sent to everyone who is registered. This class will begin on March 20th and like I said, will go on for four days. For more details, check out the link in my bio on Instagram. I hope to see you there.

[Bianca Murray]

Would you like to do some good in the world while also standing in line to win amazing literary prizes? Of course you would. I'm hosting a fundraiser for a cause that's close to my heart, which is Literacy in South Africa. The Masana Library Project aims to make the future of South African learners brighter by improving their education and supplying a South African high school with the kind of basic resources that we take for granted in North America. Of course, there are a host of amazing literary prizes up for grabs if you donate to this wonderful cause. They include developmental edits, coaching packages, manuscript critiques, and so much more. To learn more about the cause as well as the prizes and our brilliant and generous sponsors, head to Biancamarae.com and go to the fundraiser tab. Entries close at 8am Eastern Time on 10 April, after which the lucky winners will be announced. Hi there and welcome to our show, the no one tells you about writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency. Hi everyone, welcome back to another Books with Hooks segment. As per usual, we are diving straight in. Kali, please kick us off.

[Carly Waters]

Dear Tisnatyaw, I am a devoted listener.

[Cece Lira]

And substack subscriber to the Tisnatya.

[Carly Waters]

I can't tell you how much of.

[Cece Lira]

A gift the podcast and the substack are for all of us fledgling authors. I know neither of you represent middle.

[Carly Waters]

Grade, but but you've talked a few.

[Cece Lira]

Times on the podcast about adding in some less discussed genre reviews, and I.

[Carly Waters]

Thought if you never ask, the answer is always no. I'm excited to share.

[Cece Lira]

The Cat with the silver eyes a 74,000 word upper middle grade fantasy.

[Carly Waters]

It offers the found family vibe of Kalyn Josephson's Ravenfall in the hidden world of Rebecca Mix's the Moss Heart's Promise.

[Cece Lira]

Imagine if the rose bush in the Secret of NIMH led to a vast magical animal society hidden in plain sight. Charlotte was a kitten the last time she was on the streets, oblivious to everything but her empty belly and the rush of magic in her paws. She's older now and knows the promise of family can snare a lonely heart.

[Carly Waters]

She spent too long recruiting other magical animals. For Crier, an owl with dark allegiances, it seems like a good deal when.

[Cece Lira]

She was a starving stray, but her magic has grown and since he's revealed himself as a power hungry predator, she's no longer playing his games.

[Carly Waters]

She's got kittens to think about and.

[Cece Lira]

Crier's world is no place for them. Now she's on the run, desperate to fade into suburbia. But Crier's talons are long and when her kittens vanish, she discovered he isn't.

[Carly Waters]

Just recruiting, he's sacrificing.

[Cece Lira]

Appalled, she vows to save her kittens from Crier's cruelty. Swept into a magical world of secret agents, unlikely prophets, hidden cities, and strange.

[Carly Waters]

Allies, she realizes Crier's plan could topple.

[Cece Lira]

The careful balance the animal underworld relies on. Charlotte's veins run with ancient magic that can save them. But her connection to Crier threatens to.

[Carly Waters]

Destroy the new life she's building.

[Cece Lira]

She must trust her magic or risk losing her kittens and the only real.

[Carly Waters]

Family she's ever known.

[Cece Lira]

This is a standalone book with series potential. As the VP and longtime foster for a non profit animal rescue, the heartbreak of lost animals led me to develop a fantasy world where missing animals are secret agents on missions.

[Carly Waters]

I have built an interactive zone at.

[Cece Lira]

Www.Jpacker sams.com where readers can dive deeper.

[Carly Waters]

Into the secret animal world, including a serialized web chronicle that is separate but an interrelated story, an Instagram feed filled.

[Cece Lira]

With whiskers and toe beans, both neurodivergent and queer. I'm an active member of PNWA and scbwi. I have included the first five pages below. Thank you for considering my submission. I look forward to hearing from you. Julie Packer. Sams.

[Bianca Murray]

Awesome. Carly. Thank you. Okay, can you give us word count there and then your take on that?

[Carly Waters]

Okay, so this one clocked in at 379.

[Cece Lira]

Thank you to Julie for including that in your pitch.

[Carly Waters]

So we had it.

[Cece Lira]

Okie dokie.

[Carly Waters]

So yes, we don't do a lot of middle grade. So I have personally started reading a bit more in middle grade because my children are coming of age and obviously.

[Cece Lira]

I like to read to them at.

[Carly Waters]

Night as a bookish mother does. So we're starting to read a little bit more middle grade and it's a very Fun category. Okay, so 74,000 words. It feels a bit longish. But to be honest with you, like.

[Cece Lira]

There are definitely some middle grade books.

[Carly Waters]

Where the point isn't that they're chapter books. The point is that they're longer and they're kind of in depth information fantasy and have a whole world. So I think it's totally doable. I don't think that would scare anybody off. But as you guys know, neither middle grade nor fantasy are my primary categories. But that's just my take. I did look up the two comps because I am again not as familiar with this category. But they're both looked great. They're right in category. So everything like, you know, for Ravenfall and the Mossheart's Promise were both check checks for me. The Secret of NIMH. This book, I think it came out in the 80s or 90s, so this was a little bit older. I have a feeling this is kind of like a wink, wink, nod, nod to like probably the book that really inspired you and people that read a lot of fantasy would know that. I felt like probably not necessary, but again, not my specialty. So if that's a wink, wink, nod, nod to something in your category, then I can totally respect that. But I think your other comps looked really strong, so you're covered there. Okay, so I felt like the first paragraph of the body paragraph was a lot of character background, not necessarily plot of the book. And I always understand when we're talking about fantasy there's a certain amount of world building that has to be done and things we kind of have to understand. But again, I always wonder sometimes when we get too much of this, I don't actually know where the book begins or where the inciting incident is because I'm like, is this just giving me the overview of the world or you know, is this kind of what's happening in the actual plot itself. Okay, now, the kittens piece, I had to read it a few times to figure out, like, are these her own baby kittens or these are just, like, kittens in general? Obviously came to the conclusion here that they are her kittens. And so, you know, I'm getting the whole, like, mother's rage thing where you're like, I want to protect my children. These are my babies. All of that made sense.

[Cece Lira]

I got a little worried when you.

[Carly Waters]

Said he's sacrificing, meaning, like, you know, Cece, cover your ears. Is he harming, physically harming the kittens? That's obviously very sad and scary, right? Especially for you, for adults, let alone our little middle grade friends. So, yeah, a little bit scary there. But again, if I'm misreading that, just make sure that you're kind of correcting that in any edits that you do. One of the things I didn't fully understand was, you know, are they being taken from the real, real world? Are they transported somewhere else? Is this like a portal novel where we're like, we're in our world and then we're off to some else? Because it says, you know, this. This kind of world is potentially like humming underneath of our world. But, yeah, I guess I just wanted to know if it was like a portal novel where there's the. The border kind of between our two worlds, like a Lion, Witch in the.

[Cece Lira]

Wardrobe type of situation.

[Carly Waters]

I wasn't really clear on that. Okay, so a few things here about my take. You know, because middle grade isn't necessarily my agent thing, because fantasy isn't my agent thing. I'm trying to figure out, like, why I'm not feeling stronger about what's at stake here, because obviously, like, a mother's love is a really strong st. Anything where it's like, we have to save the world again is a strong stake in losing your own children. These kittens to an evil enterprise is a problem, but I'm wondering if it's because, like, they're. They're not personified with names. They're just like the kittens. And I don't. Or maybe it's just, again, I'm the anthropomorphism of it, you know, isn't something that I'm personally connecting with. Yeah. So I don't know. I think I'm missing something here. But again, I don't know if this is a me thing or whether there's a lot more work to be done in the actual pitch because obviously, anthropomorphic characters are very common in children's literature and have been since the beginning of time. But I think we're just, like, generalizing a bit. So I don't know if we need to name the kittens, give them names, or figure out. I don't know, because they are very vulnerable.

[Cece Lira]

Right.

[Carly Waters]

So, again, I just can't figure out.

[Cece Lira]

What I'm missing here about the stakes.

[Carly Waters]

But again, it could just be the whole fantasy isn't for me thing, and I'm having a bit of a trouble connecting more deeply to it. But I do think there's something here because I do think kids love reading about animals and love Animal World. So I think those are two check marks in favor of it.

[Bianca Murray]

Thank you, Carly. I don't know if it'll help to say to save her babies. I mean, we know they're kittens. I don't know if that makes that connection. They're stronger. I'm not sure. Cece, we're going to hand it across to you now. What do you think?

[Carly Waters]

So, as our listeners can imagine, this was really hard for me because the baby animals. Right. And I do think that you did a really amazing job with the second paragraph where you laid out the story beats. I understand what happens, what the journey is, what's at stake. And because you did such a good job, like, the stakes are hard for me to read about, but, you know, that's a me problem. That's not a you problem. You don't have to worry about that. I will say that the first plot paragraph, I think that basically needs to go. You want to edit it down to, like, one sentence, maybe two. There's a lot of information we don't need to. Carly's point about the backstory, which I 100% agree with. And I'll also add, like, it's not just that it's backstory, it's vague things like the promise of family can snare a lonely heart. I don't even know what that means. It's probably a really insightful line once we get to know the characters and once we're in the story, but it just doesn't belong in the pitch. So I would remove that. Yeah, those are my thoughts.

[Bianca Murray]

Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, will you read the pages for us, please?

[Cece Lira]

All right, so here's our summary. We have chapter one, Charlotte hitches a ride.

[Carly Waters]

Charlotte is our cat character.

[Cece Lira]

Just a reminder to everybody.

[Carly Waters]

Okay, so we start with Charlotte, our cat.

[Cece Lira]

She is talking about running through plans in her mind.

[Carly Waters]

She's very nervous she has to get something right. And she is looking at a human.

[Cece Lira]

Trying to figure out some sort of human match.

[Carly Waters]

And it's kind of vague on purpose. That's why I'm being vague in this description. So she's vaguely deciding which human to approach. There's some sort of kind of vacation cabin situation, and she's picking which human. She decides on the human that she needs to approach because she has a problem, and this human will help her solve the problem. And we start to get the idea that there is some magic that this cat, Charlotte can use to connect with this human. And that way she says, tying the mental laces together, you know, again, some.

[Cece Lira]

Some mind connection that she's able to.

[Carly Waters]

Do because she needs this human to come with her. Because we find out that her kittens are in the woods. And so she's trying to get this.

[Cece Lira]

Human to come with her so that they can find the.

[Carly Waters]

The human can kind of come and discover the kittens and then bring them to safety and are. Cat character realizes is very vulnerable to have to need a human for something. But she's trying to keep her kitten safe, and she feels good about the human she chose. So the human collects the kittens, collects Charlotte, and takes them to somewhere safe.

[Bianca Murray]

Okay, Carly, thank you. What was your take on them?

[Carly Waters]

All right, so I really love these pages. I will say I. One thing I found a little bit odd was that, like, again, I think it's this anthropomorphic thing. Like, our cat character is called Charlotte, and it's like a very human name. So I'm like, I don't know if this cat name is like, more of a cat or. The point is that we are supposed to imagine this cat as more of a person. Again, I don't want to get into a thesis about anthropomorphic characters in fiction, but I think there's a little bit of layers here.

[Cece Lira]

And I would rather.

[Carly Waters]

I would prefer a cat name for a cat and not a human name for this cat. But anyway, I think the writing's really good. You know, I'll read to the first paragraph. Charlotte went over the plan in her.

[Cece Lira]

Mind for the hundredth time.

[Carly Waters]

She would miss the towering pines and breathy ocean breezes.

[Cece Lira]

But she couldn't stay here forever. The weather was turning and she had hidden long enough.

[Carly Waters]

So, like, right. Right away, we were like, okay, there's something curious here. She's hiding from something. What is it? I felt like it was very tastefully done and there's a good amount of tension. Right. There's Something she wants to get right. And what is it that she wants to get right? I think I was definitely curious when, you know, she's trying to connect with this human. I was like, okay, well, how is her magic going to show up and. Or is the human going to run away, be like, why is this cat talking to me? But it ended up being, like a mind reading thing, so all of it made sense. Sense. Like, I think you spent a lot of time thinking about your world, which I can completely appreciate because I think you did a really good job here. Yeah. And I felt like there was something at stake.

[Cece Lira]

Right.

[Carly Waters]

That this mom Charlotte cat lady had to make sure her kittens were safe, and I was on board for it.

[Bianca Murray]

Great, Kali, thanks so much. Okay, now we're going to hand it across to Cece.

[Carly Waters]

I really like the pages too. I do think there's opportunity to go a little deeper and just make them even stronger. I'll give you some suggestions. So, first of all, I'd love some curiosity seeds planted before we find out that what she's like, who she's leading the woman to are the kittens. I'd like some curiosity seeds so I can be like, oh, you know, I wonder what this very specific curiosity seed is indicating? And then we go, oh, they're kittens. Like, I think you can leverage that. I also think that when we first find out that she's looking for a person, I initially thought she was still scanning for just any person. And then we kind of go back in time to get context on how she had previously, before the scene began, picked a specific person. And I. It took me a while to understand that, and I had to read it twice. It felt jarring to me. So I don't think we need the background. I think cut the background, add it later, or start earlier, if that's the issue. But you really don't want, especially in middle grade, to have confusion when it comes to what is happening now and what is she remembering? It's just not. It's something that really removes the reader from the pages. It's one of those very common first page mistakes. Right. Like, I'm like, am I insane? Is this a flashback? Is this context? Is this backstory? Like, it can really, really get in the way of the reader's brain. I did eventually understand, but again, a lot of people just stop reading once they start feeling confused, and you don't want that to happen to you. I also think that the fact that she's calling the human the person is not believable. Or effective. If I am a cat, I'm picturing him a cat. Now, if I am a cat, I have classifications and categorizations and nicknames for people. We see this all the time in fiction. When someone is referring to a person whose name they don't know, they call them glasses or red hair or big nose or whatever, right? So I want her to have a name for this lady. I want the cat to give this person a name, because I think that that would be cute and I think that it would make the references to the person less generic. I also think that there were various moments in which the cat's mind, the cat's psyche, Charlotte's psyche could have zoomed out to offer specific socio emotional insights. For example, there's a line that reads, charlotte meowed in a way she hoped was friendly. So she's obviously meowed multiple times before. Is this her very best friendly meow? Is this one that backfired previous? Is this one that she spent a lot of time practicing? Is this particularly effective on women? Like, I just wanted a little bit more detail that was so unique to her and made me feel like she was a real character, not just someone who started existing the second you started writing her, but rather has existed for a very long time before. Here's another example. So there's a line that reads, please. She thought, please let this work in references to her magic. She's literally saying, please let my magic work. Okay, so why is she worried? You know, is she. Is it because her magic has failed her in the past? Does it typically fail her when she's tired? Is she tired today? That makes me curious. Why is she tired today? Is it harder on a full moon? Like, what are the specific fears she has? You know, like, why does she think this magic might not work? How often does it work? Is it because of a threat? Is it because of the mean owl? You know, is she like, oh, if the owl is currently flying, my magic might not be working. I don't know what it could be, but I really want just more specificity in terms of her thoughts framed in a way that will make me curious. I also had a thought, and I don't know why I had this thought, okay? Like, sometimes I have ideas about pages and I can't explain them. 90% of the time. I have, like, specific notes and here's my reasoning. Sometimes I just have ideas and I do not know why. This is one of those times. I think you should write this in the present tense. Think it's going to sound better. I started reading it in the present tense in my head. Sounded better. I think you should do it.

[Bianca Murray]

Amazing. Cece. Yeah, present tense always gives that immediacy, which we sometimes need to really get the reader on the pages dragged along with the characters and really attached to them straight away. Something as well. You know, in terms of pov, the cat would look at a human and be like, so weird they don't have a tail or so weird they wear material or clothes or something. So always frame the POV on that. So instead of the person, the tailless wife, the one without a tail with the skirt or something like that. So make sure that that POV is always super specific to that kind of character. Right. Carly and Cece, thank you so much for that. Before we go to our next critique, we can have a quick word from our sponsors.

[Cece Lira]

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[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Lira]

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[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Lira]

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[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Lira]

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[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Lira]

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[Carly Waters]

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[Cece Lira]

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[Bianca Murray]

Okay right. Cece, can you please read us the next query?

[Carly Waters]

Let's do this. Dear Cece and Carly, thank you so much for the opportunity to submit to bookswithooks. I'm a massive fan of the podcast and have learned so much from you, which I hope you see reflected in my query. Plus five without this paragraph, my letter is 385 words Cass Collins can't See the Future A contemporary young adult speculative novel, complete at 80,000 words, combines the friendship tested by the threat of an apocalypse of Katie Henry's let's call It a Doomsday with a retelling of the epic Journey of Homer's Odyssey. All 15 year old Cass Collins wants when he arrives in Homer, Arizona, is to get through the remainder of his freshman year of high school as invisibly as possible while he heals from his mom's unexpected death. Immediately, though, his grandmother Tiff involves him in a war with her neighbor and Cass is struck by lightning while felling a flagpole in the neighbor's yard. The lightning strike leaves Cas skin striped with scars that are anything but invisible and worse, with premonitory visions. At first, the visions concern small events. Tiff's going to need dental work. There'll be a sub in First Period Science and the Enemy neighbor Alexandra will watch him from a darkened alley. But when his visions start coming true, Cas must come to terms with the uncomfortable fact that he's able to see the future. Worst of all, his latest vision involves the Valis caldera, a nearby supervolcano, erupting. By all accounts, this should mean the end of the world. Except Cas sees something else himself and his new friend Phil Byrd stopping it. With the loyal yet unpredictable Phil by his side, Cas steals a truck to race across state lines to fulfill his vision, although neither friend knows exactly how they're supposed to do it. Phil has an annoying tendency to make friends along the way, which only delay them from their destination. All the while they are pursued by Alexandra, who seems to know about CA's visions and whose inexhaustible determination to capture him is deeper rooted than just punishing the kid who wrecked her flagpole. Cas and Phil must make it to the Caldera and figure out how to prevent the end of the world before Alexandra catches up to them. I'm an 8th grade ELA teacher at a Title 1 school on the US Mexico border. I have my bachelor's degree in English from Arizona State University, and I live in a 1918 kit house with my husband and our three rescue Chihuahuas. Thank you for your time and consideration. Redacted.

[Bianca Murray]

Thank you, Cece. Okay, what was your take on that?

[Carly Waters]

I think you need one more ya cost comp. You know, like, you can say this is a retelling of the Odyssey. You do need the. The, by the way, it's a very minor thing, but just so you know. But then you also have to add the comps. Like two comps. You know, like you have one. One YA comp. But I think. I think you have to have two. A small thing, but like he's having premonitory visions. And then you say, oh, his visions are coming true. But like, that's what premonitory means, you know? Or else they would just be weird dreams. So you don't need to explain that. Like, we already understand that. And you can tighten your plot paragraph with that information. I think you've done a great job at synthesizing your story in a really compelling way. Like, I'm clear on the stakes. I do wonder if it makes sense to add one more layer to the stakes. I'll explain what I mean. So there's a storytelling hack called micro to macro, and it works both for antagonistic forces and for heroes. Goals, stakes. So you ha. You've done it perfectly when it comes to the antagonistic forces. What's the macro? The macro is the volcano is going to erupt. The world's going to end. That's a macro thing. What's the micro? The micro is the horrible neighbor, Alexandra. Right. So you have. You've done that. You followed the hack and it's brilliant. But when it comes to the goals stakes, it's just the end of the world that he's trying to prevent. Which I know sounds ridiculous, just the end of the world, but actually it's too big. It's too big for the reader's brain. A reader's brain will attach itself, will imprint itself to a smaller innocent that you're trying to save. A vulnerable that you're trying to protect. Right. So I would almost think about your story as a whole and zoom out and consider, like, there's a reason why so many stories have a little sister that the protagonist is trying to rescue, or, you know, parents who. Who supposedly have more power than you do, but they're not in on what's happening. So you have to rescue your parents or a child. You might want to leverage that micro to macro when it comes to the stakes and when it comes to the goal as well, because right now it is like the end of the world. I don't understand how one volcano is going to lead to the end of the world. This is one volcano. Right. But maybe there's an explanation and that's cool. Even if it's like the end of the town, that's still a macro thing. So I would take a look at that and maybe revise. I also really love your references to the three rescue Chihuahuas. That's really cute.

[Bianca Murray]

Thank you, Cece. Okay, Kali, you know, this ended up.

[Carly Waters]

Not being a problem once I got to the pages, but there was definitely a lot of setup in that first body paragraph. And like, I said this just on the last query, but I always worried that we spend so much time talking about the world that I don't know when the inciting incident is. You find out in the pages that we. We are often running on the plot very quickly, which is great, but, you know, there's just a lot here. And I want to just talk about the mother's death for a second. So this is obviously a huge part of the story, right? Because that's the reason he goes to live with his grandmother. The reason, obviously, he's having these big emotional, like, gaps in his heart, obviously, like, you know, dealing with this. This grief. And then we don't really talk about the parents at all for the next two paragraphs. And I just wonder. And again, this might. I don't know if that's anything to do with the story. Again, the mother passed away, but we find on the pages that the father, presumably, he's just never met them. We don't know who the father is. I'm wondering if the father comes back somehow. I don't know. It just felt like, you know, dealing with this huge heart wound. Right. Of dealing with the mother's death. And then, like, the parents stuff never really comes back. And then we obviously talk about Tiff, who's the grandmother that he lives with, but then again, he's off and running with his friend. So I don't know, it just felt like a bit of. I don't know if it's like loose Ends necessarily. But just flagging that for you, it's potentially some loose ends on the parenting Tiff angle. Do they need to come back?

[Cece Lira]

We'll see.

[Carly Waters]

The end of the world definitely felt like melodramatic to me. Like, it's one thing again for it to be the end of the world for a teenager where it's like, oh my God, I did something embarrassing today. It's the end of the world versus, like, again, this volcano is going to ruin me, my town. This volcano is going to destroy planet Earth. These are all very different things. So I think we need to contextualize End of the World for this character and this story, because that changes things, I think, quite a bit. But other than that, it's very interesting. It seems very unique.

[Bianca Murray]

Great Collie. Thank you. Okay, Cece, handing it across to you again, will you tell us what was in those opening pages?

[Carly Waters]

Okay, so we start in scene. The protagonist is getting into a car with the lady from child Safety, feeling numb. There's blank space in his memory, a space shaped like his mom. We have a flashback to losing his mom. We learn that she's dead. We arrive at Tiff's house and he feels so ordinary because everything in this place is colorful and political and just different and extraordinary. So Tiff says the protagonist reminds her of him. Interiority tells us that this him is his dad, a man he's never met. We zoom out to paragraphs about how the years long war between Tiff and the neighbor grounded our protagonist and that that is what led to decisions that changed his life forever.

[Bianca Murray]

Awesome. Okay, so take us through your thoughts on that. Do you feel like they're starting in the right place?

[Carly Waters]

I am not sure. I know for a fact they're not starting in the right way. As a reminder to everyone, I am teaching my new class, starting it right on March 20th. You can look it up on my Instagram and see the link. It is via Zoom. We are meeting for four days and we're going to talk about common mistakes, including the common mistake that I'm going to address now. So we start these pages in scene. I loved it. The first line is genius. I would isolate it. I could tell right away that the lady from child safety didn't know what to do with me. Me, I'm immediately curious, who is this lady from Child safety? I'm immediately immersed in the protagonist's perspective because of the I. And it's an uncomfortable situation because if somebody doesn't know what to do with you and the power imbalance of a Lady from Child Safety that also promises power imbalance. So that works really, really well. So great first line. And we are immersed in scene in the beginning, but then towards the end of the pages, we're zooming out and we're running through time and I'm lost. Like, I thought that this would be the scene of him arriving at his grandmother's house. And for some reason, the author just takes us away from the scene and just goes. And these are all the big picture things that happened. And it's really beautifully written and really insightful. There are some very interesting psychological insights about the motivation that led him to tie himself to this war that his grandmother has. But it doesn't belong in this scene yet. Like, this is the scene of him arriving at his grandma's house, you know, and if that's the scene you want to start your book in, great. Stay there. And if that's not the scene you want to start your book in, that's okay too. But start with a different scene or in a different way. And again, there are many ways to start a book. It doesn't have to be insane. There are many successful books that start with the zooming out method. You know, the Ballerinas is one of them. For example, that prologue is totally zooming out. There's no scene. So I'm not saying you need scene. I am quite partial to scene. I quite like scene. But there are many books I love that don't start with scene. But if you start with scene, close that scene or else it's jarring to the brain. Other notes I have, there's a line at the end of the first page that reads, I wondered if this lady thought I was an idiot, but I didn't really care. I don't want him not to care. Not to care means he's numb. And numb is the worst emotion a protagonist can be feeling at the start of the book. It's actually an absence of emotions. I'd like him to be convincing himself that he doesn't care, but I want clues that deep down he does care. I like that there's a line that reads, the blank space in my memory was shaped like my mom. I don't like that. We immediately get explanation on what that means. The fact that his mom died, how she died, that can be a curiosity seed. If you withhold the explanation for now, we don't need to know right away. We're gonna probably theorize she's dead because he's going to his grandma's house and there's a Lady from Child Safety. By the way, the author doesn't explain who Tiff is, which is genius. And I really like you. Don't go, Tiff. My grandmother. So that was really, really good. We do get explanation on who she is after her name is mentioned in a very subtle and seamless way. That was really well done. Our Substack supporters will be able to see that. I also think that there's a part where. And I mentioned this when I summarize the pages. But he arrives in Homer, right? And there's a line that reads, I'd never realized how incredibly ordinary I was until I landed in Tiff's neighborhood in Home Homer. And I have to say, no, no, no, no, no, no. Cynical Cece is like, no, too fast. Emotional calibration is off. There is nothing about this place that's actually so extraordinary that he would leap to this, Especially not if he's numb. Like, I'm not saying he can't find the place weird, but that's too big of an insight. Like, I am now ordinary, and this place is now extraordinary. It just felt way too forced. So I would definitely revise that. There's also a line that reads that his grandmother, she acted like I was the most extraordinary person in the world. We did not say that. She did not act this way in front of us. Maybe she did, but then can we see that? That would be interesting. I would like to see that. And here's, I think, my biggest note. So I've talked about this before. Imagine that your tension is an orange, okay? And you have an orange. If you want tension to work, you need to squeeze that orange and give us juice, okay? The juice has to be worth the squeeze, okay? There's a line where the grandmother says, I see him in you. And then through interiority, we learn. I knew who she meant. Her son, my dad. A man I'd never meant. And that's it. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Like, you have the best orange. This is a child who has never met his father, who was apparently meeting his paternal grandmother for the first time, and she tells him that he reminds him of his dad. Is this something he's heard before? Has his mom ever said this to him before? Has he dreaded hearing this all his life? Is this a terrible thing to say? Is this a compliment? Has he wondered. He must have wondered, now that his mom is dead, does it land differently? You know, maybe he spent his whole life wanting to know if he was like his dad or not. But now that his mom is gone too, then maybe he's like, well, no, I don't want to be like him anymore. I want to be like her now. I don't know. Something else, I have no idea because I don't know your character. But this, there's just such a golden opportunity here and you're not leveraging it, right? So I absolutely need you to squeeze your orange more. I was just not feeling like you leveraged everything you could in this really interesting setup up. Like, really, really, really interesting. You'll see my notes. There's also a little bit about how I think that you need to keep us just more grounded in time and place. But these are like more minor things that will be easier fixes. And thank you for sharing.

[Bianca Murray]

Thank you, Cece. Before we hand across to Carly, please remember that if you are listening to this episode on the day it comes out on the 6th of March, that these books with hoax critiques will go out on the 11th of March in the paid edition for our substack going out on the 11th of March. So every Tuesday, following the books with hooks that airs on the Thursday, that's when you'll find those books with hooks critiques. Right, Carly handing it across to you.

[Carly Waters]

All right. I was like second guessing myself. Assisi was talking about a couple things, so I had to, like, look carefully through my notes. If you saw me looking very serious.

[Cece Lira]

Those of you who watch us on YouTube.

[Carly Waters]

Okay. So I guess one of the things I'm just was confused about, I guess I should start off by saying I really like the writing. It was very, very well done. And I always hesitate to say, like, we're not starting in the right place when the writing's beautiful because you can get away with a lot when you have really, really good writing. So I definitely want to pat this person on the back before I get into critique mode. Okay. Critique mode. So this person, this child flies from Denver to Tucson.

[Cece Lira]

So we're crossing state lines.

[Carly Waters]

The child safety lady picks him up. So I guess I'm a little bit confused and I don't know that too much about American Child Services or anything like that. I assume this was a state by state run thing. So I guess I'm confused about, like, was there some sort of state run child safety lady, as he calls her in Colorado? And then that person put him on a plane and then he landed in Arizona and then gets picked up by that state lady, then gets driven two hours to his grandmother. So I don't know. I guess I have a lot of questions about, like, this child's journey, and he seems, like, very sad, but also very, like, accepting of the situation. And I'm kind of wondering, like, why didn't Tiff come and get him? Is one of the things I'm wondering, like, if your daughter died and left you a grandson to take care of, why aren't you picking him up? So, I don't know. I guess I just have, like, a lot of logistical questions. And again, good writing. You get away with a lot. Because I had to think really hard about some things because I was definitely taken away with how. How well this was written. But, yeah, so I have some, like, logistical questions about this that left me just a little.

[Cece Lira]

A little bit confused.

[Carly Waters]

And that was kind of it, to be honest with you. Like, I just wrote, like, really, like, this writing, really, like, this paragraph. But other than that, yeah, I have some questions about how he feels about being in the care of child services as a teenager. Maybe he thinks, like, I'm a teenager now. I should be able to handle myself. Even my mom died. I'm alone in this world. He has this very, like, sad, resigned attitude about, like, just, yeah, being taken away. Like, I don't know. Again, trying to put myself in this character's shoes. Like, who paid for this flight? You know, like, because he had to get from one state to another. Does child services pay for that? Does his mom's estate pay for that? Maybe he's worried about him getting to Tiff's house. And, like, Tiff doesn't have a lot of money, maybe. And then it's like, well, am I going to be a burden to Tiff? So anyway, I just have a lot of, like, how does this child feel about the situation? Questions that are definitely masked by how.

[Cece Lira]

Great the writing is.

[Carly Waters]

And so all of everything I'm saying could maybe come on the next page. This person can be like, harley, if I only sent you six pages, you would know all of this. And. Fair point taken. But, yeah, I have logistical questions that, the more I think about it, are not explained away by the really, really good writing.

[Bianca Murray]

All right, thank you, Carly and Cece, as always, for your brilliant insights. Remember, next week we will be having another author interview, and then the week after that, we're back for another Books with Hooks. If you want to submit to that, go to the Shit About Writing. Go to the Books With Hooks tab, and you can submit your submission there. And we look forward to reading it.

[Carly Waters]

It.

[Bianca Murray]

Okay, everybody, bye. See you next week.

[Cece Lira]

A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the fulsome picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at PS Literate Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcast. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our Substack newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more. You can find it@theshitaboutwriting substack.com that's the shit about writing.

[Bianca Murray]

And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.

[Cece Lira]

Hello from cc. I'm so excited to announce an all new class called Starting It Right which is all about how to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. Now this is going to be a four day class so come prepared to take lots of lots of notes. We'll cover the different types of beginnings and how to choose the best one for your story, how to frame your inciting incident in a compelling way, common mistakes writers make when starting a story, how to balance exposition and mystery, how to make readers connect with your protagonist and how to make the reader want to turn to the next chapter and so much more. And guess what? For the first time ever, there will be an interactive component to my class. Everyone who is registered will have the option of sending in the opening scene of their work for a chance to be critiqued during the webinar. Writers of all categories and genres are invited to attend and there are limited spots, so if you're interested, sign up now. And don't worry if you can't attend one or more live sessions because the recording will be sent to everyone who is registered. This class will begin on March 20th and like I said, we'll go on for four days. For more details, check out the link in my bio on Instagram. I hope to see you there.

[Bianca Murray]

Would you like to do some good in the world while also standing in line to win amazing literary prizes? Of course you would. I'm hosting a fundraiser for a cause that's Close to My Heart, which is Literacy in South Africa. The Masana Library Project aims to make the future of South African learners brighter by improving their education and supplying a South African high school with the kind of basic resources that we take for granted in North America. Of course, there are a host of amazing literary prizes up for grabs if you donate to this wonderful cause. They include developmental edits, coaching packages, manuscript critiques, and so much more. To learn more about the cause as well as the prizes and our brilliant and generous sponsors, head to Biancamarae.com and go to the fundraiser tab. Entries close at 8am Eastern Time on 10 April, after which the lucky winners will be announced.